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Quinton de Kock, Kagiso Rabada continue to charge up the ICC Test player rankings

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South Africa players Quinton de Kock and Kagiso Rabada have continued to move up the rankings after impressive performances in the second Test in Hobart which helped their side take an unassailable 2-0 lead in the three-Test series against Australia.

Wicketkeeper-batsman de Kock and pace bowler Kagiso Rabada, both stars of past ICC U19 Cricket World Cups, have achieved career-best rankings after having already broken into the top-20 following fine performances in the opening Test in Perth.

De Kock top-scored in the Hobart Test with a knock of 104 to move up eight places to 12th position in the latest MRF ICC Player Rankings for Test Batsmen, which were released on Wednesday morning.

Rabada has jumped four places to take 16th slot in the MRF Tyres ICC Player Rankings for Test Bowlers. Rabada grabbed five wickets in the match, including four for 34 in the second innings.

Both de Kock and Rabada are still in the qualification period, which means they have a good chance of making more gains in the day-night Test in Adelaide, which starts on November 24.

In other gains for South Africa players, man of the match Kyle Abbott’s nine wickets have helped him move up 20 places to a career-best 36th position, batsman Tenda Bavuma’s innings of 74 has lifted him to a career-best 39th rank, while all-rounder Vernon Philander has returned to the top 10 among bowlers and the top five among all-rounders with match figures of five for 52 and 32 with the bat.

For Australia, Usman Khawaja’s scores of four and 64 have helped him move up five places to 29th position in the batsmen’s list, which is headed by his captain Steve Smith.
 
Batting (Till 16 Nov 2016)

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Position [/td][td]Points [/td][td]Player [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]897 [/td][td]Steve Smith [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]844 [/td][td]Joe Root [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]841 [/td][td]Kane Williamson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]832 [/td][td]Younus Khan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]809 [/td][td]Hashim Amla [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]786 [/td][td]AB de Villiers [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]784 [/td][td]David Warner [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]777 [/td][td]Ajinkya Rahane [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]765 [/td][td]Alastair Cook [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]745 [/td][td]Cheteshwar Pujara [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]744 [/td][td]Misbah-ul-Haq [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]741 [/td][td]Quinton de Kock [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]733 [/td][td]Azhar Ali [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]725 [/td][td]Virat Kohli [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]725 [/td][td]Adam Voges [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]720 [/td][td]Jonny Bairstow [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17 [/td][td]716 [/td][td]Angelo Mathews [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18 [/td][td]691 [/td][td]Asad Shafiq [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19 [/td][td]678 [/td][td]Dinesh Chandimal [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20 [/td][td]677 [/td][td]Kraigg Brathwaite [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21 [/td][td]675 [/td][td]Ross Taylor [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22 [/td][td]668 [/td][td]Tamim Iqbal [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23 [/td][td]661 [/td][td]Sarfraz Ahmed [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24 [/td][td]661 [/td][td]Murali Vijay [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25 [/td][td]633 [/td][td]Dean Elgar [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26 [/td][td]631 [/td][td]Moeen Ali [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27 [/td][td]625 [/td][td]Mominul Haque [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28 [/td][td]623 [/td][td]Darren Bravo [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29 [/td][td]614 [/td][td]Usman Khawaja [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30 [/td][td]612 [/td][td]Dhananjaya de Silva [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]31 [/td][td]611 [/td][td]Francois du Plessis [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32 [/td][td]603 [/td][td]Shakib Al Hasan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]33 [/td][td]602 [/td][td]Ben Stokes [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]34 [/td][td]585 [/td][td]Shaun Marsh [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35 [/td][td]580 [/td][td]Tom Latham [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]36 [/td][td]578 [/td][td]Kusal Mendis [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]37 [/td][td]571 [/td][td]Mohammad Hafeez [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38 [/td][td]570 [/td][td]BJ Watling [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]39 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]Temba Bavuma [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]40 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]JP Duminy [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]41 [/td][td]545 [/td][td]Rohit Sharma [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]42 [/td][td]535 [/td][td]Dimuth Karunaratne [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]43 [/td][td]517 [/td][td]Ravichandran Ashwin [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]44 [/td][td]514 [/td][td]Shikhar Dhawan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]45 [/td][td]513 [/td][td]Mushfiqur Rahim [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]46 [/td][td]512 [/td][td]Jermaine Blackwood [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]47 [/td][td]506 [/td][td]Kaushal Silva [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]48 [/td][td]503 [/td][td]Mahmudullah [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]49 [/td][td]499 [/td][td]Ian Bell [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]50 [/td][td]497 [/td][td]Marlon Samuels [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]51 [/td][td]490 [/td][td]Hamilton Masakadza [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]52 [/td][td]478 [/td][td]Imrul Kayes [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]53 [/td][td]474 [/td][td]Luke Ronchi [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]54 [/td][td]465 [/td][td]Gary Ballance [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]55 [/td][td]461 [/td][td]Joe Burns [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]56 [/td][td]454 [/td][td]Craig Ervine [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]57 [/td][td]446 [/td][td]Upul Tharanga [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]58 [/td][td]445 [/td][td]Wriddhiman Saha [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]59 [/td][td]442 [/td][td]Kusal Perera [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]60 [/td][td]439 [/td][td]Shane Dowrich [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]61 [/td][td]435 [/td][td]Sami Aslam [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]62 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]Jason Holder [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]63 [/td][td]428 [/td][td]Martin Guptill [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]64 [/td][td]413 [/td][td]Haseeb Hameed [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]65 [/td][td]412 [/td][td]Vernon Philander [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]66 [/td][td]410 [/td][td]Lokesh Rahul [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]67 [/td][td]410 [/td][td]Milinda Siriwardana [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]68 [/td][td]401 [/td][td]Denesh Ramdin [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]69 [/td][td]399 [/td][td]Corey Anderson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]70 [/td][td]394 [/td][td]Chris Woakes [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]71 [/td][td]390 [/td][td]Sean Williams [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]72 [/td][td]384 [/td][td]Mark Craig [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]73 [/td][td]384 [/td][td]Jimmy Neesham [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]74 [/td][td]383 [/td][td]Sikandar Sikandar Raza [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]75 [/td][td]381 [/td][td]Gautam Gambhir [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]76 [/td][td]378 [/td][td]Stephen Cook [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]77 [/td][td]372 [/td][td]Regis Chakabva [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]78 [/td][td]372 [/td][td]Ravindra Jadeja [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]79 [/td][td]370 [/td][td]Tino Mawoyo [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]80 [/td][td]363 [/td][td]Alex Hales [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]81 [/td][td]360 [/td][td]Mitchell Santner [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]82 [/td][td]347 [/td][td]Henry Nicholls [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]83 [/td][td]345 [/td][td]Roston Chase [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]84 [/td][td]340 [/td][td]Lahiru Thirimanne [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]85 [/td][td]339 [/td][td]Carlos Brathwaite [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]86 [/td][td]328 [/td][td]Asela Gunaratne [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]87 [/td][td]327 [/td][td]Mitchell Marsh [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]88 [/td][td]324 [/td][td]Peter Moor [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]89 [/td][td]324 [/td][td]Peter Nevill [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]90 [/td][td]323 [/td][td]Jos Buttler [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]91 [/td][td]323 [/td][td]Nick Compton [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]92 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]Graeme Cremer [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]93 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]Stiaan van Zyl [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]94 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]Shan Masood [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]95 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]Mitchell Starc [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]96 [/td][td]306 [/td][td]Leon Johnson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]97 [/td][td]296 [/td][td]Stuart Broad [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]98 [/td][td]260 [/td][td]Malcolm Waller [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]99 [/td][td]258 [/td][td]Shai Hope [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]100 [/td][td]257 [/td][td]Rangana Herath [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Bowling (Till 16 Nov 2016)

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Position [/td][td]Points [/td][td]Player [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]881 [/td][td]Ravichandran Ashwin [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]867 [/td][td]Rangana Herath [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]852 [/td][td]Dale Steyn [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]844 [/td][td]James Anderson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]820 [/td][td]Yasir Shah [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]805 [/td][td]Stuart Broad [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]796 [/td][td]Ravindra Jadeja [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]775 [/td][td]Mitchell Starc [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]770 [/td][td]Josh Hazlewood [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]761 [/td][td]Vernon Philander [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]731 [/td][td]Neil Wagner [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]715 [/td][td]Trent Boult [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]695 [/td][td]Morne Morkel [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]672 [/td][td]Dilruwan Perera [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]672 [/td][td]Shakib Al Hasan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]639 [/td][td]Kagiso Rabada [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17 [/td][td]637 [/td][td]Tim Southee [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18 [/td][td]617 [/td][td]Nathan Lyon [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19 [/td][td]601 [/td][td]Peter Siddle [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20 [/td][td]594 [/td][td]Chris Woakes [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21 [/td][td]579 [/td][td]Ben Stokes [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22 [/td][td]572 [/td][td]Dhammika Prasad [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23 [/td][td]562 [/td][td]James Pattinson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24 [/td][td]562 [/td][td]Ishant Sharma [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25 [/td][td]552 [/td][td]Wahab Riaz [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26 [/td][td]551 [/td][td]Mohammad Shami [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27 [/td][td]550 [/td][td]Moeen Ali [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28 [/td][td]535 [/td][td]Kemar Roach [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29 [/td][td]512 [/td][td]Devendra Bishoo [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30 [/td][td]509 [/td][td]Steven Finn [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]31 [/td][td]491 [/td][td]Bhuvneshwar Kumar [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32 [/td][td]468 [/td][td]Rahat Ali [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]33 [/td][td]463 [/td][td]Mehedi Hasan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]34 [/td][td]456 [/td][td]Umesh Yadav [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35 [/td][td]455 [/td][td]Zulfiqar Babar [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]36 [/td][td]447 [/td][td]Kyle Abbott [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]37 [/td][td]440 [/td][td]Nuwan Pradeep [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38 [/td][td]436 [/td][td]Taijul Islam [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]39 [/td][td]427 [/td][td]Shannon Gabriel [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]40 [/td][td]401 [/td][td]Suranga Lakmal [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]41 [/td][td]399 [/td][td]Amit Mishra [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]42 [/td][td]394 [/td][td]Doug Bracewell [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]43 [/td][td]388 [/td][td]Imran Tahir [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]44 [/td][td]384 [/td][td]Shaminda Eranga [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]45 [/td][td]380 [/td][td]Mark Craig [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]46 [/td][td]351 [/td][td]Dushmantha Chameera [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]47 [/td][td]343 [/td][td]Imran Khan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]48 [/td][td]342 [/td][td]Jason Holder [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]49 [/td][td]340 [/td][td]Sohail Khan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]50 [/td][td]317 [/td][td]Mark Wood [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]51 [/td][td]311 [/td][td]Mitchell Marsh [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]52 [/td][td]308 [/td][td]Milinda Siriwardana [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]53 [/td][td]301 [/td][td]Ish Sodhi [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]54 [/td][td]300 [/td][td]Jackson Bird [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]55 [/td][td]299 [/td][td]Dane Piedt [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]56 [/td][td]295 [/td][td]JP Duminy [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]57 [/td][td]290 [/td][td]Mitchell Santner [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]58 [/td][td]278 [/td][td]Simon Harmer [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]59 [/td][td]263 [/td][td]Mahmudullah [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]60 [/td][td]256 [/td][td]Mohammad Amir [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]61 [/td][td]249 [/td][td]Adil Rashid [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]62 [/td][td]249 [/td][td]Malcolm Waller [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]63 [/td][td]231 [/td][td]Tharindu Kaushal [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]64 [/td][td]230 [/td][td]Hamilton Masakadza [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]65 [/td][td]223 [/td][td]Carl Mumba [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]66 [/td][td]221 [/td][td]Graeme Cremer [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]67 [/td][td]214 [/td][td]Lakshan Sandakan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]68 [/td][td]209 [/td][td]Matt Henry [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]69 [/td][td]207 [/td][td]Angelo Mathews [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]70 [/td][td]207 [/td][td]Steve O'Keefe [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]71 [/td][td]190 [/td][td]Miguel Cummins [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]72 [/td][td]182 [/td][td]Corey Anderson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]73 [/td][td]182 [/td][td]Jimmy Neesham [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]74 [/td][td]180 [/td][td]Marlon Samuels [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]75 [/td][td]168 [/td][td]Varun Aaron [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]76 [/td][td]168 [/td][td]Jomel Warrican [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]77 [/td][td]167 [/td][td]Dean Elgar [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]78 [/td][td]167 [/td][td]Kane Williamson [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]79 [/td][td]162 [/td][td]Roston Chase [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]80 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]Kraigg Brathwaite [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]81 [/td][td]150 [/td][td]Shafiul Islam [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]82 [/td][td]144 [/td][td]Donald Tiripano [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]83 [/td][td]144 [/td][td]Stiaan van Zyl [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]84 [/td][td]127 [/td][td]Shuvagata Hom [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]85 [/td][td]126 [/td][td]Jeetan Patel [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]86 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]Mohammad Nawaz [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]87 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]Steve Smith [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]88 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]Gareth Batty [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]89 [/td][td]105 [/td][td]Dasun Shanaka [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]90 [/td][td]103 [/td][td]Joe Root [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]91 [/td][td]96 [/td][td]Zafar Ansari [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]92 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]Alzarri Joseph [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]93 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]Keshav Maharaj [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]94 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]Sean Williams [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]95 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]Christopher Mpofu [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]96 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]Dhananjaya de Silva [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]97 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]Chris Morris [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]98 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]Sikandar Sikandar Raza [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]99 [/td][td]68 [/td][td]Younus Khan [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]100 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]Martin Guptill [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Seems like Pujara is carrying too many points from 2013-14 because in the last couple of years, he has been nowhere near Azhar in terms of performance.
 
Seems like Pujara is carrying too many points from 2013-14 because in the last couple of years, he has been nowhere near Azhar in terms of performance.

That's cos Pujara is an insane beast in Asia.

Averages 61 for India (in Asia) from Jan 2015. Overall 57.

Even scored crucial runs on rank turners against SA when he was out of zone. When in zone, he was supreme against Swann, Monty in heavy spin tracks/rank turners. Slowly getting back to his old self in Asia.

He has his issues outside Asia but he is shaping up to be probably the greatest Test batsman in Asia. Doesn't just score big but also gets those impact runs in the toughest of conditions.

pujara.jpg
 
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Let's see if Ashwin even bowls somewhere near to what he is ranked in the remaining tests.

I expected him to lose more points.

As an AR, he is a gun. Has a sensor in his brain where his batting skills get activated when his bowling goes garbage. :))
 
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Seems like Pujara is carrying too many points from 2013-14 because in the last couple of years, he has been nowhere near Azhar in terms of performance.

You don't get too much weight for older years. Last two years carry more weight. You get more points for scoring against bigger teams.

Azhar played 3 bigger teams( Eng, NZ, SL) and two teams ranked 8th and 9th in the last two years. Azhar scored high against 8th and 9th rank teams, but scored very little against bigger teams. His combined average against teams ranked higher than 8th is in 30s in the last 2 years.

In the same time period, in 12 matches against bigger teams, Pujara averaged 53. So you have a combined average of 30s for Ali vs combined average of 50s for Pujara against bigger teams in the last 2 years. That explains it.
 
JP is ranked higher than Amir? LOL
Our bats really need to push for the top 15 position.
If QdK can be a top 10 bat and Elgar around 15-20, with AB and Amla around (barring injuries) we could have a good side. With Faf and Bavuma contributing here and there too.

I'll have a clear view of this team once they've completed the tours of NZ and Eng.
Hopefully without any injuries. Should we escape without a series defeat in both tours, then I'll be looking forward to going to Asia again. However Dale is such a crucial figure for us, we have no spinners, so we desperately need him there. I hope he gets over this persistent shoulder injury.

We seem to produce one great bowler per generation.
90's Donald and Pollock, 2000's Steyn, 2010's Rabada?
What's so upsetting is their careers intertwine rather than play together for 4-5 years. It would be nice to see Steyn and Rabada play together for at least 3 years with Steyn still as effective as his peak years.

Australia were so lucky everything came together. Warne-McGrath, Hayden-Langer whereas when we discovered Smith, Kirsten was on his last legs.
We discovered Steyn ,Pollock wasn't as effective in terms of being a strike bowler. So it was Ntini and Steyn. Even then, Steyn came on his own around 07, Ntini was declining. As with the trident of Pollock, Ntini and Donald.

It is so frustrating that we can't glue it together in either ODI's or Tests and have a dominant side. In the 90's we batted so deep but our top order wasn't as good and diverse as this current side. Yet we have a glaring need for an all rounder and a finisher today. We had that in abundance from the previous generation. Hell I'd take an Andrew Hall, never mind a Pollock or a Klusner.

Sorry for the rant but I'm so frustrated, it's either or with us. We've produced greats in both departments every decade but still we aren't far and away the best side. We've been borrowed a world class spinner in Tahir but still.
90's Kallis, 2000's Smith, AB and Amla, 2010's QdK (potentially)?
Why can't we glue it together?
I'm not even asking for Windies/Australia type of dominance. Just a good side capable of beating/destroying at home and while being competitive away. We had a good team recently however, they still couldn't beat Australia and England at home which sort of destroyed their legacy.
 
JP is ranked higher than Amir? LOL
Our bats really need to push for the top 15 position.
If QdK can be a top 10 bat and Elgar around 15-20, with AB and Amla around (barring injuries) we could have a good side. With Faf and Bavuma contributing here and there too.

I'll have a clear view of this team once they've completed the tours of NZ and Eng.
Hopefully without any injuries. Should we escape without a series defeat in both tours, then I'll be looking forward to going to Asia again. However Dale is such a crucial figure for us, we have no spinners, so we desperately need him there. I hope he gets over this persistent shoulder injury.

We seem to produce one great bowler per generation.
90's Donald and Pollock, 2000's Steyn, 2010's Rabada?
What's so upsetting is their careers intertwine rather than play together for 4-5 years. It would be nice to see Steyn and Rabada play together for at least 3 years with Steyn still as effective as his peak years.

Australia were so lucky everything came together. Warne-McGrath, Hayden-Langer whereas when we discovered Smith, Kirsten was on his last legs.
We discovered Steyn ,Pollock wasn't as effective in terms of being a strike bowler. So it was Ntini and Steyn. Even then, Steyn came on his own around 07, Ntini was declining. As with the trident of Pollock, Ntini and Donald.

It is so frustrating that we can't glue it together in either ODI's or Tests and have a dominant side. In the 90's we batted so deep but our top order wasn't as good and diverse as this current side. Yet we have a glaring need for an all rounder and a finisher today. We had that in abundance from the previous generation. Hell I'd take an Andrew Hall, never mind a Pollock or a Klusner.

Sorry for the rant but I'm so frustrated, it's either or with us. We've produced greats in both departments every decade but still we aren't far and away the best side. We've been borrowed a world class spinner in Tahir but still.
90's Kallis, 2000's Smith, AB and Amla, 2010's QdK (potentially)?
Why can't we glue it together?
I'm not even asking for Windies/Australia type of dominance. Just a good side capable of beating/destroying at home and while being competitive away. We had a good team recently however, they still couldn't beat Australia and England at home which sort of destroyed their legacy.

Eh, you are being too modest here. SA had a very good good team since re-admission. In test series wins, we are right up there with Aus despite not being s dominant at home. Away, we have done very well in the last 25 years despite having some poor series. I will say we have been more than competent away. We have not been as dominant as Aus or India at home, but still did pretty well.

I agree about not having many ATG bowlers at one time in their peak, but we did get a good run with Kallis, Smith, Steyn, Amla, AB coming together at the same time and it reflects in test performance in that period. In India, we always did well before this last series.
 
Eh, you are being too modest here. SA had a very good good team since re-admission. In test series wins, we are right up there with Aus despite not being s dominant at home. Away, we have done very well in the last 25 years despite having some poor series. I will say we have been more than competent away. We have not been as dominant as Aus or India at home, but still did pretty well.

I agree about not having many ATG bowlers at one time in their peak, but we did get a good run with Kallis, Smith, Steyn, Amla, AB coming together at the same time and it reflects in test performance in that period. In India, we always did well before this last series.

But why can't we glue it together?
Where was QdK when Kallis and Smith was around?
Australia not only had an ATG pacer in McGrath but had a world class spinner in Warne. And a very very good Gillespie.

We are likely to discover an all rounder again when AB and Amla are gone, meaning we have a weak top order which would prevent the middle lower order hitting the gas at full throttle due to the damaged caused up front.

We always lack balance, a complete team.
I'm aware of our good record and win/loss ratio but we've never been dominant and ruthless.
Would you say the SA side of 2007-2014 were a dominant side?

Take a look at our ODI side, we have about 4-5 players averaging 40+ two of those 45+ (capable of playing in tough conditions in terms of swing or spin).
We also have a world class spinner.
Yet Australia have no one averaging above 45, most of their bats average in the low 40's. They are so vulnerable against a moving ball, be it spin, seam movement or swing. However it cannot be argued, they are the best ODI side in the world. Their record over the last two/three years suggests that. Why?

This is the lack of ruthlessness I'm talking about. We have a better side, at least on paper, whilst Australia are winning matches on the cricket field which is it all matters.

Do you see the pattern I'm eluding to? Lack of ruthlessness to seize the opportunity and be the best side in the world.
We should be more than just a good side.
 
JP is ranked higher than Amir? LOL
Our bats really need to push for the top 15 position.
If QdK can be a top 10 bat and Elgar around 15-20, with AB and Amla around (barring injuries) we could have a good side. With Faf and Bavuma contributing here and there too.

I'll have a clear view of this team once they've completed the tours of NZ and Eng.
Hopefully without any injuries. Should we escape without a series defeat in both tours, then I'll be looking forward to going to Asia again. However Dale is such a crucial figure for us, we have no spinners, so we desperately need him there. I hope he gets over this persistent shoulder injury.

We seem to produce one great bowler per generation.
90's Donald and Pollock, 2000's Steyn, 2010's Rabada?
What's so upsetting is their careers intertwine rather than play together for 4-5 years. It would be nice to see Steyn and Rabada play together for at least 3 years with Steyn still as effective as his peak years.

Australia were so lucky everything came together. Warne-McGrath, Hayden-Langer whereas when we discovered Smith, Kirsten was on his last legs.
We discovered Steyn ,Pollock wasn't as effective in terms of being a strike bowler. So it was Ntini and Steyn. Even then, Steyn came on his own around 07, Ntini was declining. As with the trident of Pollock, Ntini and Donald.

It is so frustrating that we can't glue it together in either ODI's or Tests and have a dominant side. In the 90's we batted so deep but our top order wasn't as good and diverse as this current side. Yet we have a glaring need for an all rounder and a finisher today. We had that in abundance from the previous generation. Hell I'd take an Andrew Hall, never mind a Pollock or a Klusner.

Sorry for the rant but I'm so frustrated, it's either or with us. We've produced greats in both departments every decade but still we aren't far and away the best side. We've been borrowed a world class spinner in Tahir but still.
90's Kallis, 2000's Smith, AB and Amla, 2010's QdK (potentially)?
Why can't we glue it together?
I'm not even asking for Windies/Australia type of dominance. Just a good side capable of beating/destroying at home and while being competitive away. We had a good team recently however, they still couldn't beat Australia and England at home which sort of destroyed their legacy.

lol bro...this is like a topper crying cos he got only 95/100 and didn't beat the all time record of 99/100 in front of other classmates who managed to get only 75/100.

You know what we do to those guys?

We kill them.
 
But why can't we glue it together?
Where was QdK when Kallis and Smith was around?
Australia not only had an ATG pacer in McGrath but had a world class spinner in Warne. And a very very good Gillespie.

We are likely to discover an all rounder again when AB and Amla are gone, meaning we have a weak top order which would prevent the middle lower order hitting the gas at full throttle due to the damaged caused up front.

We always lack balance, a complete team.
I'm aware of our good record and win/loss ratio but we've never been dominant and ruthless.
Would you say the SA side of 2007-2014 were a dominant side?


Take a look at our ODI side, we have about 4-5 players averaging 40+ two of those 45+ (capable of playing in tough conditions in terms of swing or spin).
We also have a world class spinner.
Yet Australia have no one averaging above 45, most of their bats average in the low 40's. They are so vulnerable against a moving ball, be it spin, seam movement or swing. However it cannot be argued, they are the best ODI side in the world. Their record over the last two/three years suggests that. Why?

This is the lack of ruthlessness I'm talking about. We have a better side, at least on paper, whilst Australia are winning matches on the cricket field which is it all matters.

Do you see the pattern I'm eluding to? Lack of ruthlessness to seize the opportunity and be the best side in the world.
We should be more than just a good side.

No, we never looked to dominate each test and we were not a dominant side even in 2007-2014. Safety first to not lose was surely a factor in that.

I would say that Aus got lucky with so many ATG players coming in the same generational and then their approach of trying to win each game made them very dominant side. That approach won't do much without good players, but they got lucky to have pretty much every aspect covered.

Current Aus ODI side is not that impressive despite winning WC. I think on flat wickets, they have cracked the code of batting big and deep. So credit is due, but ODI side is not that great if surface has something to offer.

Let me put it this way. Even if you have many ATG players, but if you always play with safety first then you can never be as dominant as great Aus side. I am not saying that trying to win every game is the way to go for every team, but you get the gist.

You have to get extremely lucky to have all aspects covered at the same time. I am sure we will get a good all rounder sooner or later. We have produced the most number of good all rounders in history. But, some of the current gun players will be gone by then. Same thing with having more than one gun pacer.

Safety first mindset is probably having some impact when we play global ODI tournaments as well. Just my guess here. Then there is eternal rain with SA games.
 
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lol bro...this is like a topper crying cos he got only 95/100 and didn't beat the all time record of 99/100 in front of other classmates who managed to get only 75/100.

You know what we do to those guys?

We kill them.

You guys don't get my point or the entirety of it.
Buffet has made good points below i guess, I'll get to those.
I want a balanced side, not necessarily superstars or "gun" players. Those gun players are a part of the reason I'm frustrated in the first place. Lesser sides have defeated us without having gun players of their own.
Namely the Aussie side that won here in SA 2014, to some extent 2009.
England managed to escape with a draw 2009, and when we were vulnerable they took full advantage 2015.
And then there are WC chokes, which in part happen to a lack of balance. Then again other teams have had balance issues of their own and managed to win.
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] states below Australia were lucky to have all those guys in one team. Maybe, maybe not.
It could be argued Australia had two ATG bats after the retirement of S. Waugh in Ponting and Gilly. Two ATG bowlers in McGrath and Warne.
That's roughly 4 ATG. However what made them so strong was the players who were not great. They were very good, some excelled in certain conditions were they were utterly dominant (Hayden) and others were all rounded players (D Martyn, Langer). This is not luck, good players are a result of a good cricket system. As for great players? I don't know.

When you Look at SA we had Kallis, Smith, Amla maybe AB (due to being an all rounded player) and Steyn those guys could be argued to being greats of the game one day. If that is the case, then SA would have/had 5 great players without anywhere near the level of success Australia had, this is despite them being good players of spin and swing.
SA have more passengers than Australia, that's what really hinders us from achieving our true potential.

Similar to our ODI squad we have better players on paper than most teams but we aren't far and away. Yes we have weaknesses (all rounder to fill the 10 overs and a good finisher), but so does everyone.
AB, Amla average 50+ and can play on any surface in the world. Yet our results are underwhelming and poor than this current Aussie side which is not even special. We can't take our game to the next level despite having great players.
 
I used ATG players in my argument, but I meant simply very good players to cover all aspects. They even had a guy in Martyn who could play well on different conditions and change things. It's kind of hard to happen at any one time and I think luck does play some part in it.
 
You guys don't get my point or the entirety of it.
Buffet has made good points below i guess, I'll get to those.
I want a balanced side, not necessarily superstars or "gun" players. Those gun players are a part of the reason I'm frustrated in the first place. Lesser sides have defeated us without having gun players of their own.
Namely the Aussie side that won here in SA 2014, to some extent 2009.
England managed to escape with a draw 2009, and when we were vulnerable they took full advantage 2015.
And then there are WC chokes, which in part happen to a lack of balance. Then again other teams have had balance issues of their own and managed to win.
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] states below Australia were lucky to have all those guys in one team. Maybe, maybe not.
It could be argued Australia had two ATG bats after the retirement of S. Waugh in Ponting and Gilly. Two ATG bowlers in McGrath and Warne.
That's roughly 4 ATG. However what made them so strong was the players who were not great. They were very good, some excelled in certain conditions were they were utterly dominant (Hayden) and others were all rounded players (D Martyn, Langer). This is not luck, good players are a result of a good cricket system. As for great players? I don't know.

When you Look at SA we had Kallis, Smith, Amla maybe AB (due to being an all rounded player) and Steyn those guys could be argued to being greats of the game one day. If that is the case, then SA would have/had 5 great players without anywhere near the level of success Australia had, this is despite them being good players of spin and swing.
SA have more passengers than Australia, that's what really hinders us from achieving our true potential.

Similar to our ODI squad we have better players on paper than most teams but we aren't far and away. Yes we have weaknesses (all rounder to fill the 10 overs and a good finisher), but so does everyone.
AB, Amla average 50+ and can play on any surface in the world. Yet our results are underwhelming and poor than this current Aussie side which is not even special. We can't take our game to the next level despite having great players.

I just found your earlier post funny but yeah...I agree with you.

Great post.
 
If we pick the weakest 3 players in Aus side then they will walk into pretty much every test team right now. I think having that kind of coverage with few ATG players is going to propel any team to the next level. You are right about us never having that kind of balance and we always had few useless players to finish the team which was detrimental in dominating. But I still think that Aus got lucky to have all of them at the same time. Cricket system surely played it's part to have all of them, but I think luck played it's part in having all of them at the same time. Timing part is due to luck in my opinion.
 
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No, we never looked to dominate each test and we were not a dominant side even in 2007-2014. Safety first to not lose was surely a factor in that.

I would say that Aus got lucky with so many ATG players coming in the same generational and then their approach of trying to win each game made them very dominant side. That approach won't do much without good players, but they got lucky to have pretty much every aspect covered.

Current Aus ODI side is not that impressive despite winning WC. I think on flat wickets, they have cracked the code of batting big and deep. So credit is due, but ODI side is not that great if surface has something to offer.

Let me put it this way. Even if you have many ATG players, but if you always play with safety first then you can never be as dominant as great Aus side. I am not saying that trying to win every game is the way to go for every team, but you get the gist.

You have to get extremely lucky to have all aspects covered at the same time. I am sure we will get a good all rounder sooner or later. We have produced the most number of good all rounders in history. But, some of the current gun players will be gone by then. Same thing with having more than one gun pacer.

Safety first mindset is probably having some impact when we play global ODI tournaments as well. Just my guess here. Then there is eternal rain with SA games.

I think you've got really good points.
However that still doesn't explain our lack of ruthlessness. We dominated England in 09 and let it slip. Lost and drew with mediocre Aussie side at home.
Drew with India at home (OK maybe Steyn was alone that series)
Remember I'm not comparing us to the Aussie side or expecting that type of dominance. Taking into account that we always have three great players in a team, despite the good results and W/L ratio wouldn't you say we're underachieving slightly?
 
No coincidence that South Africa's performances are looking up with these two heavily contributing, couple of great long-term prospects for SA with amazing potential to improve.
 
If we pick the weakest 3 players in Aus side then they will walk into pretty much every test team right now.

Maybe I've missed something, but are you talking about right now here :irfan.

Edit : Oh wait, were you discussing the old Aussie team perhaps? Consequences of trying to join a convo halfway through.
 
If we pick the weakest 3 players in Aus side then they will walk into pretty much every test team right now. I think having that kind of coverage with few ATG players is going to propel any team to the next level. You are right about us never having that kind of balance and we always had few useless players to finish the team which was detrimental in dominating. But I still think that Aus got lucky to have all of them at the same time. Cricket system surely played it's part to have all of them, but I think luck played it's part in having all of them at the same time. Timing part is due to luck in my opinion.

Wiaan Mulder is key to our luck then.
As soon as he's finished with his exams he should get a contract with the Lyons effective immediately. Hopefully CSA can get a contract for him in the county championship during the winter break to accelerate his development.
Within a year he can/could be ready.
Perhaps give him his debut in the 7 ODI series against India next. We are in desperate need for an all rounder.
This guy is key.
 
No coincidence that South Africa's performances are looking up with these two heavily contributing, couple of great long-term prospects for SA with amazing potential to improve.

Wiaan Mulder needs to come good.
AB, Steyn and Amla will be gone in a few years. We need an extra youngster who can play for next 8-10 years
 
Maybe I've missed something, but are you talking about right now here :irfan.

Edit : Oh wait, were you discussing the old Aussie team perhaps? Consequences of trying to join a convo halfway through.

Not the current Aus team. Discussion was about great Aus team. Why they were so dominant and SA couldn't do the same despite having few ATG players? My argument was that their weakest link was much stronger than SA weakest links and having all those players at the same time was bit of luck. If Great Aus team was carrying few useless players like we carried during 2007-2014, I think Aus couldn't have dominated that much. Sum of all parts always pays off and Aus had pretty much all basis covered. Debate was mainly about luck playing it's part in having all those players at the same time and SA never having that kind of luck.
 
Wiaan Mulder is key to our luck then.
As soon as he's finished with his exams he should get a contract with the Lyons effective immediately. Hopefully CSA can get a contract for him in the county championship during the winter break to accelerate his development.
Within a year he can/could be ready.
Perhaps give him his debut in the 7 ODI series against India next. We are in desperate need for an all rounder.
This guy is key.

Hopefully, he develops quickly. I will throw few youngsters in bilateral ODI series and that may help. Identifying few young ones early can pay off big.
 
You guys don't get my point or the entirety of it.
Buffet has made good points below i guess, I'll get to those.
I want a balanced side, not necessarily superstars or "gun" players. Those gun players are a part of the reason I'm frustrated in the first place. Lesser sides have defeated us without having gun players of their own.
Namely the Aussie side that won here in SA 2014, to some extent 2009.
England managed to escape with a draw 2009, and when we were vulnerable they took full advantage 2015.
And then there are WC chokes, which in part happen to a lack of balance. Then again other teams have had balance issues of their own and managed to win.
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] states below Australia were lucky to have all those guys in one team. Maybe, maybe not.
It could be argued Australia had two ATG bats after the retirement of S. Waugh in Ponting and Gilly. Two ATG bowlers in McGrath and Warne.
That's roughly 4 ATG. However what made them so strong was the players who were not great. They were very good, some excelled in certain conditions were they were utterly dominant (Hayden) and others were all rounded players (D Martyn, Langer). This is not luck, good players are a result of a good cricket system. As for great players? I don't know.

When you Look at SA we had Kallis, Smith, Amla maybe AB (due to being an all rounded player) and Steyn those guys could be argued to being greats of the game one day. If that is the case, then SA would have/had 5 great players without anywhere near the level of success Australia had, this is despite them being good players of spin and swing.
SA have more passengers than Australia, that's what really hinders us from achieving our true potential.

Similar to our ODI squad we have better players on paper than most teams but we aren't far and away. Yes we have weaknesses (all rounder to fill the 10 overs and a good finisher), but so does everyone.
AB, Amla average 50+ and can play on any surface in the world. Yet our results are underwhelming and poor than this current Aussie side which is not even special. We can't take our game to the next level despite having great players.

you make good points

the fact is that the great Aussie/WI sides werent carrying passengers. Every player was a great or good play on his own

In the Saffer sides from 2008-15 (more or less) the problem was that there were too many meh players making up the numbers

If you compare top 4 SA players (Amla, AB, Steyn, Kallis) they are definitely in the same league as a group to the top 4 players of the other ruthless sides you refer to

But if you pick the worst 2-3 players of each side you will see that as a group, the Saffer group will be far and away the worst of the three meaning that 2 or so players in the side were never pulling their weight for the Saffers. More so in ODIs. Which is why despite beig a great side they are a rung below those 2 great sides
 
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