Presidential form of government in Pakistan?

[Gharib Aadmi]

IK needs to groom a successor. Who’s next?

There is no one right now.

Maybe Querishi, or the CM of KPK might be an option. But the best option for PTI is Imran Khan remain head until he dies.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Malaysia started to go Pakistan route as soon as Mahatir put up his boots. Poor guy had to come out of retirement at the age of 90 to set his nation back on the right path.


As soon as IK leaves the scene some descendant of the Sharif or Bhutto clan will emerge who will destroy everything.

Thats why he cant leave anytime soon. He needs to be like Erdogan and ensure he stays in power for a very long time. There is no Plan B for Pakistan right now.

 

[Bewal Express]

IK needs to groom a successor. Who’s next?

For me it's Asad Umar and then Murad Saeed.

 

[last_knight]

IK needs to groom a successor. Who’s next?

Hammad Azhar

 

[Bewal Express]

Hammad Azhar

He comes across well. We need new and honest talent to come through for the Nooras and PPP and PK will develop a Democratic culture based more on policies than crooked family businesses.

 

[Greenstorm]

Thats why he cant leave anytime soon. He needs to be like Erdogan and ensure he stays in power for a very long time. There is no Plan B for Pakistan right now.

He has to introduce presidential system. Only then he will have enough power to implement his vision otherwise he is destined to fail in current setup and his failure will be a catastrophe for the entire nation.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

He has to introduce presidential system. Only then he will have enough power to implement his vision otherwise he is destined to fail in current setup and his failure will be a catastrophe for the entire nation.

You need a constitution change for that, and PTI does not have the numbers for that. Nor will they have that in the next election either, as there is no chance PTI will win in Sindh.

 

[Greenstorm]

You need a constitution change for that, and PTI does not have the numbers for that. Nor will they have that in the next election either, as there is no chance PTI will win in Sindh.

IK should get Bajwa on board and either attain the numbers required using 'traditional' methods or find another way (referendum/Supreme court) to get the job done. This is the golden opportunity. It is rare when COAS and a popular elected PM are on same page. Both IK and Bajwa can do anything.

Once IK goes, there is no other genuine and sincere leader who can rise to power in present system. The crooks will return with even more vengeance.

 

[ahmedzee]

Buzdar aka next Wasim Akram

Too early but I really like Murad Saeed. Just like IK he rose up from ground roots levels, working with the party and not acquiring anything though monarchy like Bilawal. He works hard and is also a good speaker.

 

[Syed1]

Too early but I really like Murad Saeed. Just like IK he rose up from ground roots levels, working with the party and not acquiring anything though monarchy like Bilawal. He works hard and is also a good speaker.

This is going to sound a little off but the bulk of our voter base resides in Central Punjab and they have strong desire to support a 'Punjabi' candidate. Heck Imran Khan is a born and raised Lahori, speaks fluent Punjabi but has struggled to get a foothold in Central Punjab because of his Pashtoon background. Talking about more rural and less educated areas (such as Lahore )


Now a guy like Murad Saeed from Mardan has a very uphill task to get widespread support from Punjab specifically Central Punjab.


If we have proper democracy where people voted for parties on performance and manifesto then PTI could have nominated Murad Saeed as its PM once it attains the requisite number of seats, but in Pakistan you sort of have to declare your PM candidate BEFORE the elections and he is essentially the face of the party.

 

[Bigboii]

Too early but I really like Murad Saeed. Just like IK he rose up from ground roots levels, working with the party and not acquiring anything though monarchy like Bilawal. He works hard and is also a good speaker.

I mean it was a joke but know you told me about Murad Saeed I am kinda impressed tbh but have to disagree with being a good speaker from what I know of him he seemed like a foul mouthed guy but so are literally tons of politicions but I am not gonna hold it against him

Yeah it always makes you feel good when a person go from ground up and that guy is imo more accessible to the people which in turn makes the person accountable

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

IK should get Bajwa on board and either attain the numbers required using 'traditional' methods or find another way (referendum/Supreme court) to get the job done. This is the golden opportunity. It is rare when COAS and a popular elected PM are on same page. Both IK and Bajwa can do anything.

Once IK goes, there is no other genuine and sincere leader who can rise to power in present system. The crooks will return with even more vengeance.

They are on the same page, because Imran Khan decided if you want to keep the army out you need to bring them in. Its not like Imran Khan completely trusts the generals, though Bajwa seems like a decent guy. However Pakistan needs deep economic reform, and that means making unpopular choices. Had he not brought them to the table then it would be difficult to make these reforms, as the opposition would create problems and he would not be sure if the generals would intervene.

Right now he needs to focus on ensuring that he wins in Punjab, KPK, and Karachi in 2023. And trying to be competitive in Sindh and Baluchistan. Hopefully by then the fruits of these reforms is visible to the public, and then he can try to groom someone for succession for 2033.

 

[Greenstorm]

This is going to sound a little off but the bulk of our voter base resides in Central Punjab and they have strong desire to support a 'Punjabi' candidate. Heck Imran Khan is a born and raised Lahori, speaks fluent Punjabi but has struggled to get a foothold in Central Punjab because of his Pashtoon background. Talking about more rural and less educated areas (such as Lahore )


Now a guy like Murad Saeed from Mardan has a very uphill task to get widespread support from Punjab specifically Central Punjab.


If we have proper democracy where people voted for parties on performance and manifesto then PTI could have nominated Murad Saeed as its PM once it attains the requisite number of seats, but in Pakistan you sort of have to declare your PM candidate BEFORE the elections and he is essentially the face of the party.

Imran Khan won his seat in Lahore. He can win in pretty much every constituency in Central Punjab.

This is why need to move towards direct elections. Only then we can bypass all this biradari, zaat paat and halqa siasat that nourishes corrupt local crooks.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This is going to sound a little off but the bulk of our voter base resides in Central Punjab and they have strong desire to support a 'Punjabi' candidate. Heck Imran Khan is a born and raised Lahori, speaks fluent Punjabi but has struggled to get a foothold in Central Punjab because of his Pashtoon background. Talking about more rural and less educated areas (such as Lahore )


Now a guy like Murad Saeed from Mardan has a very uphill task to get widespread support from Punjab specifically Central Punjab.


If we have proper democracy where people voted for parties on performance and manifesto then PTI could have nominated Murad Saeed as its PM once it attains the requisite number of seats, but in Pakistan you sort of have to declare your PM candidate BEFORE the elections and he is essentially the face of the party.

Its more because PML N did a decent job, as compared to other parties, in Central Punjab so they have a huge vote bank there. PTI did way better in 2018 than they did in 2013 in Central Punjab. so maybe depending on how they perform they can take it in 2023.

 

[Syed1]

Imran Khan won his seat in Lahore. He can win in pretty much every constituency in Central Punjab.

This is why need to move towards direct elections. Only then we can bypass all this biradari, zaat paat and halqa siasat that nourishes corrupt local crooks.

The Lahore part was obviously a joke and light hearted banter at our old rival. However, I think IK and Shafqat Mahmood are the only ones who won their seats in Lahore on PTI ticket, and even IK's seat was lost once he gave it up to keep his Mianwali seat.

 

[Syed1]

Its more because PML N did a decent job, as compared to other parties, in Central Punjab so they have a huge vote bank there. PTI did way better in 2018 than they did in 2013 in Central Punjab. so maybe depending on how they perform they can take it in 2023.

Was going through 2018 Sialkot election results. PML-N won ALL National and Punjab assembly seats expect for two PP seats. Only one NA seat there was even a contest on which PTI's Usman Dar lost by less than 1000 votes, I think he got 121k compared to Khawaja Asif 122k. The rest of the seats were no contest. Ab Sialkot mein Noon league ne kaunsi doodh aur shehad ki naddiyan baha di theen. Lahore I understand they have developed, but Sialkot is hardly much to write about.

 

[Greenstorm]

They are on the same page, because Imran Khan decided if you want to keep the army out you need to bring them in. Its not like Imran Khan completely trusts the generals, though Bajwa seems like a decent guy. However Pakistan needs deep economic reform, and that means making unpopular choices. Had he not brought them to the table then it would be difficult to make these reforms, as the opposition would create problems and he would not be sure if the generals would intervene.

Right now he needs to focus on ensuring that he wins in Punjab, KPK, and Karachi in 2023. And trying to be competitive in Sindh and Baluchistan. Hopefully by then the fruits of these reforms is visible to the public, and then he can try to groom someone for succession for 2033.

No, they are on the same page because of two reasons,

1. WOT has had a sobering effect on military, the institution has evolved and they have realized that
country cannot cope with anymore adventures.
2. After a long time, there is a popular, non corrupt and an honest patriot leading this country whose
vision for the country is not to dissimilar to that of military's.

PTI cannot win in South Punjab let alone central Punjab and Sindh without the support of military. JT was used as a front man in 2018 to lure those corrupt feudals of South Punjab and PML-Q crooks towards PTI.
Presence of these many crooks in the system is the reason why he cannot implement his vision. Bajwa will retire in 2022 (next COAS may not be as nice) and JT has already been sidelined. IK won't be able to gain majority on his own in 2023 and even if he does, his hands will be tied like they are now. You cannot bring reforms if PML-Q, MQM, feudal lotay of South-Central Punjab and Sindh are your allies.

This whole system needs to go and now.

.: Quite clearly we are going off topic so I request mods to kindly merge this discussion to any relevant thread. Thanks.

 

[Greenstorm]

In addition, under a US presidential system the executive and legislature are formally separated where under the parliamentary system, there is a fusion of the two branches. Hence, the vast majority of the legislation passed in parliamentary systems actually comes from the executive. In the US on the other hand, it is the Congress that is proposing most of the legislation. In the US considerable executive efforts are made to lobby and persuade the legislature. In Pakistan where politics is often a zero-sum game, where the army is not a silent bystander, there are obvious dangers here.

Secondly, members would still have to be elected to the National Assembly under a US type presidential system. Many often lament the persistent presence of ‘electables’ in the lower house. ’Electables’ is short-hand for those ‘career’ or ‘professional’ politicians that possess financial and social capital that enables them to wield influence in localities. There are a variety of sources upon which their social networks and rootedness in local politics may derive from: economic power based on extensive land holdings; potential to capitalise on social bonds (‘biraderi’); ability to work though pir-murid networks; a ‘proven’ track record in being able to ‘deliver’ and ‘get things done’ on local development; being a member of a dynastic political family.

In a system where people are voting for a president and separately for a local representative in the National Assembly, I think it is quite possible that local factors in election contests for the latter will in fact be enhanced.

Thirdly, what none of this addresses is the weakness of parties as institutions. Party machines in Pakistan have historically been associated with decision making that is highly centralised and where authority flows less from formal party structures than charismatic leaders - this was the case with Jinnah, Bhutto and now Imran Khan. The progress a politician can make within the three major parties today depends on proximity and patronage of the top leadership. On the local level party infrastructure remains weak. Hence the reliance on local ‘electables’ rather than doing the much harder work of institutionalising popular enthusiasm and support by building firm organisational foundations stretching all the way to the local level. Switching to a presidential system does nothing to resolve this.

Why do we need functioning political parties in the first place ? All they are good for is creating divisions and factions in our society. You have yourself mentioned that Pakistanis are more drawn towards charismatic individuals which indicates that we do not need well structured political parties and explains that why attempts in that direction have failed.

And it is not wise to implement the entire US presidential system as it is in Pakistan. We have tried to implement one foreign system and it has not worked. We must improvise according to our realities.

 

[IMMY69]

Presidential system where the corrupt mafia leaders can give presidential pardons to the looters?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Was going through 2018 Sialkot election results. PML-N won ALL National and Punjab assembly seats expect for two PP seats. Only one NA seat there was even a contest on which PTI's Usman Dar lost by less than 1000 votes, I think he got 121k compared to Khawaja Asif 122k. The rest of the seats were no contest. Ab Sialkot mein Noon league ne kaunsi doodh aur shehad ki naddiyan baha di theen. Lahore I understand they have developed, but Sialkot is hardly much to write about.

Sialkot is a manufacturing hub in Pakistan. So the people of Sialkot give credit to PML N for that.

 

[last_knight]

Sialkot is a manufacturing hub in Pakistan. So the people of Sialkot give credit to PML N for that.

No we don't.
First of all , Ticket holders changed so many times that voters gave up on the circus.

Secondly, Eventual contestants had two things, Overconfidence and Shortage of time, that made them skip covering 30-40% areas of constituencies.

 

[ahmedzee]

I mean it was a joke but know you told me about Murad Saeed I am kinda impressed tbh but have to disagree with being a good speaker from what I know of him he seemed like a foul mouthed guy but so are literally tons of politicions but I am not gonna hold it against him

Yeah it always makes you feel good when a person go from ground up and that guy is imo more accessible to the people which in turn makes the person accountable

He started working from local govt levels, grass roots levels. He is indeed loud-mouthed during the assembly, but otherwise he is quite a good speaker (if you ever heard him talk outside the NA).

 

[Syed1]

Even sane voices in India are now starting to call for presidential form of government. Our countries have been systematically kept colonized by this failed British system. I think India is far too diverse for a presidential form of government, but we desperately need to implement it in our country.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why it is time for India to adopt the presidential form of government: the parliamentary system, with legislators elected not to legislate but to form the executive, has failed India:<a href="https://t.co/Yx9btaYYJu">https://t.co/Yx9btaYYJu</a></p>— Shashi Tharoor (@ShashiTharoor) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShashiTharoor/status/1286880895375298560?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Even sane voices in India are now starting to call for presidential form of government. Our countries have been systematically kept colonized by this failed British system. I think India is far too diverse for a presidential form of government, but we desperately need to implement it in our country.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why it is time for India to adopt the presidential form of government: the parliamentary system, with legislators elected not to legislate but to form the executive, has failed India:<a href="https://t.co/Yx9btaYYJu">https://t.co/Yx9btaYYJu</a></p>— Shashi Tharoor (@ShashiTharoor) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShashiTharoor/status/1286880895375298560?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Shashi Tharoor is right but I wouldn’t go around giving Modi any ideas ngl

 

[Syed1]

Shashi Tharoor is right but I wouldn’t go around giving Modi any ideas ngl

Actually if true presidential form is implemented Modi might never become President as he does not have much support in South. That is why I said India is too diverse to have presidential form of government since no one guy would be acceptable to ALL of India. Anyways that is their problem, in Pakistani context we absolutely need presidential form of government. It is a matter of our survival. Parliament is just a useless body only meant to serve the interests of each party's head.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Actually if true presidential form is implemented Modi might never become President as he does not have much support in South. That is why I said India is too diverse to have presidential form of government since no one guy would be acceptable to ALL of India. Anyways that is their problem, in Pakistani context we absolutely need presidential form of government. It is a matter of our survival. Parliament is just a useless body only meant to serve the interests of each party's head.

The presidential system has benefits but look at the drawbacks. First of all you need a constitutional change. So right now its not possible in Sindh and Baluchistan, and maybe even KPK. Second even if you get a constitutional change, alot of people in the smaller provinces will play Sindh, Baloch, Pashtun card, and blame Punjab and Army. The country does not need that headache.

Also Imran Khan has bypassed the weakness of the parliamentary system to a certain degree, by appointing advisors instead of MNA's to various different positions.

There are successful countries with a presidential system and parliamentary system. And there are unsuccessful countries with those systems. The system is not the problem, the leaders are.

 

[Syed1]

The presidential system has benefits but look at the drawbacks. First of all you need a constitutional change. So right now its not possible in Sindh and Baluchistan, and maybe even KPK. Second even if you get a constitutional change, alot of people in the smaller provinces will play Sindh, Baloch, Pashtun card, and blame Punjab and Army. The country does not need that headache.

Also Imran Khan has bypassed the weakness of the parliamentary system to a certain degree, by appointing advisors instead of MNA's to various different positions.

There are successful countries with a presidential system and parliamentary system. And there are unsuccessful countries with those systems. The system is not the problem, the leaders are.

Ok tomorrow IK leaves and someone like Nawaz emerges whose ministers are just his cronies and darbaries then what?


It is true that both systems have merit, but Pakistan has seen 7-10% growth whenever we have had psuedo-presidential form of government. Also all the strongest countries in the world have presidential form of government. US, China, Russia, Germany

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Ok tomorrow IK leaves and someone like Nawaz emerges whose ministers are just his cronies and darbaries then what?

What if someone like Nawaz becomes President, and appoints his cronies that way?

Either way someone like Nawaz is not good for the country.

Its on the people to stop voting for failed parties. Definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

Maybe have elections every 4 years instead of 5 years. No more coups, so the failed parties cant pin their failures on Army.

What Pakistan has been doing for decades is going back and forth between president and parliamentary system. This has to stop, and its best to just use the current parliamentary system to improve the country.

 

[Greenstorm]

What if someone like Nawaz becomes President, and appoints his cronies that way?

Either way someone like Nawaz is not good for the country.

Its on the people to stop voting for failed parties. Definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

Maybe have elections every 4 years instead of 5 years. No more coups, so the failed parties cant pin their failures on Army.

What Pakistan has been doing for decades is going back and forth between president and parliamentary system. This has to stop, and its best to just use the current parliamentary system to improve the country.

Someone like Nawaz Sharif can never become president. You need nation wide appeal and charisma to become president in a democratic system and Nawaz never had that. In a presidential system, Imran khan could have been elected president as early as 2013.

Our previous presidents were not democratically elected even then we had the highest growth rates during their tenure. In current system, even Quaid-e-Azam will have a hard time, first getting elected and then delivering.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Someone like Nawaz Sharif can never become president. You need nation wide appeal and charisma to become president in a democratic system and Nawaz never had that. In a presidential system, Imran khan could have been elected president as early as 2013.

Our previous presidents were not democratically elected even then we had the highest growth rates during their tenure. In current system, even Quaid-e-Azam will have a hard time, first getting elected and then delivering.

You can be president if you win the popular vote. Nawaz Sharif has a huge vote bank in Punjab, which is the most populous province. 2013 would have been close between Imran and Nawaz, however i think Nawaz would have won. Though in 2018 IK would definitely have won.

However more importantly you cant change the system democratically any time soon. And if you use alternate means, you are going to people in the smaller provinces playing Sindh, Baloch, Pashtun card, and blame Punjab and Army. Which the country does not need.

Imran Khan has a done a decent job so far, especially if you consider the problems that the country was facing when he took over. So i really feel its not the system its the person.

 

[Bigboii]

You can be president if you win the popular vote. Nawaz Sharif has a huge vote bank in Punjab, which is the most populous province. 2013 would have been close between Imran and Nawaz, however i think Nawaz would have won. Though in 2018 IK would definitely have won.

However more importantly you cant change the system democratically any time soon. And if you use alternate means, you are going to people in the smaller provinces playing Sindh, Baloch, Pashtun card, and blame Punjab and Army. Which the country does not need.

Imran Khan has a done a decent job so far, especially if you consider the problems that the country was facing when he took over. So i really feel its not the system its the person.

You can have a Senate like US so they can block any judgement or law they don't like

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You can have a Senate like US so they can block any judgement or law they don't like

There is already a Senate in Pakistan, where provinces have equal number of senators, same like US.

 

[Bigboii]

There is already a Senate in Pakistan, where provinces have equal number of senators, same like US.

Are they as powerful as they're in the States?

And with 18th amendment I think provinces are largely independent and if the presidential system is similar to US I don't see a problem you have equal representation in Senate and you can do whatever you want in your state
Sounds like an alright system to me

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Are they as powerful as they're in the States?

And with 18th amendment I think provinces are largely independent and if the presidential system is similar to US I don't see a problem you have equal representation in Senate and you can do whatever you want in your state
Sounds like an alright system to me

Senate in Pakistan is similar to senate in the US.

There is nothing wrong with the presidential system, the only thing is the people of the smaller provinces dont want it. So it creates needless headache. The only time Pakistan had presidential system is under dictatorship. So too alot of people they see it as Army saazish.

 

[Greenstorm]

You can be president if you win the popular vote. Nawaz Sharif has a huge vote bank in Punjab, which is the most populous province. 2013 would have been close between Imran and Nawaz, however i think Nawaz would have won. Though in 2018 IK would definitely have won.

However more importantly you cant change the system democratically any time soon. And if you use alternate means, you are going to people in the smaller provinces playing Sindh, Baloch, Pashtun card, and blame Punjab and Army. Which the country does not need.

Imran Khan has a done a decent job so far, especially if you consider the problems that the country was facing when he took over. So i really feel its not the system its the person.

That huge vote bank in Punjab is due to the local 'electables'. Most of them are corrupt and they collectively form an extractive system which oppresses the poor. Social dynamics of constituency forces people to vote for such powerful individuals. A presidential system will give voters the option to bypass all that. Our nation loves charismatic individuals and Nawaz lacks that. He would have never gained power in a presidential system. On the other hand Imran won his seat in Lahore and he could have won in almost every constituency of Pakistan apart from interior Sindh or interior Balochistan.

Punjab should be divided into atleast 3 provinces to pacify nationalists in Sindh and KPK. This will give some time before they latch on something else (possibly Army) to cry about.

Imran Khan has managed to get through this system and attain power. Not many can accomplish what he did but still the system restricts him to bring necessary reforms (police for instance). Nation is suffering due to this inept system and it is Imran-Bajwa's responsibility to quash this failed system and bring us on track of progress.

 

[Greenstorm]

Senate in Pakistan is similar to senate in the US.

There is nothing wrong with the presidential system, the only thing is the people of the smaller provinces dont want it. So it creates needless headache. The only time Pakistan had presidential system is under dictatorship. So too alot of people they see it as Army saazish.

There is no evidence of that. No one knows there opinion on this. Still that can be resolved by dividing Punjab into several provinces.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

There is no evidence of that. No one knows there opinion on this. Still that can be resolved by dividing Punjab into several provinces.

The evidence is that the parties that the people in the smaller provinces vote for oppose the presidential system. For example whether ones likes it or not, PPP has the mandate of the Sindhi people. They won in 2008, 2013, and 2018. And they will definitely win in 2023.

 

[Bigboii]

There is no evidence of that. No one knows there opinion on this. Still that can be resolved by dividing Punjab into several provinces.

Parties outside of Punjab don't like presidential system it's common knowledge

 

[Greenstorm]

The evidence is that the parties that the people in the smaller provinces vote for oppose the presidential system. For example whether ones likes it or not, PPP has the mandate of the Sindhi people. They won in 2008, 2013, and 2018. And they will definitely win in 2023.

Obviously corrupt local feudals will have an issue with presidential system, that will render them powerless. People vote for them due to social dynamics of those regions. Otherwise, waderas of PPP are not the true representatives of interior Sindh. In a direct election in Larkana, IK will give tough time to Bhuttos.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Imran Khan has managed to get through this system and attain power. Not many can accomplish what he did but still the system restricts him to bring necessary reforms (police for instance). Nation is suffering due to this inept system and it is Imran-Bajwa's responsibility to quash this failed system and bring us on track of progress.

If one accepts the reality that it will take decades to improve the country, then the progress being made will seem better. For example on a scale of a 1 - 10 if the country is at a 3 right now. So if you are expecting a 9 or 10 then you will be disappointed. However if your goal is a 4, then its very possible to meet that target. And then you can go for a 5, then 6 and so on.

So instead of Inquilab Zindabad, going for an evolutionary approach is more relastic.

Punjab should be divided into atleast 3 provinces to pacify nationalists in Sindh and KPK. This will give some time before they latch on something else (possibly Army) to cry about.

With the current system the nationalist have been pacified. ANP lost in 2013 and in 2018. And Sindhi nationalist, while they never won an election, they are now blaming PPP, instead of Punjabis, Urdu speakers, and Army, for their problems. So the mindset is changing, but it needs more time.

That huge vote bank in Punjab is due to the local 'electables'. Most of them are corrupt and they collectively form an extractive system which oppresses the poor. Social dynamics of constituency forces people to vote for such powerful individuals. A presidential system will give voters the option to bypass all that. Our nation loves charismatic individuals and Nawaz lacks that. He would have never gained power in a presidential system. On the other hand Imran won his seat in Lahore and he could have won in almost every constituency of Pakistan apart from interior Sindh or interior Balochistan.

Maybe you are right. I am not a Punjabi, but i have visited Punjab a few times, and i talked with a lot of locals about who they are supporting. And it was mostly Nawaz Sharif. I am not talking about very educated people here, i am talking about drivers, guards, shopkeepers, etc.

And granted i did not visit all of Punjab only 3 cities, but thats the impression i got, that Nawaz Sharif has a huge vote bank.

 

[Greenstorm]

Parties outside of Punjab don't like presidential system it's common knowledge

Parties (full of individuals who are beneficiaries of current corrupt system) do not like it. That does not mean that people are against it. How many people do you think will be protesting on the streets of Larkana if PPP calls for agitation against government on any issue let alone presidential system ? A few dozen at max.

 

[Greenstorm]

If one accepts the reality that it will take decades to improve the country, then the progress being made will seem better. For example on a scale of a 1 - 10 if the country is at a 3 right now. So if you are expecting a 9 or 10 then you will be disappointed. However if your goal is a 4, then its very possible to meet that target. And then you can go for a 5, then 6 and so on.

So instead of Inquilab Zindabad, going for an evolutionary approach is more relastic.

Your evolutionary approach is not feasible for a country like Pakistan. If tomorrow God forbids something happens to IK, there will most likely be martial law in this country. There goes your evolutionary process.
I see shifting to presidential system as part of evolution. Its no inqilaab.

With the current system the nationalist have been pacified. ANP lost in 2013 and in 2018. And Sindhi nationalist, while they never won an election, they are now blaming PPP, instead of Punjabis, Urdu speakers, and Army, for their problems. So the mindset is changing, but it needs more time.

Nationalists were always a fringe element in Pakistan. They seemed pronounced and active because of foreign 'help' which used to recruit nefarious elements within them. They are 'pacified' now because security and intelligence agencies have learned their lessons and tackled them effictively.

Maybe you are right. I am not a Punjabi, but i have visited Punjab a few times, and i talked with a lot of locals about who they are supporting. And it was mostly Nawaz Sharif. I am not talking about very educated people here, i am talking about drivers, guards, shopkeepers, etc.

And granted i did not visit all of Punjab only 3 cities, but thats the impression i got, that Nawaz Sharif has a huge vote bank.

You got the right impression. Nawaz has considerable support in central Punjab but it is due to the fact that Nawaz, under establishment's supervision, managed to cultivate all the electables in the region in 80s and 90s. He became popular among masses after attaining power. Still IK will give him tough time in direct elections.

My point is that Nawaz could never have attained power in the first place in a presidential system and no one would have known him now.

Bold

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Obviously corrupt local feudals will have an issue with presidential system, that will render them powerless. People vote for them due to social dynamics of those regions. Otherwise, waderas of PPP are not the true representatives of interior Sindh. In a direct election in Larkana, IK will give tough time to Bhuttos.

Larakna is where Bilawal won from. And In Larkana PTI got around 5% of the vote. So even if Imran Khan contested from there that was too much of a gap to not only win, but to even give a tough time to PPP.

The best option is for PTI to give the second biggest wadera in every constituency a PTI ticket. With the wadera vote bank, plus PTI vote bank then PTI can give a tough time to PPP.

 

[Greenstorm]

Larakna is where Bilawal won from. And In Larkana PTI got around 5% of the vote. So even if Imran Khan contested from there that was too much of a gap to not only win, but to even give a tough time to PPP.

The best option is for PTI to give the second biggest wadera in every constituency a PTI ticket. With the wadera vote bank, plus PTI vote bank then PTI can give a tough time to PPP.

You cannot bring reforms when you come into power on the back of waderas.

And btw doesn't electoral college evens out popular vote in a presidential system ? Correct me if I am wrong, didn't Hillary got more votes overall but still Trump won ?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Bold

Your evolutionary approach is not feasible for a country like Pakistan. If tomorrow God forbids something happens to IK, there will most likely be martial law in this country. There goes your evolutionary process.
I see shifting to presidential system as part of evolution. Its no inqilaab.

If it happens democratically, i have no issue with the presidential system, and then it would be evolution. I just dont think it can happen democratically.

Also alot of people in Pakistan hate the Pakistan Army generals. This is not a fringe. The hatred of generals is usually expressed by insulting the Army as a whole, which is unfair for the majority of soldiers who are not officers, who have risked their life for the country, and who enter the Army poor and leave poor.

So i would hope they think a million times before doing a coup again. And remember that ever dictator has left disgraced, or died in disgrace.


Nationalists were always a fringe element in Pakistan. They seemed pronounced and active because of foreign 'help' which used to recruit nefarious elements within them. They are 'pacified' now because security and intelligence agencies have learned their lessons and tackled them effictively.

They were a fringe element in Punjab, Sindh, Gilgit Baltisatn, and Azad Kashmir. However in KPK and Baluchistan they had alot of support. With PTI they seem to be finished in KPK as well, and Pashtuns are now well integrated into Pakistan. But they still have a large number of supporters in Baluchistan. Not a majority but significantly larger number than the other provinces.

 

[Abdullah719]

SC moved for referendum on presidential system

A constitutional petition has been filed in the Supreme Court, seeking direction to the prime minister for holding referendum about the establishment of presidential form of government in Pakistan.

The petition is filed by Tahir Aziz Khan, the chairman of a political party called the Hum Awam Pakistan, under Article 184 (3) of the Constitution. One of the main objectives of the Hum Awam Pakistan is to establish presidential form of government in the country.

The petitioner seeks direction from the apex court to the Prime Minister of Pakistan to hold a referendum, as provided under the Clause 6 of the Article 48 of the Constitution to determine whether the people of Pakistan for their welfare and wellbeing want Presidential form of government or not.

The petition states that it is apparent from the print, electronic and social media that an overwhelming majority of the people are fed up with the parliamentary form of government and want to adopt the presidential form of government.

Spoiler

It is stated that currently Pakistan is the sixth most populous country in the world with an estimated population of 212 million people. According to the United Nations’ observations, this population is estimated to reach 403 million by 2050, the petition stated.

Pakistan has also one of the world’s largest youth population, as 64% of the Pakistanis are now under the age of 30. Pakistan is ranked as 122nd out of 190 countries in the world in the opinion of World Health Organisation’s performance report in terms of quality and accessibility of health care, it adds.

The petitioner states that this growing population will put catastrophic pressures on resources, leaving tens of millions of people jobless. This trend will further almost inevitably lead to further destabilisation of Pakistan’s already fragile political system.

As of March 2020, the petition states, public debt of Pakistan was estimated at about Rs42.8 trillion or $256 billion, which is 98.2% of the country’s gross domestic product (GDP), while the external debt stood at around $112 billion. Pakistan owes $5.765 billion to International Monetary Fund (IMF).

No doubt, 25% of Pakistan’s population lives below the poverty line. At present, the average human development index (HDI) and the GDP are the lowest as compared to other South Asian countries like India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan, says the petition.

This poor condition of masses of Pakistan directly reflects upon the system of the government in Pakistan and it has been established that the parliamentary system of governance in the country has utterly failed, the petition contends.

Likewise, the petition adds, “in our parliamentary system, members of parliament are in the habit of changing loyalties and are out to blackmail and pressurise the government to promote their own personal interests”.

“It is for this reason that often a healthy opposition and a strong government are not there to take care of the welfare and wellbeing of the people. Similarly, there is little legislation in the assemblies and the meetings of legislatures often fail due to shortage of quorum. The monitoring role of the opposition is therefore often compromised.”

It is further contended that there is not a complete separation of powers between the executive and the legislature. This has been principal cause of politicisation of the administration, non-professionalism, nepotism and corruption.

“The people who are posted at sensitive posts are often not eligible for those posts and are appointed without being competent for those posts to win over the members of opposition and allies of that government,” the petition contends.

It says that the executive head and his ministers are not always competent. As the selection of the cabinet members has to be made from members of the parliament, the National Assembly or the Senate, competent people are not often available to improve the quality of governance.

“Many of aforesaid problems are automatically removed in the presidential system. The presidential form of government is suitable for Pakistan because in exercising his powers, the president requires no help from the parliament to implement his agenda. The presidential form of democracy puts the decision-making process on a fast track.”

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2261529/sc-moved-for-referendum-on-presidential-system