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Ravichandran Ashwin: Fastest to reach 300 wickets in Tests [Update Post #64]

What is your basis of saying Ashwin's action was not clean?Was he ever called? Murali or Ajmal were called and tested.Murali's doosra was banned for a while.Ajmal was caught chucking and was banned.None of this happened.Except for a couple of months where Ashwin openly declared that he will now use his elbow like some others and started copying Narine's action,Ashwin's action is as classical as it gets and no one has ever questioned it except posters on PP.

Ashwin bowl's legspin as a variation and his performance speaks for itself.He is taking wickets by buckets. Ashwin isnt in ODI team as there are the likes of Kuldeep and Chahal who are being groomed as the next line of spinners for India.At 31 years Ashwin needs rest.You have no proof of Ashwin being a chucker.

Why should Swann's home performance in England be compared to Ashwin's in a England?

I have my eyes to see all those kinks they have in their action design to bowl those mystery balls. There are not many side on footage of these questionable bowlers available, sometime I wonder why, to protect the boards investments? See the clip below at 0:11-12 seconds, his arm is not straight before his hand passes the shoulder height, although even this footage is not frame by frame and at higher frame, but I can see what he is doing there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMxbq6ULdUc

There is almost a silent agreement between broadcasters and boards not to show side on footage of all bowlers, they fear scrutiny. I remember one series where Shoiab Akthar in 2006ish where side on footage was shown, at that point in his career, we all knew he is chucking to get the extra pace. He was not doing that eariler in his career, atleast I had no doubt that he was doing it in last 5/6 years every now and then to get extra wipe...

After the side on controversy, and chucking fiascos, broadcasters all over the world are rarely showing side on actions, now Camera tech is much more superior, fear is it will reveal more than they want to show... Ashwin never had a clean bowling action, even if you pause video at 0:11, how many bends are there in his action, as a bowler I know, my Arm is completely straight long before I cross the shoulder, 30-40 degrees earlier if not lot sooner, these last minute guys are very questionable...
 
Lillee got all his wickets in pacer friendly conditions.

In any case, wickets are wickets. Do you expect Ashwin to claim wickets in pacer friendly pitches ? Even if he did that, you will some some other ways to pooh pooh his achievements. One can pull down any legend of the game by selective usage of facts and figures, no matter how great his achievements are.
 
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Lillee got all his wickets in pacer friendly conditions.

In any case, wickets are wickets. Do you expect Ashwin to claim wickets in pacer friendly pitches ? Even if he did that, you will some some other ways to pooh pooh his achievements. One can pull down any legend of the game by selective usage of facts and figures, no matter how great his achievements are.

His achievements are not great. Jadeja has been doing just as well in India, Sri Lanka is a horrible team nowadays and neither of them have played a single test in the UAE against Pakistan (Misbah's Pakistan, that is). How exactly are they being challenged?

He's completely failed overseas whereas someone like Shah has been doing great things on the unhelpful pitches of the UAE and has also won us two tests in England.

I would definitely love for Pakistan to have a bowler like Ashwin but I certainly won't be claiming that he's an ATG or the best spinner in the world, at least as long as a Yasir Shah is around.
 
His achievements are not great. Jadeja has been doing just as well in India, Sri Lanka is a horrible team nowadays and neither of them have played a single test in the UAE against Pakistan (Misbah's Pakistan, that is). How exactly are they being challenged?

He's completely failed overseas whereas someone like Shah has been doing great things on the unhelpful pitches of the UAE and has also won us two tests in England.

I would definitely love for Pakistan to have a bowler like Ashwin but I certainly won't be claiming that he's an ATG or the best spinner in the world, at least as long as a Yasir Shah is around.

Ashwin has been picking wickets on flat pitches of India for long time. If Pakistan was playing same Nagpur pitch, Yasir Shah would have been returning with figures of 120-5 in an inning or something like that.

There have been 23 instances of 4 batsman scoring 100 in an inning and last match was one such instance. Still Ashwin got 8-130. Apart from SA series and Aus series he has played mostly on conditions as helpful as UAE and consistently performed well. It's easy to see SL team losing with innings and 239 runs and saying that they are rubbish. But thing is same team whitewashed Pakistan and Australia.

Ashwin will be successful anywhere in world with little bit of help as long even if pitch is flat. Same pitches where Yasir picked wickets would have been wicket riot for him too. He has already shown it on similar pitches.
 
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I have my eyes to see all those kinks they have in their action design to bowl those mystery balls. There are not many side on footage of these questionable bowlers available, sometime I wonder why, to protect the boards investments? See the clip below at 0:11-12 seconds, his arm is not straight before his hand passes the shoulder height, although even this footage is not frame by frame and at higher frame, but I can see what he is doing there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMxbq6ULdUc

There is almost a silent agreement between broadcasters and boards not to show side on footage of all bowlers, they fear scrutiny. I remember one series where Shoiab Akthar in 2006ish where side on footage was shown, at that point in his career, we all knew he is chucking to get the extra pace. He was not doing that eariler in his career, atleast I had no doubt that he was doing it in last 5/6 years every now and then to get extra wipe...

After the side on controversy, and chucking fiascos, broadcasters all over the world are rarely showing side on actions, now Camera tech is much more superior, fear is it will reveal more than they want to show... Ashwin never had a clean bowling action, even if you pause video at 0:11, how many bends are there in his action, as a bowler I know, my Arm is completely straight long before I cross the shoulder, 30-40 degrees earlier if not lot sooner, these last minute guys are very questionable...

He has one of cleanest action all spinners in world.
 
He has one of cleanest action all spinners in world.

I disagree, Lyon and Herat have clean actions, more inline with how finger spinners should bowl...In the Era of Doosras(aka chucking), unfortunately, Desis have forget how finger spinners are suppose to bowl, they have to be learn it again :(
 
I disagree, Lyon and Herat have clean actions, more inline with how finger spinners should bowl...In the Era of Doosras(aka chucking), unfortunately, Desis have forget how finger spinners are suppose to bowl, they have to be learn it again :(

One of the cleanest...

Yasir, Herath and Ashwin have as clean action as it can be. Ashwin is a genune offie, not a doosra bowler.
 
What you forget to note is that Anderson gets to play in pace friendly pitches everywhere except Asia. So thats just 59 out of the 508 wkts in Asia Which brings his % of Wkts in favorable conditions to 88.4% .

Link: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/8608.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

For Ashwin Non-Asian Wkts tally is 41 wkts out of the total 300. Which makes his fav conditions % to 86.3%
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/26421.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling


Fun fact do the same calculation for Dennis Lillee and see what you get :)

What about the fact that Anderson averages 30.00 in Asia and was pivotal to England's series win in India in 2012. In contrast, Ashwin averages 56.58 outside Asia (exc WI) and 42.73 (inc. WI). Those are some dreadful figures any way you look at them.
 
What about the fact that Anderson averages 30.00 in Asia and was pivotal to England's series win in India in 2012. In contrast, Ashwin averages 56.58 outside Asia (exc WI) and 42.73 (inc. WI). Those are some dreadful figures any way you look at them.

Anderson is world class bowler unlike Ashwin.

however,Ashwin can easily become World Class if he delivers 2 or 3 impactful performance outside sub continent(against Aus,Nz,Sa &Eng).

2018-2019 overseas series will decide his legacy.
 
What about the fact that Anderson averages 30.00 in Asia and was pivotal to England's series win in India in 2012. In contrast, Ashwin averages 56.58 outside Asia (exc WI) and 42.73 (inc. WI). Those are some dreadful figures any way you look at them.

You are back. I feared you went inactive lol

I don't claim Ashwin to be a all conditions bowler. However the same criteria doesn't stop people from singing praises of Lillee who has a even pathetic record in unfavorable conditions.

What is your overall assessment of Ashwin? I suspect something on the lines of Ghar kind murgi batata?
 
You are back. I feared you went inactive lol

I don't claim Ashwin to be a all conditions bowler. However the same criteria doesn't stop people from singing praises of Lillee who has a even pathetic record in unfavorable conditions.

What is your overall assessment of Ashwin? I suspect something on the lines of Ghar kind murgi batata?

Yeah, was giving CAT so had to lay off the forums for a bit, glad to see you noticed.

I actually rated Ashwin as a Test all rounder more than a specialist spinner, but his batting performances have gone down a few notches as well in the past year or so. As a bowler he is woeful outside of his comfort zone, and I mean woeful... not just inefficient.. WOEFUL.. in both Tests and ODIs.. He has obviously mastered the art of running through teams when there is spin on offer on Indian tracks but that just doesn't compensate for his atrociously high average of 50+ outside Asia at this point. Also, the same Ashwin is pretty capable of having figures of 1-150 when faced with a flat Indian deck as well.. see the Rajkot and Chennai Tests against England.

This can obviously change though.. but I would gladly take Kuldeep over him on overseas tours. If he was as competent a lower order batsman as he was in the initial years of his career then he would have at least had a shout. But at this point, no.
 
What you forget to note is that Anderson gets to play in pace friendly pitches everywhere except Asia. So thats just 59 out of the 508 wkts in Asia Which brings his % of Wkts in favorable conditions to 88.4% .

Link: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/8608.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

For Ashwin Non-Asian Wkts tally is 41 wkts out of the total 300. Which makes his fav conditions % to 86.3%
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/26421.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling


Fun fact do the same calculation for Dennis Lillee and see what you get :)

He bowls 80% of his overs at home. Why is that? A great bowler should get to bowl everywhere and pick up wickets in all test conditions. Great record but not a great
 
Yeah, was giving CAT so had to lay off the forums for a bit, glad to see you noticed.

I actually rated Ashwin as a Test all rounder more than a specialist spinner, but his batting performances have gone down a few notches as well in the past year or so. As a bowler he is woeful outside of his comfort zone, and I mean woeful... not just inefficient.. WOEFUL.. in both Tests and ODIs.. He has obviously mastered the art of running through teams when there is spin on offer on Indian tracks but that just doesn't compensate for his atrociously high average of 50+ outside Asia at this point. Also, the same Ashwin is pretty capable of having figures of 1-150 when faced with a flat Indian deck as well.. see the Rajkot and Chennai Tests against England.

This can obviously change though.. but I would gladly take Kuldeep over him on overseas tours. If he was as competent a lower order batsman as he was in the initial years of his career then he would have at least had a shout. But at this point, no.

All that you say applies to a lot of past greats. Heck Warne and Murali struggled in India. Don't see people rating them different because of that.


Considering that he has to bowl on flat tracks quite a bit that Avg and S/r is even more impressive.

No thoughts on Lillee?
 
An Indian bowler averaging 25ish in itself is a big achievement regardless of where he gets those wickets. He owned Sangakkara 4 times in 2 tests. His ability with Kookaburra ball is suspect as the less pronounced seam of that ball doesn't suit his variation. But i think he will find a way to get the best out of Kookaburra.
 
An Indian bowler averaging 25ish in itself is a big achievement regardless of where he gets those wickets. He owned Sangakkara 4 times in 2 tests. His ability with Kookaburra ball is suspect as the less pronounced seam of that ball doesn't suit his variation. But i think he will find a way to get the best out of Kookaburra.

And for people who complain about Sangakkara being on his last legs should just see how he continued to plunder runs all over the world even after his retirement.
 
And for people who complain about Sangakkara being on his last legs should just see how he continued to plunder runs all over the world even after his retirement.

That is just an excuse. He was always sure footed against spin bowling right till the end. But no shame in admitting Ash got the better of him. How about the delivery that nailed Amla which was instantly labelled as the ball of the century in one dayers by Gilly. Most of his wickets were magical compared to Jaddu who got most of his wickets with accuracy more than anything else. He is probably one of the best bowler with self awareness. Sometimes it contributes to his own undoing as he thinks too much. When you have limited variations like Lyon, you would just keep doing the same thing over and over and perfect it. Ash has way too many variations at his disposal.
 
All that you say applies to a lot of past greats. Heck Warne and Murali struggled in India. Don't see people rating them different because of that.


Considering that he has to bowl on flat tracks quite a bit that Avg and S/r is even more impressive.

No thoughts on Lillee?

Warne and Murali proved themselves in all conditions though. Sure they had a team or two against whom they comparatively struggled but overall they have respectable figures on all sorts of surfaces and conditions, can't say the same for Ashwin who has been dreadful on any surface other than the ones assisting spin from the very first day. I would say that Kumble's performances in India are much more impressive since more often than not he had to bowl the 1st innings on absolute pancakes and wait for the pitch to break up on the 4th and 5th days to feast on a proper Indian turner. Harbhajan's statement in that regard was absolutely spot on.

I wouldn't comment on Lillee because I never saw him bowl. On the surface, his figures outside of Aus/Eng do look dreadful, maybe someone who was watching at that time can offer an explanation.
 
New Delhi: Sri Lankan spin legend Muttiah Muralitharan feels India's Ravichandran Ashwin is presently the best spinner in the world and his achievements with the ball are a testimony to his greatness.

Ashwin on Monday became the fastest bowler to reach the milestone of 300 Test wickets in his 54th match, breaking Dennis Lillee's record during India's convincing win over Sri Lanka in the second Test.


And Muralitharan congratulated the Indian off-spinner on his achievement.

"I want to congratulate him (Ashwin). It's a big achievement as getting 300 Test wickets is not an easy job. Definitely, he is the best spinner in the world at the moment," Muralitharan said.

"He is not in the One-Day team but hopefully he will return and do wonders in the shorter formats also," said the spin legend, who holds the world record of capturing 800 wickets in 133 Test matches.

Australian fast bowling legend Lillee had reached the milestone in 56 Test matches way back in 1981 and it took 36 years for another bowler to eclipse the record. Ashwin is also ahead of some of the illustrious names, who had completed the milestone in quick time.

Among them are Muralitharan (58 Tests), Richard Hadlee, Malcolm Marshall and Dale Steyn (61 Tests each).

Having eclipsed Lille's feat, the real challenge now for Ashwin is to break Muralitharan's record of being the fastest to 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 Test wickets.

"He (Ashwin) is hardly 31, 32 years old and can play for another 4-5 years at least. But it will also depend on how he performs and remains injury free. Only time will tell as it will be very hard for him after 35," said Muralitharan. Besides, Ashwin also has 150 ODI wickets from 111 matches. Not just quality of two teams but overkill of contests have taken the sheen out of India-Sri Lanka series, a fact which was recently endorsed by India captain Virat Kohli.

Asked Muralitharan about the issue, he gave a tongue-in-cheek reply.

"I can't say there is too much of (India-Sri Lanka) cricket but may be Virat (Kohli) is getting bored of winning every time," he said.

While Muralitharan complemented the current Indian team under Kohli for its level of consistency, he expressed serious concern about the sorry state of Sri Lankan cricket.

"India is a very good side and I rate them very high. You can't take credit away from India by saying that Sri Lanka is a weak team. They are doing really well in every format," he said.

"Alarm bells (in Sri Lankan cricket) have rang two three years ago. For me it's a matter of great concern. You lose sometime but this (Sri Lankan) team is losing a lot and that is a major worry," a concerned Muralitharan said.

"Young cricketers are not coming through. They are not performing. That's the biggest concern we have," concluded the spin great.


http://www.news18.com/cricketnext/n...pinner-in-the-world-muralitharan-1589301.html
 
Warne and Murali proved themselves in all conditions though. Sure they had a team or two against whom they comparatively struggled but overall they have respectable figures on all sorts of surfaces and conditions, can't say the same for Ashwin who has been dreadful on any surface other than the ones assisting spin from the very first day.

Dude ... He has played 2 Tests in Eng and 1 in SAF and ZERO in NZ ... you can say that he has failed in Aus just like many others did but laughable to say that he struggles everywhere based on a sample set of 9 Test matches. Talk about being ridiculous!

BTW Shane Warne had similar figures in India after 6 Tests. Which is worse a Spinner struggling in India or Ashwin struggling in Aus ?

I would say that Kumble's performances in India are much more impressive since more often than not he had to bowl the 1st innings on absolute pancakes and wait for the pitch to break up on the 4th and 5th days to feast on a proper Indian turner. Harbhajan's statement in that regard was absolutely spot on.

Ash trumps kumble in the rest by a big margin. And dont even try to pretend that pitches were different back then.

I wouldn't comment on Lillee because I never saw him bowl. On the surface, his figures outside of Aus/Eng do look dreadful, maybe someone who was watching at that time can offer an explanation.

There is nothing to look ... those figures tell a sorry tale and thats why I rate Kapil Dev as a far better bowler than DKL. But these things never stopped anyone from rating Lillee very highly and even nominating him as one of the players of the century ( lol ). There is a lesson to be learnt there for Desi's like you who like to come of as sophisticated by ridiculing performances of our players at home and near to home.
 
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Dude ... He has played 2 Tests in Eng and 1 in SAF and ZERO in NZ ... you can say that he has failed in Aus just like many others did but laughable to say that he struggles everywhere based on a sample set of 9 Test matches. Talk about being ridiculous!

BTW Shane Warne had similar figures in India after 6 Tests. Which is worse a Spinner struggling in India or Ashwin struggling in Aus ?



Ash trumps kumble in the rest by a big margin. And dont even try to pretend that pitches were different back then.



There is nothing to look ... those figures tell a sorry tale and thats why I rate Kapil Dev as a far better bowler than DKL. But these things never stopped anyone from rating Lillee very highly and even nominating him as one of the players of the century ( lol ). There is a lesson to be learnt there for Desi's like you who like to come of as sophisticated by ridiculing performances of our players at home and near to home.
You don;t have to pretend, they were different back then. The pitches in the 90's were mostly roads on day 1 & 2 whilst in the 2k's they were even better roads. If Kumble played on dicy turners, like we;ve seen the last few years, coupled with DRS he would've easily avg 4~5 less at home than he actually did.

You;re underestimating Kumble, greatly, & overselling Ashwin, Jadeja is still the better bowler in the team atm!
 
You don;t have to pretend, they were different back then. The pitches in the 90's were mostly roads on day 1 & 2 whilst in the 2k's they were even better roads. If Kumble played on dicy turners, like we;ve seen the last few years, coupled with DRS he would've easily avg 4~5 less at home than he actually did.

You;re underestimating Kumble, greatly, & overselling Ashwin, Jadeja is still the better bowler in the team atm!

Can you list all the matches on dicey turners that Ashwin played ?
 
Can you list all the matches on dicey turners that Ashwin played ?
Do I need to, really? IIRC in the 2012/13 home season, at least 7 if not 8 tests starting with the NZ series. Then WI, should really count as minnows but I'll throw them in as well. SA 2 tests, NZ as well last year, Mumbai vs Eng was also a turner though it was good for stroke making as well. Lastly 2 or 3 vs Bangla/Aus depending on your definition of dicey.

All in all, at least 12~14 & as much as 18 tests, again depending on what you'd call dicey! You can bring the stats for Kumble, right?
 
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90s Indian pitches were roads?

lol.

I guess Venkatapathy Raju is a legend.

In India,

Kumble averages 21 in 90s.
Averages 27 in 2000s.
Averages 26 in 2000s excluding his final decline years.
 
Do I need to, really? IIRC in the 2012/13 home season, at least 7 if not 8 tests starting with the NZ series. Then WI, should really count as minnows but I'll throw them in as well. SA 2 tests, NZ as well last year, Mumbai vs Eng was also a turner though it was good for stroke making as well. Lastly 2 or 3 vs Bangla/Aus depending on your definition of dicey.

All in all, at least 12~14 & as much as 18 tests, again depending on what you'd call dicey! You can bring the stats for Kumble, right?

In the NZ series last year India made decent totals and in the Kolkatta Test pacers took most wkts IIRC. The Bangladesh Test match actually went into half way on Day5. WI made 400+ in one of the Tests.In the Mumbai Test last year Eng made 400 in 1st inngs and India made 633. These kinda scores cannot happen on rank Turners.

The only Tests which can be classified as Rank turners are the 2 Tests vs SAF and 2 Tests vs Aus.
 
What people don't realize is that when you give a turner to Ash/Jaddu outside Asia, they would do very well.

Here's the limited data we have:

Jaddu in Durban turner: 5fer (we could have done way better with 2 spinners)
Ashwin in Oval (it wasn't even turning cos we got bundled out fast): 3fer in first innings
Ashwin in Sydney 2014 (when pitch turned in 3rd innings): 4fer (picked 4 out of 5 wickets...would have ended up with a 7fer or 8fer had India scored more runs and Australia didn't have to declare.....Only Smith destroyed him in that pitch...rest were struggling against him)

The only place our spinners failed was when Jaddu didn't do anything on Lord's 2014 day 5 when the pitch turned. I am sure that's an aberration and today he will do better on that same pitch.

The only issue here is the Aussie pitches that Ash played and one Wanderer test where honestly Ash was pedestrian.

Even in the Aussie pitches, Ash averaged same as Lyon in the games they played together in 2014. Shall we compare what their team pacers averaged and their economy rate? It won't even be funny. lol.

On current form, I would rate Jaddu and Lyon to be better than Ash. But I liked what I saw of Ash in the last 2 tests. Upping the pace on unresponsive pitches, being more accurate and using dip to fool the batsmen. If he combines that with WI series flight (where he was simply at his best) and uses everything according to pitch and match situation, things can be very interesting.

Hard to predict how he will fare in SA (on total green seamers or pitches designed to ensure it doesn't turn an inch) but it will be interesting to watch nonetheless.
 
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90s Indian pitches were roads?

lol.

I guess Venkatapathy Raju is a legend.

In India,

Kumble averages 21 in 90s.
Averages 27 in 2000s.
Averages 26 in 2000s excluding his final decline years.
You need to read, carefully, typical Indian pitches are roads on day 1 & 2, virtually all of them including the regular Mumbai & Nagpur tracks. In the mid to late 2k's the Indian tracks were even better roads than the ones we'd seen in 90's also why don;t you tell us the day 1 & 2 batting stats from 90/2k if you;re so sure of your claim?
In the NZ series last year India made decent totals and in the Kolkatta Test pacers took most wkts IIRC. The Bangladesh Test match actually went into half way on Day5. WI made 400+ in one of the Tests.In the Mumbai Test last year Eng made 400 in 1st inngs and India made 633. These kinda scores cannot happen on rank Turners.

The only Tests which can be classified as Rank turners are the 2 Tests vs SAF and 2 Tests vs Aus.
Those weren;t the only ones, the first two NZ tests were also rank turners, though not bad wickets! The same goes for 2012/13 season unless we;re pretending the Mumbai/Kolkata pitches against England didn;t turn square & at least a couple of tracks in the Aus series that followed?
 
You need to read, carefully, typical Indian pitches are roads on day 1 & 2, virtually all of them including the regular Mumbai & Nagpur tracks. In the mid to late 2k's the Indian tracks were even better roads than the ones we'd seen in 90's also why don;t you tell us the day 1 & 2 batting stats from 90/2k if you;re so sure of your claim?Those weren;t the only ones, the first two NZ tests were also rank turners, though not bad wickets! The same goes for 2012/13 season unless we;re pretending the Mumbai/Kolkata pitches against England didn;t turn square & at least a couple of tracks in the Aus series that followed?

You need to get the definition of Rank turners right ... Tests on Rank turners dont last long ... max 3 to 3.5 days and low scores for both teams. Most of the tests that you mention don't qualify for that tag.
 
You need to read, carefully, typical Indian pitches are roads on day 1 & 2, virtually all of them including the regular Mumbai & Nagpur tracks. In the mid to late 2k's the Indian tracks were even better roads than the ones we'd seen in 90's also why don;t you tell us the day 1 & 2 batting stats from 90/2k if you;re so sure of your claim?

Ok sure.

Kumble averages 22 in 90s in 1st and 2nd innings (shows you how the pitches were).

Overall career, averages 27 in 1st and 2nd innings (Ashwin averages 26).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

In 3rd and 4th innings:

Kumble averages 20 in 90s.

Ashwin averages 18.

Ashwin (overall) vs Kumble of 90s (not overall where his stats got hit)

Kumble took 3.07 wickets per game (1st and 2nd innings) and 3.07 wickets per game (3rd and 4th innings) playing with Venkatapathy Raju and Rajesh Chauhan.

Ashwin took 2.97 wickets per game (1st and 2nd innings) and 3.48 wickets per game (3rd and 4th innings) inspite of playing Ohja and Jadeja (I am excluding Bhajji cos he was past his prime).
 
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You need to get the definition of Rank turners right ... Tests on Rank turners dont last long ... max 3 to 3.5 days and low scores for both teams. Most of the tests that you mention don't qualify for that tag.
Rank turners don;t mean bad wickets, Mumbai has always been a rank turner. Kolkata back in the day, when it was dry, was also a rank turner. So no you need to know what we;re discussing here.

OR a team gets a big score in the first innings & then wins by an innings, ever seen that happen, on a rank turner?
Ok sure.

Kumble averages 22 in 90s in 1st and 2nd innings (shows you how the pitches were).

Overall career, averages 27 in 1st and 2nd innings (Ashwin averages 26).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

In 3rd and 4th innings:

Kumble averages 20 in 90s.

Ashwin averages 18.

Ashwin (overall) vs Kumble of 90s (not overall where his stats got hit)

Kumble took 3.07 wickets per game (1st and 2nd innings) and 3.07 wickets per game (3rd and 4th innings) playing with Venkatapathy Raju and Rajesh Chauhan.

Ashwin took 2.97 wickets per game (1st and 2nd innings) and 3.48 wickets per game (3rd and 4th innings) inspite of playing Ohja and Jadeja (I am excluding Bhajji cos he was past his prime).
The avg in isolation doesn;t tell you anything, check the number of wickets on day 1 or 2, how much India scored & the opposition as well.

In the last one year Jadeja has easily been the better spinner, if you've seen any number of games that should be pretty visible to you. Even Ashwin admits that Jadeja squeezes the runs dry so he;s able to get his wickets, relatively easily. Jadeja has also outperformed him with the bat in the last 10~15 tests, although most of them were played at home.
 
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The avg in isolation doesn;t tell you anything, check the number of wickets on day 1 or 2, how much India scored & the opposition as well. Rank turners don;t mean bad wickets, Mumbai has always been a rank turner. Kolkata back in the day, when it was dry, was also a rank turner. So no you need to know what we;re discussing here.

OR a team gets a big score in the first innings & then wins by an innings, ever seen that happen, on a rank turner?The avg in isolation doesn;t tell you anything, check the number of wickets on day 1 or 2, how much India scored & the opposition as well.

In the last one year Jadeja has easily been the better spinner, if you've seen any number of games that should be pretty visible to you. Even Ashwin admits that Jadeja squeezes the runs dry so he;s able to get his wickets, relatively easily. Jadeja has also outperformed him with the bat in the last 10~15 tests, although most of them were played at home.

You asked for numbers. I gave you the numbers.

There is little difference between Kumble's numbers in the 2 sets.

You can't keep digging in till you get the answer you want mate.

Also here's a simple question:

If Kumble was so good that he averaged the same on roads (1st and 2nd innings) as he did on raging turners (3rd and 4th innings) in 90s, then why didn't he have a better overseas record? Why did he struggle so much initially overseas?

Fact of the matter is that 90s Indian pitches were good turners (not calling them all rank turners). 2000s it changed and became harder.

Also nothing explains why Ashwin ends up with a higher percentage of wickets inspite of playing with quality spinners.

In the last one year Jadeja has easily been the better spinner, if you've seen any number of games that should be pretty visible to you. Even Ashwin admits that Jadeja squeezes the runs dry so he;s able to get his wickets, relatively easily. Jadeja has also outperformed him with the bat in the last 10~15 tests, although most of them were played at home

Ok sure.

My question is so what.

Yes, Jaddu has been better (more consistent) but why bring it up every single instance in the last couple of weeks. This isn't about Ash vs Jaddu.

Inspite of being the inferior bowler in the last season (overall), Ashwin still ended up picking more wickets in the last season inspite of having to share with Jaddu who has been the better bowler. And there's also a small matter of Ash having an injury that was so bad he had to skip IPL. No one even knows if he is back to his 100% old self.

Also there's a factor called impact.

1. Ashwin was the guy who destroyed NZ last year.

2. He was the guy who killed Eng when they toured and sealed the series in Mumbai (media focus was on Ash who looked head and shoulders above the rest uptil that point - check his vs Jaddu numbers then - massive number of wickets at a way better average). Later on, first innings in Chennai where he was not upto the mark and some real ill-luck in 2nd innings spoiled his figures. Even in Rajkot (where he was poor), the final day, Ash's came back with a changed action to bowl tons of economical overs which eventually played a crucial role in us securing the draw.

3. The only series where Jaddu was head and shoulders above Ash was Australia series.
 
You asked for numbers. I gave you the numbers.

There is little difference between Kumble's numbers in the 2 sets.

You can't keep digging in till you get the answer you want mate.

Also here's a simple question:

If Kumble was so good that he averaged the same on roads (1st and 2nd innings) as he did on raging turners (3rd and 4th innings) in 90s, then why didn't he have a better overseas record? Why did he struggle so much initially overseas?

Fact of the matter is that 90s Indian pitches were good turners (not calling them all rank turners). 2000s it changed and became harder.

Also nothing explains why Ashwin ends up with a higher percentage of wickets inspite of playing with quality spinners.



Ok sure.

My question is so what.

Yes, Jaddu has been better (more consistent) but why bring it up every single instance in the last couple of weeks. This isn't about Ash vs Jaddu.

Inspite of being the inferior bowler in the last season (overall), Ashwin still ended up picking more wickets in the last season inspite of having to share with Jaddu who has been the better bowler. And there's also a small matter of Ash having an injury that was so bad he had to skip IPL. No one even knows if he is back to his 100% old self.

Also there's a factor called impact.

1. Ashwin was the guy who destroyed NZ last year.

2. He was the guy who killed Eng when they toured and sealed the series in Mumbai (media focus was on Ash who looked head and shoulders above the rest uptil that point - check his vs Jaddu numbers then - massive number of wickets at a way better average). Later on, first innings in Chennai where he was not upto the mark and some real ill-luck in 2nd innings spoiled his figures. Even in Rajkot (where he was poor), the final day, Ash's came back with a changed action to bowl tons of economical overs which eventually played a crucial role in us securing the draw.

3. The only series where Jaddu was head and shoulders above Ash was Australia series.
First of all, 90's was an unusually bad decade for batters in general, the worst since WW2 IIRC so that explains part of the reason why Kumble was so good besides his accuracy, which I;d have to say was better than even Jadeja.

I;m not looking for an answer, IMO Kumble over the span of his (full) career was a better bowler than what Ashwin is today, feel free to disagree.

There were very few raging turners in the 90's definitely %wise, you know the gig ~ why don;t you list them?

Because he was mostly 1D away from home, add to that the lack of DRS & India being heavily dependent on SRT, no support bowlers to rely on consistently, better opposition & pace bowlers, so on so forth. Should I continue, just check the record of Ashwin pre/post DRS & you;ll get a hint why he;s that much better now, certainly his numbers.

How many of them are tailenders?

NZ is Kane & 10 other men, hardly a barometer to gauge him against.

No that was Kohli, he was the difference between Ind winning that series or England.

He was also a better/consistent bowler during the England series, his numbers show as much.
 
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Dude ... He has played 2 Tests in Eng and 1 in SAF and ZERO in NZ ... you can say that he has failed in Aus just like many others did but laughable to say that he struggles everywhere based on a sample set of 9 Test matches. Talk about being ridiculous!

Then he just can't be classified as a great bowler either.

A rookie like Keshav Maharaj has outperformed Ashwin in Eng, Aus and NZ (where Ashwin wasn't even considered to get a bowl) and SA, comprehensively.

He has negligible performances outside of his comfort zone. 300 wickets @ 25 is normally a huge accomplishment if you're a consistent performer throughout the board, something Ashwin isn't.



BTW Shane Warne had similar figures in India after 6 Tests. Which is worse a Spinner struggling in India or Ashwin struggling in Aus ?

Warne averages 26.81 overall in Asia. Hardly a failure overall in Asian conditions on the whole.


Ash trumps kumble in the rest by a big margin. And dont even try to pretend that pitches were different back then.

Kumble was twice the bowler Ashwin is in India.

In the period Kumble played, the weighed average of runs/wicket is 35.80.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;template=results;type=aggregate;view=series

For Ashwin the same figure is 32.46, and since the infamous SA series it is 31.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;template=results;type=aggregate;view=series

That's a significant difference, not to mention that hardly any Test matches during Kumble's time started with a pitch being an absolute rank turner from Day 1 like Pune 2017 or Nagpur 2015.

There is nothing to look ... those figures tell a sorry tale and thats why I rate Kapil Dev as a far better bowler than DKL. But these things never stopped anyone from rating Lillee very highly and even nominating him as one of the players of the century ( lol ). There is a lesson to be learnt there for Desi's like you who like to come of as sophisticated by ridiculing performances of our players at home and near to home.

I'm not defending Lillee in the least. Of course his figures are under scrutiny just like everyone else's. I'm just not qualified enough to make a concrete judgement like I'm on players like Kumble and Ashwin whose careers I've followed and know the difference in the conditions they encountered at home. But if it makes you feel better.. then of course Lillee's overseas stats (outside Eng), don't align with his reputation as one of the best ever, indeed. Still doesn't excuse Ashwin of his overseas records though, not to mention he looks pretty pedestrian on the flatter Indian wickets as well.
 
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First of all, 90's was an unusually bad decade for batters in general, the worst since WW2 IIRC so that explains part of the reason why Kumble was so good besides his accuracy, which I;d have to say was better than even Jadeja.

I;m not looking for an answer, IMO Kumble over the span of his (full) career was a better bowler than what Ashwin is today, feel free to disagree.

There were very few raging turners in the 90's definitely %wise, you know the gig ~ why don;t you list them?

Because he was mostly 1D away from home, add to that the lack of DRS & India being heavily dependent on SRT, no support bowlers to rely on consistently, better opposition & pace bowlers, so on so forth. Should I continue, just check the record of Ashwin pre/post DRS & you;ll get a hint why he;s that much better now, certainly his numbers.

How many of them are tailenders?

NZ is Kane & 10 other men, hardly a barometer to gauge him against.

No that was Kohli, he was the difference between Ind winning that series or England.

He was also a better/consistent bowler during the England series, his numbers show as much.

1. First of all, Kumble is obviously the better bowler cos he has achieved so much more. When Ashwin has something comparable to what Kumble did in 2003/04 Aus series, we can then call Ashwin better. Personally I feel Ashwin has more skills than Kumble. Time will tell how things go by.

2. As long as the pitches have good turn, good spinners will make it work. Only the most mediocre spinners need raging turners to pick wickets.

3. I was talking about performance of bowlers vs England. Kohli was the deserved MOS but without wickets, those wins wouldn't have been possible.

4. DRS is no biggie. Ash was rolling out teams even before DRS. I have seen many decisions getting overturned by DRS too.

5. Let's not even talk about tailenders. If Ashwin and Jaddu had got a crack at 90s tailenders, they would have run riots. You have seen how Ash runs through the tail.

Venkatapathy Raju picked up wickets against ATG Aussie team in 98 on a turner. He id well in India in 90s against all those good players of spin. You believe he is a better bowler than Ash/Jaddu? No right.

In 90s, a few teams had a few good players of spin (Eng were woeful against spin, NZ too, SL somehow played badly in India, WI were in decline, Aus were really good but never made it work in India, Pak would have been tough but played very less).....if you unleash Ash and Jaddu on them and get them to feast on useless tail too....imagine what havoc they would have caused on 90 pitches. :P
 
Venkatapathy Raju stats:

Average at home in 90s:

22.68

Average in 1st and 2nd innings:

20.82

Average in 3rd and 4th innings:

25.31

Average outside India

Australia: 48
England: 76
New Zealand :30
South Africa: 60
Sri Lanka: 60

And I guess he would have played as a second spinner in these tests which means the team would have considered those pitches to be RELATIVELY spin friendly to play 2 spinners.

No disrespect to Raju who has been a very good spinner in India but these stats make me go :)))

I wonder how the Indian pitches must have been. lol.
 
Venkatapathy Raju stats:

Average at home in 90s:

22.68

Average in 1st and 2nd innings:

20.82

Average in 3rd and 4th innings:

25.31

Average outside India

Australia: 48
England: 76
New Zealand :30
South Africa: 60
Sri Lanka: 60

And I guess he would have played as a second spinner in these tests which means the team would have considered those pitches to be RELATIVELY spin friendly to play 2 spinners.

No disrespect to Raju who has been a very good spinner in India but these stats make me go :)))

I wonder how the Indian pitches must have been. lol.
Why, did you ever consider that a certain Kumble had something to do with that?

www.stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin..._player=kumble;template=results;type=allround

Not unlike Jadeja helping Ashwin out, in India :21:

www.stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin..._player=jadeja;template=results;type=allround
 
Why, did you ever consider that a certain Kumble had something to do with that?

www.stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin..._player=kumble;template=results;type=allround

Not unlike Jadeja helping Ashwin out, in India :21:

www.stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin..._player=jadeja;template=results;type=allround

Hehe....

I did consider that but I was left wondering why did Kumble stop helping him out away from home.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=1973;template=results;type=bowling

Average of 60 playing with Kumble away from home.

What a bad boy this Kumble is. :P
 
Warne and Murali proved themselves in all conditions though. Sure they had a team or two against whom they comparatively struggled but overall they have respectable figures on all sorts of surfaces and conditions, can't say the same for Ashwin who has been dreadful on any surface other than the ones assisting spin from the very first day. I would say that Kumble's performances in India are much more impressive since more often than not he had to bowl the 1st innings on absolute pancakes and wait for the pitch to break up on the 4th and 5th days to feast on a proper Indian turner. Harbhajan's statement in that regard was absolutely spot on.

I wouldn't comment on Lillee because I never saw him bowl. On the surface, his figures outside of Aus/Eng do look dreadful, maybe someone who was watching at that time can offer an explanation.

Your knowledge about how Kumble got wickets in the 90s is poor. Under Azharuddin-Wadekar era India had these designer pitches specificially that suited Kumble. It would be unplayable from day one. I did witness all the tests in the 90s. I am watching now. Those pitches were absolute minefields. These are not even close to minefields. Given the fact they see Ashwin a lot in the IPL on Indian grounds they should have no problem handling him. But still they have problem. Ashwin is the best spinner i have seen with SG ball. Period. Can you tell what the record of Murali and Warne in India?
 
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Your knowledge about how Kumble got wickets in the 90s is poor. Under Azharuddin-Wadekar era India had these designer pitches specificially that suited Kumble. It would be unplayable from day one. I did witness all the tests in the 90s. I am watching now. Those pitches were absolute minefields. These are not even close to minefields. Given the fact they see Ashwin a lot in the IPL on Indian grounds they should have no problem handling him. But still they have problem. Ashwin is the best spinner i have seen with SG ball. Period. Can you tell what the record of Murali and Warne in India?

I've posted the numbers. Average runs/wicket in all of India's Test series at home in the 90s is still 32.39 which is still a good 1.5 odd points higher than what India is dishing out since the SA 2015 series. Say whatever, but when opening batsmen like Dean Elgar start getting 4 fors for nothing on a surface, you know something is wrong.

From 2000 to Kumble's retirement, the figure jumps up to an atrocious 37.06 runs/ wicket, a period in which Kumble still averaged in the mid 20s which is a testament to his skill. Ashwin on the other hand has had figures of 1/151, 1/114, 2/167, 2/145 and 3/183 on the occasional relatively flat Indian tracks that have been served, mind you Jadeja's performance on these same tracks has been miles better.
 
I've posted the numbers. Average runs/wicket in all of India's Test series at home in the 90s is still 32.39 which is still a good 1.5 odd points higher than what India is dishing out since the SA 2015 series. Say whatever, but when opening batsmen like Dean Elgar start getting 4 fors for nothing on a surface, you know something is wrong.

From 2000 to Kumble's retirement, the figure jumps up to an atrocious 37.06 runs/ wicket, a period in which Kumble still averaged in the mid 20s which is a testament to his skill. Ashwin on the other hand has had figures of 1/151, 1/114, 2/167, 2/145 and 3/183 on the occasional relatively flat Indian tracks that have been served, mind you Jadeja's performance on these same tracks has been miles better.
Not a good analogy, you are taking whole 90 then you have to take from 2011 onwards. You are cherry picking the stats.
 
Not a good analogy, you are taking whole 90 then you have to take from 2011 onwards. You are cherry picking the stats.

Ashwin made his Debut in 2011.Harbhajan statement about modern indian pitches was clearly exaggerated but he does have some valid points.I didn't watch lots of cricket in 90s,so not going to comment about it but 2000s was period where mostly all pitches in SC were absolute flat.
 
Can you tell what the record of Murali and Warne in India?

Difference between (warne/murali) & Ashwin is that unlike warne & murali,Ashwin has failed in more than 1 country.Murali although failed in Australia and india but performed like ATG in other countries.That's why he averages 26 in AUS,NZ,ENG &SA as compared to R ashwin who averages 56.
 
Not surprisingly people here are bringing Warne/murali stats in india to justify mediocre performance on non turning pitches.Instead of criticising warne/murali,credit should be given to india batting line up who was undoubtedly greatest batting side Against Spin.

And it's not like Ashwin has dominated quality players of spin.Apart from 2015 year where he was at its best,I didn't see likes of KP,Cook,Clarke,Root,Smith having trouble against Ashwin.One thing they had in common was that they struggled against Jadeja more than they did against Ashwin.
 
Ashwin made his Debut in 2011.Harbhajan statement about modern indian pitches was clearly exaggerated but he does have some valid points.I didn't watch lots of cricket in 90s,so not going to comment about it but 2000s was period where mostly all pitches in SC were absolute flat.

90s pitch were really bad, not all but most . See South Africa series of 96 1st and 3rd match or indo Pak 3 test matches in 98 or England series 94 or srilanka series. Even Sachin last series as a captain 1st test match was played on unprepared pitch.
Azhar was famous for this. History remembers Azhar captaincy for only doctored pitches. You have to read cricket related articles to check whether I am right or not. I am not saying to believe me just check yourself.
 
And for people who complain about Sangakkara being on his last legs should just see how he continued to plunder runs all over the world even after his retirement.

Yes,Ashwin completely dominated Sangakkara in that series and Sangakkara retirement had nothing to do with this.He bowled brilliantly not just in that series but throughout the whole year 2015.He dominated all quality batsmen Whether ABD,Amla or Sanga across all formats.He was also best spinner in 2015WC where jadeja was hammered.His peak started during 2014 WT20 and ended in jan 2016.
 
Lyon is the best all condition spinner followed by Jadeja .

Best spinners In terms of versatility(Doesn't mean overall best)

1 Lyon/Herath
2 Herath/Lyon

I think Herath has won his team 2 Test matches in SA and ENG.SL are very lucky to have him in side.

3 Jadeja/Yasir

Not Sure about this as Yasir has won 2 matches in Eng but absolutely failed in rest of overseas matches whereas jadeja has 6-fer in SA but most importanly he has performed brilliantly on Flat SC pitches unlike Ashwin)
 
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90s pitch were really bad, not all but most . See South Africa series of 96 1st and 3rd match or indo Pak 3 test matches in 98 or England series 94 or srilanka series. Even Sachin last series as a captain 1st test match was played on unprepared pitch.
Azhar was famous for this. History remembers Azhar captaincy for only doctored pitches. You have to read cricket related articles to check whether I am right or not. I am not saying to believe me just check yourself.

Ok mate,I’ll take your word for it
 
The problem is people don't realize Ashwin doesn't have the right sample set to judge either ways.

Some keep harping on Ashwin's Australia average but have no response to the points raised above where he averaged similar to Lyon in that series in the tests played (inspite of the massive difference in pace quality).

Try bowling on pattas where pacers leak 6 rpo consistently and let's see how much other spinners will average. Whenthe pitch turned which is when spinners come into play mainly, Ash started picking up wickets in Australia.

This is what happened after 2nd test when Ashwin came in:

yo.jpg

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;spanval3=span;template=results;type=bowling

Swann was hailed by world media for taking 15 wickets in 5 tests averaging 39 with 87 SR playing with in form Anderson, Broad and Bresnan who destroyed Aus.

Ashwin gets ridiculed for taking 12 wickets in 3 tests averaging 48 with 85 SR playing with spray gun pacers and team under the pump for most of the series (and whenever this happens, spinners' average is destroyed the most cos they are asked to bowl all filler overs cos pacers get tired). And best part is he didn't get to play in the test where it turned really lots.

I would love to see how many ATGs walk away with decent stats in Ashwin's position?

The only outside Asia other tests where Ash played was 1-1.

Wanderers flop.
Oval hit (you guys want Ash to pick 7fer in first innings Oval instead of 3fer in the only innings he bowled or you gonna penalize him for 0/29 in 14 overs on a pace friendly Manchester in the only innings he bowled?)

lol.
 
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Some keep harping on Ashwin's Australia average but have no response to the points raised above where he averaged similar to Lyon in that series in the tests played (inspite of the massive difference in pace quality).

His performance in Australia was good last time but as of now it still doesn't compensate for overall mediocre overseas performance.

Yes,Ashwin outbowled Lyon on matches where they both played in Australia(3 matches).But Lyon also outbowled R ashwin in india.Amongst the 4 spinners on display in that series he was worst.

In 2012,again He was outbowled by a world class spinner Swann.Swann averaged 24 whereas Ashwin averaged over 50.Amongst 4 spinners on display in that series,he was again worst.

I think he is a world class spinner on SC condition but his stats are certainly overrated.i believe his Outside SC stats aren't that bad as it suggest but he still has a lot to prove overseas.
 
The problem is people don't realize Ashwin doesn't have the right sample set to judge either ways.

I don't think anyone can disagree with this.That's why i believe 2018-2019 tours will decide his legacy.He will be again Outside his Comfort Zone,Hopefully this time he comes out on Top.
 
His performance in Australia was good last time but as of now it still doesn't compensate for overall mediocre overseas performance.

Yes,Ashwin outbowled Lyon on matches where they both played in Australia(3 matches).But Lyon also outbowled R ashwin in india.Amongst the 4 spinners on display in that series he was worst.

In 2012,again He was outbowled by a world class spinner Swann.Swann averaged 24 whereas Ashwin averaged over 50.Amongst 4 spinners on display in that series,he was again worst.

I think he is a world class spinner on SC condition but his stats are certainly overrated.i believe his Outside SC stats aren't that bad as it suggest but he still has a lot to prove overseas.

You raise good points but there is more to it:

1. Lyon outperformed Ash at a time when he was bowling at his absolute best and Ash was bowling at his absolute worst (due to injury - sports hernia). Lyon himself learnt how to bowl in Asia watching Ash videos over & over again, a fact which he has gracefully mentioned many times.

This is what Ash said after the England series (he pulled out of Ranji trophy game citing injury):

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/rav...first-test-steve-smith-virat-kohli/2017-02-18

2. Did you notice that inspite of Lyon bowling at his best and getting a laddoo like chance to prevent a series loss by winning it in bangalore...he blew it. On the contrary, Ash who was clearly struggling, came on to his own and won us the test in 2nd innings (aided by Rahul, Pujara, Rahane and Jaddu's previous performances ofcourse).

Lyon had a bit of a finger problem then so he struggled in Bangalore 2nd innings (still bowled great) but then he missed out winning the match, demoralizing India and possibly winning the series too. In 4th test, Ashwin again in 2nd innings, he did well to seal the test by taking out Handcomb and top scorer Maxwell who had hit Kuldeep out of the attack (it was a good team bowling effort in that innings when we bundled out Aussies). Kuldeep the star in first innings.

Even in his worst moment, he was impactful to win India the series. After that, he skipped IPL and worked on getting back to full fitness.

Even though India lost, Lyon was bowled MUCH MUCH better than Ash in that series and no one can take that away from him. In fact, as I said on current form, I rate Lyon and Jaddu over Ash.

2. As for Swann and Panesar outbowling Ashwin, yes it happened. Ashwin honestly sucked in that series. Got into some major technical faults with his action so much so that he was spraying the ball around. He flew his coach after the series to practice with him during domestic games where they identified his mistake and next series, he was MOS taking the most wickets.

This time England arrived and even though Ashwin was playing with injury (which hadn't deteriorated his bowling like it did against Australia) punished them. Some of us predicted this would happen and looking back, it was an easy prediction. :P

3. After debut, India has lost only 3 tests at home and 4 in Asia.

2 of those tests came in the ill-fated series where Ashwin's bowling went for a toss and our batting was over the hill.
1 of those tests came in recent Aus series.
Another one was in SL where he took a 10fer (Chandimal got out twice to Ash and Mishra but escaped due to lack of DRS and played a game changing innings and Herath cleaned us up).

What this shows is that when Ashwin is on top of his game, it's almost impossible for his team to lose in Asia (we lost in Galle due to 2 howlers and no DRS, a freak innings and a crazy collapse....those things are super super rare).

Every cricketer will have a bad series now and then. It happens. For Ashwin, it's super rare in Asia but it happened. It's important we look at the context and judge.

Of course, just because he has done well in Asia doesn't mean he will do well outside Asia.....time will tell how he fares. He needs to be accurate, put more revs on the ball and stay patient....and most importantly, the team shouldn't collapse for 150 in the first innings like they did in England at which point, a spinner's existence is pointless.
 
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Some relevant statistics from the article in The Guardian's Spin (discussing Lyon):

Graeme Swann has 22 wickets at 53 in Australia, Ravi Ashwin has 21 wickets at 55, Harbhajan Singh nine at 73, Muttiah Muralitharan 12 at 75, Saeed Ajmal two at 111. Lyon, though, has a fine record, 123 wickets at 34 each, with an economy of 3.14 and a strike rate of 65.
 
Some relevant statistics from the article in The Guardian's Spin (discussing Lyon):

Graeme Swann has 22 wickets at 53 in Australia, Ravi Ashwin has 21 wickets at 55, Harbhajan Singh nine at 73, Muttiah Muralitharan 12 at 75, Saeed Ajmal two at 111. Lyon, though, has a fine record, 123 wickets at 34 each, with an economy of 3.14 and a strike rate of 65.

Good discussion but again for Lyon Australia is his home. He bowls there day in and day out. You cannot compare spinners who play on those pitches once in a while to someone who has bowled there all his life.
 
Some relevant statistics from the article in The Guardian's Spin (discussing Lyon):

Graeme Swann has 22 wickets at 53 in Australia, Ravi Ashwin has 21 wickets at 55, Harbhajan Singh nine at 73, Muttiah Muralitharan 12 at 75, Saeed Ajmal two at 111. Lyon, though, has a fine record, 123 wickets at 34 each, with an economy of 3.14 and a strike rate of 65.

Ashwin was used a defensive option by Dhoni mostly. A run container. Even Ash was talking about it. Also Ashwin was still evolving when he had these performances abroad. One or two tests here and there won't tell you how good actually he is. Ashwin may fail on the roads that Australia will produce. But if there is even hint of assistance he will come alive. On roads you need a steady bowler who keeps doing the same thing again and again with good support from pacers. Ashwin is a bit impatient when he doesn't get wickets. You can see from his phenomenal strike rate.
 
216 wickets at home. That's 72%.

He STILL has another test match to go before going overseas, where he'll fail in the first couple of matches and will rightfully be dropped from the team.
 
Good discussion but again for Lyon Australia is his home. He bowls there day in and day out. You cannot compare spinners who play on those pitches once in a while to someone who has bowled there all his life.

Just because Australia is his home does not mean it is as easy for Lyon to succeed in Australia as it is for Ashwin to succeed in India.
 
As for Indian bowlers' work ethics go, Kapil, Kumble and to a certain extent, Srinath was good. Unfortunately, bad batting (sans Sachin) and catching let them down for the latter two and bad batting (sans Gavaskar) for Kapil. No one can forget how Kumble dismissed Brian Lara with a broken jaw. If one finger nail is injured, people excuse themselves today - I am not saying it is bad - I am only highlighting the attitude and fighting spirit, again of Indian bowlers. Attitude used to make up for the lesser skills abroad, again for these Indian bowlers.
 
My intention in posting these was not to "diss" Ashwin. Just that no finger spinner has been too successful in Australia (including Lyon and the great Murali (who could spin it on glass with his action)), and their role has been mostly to contain. Ashwin works extremely hard on his game - witness his passing the Yo-Yo test etc., and the varieties he keeps introducing, his successful stint at Worcester. He also is a good batsman abroad.
 
Will become an ATG is he can put up decent performances in Australia, England or South Africa, an average of 30 or less should do it
 
You raise good points but there is more to it:

1. Lyon outperformed Ash at a time when he was bowling at his absolute best and Ash was bowling at his absolute worst (due to injury - sports hernia). Lyon himself learnt how to bowl in Asia watching Ash videos over & over again, a fact which he has gracefully mentioned many times.

This is what Ash said after the England series (he pulled out of Ranji trophy game citing injury):

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/rav...first-test-steve-smith-virat-kohli/2017-02-18

2. Did you notice that inspite of Lyon bowling at his best and getting a laddoo like chance to prevent a series loss by winning it in bangalore...he blew it. On the contrary, Ash who was clearly struggling, came on to his own and won us the test in 2nd innings (aided by Rahul, Pujara, Rahane and Jaddu's previous performances ofcourse).

Lyon had a bit of a finger problem then so he struggled in Bangalore 2nd innings (still bowled great) but then he missed out winning the match, demoralizing India and possibly winning the series too. In 4th test, Ashwin again in 2nd innings, he did well to seal the test by taking out Handcomb and top scorer Maxwell who had hit Kuldeep out of the attack (it was a good team bowling effort in that innings when we bundled out Aussies). Kuldeep the star in first innings.

Even in his worst moment, he was impactful to win India the series. After that, he skipped IPL and worked on getting back to full fitness.

Even though India lost, Lyon was bowled MUCH MUCH better than Ash in that series and no one can take that away from him. In fact, as I said on current form, I rate Lyon and Jaddu over Ash.

2. As for Swann and Panesar outbowling Ashwin, yes it happened. Ashwin honestly sucked in that series. Got into some major technical faults with his action so much so that he was spraying the ball around. He flew his coach after the series to practice with him during domestic games where they identified his mistake and next series, he was MOS taking the most wickets.

This time England arrived and even though Ashwin was playing with injury (which hadn't deteriorated his bowling like it did against Australia) punished them. Some of us predicted this would happen and looking back, it was an easy prediction. :P

3. After debut, India has lost only 3 tests at home and 4 in Asia.

2 of those tests came in the ill-fated series where Ashwin's bowling went for a toss and our batting was over the hill.
1 of those tests came in recent Aus series.
Another one was in SL where he took a 10fer (Chandimal got out twice to Ash and Mishra but escaped due to lack of DRS and played a game changing innings and Herath cleaned us up).

What this shows is that when Ashwin is on top of his game, it's almost impossible for his team to lose in Asia (we lost in Galle due to 2 howlers and no DRS, a freak innings and a crazy collapse....those things are super super rare).

Every cricketer will have a bad series now and then. It happens. For Ashwin, it's super rare in Asia but it happened. It's important we look at the context and judge.

Of course, just because he has done well in Asia doesn't mean he will do well outside Asia.....time will tell how he fares. He needs to be accurate, put more revs on the ball and stay patient....and most importantly, the team shouldn't collapse for 150 in the first innings like they did in England at which point, a spinner's existence is pointless.

By comparing Lyon and Ashwin performance in india,I didn't mean that Lyon is better than Ashwin overall.I did that just to show Ashwin SC stats are overrated.

I don't disagree with any of your points.

Although i didn't knew about lyon's finger injury but i was aware of Ashwin's unfortunate hernia problem.You obviously believe fully fit Ashwin would've done much better in Ranchi(me too) but the point is he failed.

These things(bad luck,injury etc) happens to everybody in the game.For ex- he was unlucky to miss out on Durban and Adelaide where the ball was turning BUT you could also say that he was extremely lucky to be dropped for 2 test matches in NZ where he was coming after disastrous odi series in NZ,SA(He took combined 2 wickets @ 198 in 8 odi matches) and that wanderer test.If he had played those 2 matches in NZ then He might have averaged over 60 instead 56 outside SC.(against top ranked sides)

Even in West Indies 2016 he faced similar situation(like ranchi) on 5th day and he again failed to deliver when we desperately needed to win.The pitch flattened out due to rain on 5th day.We lost our no 1 ranking due to this and clueless people were criticizing Pujara after the match instead of praising Holder and Chase.

I agree on your point about Ashwin impact on indian team.If ashwin is having a good time,then india are also having good time.
 
Will become an ATG is he can put up decent performances in Australia, England or South Africa, an average of 30 or less should do it
You should also include New Zealand.Average of 30 is too much to ask from Ash.
I would consider him as a)ATG spinner if he averages around 37 in SA,AUS,NZ and ENG.
b) world class spinner if he averages around 45(in those 4 countries) at the end of his career.
 
You should also include New Zealand.Average of 30 is too much to ask from Ash.
I would consider him as a)ATG spinner if he averages around 37 in SA,AUS,NZ and ENG.
b) world class spinner if he averages around 45(in those 4 countries) at the end of his career.

No, he definitely needs a 50+ average in those countries to end up an ATG. He's already done that in Australia and South Africa, although the latter is based on a very small sample size.

Needs to correct his mid-30s average in England. On the other hand, Kohli with an average of 13 in England has been fantastic! Averages lower than the likes of McGrath, Imran, Wasim and Botham.
 
No, he definitely needs a 50+ average in those countries to end up an ATG. He's already done that in Australia and South Africa, although the latter is based on a very small sample size.

Needs to correct his mid-30s average in England. On the other hand, Kohli with an average of 13 in England has been fantastic! Averages lower than the likes of McGrath, Imran, Wasim and Botham.

No matter what is the discussion, be it even bowling discussion, Kohli's name must be mentioned, that's how much obsessed you are!!!
 
No, he definitely needs a 50+ average in those countries to end up an ATG. He's already done that in Australia and South Africa, although the latter is based on a very small sample size.

Needs to correct his mid-30s average in England. On the other hand, Kohli with an average of 13 in England has been fantastic! Averages lower than the likes of McGrath, Imran, Wasim and Botham.
Just to be clear i meant combine averages in those 4 countries
You should also consider where he has played away matches so far.He has played 6 matches in Aus,1 in SA,2 in ENG & 0 in NZ.AUS are graveyards for SC spinners
 
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By comparing Lyon and Ashwin performance in india,I didn't mean that Lyon is better than Ashwin overall.I did that just to show Ashwin SC stats are overrated.

I don't disagree with any of your points.

Although i didn't knew about lyon's finger injury but i was aware of Ashwin's unfortunate hernia problem.You obviously believe fully fit Ashwin would've done much better in Ranchi(me too) but the point is he failed.

These things(bad luck,injury etc) happens to everybody in the game.For ex- he was unlucky to miss out on Durban and Adelaide where the ball was turning BUT you could also say that he was extremely lucky to be dropped for 2 test matches in NZ where he was coming after disastrous odi series in NZ,SA(He took combined 2 wickets @ 198 in 8 odi matches) and that wanderer test.If he had played those 2 matches in NZ then He might have averaged over 60 instead 56 outside SC.(against top ranked sides)

Even in West Indies 2016 he faced similar situation(like ranchi) on 5th day and he again failed to deliver when we desperately needed to win.The pitch flattened out due to rain on 5th day.We lost our no 1 ranking due to this and clueless people were criticizing Pujara after the match instead of praising Holder and Chase.

I agree on your point about Ashwin impact on indian team.If ashwin is having a good time,then india are also having good time.

The thing is Ashwin's overall career stats are widely overblown (because of not playing enough outside Asia) but at the same time, unfortunate circumstances has affected the recognition he could get (the recognition that he gets now is for dominance in Asia rather than all-round performance).

I don't think it matters if Ash averages 56 or 60 or 70 outside Asia. I felt he is one bowler who missed out every single pitch where a spinner could take wickets and was bowled only on the patta of pattas that one could bowl.

1. He missed out on Durban 2013/14 turner

2. He missed on Lord's 2014 (which was green that turned properly on day 5 - Dhoni dropped Ash inspite of opposition filled with lefties and Jaddu not doing much in NZ)

3. He missed out on Adelaide 2014 where pitch turned and became a raging turner on day 4/5 (Lyon ran riots)

4. He missed out on Oval day 4/5 when that's typically when a spinner comes alive (got to bowl on day 2 after we were bundled out for 150 odd)

So out of the 10-15 innings he has bowled, he missed on every pitch that could help a spinner. The moment he got Sydney which turned, he came alive.

If he had been given the chances, his stats may not be good but his recognition could have been a LOT better. He would have easily won us Lord's (before Ishant saved us), picked up loads of wickets in Durban & Adelaide and people wouldn't criticize his outside Asia performance as much as now (cos by then, his outside Asia stats may have been bad but there would have been impactful performances).

Anyways, leaving aside that, I agree about the Sabina Park fiasco. I watched that game ball to ball. I felt there were some weird tactics by Kohli the last day (letting Mishra continue for too long even though he was getting thrashed, bringing Ash too late, bowler rotation was a bit off)....Ash actually started off great, picked up Blackwood quickly and troubled Roston quite a bit (he top edged too but sadly no fielder). Soon Dowrich and Roston got into flow and started scoring well. Dowrich was trapped by Ashwin which wasn't given but the ball was hitting the stumps but with no DRS, we couldn't do anything. Soon the batsmen went from strength to strength and Ashwin started losing his line and length altogether and got carted around. The pitch losing its zip (which Ian Bishop kept mentioning towards the end) didn't help either. Overall, our pacers who picked up 4 wickets in a session the previous day before rain went wicketless, Ash got carted and we had to settle for a draw.

WI went from 50/4 the previous day to 350/2 in that last day to 200 & 100 all out the next test.

With that being said, I personally felt Ashwin inspite of everything should have bowled better and won us the test. I could be wrong but I have a feeling Jaddu or Yasir in that test would have won it for their team cos they would have been more relentless and prized out the wickets.

As disappointing a result as it was for the team, such things tend to happen at times:

Lyon couldn't bowl out Saffer who had lost half the side in the famous Adelaide blockathon.
Swann couldn't defend 380 on a day 5 pitch.
Herath couldn't overcome a Duminy blockathon in SL.
Jadeja couldn't pick prevent the Wellington fiasco where Bmac and Watling snatched draw from the jaws of defeat.
Anderson/Broad couldn't defend a 330 totoal on day 5 against WI.

I am sure I am missing out a ton of other examples.

Don't get me wrong. I am not citing these examples to suggest that because they happened, we should pardon off Ash. No, poor performances have to be criticized (Wanderers & Sabina Park are a real blot on Ash's career). I am just mentioning these to point out that fiascos happen and we have to take in the stride and look at whether a player is improving & learning from that experience.

While Ash has fiascos like Wanderers, Sabina Park & Ranchi....he also has a 5fer in SA blockathon in Delhi 2015 (the pitch went dodo which allowed them to survive for so long), 3 crucial wickets in Kolkata 2016 pace track (pitch went flat on 4th innings), 4fer in 3rd test against SL 2014 (pace friendly track that eased out in the end which led to our series win)..

So let's see how things unfold in future. I am not sure whether Ash will get to play all the games outside Asia. We will be going for horses for courses policy but I think he should be playing a decent chunk of our tests in SA, Eng and Aus. Next year is gonna decide where he really stands.
 
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The thing is Ashwin's overall career stats are widely overblown (because of not playing enough outside Asia) but at the same time, unfortunate circumstances has affected the recognition he could get (the recognition that he gets now is for dominance in Asia rather than all-round performance).

I don't think it matters if Ash averages 56 or 60 or 70 outside Asia. I felt he is one bowler who missed out every single pitch where a spinner could take wickets and was bowled only on the patta of pattas that one could bowl.

1. He missed out on Durban 2013/14 turner

2. He missed on Lord's 2014 (which was green that turned properly on day 5 - Dhoni dropped Ash inspite of opposition filled with lefties and Jaddu not doing much in NZ)

3. He missed out on Adelaide 2014 where pitch turned and became a raging turner on day 4/5 (Lyon ran riots)

4. He missed out on Oval day 4/5 when that's typically when a spinner comes alive (got to bowl on day 2 after we were bundled out for 150 odd)

So out of the 10-15 innings he has bowled, he missed on every pitch that could help a spinner. The moment he got Sydney which turned, he came alive.

If he had been given the chances, his stats may not be good but his recognition could have been a LOT better. He would have easily won us Lord's (before Ishant saved us), picked up loads of wickets in Durban & Adelaide and people wouldn't criticize his outside Asia performance as much as now (cos by then, his outside Asia stats may have been bad but there would have been impactful performances).

Anyways, leaving aside that, I agree about the Sabina Park fiasco. I watched that game ball to ball. I felt there were some weird tactics by Kohli the last day (letting Mishra continue for too long even though he was getting thrashed, bringing Ash too late, bowler rotation was a bit off)....Ash actually started off great, picked up Blackwood quickly and troubled Roston quite a bit (he top edged too but sadly no fielder). Soon Dowrich and Roston got into flow and started scoring well. Dowrich was trapped by Ashwin which wasn't given but the ball was hitting the stumps but with no DRS, we couldn't do anything. Soon the batsmen went from strength to strength and Ashwin started losing his line and length altogether and got carted around. The pitch losing its zip (which Ian Bishop kept mentioning towards the end) didn't help either. Overall, our pacers who picked up 4 wickets in a session the previous day before rain went wicketless, Ash got carted and we had to settle for a draw.

WI went from 50/4 the previous day to 350/2 in that last day to 200 & 100 all out the next test.

With that being said, I personally felt Ashwin inspite of everything should have bowled better and won us the test. I could be wrong but I have a feeling Jaddu or Yasir in that test would have won it for their team cos they would have been more relentless and prized out the wickets.

As disappointing a result as it was for the team, such things tend to happen at times:

Lyon couldn't bowl out Saffer who had lost half the side in the famous Adelaide blockathon.
Swann couldn't defend 380 on a day 5 pitch.
Herath couldn't overcome a Duminy blockathon in SL.
Jadeja couldn't pick prevent the Wellington fiasco where Bmac and Watling snatched draw from the jaws of defeat.
Anderson/Broad couldn't defend a 330 totoal on day 5 against WI.

I am sure I am missing out a ton of other examples.

Don't get me wrong. I am not citing these examples to suggest that because they happened, we should pardon off Ash. No, poor performances have to be criticized (Wanderers & Sabina Park are a real blot on Ash's career). I am just mentioning these to point out that fiascos happen and we have to take in the stride and look at whether a player is improving & learning from that experience.

While Ash has fiascos like Wanderers, Sabina Park & Ranchi....he also has a 5fer in SA blockathon in Delhi 2015 (the pitch went dodo which allowed them to survive for so long), 3 crucial wickets in Kolkata 2016 pace track (pitch went flat on 4th innings), 4fer in 3rd test against SL 2014 (pace friendly track that eased out in the end which led to our series win)..

So let's see how things unfold in future. I am not sure whether Ash will get to play all the games outside Asia. We will be going for horses for courses policy but I think he should be playing a decent chunk of our tests in SA, Eng and Aus. Next year is gonna decide where he really stands.

Once again i agree with all your point.I don't think we have anything to disagree upon.Although you seem to be much bigger fan of Ashwin than me.I know His overseas stats are underrated but i was only trying to point out that Lyon,Herath has achieved much more than Ashwin away from home.

Main reasons we were humiliated(apart from fluke lord win) in England 2014 was because of Dhoni captaincy(3rd test) and selections.We probably left our potentially best bowler U yadav in india and didn't play ashwin as a first choice spinner.Although he didn't had great ipl but he should've been selected in 1st test who knows we could've won the first test.He bowled very well there in matches he did play and i remember he said he bowled as well as he could in one interview.

Lyon outbowled M ali in England which is not easy as M ali outbowled indian spinners(jadeja and Ashwin) in 2014 on green tracks.Lyon has taken 47 wickets @ 30 in SA,NZ & ENG where pitches are generally not turning.It's still a pretty good record even though he gets lots of support from quicks unlike jadeja and Ashwin.
Similarly R herath(another SC spinner like ashwin/jadeja) has won his team 2 matches in SA and ENG.He has also taken 12 wickets @33.91 in Australia.Unlike Herath &Lyon,Ashwin hasn't bowled against India and Pakistan batting lineup which are arguably two best batting line up against spin.Herath has struggled against India and Lyon against Pakistan.
By saying this i'm not trying to prove Lyon and Herath are better spinner than Ashwin rather There is not much difference between them(Herath,Ashwin,jadeja,Lyon) overall.



Many fans(not you) does not acknowledge that Ashwin has lot to prove on non turning pitches and consider him as ATG because of his ATG stats.They justify Ashwin's below par performance on non turning pitches by comparing murali/Warne stats in india or Dennis lillee in SC which i think is irrelevant.

Apart from fans,experts also overrate him.(Although this is not ashwin's fault)

S waugh said that ashwin is "bradman of bowling" in Feb 2017.Murali recently said Ashwin is "certainly" best spinner ATM when it is pretty obvious that jadeja and Lyon has bowled better than Ashwin in last 12 months.

if you exclude Herath who made his debut in 1999 and has taken 400+ wickets.I consider Ashwin as best spinner of the generation ATM but it can change.My ranking:-
1 Ashwin(300+ wickets in 54 matches is mind-boggling)
2 Jadeja
3 Lyon
4 Yasir-he is a world class talent but he hasn't played enough match so far.

Even though Lyon and jadeja are more versatile than Ashwin but that doesn't mean they are better than Ashwin.When i'm judging players i also rate their home performance.Like Ashwin , Pujara has also played most of his matches at home.He hasn't done well outside SC but has performed like ATG in SC.This is the reason why i rate him above likes of vijay and Rahane (who performed much better than Pujara outside SC).

However ATM,i don't consider him as genuine world class spinner like Kumble,Swann(let alone ATGs like warne&murali).Swann has many memorable/impactful performance in his career.For ex-: swann in ahemdabad(1st test 2012) where on slow flat pitch he took 5 wickets on first day of test.He took crucial wickets of Gambhir,Sehwag and Sachin.Those were well earned wickets of some of the greatest players of spin.Also he didn't get any support from pacers in that match.

You cannot consider him as world class ATM because there is "NO" world class bowler in last 30 years(probably ever) who averages over 56 away from home against top 5 ranked sides in the world.

Imagine if he plays all 3 matches in SA,performs poorly there(like last time),his outside SC average jumps over 60 and he gets dropped for rest of the away tour(which could be possible).Do you think anyone would consider him as world class then?i don't think so.That's why i believe 2018-2019 year will decide his legacy.

i think i have reconsider my assumptions on my post#151.He already has taken 300+ wickets in 54 matches.

Even though i don't judge players by only stats but it does give you some idea.Obviously it also depends on other factors like match winning performance,how many matches he played abroad etc.

I would consider him as

a)ATG spinner if he averages around 40 in SA,AUS,NZ and ENG.
b)World class spinner if he averages around 48-50(in those 4 countries) at the end of his career.

do you agree?
 
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Once again i agree with all your point.I don't think we have anything to disagree upon.Although you seem to be much bigger fan of Ashwin than me.I know His overseas stats are underrated but i was only trying to point out that Lyon,Herath has achieved much more than Ashwin away from home.

Main reasons we were humiliated(apart from fluke lord win) in England 2014 was because of Dhoni captaincy(3rd test) and selections.We probably left our potentially best bowler U yadav in india and didn't play ashwin as a first choice spinner.Although he didn't had great ipl but he should've been selected in 1st test who knows we could've won the first test.He bowled very well there in matches he did play and i remember he said he bowled as well as he could in one interview.

Lyon outbowled M ali in England which is not easy as M ali outbowled indian spinners(jadeja and Ashwin) in 2014 on green tracks.Lyon has taken 47 wickets @ 30 in SA,NZ & ENG where pitches are generally not turning.It's still a pretty good record even though he gets lots of support from quicks unlike jadeja and Ashwin.
Similarly R herath(another SC spinner like ashwin/jadeja) has won his team 2 matches in SA and ENG.He has also taken 12 wickets @33.91 in Australia.Unlike Herath &Lyon,Ashwin hasn't bowled against India and Pakistan batting lineup which are arguably two best batting line up against spin.Herath has struggled against India and Lyon against Pakistan.
By saying this i'm not trying to prove Lyon and Herath are better spinner than Ashwin rather There is not much difference between them(Herath,Ashwin,jadeja,Lyon) overall.



Many fans(not you) does not acknowledge that Ashwin has lot to prove on non turning pitches and consider him as ATG because of his ATG stats.They justify Ashwin's below par performance on non turning pitches by comparing murali/Warne stats in india or Dennis lillee in SC which i think is irrelevant.

Apart from fans,experts also overrate him.(Although this is not ashwin's fault)

S waugh said that ashwin is "bradman of bowling" in Feb 2017.Murali recently said Ashwin is "certainly" best spinner ATM when it is pretty obvious that jadeja and Lyon has bowled better than Ashwin in last 12 months.

if you exclude Herath who made his debut in 1999 and has taken 400+ wickets.I consider Ashwin as best spinner of the generation ATM but it can change.My ranking:-
1 Ashwin(300+ wickets in 54 matches is mind-boggling)
2 Jadeja
3 Lyon
4 Yasir-he is a world class talent but he hasn't played enough match so far.

Even though Lyon and jadeja are more versatile than Ashwin but that doesn't mean they are better than Ashwin.When i'm judging players i also rate their home performance.Like Ashwin , Pujara has also played most of his matches at home.He hasn't done well outside SC but has performed like ATG in SC.This is the reason why i rate him above likes of vijay and Rahane (who performed much better than Pujara outside SC).

However ATM,i don't consider him as genuine world class spinner like Kumble,Swann(let alone ATGs like warne&murali).Swann has many memorable/impactful performance in his career.For ex-: swann in ahemdabad(1st test 2012) where on slow flat pitch he took 5 wickets on first day of test.He took crucial wickets of Gambhir,Sehwag and Sachin.Those were well earned wickets of some of the greatest players of spin.Also he didn't get any support from pacers in that match.

You cannot consider him as world class ATM because there is "NO" world class bowler in last 30 years(probably ever) who averages over 56 away from home against top 5 ranked sides in the world.

Imagine if he plays all 3 matches in SA,performs poorly there(like last time),his outside SC average jumps over 60 and he gets dropped for rest of the away tour(which could be possible).Do you think anyone would consider him as world class then?i don't think so.That's why i believe 2018-2019 year will decide his legacy.

i think i have reconsider my assumptions on my post#151.He already has taken 300+ wickets in 54 matches.

Even though i don't judge players by only stats but it does give you some idea.Obviously it also depends on other factors like match winning performance,how many matches he played abroad etc.

I would consider him as

a)ATG spinner if he averages around 40 in SA,AUS,NZ and ENG.
b)World class spinner if he averages around 48-50(in those 4 countries) at the end of his career.

do you agree?

I was always in agreement with your points. Just added a few more points.

As for his performance outside Asia, he needs to have impact. Averaging 33 with zero impact is not better than averaging 40 or 45 with match winning performances when the opportunity presents itself and tight bowling otherwise. Economy rate is important too.

I want to see how he goes about bowling outside Asia before judging how much close (or far away) he is from being an ATG spinner. Considering only 2 spinners in the history of the game are considered ATGs, it's a herculean task.

I don't think he will get to bowl in all 3 SA tests if he isn't upto the mark in any one of them. We will be going for a horses for courses policy so in the next 12 overseas tests, he can expect to play 30-50%...with the rest dependent on his performance.
 
Ashwin vs Kumble (300 wickets)
[table= class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Tests [/td][td]Ashwin [/td][td]Kumble [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]31 [/td][td]24 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]30 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]38 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]53 [/td][td]45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]61 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]77 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]83 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]92 [/td][td]84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17 [/td][td]97 [/td][td]86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]95 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]99 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]108 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22 [/td][td]109 [/td][td]108 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23 [/td][td]114 [/td][td]109 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]110 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]113 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26 [/td][td]134 [/td][td]114 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]123 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]128 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]131 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30 [/td][td]157 [/td][td]136 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]31 [/td][td]169 [/td][td]138 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32 [/td][td]176 [/td][td]140 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]33 [/td][td]183 [/td][td]144 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]34 [/td][td]189 [/td][td]152 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35 [/td][td]192 [/td][td]159 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]36 [/td][td]193 [/td][td]160 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]37 [/td][td]203 [/td][td]162 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38 [/td][td]207 [/td][td]163 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]39 [/td][td]220 [/td][td]164 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]40 [/td][td]223 [/td][td]168 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]41 [/td][td]231 [/td][td]170 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]42 [/td][td]235 [/td][td]170 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]43 [/td][td]247 [/td][td]174 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]44 [/td][td]248 [/td][td]182 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]45 [/td][td]254 [/td][td]190 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]46 [/td][td]261 [/td][td]197 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]47 [/td][td]269 [/td][td]204 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]48 [/td][td]271 [/td][td]210 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]49 [/td][td]275 [/td][td]213 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]50 [/td][td]279 [/td][td]220 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]51 [/td][td]286 [/td][td]234 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]52 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]235 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]53 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]239 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]54 [/td][td]300 [/td][td]243 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]55 [/td][td] [/td][td]253 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]56 [/td][td] [/td][td]259 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]57 [/td][td] [/td][td]262 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]58 [/td][td] [/td][td]264 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]59 [/td][td] [/td][td]264 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]60 [/td][td] [/td][td]270 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]61 [/td][td] [/td][td]276 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]62 [/td][td] [/td][td]280 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]63 [/td][td] [/td][td]281 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]64 [/td][td] [/td][td]289 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]65 [/td][td] [/td][td]299 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]66 [/td][td] [/td][td]300 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
ash-kumble.jpg
 
Actually could had been 6 wickets if not for dropped catches, Rabada and Faf both were dropped of his bowling with both being normal catches.
 
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