PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

[Strike Rate]

Only a dictator can bring order to this country in this current situtation.

IK was a hope, but until NS resigns or is forced to resign he will just remain a hope.

I just hope Gen. Raheel could be the Waheed Kakkar of our generation.

In next election IK will still sit in opposition even more seats because all these status quo parties will join hands and they will form a goverment because they dont want a change.

 

[srh]

Allah Pakistan par reham karay something serious will happen now. We may end up with martial law tonight.

The army chief is in pocket of Nawaz Sharif. For martial law to come there has to be a revolt against the current army chief which is impossible. So no chance of martial law.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

SS running away to China...haha

 

[Strike Rate]

The army chief is in pocket of Nawaz Sharif. For martial law to come there has to be a revolt against the current army chief which is impossible. So no chance of martial law.

The bridge between Army and PML N is Ch Nisar because of his old relations with GHQ. If today Ch Nisar decide to leave PML N trust me these Nooras will run to Jeddah again.

PML N isi liay minaton terlon per ajati hai Ch Nisar ke because he is the one who is trying to create a better relationship with Army and he also have support of at least 60 MNA's and MPA's. Kaash ke Ch Nisar ka zameer jaag jaaye to PML N ki goverment ne 1 din nae chalna. Verna Cm Punjab kyun 5/5 chaker lagata tha Pindi ke Ch Nisar ko manaane ke liay jab wo naraz tha maheena pehle because they know his value. Verna Hashmi jiska syaasi qad Nisaat se kaheen zyada tha jab usne PML N chori to tab inhone usko itne aram se jaane dya because wo ab inke liay itni value nae rakhta tha.

 

[godzilla]

Any bloodshed or collusion will result in martial law. SS and Zaradari flying to china adds more confidence in this. Bloodshed in Islamabad may result in civil war.

how are they allowed to fly at a time like this? i understand ss, hes in the ruling party and laws dont apply to them, but why isnt zardari on a no fly list? why havent the nro cases been reopened against him? btw any sources for ss and zardari fleeing?

 

[dhump]

The army chief is in pocket of Nawaz Sharif. For martial law to come there has to be a revolt against the current army chief which is impossible. So no chance of martial law.

Bhutto thought the same thing.

 

[dhump]

how are they allowed to fly at a time like this? i understand ss, hes in the ruling party and laws dont apply to them, but why isnt zardari on a no fly list? why havent the nro cases been reopened against him? btw any sources for ss and zardari fleeing?

SS is all over media

 

[Fastandfurious]

#AzadiSquare
https://www.facebook.com/PTIOfficia...51626539526/10152383506499527/?type=1&theater

 

[Strike Rate]

Bhutto thought the same thing.

It's actually a general thinking in pakistani public that Army Chief can do everything on his own thats a wrong thinking. Army Chief need to make sure core commanders are on same paper when he decide to take an action. Army chief alone can't do anything without the support of core commanders. Core commander meetings in these situations are called to look at the situation and discuss it not to say hi hello to each other.

 

[godzilla]

thank you.

 

[Strike Rate]

Chance of crack down btw 3 to 5 am. ALLAH khaer kere or yeh khaber jhoot ho

 

[srh]

Bhutto thought the same thing.

there is significant difference between the situation of Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.
* Today media is lot more free and against martial law than in Bhutto's time.
* Today judiciary is lot more free and against martial law than in Bhutto's time.
* Today almost all politicians are against martial law; it was not the case in Bhutto's time.
* Today all foreign governments (with influence in Pakistan) are against martial law; it was not the case in Bhutto's time.
* Also army chief I believe belongs to the same biradari as Nawaz Sharif.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

How many people has Imran mobilised in this march? 10k, 100k, 1 million?

What about TUQ - are his numbers greater or? Why don't the two just join together?

Yes of course it's not all about the numbers but it would be interesting to know what exactly is happening on the ground over there. Also anti-government forces need leverage and a large stick by which to force the government's hand and in this instance that leverage probably is the number of people on the streets.

 

[Strike Rate]

How many people has Imran mobilised in this march? 10k, 100k, 1 million?

What about TUQ - are his numbers greater or? Why don't the two just join together?

Yes of course it's not all about the numbers but it would be interesting to know what exactly is happening on the ground over there. Also anti-government forces need leverage and a large stick by which to force the government's hand and in this instance that leverage probably is the number of people on the streets.

It's no more limited to Islamabad only. There are daily rallies and sittings in all big cities including Karachi Lahore and Faisalabad by PTI. One bad decision here by goverment will make sure the PML N career is over and Army will take over. Ground reality is that no deal is possible btw goverment IK and TUQ at the moment and things cant continue like this forever. Army will have to takeover if things remain same in next 2-3 days and politicians specially the goverment advisers dont show any maturity. Enough pressure on Army. PML N goverment always had 2/3 majority when they came in power 3 times but they always did this suicide and never learned from mistake. Shareefs are stupid or their advisers are idiots otherwise i dont see any reason when they dont learn from their past mistakes.

 

[Strike Rate]

Recent picture forces in isb looking active for something. I hope it's not for the operation

 

[Strike Rate]

Another propoganda by noora league on social media showing Dr. Mir Zaman picture as if it's Afzal Khan. Tum noora league waale kitna gir skte ho?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Man e beard behind IK is not Afzal Khan but Dr. Mir Zaman; evidence is posted by him on my FB Page; that Pic on Twitter was disinformation</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/statuses/504025061314269184">August 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Strike Rate]

lol

 

[Waseem]

Another propoganda by noora league on social media showing Dr. Mir Zaman picture as if it's Afzal Khan. Tum noora league waale kitna gir skte ho?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Man e beard behind IK is not Afzal Khan but Dr. Mir Zaman; evidence is posted by him on my FB Page; that Pic on Twitter was disinformation</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/statuses/504025061314269184">August 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Not sure about this but PMLN supporters are spreading all sort of theories to back their claim.

Worst i have seen is a post on facebook that claims that Imran Khan had promised to marry Afzal Khan's 21 year old daughter who pleaded with father to join Azadi March and forced him to lie on tv so she could marry Imran Khan. PMLN supporters with IQ levels matching their leader Nawaz Sharif obviously bought it and abused the hell out of Imran Khan

 

[saadibaba]

Excellent article by Babar Sattar

The mask of anarchy

Rise like lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many — they are few

Shelley is believed to have introduced the idea of nonviolent resistance in his poem The Mask of Anarchy, which celebrated the power of ordinary people to defeat violence with pacifism. Thoreau in his essay Civil Disobedience advocated listening to one’s conscience and rising up against injustice and slavery. Gandhi’s doctrine of Satyagraha, inspired in part by Shelley, aimed at freeing India from colonial shackles and seeking self-rule. Nelson Mandela suffered penalties of law to fight apartheid.

In transformational revolutions (eg French, American, Chinese, Iranian) the key idea has been to liberate the many from the oppression of the few. And civil rights movements (such as that of Martin Luther King) resonated with people when they sought equality and justice for those oppressed due to vile prejudice or tyranny of the majority. What is the Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf’s great revolutionary idea that will fix our broken homeland? Replacement of Nawaz Sharif with Imran Khan? Is the PTI fighting for a goal larger than the political aggrandisement of Imran Khan?

If this movement ensures that the mandate to rule in our democracy must be beyond suspicion, it will benefit ordinary Pakistanis. But if its sole purpose is to fix a perceived unproven wrong inflicted on the PTI voter in 2013, this movement by definition is a narrow partisan struggle not aimed at empowering ordinary citizens but a means to snatch power from the PML-N and hand it to the PTI.

If we did not have a history of military interventions, would anyone believe that the PTI and PAT posed a threat?

There appears to be a shared overwhelming sense amongst Pakistanis that we, as a state and nation, need to hit the reset button. Why then are the PTI and Pakistan Awami Tehreek ‘revolutions’ attracting such suspicion? Is it because focused on their core support base, PTI and PAT have alienated all others and painted themselves in a lonely corner? Or is it because PTI and PAT are neither addressing the causes that have led Pakistan astray nor proposing meaningful solutions through constructive means capable of implementation?

Rhetoric if backed by principles, ideals and charisma can stir peoples’ conscience. But when employed to promote selfish interest, it attracts derision. Anna Hazare successfully forced his Lokpal Bill on an unwilling political elite (despite widespread criticism that his ways were anti-democratic) because he spoke from outside the system and sought reform not power. Arvind Kejriwal ousted Sheila Dikshit but fell out of favour with Delhi as people realised that he could only critique the system from outside, not reform it from within.

Leaving aside some new faces, will the menagerie of tried and tested politicos (Chaudhrys, Sheikh Rasheeds, Khars etc) who have been all around and are permanent fixtures in the ‘system’ be able to convince anyone (other than unconditionally committed PTI/PAT devotees) of being harbingers of revolution against the very system that keeps them relevant? With a government in KP and otherwise comprised largely of those who have been in power corridors for over three decades, is PTI a system insider or outsider?

And what is the new revolutionary understanding of the ‘system’? Is Nawaz Sharif in trouble because he is the system that people have rebelled against or because he has fallen out with the system? Who has been the nemesis of the PPP since the 70s? Did the PML-N and PPP play musical chairs in the ’90s because every two years people of Pakistan revolted against the system? If Pakistan is to be built afresh have we heard our firebrand revolutionaries pontificate about the desirable role for the khakis — the most potent players in our system?

Did the Anna Hazare movement threaten the ‘system’ in India when he spoke of unacceptable corruption? Did the Indian parliament have to pass resolutions in favour of continuity of the constitutional order? Did its Supreme Court have to pass a restraining order against unconstitutional moves? If Pakistan did not have an unfortunate history of military interventions, would any rational observer even consider that these PTI/PAT revolutionaries pose a threat to the PML-N government?

Today, Pakistan has two systems: the feeble and struggling de jure system backed by the Constitution; and the all-powerful yet invisible de facto system backed by the khakis. While there remains a constant tug-of-war between these two, the history of Pakistan so far is a history of the de facto system being in effective overall control. None of this is meant to suggest that the de jure system is a well-oiled machine only malfunctioning due to disruptions caused by the de facto system.

But doesn’t the de facto system feed off the de jure system? If the de jure system worked, would there be room for the de facto system? Only someone interested in reforming the de jure system and rendering the de facto system subservient to it can set Pakistan in a new direction. This is what made the possibility of a principled reform-driven PTI emerging from within to fix the de jure system a breath of fresh air. The PTI’s latest moves disappoint, as this ‘revolution’ in its existing form can only succeed with the de facto system’s sponsorship.

Khan and Qadri both believed Musharraf would make them prime minister back in 2001. Khan acknowledged his mistake and has come a long way since: he is now a popular leader with a genuine political base. His position today is heartbreaking as standing alongside Qadri and delegitimising the ‘system’ without proposing an agenda for reform, Khan is deliberately or unwittingly entrenching the rhetoric about uncouth politicos, broken constitutional order, skies caving in and mighty saviours that is staple diet for our de facto system.

Many standing with the existing constitutional order and against the ‘revolutionaries’ are not inspired by love for Sharif. In a choice between the de jure system and the de facto system, they are standing with the former. But if the choice were between a status quo de jure system and a reformed de jure system, they would stand with the latter.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1127497

 

[Varun]

I think this entire march has been simmering for long enough. It's like watching a super long Bollywood movie with no climax.

 

[AZ]

I think this entire march has been simmering for long enough. It's like watching a super long Bollywood movie with no climax.

lol indeed, though I guess it will end very soon now that the Supreme Court has ordered both parties to move along.

Govt and police now have legal cover, no more fuel to conspiracy theories of one 'refusing orders' of the other.

 

[Fastandfurious]

lol indeed, though I guess it will end very soon now that the Supreme Court has ordered both parties to move along.

Govt and police now have legal cover, no more fuel to conspiracy theories of one 'refusing orders' of the other.

Hi AZ.

 

[Waseem]

Dr Hasan Askari's article describes Nawaz Sharif and his governance style quite well:

Pakistan is in the grip of yet another internal political crisis. The right to rule by the PMLN has been challenged by a section of the opposition despite its much trumpeted electoral mandate. Two opposition parties — the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) led by Imran Khan and the Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) led by Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri — want to knock out the federal government led by Nawaz Sharif. The PAT also wants to remove Shahbaz Sharif, chief minister of Punjab, and institute criminal proceedings against both Sharif brothers for killing 14 of its workers and injuring more than 80 people outside its party headquarters in Lahore by the Punjab Police.
The PML-N leadership and their supporters reject the resignation demand, claiming that they have the popular mandate from the May 2013 elections coupled with the resolution of the PML-N dominated National Assembly fully supporting the Nawaz government.
In two earlier instances in 1993 and 1999, the PML-N electoral mandate and the support in the National Assembly could not avert the removal of the Nawaz government. The military played a key role in removing the Nawaz government and salvaging internal political situation. Now, in August 2014, history seems to be repeating itself. The stalemate between the Nawaz government and the opposition can be resolved either when one side succumbs to the pressure of the other side. The military can use its political clout to facilitate, if not impose, a solution.
The most important question is why the Nawaz government runs into problems after winning an electoral mandate? Why can’t its leadership work smoothly with its allies, maintain a working relationship with the opposition and pursue a stable and trustworthy relationship with the military?
Pakistan has a democratic parliamentary system of government but the quality of democracy is poor. In the absence of democratic political culture, the political leaders and political parties often violate the basic principles of democracy. The fact that two political parties on protest in Pakistan are threatening to knock out the existing political system shows that there are serious problems at the operational level. Pakistan’s experience suggests that internal peace, stability and political continuity cannot be ensured simply by organising general elections.
The election process should be fair, free and transparent. A large section of the politically active populace must feel through their experience that the elections provide a fair opportunity to elect the leaders of their choice. The complaints regarding the electoral process must be addressed quickly and to the satisfaction of the principle of justice. In the 2013 general elections, the PML-N candidates had a clear, and in some cases, a decisive advantage because the long years of the PML-N’s rule in Punjab enabled Shahbaz Sharif to cultivate a politically loyal cadre of bureaucrats. Their role in influencing other officials was strengthened by the widely shared perception that the Shahbaz Sharif government would return to power. Most provincial bureaucratic machinery and other ambitious groups wanted to be on the winning side. As the PTI was viewed as a bigger challenge than the PPP in the Punjab, the former faced more problems.
Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif are in the habit of running their respective governments as a personal and family business empire, appointing loyalists to key bureaucratic and political positions. As loyalty is assigned a higher premium over professionalism, trustworthy family friends or members of the family call the shots, creating a circle of sycophants around them. It has traditionally been difficult for parliamentarians to meet Nawaz Sharif or Shahbaz Sharif. The parliamentarians could approach the bureaucrats working for the Sharif brothers to get their share of patronage. This style of governance has alienated a large number of people inside and outside the ruling party. This policy also denied the Sharif brothers of sane and independent advice on state affairs.
Now, after the launching of the agitation by the PTI and the PAT, the Sharif brothers have become more available to the parliamentarians and adopt a liberal approach to distribute state patronage to sustain support in the National Assembly. They are paying special attention to keeping the PPP and the ANP on their side in the current political confrontation.
The economic priorities of the governments in Lahore and Islamabad were misplaced. These governments focused more on publicity-oriented projects like building roads, starting bus services, building overhead bridges, underground pathways, distribution of free laptops and youth loans. All were managed as personalised affairs. The beneficiaries of such projects were those constructing and managing these projects. Only a small section of the ordinary populace benefited from these projects. The issues and problems that hurt the common people most were pushed to the background. These were electricity and gas shortages, price hike, inflated electricity bills and personal security. On countering terrorism, the civilian government dragged its feet until the military forced its decision to start a security operation in North Waziristan.
The government was more interested in macroeconomic indicators that benefited the business and trading classes and affluent people. The distributive aspect and socioeconomic equity were ignored. It made two additional blunders due to arrogance of power. Firstly, Imran Khan’s demands for verification of electoral process were rejected. Whatever checking was done by the Election Tribunals strengthened doubts about the fairness of the electoral process in Punjab. Secondly, ill-advised use of violence against Dr Qadri’s loyalists in Lahore on June 17 eroded the moral basis of the Punjab government. Lastly, the federal government could not maintain cordial relations with the military top command on several issues.
The PML-N government’s failure to gauge the growing resentment at the common-man level enabled Imran Khan and Tahir-ul-Qadri to mobilise the alienated populace. If the PML-N overcomes the current crisis, it will have to totally review its governance and political management and opt for the depersonalisation of power, emphasis on professionalism and delivery of services in view of the day-to-day problems of the common people.
Published in The Express Tribune, August 25th, 2014.
Like Opinion & Editorial on Facebook, follow [MENTION=29597]e[/MENTION]TOpEd on Twitter to receive all updates on all our daily pieces.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/753085/the-pml-n-mandate/

 

[AZ]

as opposed to the Bhutto-dominated PPP and Khan's personal fiefdom surrounded by a rabble of lotay that is PTI.

 

[Vegitto1]

Dr. Hassan Askari's article carries more weight and makes more sense than that of Babar Sattar.

Babar Sattar's article is based on the premise that "PTI doesn't have a solution" - "They reasons for the sit-in are selfish and self-centred" - "If others haven't been able to fix the system then PTI cannot do it either."

An article based purely on negative assumptions and showing a complete lack of understanding of what PTI is about and no research made into the positive changes implemented in KPK.

 

[Lords]

This is exactly what is happening and well put by sattar. Marches by the two saviors pose no threat to the govt and have no weight-age. In any other country they would be booked for various reasons including illegally entering a red zone area, removing containers put by the agencies, threatening to topple the govt and threatening people with personal injury, restricting access to govt buildings and inciting violence.

Its a known fact that nawaz is actually afraid of the "third Empire" (not umpire) which is talking through its foot soldiers.

Did the Anna Hazare movement threaten the ‘system’ in India when he spoke of unacceptable corruption? Did the Indian parliament have to pass resolutions in favour of continuity of the constitutional order? Did its Supreme Court have to pass a restraining order against unconstitutional moves? If Pakistan did not have an unfortunate history of military interventions, would any rational observer even consider that these PTI/PAT revolutionaries pose a threat to the PML-N government?

 

[Vegitto1]

This is exactly what is happening and well put by sattar.

Another way to look at it is that the military is the reason they are sitting quietly as well. Otherwise the amount of unjustice and cruelty which now exists in Pakistan, these people are ready to burn down Parliament, Supreme Court and all these so called leaders and judges sitting in these buildings.

Please name me another democratic country where 14 people are killed by the police in broad-daylight and yet no arrests are made and no enquiries?

Stop bringing up democracy to save the corrupt! and also learn to differentiate between government and democracy

 

[Lords]

Another way to look at it is that the military is the reason they are sitting quietly as well. Otherwise the amount of unjustice and cruelty which now exists in Pakistan, these people are ready to burn down Parliament, Supreme Court and all these so called leaders and judges sitting in these buildings.

Please name me another democratic country where 14 people are killed by the police in broad-daylight and yet no arrests are made and no enquiries?

Stop bringing up democracy to save the corrupt! and also learn to differentiate between government and democracy

Well if you talk about democracy and govt then lets make it clear that IK is not doing it for democracy. He is doing it againt current govt to form his govt. If he was so much worried about democracy then he would have first marched against the army which never let democracy flourish in pakistan and always installed their own stooges ( be it bhutto or nawaz or shortcut azis) and remove the ones who defy them.

Army should be under the govt in democracy not the other way around. If he becomes PM do you think he can order army to stop operations against balouchis or stop allowing drones and nato supply? He can only work in the sandbox provided by the army and that is no democracy my friend. Its just another govt agreeing to play under the undemocratic rules.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

Well if you talk about democracy and govt then lets make it clear that IK is not doing it for democracy. He is doing it againt current govt to form his govt. If he was so much worried about democracy then he would have first marched against the army which never let democracy flourish in pakistan and always installed their own stooges ( be it bhutto or nawaz or shortcut azis) and remove the ones who defy them.

Army should be under the govt in democracy not the other way around. If he becomes PM do you think he can order army to stop operations against balouchis or stop allowing drones and nato supply? He can only work in the sandbox provided by the army and that is no democracy my friend. Its just another govt agreeing to play under the undemocratic rules.

It's a I scratch yours back you scratch my back thing.

Our rulers are so corrupt they really have no mandate to stay in office, let alone stand against the army to control it. The army what it wants the govt loots as it pleases

 

[DHONI183]

One thing is for sure, I haven´t seen better, greater, more inspirational and compelling speaker from Pakistan in my lifetime than Tahir-ul-Qadri sahib. He speaks with such motivation!

 

[Vegitto1]

Well if you talk about democracy and govt then lets make it clear that IK is not doing it for democracy. He is doing it againt current govt to form his govt. If he was so much worried about democracy then he would have first marched against the army which never let democracy flourish in pakistan and always installed their own stooges ( be it bhutto or nawaz or shortcut azis) and remove the ones who defy them.

Army should be under the govt in democracy not the other way around. If he becomes PM do you think he can order army to stop operations against balouchis or stop allowing drones and nato supply? He can only work in the sandbox provided by the army and that is no democracy my friend. Its just another govt agreeing to play under the undemocratic rules.

Firstly, you are assuming he is doing it to form his government. The way I see it, he wants a free and fair election and after that whoever comes to power is acceptable. If he is installed by the army without an election that I may not support PTI any longer.

Second, army is strong because civilian government has been weak and corrupt from day one. Fair enough, army never let civilian government flourish, but when they have had their chances what have they ever done? Lets do simple maths.

Army vs. Civilian government. - Army starts off with an advantage, these are the people that protect us from India etc. so no denying that emotionally, Army has an edge to start with.

Both Army and the civilian government are corrupt and when in power try to control institutions which are meant to keep a check and balance on them. Police isn't independent, courts aren't independent etc. Nor the army and neither has civilian government passed effective legislations to strengthen these institutions.

While we can argue that army has been effectively fulfilling its role during democratic phases, the civilian government has been doing absolutely nothing except increasing their bank balances. No schools, no power production, no economic policies etc. things which the army doesn't stop them from doing - Does army say not to collect tax?

Had civilian government been honesty and provided for the people during their time then they would have strong support of the public behind them and it wouldn't be easy for army to throw them out.

Civilian failure has made the army stronger.

 

[Vegitto1]

One thing is for sure, I haven´t seen better, greater, more inspirational and compelling speaker from Pakistan in my lifetime than Tahir-ul-Qadri sahib. He speaks with such motivation!

hmmm....being a cleric helps I guess.

 

[DHONI183]

Another propoganda by noora league on social media showing Dr. Mir Zaman picture as if it's Afzal Khan. Tum noora league waale kitna gir skte ho?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Man e beard behind IK is not Afzal Khan but Dr. Mir Zaman; evidence is posted by him on my FB Page; that Pic on Twitter was disinformation</p>— Moeed Pirzada (@MoeedNj) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoeedNj/statuses/504025061314269184">August 25, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yeah, read about this earlier today on Twitter.

A question though, did Afzal Khan attend the ongoing PTI dharna at any point, irrespective of whether after or before appearing on ARY News?

hmmm....being a cleric helps I guess.

Definitely, it (giving speeches) being something that he does every other day. I have hardly missed any of his speeches since days now.

Let´s see what he plans to do after the deadline is over tomorrow. Waiting anxiously.....

 

[Lords]

Firstly, you are assuming he is doing it to form his government. The way I see it, he wants a free and fair election and after that whoever comes to power is acceptable. If he is installed by the army without an election that I may not support PTI any longer.

Second, army is strong because civilian government has been weak and corrupt from day one. Fair enough, army never let civilian government flourish, but when they have had their chances what have they ever done? Lets do simple maths.

Army vs. Civilian government. - Army starts off with an advantage, these are the people that protect us from India etc. so no denying that emotionally, Army has an edge to start with.

Both Army and the civilian government are corrupt and when in power try to control institutions which are meant to keep a check and balance on them. Police isn't independent, courts aren't independent etc. Nor the army and neither has civilian government passed effective legislations to strengthen these institutions.

While we can argue that army has been effectively fulfilling its role during democratic phases, the civilian government has been doing absolutely nothing except increasing their bank balances. No schools, no power production, no economic policies etc. things which the army doesn't stop them from doing - Does army say not to collect tax?

Had civilian government been honesty and provided for the people during their time then they would have strong support of the public behind them and it wouldn't be easy for army to throw them out.

Civilian failure has made the army stronger.

I am not assuming, he himself says saddi vari aan deo and before the march javed hashmi declared that they want to make IK the PM of the country.

Secondly, a bad democracy and government can only be fixed by a good democracy and good government. Military intervention is never an answer. Military takeover just resets the process of moving towards betterment and restarts it with condition when the coup ends.

I argue other way round that stronger army (in internal affairs) is the cause of the weak government and poor political system. No matter how bad government is, it is elected by people and people have power to elect others if they dont perform. This is not an overnight process, it takes time after changing successive govts. If you take shortcuts then you will always end up in temperory fix which is status quo.

India, for example, had far worse system. It has seen lot more volatile time in 90s but just the continuation of democracy ironed out a lot of chinks. Its an evolving process which takes its due time.

Like i said that army has ruled directly most of pakistan's existence and indirectly for all of its existence. Hence if that is not changed then even IK wont be able to perform as per his wishes if he ever becomes PM.

I am in no way saying that Nawaz is good or Gilani was good. But they are not cause of the problems instead they are the by product of the larger problem.

Govt should govern, army should defend borders, police should enforce laws internally, judiciary should provide justice , opposition should oppose and clerics should preach peacefully. If everyone just keeps on doing their own work however badly then the beautiful democracy slowly but surely realigns itself. Its like evolution, best thing survives and bad things parish. Any external intervention just ruins the process by creating artificial variables.

Like everyone else here i dont doubt IK's intentions, i am just not sure about his team's capability and people who are supporting him from behind the veil.

 

[Azzurri]

Hamza ali abbasi explaining why he is supporting pti

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[Vegitto1]

I am not assuming, he himself says saddi vari aan deo and before the march javed hashmi declared that they want to make IK the PM of the country.

Secondly, a bad democracy and government can only be fixed by a good democracy and good government. Military intervention is never an answer. Military takeover just resets the process of moving towards betterment and restarts it with condition when the coup ends.

I argue other way round that stronger army (in internal affairs) is the cause of the weak government and poor political system. No matter how bad government is, it is elected by people and people have power to elect others if they dont perform. This is not an overnight process, it takes time after changing successive govts. If you take shortcuts then you will always end up in temperory fix which is status quo.

India, for example, had far worse system. It has seen lot more volatile time in 90s but just the continuation of democracy ironed out a lot of chinks. Its an evolving process which takes its due time.

Like i said that army has ruled directly most of pakistan's existence and indirectly for all of its existence. Hence if that is not changed then even IK wont be able to perform as per his wishes if he ever becomes PM.

I am in no way saying that Nawaz is good or Gilani was good. But they are not cause of the problems instead they are the by product of the larger problem.

Govt should govern, army should defend borders, police should enforce laws internally, judiciary should provide justice , opposition should oppose and clerics should preach peacefully. If everyone just keeps on doing their own work however badly then the beautiful democracy slowly but surely realigns itself. Its like evolution, best thing survives and bad things parish. Any external intervention just ruins the process by creating artificial variables.

Like everyone else here i dont doubt IK's intentions, i am just not sure about his team's capability and people who are supporting him from behind the veil.

I guess until and unless Imran Khan has had an opportunity we are simply going of guess work. His CV goes in his favour though. He is an honest man who has always achieved what he set out for. And he is a proud Pakistani unlike most self-hating politicians!.

 

[Vegitto1]

Yeah, read about this earlier today on Twitter.

A question though, did Afzal Khan attend the ongoing PTI dharna at any point, irrespective of whether after or before appearing on ARY News?



Definitely, it (giving speeches) being something that he does every other day. I have hardly missed any of his speeches since days now.

Let´s see what he plans to do after the deadline is over tomorrow. Waiting anxiously.....

Yes, I am sure he did, seen pictures of him at the dharna with his family.

 

[Kianig89]

Ss n shoul be arrested Asap

 

[Indiafan]

I will stand with Army this time. I wasted many years protesting against Musharraf for Democracy and then of favor of CJ restoration. Ager is cheaz ka naam jamhuriat or democracy hai ko pichle 6 saal dekhi hai PML N or PPP ki federal or provisional governments main to main 100 baar laanat bhejta hun aysee democracy per muje dictatorship qabool hai or main saari umer pachtaunga ke mene apni zindagi ke chand qeemti saal in luteron or inki baadshahat ko restore kerne ke liay waste kiay.

I am surprised that you do not realize that it is BECAUSE of Mushraff's rule that first PPP and then PMLN came to power. Every time the army interferes, every time their is a dictatorship, you will ALWAYS have corrupt people coming to power

With one complete term of a democratic government, a first time party like PTI could gain so many seats. In 2-3 terms Imran or some equivalent honest guy would easily come to power. However, when a dictatorship comes, it will kill off small parties like PTI. People will forget the gains made by PTI and again go back to corrupt parties.

It is surprising that despite 65 years if seeing this cycle continue - government elected, army comes, then corrupt government comes back - you STILL want to go back to the tried and tested formula instead of trying continued democracy so that more Imrans rise and one day will make the government. This lack of patience has already cost you big time in the past.

Tell me, would Imran have so much power today if democracy hadn't been there for last 5 years in Pakistan? Answer is a clear no. And martial law now will kill off more potential Imrans

Just remember one thing. You can never kill off a corrupt party by overthrowing them. Over throwing creates sympathies. Over throwing creates excuses. When Mushraff overthrew Sharif did it kill off corruption? Did it Kill off corrupt parties? Only way to kill off a party for a long time is to let people decide and let people VOTE THEM OUT. Only that will be permanent. To come back to power, they will have to do what the people want.

 

[the Great Khan]

all those whow ant the army to come in should read indiafans post above. If the army comes Nawaz just becomes a siyasi shaheed like baby Bhutto and his misbegotten family. That's what the shareefs would love. IK will not give them that opportunity.

 

[Mystrey]

Just remember one thing. You can never kill off a corrupt party by overthrowing them. Over throwing creates sympathies. Over throwing creates excuses. When Mushraff overthrew Sharif did it kill off corruption? Did it Kill off corrupt parties? Only way to kill off a party for a long time is to let people decide and let people VOTE THEM OUT. Only that will be permanent. To come back to power, they will have to do what the people want.

How can people 'vote them out' when its clear as daylight that they rig hence rob everyone the chance of 'voting them out'?

 

[Indiafan]

How can people 'vote them out' when its clear as daylight that they rig hence rob everyone the chance of 'voting them out'?

I don't think in a country as huge as Pakistan, rigging alone can change results of an election. And sooner or later, these institutions will also grow stronger if allowed to continue. After all, even these institutions (including those who observe voting, election commissions, etc) are part of a democracy which is still a baby. So they are as clueless as anyone else because they are not used to doing this for long

 

[Mystrey]

I don't think in a country as huge as Pakistan, rigging alone can change results of an election. And sooner or later, these institutions will also grow stronger if allowed to continue. After all, even these institutions (including those who observe voting, election commissions, etc) are part of a democracy which is still a baby. So they are as clueless as anyone else because they are not used to doing this for long

I believed that. But what's coming out even if half of its true then its clear enough rigging massively changed the result of the election. At worst no party would get a majority.

 

[godzilla]

im seeing this on the tapes, does anyone have any confirmation?

"Breaking: Care Taker Minister Shahzad Ahsan Exposing CJP was involved in Rigging"

i heard imran said that he said that the ex cjp and sethi were both involved. hearing too that tariq malik will come out today explaining why he was ousted from nadra?

i havent seen anything confirmed about this from official sources.

 

[Lords]

So TUQ threatens govt to step down in 23 hrs or blood will be spilled.

I dont know why police and courts are not taking any action for these threats. Imagine if Nawaz asked them to leave in 24 hours or blood would be spilled, all hell would have broken loose.

In other news fourth round of talks between govt and PTI has started. Looks like PTI wants to negotiate otherwise they wouldnt be talking.

 

[godzilla]

for all the bleating of this being failed and embarrassing venture for the protestors, and how theres a small handful of people that are irrelevant, the government really does seem to be very rattled. i think its a very good question as to why the police and courts (which are now perceived to be pmln puppets) havent stepped in - the reason it probably because this is becoming if its not already a become a true peoples revolt - any action like that would certainly mark the end of the pmln government.

theres just too much evidence emerging that there has been serious impropriety, of far reaching and treasonous corruption - i think its very difficult to avoid giving the people a sense of justice at this point. that doesnt mean that the pmln is kicked out, or indeed that sharif is removed for the long term, but unbiased investigations and trials need to be seen to be enacted.

 

[s28]

this is a very odd rebuttal from the former chief justice

surely if you believe you have nothing to hide you should ask for a full independent investigation so that those who have 'blackened' your name can be outed in public ?

http://www.geo.tv/article-157914-Ex-CJ-Chaudhry-rebuts-Imrans-allegations-as-false

 

[Vegitto1]

So TUQ threatens govt to step down in 23 hrs or blood will be spilled.

I dont know why police and courts are not taking any action for these threats. Imagine if Nawaz asked them to leave in 24 hours or blood would be spilled, all hell would have broken loose.

In other news fourth round of talks between govt and PTI has started. Looks like PTI wants to negotiate otherwise they wouldnt be talking.

Army met PM
PM resumed negotiations
PTI agreed to sit-down but their demand for PM resignation stands.

 

[saadibaba]

What's with these deadlines. Every day we hear that the next 24-48 hrs are crucial and game changing and they come and go and nothing much happens.

Will this test match result in a draw?

 

[RWAC]

What's with these deadlines. Every day we hear that the next 24-48 hrs are crucial and game changing and they come and go and nothing much happens.

Will this test match result in a draw?

It's like the early days - boring timeless Tests!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[godzilla]

What's with these deadlines. Every day we hear that the next 24-48 hrs are crucial and game changing and they come and go and nothing much happens.

Will this test match result in a draw?

actually thats something i do agree with. i can understand that a timeline is a good mechanism to keep everyone involved, and it is a brilliant soap opera if nothing else, but especially with qadri, i hope he starts making them as dramatic as he markets them.

 

[Strike Rate]

I am surprised that you do not realize that it is BECAUSE of Mushraff's rule that first PPP and then PMLN came to power. Every time the army interferes, every time their is a dictatorship, you will ALWAYS have corrupt people coming to power

With one complete term of a democratic government, a first time party like PTI could gain so many seats. In 2-3 terms Imran or some equivalent honest guy would easily come to power. However, when a dictatorship comes, it will kill off small parties like PTI. People will forget the gains made by PTI and again go back to corrupt parties.

It is surprising that despite 65 years if seeing this cycle continue - government elected, army comes, then corrupt government comes back - you STILL want to go back to the tried and tested formula instead of trying continued democracy so that more Imrans rise and one day will make the government. This lack of patience has already cost you big time in the past.

Tell me, would Imran have so much power today if democracy hadn't been there for last 5 years in Pakistan? Answer is a clear no. And martial law now will kill off more potential Imrans

Just remember one thing. You can never kill off a corrupt party by overthrowing them. Over throwing creates sympathies. Over throwing creates excuses. When Mushraff overthrew Sharif did it kill off corruption? Did it Kill off corrupt parties? Only way to kill off a party for a long time is to let people decide and let people VOTE THEM OUT. Only that will be permanent. To come back to power, they will have to do what the people want.

I agree with most of your points maybe i was emotional because i spent some of my years on road for democracy and in the end got this fake democracy which is a big slap on the face of democracy. I also dont want Shareefs to become syaasi shaheed again like they did in 1999 and Imran is aware of this fact too thats why he used every legal way before coming on road. He cried for 14 months in courts in parliament for fair investigation but they were laughing at him and making it look like a joke but today they realized they are most stupid people on earth. I am not a die hard PTI supporter or TUQ supporter but i want change. I want these old corrupt family parties to go off screen so we can test something new they are running goverment like a family business.

I know PML N very well because i was one of their supporter and victim of their politics too. I personally suffered because of this party. Their MNA's and MPA's act like Kings of their areas. I wasted 3 years in courts because of a fake case of PML (N) MNA and the judge was under their control. The attitude of N league MNA's and MPA's is same like their boss Nawaz Shareef.

 

[Strike Rate]

actually thats something i do agree with. i can understand that a timeline is a good mechanism to keep everyone involved, and it is a brilliant soap opera if nothing else, but especially with qadri, i hope he starts making them as dramatic as he markets them.

These timelines are like powerplay and sessions of a Test match where one team(party) achieve something in it while other lose. Maybe most of us can't see it on screen but there is enough stuff going on behind the screen. If IK or TUQ had done something before tomorrow then the value of judicial report of yesterday had very less impact. If they had done something within first couple of days then they hadn't gained much attention from public. Spending 2 weeks in ISB made sure whole nation is involved dollar going up every day and stock market going down so PML N is on the losing end so far every day because they are the ruling party and all the pressure is on them. Politics is a game of achieving milestones and PTI and TUQ did really good so far. As a result PML N is on his knees and willing to accept 5 out of 6 PTI demands while they were not accepting even 1 of them before 12 August. I bet they will accept the 6th one now too because of the meeting with Army Chief yesterday which was not in a good mood.

 

[s28]

The 'consensus' with other political parties looks to be breaking down...

PPP, MQM want govt to offer ‘sacrifice’ to save democracy
By Amir Wasim
Updated about an hour ago

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) have put the onus of resolving the prevailing political crisis squarely on the government, asking it to “offer some sacrifice”.

“There is a need for some political actions. The government should have a big heart and offer some sacrifice,” MQM’s parliamentary leader in the National Assembly Dr Farooq Sattar said after having rounds of meetings with various political leaders, including Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) chief Dr Tahirul Qadri, over the past two days.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1128065/ppp-mqm-want-govt-to-offer-sacrifice-to-save-democracy

 

[Lords]

What's with these deadlines. Every day we hear that the next 24-48 hrs are crucial and game changing and they come and go and nothing much happens.

Will this test match result in a draw?

Pressure tactics and to feed the audience. If there is no deadline then people may leave.

Also everyone is waiting for the umpire to raise the finger.

 

[s28]

Gen Raheel, while stressing on an early resolution of the crisis, referred to the “overall security context” and said it did not allow for continued confrontation.

The military is carrying out a counter-militancy operation in North Waziristan, while skirmishes are continuing on the de-facto border with India.

He feared that prolonged agitation could be exploited by external elements.

The army chief was reportedly particularly concerned about the counter-rallies brought out by the ruling party in its support, the involvement of sectarian groups in pro-government rallies and reports about plans for use of force against the protesters.

The army pressure for quick resolution of the dispute compelled the government to resume its negotiations with the PTI that had hit an impasse on Saturday.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1128059/army-wants-immediate-political-settlement

 

[the Great Khan]

according to the twittersphere NS has his resignation ready but only as a "last" option. Also appeared "sweaty, nervous and not his usual arrogant self when meeting the COAS".

 

[Lords]

Some options being discussed are either SS will resign until a probe against him finishes for model town case

Or someone from PTI becomes V-PM to oversee the inquiry of poll rigging.

 

[s28]

PTI and PAT should not step back from demand for NS resignation now as intervention of Afzal Khan showed it was a sham election. NS has no democratic legitimacy. Storm PM House. I doubt Police or Army will have any willingness to defend a lame duck PM. Hopefully it can be a peaceful invasion just as last weeks Red Zone invasion was.

The arrogance of these people in the scale and intensity of their lies and manipulation is truly breathtaking. They must think Pakistani people are either very stupid or very passive and pathetic that even if they do wrong there will be no repurcussions.

But you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

 

[Lords]

Last round of negotiations failed with Imran. No more talks from now on as per IK.

Still waiting on what TUQ's plan of action is.

 

[Kianig89]

Ishaq dar entered ,s container expect a drop.scene

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

final over

 

[akamaka]

apparently some sealed documents delivered to TUQ container. End is near.

 

[srh]

Shahbaz Sharif should have resigned the day when innocents were killed by police in Lahore. He should have acted better than Narender Modi of India.

 

[s28]

ISLAMABAD: Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) for Islamabad released a fresh notification on Wednesday related to the law and order situation in the capital, DawnNews reported.

In the notification, the SSP said that the capital police will not be allowed to use force against the protesters.

The notification also restricts police personnel from baton-charging or teargas shelling unless given orders by magistrate.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1128128/ssp-islamabad-restricts-police-from-use-of-force

 

[dhump]

SLAMABAD: Chief of Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) Dr Tahirul Qadri said he had asked the government delegation headed by Finance Minister Ishaq Dar to immediately agree with two demands within couple of hours for little extension in a deadline for talks, ARY News reported.

According to details, Dr Tahirul Qadri said, “Government delegation had requested him to extend the deadline, to which I said that it cannot be extended at all, unless the government agrees upon two of our conditions, only then we will extend it that too for negotiations on other points of our agenda”.

Sources privy to the development told ARY News that the two conditions are:

1- Resignation of Punjab CM and nominated ministers in the FIR of Model Town incident

2- To provide the copy of the FIR after registration

He said the government delegation expressed its helplessness that it does not have the mandate to agree to the conditions and will have to consult the prime minister.

Qadri said, “I asked them to consult the prime minister and return to PAT sit-in venue by 9:30 pm”.

The PAT chief however declined to illustrate those two conditions, adding that, “I will make the government delegates announce those conditions officially”.



- See more at: http://arynews.tv/en/qadri-sets-two-conditions-for-extension-in-deadline/#sthash.SaDm7ROp.dpuf

 

[Kianig89]

Dar came with SS Resignation bas t loojs like wants the resignation of as well

 

[dhump]

So I think deal is nearly done SS will resign soon and will be nominated in FIR (with nothing to happen). TUQ will end the protest with some dignity in greater interest of national security/crisis (bla bla speech).

 

[dhump]

Dar came with SS Resignation bas t loojs like wants the resignation of as well

Sources privy to the development told ARY News that the two conditions are:

1- Resignation of Punjab CM and nominated ministers in the FIR of Model Town incident

2- To provide the copy of the FIR after registration

No most probably these are the demands by TUQ.

 

[Kianig89]

No most probably these are the demands by TUQ.

these are the 2 demands which Ishaq Dollar already agreed adn therefore gave him 2 hour extension however his other demand was Other ministers n Nawaz should also resign now gets the strike

 

[Kianig89]

IMran repeating his prevoius points where is the think tank same old (rubbish/facts) time is running out come on!

 

[Nostalgic]

It's interesting to watch JI's Siraj in all this. He has skillfully maneuvered his party into the role of mediator. They're allied to PTI, but haven't joined the march, and can be seen talking to both the government and PTI.

This is an important subplot of this saga. Soon people will forget the loose cannon Munawwar Hasan, and this guy will emerge as a voice of reason. This is dangerous.

 

[Square Drive]

What is Shahbaz's role in PML N?

 

[Nostalgic]

What is Shahbaz's role in PML N?

Consigliere, capo-regime, muscle, bad cop.

 

[Saeed]

Qadri saying, negotiations with government have completely failed.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

One thing is for sure, I haven´t seen better, greater, more inspirational and compelling speaker from Pakistan in my lifetime than Tahir-ul-Qadri sahib. He speaks with such motivation!

HE is pretty good . Shaikh rasheed ,Shebaz shareef and a few MQM guys (raza haroon etc ) aren't too bad either. That's if you are talking about their public speaking . The amount of following that TUQ can't be beat though .

 

[Square Drive]

Consigliere, capo-regime, muscle, bad cop.

Lol, but seriously, what's his role?

 

[Pak_Jazba]

So Pervez Rashid says they rejected the demands of PAT for FIR as they felt that the FIR was baseless.....

 

[akamaka]

So Pervez Rashid says they rejected the demands of PAT for FIR as they felt that the FIR was baseless.....

haha, what about how he had no answer as to why the report still hasn't been released


corrupt scum! this government needs to be removed don't care if they become shaheed or whatever

 

[dhump]

So Pervez Rashid says they rejected the demands of PAT for FIR as they felt that the FIR was baseless.....

Nothing better is expected from these "besharams".