Question for non-believers - Would you ever convert for a partner?

[shaykh]

A question based on two conversations I once had...

A friend of mine is a staunch atheist but his girlfriend at the time was a nominal Muslim ...as in she was aware of his beliefs ...but for familial reasons if they were to ever get married she would have needed him to do a kinda fake conversion ...

Eg do a nikkah, celebrate Eid ...things like that ...he expressed limitations on the extent to which he would convert in action ...eg their children wouldn't be brought up Muslim ...he wouldn't pray or anything like that ...

Another was a student in Spain who was an atheist who simply said it was easier being Catholic for his family and his kids ...even though Spain is secular the culture is Stoll Catholic ...festivals and activities have a religious basis ...his idea was though that he would just ensure his children are secular ...

I imagine doing the fake conversion thing is easier depending on what religion you are ...as a non believer myself I have often asked myself what I would do when time came to settle down ...what if the girls family are religious etc ...

The question btw isn't about insincerity ...your partner is well aware of your views on things ...but would anyone here say be a nominal adherent to the faith of their partner...and if so to what extent?

 

[LordJames]

I am involved in an advisory capacity in many of these cases. The path of converts to Islam is unique (to them)

Many convert (or Revert) with great zeal and then fizzle out.
Many convert for less then exemplary reasons and get stronger and grounded with time.

Conversion is an individual choice and best left to individuals.

 

[shaz619]

A question based on two conversations I once had...

A friend of mine is a staunch atheist but his girlfriend at the time was a nominal Muslim ...as in she was aware of his beliefs ...but for familial reasons if they were to ever get married she would have needed him to do a kinda fake conversion ...

Eg do a nikkah, celebrate Eid ...things like that ...he expressed limitations on the extent to which he would convert in action ...eg their children wouldn't be brought up Muslim ...he wouldn't pray or anything like that ...

Another was a student in Spain who was an atheist who simply said it was easier being Catholic for his family and his kids ...even though Spain is secular the culture is Stoll Catholic ...festivals and activities have a religious basis ...his idea was though that he would just ensure his children are secular ...

I imagine doing the fake conversion thing is easier depending on what religion you are ...as a non believer myself I have often asked myself what I would do when time came to settle down ...what if the girls family are religious etc ...

The question btw isn't about insincerity ...your partner is well aware of your views on things ...but would anyone here say be a nominal adherent to the faith of their partner...and if so to what extent?

I have a relative who married a guy who wasn't a muslim but another religion which wasn't Judaism or Christianity, her parents were against getting married to him but he was a really good guy; in the end they allowed it as they had no choice and he went through the Islamic procedure for marriage and converted to. He done so because he loved her but doesn't follow Islam. But I've visited them both a few times and they are happily married and the guy is really good so what more do you want?

My girlfriend is an atheist we're pretty close but when she brings up this topic indirectly here and there I avoid discussing it , to be honest I wouldn't put anyone in a position where they have to put their beliefs aside and I wouldn't be compatible doing the same.

 

[Thivagar]

Never would want to be with a girl that is part of the family that forces you to convert.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I have a relative who married a guy who wasn't a muslim but another religion which wasn't Judaism or Christianity, her parents were against getting married to him but he was a really good guy; in the end they allowed it as they had no choice and he went through the Islamic procedure for marriage and converted to. He done so because he loved her but doesn't follow Islam. But I've visited them both a few times and they are happily married and the guy is really good so what more do you want?

My girlfriend is an atheist we're pretty close but when she brings up this topic indirectly here and there I avoid discussing it , to be honest I wouldn't put anyone in a position where they have to put their beliefs aside and I wouldn't be compatible doing the same.

A Pakistani girl I grew up with married an English guy, but he did the obligatory conversion although he's never struck me as religious. Whether he was an atheist or not I have no idea, my idea is that he probably didn't care much one way or the other. They are both decent people though and bringing their daughter up with the Pakistani grandparents involved a lot so it seems that there hasn't been much conflict. But then the girl's parents were well educated and everyone seems pretty happy with the way things have worked out.

I would compare it to the Iman/Bowie partnership which probably brought something beneficial to both parties.

 

[troodon]

If someone wants you to convert for the sake of love, then it was never true love.

 

[Black Zero]

I would fake it.
Cause everyone knows in such marriages, conversions are mostly fake.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If someone wants you to convert for the sake of love, then it was never true love.

Not necessarily true bro.

People may want you to convert due to compulsions and stuff.

Life ain't clear cut always.

 

[shaz619]

A Pakistani girl I grew up with married an English guy, but he did the obligatory conversion although he's never struck me as religious. Whether he was an atheist or not I have no idea, my idea is that he probably didn't care much one way or the other. They are both decent people though and bringing their daughter up with the Pakistani grandparents involved a lot so it seems that there hasn't been much conflict. But then the girl's parents were well educated and everyone seems pretty happy with the way things have worked out.

I would compare it to the Iman/Bowie partnership which probably brought something beneficial to both parties.

Yeah I think in my case the guy probably had the same mindset and wasn't too bothered about going through with it. Many people won't believe this but the area my relative was from is a predominately British Pakistani region, the guy whom she married wasn't Pakistani or Muslim and her 2nd generation immigrant parents who didn't spend any time in British Schools (I think the mother may have for a year or two) anyhow the father runs a business and the mother is a housewife, they weren't happy at first with her choice but everyone gets along just fine and there is no friction between the daughter and her parents, they've not disowned her or anything like that. What a shocker?!

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

If I am in Aethiest or an Agnostic than I shall prefer to find a girl who is an Aethiest or an Agnostic.


I won't want my children to have identity crisis. Because say from the age of 3 to 15 you have to bring up your children in a certain way. After that age usually they will experience presence or absense of God. But why should I keep them in identity crisis and confused from the age of 3 to 15 ? It will affect their relationship with me or their mother plus it will affect their worldly life (academics) aswell.

There is no legal settlement between the husband and wife as to how they will bring up their children. And nobody is that much disciplined to follow word by word agreement pre marriage afterwards.


If you as an Aethiest or Agnostic live abroad than certainly your life is safe. So than why hide it from others ? Won't it be cheating on part of you if you pretend to be say a Muslim or a Christian which you are not.


If the girl knows it prehand and she has no issues than go ahead. But as a Non believer why would you want to marry like a Muslim or a Christian when you are not a Muslim or a Christian ? Why pretend ?


If still you go ahead than why would you pretend to celebrate Eid's etc and pray infront of relatives etc ? Why ?
If your life is not in threat than honestly say I don't feel the need to pray or celebrate Eid. It's your life not anybody's else life. A good muslim or christian relative won't make a issue out of it and will still remain nice with you.


In Islam the marriage is between two families. While if you are an Athiest or Agnostic than you are not compelled or have no obligation to meet your relatives etc. Than the marriage is just between you and your wife and let people say or think whatever about you, it should not matter you. If your wife is ok with you it's fine.


And what's wrong in saying Eid Mubarik to Muslims or wearing new clothes or having a lunch or dinner. It doesn't make you muslim. So this should not be an issue.


If I am in your shoes I would want the girl and her family to know in advance what my religious orientation is.

 

[troodon]

Not necessarily true bro.

People may want you to convert due to compulsions and stuff.

Life ain't clear cut always.

If compulsions are greater than love for a person, then better not love and marry someone who satisfies all the compulsions.

Converting for the sake of love can be a slippery slope. Especially if one of the partner comes from a ultra conservative family.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If compulsions are greater than love for a person, then better not love and marry someone who satisfies all the compulsions.

Converting for the sake of love can be a slippery slope. Especially if one of the partner comes from a ultra conservative family.

I completely agree with you but talking about the trueness of love.

You can love someone truly and ask them to convert if you feel that's the only way you two can be together.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I would fake it.
Cause everyone knows in such marriages, conversions are mostly fake.

There is a rich debate worldwide on the subject of Morals. The debate is whether a non believer can be someone with good morals or not ? Can He She be a good person without faith ?


So where do the Morals go now ? Faking you are a believer is ethical ?

 

[James]

Yes.

 

[shaykh]

I have a relative who married a guy who wasn't a muslim but another religion which wasn't Judaism or Christianity, her parents were against getting married to him but he was a really good guy; in the end they allowed it as they had no choice and he went through the Islamic procedure for marriage and converted to. He done so because he loved her but doesn't follow Islam. But I've visited them both a few times and they are happily married and the guy is really good so what more do you want?

My girlfriend is an atheist we're pretty close but when she brings up this topic indirectly here and there I avoid discussing it , to be honest I wouldn't put anyone in a position where they have to put their beliefs aside and I wouldn't be compatible doing the same.

They had kids?...and if so how do they identify?...

This stuff generally seems easier with Christians cos more often than not they are nominal anyway and religion has little impact on their lives beyond celebrations...that's what I found in Spain...marrying a Christian wouldn't impose on your belief systems too much...

One can argue too that its a bit like that for Jews too...if one married a Jews its just easier to become Jewish because while say the likes of people from Tel-Aviv are secular almost to the point of being atheist being Jewish means one partakes in festivals like Hanukkah and Purim etc...that stuff certainly wouldn't fly if you married into an Orthodox family lol...

In terms of your own situation...if it did become serious...then what's your end game?...she needs to at least be a person of the book for a potential marriage to be valid...

 

[shaykh]

There is a rich debate worldwide on the subject of Morals. The debate is whether a non believer can be someone with good morals or not ? Can He She be a good person without faith ?


So where do the Morals go now ? Faking you are a believer is ethical ?

One can be moral without being religious...

As for faking a belief...it's only unethical if you are deceiving your partner...if one converts just to make life easier for their partner then that's perfectly ethical imo...

 

[troodon]

I completely agree with you but talking about the trueness of love.

You can love someone truly and ask them to convert if you feel that's the only way you two can be together.

I am okay of they follow both religions though. But are the families big hearted enough to allow that?

I know a South Girl married to a Sikh guy. They follow both religions. So far they are okay. But if they have to follow only one religion, I am against it. Why should only one person sacrifice his/her faith for the other one. I sense ulterior motives.

 

[Robert]

I'm atheist (sort of) and married a Christian.

 

[Yossarian]

A question based on two conversations I once had...

A friend of mine is a staunch atheist but his girlfriend at the time was a nominal Muslim ...as in she was aware of his beliefs ...but for familial reasons if they were to ever get married she would have needed him to do a kinda fake conversion ...

Eg do a nikkah, celebrate Eid ...things like that ...he expressed limitations on the extent to which he would convert in action ...eg their children wouldn't be brought up Muslim ...he wouldn't pray or anything like that ...

Another was a student in Spain who was an atheist who simply said it was easier being Catholic for his family and his kids ...even though Spain is secular the culture is Stoll Catholic ...festivals and activities have a religious basis ...his idea was though that he would just ensure his children are secular ...

I imagine doing the fake conversion thing is easier depending on what religion you are ...as a non believer myself I have often asked myself what I would do when time came to settle down ...what if the girls family are religious etc ...

The question btw isn't about insincerity ...your partner is well aware of your views on things ...but would anyone here say be a nominal adherent to the faith of their partner...and if so to what extent?

If he's converting purely for show so as to get married, then he's not converting, he's putting on an act.

Religion is a belief. Converting to that religion (any religion) means that you believe in it. Otherwise you're not converting.

And if his girlfriend is aware of that but still insists upon him going ahead, then who is she fooling? Herself? Her parents? Is that the basis for a marriage? Best not to convert at all - at least he'll be honest to himself and to those whom he's intending to call as his future relatives via marriage.

Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup.

 

[Yossarian]

^^ just add. From an Islamic point of view, the marriage is null and void - because he has not 'converted' - he was simply acting.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

One can be moral without being religious...

As for faking a belief...it's only unethical if you are deceiving your partner...if one converts just to make life easier for their partner then that's perfectly ethical imo...

This is why it is said that ethical and moral codes are very relative. Indeed it is TRUE


Now faking a belief is also termed and justified as logical and ethical.

One can understand that if ABC stands up and says person X is Apostate I will rip apart his head. Than a person faking belief is fine because he has to save his breaths (life). Though there is no worldly punishment for apostasy & blasphemy in Islam.


If you find it ethical and moral it's your belief/understanding I have no issues.

 

[Itachi]

I am atheist. My gf is a very religious Christian.

I never forced her to take my principles neither she does.

We both respect each other's views regarding this just that we don't agree to each other.

Haven't created an issue as of now in almost 6 years.

 

[shaykh]

If he's converting purely for show so as to get married, then he's not converting, he's putting on an act.

Religion is a belief. Converting to that religion (any religion) means that you believe in it. Otherwise you're not converting.

And if his girlfriend is aware of that but still insists upon him going ahead, then who is she fooling? Herself? Her parents? Is that the basis for a marriage? Best not to convert at all - at least he'll be honest to himself and to those whom he's intending to call as his future relatives via marriage.

Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup.

More the community i guess and sort of the family...in terms of the family they don't particularly practice either...and they knew him...but still the idea of a non-Muslim boy marrying their daughter isn't a good look...i dont think they would have been naive enough to believe his conversion to be genuine either...but its just easier for the girl and her family as a whole...

I agree with you on what a conversion in theory should be...hence i'm suggesting instances like this are fake ones...'official' ones as opposed to anything remotely genuine...

 

[shaykh]

^^ just add. From an Islamic point of view, the marriage is null and void - because he has not 'converted' - he was simply acting.

But who will know?...God?...it doesn't really bother the girl nor the boy in question...the idea is an official stamp of approval...not whether God approves of their union...the girl herself is more or less a nominal Muslim...celebrates Eid and doesn't eat pork ...

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

If he's converting purely for show so as to get married, then he's not converting, he's putting on an act.

Religion is a belief. Converting to that religion (any religion) means that you believe in it. Otherwise you're not converting.

And if his girlfriend is aware of that but still insists upon him going ahead, then who is she fooling? Herself? Her parents? Is that the basis for a marriage? Best not to convert at all - at least he'll be honest to himself and to those whom he's intending to call as his future relatives via marriage.

Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup.

^^ just add. From an Islamic point of view, the marriage is null and void - because he has not 'converted' - he was simply acting.

My comment to both posts is " EXACTLY " except this :

" Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup. "


When she has no issues in first place than it means religion does not matter her that's why she has no issues. So a non religious lady & an Aethiest/Agnostic should work. Atleast they won't be having any issues due to religion as both don't care about religion.

 

[shaykh]

I'm atheist (sort of) and married a Christian.

How Christian is your wife if you don't mind me asking?...and do you have different ideas on your children if you have any?...

 

[Yossarian]

One can be moral without being religious...

As for faking a belief...it's only unethical if you are deceiving your partner...if one converts just to make life easier for their partner then that's perfectly ethical imo...

So if not to deceive your partner, who may in fact be complicit in the deception, then who are you, and your partner, deceiving? Your partners parents and relatives?

So either you're lying to your partners, or both of you are lying to your partners parents and loved ones. Where's your and your partners morals and ethics then if they deceive and lie to their own parents and loved ones?

 

[Justcrazy]

^^ just add. From an Islamic point of view, the marriage is null and void - because he has not 'converted' - he was simply acting.

That girl would be living in adultery for rest of her life.

 

[Justcrazy]

But who will know?...God?...it doesn't really bother the girl nor the boy in question...the idea is an official stamp of approval...not whether God approves of their union...the girl herself is more or less a nominal Muslim...celebrates Eid and doesn't eat pork ...

Pork is not the most important thing in Islam.

 

[Yossarian]

My comment to both posts is " EXACTLY " except this :

" Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup. "


When she has no issues in first place than it means religion does not matter her that's why she has no issues. So a non religious lady & an Aethiest/Agnostic should work. Atleast they won't be having any issues due to religion as both don't care about religion.

They won't have any issues - yet.

However, there was a reason why the both of them felt the need to have a fake conversion in the first place. Perhaps to put up a (false) front to her parents? So what happens when children come along, and the new grandparents wish to see religious rituals carried out that also affects the children? (eg Baptism if Christian, Azaan if Muslim, boys circumcision (if Muslim or Jewish) ,,etc).

Carry out those rituals? Or tell the grandparents at that stage that they were lied to regarding the conversion/marriage?

These are the fault lines which build up over time and eventually cause ramifications later. Better to be honest from the start. Even if it means telling the parents 'take it or leave it - but no (fake) conversion will take place'.

 

[shaykh]

Pork is not the most important thing in Islam.

Of course it's not...but you do know a guy or girl is really gone religion wise when they eat pork...it's kinda like the last straw...you can fornicate, drink etc...but when you eat pork then you really get judged...

 

[shaykh]

So if not to deceive your partner, who may in fact be complicit in the deception, then who are you, and your partner, deceiving? Your partners parents and relatives?

So either you're lying to your partners, or both of you are lying to your partners parents and loved ones. Where's your and your partners morals and ethics then if they deceive and lie to their own parents and loved ones?

Fair comment...

 

[Yossarian]

That girl would be living in adultery for rest of her life.

From a religious point of view - correct. So there was no point in him putting on an act and faking a conversion.

 

[shaykh]

From a religious point of view - correct. So there was no point in him putting on an act and faking a conversion.

What I would say on this point is again the girl in question is nominal in her belief...so the idea that she would be living in adultery and would be angering Allah isn't really a concern of hers...after all shes happy dating an atheist and after her relationship with my friend she went on to meet another non-Muslim anyway...

Her family are liberal enough to let her date a non-Muslim...just not liberal enough to let her marry one...and that for me suggests that their concerns are more reputation based than anything else...it's not as I mentioned in my previous post that they are devoted Muslims...kinda like your Jumma, Eid guys...who call their children Muslim yet brought her up secular and have no problems with her dating non-Muslims...

The conversion in this case would have been an 'official' stamp...and i'd hazard a guess that a lot of conversions that come out of relationships especially when the adherent is female are like this...

 

[shaz619]

They had kids?...and if so how do they identify?...

This stuff generally seems easier with Christians cos more often than not they are nominal anyway and religion has little impact on their lives beyond celebrations...that's what I found in Spain...marrying a Christian wouldn't impose on your belief systems too much...

One can argue too that its a bit like that for Jews too...if one married a Jews its just easier to become Jewish because while say the likes of people from Tel-Aviv are secular almost to the point of being atheist being Jewish means one partakes in festivals like Hanukkah and Purim etc...that stuff certainly wouldn't fly if you married into an Orthodox family lol...

In terms of your own situation...if it did become serious...then what's your end game?...she needs to at least be a person of the book for a potential marriage to be valid...

Yeah a baby of 9 months It's a good question though and am curious about it to. I agree with that, in the UK they only go to church when they marry and when they die lol

My plan is to recreate the ending of dilwaleh dilhuniyah lejaygeh:

Yeah that's true, I've not thought about it much to be honest. Maybe it won't get to that stage due to the barriers, I wouldn't make her do a fake conversion either it's not right and like one of the posters has mentioned the kids would have an identity crisis. It's a shame really because I really like this woman but on the other hand I could forget about whether it is deemed valid or not, go through with it and bring up the kids amidst all the confusion as well; but on a personal level my faith in God wouldn't change and I'd still try to pray Jumma every friday like I do now basically obviously the negative is that I'd have to burn in hell for an x amount of years before I can enter heaven or maybe I wont that's not up to me

 

[Justcrazy]

Of course it's not...but you do know a guy or girl is really gone religion wise when they eat pork...it's kinda like the last straw...you can fornicate, drink etc...but when you eat pork then you really get judged...

I did not mean that.

I meant that all those are major sins , those do not put you outside Islam . If the Girl does not have believe in Allah swt , and is merely pretending , she is not a Muslim at all. Its hypocrisy.

 

[Justcrazy]

From a religious point of view - correct. So there was no point in him putting on an act and faking a conversion.

Maybe because she feels guilty to say the truth.

 

[Justcrazy]

What I would say on this point is again the girl in question is nominal in her belief...so the idea that she would be living in adultery and would be angering Allah isn't really a concern of hers...after all shes happy dating an atheist and after her relationship with my friend she went on to meet another non-Muslim anyway...

Her family are liberal enough to let her date a non-Muslim...just not liberal enough to let her marry one...and that for me suggests that their concerns are more reputation based than anything else...it's not as I mentioned in my previous post that they are devoted Muslims...kinda like your Jumma, Eid guys...who call their children Muslim yet brought her up secular and have no problems with her dating non-Muslims...

The conversion in this case would have been an 'official' stamp...and i'd hazard a guess that a lot of conversions that come out of relationships especially when the adherent is female are like this...

Maybe her family does not know that.

It is also a possibility that her family does not approve of that , but cannot do anything.

 

[Yossarian]

What I would say on this point is again the girl in question is nominal in her belief...so the idea that she would be living in adultery and would be angering Allah isn't really a concern of hers...after all shes happy dating an atheist and after her relationship with my friend she went on to meet another non-Muslim anyway...

Her family are liberal enough to let her date a non-Muslim...just not liberal enough to let her marry one...and that for me suggests that their concerns are more reputation based than anything else...it's not as I mentioned in my previous post that they are devoted Muslims...kinda like your Jumma, Eid guys...who call their children Muslim yet brought her up secular and have no problems with her dating non-Muslims...

The conversion in this case would have been an 'official' stamp...and i'd hazard a guess that a lot of conversions that come out of relationships especially when the adherent is female are like this...

I disagree. If none of it mattered, they wouldn't be making such an effort in going through with such a charade. Hence it matters enough.

And if it matters now, it will matter even more if/when children come along and start growing up.
E.g. Are they going to give them muslim names? Are they going to perform the various religious rituals that come along and that affect the children? Such as azaan in the newborn baby's ear, shaving the newborn baby's head/hair, circumcision (boys), grandparents taking the children for Eid prayers etc.?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

They won't have any issues - yet.

However, there was a reason why the both of them felt the need to have a fake conversion in the first place. Perhaps to put up a (false) front to her parents? So what happens when children come along, and the new grandparents wish to see religious rituals carried out that also affects the children? (eg Baptism if Christian, Azaan if Muslim, boys circumcision (if Muslim or Jewish) ,,etc).

Carry out those rituals? Or tell the grandparents at that stage that they were lied to regarding the conversion/marriage?

These are the fault lines which build up over time and eventually cause ramifications later. Better to be honest from the start. Even if it means telling the parents 'take it or leave it - but no (fake) conversion will take place'.

Well they will fake again(compromise) or tell them the truth than.


Yes. It's better to be honest upfront.

 

[shaykh]

Maybe her family does not know that.

It is also a possibility that her family does not approve of that , but cannot do anything.

Her family did know my friend...and they knew he was dating her too...it wasn't an issue...

You might be correct about it being reluctant acceptance...the main point though is the limit would be marriage...

As for the point of her not being a Muslim at all...theres probably truth in that...which is why I don't feel the idea of a fake conversion would have been remotely concerning for her...after all it's for show...it's not a roundabout way to bring her boyfriend to belief...therefore the discussion about sins becomes immaterial because the 'adherent' in question doesn't actually care...

Yossarian mentions some valid points about down the line...part of my discussion with my friend for instance were whether he would be happy letting his kid get circumcised...this stuff bothered him...

From a personal standpoint it wouldn't bother me too much...as someone who has dated girls who subscribe to religion the issue is determining their level of religiousity...to give an example of when I lived in Spain...Catholicism essentially meant a belief in God and engaging in festivals and celebrations...but children were brought up quite secular...I can see where my atheist student even felt no problem marrying a Catholic and bringing up his children as nominal Catholics...because beyond label and traditions his wife wasn't particularly religious...

As someone agnostic i'd say it's even easier because one is less dogmatic...

 

[Yossarian]

Well they will fake again(compromise) or tell them the truth than.


Yes. It's better to be honest upfront.

The truth always remains consistent. Lies need more lies to cover/hide the flaws and inconsistencies arising from the previous lies, which in turn creates more flaws and inconsistencies ........ until eventually the whole house comes crumbling down and all the lies get exposed.

Which is far far worse than telling an uncomfortable truth right at the outset.

 

[shaykh]

I disagree. If none of it mattered, they wouldn't be making such an effort in going through with such a charade. Hence it matters enough.

And if it matters now, it will matter even more if/when children come along and start growing up.
E.g. Are they going to give them muslim names? Are they going to perform the various religious rituals that come along and that affect the children? Such as azaan in the newborn baby's ear, shaving the newborn baby's head/hair, circumcision (boys), grandparents taking the children for Eid prayers etc.?

Valid questions...and again it depends in the level of religiousity of one side and how opposed to religion the other side is...the part on Eid prayers and circumcision is where my friend would have drawn the line...

I haven't quite worked out what I would do...I may disagree with religious scriptures but I actually quite like the traditions of some...the rituals...can't say I would have an issue with most of what you have written above...after all it is ritual which doesn't have to impact my child's belief...in the countries I have been in I have taken part in traditions and things of which I have no knowledge nor an attachment to...

I think a balance can be struck...one example I can think of is an atheist Jewish friend who loves things like Purim, does all the family things like Hanukkah and Pesach...sees them more for their bonding significance rather than actual religious significance...sort of like the atheist student of mine who has no issue with his son being brought up a Catholic because he ensures it's nominal...

It can be difficult but I also believe it can be workable too...

 

[Black Zero]

People can also become religious or leave religion after the marriage.
There are no guarantee anymore in this information age. In open societies, where you can not censor the information, its hard to keep masses misinformed for long.

 

[Yossarian]

Valid questions...and again it depends in the level of religiousity of one side and how opposed to religion the other side is...the part on Eid prayers and circumcision is where my friend would have drawn the line...

I haven't quite worked out what I would do...I may disagree with religious scriptures but I actually quite like the traditions of some...the rituals...can't say I would have an issue with most of what you have written above...after all it is ritual which doesn't have to impact my child's belief...in the countries I have been in I have taken part in traditions and things of which I have no knowledge nor an attachment to...

I think a balance can be struck...one example I can think of is an atheist Jewish friend who loves things like Purim, does all the family things like Hanukkah and Pesach...sees them more for their bonding significance rather than actual religious significance...sort of like the atheist student of mine who has no issue with his son being brought up a Catholic because he ensures it's nominal...

It can be difficult but I also believe it can be workable too...

Lets put aside for one moment the fact it's concerning religion.

Lets take an example of a marriage between two people from opposite ends of the social hierarchy.

Now whilst the couple may be madly in love, once the marriage has taken place each partner may feel a slight amount of discomfort when visiting/attending the other partners family/ friends / social functions, because they may feel 'out of place', because they may being to feel like all eyes are on them, that they were a curiosity.

Imagine the partner from the working class background attending a formal occasion like attending a 'high society' wedding from the upper class partners side of the family. And feeling that his/her accent, the social talk, which fork/spoon to use when, ..etc was all being observed with curiosity by prying eyes.

It may not amount to much, but it may make that partner reluctant to attend such functions in the future - to the chagrin of the other partner who doesn't understand why.

And similar issues when the roles are reversed, and the 'upper class' partner attends the 'working class' partners family functions and feels out of place.

It may not seem much, but over time it can start creating tensions "Why don't you want us to visit my parents ...or attend that coming-of-age social event ...?"

Now using similar logic, lets pick up again where its not social background but religious background.

If it was important enough to put up a charade for the religious conversion/wedding, then those reasons haven't gone away just because the wedding has taken place.

The 'convert' will feel all the eyes are on them if/when they attend family functions involving friends who were the reasons why the conversion charade was acted in the first place.

The rest is as per above.

Better to be up front at the outset rather than carry out a religious conversion charade, and then try to keep it up as time goes on.

 

[Justcrazy]

Her family did know my friend...and they knew he was dating her too...it wasn't an issue...

You might be correct about it being reluctant acceptance...the main point though is the limit would be marriage...

As for the point of her not being a Muslim at all...theres probably truth in that...which is why I don't feel the idea of a fake conversion would have been remotely concerning for her...after all it's for show...it's not a roundabout way to bring her boyfriend to belief...therefore the discussion about sins becomes immaterial because the 'adherent' in question doesn't actually care...

Yossarian mentions some valid points about down the line...part of my discussion with my friend for instance were whether he would be happy letting his kid get circumcised...this stuff bothered him...

From a personal standpoint it wouldn't bother me too much...as someone who has dated girls who subscribe to religion the issue is determining their level of religiousity...to give an example of when I lived in Spain...Catholicism essentially meant a belief in God and engaging in festivals and celebrations...but children were brought up quite secular...I can see where my atheist student even felt no problem marrying a Catholic and bringing up his children as nominal Catholics...because beyond label and traditions his wife wasn't particularly religious...

As someone agnostic i'd say it's even easier because one is less dogmatic...

If she does not believe in God , then why fake it up. Its not going to benefit her in any way.

 

[MABA]

I am not a religious person so I would not convert to anything, nor would I ask anyone to convert. At the same time I don't think I would allow my spouse to instil her religion on any children we might have. Selfish I know but I can't risk them believing in some crazy stuff

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

shykh bhaee you are a very very Caring person.


Atleast I have figured out how much you care about your friend and his life.


MashaAllah


[MENTION=29064]shaz[/MENTION]619 atleast 619 bear should have felt the same ages ago (hours ago)

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If he's converting purely for show so as to get married, then he's not converting, he's putting on an act.

Religion is a belief. Converting to that religion (any religion) means that you believe in it. Otherwise you're not converting.

And if his girlfriend is aware of that but still insists upon him going ahead, then who is she fooling? Herself? Her parents? Is that the basis for a marriage? Best not to convert at all - at least he'll be honest to himself and to those whom he's intending to call as his future relatives via marriage.

Else he'll be sowing the seeds for an almost guaranteed future marital breakup.

That's an interesting viewpoint, but the marriage I mentioned earlier is still going strong. I have also mentioned previously two of my friends married Hindu girls and they have both had kids and also seem to be very happy, although they did have issues with the parents initially which I think have been smoothed over to some extent from both boy and girl's side.

I don't socialise with any of these much these days as they have moved away for career purposes, so it might well be that there are issues which I'm not seeing. My impression is that all the conversions were done more for love than religious conviction and they are living relatively successful and decent family lives which has probably helped smooth things over with the families of the converted.

 

[street cricketer]

Sure why not if the girl looks like Alexandra Daddario

It's not like I'm going to suddenly become religious if I convert to some other religion.

 

[PakLFC]

No, never! I have to be true to myself and what I believe. Either we accept each other for what we are or we don't do so at all.

 

[shaykh]

Lets put aside for one moment the fact it's concerning religion.

Lets take an example of a marriage between two people from opposite ends of the social hierarchy.

Now whilst the couple may be madly in love, once the marriage has taken place each partner may feel a slight amount of discomfort when visiting/attending the other partners family/ friends / social functions, because they may feel 'out of place', because they may being to feel like all eyes are on them, that they were a curiosity.

Imagine the partner from the working class background attending a formal occasion like attending a 'high society' wedding from the upper class partners side of the family. And feeling that his/her accent, the social talk, which fork/spoon to use when, ..etc was all being observed with curiosity by prying eyes.

It may not amount to much, but it may make that partner reluctant to attend such functions in the future - to the chagrin of the other partner who doesn't understand why.

And similar issues when the roles are reversed, and the 'upper class' partner attends the 'working class' partners family functions and feels out of place.

It may not seem much, but over time it can start creating tensions "Why don't you want us to visit my parents ...or attend that coming-of-age social event ...?"

Now using similar logic, lets pick up again where its not social background but religious background.

If it was important enough to put up a charade for the religious conversion/wedding, then those reasons haven't gone away just because the wedding has taken place.

The 'convert' will feel all the eyes are on them if/when they attend family functions involving friends who were the reasons why the conversion charade was acted in the first place.

The rest is as per above.

Better to be up front at the outset rather than carry out a religious conversion charade, and then try to keep it up as time goes on.

You can apply that to many things not just religion...dating someone from a different nationality can bring about the same challenges but these things happen all the time...living in a different country means adjustments in terms of things like languages and traditions which i have had to learn having been an English teacher abroad for the majority of my teaching career...social class is but one factor...

As a Pakistani it is probably easier on your family if you marry a Pakistani in terms of culture and language but this doesn't mean other marriages don't take place...and nor should the challenge of diversity and change hold people back...if people are adaptable then situations are workable...

I'd say the two situations i've mentioned also are somewhat different...the atheist from Spain didn't really even see it as a problem or a compromise...it was a lie told for the sake of ease for him, his wife and his children...his wife being secular meant it had little impact on his life...and he's actually enjoyed the traditions which being an atheist he didn't have the luxury of...i'd say from a personal standpoint i'd fit into that...

My friend might be more opposed because he might have a moral position on some of the traditions which i can't say i'm particularly concerned about eg circumcision or say a baptism...

 

[shaykh]

If she does not believe in God , then why fake it up. Its not going to benefit her in any way.

It benefits her family who value their reputation...it of course doesn't benefit her in the eyes of God but that's not her criteria...her parents just don't want the daughter who married a non-Muslim...so if anything it's more for them than her...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You can apply that to many things not just religion...dating someone from a different nationality can bring about the same challenges but these things happen all the time...living in a different country means adjustments in terms of things like languages and traditions which i have had to learn having been an English teacher abroad for the majority of my teaching career...social class is but one factor...

As a Pakistani it is probably easier on your family if you marry a Pakistani in terms of culture and language but this doesn't mean other marriages don't take place...and nor should the challenge of diversity and change hold people back...if people are adaptable then situations are workable...

I'd say the two situations i've mentioned also are somewhat different...the atheist from Spain didn't really even see it as a problem or a compromise...it was a lie told for the sake of ease for him, his wife and his children...his wife being secular meant it had little impact on his life...and he's actually enjoyed the traditions which being an atheist he didn't have the luxury of...i'd say from a personal standpoint i'd fit into that...

My friend might be more opposed because he might have a moral position on some of the traditions which i can't say i'm particularly concerned about eg circumcision or say a baptism...

This is what I meant when I have made previous references to the Iman/Bowie relationship where both parties probably benefited. I've seen this in real life as well as mentioned in the example I gave of the English guy who converted to marry the Pakistani girl and seemed to have fit in very well with the stable life that has brought.

 

[Justcrazy]

It benefits her family who value their reputation...it of course doesn't benefit her in the eyes of God but that's not her criteria...her parents just don't want the daughter who married a non-Muslim...so if anything it's more for them than her...

When they find out later on , will they not be hurt ?

 

[Yossarian]

When they find out later on , will they not be hurt ?

They'll be hurt even more - far more than if they knew at the outset. Because now, on top of the original reason/hurt, there is the additional hurt of being lied to all these years by the one they loved and trusted the most, which is far, far worse.

 

[Justcrazy]

They'll be hurt even more - far more than if they knew at the outset. Because now, on top of the original reason/hurt, there is the additional hurt of being lied to all these years by the one they loved and trusted the most, which is far, far worse.

That was my point of asking that question.

 

[shaykh]

This is what I meant when I have made previous references to the Iman/Bowie relationship where both parties probably benefited. I've seen this in real life as well as mentioned in the example I gave of the English guy who converted to marry the Pakistani girl and seemed to have fit in very well with the stable life that has brought.

English folk ive noticed love marrying into foreign cultures...so much more interesting tradition wise than their own...i think for some people there are benefits to be had definitely...

 

[shaykh]

When they find out later on , will they not be hurt ?

I don't think its as simple as that...

If the girl was some hijabi who prayed a lot who introduced her revert boyfriend to her parents then that would be nefarious...

The girl is nominal in her belief...id argue that her parents arent much better...shes had a secular upbringing...they had no issue with my white atheist friend being her boyfriend...id say most conversions in these situations are known to be insincere by the parents in question...but then i feel that suits them just fine...the opposition to the non-Muslim husband imo and all i can do is speculate is to keep up appearances in the community or the wider family...its just not a good look for your daughter to be marrying a non-Muslim...

Those who are significant are in the know i'd think in most of these fake conversion cases...

 

[Justcrazy]

I don't think its as simple as that...

If the girl was some hijabi who prayed a lot who introduced her revert boyfriend to her parents then that would be nefarious...

The girl is nominal in her belief...id argue that her parents arent much better...shes had a secular upbringing...they had no issue with my white atheist friend being her boyfriend...id say most conversions in these situations are known to be insincere by the parents in question...but then i feel that suits them just fine...the opposition to the non-Muslim husband imo and all i can do is speculate is to keep up appearances in the community or the wider family...its just not a good look for your daughter to be marrying a non-Muslim...

Those who are significant are in the know i'd think in most of these fake conversion cases...

people should have been afraid of God , rather than other humans.

 

[Zak_Fan]

If the girl is way above my league, then sure.