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PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

I think you didn't get it. All the people I listed above are acceptable to IK whereas Maulana Diesel is not. Isn't that called political convenience?

Well I am not IK or PTI's lawyer! And im not a fan of bearded ppl in politics in general

though honestly speaking, Hafiz Saeed is accused by India. Dont think any politician has said anything negative against him

Munawwar Hussain is a sympathizer of Taliban but there are a lot. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong in that. Its just bad politics and a stupid opinion. Dont support this pov though.

The problem with Diesel and Burka Avenger is that they are hypocrites. The other guys stick to their opinion whatever it is whereas Fazlu and Burka say one thing but end up doing nothing
 
"N. Modi used to sell tea at a train station with his father. He worked his way up the ladder to become Prime Minister of India. On the other hand, Sharif Senior used his money to make his son, Nawaz Sharif (B.A. 3rd Class), Finance Minister. Nawaz Sharif then used the same means to become Prime Minister of Pakistan. Therein lies the reason for our failure and their success." Asad Sheikh 2014

But Modi would not have been able to work his way up the ladder if their was no continued democracy and some savior threw the whole process under the bus. Didn't the likes of Rajiv, Sonia groom their kids into politics? What if some savior had decided this was wrong and government should be overthrown, would Modi be in power today? Imran won 40 seats after one government completed one term. He just wanted to take a short cut instead of struggling like Modi did for years. Enough said
 
Well I am not IK or PTI's lawyer! And im not a fan of bearded ppl in politics in general

though honestly speaking, Hafiz Saeed is accused by India. Dont think any politician has said anything negative against him

Munawwar Hussain is a sympathizer of Taliban but there are a lot. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong in that. Its just bad politics and a stupid opinion. Dont support this pov though.

The problem with Diesel and Burka Avenger is that they are hypocrites. The other guys stick to their opinion whatever it is whereas Fazlu and Burka say one thing but end up doing nothing

Aren't you a PTI supporter though?

Do you think Hafiz Saeed is innocent or has no links wih LeT. Honest opinion.

You say you are not a fan of bearded ppl in politics which gives the impression that you consider yourself a liberal but you still think there is nothing ethically and morally wrong with being a sympathizer of a group that has murdered around 50,000 Pakistanis.


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Doesn't matter, it is still the same Election Commission.

You don't trust the system but you are happy to use it your benefit when it suits you. Doesn't make sense.

don't you know?

KP mein farishte elections karwa rahe hain.
:))

and what Insafians won't tell you is that the father of the guy who now had actually won this seat as an Independent, but got disqualified.
 
Aren't you a PTI supporter though?
Ideologically I support PPP and/or MQM and if there were honest people in these parties who actually followed their manifesto then it would be a no brainer for me. But unfortunately that has never been the case. Supporting PTI at some stances doesnt mean that I am a blind supporter and will support them at any thing. I find their economic and educational plan to have lot of merits and admire their record of decreasing corruption in KP and increasing tax revenue. Also there is no doubt about the fact that elections were not free and fair and clearly rigged (regardless of whether PML-N was involved in it.) So I support the struggle for electoral reform. And as the elections were not fair, they hold no legitimacy and hence the call for resignations is valid though it will probably not happen.

At the same, I did vehemently oppose the sympathy for Taliban and some statements passed in relation to that. There was merit in pursuing talks at the beginning but when it was obvious that they are failing, PTI should not have been the only party opposing action.

Happy?

Do you think Hafiz Saeed is innocent or has no links wih LeT. Honest opinion.
He has links to LeT but I haven't seen enough proof or care enough to really form a solid, knowledgeable opinion. In any case it has nothing whatsoever to do with the matter in hand or PTI.

You say you are not a fan of bearded ppl in politics which gives the impression that you consider yourself a liberal but you still think there is nothing ethically and morally wrong with being a sympathizer of a group that has murdered around 50,000 Pakistanis.
No, the point here is that Munawwar Hassan is not a hypocrite. He sticks to his opinion in all forums regardless of whether I support them or not. Same is not the case with Diesel who says one thing a=somewhere and sings a different tune at other places. Wikileaks was testament to that. And he has passed several disgusting comments about women participation in PTI and levelled baseless allegations like yahoodi lobby and whatnot which makes him a despicable person. This is the definition of a hypocrite mullah who thinks that having a beard gives him some moral authority or superiority over others.


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Answers in bold
 
don't you know?

KP mein farishte elections karwa rahe hain.
:))

and what Insafians won't tell you is that the father of the guy who now had actually won this seat as an Independent, but got disqualified.

RIP the logic :|

I don't think it's hard to understand, KP main farishtay election karwayein ya shaitaan, Imran has invited anyone to ask for recounts or verification. Can Nawaz "Not so" Sharif do the same? He wouldn't be suffering today if he had the courage to let the investigations go ahead on 4 constituencies :)
 
RIP the logic :|

I don't think it's hard to understand, KP main farishtay election karwayein ya shaitaan, Imran has invited anyone to ask for recounts or verification. Can Nawaz "Not so" Sharif do the same? He wouldn't be suffering today if he had the courage to let the investigations go ahead on 4 constituencies :)

well what your beloved hero didn't tell you is that neither he nor the PM or anybody else for that matter has the power to make such recounts happen, be it in KP or any other corner of the country.

that can only be ordered by the tribunals.
 
well what your beloved hero didn't tell you is that neither he nor the PM or anybody else for that matter has the power to make such recounts happen, be it in KP or any other corner of the country.

that can only be ordered by the tribunals.

Just goes to show how much you know about "democracy" and our "political system"

All parties are in favour of election audit. All that needs to be done is a resolution or a constitutional amendment to be approved in PARLIAMENT. Amendment could read that PM has the power to direct ECP to carry out a specific or a complete audit of general and by elections.

Remember Parliament is "Supreme" as it represents the "will of the people"

Job Done! obviously the above would only be done if these crooks in Parliament were really thinking about saving "Democracy" and not their own backside!
 
Just goes to show how much you know about "democracy" and our "political system"



Remember Parliament is "Supreme" as it represents the "will of the people"

Job Done! obviously the above would only be done if these crooks in Parliament were really thinking about saving "Democracy" and not their own backside!

Actually most countries in the world have election commission, courts, etc separate from Parliament. The conflict of interest otherwise is obvious. Imagine a prime minister who loses next election. Obviously he will stall and order recounts, etc
 
Just goes to show how much you know about "democracy" and our "political system"

All parties are in favour of election audit. All that needs to be done is a resolution or a constitutional amendment to be approved in PARLIAMENT. Amendment could read that PM has the power to direct ECP to carry out a specific or a complete audit of general and by elections.

Remember Parliament is "Supreme" as it represents the "will of the people"

Job Done! obviously the above would only be done if these crooks in Parliament were really thinking about saving "Democracy" and not their own backside!

Brilliant...so then the ECP will no longer be independent and will be under the thumb of the PM and answerable to him?

What a fantastic idea !!! Wonder what could go wrong with that?

Here we are demanding greater autonomy and transparency and Vegitto1 sahab wants to hand over the reins to the PM!

:14: :14:
 
Is it true that Imran said that Nawaz is involved in Ajmal getting banned? :facepalm: :)))

I am not up to date with today's affairs.
 
Finally, this thread is working. I have read disturbing news; not sure if true or not, Allahu Alim.

Pakistan Qadri protesters 'paid'


Thousands, led by former cricketer Imran Khan and cleric Tahirul Qadri, occupied parts of Islamabad, in an effort to topple the government. Much of Mr Khan's support thinned out as the weeks wore on. But some of Mr Qadri's supporters, who wished to leave, have told the BBC Urdu they were threatened by party leaders.Mr Qadri's Pakistan Awami Tehrik (PAT) party's deputy information secretary, Omar Riaz Abbasi, denied the party had paid or threatened protesters. "All the people in the 'revolution' march have come here of their own free will. No one forced them, or paid them money," he said.

Mr Qadri's supporters have appeared more resilient, with many setting up tent villages occupying central roads in Pakistan's capital.
But the BBC heard from students who said they had been paid to attend but also prevented from leaving, in an effort to recruit demonstrators and maintain the momentum of the protest.
"A local leader of Mr Qadri's party told my parents he was taking me away for Mr Qadri's 'revolution' march, and that I would come back in about three days' time," Naveed, 16, a 10th grade student from Bahawalpur region of Punjab, told the BBC.

His real name has been withheld for security reasons.He said his parents were paid 6,000 rupees ($60), which they accepted happily. He added that he came to Lahore with a contingent of 300 other school students from his area, all of whom were "hired" in the same way.He also said that some of the boys who sustained injuries during recent clashes with the police and received first aid at the hospital had also been refused permission to return to their homes."The party leaders told us they had their people posted on all bus stands and if they saw any of us trying to catch a bus, they would send us to the 'next world' and tell our families we were killed by the police," he said. Meanwhile, a resident of Gujranwala city near Lahore, Mohammad Aslam, told BBC that PAT activists "hired" around 100 women, most of them domestic workers, from the city's suburbs. "Early last month there were announcements made from loudspeakers mounted on vehicles in these areas, offering 10,000 rupees ($100) per head to women who would join PAT's march," he said. "They said they would pay an additional 5,000 or more to women who would bring along infants or children under 10 years of age." The PAT's spokesman rejected all these allegations, adding that Mr Qadri had recently allowed about 800 protesters to go home because they had school exams coming up or other reasons to leave.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29106266


^ I have heard the similar story directly from my family source, circulating in Rawalpindi, that PTI is paying handsome money to buy more followers prior to Azadi march. I didn't bring this matter before because of lack of evidence. Now, there is already news about this which confirms the rumour to be true, Allahu Alim. That also may explain why PAT outnumberred PTI in support, Allahu Alim.
 
Brilliant...so then the ECP will no longer be independent and will be under the thumb of the PM and answerable to him?

What a fantastic idea !!! Wonder what could go wrong with that?

Here we are demanding greater autonomy and transparency and Vegitto1 sahab wants to hand over the reins to the PM!

:14: :14:

1. As if the election commission is not already under PM's thumb.

2. This is a solution to the fix the current dead lock - And with qualifying provisions it can be used for a couple of elections until the ECP does actually become fully autonomous.

3. [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION] - I don't know whether you are aware but 90 days prior to elections an interim-setup is put in place and therefore the scenario you speak of will never arise. It will always be the newly elected PM would need to order an audit IF such a situation arises as the one we have today.

4. Like I mentioned, without going into too much detail, the idea is that when such a situation arises like we have today then the Parliament, representing the people, should be able to direct the ECP to specifically look into constituency and give reports. I don't see how more transparency and checks can be a bad thing really.


And Please if we are discussing issues then let us stick to ground realities
 
Treating IDPs as the nation’s heroes


It was a hot summer day on June 15 when our security forces began the inevitable Zarb-e-Azb military operation against miscreants residing in North Waziristan Agency, killing hundreds of terrorists and causing hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate the area.

While the armed forces were focusing on targeting the terrorists and their hideouts, the civil administration started making arrangements for taking care of the IDPs. The Ministry of States and Frontier Regions (SAFRON) was immediately made the focal ministry for ensuring coordinated efforts in providing relief to the people.

This was not an ordinary undertaking. A staggering one million displaced persons have been registered to date. Although our suave federal minister for SAFRON Abdul Qadir Baloch has informed that final figure of displaced persons would only be available after their verification by NADRA, yet the numbers are expected to be huge.

Rather than being overwhelmed by this Herculean task, the entire government machinery, under the directions of the prime minister, galvanised all possible resources and came forward to facilitate the displaced families.

Dislocation is always difficult. Doing it in peak summertime is more challenging. Add Ramazan to the equation and it becomes a real test of one’s character. Keeping this in view the government has taken numerous measures to make this phase as comfortable for the dislocated families as possible.

The federal government has reportedly provided around six billion rupees for the IDPs. In addition, employees of the federal government and the army have donated one day’s salary for their brethren. During his visit to an IDP camp in Bannu, the prime minister announced that each family would be paid Rs40,000 during the first month. To disburse the relief amount in an efficient and transparent manner the Fata Disaster Management Authority (FDMA) signed an agreement with Zong cellular phone company, which has been highly appreciated by the people.

Due to local customs, the people of the tribal areas do not like to live in camps and most families have chosen to live with their relatives or in rented accommodation at other places in the country, mostly within K-P.

For the few families living in the camps and some in school buildings, round the clock provision of electricity has been ensured. Temporary mosques built and medical facilities were made available to them. Polio vaccines have been administered to every individual coming out of the agency.

Steps have also been taken for the well being of cattle and livestock with mobile veterinary clinics established in Bannu, Lakki Marwat, Dera Ismail Khan, Karak and Tank to treat and vaccinate them giving protection against different seasonal and viral infections.

To provide better medical facilities to the IDPs, PIMS hospital Islamabad has been given control over the Bannu District Hospital. Two mobile hospitals equipped with six beds, operation theaters, X-ray machines and a laboratory have been stationed in Bannu.

The elders and notables of North Waziristan have expressed their gratitude to the government for undertaking the military operation so that they can live freely in their homeland. In a recent meeting with Mr Baloch the local tribesmen extended complete support to the government’s action and said they wanted to get rid of those miscreants who had held the people of these areas hostage for the last many years. Grand nephew of the Faqir of Ipi, who was leading the jirga, said “the people of North Waziristan are ready to undergo any hardship for the cause of peace in Pakistan and requested the government to take all measures to not only clear the area of miscreants but also to stop their reemergence.”

Some ill-informed people have naively criticised the government by suggesting that elaborate arrangements should have been in place before the commencement of the military operation for taking care of IDPs. Of course, this could not have been done as it would have compromised the secrecy of the entire Zarb-e-Azb scheme, taking the edge away from the government.

Operation Zarb-e-Azb will have four phases: sorting out the terrorists, launching ground operation to clear the terrorist hideouts, reconstruction of damaged houses and infrastructure, and the return of displaced persons to their homeland to start their life afresh.

Successful completion of all these stages will take time. It is heartening to note that the government’s foremost priority is that the sacrifices of the people of North Waziristan must not go waste. Right now the government is in the process of assessing the needs of this area in the short and long term to allocate sufficient amount of funds for rebuilding the infrastructure, return of IDPs and their rehabilitation. It would be a major reconstruction effort involving renewal of social contract between the tribes and the State of Pakistan.

Taking care of the displaced families is not the responsibility of the state alone. It is binding upon each and every Pakistani to come forward to the help of these people. They have sacrificed their households for the sake of peace in the country. The best way to acknowledge their sacrifices is to provide them best treatment and best possible facilities during their temporary stay away from home. The government is doing a lot, but the people of Pakistan must also do their bit.

The displaced persons of North Waziristan are the heroes of the nation. They have sacrificed their today for the nation’s tomorrow. The hardship they have to undergo in getting dislocated is crucial in ensuring lasting peace in Pakistan. Therefore, one would wish all political parties of the country and all segments of society to show unity and solidarity among their ranks and support the government’s efforts in this regard.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/746477/treating-idps-as-the-nations-heroes/


^ Read the bold-part where it highlights good point. Federal government has been vocal while provincial government where most of IDPs located in Peshawar was ignored while its priority is shifted to Azadi march wasting unneccessary money where those money could have been helpful to IDPs. I am actually glad Allah has chosen PMLN over PTI. I shrudder to think what would happen if PTI continues to maintain peace negotiation after attack on Karachi Airport. Wasting money on unneccessary dharnas rather than on development of the state. Having Imran Khan as federal government could have gone a lot worse, Allahu Alim. As provincial government, he has already ignored the attention of Peshawar leaving its in tatter for merely illusion march that appear to be bleeding Pakistan's economy costing hard-earned money by businesses down the drain.
 
indeed ECP are under PM's thumb, that's why the tribunals have removed 10 PMLN candidates from their seats.

you only weaken your own argument when you bring in idiotic conspiracy theories.
 
Treating IDPs as the nation’s heroes


It was a hot summer day on June 15 when our security forces began the inevitable Zarb-e-Azb military operation against miscreants residing in North Waziristan Agency, killing hundreds of terrorists and causing hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate the area.

While the armed forces were focusing on targeting the terrorists and their hideouts, the civil administration started making arrangements for taking care of the IDPs. The Ministry of States and Frontier Regions (SAFRON) was immediately made the focal ministry for ensuring coordinated efforts in providing relief to the people.

This was not an ordinary undertaking. A staggering one million displaced persons have been registered to date. Although our suave federal minister for SAFRON Abdul Qadir Baloch has informed that final figure of displaced persons would only be available after their verification by NADRA, yet the numbers are expected to be huge.

Rather than being overwhelmed by this Herculean task, the entire government machinery, under the directions of the prime minister, galvanised all possible resources and came forward to facilitate the displaced families.

Dislocation is always difficult. Doing it in peak summertime is more challenging. Add Ramazan to the equation and it becomes a real test of one’s character. Keeping this in view the government has taken numerous measures to make this phase as comfortable for the dislocated families as possible.

The federal government has reportedly provided around six billion rupees for the IDPs. In addition, employees of the federal government and the army have donated one day’s salary for their brethren. During his visit to an IDP camp in Bannu, the prime minister announced that each family would be paid Rs40,000 during the first month. To disburse the relief amount in an efficient and transparent manner the Fata Disaster Management Authority (FDMA) signed an agreement with Zong cellular phone company, which has been highly appreciated by the people.

Due to local customs, the people of the tribal areas do not like to live in camps and most families have chosen to live with their relatives or in rented accommodation at other places in the country, mostly within K-P.

For the few families living in the camps and some in school buildings, round the clock provision of electricity has been ensured. Temporary mosques built and medical facilities were made available to them. Polio vaccines have been administered to every individual coming out of the agency.

Steps have also been taken for the well being of cattle and livestock with mobile veterinary clinics established in Bannu, Lakki Marwat, Dera Ismail Khan, Karak and Tank to treat and vaccinate them giving protection against different seasonal and viral infections.

To provide better medical facilities to the IDPs, PIMS hospital Islamabad has been given control over the Bannu District Hospital. Two mobile hospitals equipped with six beds, operation theaters, X-ray machines and a laboratory have been stationed in Bannu.

The elders and notables of North Waziristan have expressed their gratitude to the government for undertaking the military operation so that they can live freely in their homeland. In a recent meeting with Mr Baloch the local tribesmen extended complete support to the government’s action and said they wanted to get rid of those miscreants who had held the people of these areas hostage for the last many years. Grand nephew of the Faqir of Ipi, who was leading the jirga, said “the people of North Waziristan are ready to undergo any hardship for the cause of peace in Pakistan and requested the government to take all measures to not only clear the area of miscreants but also to stop their reemergence.”

Some ill-informed people have naively criticised the government by suggesting that elaborate arrangements should have been in place before the commencement of the military operation for taking care of IDPs. Of course, this could not have been done as it would have compromised the secrecy of the entire Zarb-e-Azb scheme, taking the edge away from the government.

Operation Zarb-e-Azb will have four phases: sorting out the terrorists, launching ground operation to clear the terrorist hideouts, reconstruction of damaged houses and infrastructure, and the return of displaced persons to their homeland to start their life afresh.

Successful completion of all these stages will take time. It is heartening to note that the government’s foremost priority is that the sacrifices of the people of North Waziristan must not go waste. Right now the government is in the process of assessing the needs of this area in the short and long term to allocate sufficient amount of funds for rebuilding the infrastructure, return of IDPs and their rehabilitation. It would be a major reconstruction effort involving renewal of social contract between the tribes and the State of Pakistan.

Taking care of the displaced families is not the responsibility of the state alone. It is binding upon each and every Pakistani to come forward to the help of these people. They have sacrificed their households for the sake of peace in the country. The best way to acknowledge their sacrifices is to provide them best treatment and best possible facilities during their temporary stay away from home. The government is doing a lot, but the people of Pakistan must also do their bit.

The displaced persons of North Waziristan are the heroes of the nation. They have sacrificed their today for the nation’s tomorrow. The hardship they have to undergo in getting dislocated is crucial in ensuring lasting peace in Pakistan. Therefore, one would wish all political parties of the country and all segments of society to show unity and solidarity among their ranks and support the government’s efforts in this regard.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/746477/treating-idps-as-the-nations-heroes/


^ Read the bold-part where it highlights good point. Federal government has been vocal while provincial government where most of IDPs located in Peshawar was ignored while its priority is shifted to Azadi march wasting unneccessary money where those money could have been helpful to IDPs. I am actually glad Allah has chosen PMLN over PTI. I shrudder to think what would happen if PTI continues to maintain peace negotiation after attack on Karachi Airport. Wasting money on unneccessary dharnas rather than on development of the state. Having Imran Khan as federal government could have gone a lot worse, Allahu Alim. As provincial government, he has already ignored the attention of Peshawar leaving its in tatter for merely illusion march that appear to be bleeding Pakistan's economy costing hard-earned money by businesses down the drain.

BOOM! you just used religion in your political argument! and hence I rest my case that you use religion to make a discussion awkward and/or to prevent others to question or rebut your statement.
 
IDPs protest PTI, PAT indifference to their plight in Bannu

The protesters said that PTI and PAT had occupied Islamabad and started a sit-in for an indefinite time and that the move was hiding problems of the IDPs from the world.

BANNU: Internally displaced persons of North Waziristan staged a protest in Bannu on Friday against Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) Imran Khan and Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) chief Dr Tahirul Qadri for hijacking media attention towards their protests in Islamabad.

IDPs in Bannu took out a protest rally from Milad Park, Bannu City and marched through various districts to the Bannu Press Club. The protesters held placards which were inscribed with slogans against K-P government, Imran Khan and Dr Tahirul Qadri.

Led by North Wazirstan Affected People Committee president Nisar Ali Khan, the protesters said that PTI and PAT had occupied Islamabad and started a sit-in for an indefinite time and that the move was hiding problems of the IDPs from the world. They termed sit-ins by both leaders as a drama.

The protesters demanded that the PTI chairman should remove ‘Khan’ from his name because he was not representing their interests. They argued that if he was a leader representing them, he would have been there with the IDPs rather than dancing and singing with a mob in Islamabad.
The speakers further claimed that relief items that were dispatched for the IDPs were being sold in the market openly.

Further, the IDPs claimed that they were being evicted from government schools without providing an alternate residence, and that they were being provided substandard food items. They claimed they were being fleeced for their domiciles and identity cards.

PM asks K-P governor to provide every possible facility to IDPs

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on Friday asked Governor Khyber-Pakhtunkhawa (K-P) to provide every possible facility to the internally displaced persons (IDPs), Radio Pakistan reported.

Chairing a high level meeting with Governor House in Peshawar regarding the Lowari Tunnel and situation of IDPs, the prime minister was briefed about the facilities being provided to the IDPs.

The premier said that rehabilitation of IDPs was their top priority


http://tribune.com.pk/story/752399/idps-protest-pti-pat-indifference-to-their-plight-in-bannu/


^ Indeed PAT+PTI is beghairat party.
 
BOOM! you just used religion in your political argument! and hence I rest my case that you use religion to make a discussion awkward and/or to prevent others to question or rebut your statement.

Allah means A Creator. That is not restricted to religion only. That being said, if i am using verses from Holy Qur'an or Hadith, then quote me back. As usual, resorting to accusing without evidence. I am not surprised.

Allah in Arabic means A CREATOR. Likewise, my name is also Islamic as well. You are gonna use that as excuse to accuse me for misusing Islam? Your lust for PTI has driven you clinically insane. May Allah (SWT) helps you to get recover, Aameen!
 
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indeed ECP are under PM's thumb, that's why the tribunals have removed 10 PMLN candidates from their seats.

you only weaken your own argument when you bring in idiotic conspiracy theories.

So out of that whole post you nitpick this one point and ignore the central argument!

Whether ECP is under PM's thumb is my opinion, nor you or I have evidence to prove our opinion as true.

Moving to the main issue, Parliament has the power to bring in an amendment to fix this situation if they wanted to. They don't want to strengthen democracy as it would weaken their hold on power!
 
Allah means A Creator. That is not restricted to religion only. That being said, if i am using verses from Holy Qur'an or Hadith, then quote me back. As usual, resorting to accusing without evidence. I am not surprised.

Allah has chosen PMLN over PTI - I leave it for others to decide whether that qualifies as bringing religion into politics
 
Allah has chosen PMLN over PTI - I leave it for others to decide whether that qualifies as bringing religion into politics

Everything that happens under Allah's Will. Both Good and Bad. Seriously, you are derailing the thread.

I am done talking to you. You already made grave accusation in the past which you are yet to present the evidence for it. You are liar. I am done talking to you. Anything you say cannot be taken seriously. [MENTION=1024]Vegitto1[/MENTION]
 
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Everything that happens under Allah's Will. Both Good and Bad. Seriously, you are derailing the thread.

I am done talking to you. You already made grave accusation in the past which you are yet to present the evidence for it. You are liar. I am done talking to you. Anything you say cannot be taken seriously. [MENTION=1024]Vegitto1[/MENTION]

Stop crying. You kept asking me to show you where you use religion in political discussions and I just did. Applying your logic of "Everything that happens under Allah's Will. Both Good and Bad."

1. This Dharna is Allah's will
2. The flood was Allah's will to punish the people for not coming to the dharna
3. Women dancing at the Dharna is Allah's will
4. Army hating Nawaz Sharif is Allah's will
5. Nawaz Sharif will be thrown out and that will be Allah's will
6. Whatever TUQ speaks is Allah's will

And I can go on and on and on! and since you have decided that everything happening is Allah's will then why are you even in here debating this matter and taking sides? Whichever side wins you should be happy because it will be Allah's will so stop taking sides ;)
 
Bw3nyN1CEAAfqZy.jpg
 
Oversimplification, gross generalization, cheap jokes and ridiculous analogies, that's HN in a nutshell.....I guess appealing to the masses.

I have made many observations about the posters around here, but this one, which has gone wrong, has shocked me the most. I expected you to be a big fan of Hassan Nisar.


Hassan Nisar on the PTI march after visiting it.

Thanks for sharing this. Added to my "To do list". Will be fun;-)!
 

All this PTI, PML-N, marches debates aside, I find it amazing how a book containing laws and clauses after all can be considered so sacred. It baffles me! I am not implying that you should do things that are outside the law, but the way the words are used about it ever since these sit-ins have started.
 
All this PTI, PML-N, marches debates aside, I find it amazing how a book containing laws and clauses after all can be considered so sacred. It baffles me! I am not implying that you should do things that are outside the law, but the way the words are used about it ever since these sit-ins have started.

Lol, exactly. However there is logic behind this madness.

Quran is our holy book and one thinks a 1000 times before questioning it. Now these crooks sat in Parliament are trying to make it taboo to question the constitution or the democratic process so that they can feed whatever nonsense they want to the the uneducated masses in its name and people will think 1000 times before questioning the legitimacy of their actions.

Thanks to TUQ - Everyone is getting educated about our constitution during the afternoon session. The get lectures from Qadri and later on Imran Khan provides practical and real examples of its failures.
 
I want someone who's anti IK to answer me the following:

1) was the election rigged? yes, according to the interior minister and members of the house. If that is the case do you consider this house legitimate? if yes why?

2) What initiatives has this govt or the previous one taken to alleviate the desperation in the lives of the normal average Pakistani?
name some major reforms that are now bearing fruit or will bear some fruit.

3) What forward planning and forecasting has been done to ensure that the constitutional right of free education for everyone is being carried out. If none then isn't this anti constitutional and shouldn't it be challenged?

4) Are the people of Pakistan better off now then they were five years ago or ten years ago? if yes show me how and if no why not?
 
Lol, exactly. However there is logic behind this madness.

Quran is our holy book and one thinks a 1000 times before questioning it. Now these crooks sat in Parliament are trying to make it taboo to question the constitution or the democratic process so that they can feed whatever nonsense they want to the the uneducated masses in its name and people will think 1000 times before questioning the legitimacy of their actions.

Thanks to TUQ - Everyone is getting educated about our constitution during the afternoon session. The get lectures from Qadri and later on Imran Khan provides practical and real examples of its failures.

Yup, Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri deserves a lot of credit for the fact that he brings up a lot of references from the constitution on almost daily basis. I myself have gained a lot of knowledge about it through him.

.... 1) was the election rigged? yes, according to the interior minister and members of the house. If that is the case do you consider this house legitimate? if yes why?....

I have heard about this a lot of times, what exactly does this reference mean? What did the Interior Minister say in relevance to rigging in the elections?
 
Yup, Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri deserves a lot of credit for the fact that he brings up a lot of references from the constitution on almost daily basis. I myself have gained a lot of knowledge about it through him.



I have heard about this a lot of times, what exactly does this reference mean? What did the Interior Minister say in relevance to rigging in the elections?

He said that 40-50 k votes can't be verified in each constituency and some dimwit burgers took it to mean that 40-50 k votes had been rigged in each constituency.
 
Yup, Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri deserves a lot of credit for the fact that he brings up a lot of references from the constitution on almost daily basis. I myself have gained a lot of knowledge about it through him.



I have heard about this a lot of times, what exactly does this reference mean? What did the Interior Minister say in relevance to rigging in the elections?

The interior minister has admitted that in nearly every halka there were a substantial number of unsubstantiated votes or spoiled/jaali votes. The numbers were well into their thousands in each halka. As a result during the NA session the majority of MP's agreed with this and said the election was rigged due to the large number of these "jaali" votes.
 
He said that 40-50 k votes can't be verified in each constituency and some dimwit burgers took it to mean that 40-50 k votes had been rigged in each constituency.

its actually close to 70k and if that's the case the election itself was meaningless but thanks for the insult.
 
He said that 40-50 k votes can't be verified in each constituency and some dimwit burgers took it to mean that 40-50 k votes had been rigged in each constituency.

Vote cannot be verified equates to: We don't know whether these votes went to PTI or PMLN or PPP etc. So these votes are classed as nul and void.

EXAMPLE

Total votes Polled: 55,000

PTI candidate gets: 20,000
PMLN candidate gets: 25,0000

Unverified votes: 10,000

----------
1. As you can see that the victory margin is less than the number of rejected votes. Therefore a doubt is created as to why so many votes were rejected.

2. No record has been kept as to which polling station rejected how many votes. For all we know these rejected votes could have been from Polling Stations A - B and C - which were PTI stronghold. The record has not been kept (it should have been kept as per the rules) and hence doubt has arisen.

This has happened in majority of the cases and therefore the validity of the whole process has been brought into question. Why were so many votes rejected? Which polling booths were they from? Who is responsible? Has anyone been punished?

Those 15,000 rejected votes could have been the difference between a victory and a loss!

Therefore it is very dimwit of you to take the definitive approach and say that this could not amount to rigging.
 
Vote cannot be verified equates to: We don't know whether these votes went to PTI or PMLN or PPP etc. So these votes are classed as nul and void.

EXAMPLE

Total votes Polled: 55,000

PTI candidate gets: 20,000
PMLN candidate gets: 25,0000

Unverified votes: 10,000

----------
1. As you can see that the victory margin is less than the number of rejected votes. Therefore a doubt is created as to why so many votes were rejected.

2. No record has been kept as to which polling station rejected how many votes. For all we know these rejected votes could have been from Polling Stations A - B and C - which were PTI stronghold. The record has not been kept (it should have been kept as per the rules) and hence doubt has arisen.

This has happened in majority of the cases and therefore the validity of the whole process has been brought into question. Why were so many votes rejected? Which polling booths were they from? Who is responsible? Has anyone been punished?

Those 15,000 rejected votes could have been the difference between a victory and a loss!

Therefore it is very dimwit of you to take the definitive approach and say that this could not amount to rigging.

excellent post and a better explanation than I could manage. bravo.
 
It could or could not amount to rigging, what's your point? There is not a definitive link between magnetic ink not being used and the election being rigged. Ik is misattributing words to the interior minister which, imo, is the same thing as what NS did with the army. Another point to ponder is that it was PPP and ECP's decision not to use magnetic ink, why should nawaz sharif resign over it? If you are saying that PM should resign so that an investigation can take place, you are naturally implying that PM has control over the courts of this country, in which case the result of the investigation would be null and void and the priority would be to work on the seperation of legislative and judiciary, something IK has no words for, too busy asking for resignation of the PM and rulings by the same courts he doesn't trust.
 
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It could or could not amount to rigging, what's your point? There is not a definitive link between magnetic ink not being used and the election being rigged. Another point to ponder is that it was PPP and ECP's decision not to use magnetic ink, why should nawaz sharif resign over it? If you are saying that PM should resign so that an investigation can take place, you are naturally implying that PM has control over the courts of this country, in which case the result of the investigation would be null and void and the priority would be to work on the seperation of legislative and judiciary, something IK has no words for, too busy asking for resignation of the PM and rulings by the same courts he doesn't trust.

the election is suspect and not verifiable and hence null and void. Regardless of whether NS was involved in rigging or not.
 
My dear, dear friends. It was thoroughly refreshing to see you smile and laugh/poke fun here, for once. No, truly.. It does work in diffusing the "kasheedgi" here in this thread - and I'm certainly not going to stop you all from laughing away (even at me) if you really want to! :) :)

But in an alternate universe....

good. very good for you to have proved me wrong. now i´ll laugh at myself. :))):))):))):))):)):))). but its not ANYONE´s fault because that´s exactly the statement they´d issued.

see this link 1st

http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/fyrth/

see the statement issued on 5th sept.

Q: Media reports said that China has cancelled President Xi Jinping's visit to Pakistan out of security concerns. Can you confirm that?

A: China and Pakistan are friendly neighbors enjoying all-weather friendship and comprehensive cooperation. We have maintained close high-level exchanges. Both sides are in close communication on the next step of such exchanges. It is worth pointing out that we have never released any information about President Xi's visit to Pakistan officially. So, there is no basis to say we are about to cancel anything.

As for the current security situation in Pakistan, we hope relevant parties in Pakistan can work together while bearing in mind the fundamental interests of the state and the people, and jointly safeguard national security.

link.
http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/fyrth/t1188665.htm

however on 6th sept they issued a different statement.

Q: It is reported that the Pakistani side announced that President Xi Jinping's visit to Pakistan has been postponed. Please confirm that.

A: China and Pakistan have been maintaining communication for some time on President's Xi Jinping's state visit to Pakistan in mid September, and have made productive preparation for this visit. In view of the current political situation in Pakistan, the Governments of China and Pakistan have mutually agreed to postponement of the state visit of President Xi Jinping to Pakistan, which was scheduled to take place later this month. New dates for President Xi Jinping's visit to Pakistan, at an early date, are being finalized through diplomatic channels.

Both countries underline that China and Pakistan are time-tested all-weather friends. Both sides attach high importance to the visit of President Xi Jinping to Pakistan, as early as possible, for promoting mutually beneficial cooperation between the two

link.
http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/fyrth/t1188865.htm

If IK is centering his stance on morality and specifically, honesty in words, then he should refrain from lying himself.

I don't condone NS' lies, but IK is clearly taking it too far now.

so its 1st established that its not anyone´s fault. like geo news did with song " jhoot bole kawa kaatey" on their channel you too are accusing him of lying in this instance whereas the simple fact is that IK was misinformed, like ALL OF US WERE ON 5TH SEPT. i´m a neutral but you cant accuse IK of lying.

dunno about others but my issue with nawaz´s specific lie is is with regard to him lying in parliament that Tuq & IK involved army. no way there´s room in that to conclude that Nawaz was misinformed ! but of course you never know to what extents nawaz uncle supporters will go to defend him.
 
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its actually close to 70k and if that's the case the election itself was meaningless but thanks for the insult.

I don't know why you are taking the insult personally. Afaik, you are just repeating what you heard Imran Khan say, you are not the one who equated "non-verifiable" to "rigging".
 
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the election is suspect and not verifiable and hence null and void. Regardless of whether NS was involved in rigging or not.

Doesn't work like that. Bush's Florida win was suspect and he became President for 2 terms. In most democracies you will always be accused of some level of rigging at any point of time
 
the election is suspect and not verifiable and hence null and void. Regardless of whether NS was involved in rigging or not.

So you admit that CNAK didn't say rigging took place and most insafiyaans, from the top leadership to the keyboard warriors sitting in america, have been lying their brains out while demanding for the resignation of NS because of what he said about not asking the army to intervene?
 
actually I heard ch.nisar say it in the assembly I believe..(unless I'm going senile). But it is now an undeniable fact that there were thousands of unverifiable votes, see post 3953 by veggito. That in itself is worth investigating and casts doubt on the election.
 
So you admit that CNAK didn't say rigging took place and most insafiyaans, from the top leadership to the keyboard warriors sitting in america, have been lying their brains out while demanding for the resignation of NS because of what he said about not asking the army to intervene?

actually I heard ch.nisar say it in the assembly I believe..(unless I'm going senile). But it is now an undeniable fact that there were thousands of unverifiable votes, see post 3953 by veggito. That in itself is worth investigating and casts doubt on the election.

He said a proper audit is not possible as 60-70,000 votes in each constituency are unverifiable.
 
actually I heard ch.nisar say it in the assembly I believe..(unless I'm going senile). But it is now an undeniable fact that there were thousands of unverifiable votes, see post 3953 by veggito. That in itself is worth investigating and casts doubt on the election.

Well, I am an open-minded individual. I am ready to stop thinking of PTI as a party of liars when I see a video of CNAK saying rigging took place.
 
Well, I am an open-minded individual. I am ready to stop thinking of PTI as a party of liars when I see a video of CNAK saying rigging took place.

he didn't say rigging took place he said the votes were unverified. The rest of the house for example ch.aitzaz ashen said rigging took place. and many others. there seemed to be a consensus on the issue in the last two NA sessions. PTI's contention is that this many unverified votes require and investigation and smack of dhandli.
 
he didn't say rigging took place he said the votes were unverified. The rest of the house for example ch.aitzaz ashen said rigging took place. and many others. there seemed to be a consensus on the issue in the last two NA sessions. PTI's contention is that this many unverified votes require and investigation and smack of dhandli.

Except Imran Khan has been using the interior minister as an authority argument, not some has-been barrister whose star faded 7 years ago.
 
[MENTION=137324]KarachiKing[/MENTION] [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] [MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION] [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION]

I put it to you guys that this whole "unverifiable votes due to the non-use of magnetic ink" is complete nonsense.

1. Magnetic Ink as per the rules was not used HOWEVER normal ink was used.

2. Therefore to say that thumb impressions cannot be verified is complete nonsense because even today when we take thumb impressions from our clients in Pakistan on stamp papers it is normal ink that is used and it is VERIFIABLE.

3. We live in a day and age where finger-prints are lifted from objects (without ink) and are verified and you want me to believe that just because REGULAR ink was used these thumb impressions are unverifiable?

Does that make any sense? Is there any merit in this cover-up? The former NADRA Chairman was removed because he knew that regardless of the fact whether magnetic ink was used or not, thumb impression could be verified - Imagine then the embarrassment the government would have to face when +10000 ballot papers had the same thumb impression. And we will know who that person is because they will be in the NADRA database. And we will then know who they are and why they did it.

Therefore to avoid the ultimate embarrassment, this magnetic ink story is being fed to the masses and thumb impression verification is being avoided.
 
[MENTION=137324]KarachiKing[/MENTION] [MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] [MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION] [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION]

I put it to you guys that this whole "unverifiable votes due to the non-use of magnetic ink" is complete nonsense.

1. Magnetic Ink as per the rules was not used HOWEVER normal ink was used.

2. Therefore to say that thumb impressions cannot be verified is complete nonsense because even today when we take thumb impressions from our clients in Pakistan on stamp papers it is normal ink that is used and it is VERIFIABLE.

3. We live in a day and age where finger-prints are lifted from objects (without ink) and are verified and you want me to believe that just because REGULAR ink was used these thumb impressions are unverifiable?

Does that make any sense? Is there any merit in this cover-up? The former NADRA Chairman was removed because he knew that regardless of the fact whether magnetic ink was used or not, thumb impression could be verified - Imagine then the embarrassment the government would have to face when +10000 ballot papers had the same thumb impression. And we will know who that person is because they will be in the NADRA database. And we will then know who they are and why they did it.

Therefore to avoid the ultimate embarrassment, this magnetic ink story is being fed to the masses and thumb impression verification is being avoided.

Bhai Meray, yeh Imran Khan ko bhi ja kar bata do jis ki awaaz beh gahe hay keh keh kay "Interior Minister ne kaha 70 000 votes...".
 
Bhai Meray, yeh Imran Khan ko bhi ja kar bata do jis ki awaaz beh gahe hay keh keh kay "Interior Minister ne kaha 70 000 votes...".

Lol, It is much easier from a political point of view to stick to what the other side has admitted on the house of floor.


GOVT: 70,000 votes unverifiable
PTI: Elections need to happen again

GOVT: votes are verifiable
PTI: Verify them then = Elections again IF rigging proven.

So politically, it makes sense to go with the first one as we can simply demand re-elections.
 
Lol, It is much easier from a political point of view to stick to what the other side has admitted on the house of floor.


GOVT: 70,000 votes unverifiable
PTI: Elections need to happen again

GOVT: votes are verifiable
PTI: Verify them then = Elections again IF rigging proven.

So politically, it makes sense to go with the first one as we can simply demand re-elections.

So, from practical point of view, votes are not verifiable since the main parties have said they are not. It doesn't matter in the context of this march that simple ink is actually a legitimate system.
 
So, from practical point of view, votes are not verifiable since the main parties have said they are not. It doesn't matter in the context of this march that simple ink is actually a legitimate system.

From a practical and political point of view it makes more sense to go along with the version given by the Interior Minister. " Around 70,000 votes in each constituency are non-verifiable".

After the Interior Minister made that statement on the floor of Parliament, the burden was shifted from PTI onto the election commission and those who were the beneficiaries of this negligence/recklessness (the current government)

Now it is the governments responsibility to either A) revise its statement made on the floor of Parliament or B) call re-elections.

IF government goes for option A, then they will have to agree with PTI's demands which are:

1. That a Judicial Commission of 3 Supreme Court judges, including the Chief Justice of Pakistan should look into the irregularities of election 2013 and to determine whether the elections were rigged on a national level. the Judicial Commission will present its findings within 30 days and these will be final and made public

(PMLN Response: The Judges will be appointed by PMLN - No agreement on time-limit - No agreement as to whether the report will be made public and whether it will be challengeable)

2.The Judicial Commission will appoint a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) which will have full authority to look into irregularities and will receive full cooperation from all relevant departments.

(PMLN Response: PMLN has agreed to this. HOWEVER since JIT is to be appointed by Judicial Commission judges, to which PMLN has not agreed, their agreement to this becomes irrelevant.)

3. Election Commission will be replaced.

(PMLN: Agreed in Principle)

4. Heads of NADRA, FIA etc. will be appointed with PTI's approval

(PMLN Response: Appointments will be made after consultation with all concerned parties. PMLN is trying to say that PPP, ANP, MQM, JUI-F etc. will all have a say when it comes to appointments, and most likely these will be made on a majority vote basis not unanimously. PTI will not agree to this as it has become quite clear that it is PTI vs. The Rest)

5. PM steps down for 30 days so that the investigation is carried out without any political interference and/or pressure.

(PMLN Response: Disagree)

6. If systematic rigging is found then re-elections! An interim setup will be put in place which will have the authority to make electoral reforms ahead of the elections,

(PMLN: Agreed in Principle)

Another issue is over Terms of Reference (TORs) as to what will be classed as "systematic rigging" and that is a whole other debate all togehter.
 
Nawaz-Shrif-Acting-Like-An-Elephant-Funny-pakistani-politician-image.jpg


What about this one [MENTION=2071]saadibaba[/MENTION] - how does Nawaz Sharif look in this pic?
 
Lol, Dawn having fun with IK. This pic makes him look like a lunatic.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1130872/imran-in-battle-of-nerves-with-pm-nawaz

Not everything published in dawn bashes Imran and PTI. Since being away from Pakistan for years you make your opinion by following news channels/websites, but following articles make some valid points.

Choice before us

By Muhammad Zubair Khan

A PIVOTAL argument of Ibn Khaldun’s Muqaddimah is the need for a powerful, just authority that protects citizens of a civilised state from the excesses of more powerful citizens, who by the nature of mankind are prone to aggression and greed. The 14th-century scholar’s argument cannot be more apt than in present-day Pakistan.

In theory, Pakistan’s institutions through their collective roles are the ‘powerful and just’ authority, for protection of citizens. Unfortunately, we are increasingly witnessing the failure of institutions and government in providing justice to citizens in all aspects of life — whether fundamental rights or justice on economic, social, criminal and civil issues. They repeatedly fail when dealing with the powerful, who have escaped the rule of law by colluding together and corrupting the very institutions which would hold them accountable. They have placed undeserving people in positions of responsibility and authority who can be easily swayed. There’s little justice for the weak. They have silently suffered injustices and turned to prayer. But no more it seems.

The events of the last three weeks were unprecedented in Pakistan’s recent political history. Two groups of people marched into the capital to demand justice peacefully but loudly, when the normal routes for redress were denied to them. One of them has been aggrieved by a powerful political party in government, the other by the system itself. Naturally they had been denied justice. How else could they make their case, and to whom?

The groups articulated their case before the people of Pakistan and vowed not to leave unless justice was done. Unfortunately, their pleas fell on deaf ears. Many people are prisoners of their political affiliations and oblivious to the voice of their conscience. These people were shocked at the ‘rude’ manner of speech but unmoved by the horrendous acts of injustice. Pakistanis have learnt to look the other way when they see injustice; some lack compassion, others benefit from the status quo.

Many commentators chose to denounce the cries for justice as ‘undemocratic’. Outside parliament, it is absurdly argued, the people have no right to express their opinion and seek justice.

To divert attention from the issues at hand and acts of injustice against which people had gathered, the debate descended to the level of the choice of location where such demonstrations should be rightly held, if at all. Unrepentant of its earlier brutality, the government used overwhelming force, killing people and seriously injuring scores. The scale and severity of police brutality on our citizens appears unprecedented in our history and for what crime? Its broadcast on television intimidated many who may have dreamt of seeking justice against powerful politicians. It demonstrated the lack of value of citizens’ lives in the minds of the elected government. Yet state institutions which are the custodians of justice kept silent.

Next the debate descended into the darkness that envelops the minds of the powerful and their mouthpieces in strategic places. How many people were there in the demonstrations or dharna? It doesn’t matter. It never dawned on our blind leaders that even if there was one old woman in rags seeking justice against a powerful government, it was a voice powerful enough that could sweep away anyone standing in its way, if justice existed in this sad country.

Debate shifted to parliament. No speech on the central role of justice in a democracy. Members denounced those asking for justice outside parliament to protect democracy and parliament. They rallied together against those who might take away their power. No one was. The only threat to members was from the administration of justice if it ever was meted out in this country. An election audit threatens particular members, not parliament. The dignity of parliament is unquestionable but individual members are responsible for their own dignity.

Are they ready for an audit of the votes they polled, or for examination of their pre-poll affidavits submitted to returning officers which ‘could not be verified’ conveniently due to shortage of time? To be worthy of our parliament, each member must submit to audits on both counts since serious questions have been raised. Their refusal to do so appears an admission of guilt.

Demands for justice remain unheeded. Parliamentarians favour status quo over justice. Pakistan awaits Ibn Khaldun’s powerful and just authority to protect its aggrieved citizens against the brutality of the powerful. The Constitution has clearly assigned institutional responsibilities, but will the persons in those institutions rise above their prejudices and affiliations to fulfil their responsibilities? Time will tell if we are a civilised just society or if a great upheaval forces us to protect the weak, wretched and downtrodden of our society. The choice is ours, may Allah guide us.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1130692/choice-before-us


Democracy matters

By Amber Darr

ANYONE witnessing the events in Islamabad in recent weeks could be excused for believing either that democracy means the rallying together of large crowds and staging extended sit-ins or that by merely sporting an elected parliament a country may consider itself absolved of any further obligations towards building a democracy. Worse still, this person may altogether abandon his efforts to understand what democracy means and declare that Pakistan is neither ready for nor able to handle a democratic system of governance.

It is this perception that is most damaging. It suggests that the person in question — the quintessential Pakistani — if he thinks about democracy at all, views it as an issue belonging to the political arena and not related to the priorities of his existence. The fact, however, is that democracy, or indeed its absence, has a direct and significant impact even on the most private sphere of an individual’s life and it is for this reason alone, that it is important not only to understand it but also to be actively engaged in its continuity.

An aspect of democracy that perhaps most directly impacts individual life is the manner in which it undertakes law reform. Countries adopt laws either by developing them internally or by borrowing them from other, more advanced countries. Developing countries tend to fall into the category of borrowers because they often lag behind in identifying areas that require law reform and lack the capacity to undertake the exercise. Borrowing itself, however, may also take one of several forms: it may either engage the public or keep it relatively in the dark.

It is democracy that makes the difference. A truly democratic country has several mechanisms in place for eliciting public opinion. Prior to polls, candidates garner support by engaging the electorate on issues of importance; once elected, they represent the views of their constituents in parliament. Parl*iament itself, when a proposal for law reform is tabled before it, does not merely rely on the ability of individual members to relay the opinion of the public, but actively solicits it.

Additionally, parliamentarians in a well-functioning democracy know they need the goodwill of their constituents for re-election. This factor helps ensure that the proposed law strikes a balance between governmental policy and the electorate’s needs. The entire exercise creates a win-win situation: the public has a law it understands and has helped formulate, the elected representatives have public support and the government has a greater chance of achieving meaningful enforcement.

However, this ideal is not attainable in a society such as ours that simply slaps a veneer of democracy on a people that otherwise remain entrenched in a culture of feudalism which continues to direct their actions. This stranglehold of feudal attitudes forces even the most democratic seeming institutions to often conduct their affairs in accordance with personal allegiances and to treat the public as fodder for a largely self-serving agenda rather than as the holder of independent opinion and a force unto itself.

It is the absence of feudalism that despite the commonalities that the two countries share, sets India apart from Pakistan. In the 67 years since independence, India has been able to establish, maintain and strengthen its democratic institutions and traditions. Hence, its process of law reform actively engages the public: first as members of indigenous committees that propose the reform, then as members of parliament who review it and finally as stakeholders who provide their input at each stage.

For the greater part of these same 67 years, Pakistan, even when it has sported an elected parliament, has preferred to outsource law reform to multilateral agencies such as the World Bank. These agencies, even though they have engaged Pak*istani experts, have not been able to meaningfully engage a broader section of the public. Perhaps, they had no real choice because years of absolute control of an overarching executive that did not hold itself in any way accountable to the public had in any event muffled public opinion and thereby destroyed any chances of constructive dialogue.

Whatever the reasons, it is the average Pakistani who has been the ultimate loser. Not only does he continue to live under laws he does not subscribe to, he also pays the price when these laws are flouted because they have failed to penetrate the society’s consciousness.

The present political impasse, despite all criticisms directed towards it, has the potential to break this cycle of repression and victimisation. Because by awakening people to their power it may bridge the gap between the form of democracy and its substance which continues to elude us.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1130341/democracy-matters
 
This is also a brilliant article. Have not read anything of this insight in newspaper for a while. But there is only one contradiction here that author argues that
social and political transformation can never be promoted by ‘long marches’ and political theatre including passionate and rehearsed declamations. It means achieving what today may be considered ‘impossible’ by releasing the people’s pent-up moral, social and intellectual energies on an unprecedented scale. It comprises focused and continuous activity, analysis, consultation, discussion, mobilization and organization at every level of society. Only such a participatory process can maximize ownership of political agendas, policies and goals.

What sort and shape of consultation , discussion, mobilization and organisation he means here if not political movements/protests?

And he suggests this solution for true reformation or transformation.

Without massive investments in education, health, socio-economic security and institutional capacity, the conventional checklists of democracy and good governance will never amount to progress towards transformation.

The point is who and how anyone could lead us to that starting point he argues if not protests?

Democracy and transformation

By Ashraf Jehangir Qazi

IT is uncertain whether the wretched show in Islamabad is drawing to a close or entering a new phase. Maybe the floods are a divine warning to our so-called leaders to stop fiddling while Pakistan drowns. There is desperate hope that some good may yet come out of the ridiculous shenanigans of almost a month. But do any of our leaders look as if they will learn anything from this tragicomedy that is pure tragedy for the people? As for the media, it is orgasmic over ‘script writers’, ‘connecting the dots’, ‘Kayani doctrines’, ‘Plans A, B and C’, division of national policymaking between elected civilians and the permanent ‘deep state’, etc.

None of the main cast inside and outside parliament, with honourable exceptions, has emerged with any credit. It is pure fantasy to think this soft state spectacle can translate into movement towards better governance and more inclusive and institutional democracy. The political system is simply proof against any serious commitment to addressing the fundamental needs and entitlements of our people. Not even the indefinite ‘postponement’ of the visit of the president of China, our most important friend and neighbour, can shame the shameless. The attempt to drag his visit into our political wrangling is unforgiveable.

Can the prime minister now take responsibility and rise to the occasion by enabling fresh, free and fair and non-controversial elections under a genuinely independent caretaker government and a credible election commission, even if he is understandably and justifiably convinced that neither law nor established fact compel him to do so? Can this, including essential minimum electoral reform, be done in 90 days? Or will all the change we can look forward to amount to what the French say: plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose (the more things change the more they are the same.) That would be the confirmation of a failing state. Anybody concerned?

Democracy has become a mantra. It generally means the rule of the people. Plato despised it as the rule of the mob that inevitably led to dictatorship and tyranny. The authors of the US constitution were slave-owners and ardent advocates of Enlightenment democracy minus the unenlightened masses. The US has by and large adhered to this rule of the one per cent. Churchill regarded democracy as the worst form of governance except for all the others. Lee Kuan Yew observed democracy was like a Rolls Royce. It is the best car on the road. Buy it if you can afford it. If not, it will be the worst investment you can make. He said for democracy not to be a mockery of itself, the people would first need to have an economic stake in it. Otherwise, they would simply ask for the moon. We have democracy without governance and electricity!

Real change takes time. But what should be possible is to get onto the right path and make progress towards it. This will require scale and quality of effort, the progressive emergence of an appropriate political culture and the development of essential institutions of governance. This will entail a colossal investment in the full range of human resource development. Does our power structure, as reflected in our budget allocations and revenue collection, permit this? Our politically astute ‘leaders’ have other priorities, ranging from nursing their bank accounts to nursing their egos.

A social and political transformation can never be promoted by ‘long marches’ and political theatre including passionate and rehearsed declamations. It means achieving what today may be considered ‘impossible’ by releasing the people’s pent-up moral, social and intellectual energies on an unprecedented scale. It comprises focused and continuous activity, analysis, consultation, discussion, mobilization and organization at every level of society. Only such a participatory process can maximize ownership of political agendas, policies and goals. Does any such vision even occur to our essentially uneducated and uninterested ego-stricken political peacocks?

The greatest barrier to national transformation is said to be the intolerance of religious orthodoxy that permeates our entire society. This is true. But the message of Islam is clearly inclusive, indeed universal, tolerant, mindful of exploitation and oppression, and congenial to rational inquiry. It was centuries after the Prophet (PBUH) when the school of tradition and consensus politically prevailed over the school of informed opinion and reasoned reception. The doors of ijtehad were closed. This was a political development within a religious tradition which provided the basis for orthodoxy for the next 1,000 years.

It enabled the community of believers to survive two calamitous encounters: the destruction wrought by the Mongols and the humiliations inflicted by the West. But it also circumscribed the nature and effectiveness of the responses of Muslim societies to the challenges of modernity and globalisation by inhibiting the internalising of the scientific temper, including the spirit of rational enquiry which had once been the pride of a confident Islamic civilisation.

Many of Islam’s greatest thinkers, including Allama Iqbal, have sought to ‘reopen the doors of ijtehad’ to allow the reception of Islam’s eternal truths in a manner compatible with a successful engagement with contemporary challenges.

However, intellectual, moral and political passivity — in the face of an intolerant, ignorant and violent conservatism that sets a narrow interpretation of divine injunctions against the liberation and welfare of the Muslim masses — has largely frustrated efforts at reforming religious thought. As a result, Muslim societies have generally been denied progress in scientific knowledge, technological development, political freedom and well-being. Our opportunistic leaders are irredeemably irrelevant.

A transition to modernity has to be achieved, or be under way, for concepts such as democracy, the constitution and the rule of law to be effective and meaningful for our people and society. Otherwise, they will tend to reflect, even legitimise, the control of prevailing power structures and practices inimical to social and political progress. Without massive investments in education, health, socio-economic security and institutional capacity, the conventional checklists of democracy and good governance will never amount to progress towards transformation.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1130709/democracy-and-transformation
 
Measuring effects: Sit-ins paralyse Islamabad, slow down progress



The sit-ins, organised by Imran Khan’s PTI and Tahirul Qadri-led PAT, have forced the cancellation of a visit by Sri Lankan president before casting doubt on the planned arrival of the Chinese head of state.

The nature of the Chinese president’s visit is as high-profile as it gets and the slightest of reshuffling in plans would strengthen hands of those international forces that do not want to see close ties between Pakistan and China. Furthermore, Chinese president is set to visit India, which could be interpreted as further isolation for Pakistan.

During the visit, the Chinese head of state was expected to sign several defence and economic pacts.

014.jpg


Pakistan has been negotiating a deal to acquire four submarines besides purchasing two squadrons of JF-17 Thunder multi-role aircraft, which is the joint production of Pakistan and China. Additionally, agreements were expected to be signed for 14 power sector projects that would have the potential to generate 10,400 megawatts of electricity with active Chinese assistance.

At a time of a severe power crisis, the deals are priceless.

“The international image of Pakistan has considerably been shattered,” the federal government responded in the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The fallout has also shattered confidence of investors, it added.

The government has so far estimated overall losses to the economy at Rs547 billion. Out of the total, Rs228 billion have been estimated on account of 4.3% depreciation in the value of Pakistani rupee against the US dollar. Another Rs319 billion was estimated due to decline witnessed in the stock market. However, the Karachi Stock Exchange has now entered the recovery mode on the back of reports suggesting that the contesting parties have agreed to resolve the issue through dialogue.

The government has also claimed that political uncertainty has also adversely affected financial markets and foreign currency reserves have declined to $13.52 billion from the $13.926 billion in the week that ended on August 15.

It comes as no surprise that protesters have rendered the government machinery dysfunctional. The Pak-Secretariat – the seat of civilian bureaucracy – remained almost closed for about two weeks. Important matters remain unattended and barring emergency nature no other files are being entertained.

Since August 16, less than half of the Federal Board of Revenue’s workforce has been able to attend office that is also located at the Constitution Avenue. However, it would not affect revenue collection as the work in field formations is going on smoothly.

The additional cost of security has been estimated at Rs357.6 million. An amount of Rs226.8 million has already been released, while ministry of interior has requested Rs130.6 million additional funds as of August 29.

The damage to public property has been estimated at Rs5 million by the Capital Development Authority. The equipment of state-owned Pakistan Television was also damaged while protestors burnt a police vehicle besides damaging 17 others. So far, 717 persons have been injured including 202 police personnel and three protesters also lost their lives, according to official estimates.

The Trader Association of Islamabad has claimed Rs10 billion losses – a figure that seems highly exaggerated. However, the government machinery has come to a standstill.

Schools have remained shut with children losing valuable learning time. Police forces from Punjab and AJK have been temporarily using the schools’ premises.

The fear is that the government will try to hide behind the political turmoil to hide its inefficiency on the economic front. The government has set ambitious economic targets for the current financial year and many of these cannot be achieved.

However, protestors seem to have given an excuse to the government.


International financial institutions that were somehow ready to deal with the government have, for the time being, taken a back seat and are waiting for a resolution of the dispute.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/759212/sit-ins-paralyse-islamabad-slow-down-progress/

^ Once again, PTI+PAT continues to maintain anti-Pakistan and anti-development of Pakistan.
 
Battered by the monsoon and baked by the sun, many Pakistan Awami Tehreek (PAT) revolutionaries seem to be yearning to return home. Alas, they did not or probably could not read the fine print of the contract they signed with their political party.

According to a BBC Urdu report, there is growing discontentment among a large number of protest participants who are, allegedly, not being allowed to go home. These include participants who were injured in the clashes with the police, and are ostensibly unfit to sit-in any longer.

A young resident from Bahawalpur informed BBC that he’d been promised a sum of Rs6,000 to attend the Inqilab march for three days, but ended up staying for 21 days against his will.

“The party leaders told us they had their people posted on all bus stands and if they saw any of us trying to catch a bus, they would send us to the ‘next world’ and tell our families we were killed by the police,” he said.

He claims that as many as 300 people from Bahawalpur and adjoining areas have been paid to participate in the political event. Women bringing children below the age of 10 to the protest site were reportedly offered even more money.

The BBC report arrives just as we were *this* close to being impressed by the tenacity of Dr Tahirul Qadri’s supporters; by their perseverance and the discipline it requires stay out on the streets this long.

Let’s face it; this has been no mean feat. With the weather threatening to drown them on the weekend and roast them on Monday afternoon, with no available latrines for the most part, amid the risk of new clashes breaking out with the police for which one must be ever-ready for fight or flight; one has likely seen nicer days.

It appears now that they’re not as ‘tenacious’ as they were because they are terrified of what might happen to them if they leave.

PAT deputy secretary of information has, of course, rubbished the allegations; tacitly adding another name to the expanding list of people and organisations purportedly conspiring against the Inqilab march. He claimed that as many as 800 protesters were allowed to go home in time for their school exams.

‘Allowed’, as in we’re meant to take this as an indicator of the party’s generosity? One would expect these free citizens to be able to go home for their exams, or sisters’ weddings or out of plain boredom, without awaiting PAT’s approval of their departure.

It’s cringe-worthy to take advantage of one’s poverty to further a political agenda. It’s downright repulsive to turn what’s probably a well-intentioned rally, into a prison camp.

The accusations made by these petrified demonstrators cannot be ignored, especially when viewed alongside Dr Qadri’s history of controversial speeches. He’s the man who once claimed that his revolution will not spare anyone who doesn’t support it. At one point, he suggested killing those who turn back from their ranks, although he dismissed the comment later as ‘metaphorical’.

How far up the PAT hierarchy the scandal stretches, is still hard to say. If it doesn’t reach the top, the highest echelon must take notice of the fact that adding rented revolutionaries to a political movement merely increases the risk of an implosion.

Of the many points illustrated by BBC’s exposé, one is absolutely essential to bear in mind: Numbers don’t bring revolutions; convictions do.
 
ll.

“The party leaders told us they had their people posted on all bus stands and if they saw any of us trying to catch a bus, they would send us to the ‘next world’ and tell our families we were killed by the police,” he said.

.


Wow, if true
 
Measuring effects: Sit-ins paralyse Islamabad, slow down progress



The sit-ins, organised by Imran Khan’s PTI and Tahirul Qadri-led PAT, have forced the cancellation of a visit by Sri Lankan president before casting doubt on the planned arrival of the Chinese head of state.

The nature of the Chinese president’s visit is as high-profile as it gets and the slightest of reshuffling in plans would strengthen hands of those international forces that do not want to see close ties between Pakistan and China. Furthermore, Chinese president is set to visit India, which could be interpreted as further isolation for Pakistan.

During the visit, the Chinese head of state was expected to sign several defence and economic pacts.

View attachment 48723


Pakistan has been negotiating a deal to acquire four submarines besides purchasing two squadrons of JF-17 Thunder multi-role aircraft, which is the joint production of Pakistan and China. Additionally, agreements were expected to be signed for 14 power sector projects that would have the potential to generate 10,400 megawatts of electricity with active Chinese assistance.

At a time of a severe power crisis, the deals are priceless.


“The international image of Pakistan has considerably been shattered,” the federal government responded in the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The fallout has also shattered confidence of investors, it added.

The government has so far estimated overall losses to the economy at Rs547 billion. Out of the total, Rs228 billion have been estimated on account of 4.3% depreciation in the value of Pakistani rupee against the US dollar. Another Rs319 billion was estimated due to decline witnessed in the stock market. However, the Karachi Stock Exchange has now entered the recovery mode on the back of reports suggesting that the contesting parties have agreed to resolve the issue through dialogue.

The government has also claimed that political uncertainty has also adversely affected financial markets and foreign currency reserves have declined to $13.52 billion from the $13.926 billion in the week that ended on August 15.

It comes as no surprise that protesters have rendered the government machinery dysfunctional. The Pak-Secretariat – the seat of civilian bureaucracy – remained almost closed for about two weeks. Important matters remain unattended and barring emergency nature no other files are being entertained.

Since August 16, less than half of the Federal Board of Revenue’s workforce has been able to attend office that is also located at the Constitution Avenue. However, it would not affect revenue collection as the work in field formations is going on smoothly.

The additional cost of security has been estimated at Rs357.6 million. An amount of Rs226.8 million has already been released, while ministry of interior has requested Rs130.6 million additional funds as of August 29.

The damage to public property has been estimated at Rs5 million by the Capital Development Authority. The equipment of state-owned Pakistan Television was also damaged while protestors burnt a police vehicle besides damaging 17 others. So far, 717 persons have been injured including 202 police personnel and three protesters also lost their lives, according to official estimates.

The Trader Association of Islamabad has claimed Rs10 billion losses – a figure that seems highly exaggerated. However, the government machinery has come to a standstill.

Schools have remained shut with children losing valuable learning time. Police forces from Punjab and AJK have been temporarily using the schools’ premises.

The fear is that the government will try to hide behind the political turmoil to hide its inefficiency on the economic front. The government has set ambitious economic targets for the current financial year and many of these cannot be achieved.

However, protestors seem to have given an excuse to the government.


International financial institutions that were somehow ready to deal with the government have, for the time being, taken a back seat and are waiting for a resolution of the dispute.


http://tribune.com.pk/story/759212/sit-ins-paralyse-islamabad-slow-down-progress/

^ Once again, PTI+PAT continues to maintain anti-Pakistan and anti-development of Pakistan.

Rs 547 billion is the loss estimate by the government. The numbers dont add up if you do the math. What mechanism has been used? Why should I accept a number given by a govt whch has time and again lied to us?
 
MUST WATCH PEOPLE


SO additional ballot papers were printed from Urdu Bazaar AND 4 Ministers were not changed when the interim government in Punjab came in. These Four ministers should have been replaced by interim-Ministers!
 
A couple of things.....

* Sheikh Rasheed is like Pakistan politics´ very own Shane Warne, the retired expert. Both given immense value by the media and it´s always fun listening to them.


* I think the abbreviation of Pakistan´s agency named National Database and Registration Authority is a cute one, NADRA, and especially the pronunciation of it by the politicians and the analysts etc. on the channels just adds to it.

It sounds like a female name. Like, you know, "Aaj Nadra baaji school nahi´n gayi´n."
[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] Isn´t it a nice name, eh?
 
Anyone can clarify what those squares mean?

*conditions apply. By people of Pakistan we mean PTI supporters only

BTW, why would someone think that the Chinese government, who does not care for the opinion of their own people, will care for people's opinion in Pakistan?
 
*conditions apply. By people of Pakistan we mean PTI supporters only

BTW, why would someone think that the Chinese government, who does not care for the opinion of their own people, will care for people's opinion in Pakistan?

It's a protest. Why do people India protest against rape crime when they know their elected Ministers don't see it as an issue?

See that's how silly you sound. And last time we checked PTI supporters are Pakistanis
 
BTW, why would someone think that the Chinese government, who does not care for the opinion of their own people, will care for people's opinion in Pakistan?

Because chinese government is supposedly dealing with a democratic country. So when you deal with a democratic country, you have to care for the people you're dealing with.
 
A couple of things.....

* Sheikh Rasheed is like Pakistan politics´ very own Shane Warne, the retired expert. Both given immense value by the media and it´s always fun listening to them.


* I think the abbreviation of Pakistan´s agency named National Database and Registration Authority is a cute one, NADRA, and especially the pronunciation of it by the politicians and the analysts etc. on the channels just adds to it.

It sounds like a female name. Like, you know, "Aaj Nadra baaji school nahi´n gayi´n."

[MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] Isn´t it a nice name, eh?

Lol Nadra baji :)))
 
Azadi !! Inquilaab !! Bijli Chori !!

View attachment 48735

So what? Raiwind mein tu bijli hi nahi jaati!

If Jaati Umra can have 24/7 electricity then what moral authority does the government has to ask people not to steal electricity and pay bills for something that they don't even get!

The politicians have made it clear through their actions that if you are powerful then you can do whatever you want and not have to worry about consequences!
 
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for those that demanding pm to resign just becoz the fear is he can influence the rigging investigation is unreasonable. they need to think about the caretaker set up govt system in pakistan which pretty much relates to influencing the election results in general. yet IK had come down to stage of only asking him to step aside till rigging investigation take place

the caretaker system i´ve been told isnt found in many other countries like ind. [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION] is it there in india too or not ? if not then whole issue itself works uniquely in pakistan.
 
for those that demanding pm to resign just becoz the fear is he can influence the rigging investigation is unreasonable. they need to think about the caretaker set up govt system in pakistan which pretty much relates to influencing the election results in general. yet IK had come down to stage of only asking him to step aside till rigging investigation take place

the caretaker system i´ve been told isnt found in many other countries like ind. [MENTION=3327]Indiafan[/MENTION] is it there in india too or not ? if not then whole issue itself works uniquely in pakistan.

But what Imran is saying is illogical. It is no more about investigation into rigging. It is about gaining political mileage.

1. He wants Nawaz to resign but govt to continue. Yes. How will this help impartiality of investigations.

2. If a Sharif could rig the elections when he was out if power, a cover up here won't be too much.

3. Under what jurisdiction is govt supposed to do investigation. Only election commission and courts can direct it which is not under purview of govt.

Just theatre in my book.
 
Azadi !! Inquilaab !! Bijli Chori !!

View attachment 48735

Its called civil nafarmani.

Using electricity and refusing to pay is even worse. Ek to chori phir uper se sinajori.

When you are not going to pay for the electricity anyways then what does it matter if it comes to your home directly or you take it from elsewhere.
 
Interesting fact all PTI leaders specially SMQ are looking tired after 28 days but IK still looking fit and fresh...

Here is the reason why he is still fit at the age of 62!


BxKmmArCAAA_JGI.jpg:large


BxKmm3JCQAAjwhQ.jpg:large


BxKmk7mCAAA0p1O.jpg:large

 
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Its called civil nafarmani.

Using electricity and refusing to pay is even worse. Ek to chori phir uper se sinajori.

When you are not going to pay for the electricity anyways then what does it matter if it comes to your home directly or you take it from elsewhere.

To add to this whole "civil nafarmaani" - PTI's BFF and Chief Adviser, Sheikh Rasheed too is participating actively in this movement.

By paying his electricity bills.

Ba-dum-tsss.
 
So what? Raiwind mein tu bijli hi nahi jaati!

If Jaati Umra can have 24/7 electricity then what moral authority does the government has to ask people not to steal electricity and pay bills for something that they don't even get!

The politicians have made it clear through their actions that if you are powerful then you can do whatever you want and not have to worry about consequences!

Nice logic. Very nice.

If top leadership is corrupt, then we should all become corrupt in the name of change.

If they can steal, so can we. To hell with law and order. Let's all steal bijli and then claim "this govt is lying to us by saying there are heavy losses incurred i mean, who cares about govt right - we dont know how they calculate these stuff, they are all bijli chors so let us bring inquilaab and ask Maulana Qadri to up our participatory wages while we're at it."

And tbh, I remember talks of electricity being suspended to raiwind for non-payment. Don't know what came of it. But yeah. Moral authority.
 
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*conditions apply. By people of Pakistan we mean PTI supporters only

BTW, why would someone think that the Chinese government, who does not care for the opinion of their own people, will care for people's opinion in Pakistan?

Nice logic. Very nice.

If top leadership is corrupt, then we should all become corrupt in the name of change.

If they can steal, so can we. To hell with law and order. Let's all steal bijli and then claim "this govt is lying to us by saying there are heavy losses incurred i mean, who cares about govt right - we dont know how they calculate these stuff, they are all bijli chors so let us bring inquilaab and ask Maulana Qadri to up our participatory wages while we're at it."

And tbh, I remember talks of electricity being suspended to raiwind for non-payment. Don't know what came of it. But yeah. Moral authority.

Why should I pay Tax, bills and not take bribes when our Representatives have made it clear that this is the easiest way to the top?

It is easier to commit a crime and defend yourself than it is to be a victim and seek justice through courts.
 

In no way, I mean to offend or disrespect anyone here.


Its seems a bit shameful and seems like begging. No matter how bad your internal politics, you should not demean your institutions in front of Foreign leaders like this.
It shames only your own country.
 
I wonder what an average Patwari thinks when he sees everyone in his vicinity, general public and even the TV/Film stars supporting PTI/Imran Khan.

:)))

:baelish

The country is changing, mashAllah. Nation is waking up.
 
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