Ravi Ashwin, a toothless bowler in overseas conditions (excluding West Indies)

[ind_win]

A totally useless, toothless bowler in overseas conditions excluding WI.
52 overs and 3 wickets after eternal struggle in 4th innings.
Against a weak team, almost lost the match.

And his counterpart is far superior in bowling.
Let us not compare about their batting as that is not he is in team for.

This after costing India one test match in Eng.

If India wants to lose matches, it is good trying with chahal, kuldeep than ashwin who experiments.

And to those who think his batting is an advantage, his primary role is bowling.

I really think he is as good as out of ideas.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Ashwin did a top job given the conditions.

 

[latecut]

Lyon was gifted four easy wickets towards the end of Indian second innings otherwise he was struggling worse than Ashwin while bowling in the second innings. The pitch had become quite placid on the last day.

 

[Oligochaetes]

34-9-57-3
53-13-92-3

These are NOT bowling figures of a "toothless" bowler.

If Ashwin were a team, Australia would have been 149-6 at the end of one day of a test match

 

[BreadPakoda]

Shame that he was overbowled which could affect his performance going forward.

Almost 40 overs on the trot? That too when there’s little time before the next game.

Reminds me of Bhuvneshwar bowling 50% overs in an innings under Dhoni. If I remember correctly, he missed the next game due to injury. You don’t bowl your bowlers to the ground this way.

 

[Swashbuckler]

He isn't world class by any stretch of imagination in SENA but undeniably did a great job in this match. The flak he receives sometimes is way OTT, as if his previous failures cloud the judgments of fans while dealing with the present. 87 overs, 149/6 in a match where the final margin of victory was only 30 runs is a job well done, very well done in fact. He was the 2nd biggest contributor behind Pujara if you account for his rearguard effort along with Pujara when we were 125/6 on day 1.

 

[Mainul]

34-9-57-3
53-13-92-3

These are NOT bowling figures of a "toothless" bowler.

If Ashwin were a team, Australia would have been 149-6 at the end of one day of a test match

Good job

 

[Mainul]

It is injustice really to open thread like this. Ashwin gave more than 100 percent for his team and he did pretty pretty well not only with the ball but also with the bat. Champion player.

 

[Shandarchowka]

It is injustice really to open thread like this. Ashwin gave more than 100 percent for his team and he did pretty pretty well not only with the ball but also with the bat. Champion player.

Well that is the point, isn't it? His best is not good enough even for the weakened Australian team on a minefield of a pitch where the opposition counterpart has 'roughened' up the supposedly stronger Indian batsmen in the 1st and 3rd innings. Comical really.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Well that is the point, isn't it? His best is not good enough even for the weakened Australian team on a minefield of a pitch where the opposition counterpart has 'roughened' up the supposedly stronger Indian batsmen in the 1st and 3rd innings. Comical really.

Minefield? Did you even watch the match?

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

He bowled well today. Crappy thread.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Well that is the point, isn't it? His best is not good enough even for the weakened Australian team on a minefield of a pitch where the opposition counterpart has 'roughened' up the supposedly stronger Indian batsmen in the 1st and 3rd innings. Comical really.

Lol@ minefield. Turn was very slow today and was not that easy to get wickets. He did a good job building pressure.

 

[Shandarchowka]

Minefield? Did you even watch the match?

No, but I caught glimpses of commentary when Lyon was bowling to Indian batsmen. It was indeed a minefield then and Aswin bowled on 5th day. I suppose it is more than a minefield by then.

 

[BlackShadow]

Ashwin was very good this match, and he has improved everywhere in the world.

Having said that, I would still give Kuldeep a nod ahead in one of the upcoming Tests.

 

[BreadPakoda]

No, but I caught glimpses of commentary when Lyon was bowling to Indian batsmen. It was indeed a minefield then and Aswin bowled on 5th day. I suppose it is more than a minefield by then.

Appreciate your honesty about not watching the game.

The pitch had indeed slowed down by the fifth day and had little turn. And any way most of the wickets that Lyon got were literally gifted by batsmen. Catches on the boundary type. Not saying that he didn’t bowl well but the intention of the Indian batsmen was to score as many as they could against Lyon while Ozzies were dead batting Ashwin because they were never looking for quick runs.

Still Ashwin took some critical top order wickets and selflessly bowled over after over to keep things tight.

Spin bowlers have had difficulties controlling the run rate in Australia, albeit against a different attack. Still its never easy here. Keeping that in mind, Ashwin did a top job.

 

[jeetu]

Ashwin in tests
[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] Ashwin [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]overall [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]342 [/td][td]25.43 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Bangladesh [/td][td]2015-2015 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]37.2 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Sri Lanka [/td][td]2015-2017 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]38 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]41.1 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in India [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]38 [/td][td]234 [/td][td]22.68 [/td][td]49.2 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in West Indies [/td][td]2016-2016 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]23.17 [/td][td]46.2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in England [/td][td]2014-2018 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]32.92 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in South Africa [/td][td]2013-2018 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]46.14 [/td][td]101.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]in Australia [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]48.07 [/td][td]94.7 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[The Viper]

Thought Ashwin Bowled well in this test.

 

[wrongun]

Appreciate your honesty about not watching the game.

The pitch had indeed slowed down by the fifth day and had little turn. And any way most of the wickets that Lyon got were literally gifted by batsmen. Catches on the boundary type. Not saying that he didn’t bowl well but the intention of the Indian batsmen was to score as many as they could against Lyon while Ozzies were dead batting Ashwin because they were never looking for quick runs.

Still Ashwin took some critical top order wickets and selflessly bowled over after over to keep things tight.

Spin bowlers have had difficulties controlling the run rate in Australia, albeit against a different attack. Still its never easy here. Keeping that in mind, Ashwin did a top job.

Confused as to why you think a catch is a lesser wicket. That is what happens when you beat a batsman in flight and he's playing a shot- it goes up and gets caught. Beating a batsman in flight when they aren't playing a shot brings a different dismissal mode but credit goes to the bowler on both occasions. Lyon bowled beautifully and is the best off spinner in the world, that's why his figures are better than Ashwin.

 

[latecut]

Lyon were gifted four easy wickets towards the end of Indian second innings. Till that time he too was looking quite toothless.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Confused as to why you think a catch is a lesser wicket. That is what happens when you beat a batsman in flight and he's playing a shot- it goes up and gets caught. Beating a batsman in flight when they aren't playing a shot brings a different dismissal mode but credit goes to the bowler on both occasions. Lyon bowled beautifully and is the best off spinner in the world, that's why his figures are better than Ashwin.

Come on. It is easier getting wickets when the batsmen attack you - keep coming out of the crease, try to belt you to cow corner knowing there are fielders guarding the rope.

 

[Hasan123]

He bowled well in this game . If our fans can do banghra over Yasir winning a game in England they should respect and give credit to Ashwin for playing a part in winning in a game in Australia.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Stats aren’t everything - Ashwin did a decent job during the first test.

 

[Bhaijaan]

34-9-57-3
53-13-92-3

These are NOT bowling figures of a "toothless" bowler.

If Ashwin were a team, Australia would have been 149-6 at the end of one day of a test match

As a bowler who keeps things tight there qas never any challenge with Ashwin.

Where he lacks is being penetrarice enough to win matches for India, like Yasir Shah and Rangana Herath are able to for their countries.

 

[Shandarchowka]

Confused as to why you think a catch is a lesser wicket. That is what happens when you beat a batsman in flight and he's playing a shot- it goes up and gets caught. Beating a batsman in flight when they aren't playing a shot brings a different dismissal mode but credit goes to the bowler on both occasions. Lyon bowled beautifully and is the best off spinner in the world, that's why his figures are better than Ashwin.

Unfortunately some guys really underestimate the high catches and run outs. Both these modes of dismissals require a a lot of skill from both the bowler and the fielder as well. The fielder because they have to anticipate the chances and it is not like LoIs where you get them frequently.

 

[Shandarchowka]

Lyon were gifted four easy wickets towards the end of Indian second innings. Till that time he too was looking quite toothless.

I saw Lyon's bowling and he was making Indian batsmen dance to his tunes. He was way more threatening than Ashwin.

 

[Shandarchowka]

As a bowler who keeps things tight there qas never any challenge with Ashwin.

Where he lacks is being penetrarice enough to win matches for India, like Yasir Shah and Rangana Herath are able to for their countries.

Exactly. Ashwin isn't penetrative enough when conditions aren't conducive for him. This is where the likes of Lyon and Yasir are easily better than him.

 

[AuxiliA]

Where are you getting at. Ashwin was excellent in this match.

He bowled a mammoth 87 overs at an economy rate of just 1.70. Picked up 6 wickets @24.8. When was the last time you saw a spinner bowl so tight in Australia?

The reason he didn't pick up more wickets is because the Aussies identified him as the biggest threat and played him with a lot more respect. Much like the Indians did with Hazelwood.

 

[Arajit]

Please try to understand.
Australia had 6 left hand batters against India only had 1 left hand batsmen, while rest 10 were Right hand batsmen. The Adelaide pitch was slow with not much turn. Lyon exploited the foot marks to trouble all the right hand Indian batsmen (that's why pitch looked minefield for Lyon). While those foot marks were not available to Ashwin against Left handed Australian batsmen (6 out of 11) who scored 60% of the Australian Runs.
Considering this fact Ashwin did well

 

[jagatk]

I saw Lyon's bowling and he was making Indian batsmen dance to his tunes. He was way more threatening than Ashwin.

Actually he wasn't, India has 10 right handers and there was a big rough outside right hander's off stump. He targetted it well on the 3rd day but couldn't get much joy out of it, on the 4th morning if you watched him you would have seen there was much lesser bite to his bowling not because he suddenly was poor but pitch slowed down considerably, for ashwin it was much worse as he had no RHB's to target for most part and by the time he got them the pitch was much worse than lyon had as pitch slowed down even more.

If you watched the last day literally no indian bowler got anything out of the pitch, Pacers bowled tight lines much like ashwin but they can bowl the surprise short ball that ashwin can't and ashwin had 2 chances dropped off his bowling.

 

[Reyansh2017]

It was a real pain watching him bowl harmlessly all day

The problem with him is his lack of patience when batsman play him well. He does not stick to a line for a single over for god sake and tries too many things which won't work most of the time like in south Hampton

 

[Reyansh2017]

Fast bowlers literally saved his overseas career in this test. If india has lost this test he would be finished as a overseas bowler

 

[jagatk]

It was a real pain watching him bowl harmlessly all day

The problem with him is his lack of patience when batsman play him well. He does not stick to a line for a single over for god sake and tries too many things which won't work most of the time like in south Hampton

If he was so harmless and not sticking to bowling line and length how was he bowling under 2 an over that too mostly unchanged.

 

[Swashbuckler]

http://cricviz.com/2018/12/cricviz-analysis-australia-v-india-first-test-day-five/

As per the above article, Ashwin hit the footmarks with 42% of his deliveries while Lyon did it with 48%. Obviously Lyon scored higher because that is his normal style of operation while Ashwin tends to bowl closer to the stumps to bring all his variations into play. Also Lyon had to contend with 10 RHBs while when Ashwin was bowling there was left-right combo which makes it more difficult for the bowler to get the lines correct. Also harsh to spout vitriol against someone who bowled 87 overs in extremely hot conditions without releasing any pressure whatsoever.

- Picked 6 wickets, 5 of them top order including the best Aussie batsman twice cheaply

- Marathon spells (sum total: 1 full day's play !!!) to compensate for 4 man bowling unit, quicks were kept fresh courtesy his selfless laboring

- For large parts corrected his previous mistakes and bowled out of character/style

- Stifled batsmen completely, ER of 1.7 for a visiting finger spinner downunder is unprecedented

- Was a tad unlucky with a couple of dropped chances and edges flying to vacant 2nd slip/gully region

- Aussie batsmen refused to take chance against him giving him utmost respect like we did with Hazlewood, stats don't show that

Did nothing wrong this match, in fact his fierce determination played a big part in our triumph. Anger directed towards him is more because of past failures and the refusal of critics to be objective. By all means criticize his overall record overseas but to nitpick his minute shortcomings on a day we won a test in Australia after 10 years indicates some are't being fair. Apart from Pujara, who else can claim to have made a bigger contribution in this match from Indian side? I can't think of anyone.

 

[Reyansh2017]

If he was so harmless and not sticking to bowling line and length how was he bowling under 2 an over that too mostly unchanged.

Because the batsman are not taking chances against him. Compare his bowling to lyon who looked like taking a wicket every over

 

[Buffet]

He could have bowled better in 2nd inning, but he was far from toothless. He bowled very well in 1st inning. In second inning two catches were dropped. 90/3 to 90/5 would have looked far more better.

What I noticed that he was trying variations in middle rather than just keeping it tight and bowling in right areas. Patience goes a long way.

 

[jagatk]

Jeez, Lyon picked up 33.33% more wickets in 18% less overs at 40% better strike rate. Paints the picture perfectly.

He picked more wickets because we lost our heads and committed hara kiri trying to score runs to declare quickly, Aussies tried to stay as long as possible on the pitch blocking Ashwin and the wickets don't tell the big detail that Ashwin picked up wickets of big Aussie batsmen before they became an issue for india not after the damage was done ala Lyon.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Jeez, Lyon picked up 33.33% more wickets in 18% less overs at 40% better strike rate. Paints the picture perfectly.

100% of Ashwin's wickets resulted in win. 0% of Lyon's. Clearly, Ashwin is a match winner.

 

[Buffet]

Jeez, Lyon picked up 33.33% more wickets in 18% less overs at 40% better strike rate. Paints the picture perfectly.

Starc has 100/5 kind of figure, but he bowled crap. Using simply wickets is misleading. Lyon couldn't take wickets when it mattered and Indians had put runs on board. Total wicket is not going to do much if runs have been already scored.

I do think that Lyon bowled very well, but Pujara and Co. played him very well as well.

 

[Reyansh2017]

He picked more wickets because we lost our heads and committed hara kiri trying to score runs to declare quickly, Aussies tried to stay as long as possible on the pitch blocking Ashwin and the wickets don't tell the big detail that Ashwin picked up wickets of big Aussie batsmen before they became an issue for india not after the damage was done ala Lyon.

I agree with you that lyon got some cheap wickets of our batsman from slogs but you can see how threatening he was even when he was not taking wickets.

My main gripe with ashwin is that he doesn't even look like taking a wicket the whole day.
Hardly any plays and misses and not even one batsman looked in trouble even tailenders

 

[jagatk]

Because the batsman are not taking chances against him. Compare his bowling to lyon who looked like taking a wicket every over

He did not look like picking a wicket until pujara got out on 4th day, barely threatening or inducing false shots. You are too hungup on the 3rd day evening, the 4th day Aussie bowling was actually much closer to pitch that ashwin got and see how lyon bowled on it and how ashwin did, Lyon got Pujara and Rohit everyone else basically lost their heads, Ashwin similarly picked Finch and Khwaja while having 2 chances dropped off him.

 

[Shandarchowka]

I agree with you that lyon got some cheap wickets of our batsman from slogs but you can see how threatening he was even when he was not taking wickets.

My main gripe with ashwin is that he doesn't even look like taking a wicket the whole day.
Hardly any plays and misses and not even one batsman looked in trouble even tailenders

Absolutely. It's not just stats. Lyon looked very threatening and Ashwin most definitely did not.

/thread

 

[jagatk]

Absolutely. It's not just stats. Lyon looked very threatening and Ashwin most definitely did not.

/thread

By your own admission you did not watch the game so how did either look threatening or non threatening to you?

 

[Reyansh2017]

His bowling performance is similar to that of Mitchell starc whose figures really flatter their actual rubbish performances

 

[latecut]

As a bowler who keeps things tight there qas never any challenge with Ashwin.

Where he lacks is being penetrarice enough to win matches for India, like Yasir Shah and Rangana Herath are able to for their countries.

Yasir Shah and Herath may have done it at home but so has Ashwin. Since we are discussing Ashwin's bowling in Australia, let us see what Yasir Shah and Herath have achieved in Australia in tests.

Yasir Shah 3 tests 8 wickets for 672 runs at an average of 84 best bowling 3-207

Herath 3 tests 7 wickets for 312 at an average of 45 best bowling 4-95

Ashwin 7 tests 27 wickets at an average of 46 best bowling 4-105

Looking at the above figures, how are Yasir Shah and Herath better test bowlers than Ashwin in Australia ?

 

[Swashbuckler]

The pivotal portion of the match was Australia's 1st innings, had they taken a 30 run lead we would have mentally collapsed like it happened in England/SA, and 250 was a below par score. Ashwin was our best bowler and instrumental in getting us a vital 1st innings lead. For Lyon he had to step up in our 2nd innings but for most of the part he was toothless and allowed us to get a winning total. Only after our lead had crossed 270 did he cause damage, more to do with our stupid slogathon in the final part of our innings. Had Lyon struck on day 3 or even in the 1st 1.5 hours of day 4, we would have lost the match. But he was bowling too short and not hitting the rough consistently.

 

[Shandarchowka]

Yasir Shah and Herath may have done it at home but so has Ashwin. Since we are discussing Ashwin's bowling in Australia, let us see what Yasir Shah and Herath have achieved in Australia in tests.

Yasir Shah 3 tests 8 wickets for 672 runs at an average of 84 best bowling 3-207

Herath 3 tests 7 wickets for 312 at an average of 45 best bowling 4-95

Ashwin 7 tests 27 wickets at an average of 46 best bowling 4-105

Looking at the above figures, how are Yasir Shah and Herath better test bowlers than Ashwin in Australia ?

Will be nice to compare how Ashwin did after 3 tests - his first tour. Clearly, Ashwin had the advantage of bowling in 7 matches and evening up the stats a little.

 

[KP From India]

Lol! Sorry I have forget we have different criterion to judge Ash than Yasir/Herath
SA: Ash 3 matches : flop.
Nz: 2 matches: super flop
Eng :5 matches : super duper flop
WI: match winning spells:why didnt he take 10 wickets a match?
Aus:Got 6 wickets in match: why didnt he take 15 wickets a match?
Ind: Ash got 12 wickets a match: why cant he get 24 wickets in a test match?
Ash clean bowled batsman ball hitting off stump: Ash is so poor, cant even hit middle stump
Ash gets bat/pad: Without silly point, that was a four.
Ash decieves the batsman in flight and gets him caught in the deep: Without deep square leg, that was a six.
Ash bowl tight: Cant pick up wickets.
Ash pick wickets: cant bowl tight.
Ash pick up wickets bowling tight: first he had to bowl tight and then he should pick wickets
Ash bowls tight and pick up wickets: first he should get wicket..dont mind if he goes 5 RPO
Gets wickets in 1st innings: 2 nd innings decides the outcome of match.
Gets wickets in 2 nd innings: 1st innings sets the match up.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Almost all spinners are toothless bowlers outside Asia and West Indies. It's a fact of life and something that won't change. Some like Moeen Ali and Lyon can bowl well in their respective countries but they also have horrendous records in certain countries.

Point is that any sort of contribution that spinners make outside Asia is valuable because these kind of pitches are not conductive for spinners. And Ashwin certainly made major contributions in both innings.

 

[latecut]

Lol! Sorry I have forget we have different criterion to judge Ash than Yasir/Herath

Pakistan lost all the three tests in Australia where Yasir bowled.
Sri Lanka lost all the three tests in Australia where Herath Bowled.

But ofcourse they are better bowlers than Ashwin in Australia.

 

[KP From India]

In entire career of Herath, I have remembered, I have seen him winning only Durban test for SL single handedly in his all SENA tours combined. Can you list more matchwinning performances for Hetath in SENA?

 

[Swashbuckler]

Captain Kohli in the PC today:

Ravichandran Ashwin's role as India's lone spinner overseas has long been under consideration. He was dropped for debuting Karn Sharma in Adelaide in 2014, following growing scepticism around his ability to bowl India to a win on a fifth-day track away from home. There were similar murmurs about Ashwin again, after he picked only one wicket on the final day in Adelaide.

"He was given a specific role, yes. I think he was very economical and bowled in the right areas, just to create enough chances and keep one end tight, because we didn't want to go overboard in wanting him to attack too much because that would have opened up scoring options as well," Kohli said. "He did his role perfectly in the second innings."

Kohli's fields for Ashwin weren't a hit in the commentary box or on the social media, but the Indian captain reckoned that runs are important when you're playing four bowlers in a close game. And there's a right time to attack. And that there are more ways to attack that conspicuously having very aggressive fields for no returns.

"If Australia had been 50/4, we would have gone with our strike bowlers straight away and afford to give away a few runs," Kohli said about his morning tactic. "The fact that we went with Ashwin and Ishant this morning was because we had a template where they were scoring at 1-2 runs an over max.

"It is very important to keep an eye on the scoreboard and how many runs you have, where the game is heading and how the batsmen are playing as well. So I keep looking to improve on that because in the past there have been sessions where we have given too many runs in one go and as captain I have sat down and tried to plug in."

http://cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/105569/proud-to-have-picked-20-wickets-away-with-four-bowlers-and-kookaburra-kohli

Looks like Ashwin was bowling as per the team's plan and executed his role to perfection. Kudos to him for selflessly plugging away over after over without breaking discipline.

 

[Napa]

Please try to understand.
Australia had 6 left hand batters against India only had 1 left hand batsmen, while rest 10 were Right hand batsmen. The Adelaide pitch was slow with not much turn. Lyon exploited the foot marks to trouble all the right hand Indian batsmen (that's why pitch looked minefield for Lyon). While those foot marks were not available to Ashwin against Left handed Australian batsmen (6 out of 11) who scored 60% of the Australian Runs.
Considering this fact Ashwin did well

Good analysis, thanks.

Ashwin recently was ranked by ICC the #1 Test bowler. One needs class to get to #1, and he is class. Picking up 6 wickets at @25 and getting Australia's biggest batting threat Khawaja out twice was critical for India winning this Test.

 

[Napa]

My main gripe with ashwin is that he doesn't even look like taking a wicket the whole day.
Hardly any plays and misses and not even one batsman looked in trouble even tailenders

You obviously were watching a different game. Here is the 1st over Ashwin bowled to Cummins who went on to play for 121 balls, the second most after Marsh's 166 balls. 4 close calls in 5 balls for Cummins.

73.6 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, given out caught at short leg! Cummins reviews. This missed the footmark, he thrust pad and bat at it it came off pad bounced up and went to short leg. It bounced off the flap of the pad and maybe onto the wrist. There's nothing on the hot spot in terms of a spot on the glove. Snicko not helping the third umpire either. Third umpire recommends the decision is Not Out and overturned due to nothing on snicko or hot spot! Cummins survives.

73.5 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, targets the rough again, he stretches out with bat and pad and gets it past the man at silly mid off

73.4 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, another one rips from the rough, through the gate and hits Pant in the chest!

73.3 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, A review for caught behind! Given not out by Nigel Llong. It pitched in the rough and ripped back, he tried to drive and it goes between bat and pad to Pant. Hot spot and snicko show nothing. Clearly not out. Decision stands. India lose a review

73.2 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, appeal for a catch at short leg, it was all pad. It ripped from the rough and bounced off pad. No review

73.1 1 Ashwin to Paine, 1 run, angled into leg stump, he's back and working this square of midwicket

 

[rudra]

If he can get only khwaja/marsh out cheaply in both the innings I will play him.

 

[Reyansh2017]

You obviously were watching a different game. Here is the 1st over Ashwin bowled to Cummins who went on to play for 121 balls, the second most after Marsh's 166 balls. 4 close calls in 5 balls for Cummins.

73.6 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, given out caught at short leg! Cummins reviews. This missed the footmark, he thrust pad and bat at it it came off pad bounced up and went to short leg. It bounced off the flap of the pad and maybe onto the wrist. There's nothing on the hot spot in terms of a spot on the glove. Snicko not helping the third umpire either. Third umpire recommends the decision is Not Out and overturned due to nothing on snicko or hot spot! Cummins survives.

73.5 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, targets the rough again, he stretches out with bat and pad and gets it past the man at silly mid off

73.4 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, another one rips from the rough, through the gate and hits Pant in the chest!

73.3 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, A review for caught behind! Given not out by Nigel Llong. It pitched in the rough and ripped back, he tried to drive and it goes between bat and pad to Pant. Hot spot and snicko show nothing. Clearly not out. Decision stands. India lose a review

73.2 0 Ashwin to Cummins, no run, appeal for a catch at short leg, it was all pad. It ripped from the rough and bounced off pad. No review

73.1 1 Ashwin to Paine, 1 run, angled into leg stump, he's back and working this square of midwicket

If that is the best indias premier spinner going to offer on a 5th day pitch where he is supposed to be the main spinner then your expectations are very very low.

Mind you this is a 4man attack and not a 5man attack

 

[Bhaijaan]

Yasir Shah and Herath may have done it at home but so has Ashwin. Since we are discussing Ashwin's bowling in Australia, let us see what Yasir Shah and Herath have achieved in Australia in tests.

Yasir Shah 3 tests 8 wickets for 672 runs at an average of 84 best bowling 3-207

Herath 3 tests 7 wickets for 312 at an average of 45 best bowling 4-95

Ashwin 7 tests 27 wickets at an average of 46 best bowling 4-105

Looking at the above figures, how are Yasir Shah and Herath better test bowlers than Ashwin in Australia ?

How many test matches has Ashwin for for his team in SENA?

Yasir Shah has won 2 tests in England single handedly

Herath won it for his team in South Africa single handedly.

As a match winner in SENA Ashwin is nowhere near Shah or Herath. A fact.

At home though Ashwin is amazing but behind Jadeja.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

He was toothless compared to Lyon considering the lineup he was bowling to. Otherwise did a good job containing the run rate.

 

[Napa]

If that is the best indias premier spinner going to offer on a 5th day pitch where he is supposed to be the main spinner then your expectations are very very low.

Mind you this is a 4man attack and not a 5man attack

I am not going to get into an argument about "expectations", something that is nebulous and we will disagree about. My point was that you were factually wrong when you wrote "he doesn't even look like taking a wicket the whole day", but I do not expect you to admit that you were wrong.

 

[gazza619]

I am not sure why Chahal does not get a chance.

 

[KP From India]

Durban wicket gets more turn than some subcontinent wickets.

 

[BaankeJi]

He was toothless compared to Lyon considering the lineup he was bowling to. Otherwise did a good job containing the run rate.

True. I think so too.
I expected much more from him.

 

[latecut]

If one looks at the scoerecard rather than the match, then Ashwin was toothless. By that token Bumrah was toothless as well. Both claimed 6 wickets each in the match, at 3 wickets per innings.

 

[Ab Fan]

He is very good but nothing extraordinary. I will pick Kumble over him but he is a better batsmen than Kumble. So, it all equals at the end.

 

[ind_win]

Fast bowlers saved his place in the team.
The same ashwin, if he had picked 2-3 wickets more India could have won one more test match in England, do not remember the match number or location.

Not saying he is not good. He is not incredible, super, consistent, unmissable, compulsory in the team.
He is always like kumar of spin department, relies on conditions.
And when conditions are favorable too, he over experiments.

And to compare with kumble, it is a shame for kumble.
He was less talented than ashwin but 10 times more player than aswhin could ever be.
Always gave 100% to the team, irrespective of the conditions - never thought opposition to be idiots.

How easily fans forgive losses.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Fast bowlers saved his place in the team.
The same ashwin, if he had picked 2-3 wickets more India could have won one more test match in England, do not remember the match number or location.

Not saying he is not good. He is not incredible, super, consistent, unmissable, compulsory in the team.
He is always like kumar of spin department, relies on conditions.
And when conditions are favorable too, he over experiments.

And to compare with kumble, it is a shame for kumble.
He was less talented than ashwin but 10 times more player than aswhin could ever be.
Always gave 100% to the team, irrespective of the conditions - never thought opposition to be idiots.

How easily fans forgive losses.

Ashwin was playing injured in the Southampton test, that was team management's fault. He did very well in the 1st test and had we won he would have been remembered more fondly.

Who told you Ash doesn't give 100% for the team? Bowling 87 overs at ER 1.7 in 42 degrees Adelaide heat isn't 100% effort? Kumble was an Indian legend but he too messed up plenty of times overseas, if you lived through the 90s you would know what I am saying. It is rare for Asian spinners to be match winners in SENA.

 

[ind_win]

Ashwin was playing injured in the Southampton test, that was team management's fault. He did very well in the 1st test and had we won he would have been remembered more fondly.

Exactly - India lost.

Who told you Ash doesn't give 100% for the team? Bowling 87 overs at ER 1.7 in 42 degrees Adelaide heat isn't 100% effort? Kumble was an Indian legend but he too messed up plenty of times overseas, if you lived through the 90s you would know what I am saying. It is rare for Asian spinners to be match winners in SENA.

1. Heat is not new to Indians or is not exclusive to ashwin alone.
2. He bowled with a broken jaw and dismissed lara at his peak.
3. Agree, kumble bowled without results but never was treated without respect.

Not to say ashwin is useless in totality.
He is not doing justice to his experience and talent.

My complaint is he has not evolved himself at the last 4-5 years of his career also.
That will not help him or the team.

 

[Swashbuckler]

1. Heat is not new to Indians or is not exclusive to ashwin alone.
2. He bowled with a broken jaw and dismissed lara at his peak.
3. Agree, kumble bowled without results but never was treated without respect.

Not to say ashwin is useless in totality.
He is not doing justice to his experience and talent.

My complaint is he has not evolved himself at the last 4-5 years of his career also.
That will not help him or the team.

1. I am saying Ashwin too gives his best. He showed great discipline and did what the captain asked in this match, check Kohli's PC.
2. Not denying Kumble's courage or tolerance to pain. But just because he was very courageous doesn't mean Ashwin lacks guts.
3. Kumble and Srinath, our 2 stalwarts, failed to close out many matches in SENA in the 90s. Kumble was violated quite often even in Sri Lanka, forget SENA. Ashwin helped us beat a strong (Sanga, peak Herath/Mathews etc) Sri Lanka in 2015, after a gap of 22 years.

He has evolved. He was very poor in the 2011-14 period. But then won MOS in WI and Lanka. Bowled much better in England, SA and Australia this year, especially in a few tests like Centurion, Edgbaston and Adelaide. He is never going to be like Murali (himself awful in Australia/India) we have to accept that fact. But he can be a good support bowler for the quicks, kinda like a consistent performer without being a tearaway. We have to accept him for what he is, hopefully in a few years time someone like Kuldeep can develop into a serial matchwinner in SENA for us.

Whatever said and done no need to downplay Ash. Guy was MOS 7 times (Indian record) and a key player in our rise to number 1. He hasn't been the same since the 2016 sports hernia so the recency bias is there. But we must respect what he has done and hope he does well whenever he wears Indian jersey. Statements like "Kumble was 10 times the player Ashwin could ever be" is unwarranted. We always have the tendency to over rate the past and take the present for granted. 10 years from now some will make the same statement while judging a rookie with a retired Ashwin if things don't go our way then. We need to live in the present and enjoy the current set of players without reminiscing about the past or nostalgic revisionism. We have won the Adelaide test, 1st time ever we are 1-0 up after 1st test in Australian soil, why the negativity?

 

[ind_win]

2. Not denying Kumble's courage or tolerance to pain. But just because he was very courageous doesn't mean Ashwin lacks guts.

Kumble's physical stretch was not highlighted to make him look greater. Just because one of the poster brought a comparison with kumble, he was in the picture.

3. Kumble and Srinath, our 2 stalwarts, failed to close out many matches in SENA in the 90s. Kumble was violated quite often even in Sri Lanka, forget SENA. Ashwin helped us beat a strong (Sanga, peak Herath/Mathews etc) Sri Lanka in 2015, after a gap of 22 years.

What was the team in the 1990s and mid 2000s which had the bowlers ?
Did kumble have the luxury of bowlers like shami, ishant, kumar, bumrah ?
Yes, they failed. What were the pitches in SL in late 1990s.
The flattest - one 940+ score for a sample.

He has evolved. He was very poor in the 2011-14 period. But then won MOS in WI and Lanka. Bowled much better in England, SA and Australia this year, especially in a few tests like Centurion, Edgbaston and Adelaide.

Just by picking 2-3 more wickets he could have won the game for India.
I hope he will make amends at sydney which is likely to be most spin-friendly.

 

[Swashbuckler]

How many test matches has Ashwin for for his team in SENA?

Yasir Shah has won 2 tests in England single handedly

Herath won it for his team in South Africa single handedly.

As a match winner in SENA Ashwin is nowhere near Shah or Herath. A fact.

At home though Ashwin is amazing but behind Jadeja.

Bro Ash was a tad unlucky that his efforts didn't help us win in Edgbaston and Centurion. But I can understand what you are saying. Yasir won a test in England (Oval wasn't a one man show in bowling department) and so did Herath in Durban. However I wouldn't say Ash is nowhere near, the bar isn't very high and when it comes to match winning ability a lot of factors matter, most importantly luck and support from others. As a fellow Sachin fan I hope you realize what I am saying.

Coming to home conditions I still believe Jadeja is a distant 2nd to Ashwin. Post sports hernia, Ashwin has declined but we can't forget his form in the 2013-16 period. He was a one man army for us, winning series after series and collecting MOS awards like candy. Jadeja can get to that level but now's not the time to write off the King.

 

[Reyansh2017]

Ashwin was playing injured in the Southampton test, that was team management's fault. He did very well in the 1st test and had we won he would have been remembered more fondly.

Who told you Ash doesn't give 100% for the team? Bowling 87 overs at ER 1.7 in 42 degrees Adelaide heat isn't 100% effort? Kumble was an Indian legend but he too messed up plenty of times overseas, if you lived through the 90s you would know what I am saying. It is rare for Asian spinners to be match winners in SENA.

Now come the injury excuse for garbage performances.

If he is injured why play and screw up the team royally?

 

[Swashbuckler]

Now come the injury excuse for garbage performances.

If he is injured why play and screw up the team royally?

Ask Kohli and Shastri.

 

[Reyansh2017]

Ask Kohli and Shastri.

Nobody knows his injury better than him and if he feels he can't do justice he should not have played.

If he is cleared to play means there is no excuse of injury for under performance

 

[jagatk]

Nobody knows his injury better than him and if he feels he can't do justice he should not have played.

If he is cleared to play means there is no excuse of injury for under performance

Yes because if the captain and the coach say hey this is a big game we want you to start for us, and you say no I am not 100% so I won't plau. Literally no one does that in sports or in real life, If you are even semi fit and can play without too much complications you play, Ashwin did it against Aussies in India, Tendulkar did it with his tennis elbow. You clearly seem to have some sort of an irrational hatred of Ashwin but try and set that bias aside and then review his match before giving judgement.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Nobody knows his injury better than him and if he feels he can't do justice he should not have played.

If he is cleared to play means there is no excuse of injury for under performance

This is 2018, team has a fitness trainer (Shankar Basu) travelling everywhere and fitness drills/tests are conducted before every single match. Team management takes the final call before finalizing the team sheet, no scope for players to play the role of expert. Things are more professional now, Kohli and Shastri took the judgment call before the test (winning XI) and it backfired. If anyone has to be blamed, blame them. Just like how they played Bhuvi in the Ireland and England T20s just before the all important test series, and it wasn't unknown to them that he was carrying a niggle that could be aggravated. You won't blame Bhuvi there, will you?

 

[Reyansh2017]

Yes because if the captain and the coach say hey this is a big game we want you to start for us, and you say no I am not 100% so I won't plau. Literally no one does that in sports or in real life, If you are even semi fit and can play without too much complications you play, Ashwin did it against Aussies in India, Tendulkar did it with his tennis elbow. You clearly seem to have some sort of an irrational hatred of Ashwin but try and set that bias aside and then review his match before giving judgement.

Wow irrational hatred? For a supposedly best spinner in the world if he has not given even a single standout performance in the countries that mattered in god knows how many yrs of playing what should the indian team fans feel? Sympathy? Rational hatred?

 

[Reyansh2017]

This is 2018, team has a fitness trainer (Shankar Basu) travelling everywhere and fitness drills/tests are conducted before every single match. Team management takes the final call before finalizing the team sheet, no scope for players to play the role of expert. Things are more professional now, Kohli and Shastri took the judgment call before the test (winning XI) and it backfired. If anyone has to be blamed, blame them. Just like how they played Bhuvi in the Ireland and England T20s just before the all important test series, and it wasn't unknown to them that he was carrying a niggle that could be aggravated. You won't blame Bhuvi there, will you?

So that means he is fit to play isn't it? Then from where this injury excuse comes from?

 

[Reyansh2017]

This is 2018, team has a fitness trainer (Shankar Basu) travelling everywhere and fitness drills/tests are conducted before every single match. Team management takes the final call before finalizing the team sheet, no scope for players to play the role of expert. Things are more professional now, Kohli and Shastri took the judgment call before the test (winning XI) and it backfired. If anyone has to be blamed, blame them. Just like how they played Bhuvi in the Ireland and England T20s just before the all important test series, and it wasn't unknown to them that he was carrying a niggle that could be aggravated. You won't blame Bhuvi there, will you?

Why will i blame Bhuvi? He didn't play and he did not under perform by playing injured in the test series

 

[Reyansh2017]

This is 2018, team has a fitness trainer (Shankar Basu) travelling everywhere and fitness drills/tests are conducted before every single match. Team management takes the final call before finalizing the team sheet, no scope for players to play the role of expert. Things are more professional now, Kohli and Shastri took the judgment call before the test (winning XI) and it backfired. If anyone has to be blamed, blame them. Just like how they played Bhuvi in the Ireland and England T20s just before the all important test series, and it wasn't unknown to them that he was carrying a niggle that could be aggravated. You won't blame Bhuvi there, will you?

So your explanation is that he is fit enough to play but not fit enough to lead his team to victory? How will the team know he was not fit if he performed good in the fitness tests before the match?

 

[Swashbuckler]

So that means he is fit to play isn't it? Then from where this injury excuse comes from?

No there are some injuries which are aggravated during the match. Ashwin injured himself in Trent Bridge but was unnecessarily played in Southampton because of the long gap. He didn't even practise in the gap but was forced to play in Southampton so as to keep the winning combination. Now if you followed the series you would know this including Kohli's admission, team management knew he wasn't 100% fit but still played him.

 

[wrongun]

Please try to understand.
Australia had 6 left hand batters against India only had 1 left hand batsmen, while rest 10 were Right hand batsmen. The Adelaide pitch was slow with not much turn. Lyon exploited the foot marks to trouble all the right hand Indian batsmen (that's why pitch looked minefield for Lyon). While those foot marks were not available to Ashwin against Left handed Australian batsmen (6 out of 11) who scored 60% of the Australian Runs.
Considering this fact Ashwin did well

Good insight here, i hadn't considered that enough.