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who are the famous hindu scholars of today?
Is sai baba considered a scholar?
I will not be surprised if Mahatma Gandhi is considered as God 100 years later
who are the famous hindu scholars of today?
AFAIK the caste system wasn't prevelant in ancient India.
The caste system began with the arrival of the Aryans in India. The Aryans arrived in India around 1500 BC. Before the Aryans there were other communities in India of other origins. Among them Negrito, Mongoloid, Austroloid and Dravidian. The Negrito have physical features similar to people of Africa. The Mongoloid have Chinese features. The Austroloids have features similar the aboriginals of Australia. The Dravidians originate from the Mediterranean and they were the largest community in India. When the Aryans arrived in India their main contact was with the Dravidians and the Austroloids. They began conquering and taking control over regions in north India and at the same time pushed the local people southwards or towards the jungles and mountains in north India.
The Aryans organized among themselves in three groups. The first group was of the warriors and they were called Rajayana, later they changed their name Rajayana to Kshatria. The second group was of the priests and they were called Brahmans. These two groups struggled politically for leadership among the Aryans. In this struggle the Brahmans got to be the leaders of the Aryan society. The third group was of the farmers and craftsmen and they were called Vaisia. The Aryans who conquered and took control over parts of north India subdued the locals and made them their servants. In this process the Vaisias who were the farmers and the craftsmen became the landlords and the businessmen of the society and the locals became the peasants and the craftsmen of the society.
In order to secure their status the Aryans resolved some social and religious rules which, allowed only them to be the priests, warriors and the businesmen of the society.
If you have read this thread then I am amazed you ask this question, it's SIF's aunt.....
Sorry SIF, i could not resist this one... Apologies in advance
By the way my last post is not mean to cause any emotional harm or to offend anyone. I just shared my personal observation, which might be inaccurate and I look forward to reading more on the subject from the Hindu posters here.
While I can appreciate your willingness to admit to this, I think this is what most Muslims would want to hear.
See with us followers of the Abrahamic faiths, the divinity of our spiritual beliefs matter a lot. If it is not absolute, it means it is not the word of God. And if it is not the word of God, it means its man made and subject to human interpretation.
You see this school of thought even more with Islam. In fact one of the reasons, why we consider Judism and Christianity to be dissimilar to Islam, (even though they have the same roots) is because we feel those two religions have been corrupted by man over time, chopped and changed based on the individual needs and preferences and hence do not maintain the original form the message was in as God intended when He bestowed it upon Moses, Jesus, etc.
This is a big debate here as well, but that is why THE LAST PROPHET status of Muhammed (PBUH) is so important to us because we believe our religion is in its absolute complete form with Quran and Fiqh. Our Holy Book has been the same, our laws have been pretty much the same, and they cover most aspects of human life. In Islam, you believe in them without question, because it is a matter of faith,.
In Hinduism, it seems the direct opposite, seems like every poster has his own interpretation and where everyone seems to agree is its aspect of flexibility. To me it sounds like I can do whatever I want and can still be a Hindu. Very arbitrary guidelines and
laws
Possible and that's actually what I like about Hinduism, it's willingness to adapt and learn......
Yes the internet promotes open discussion but it is very rare that it changes the opinion of someone. I have discussed this very points in real life too although with dire consequences. I have slowed down with age and mostly other responsibilities.
However just for discussions sake, you seem to be sitting on the fence on most important issues like many posters here.
On the one hand you claim to be a man of science and talk about the need for reform on many issues but on the other you put it all down to having blind faith and not having enough "knowledge" to decide for yourself. On one side you want the scholars of Islam to discuss and determine everything for you and on the other you're vary of Mullahs. You seem to want the best of both worlds. Mamoon and a few others come to.kind. Atleast others like TGK and Chacha know what they want and have the cojones ro stick with it.
Also as SIF mentioned, once its about religion no matter how good your intentions, common sense goes out the window. The written word must be followed no matter what the price to ourselves and others. You believe that you are an inferior being and do not have the intellect or willpower to change something that you think is wrong and is predetermined by a higher entity.
Systematic indoctrination and pride also come into play. If well educated and reasonable people who have been living in a free soceity like yourself can defend these outdated ideas and burdens of the forefathers then there is no hope for the others.
That's not adapting and learning, it's plagiarism. Taking every new idea then calling it Hinduism is cheating slightly is it not? While I think adopting new ideas is an admirable trait, I'm not sure giving them the cloak of the old brand name is doing justice to where the ideas have originated.
Can you give me an example of this cheating / plagiarism that you think Hinduism has done ?
Giving up the Hindu custom of Sati. Was that down to the Moghuls/British or was it Hindus themselves who decided this was an outdated concept?
Leave Pandu.None of Lord Rams mothers commited SATI after his Father King Dasrath died.I am not getting your point. Can you elaborate reg the plagiarism reg this issue?
Forced Sati was never in the ruling. Optional sati was (for kshatriya women only). Eg - Pandu's 2 wives (on lived and one died according to their choice).
Some community practiced forced sati which doesn't make it valid. They were still wrong and glad its abolished legally.
Leave Pandu.None of Lord Rams mothers commited SATI after his Father King Dasrath died.
I am not getting your point. Can you elaborate reg the plagiarism reg this issue?
Forced Sati was never in the ruling. Optional sati was (for kshatriya women only). Eg - Pandu's 2 wives (on lived and one died according to their choice).
Some community practiced forced sati which doesn't make it valid. They were still wrong and glad its abolished legally.
What is there to elaborate? It has been claimed that the strength of Hinduism is that it can adapt to anything, which I said was admirable, but then you can't adopt something from western world then still call it Hinduism. Sati was banned by British East India company in 1829. Was that Christian inspired action or in fact Hinduism carried out by the British?
Vishwamitra was not a born Brahmin - do you know? Based on his work/knowledge he was called a brahmin.
Brahmin/Kshatriyas are just the classification and nothing to do with what God has given to us.
Rama was born kshatriya but he showed that all people are equal by eating shabari's ber. He was out to prove that caste system is just a classification based on the work and nothing else.
The curse of Karna was for the lie and not for being a shudra or kshatriya.
very simple, u believe in one god who stays in vaikuntam ( brahman okate), do u think he will classify his creation on the basis of birth?
Giving up the Hindu custom of Sati. Was that down to the Moghuls/British or was it Hindus themselves who decided this was an outdated concept?
Ok...so what did Hinduism claim from this Sati ban?
Forced Sati wasn't allowed anyway but some communities did it and British banned it.
Leave Pandu.None of Lord Rams mothers commited SATI after his Father King Dasrath died.
Let me expand on Cpt Rishwat's comments a bit because I think I understand where he is coming from.
The point is same I was trying to make earlier that if you believe in something, a religion, a philosophy, way of life, etc then it has to be absolute. If you start chopping and changing as a means to adapt to times or to your own preferences then its not in its true form. If you start adapting practices or ideologies of other religions (and I dont mean negative stuff, obviously you do it because it is positive for you) then really what you are practicing is a form of your original beliefs mixed in with other beliefs. So thats where his idea of plagiarism is coming from, a bit crude but I think it is a fair point.
It sort of dilutes the authenticity and genuine nature of your original belief, wouldn't you say?
and I did not say this with a particular aspect in mind, I see you guys debating Satti. My observation is more in a general sense.
Interesting. So Hinduism permits polygamy?
Let me expand on Cpt Rishwat's comments a bit because I think I understand where he is coming from.
The point is same I was trying to make earlier that if you believe in something, a religion, a philosophy, way of life, etc then it has to be absolute. If you start chopping and changing as a means to adapt to times or to your own preferences then its not in its true form. If you start adapting practices or ideologies of other religions (and I dont mean negative stuff, obviously you do it because it is positive for you) then really what you are practicing is a form of your original beliefs mixed in with other beliefs. So thats where his idea of plagiarism is coming from, a bit crude but I think it is a fair point.
It sort of dilutes the authenticity and genuine nature of your original belief, wouldn't you say?
and I did not say this with a particular aspect in mind, I see you guys debating Satti. My observation is more in a general sense.
For kshatriyas YES.
For Brahmins and others not sure.
I will say that Ramayana and Mahabharata are stories of people who died protesting caste system and were later portrayed as villains by the scholars.
Duryodhana was also an atheist. He believed in equality and one outcome of that was he made Karna (whom everyone believed to be a low caste) as king.
Jarasandha had people from the lower castes as his main commanders. But he was deceived and killed by Krishna who did not favor the breakdown of the caste system.
Why, even Vidura was born to one of the servants in the palace but was lucky to be in a much better position because of Bhishma..
And you say Parasuram cursed Karna only because he lied..Parasuram was supporter of the caste system to the core and his anger was because a supposedly Shudra caste boy had lied and learned the use of weapons from him..
I think Ravana also though proud to be a half brahmin believed in equality..same with case of Mahabali who was deceived by Vishnu just because he believed all people were equal..
So sati is more a cultural phenomenon than religious? As in it is not considered holy, permissible, etc in the religious scriptures?
But Sati was not part of religion, no Hindu woman was supposed to be killed along with her dead husband in the first place and thank heaven's we adapted...
Optional sati is there (for kshatriya females) but forced Sati is not.
Is suicide encouraged in Hinduism? If not then, from a philosophical perspective, there is not much difference between forced and optional.
I don't understand how you can be atheist and still follow Hinduism as some posters have mentioned. Either you follow it, or you don't. It just seems like a method to try make it seem like the religion is moderate and modern compared to other religions and without any of the bad bits.
Can someone explain?
Who suggested that you can be atheist and follow Hinduism? You should ask them cos its their personal opinion.![]()
I get the general point.
I was asking about the Sati example he gave.
Research is your friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism
Before you turn all 'sensible' !
First we need to understand the concept of “GOD” what it is to (hindus) and what it is to Theists /Atheists /Agonists
The SUPREME in Abrahamic Religion means “GOD “and HE is a BEING
They believe in god/gods as supreme authority who lays down code of conduct, sits in judgement of man s actions to punish /rewards one with haven/hell after death.
To the (hindus) This SUPREME, is a STATE of super CONSCIOUSNESS they call Paramathma /Brama and It is not a BEING like HE or a SHE. Their aim is MOKSHA, and to them everything is a result of their own action they call KARMA there is no one sitting on top rewarding and punishing.
So technically speaking (hindus) have NO “GOD “and THIS would make them ALL Atheists in the view of Abrahamic Religions .
Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) believes that FREEDOM of THINKING is the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT of every man/woman. GOD / no GOD,/ I am GOD is one’s own choice.
This FREEDOM is what gives space for ATHEISTS in (Hinduism) and people say Atheism is a part of (Hinduism).and an Atheist can be both a Hindu and Atheist at the same time.
and to support the above I take from th most common man (hindu) scriptures like Ramayana Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita ,which the (hindus ) live by.
In the Bagavath Geetha,. which is epitomized in the shloka “ Sarva vedhantha saara sangraha bootham idham Bagavath Geetham”…meaning the essence of all the Vedas is contained in this thing called the Bagavath Geetha, after explaining it all ( the Vedas ) in the last chapter Sri Krishna says….
“Ithithe gyanam akkyatham .. Guhyath guhyatharam maya… vimarshasee aasheshena Yethechyasi thatha karu”verce 63 XVIII chapter..meaning …
Thus hath wisdom, most secret of all secrets , been given to thee by ME. Analyse it in detail Then, act as thou desire.
There by leaving the final decision to the individual ,That is U
And to Quote a few more….
Yoga Vashista (the B.G equivalent in Ramayana)
Yukti yuktanaam upadeyam .. baladahpi shukadapi.
Apa yukthanaam PADMA-JANMANA( the one born from the lotus… that is the Bramhan) meaning …. What is within your logical understanding … accept it .. even if it comes from a parrot or a child (here the reference of parrot and child is given as an indications of ignorance)and what dose not fall within your logical reasoning … reject it even if the Brahman tells u So!
Bhagavad Gita Bhashya by Sri Sankaracharya
"Shruthi shathamapi … shetheshu agni , na Prakasho ! …. Naa Grahyam ".
Meaning …. Even if 100 scriptures come and tell me .. Fire is cold .. and has no light…
I cannot digest it.!…
So ALL the (hindu) scriptures one can dismiss if one does not agree with it .
Now does this not provide space for Atheists ?
Sati was just one example off the top of my head as it is something which all over the world is more associated with Hindu religion than all others. My point being that it's easy to dismiss every bad aspect of Hindu religion like caste and Sati, then adopt other beliefs and claim this was Hinduism all along as Hinduism is all encompassing (except for the bad bits which are faults of other beliefs and religions).
Research is your friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism
Before you turn all 'sensible' !
I'm inclined to believe his version over your all encompassing "Hinduism is everything good and the bad comes from somewhere else" version.
^^^ Bhai ! Context has nothing to with posts....the statement was does atheism have a space in hinduism which you seem to decline...if that was not what you intended ! Sorry !
8 out of the 9 hindu philosophies have nothing to do with god...
http://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-atheist-while-being-Hindu
That part I agree but sati isn't a valid example (expanations given) and leg side flick asked you for examples on what Hinduism plagiarized and called it as their own.
Supreme consciousness can't be equated to atheism (which is a belief that no such supreme force in action).
Its just word play.
I will go thorough your post in detail tomorrow.
^^^ Bhai ! Context has nothing to with posts....the statement was does atheism have a space in hinduism which you seem to decline...if that was not what you intended ! Sorry !
8 out of the 9 hindu philosophies have nothing to do with god...
http://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-atheist-while-being-Hindu
Even good comes from somewhere else !
As long as you believe there are different paths to attaining moksha...you are a hindu ! and the philosophy with which you choose to do that..is in your hands....aside from basic things of doing good and harming no one !
Suicide is seriously discouraged in Hinduism.
Wives of kings are under no pressure to die after their husbands. Examples are there in itihas (Ramayana, Mahabharatha) all over.
I don't know the exact reasons for why its allowed (by choice) for kshatriya females so I have to find that out.
Very very interesting. Kind of throws the whole thing out the windows, doesn't it?
So let me put this to the test: if there were a Hindu yogi who had devoted himself to asceticism and non-violence, and he saw an armed soldier molesting a young child, would he be better than a Christian who shot the soldier to stop the molester?
Sati was outlawed by the British after several failed attempts by the Mughals to do so. If it wasn't part of Hindu culture, then why were Hindus so reluctant to give it up? This is like me claiming that jihad was a western concept adopted from the Crusaders and the barbarians before them that inspired it in 1000BC.
He wont be ! because he saw something wrong and he let it happen ..... it is good as harming the person and the christian will be rewarded if rest of the life is as good !
Never denied Sati wasn't there in Hindu culture. Not in any of the posts here.
1. Sati is there in texts.
2. Forced sati which was happening is not there. Communities once they start doing something don't give up and it was a cultural thing for some of the communities.
3. British banned it.
When leg side flick asked about what aspects were plagiarized by Hinduism, you said Sati. I asked why you mentioned that and my subsequent posts were regarding that.
But in the previous post you said the main criteria was to do good and harm no one. By shooting a man that seems to violate that non violence principle quite conclusively.
Suicide is discouraged yet hinduism ''allows'' for Sati. It naturally follows from this that it thinks there are heavy benefits to it that outweigh suicide being ''seriously discouraged''. This is why the distinction between forced and choice seems theoretical to me since it's obviously encouraged by not having the prohibition against suicide apply in this case.
Never denied Sati wasn't there in Hindu culture. Not in any of the posts here.
1. Sati is there in texts.
2. Forced sati which was happening is not there. Communities once they start doing something don't give up and it was a cultural thing for some of the communities.
3. British banned it.
When leg side flick asked about what aspects were plagiarized by Hinduism, you said Sati. I asked why you mentioned that and my subsequent posts were regarding that.
Bro....you didn't read my prev comments fully or you didn't get them.
Sati isn't allowed for all castes. Only kshatriya females (I said I have to check that part out).
There are NO HEAVY benefits to Sati outweighing anything.
Lord Rama's mothers didn't do Sati nor did many of the wives of kshatriya warriors who died in Ramayana, Mahabharatha.
For other castes, the question itself doesn't arise.
Just cos some crazy Rajputs forced widows doesn't mean its natural for all and is prescribed for all.
Just being Rhetorical now?
Just following your train of thought and trying to get a straight answer. It was your statement after all.
I think the sati is a dead issue. It is not mandatory by their religious texts so that should settle it.
I am more interested in the link posted by ignited mind. I dont know maybe I am misreading it but sounds like Hinduism is all about self ascension to a higher plane of though and existence and not about worshipping the creator.
If that is the case, how do you explain the concept of creator, preserver and destroyer?
Basically ! Hinduism is all about karma..and attaining moksha...than believing in god..or not believing in god !
so what about hte dieties that represent creation, preservation and destruction then? Who creates or created man? How did that come about?
I understand the concept of Karma but it does not address the questions of creation.
So it doesnt tell you what to believe in but leaves it upto you? Is that right?
If there are no benefits to it then why do the scriptures lift the prohibition on suicide for it? You seem to completely miss my point, it doesn't matter from a philosophical perspective how many people do it or from what caste. What is the justification behind allowing it when it's obvious that life is sacred in hinduism?
Sati was banned by the British and it was a practice which they themselves didn't follow. So unless Sati is still being practised today, then Hindus have adopted a better way (British Christian) which means ditching Sati. To then adopt this new way and claim it was always part of Hinduism is what I refer to as plagiarism. You can see examples of it even in this thread.
They are just there ! I think from my understanding and what I have been taught and read..They are people...and they did great things and people 'chose' to worship them. And at various times in history they took rebirths to do good...and all of these are mythological than hard religious text books like bible or quran ! Hinduism , you can consider anything good as god..and it is believed everybody and everything has godliness in them which explains crores of gods....
If there are no benefits to it then why do the scriptures lift the prohibition on suicide for it? You seem to completely miss my point, it doesn't matter from a philosophical perspective how many people do it or from what caste. What is the justification behind allowing it when it's obvious that life is sacred in hinduism?
This is why the distinction between forced and choice seems theoretical to me since it's obviously encouraged by not having the prohibition against suicide apply in this case.
so who created us then? does Hinduism address that question?
OK...I think I worded my "benefits" comment wrongly.
Sorry about that.
I get your point now.
It could be extra benefits or whatever but that doesn't equate to forced OR equate to reducing the gap between forced and optional.
The fact that Lord Rama's mothers didn't do it (even in the 2nd Yuga which was considere more pious than 3rd Krishna's yuga) should make it clear that females don't have to die or are under moral pressure to do it.
The exact reasons for this rule - I have to find out.
Okay moving on, I have another question.
Why did Sikhs form their own religion, and what is it in Hindu religion that caused them to reject it and form the new religion of Sikhism?
Hinduism is a very very old religion and tons of Andh Vishwas (Superstitions) crept into it. Sikhs can correct me, Guru Nanak Dev rejected a lot of rituals and superstitions that got ingrained in the daily lives of Hindus.
Of course, there are other differences too like Caste System etc.
It's not shaheed,called balidaan, if you are referring to media, then they are what they are.shaheed in hinduism?? can someone plz explain this
10-15 years ago this wasnt even in their dictionaries & now its common in hiduism
It is unrealistic to follow a religious book written thousands of years back.
World and lifestyles changed with time.
Hindu religion had many bad practices; some were removed over time like sati etc.
Films like PK and God tusi great ho portraits real problems of my religion.
But they also educate people as well. Hindu religion allows changes.
Hopefully one day we will make our religion better
Okay moving on, I have another question.
Why did Sikhs form their own religion, and what is it in Hindu religion that caused them to reject it and form the new religion of Sikhism?
Just saw this thread again....
Trust you are now clear that Hinduism was not cheating and that no plagiarism was involved....
No, I think Hindus just incorporate new ideas and call them Hinduism. It's a bit like adopting a foreign name like Bobby Deol, or Jimmy Vadhera.