Reason for violence between the Shia and Sunni sects

[Justcrazy]

Yes this is true. The less aid about Muawiya the better. But the events at Karbala were built up for a long time, and it all started with the treaty between Muawiya and Imam Hasan (as).

Basically, Imam Hasan (as) recieved Khilafat after Imam Ali (as). However, Muawiya drove the country into anarchy, and created many problems, killing many innocent people.

To stop this madness, Imam Hasan (as) signed a treaty, handing over Khilafat to Muawiya. The conditions were that the he was to appoint no successor, allow the Prophet (pbuh)'s family to preach and practise in peace, etc. Muawiya disregarded all the clauses, and appointed Yazid (his illegitimate son) as his successor. Yazid was known to do countless bad deeds, including drinking, etc. I won't go into those details.

When Muawiya died, Yazid became Khalifa. Nobody was happy. Yazid sent people to ask bayat (allegiance) from Imam Hussain (as). The other choice was death. Imam Hussain (as) fled, and after many events, he ended up surrounded in Karbala, by an army much bigger than his band of 72 men, plus women and children. Imam Hussain (as) and his band was brutally slaughtered on the battlefield of Karbala, and the women and children take prisoners, and went to Damascus, with the sight of their loved ones' heads on spears the whole way.

Despite the losses, Karbala was a huge victory for Islam. Had Imam Hussain (as) not take his stand, we would be following the Islam Yazid preached. The events of Karbala should not be looked upon as a Shia thing, it should be looked upon as a victory for Islam.

This victory was not made possible without Bibi Zainab (as) and Imam Zayn ul Abideen (as) (was sick in the battle, and did not fight, possibly in coma). The delivered speeches in Darbar e Yazid, and the people all over the nation realized what Yazid had done, and who he had killed. Yazid had killed Aale Mohammad.

This is extremely brief, and there are many missing things in between, so you may ask more if you want.

Brother , Ameer Muawiyah forced and also bribed people to accept Yazeed as King.

Imam Hassan RA Gave the power to Muawiyah so as to show that the excuse that he made of death of Uthman RA was false. His intention was to capture the throne. That is what happened. In 20 years Muawiyah never set any trial from killers of Uthman , neither punished anyone. This clearly exposed his motives.

As I said the crimes of Muawiyah is big.

Imam Nasai , clearly mentioned , to the crowd who wanted to hear virtues of Muawiyah , that if Allah swt forgives him , that is big enough for him , what virtues I can say.

All the top Muhaddith mention that there is exist not a single virtue of Muawiyah with authentic chain from prophet.

After this I am shocked that people giving lectures on his virtues for 3 hrs , this is insult to all hadeeth scholars.

Muawiyah said the shahadah and used to pray , so we can say that he was a Muslim , that is all. Nothing more.

 

[hussain.r97]

There was no discussion ever of 12 successors. Sunnis dont believe in the twelwers as far as i know. Also, both sects probably fabricated ahadith to support their views in this case.

This is from Wikipedia, has narrations from both Shia and Sunni hadith. Before calling it an unreliable source, it has all references at the bottom, so you can cross reference if you want.

Basically - The Messenger of Allah said: This affair (Islam) shall neither pass nor will come to an end while my twelve caliphs pass in it. All of them will be from Quraysh.

All of them have one message, there will be 12 caliphs, all from Quraysh.

 

[Justcrazy]

That is correct.

I'm actually interested to know the Sunni viewpoint on Imam Mehdi (as).

I know that both sects are awaiting the arrival of 'the Mehdi'.

But do Sunni's believe he is Imam Mehdi (as), the 12th Shia Imam, and descendant of the Prophet. Or do Sunni's believe it's someone else. From what I know, the view is divided between the many different Sunni schools of thought.

Brother I am a sunni . But I rather call myself Muslim . I am not a brainwashed sunni who will be biased.

Sunnis also believe in Imam Mahdi ( as ) , and they categorically belief that he would be from the lineage of Fatima RA and Ali RA .

Sunni Hadeeth also clearly show the superiority of Ahle Bayat , but the issue is that due to shia - sunni conflict , the Mullahs hide the virtues of Ahle bayat , and some nasbi elements have got into sunnis and they are influencing them.

 

[hussain.r97]

Brother , Ameer Muawiyah forced and also bribed people to accept Yazeed as King.

Imam Hassan RA Gave the power to Muawiyah so as to show that the excuse that he made of death of Uthman RA was false. His intention was to capture the throne. That is what happened. In 20 years Muawiyah never set any trial from killers of Uthman , neither punished anyone. This clearly exposed his motives.

As I said the crimes of Muawiyah is big.

Imam Nasai , clearly mentioned , to the crowd who wanted to hear virtues of Muawiyah , that if Allah swt forgives him , that is big enough for him , what virtues I can say.

All the top Muhaddith mention that there is exist not a single virtue of Muawiyah with authentic chain from prophet.

After this I am shocked that people giving lectures on his virtues for 3 hrs , this is insult to all hadeeth scholars.

Muawiyah said the shahadah and used to pray , so we can say that he was a Muslim , that is all. Nothing more.

Correct.

And I think Muawiya, and his father (Abu Sufyan), converted to Islam in fear of their lives, they didn't genuinely embrace it.

This family has given the Prophet (pbuh) and his family so much trouble.

 

[Justcrazy]

This is from Wikipedia, has narrations from both Shia and Sunni hadith. Before calling it an unreliable source, it has all references at the bottom, so you can cross reference if you want.

Basically - The Messenger of Allah said: This affair (Islam) shall neither pass nor will come to an end while my twelve caliphs pass in it. All of them will be from Quraysh.

All of them have one message, there will be 12 caliphs, all from Quraysh.

Yes , this is authentic hadeeth . Many have tried to explain this but not properly done.

 

[hussain.r97]

Brother I am a sunni . But I rather call myself Muslim . I am not a brainwashed sunni who will be biased.

This is good, I never usually call myself Shia, as that creates division. We should all call ourselves Muslims, and unite. Put our differences aside, and turn it into friendly debate. Focus should be on the core values of Islam, and the future. It's fine to know about the past, but we shouldn't dwell in it.

Sunnis also believe in Imam Mahdi ( as ) , and they categorically belief that he would be from the lineage of Fatima RA and Ali RA .

Sunni Hadeeth also clearly show the superiority of Ahle Bayat , but the issue is that due to shia - sunni conflict , the Mullahs hide the virtues of Ahle bayat , and some nasbi elements have got into sunnis and they are influencing them.

I find it surprising how many Sunni's say certain things which are absolutely opposite to what is written in Sunni books. It's great to educate yourself on Islam, as many people don't know anything, and blindly hate the other sect.

 

[Justcrazy]

Correct.

And I think Muawiya, and his father (Abu Sufyan), converted to Islam in fear of their lives, they didn't genuinely embrace it.

This family has given the Prophet (pbuh) and his family so much trouble.

I agree with the bold part.

Rest , well you see that is a possibility. Still we cannot comment what one has in heart.

One thing is for sure , the People of mecca were forgiven by Prophet after the conquest , but he never said that were of high status.

 

[Justcrazy]

I find it surprising how many Sunni's say certain things which are absolutely opposite to what is written in Sunni books. It's great to educate yourself on Islam, as many people don't know anything, and blindly hate the other sect.

Most of the people have been brainwashed. They not shown the hadeeth which exposes there made up Aqeedah.

For eg : Everyone I met believes that all companions are in Paradise , where as when I ask them of proof , they have no answer. The whole definition of sahabi is ambiguous.

Also , they say Abu bakr RA was most superior of the companions , the reason , the scholars have said so ? Why they said , no reason .

Last friday I heard a Jummah Khutba , it was about badr , the Mullah spoke for half an hour , but never mentioned Ali RA . The man who killed 80 % of enemies , you do not take name , why ?

 

[hussain.r97]

Yes , this is authentic hadeeth . Many have tried to explain this but not properly done.

It is quite difficult to explain. Much of these ones are vague. There are other ones, but those are purely Shia, and perhaps too blunt and maybe have some bias.

But Shia say that Khalifa means 'successor', which means the choice was down the succession. We also argue that the 12 imams were the only set of (Khalifa's/claims) which were all from Quraish.

We also narrate the event at Khumm, where the Prophet (pbuh) announced Imam Ali (as) as his successor in front of a large crowd. This did happen, however both Sects interpret what he said differently.

Another event where the Prophet (pbuh) may well have possibly been trying to announce his successor was when he was on his deathbed. He was at the stage where a sick person feels good just before death. Everyone was in the room in his house, many of his companions. The Prophet (pbuh) said he wanted to say something in writing so that it's cemented, and can't be twisted or over ruled. At this instant, the people in the room started arguing whether they should give it or not. The Prophet (pbuh), frustrated, asked everyone to leave. The question is, what did he want to write? There quite a big possibility that he wanted to announce a successor.

 

[Justcrazy]

It is quite difficult to explain. Much of these ones are vague. There are other ones, but those are purely Shia, and perhaps too blunt and maybe have some bias.

But Shia say that Khalifa means 'successor', which means the choice was down the succession. We also argue that the 12 imams were the only set of (Khalifa's/claims) which were all from Quraish.

We also narrate the event at Khumm, where the Prophet (pbuh) announced Imam Ali (as) as his successor in front of a large crowd. This did happen, however both Sects interpret what he said differently.

Another event where the Prophet (pbuh) may well have possibly been trying to announce his successor was when he was on his deathbed. He was at the stage where a sick person feels good just before death. Everyone was in the room in his house, many of his companions. The Prophet (pbuh) said he wanted to say something in writing so that it's cemented, and can't be twisted or over ruled. At this instant, the people in the room started arguing whether they should give it or not. The Prophet (pbuh), frustrated, asked everyone to leave. The question is, what did he want to write? There quite a big possibility that he wanted to announce a successor.

The ghadeer Hadeeth is mutawatir Hadeeth , narrated by numerous people. The shias and sunnis interpret it differently.

The hadeeth of Qirtas is also authentic ( Bukhari ). Umar RA made wrong decision , he had no right to stop prophet from writing that thing down. Its crystal clear , and there is nothing wrong in accepting where the companions were wrong.

 

[hussain.r97]

Most of the people have been brainwashed. They not shown the hadeeth which exposes there made up Aqeedah.

For eg : Everyone I met believes that all companions are in Paradise , where as when I ask them of proof , they have no answer. The whole definition of sahabi is ambiguous.

Also , they say Abu bakr RA was most superior of the companions , the reason , the scholars have said so ? Why they said , no reason.

Don't understand this either. Not all the companions were completely loyal to the Prophet (pbuh), and not all of them were pure/pious.

Last friday I heard a Jummah Khutba , it was about badr , the Mullah spoke for half an hour , but never mentioned Ali RA . The man who killed 80 % of enemies , you do not take name , why ?

Is this true? Imam Ali (as) played huge roles in pretty much all the battles. How can he not be mentioned. He was the bravest soldier in the Muslim army.

 

[hussain.r97]

The ghadeer Hadeeth is mutawatir Hadeeth , narrated by numerous people. The shias and sunnis interpret it differently.

The hadeeth of Qirtas is also authentic ( Bukhari ). Umar RA made wrong decision , he had no right to stop prophet from writing that thing down. Its crystal clear , and there is nothing wrong in accepting where the companions were wrong.

Yes, and if I'm correct. Umar (ra), said that 'The Prophet (pbuh) is talking nonsense in his sickness. We have the Quran, that is enough for us."

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

This is from Wikipedia, has narrations from both Shia and Sunni hadith. Before calling it an unreliable source, it has all references at the bottom, so you can cross reference if you want.

Basically - The Messenger of Allah said: This affair (Islam) shall neither pass nor will come to an end while my twelve caliphs pass in it. All of them will be from Quraysh.

All of them have one message, there will be 12 caliphs, all from Quraysh.

As expected you chose to quote this post rather than the other as you couldnt have answered something that was based on logic. Which Hadith. Refer me to the book?

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

The whole twelwer thing and all men should be from Quraysh is a fabrication made by Shias. Clearly. Its contradicting the main theme of Islam and Holy Quran.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Brother I am a sunni . But I rather call myself Muslim . I am not a brainwashed sunni who will be biased.

Sunnis also believe in Imam Mahdi ( as ) , and they categorically belief that he would be from the lineage of Fatima RA and Ali RA .

Sunni Hadeeth also clearly show the superiority of Ahle Bayat , but the issue is that due to shia - sunni conflict , the Mullahs hide the virtues of Ahle bayat , and some nasbi elements have got into sunnis and they are influencing them.

"O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most Taqwa among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." Noble Qur'an (49:13)

Shame on you for labelling Islam for making any race superior to others.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

I think i am done with this discussion.

 

[Justcrazy]

Don't understand this either. Not all the companions were completely loyal to the Prophet (pbuh), and not all of them were pure/pious.



Is this true? Imam Ali (as) played huge roles in pretty much all the battles. How can he not be mentioned. He was the bravest soldier in the Muslim army.

Its unfortunate . Today sunnis fear if they speak about ahle bayat , you would be labelled as shias.

 

[Justcrazy]

"O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is he who has most Taqwa among of you. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware." Noble Qur'an (49:13)

Shame on you for labelling Islam for making any race superior to others.

You misunderstanding .

Allah swt himself has chosen certain people over others .

Also , Ahle bayat have done deeds also , not just lineage.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

In other words, the Imamah of the Imami Shia would not have ended at the number twelve had it not been for this Hadith of the twelve Caliphs found in mainstream Muslim books of Hadith. It was this Hadith which was one of the “main reasons” that caused the Shia to terminate the Imamah at the number twelve. It is therefore based on very backwards and circular logic that the Shia should now use this Hadith as proof for their twelve Imams, when in fact it was they who based their belief on our Hadith! Today we have Shia youths who attack the Sunnis by saying “how could it simply be a coincidence that your Hadith also tells you about these twelve Imams?” Of course it is not a coincidence! It is the Shia who based their deviant beliefs in our Hadith, and so it is very queer of them to then further our Hadith as proof of their beliefs! This is very backwards and circular logic! It is placing the carriage before the horse, reversing cause and effect!

In fact, had the Sunni Hadith stated that there were eleven Caliphs instead of twelve, then the Shia would have claimed that their Imams were eleven in number. And once again, they would have come to us with incredulous looks on their faces, saying what a “miracle” it was that their beliefs can be “proven” from our books. Had it been thirteen Caliphs mentioned in the Sunni books of Hadith, then the Shia would have ended the Imamah at the number thirteen. The proof for the termination of the Shia Imamah was based from Sunni Hadith, so there is therefore no surprise at the concordance between the number of Caliphs in Sunni Hadith and the number of Shia Imams.

Indeed, the Shia in actuality did not have twelve Imams, but eleven of them. The eleventh Imam, Hasan al-Askari, died without leaving behind a son to succeed him. In fact, Hasan al-Askari’s own family were completely ignorant of the existence of any child of his, and Hasan al-Askari’s estate had been divided between his brother Jafar and his mother (instead of any to the son). Moojan Momen writes in “An Introduction to Shi’i Islam” (London, 1985, p. 162) that, “Jafar remained unshakeable in his assertion that his brother (Hasan al-Askari) had no progeny.” We read:

The majority of the Imamites…denied his birth or even his existence, and mocked those who believed in him. According to al-Nu’mani the bulk of these groups abandoned their belief in the hidden Imam. In fact those who continued to hold a firm belief in his Imamate were a small minority belonging to the circles of narrators, like Ibn Qubba and al-Nu’mani himself, who based their belief on the traditions of the Imams (i.e. Hadith about twelve Imams).

Many scholars shared the perplexity of the Imamite masses over the prolonged occultation of the twelfth Imam.

(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.143)

Indeed, if Hasan al-Askari really had a child, then why did his own family not give a share of the inheritance to him? To deal with this inconsistency, the Imami Shia of the time denounced Jafar as being “al-Kadhab” (the Liar), and they came up with the fantastic story that the eleventh Imam had a son but that this son was hidden from view (i.e. in occultation).

In order to “prove” the existence of this mysterious son, the Imami Shia actually brought forward the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs and others similar to it, in order to somehow prove that the Imamah could not possibly have ended at eleven persons but must be twelve in number. Nonetheless, such fantastic explanations did not fool the vast majority of the Imami Shia who “apostatized” from Imamiyyah Shi’ism in order to embrace Sunni Islam or other branches of Shi’ism. In fact, the Shia movement split into at least fifteen different sects after the eleventh Imam’s death, some of these sects claiming that the Imams were only eleven in number (and ended with Hasan al-Askari). These sects were defeated and denounced by the Imami Shia safir (representative) who used the Hadith of the twelve Caliphs–along with an intensive propaganda campaign–to silence any who opposed the idea of there being exactly twelve Imams; it was because of this very Hadith that these other Shia groups–who believed in eleven Imams–fell into non-existence. We read:

Although the Imamites split into fifteen groups and held different views concerning the successor of al-Askari at the time of the first safir, the teaching and the underground activities of the second safir met with success. His followers (al-Imamiyya al-Qat’iyya) carried out intensive propaganda to prove the existence of the twelfth Imam…thus the teachings and doctrine of the followers of the second safir dominated Imamite circles, whereas other groups disappeared.

This one pretty much says it. The 11th imam didnt even have a son to begin with.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

You misunderstanding .

Allah swt himself has chosen certain people over others .

Also , Ahle bayat have done deeds also , not just lineage.

Those who have been granted the news of Jannah are definitely lucky and might be superior in terms of virtue. It ends here. Nothing more than that.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

About Ameer Muaiwayh, i have read contradicting reports. Some credit him to writing the last verse of Holy Quran but then some bash him as a fitna due to Battle of Siffin and then breaking the treaty with Ali's sons. Strange.

 

[Justcrazy]

About Ameer Muaiwayh, i have read contradicting reports. Some credit him to writing the last verse of Holy Quran but then some bash him as a fitna due to Battle of Siffin and then breaking the treaty with Ali's sons. Strange.

Do they have any proof of him writing the last verse?

Also , there is a debate on what was the last verse.

Moreover , its not only about battle of siffin , he at personal level was also not following shariah.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

Do they have any proof of him writing the last verse?

Also , there is a debate on what was the last verse.

Moreover , its not only about battle of siffin , he at personal level was also not following shariah.

Yeah. Even read he abused ali. Wow. Cant believe this stuff. We knew yazid was evil but now even his father. Well. Allah knows better.

Can you tell me about the last verse of Holy quran issue and the personal shariah one.

 

[Justcrazy]

Yeah. Even read he abused ali. Wow. Cant believe this stuff. We knew yazid was evil but now even his father. Well. Allah knows better.

Can you tell me about the last verse of Holy quran issue and the personal shariah one.

If he had abused himself only , that maybe excused , since we can get excited sometimes.

But Ali RA was abused from the Mimbars of banu Ummayah throughout 60 years , and this was started by Ameer Muawiyah. It carried on after his death also , it was stopped by Umar Abdul Aziz RA.

The last verse is difference of opinion , but Muawiyah never wrote verses , he wrote letters and documents.

Shariah issues are that Muawiyah used to have alcohol , he used to use silk and gold , despite all this prohibited.

His worst crime was making the Khilafat Monarchy, and we paying for that even today.

Yazeed was bad , but the one who hurt Islam was his father , he made Yazeed a ruler through force.

 

[karthikc]

These hadiths are something like Gospels in Bible?

How many hadiths are there?

 

[Justcrazy]

These hadiths are something like Gospels in Bible?

How many hadiths are there?

There are several hadeeth books.

They have been graded into categories like Authentic , Good , weak fabricated etc.

They are secondary source of Muslim Laws.

 

[uberkoen]

Brother , Ameer Muawiyah forced and also bribed people to accept Yazeed as King.

Imam Hassan RA Gave the power to Muawiyah so as to show that the excuse that he made of death of Uthman RA was false. His intention was to capture the throne. That is what happened. In 20 years Muawiyah never set any trial from killers of Uthman , neither punished anyone. This clearly exposed his motives.

As I said the crimes of Muawiyah is big.

Imam Nasai , clearly mentioned , to the crowd who wanted to hear virtues of Muawiyah , that if Allah swt forgives him , that is big enough for him , what virtues I can say.

All the top Muhaddith mention that there is exist not a single virtue of Muawiyah with authentic chain from prophet.

After this I am shocked that people giving lectures on his virtues for 3 hrs , this is insult to all hadeeth scholars.

Muawiyah said the shahadah and used to pray , so we can say that he was a Muslim , that is all. Nothing more.

1. Can you provide proof for your first statement or this just a made-up story of yours?

2. Hazrat Ali was the successor. He never punished the killers of Hazrat Usman either yet you claim these to be Mauwiyah's crimes?


I believe the position of mainstream Islam on this issue is that Muawiyah is not viewed as acting out of some kind of evil or maneouvalent intent, but rather he was acting out of a result of the circumstances that prevailed at the time.

This is not a defence nor a condemnation of him, but rather an attempt to look at the matter objectively.

After the murder of Uthman (ra), the Caliph of Islam and the Muslims, the Muslims were thrown into disarray. The normal process when someone was murdered is that the culprits would be caught and the family would be given justice - either blood money for them or execution for the murderer. One would think it even more important that if the ruler is murdered, especially when there were so many witnesses present, that justice would have been done.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case, and the new Caliph Ali (ra) wasn't able to prosecute any of those responsible. Had this been possible, then perhaps we might never have seen the chaos that followed.

In any case, as you may be aware, Muawiya and some others of his supporters took flight from Medina to go back to Syria, and thereby refused to give bayah to Ali (ra), and to recognize him as Caliph, until Uthman's murder was investigated and given justice.

The mainstream view is that there wasn't any intent for Muawiyah to make some kind of megalomaniac grab for power. We do not hold the view that he was seeking redress or revenge for the slaying of his mushrik family members from days gone by. He was seeking justice for the murder of his cousin, the Caliph of Islam, Uthman (ra).

It is believed that with regards to the affair between Ali (ra) and Muawiyah that both exercised ijtihad to the best of their abilities, and so Allah will judge them both on that. However, retrospectively it is clearer that Ali (ra) held the better and more righteous position, and for that reason, mainstream Islam gives preference to the decision of Ali (ra) in this regard. However, Muawiyah is not cursed for his stance, since he was a faqih and a Companion of the Prophet.

Whilst others of his family like Abu Sufyan etc, only converted after Makkah was conquered, Muawiyah is reported to have embraced Islam long before, and it is also reported that he was one of the Prophet's (saw) scribes.

Later, after the murder of Hazrat Ali (RA). Hassan (ra), the son of Ali (ra) met with Muawiyah, where he agreed to give power of Caliph to Muawiyah. Muawiyah promised Hassan something Muawiyah himself was denied, justice for the murder of his family member. And Muawiyah delivered on that promise. And Muawiyah ruled for some time, and Hassan lived in relative comfort in Medina.

This is what is believed to have taken place at that time.

 

[uberkoen]

If he had abused himself only , that maybe excused , since we can get excited sometimes.

But Ali RA was abused from the Mimbars of banu Ummayah throughout 60 years , and this was started by Ameer Muawiyah. It carried on after his death also , it was stopped by Umar Abdul Aziz RA.

The last verse is difference of opinion , but Muawiyah never wrote verses , he wrote letters and documents.

Shariah issues are that Muawiyah used to have alcohol , he used to use silk and gold , despite all this prohibited.

His worst crime was making the Khilafat Monarchy, and we paying for that even today.

Yazeed was bad , but the one who hurt Islam was his father , he made Yazeed a ruler through force.

I like how you ask for proof yet fail to give any in your own statements.

Can you quote any acknowledged and well respected Muslims scholar who can back up your claims mentioned above?

 

[Justcrazy]

I like how you ask for proof yet fail to give any in your own statements.

Can you quote any acknowledged and well respected Muslims scholar who can back up your claims mentioned above?

Muawiyah was not writer of revelation

Narrated Anas:

`Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa`id bin Al-`As and `AbdurRahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of book in several copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons. " If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Qur'an, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Qur'an was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. (Sa`id bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish ).

( Bukhari 3505 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/61 )

Muawiyah Made ijtehad or wanted kingdom

Narrated `Ikrima bin Khalid:

Ibn `Umar said, "I went to Hafsa while water was dribbling from her twined braids. I said, 'The condition of the people is as you see, and no authority has been given to me.' Hafsa said, (to me), 'Go to them, and as they (i.e. the people) are waiting for you, and I am afraid your absence from them will produce division amongst them.' " So Hafsa did not leave Ibn `Umar till we went to them. When the people differed. Muawiya addressed the people saying, "'If anybody wants to say anything in this matter of the Caliphate, he should show up and not conceal himself, for we are more rightful to be a Caliph than he and his father." On that, Habib bin Masalama said (to Ibn `Umar), "Why don't you reply to him (i.e. Muawiya)?" `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "I untied my garment that was going round my back and legs while I was sitting and was about to say, 'He who fought against you and against your father for the sake of Islam, is more rightful to be a Caliph,' but I was afraid that my statement might produce differences amongst the people and cause bloodshed, and my statement might be interpreted not as I intended. (So I kept quiet) remembering what Allah has prepared in the Gardens of Paradise (for those who are patient and prefer the Hereafter to this worldly life)." Habib said, "You did what kept you safe and secure (i.e. you were wise in doing so).

( Bukhari 4108 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/64 )

There are references from Ibn Kathir ( Al Bidaya Wal nihaya ) also where Muawiyah wants to be king and also hadeeth which Amaar Bin Yaasar mentions Muawiyah fought for kingdom.

Muawiyah using Gold and Silk

Khalid said:

Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib and a man of Banu Asad from the people of Qinnisrin went to Mu'awiyah ibn AbuSufyan.
Mu'awiyah said to al-Miqdam: Do you know that al-Hasan ibn Ali has died? Al-Miqdam recited the Qur'anic verse "We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return."
A man asked him: Do you think it a calamity? He replied: Why should I not consider it a calamity when it is a fact that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to take him on his lap, saying: This belongs to me and Husayn belongs to Ali?
The man of Banu Asad said: (He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished. Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike. He then said: Mu'awiyah, if I speak the truth, declare me true, and if I tell a lie, declare me false.
He said: Do so. He said: I adjure you by Allah, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbidding use to wear gold?
He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) prohibited the wearing of silk?
He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) prohibited the wearing of the skins of beasts of prey and riding on them?
He said: Yes. He said: I swear by Allah, I saw all this in your house, O Mu'awiyah.
Mu'awiyah said: I know that I cannot be saved from you, O Miqdam.
Khalid said: Mu'awiyah then ordered to give him what he did not order to give to his two companions, and gave a stipend of two hundred (dirhams) to his son. Al-Miqdam then divided it among his companions, and the man of Banu Asad did not give anything to anyone from the property he received. When Mu'awiyah was informed about it, he said: Al-Miqdam is a generous man; he has an open hand (for generosity). The man of Banu Asad withholds his things in a good manner.

( Abu Dawood 4131) ( http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/34 )


There are several other hadeeth ( all sunni literature ) speaking about deeds of Muawiyah.

You said Ali RA did not punish the killers of Utman RA , how much time did he spend in Medina? he had to face three consecutive rebellions , Jamal , siffin , Narwan . Do you realize how tough it was ?

Do you know what prophet said about Ali RA about those three battles ? Go and read authentic hadeeth Books . In Ibn Shayaba there are around 180 hadeeth on these wars , its translated into urdu . Read that you will know everything.


Muawiyah had no authority of ijtehad whatso ever . A person who himself contravenes shariah what ijtehad can he make.

As far as the incident of Imam Nasai is concerned its found in every biography of Muhaddith. You can see that in Ibn Khallikun . Its in English . You can read it online.

Also , same incident mentioned by Dhabi .

Also , by shah dellvhi RA in his book " Bustan - e muhaddit "

 

[hussain.r97]

This one pretty much says it. The 11th imam didnt even have a son to begin with.

This is completely wrong. I will reply with further proof later. In fact, i'll forward this to Ayatollah Sistani himself, so you will have a personal response with proofs from him.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

If he had abused himself only , that maybe excused , since we can get excited sometimes.

But Ali RA was abused from the Mimbars of banu Ummayah throughout 60 years , and this was started by Ameer Muawiyah. It carried on after his death also , it was stopped by Umar Abdul Aziz RA.

The last verse is difference of opinion , but Muawiyah never wrote verses , he wrote letters and documents.

Shariah issues are that Muawiyah used to have alcohol , he used to use silk and gold , despite all this prohibited.

His worst crime was making the Khilafat Monarchy, and we paying for that even today.

Yazeed was bad , but the one who hurt Islam was his father , he made Yazeed a ruler through force.

Can you narrate an authentic tradition regarding abusing of Ali by Muaiwayah. I am not able to find any.

Secondly. How can you be so sure? I am still doubtful over this. Even the hadith you posted below just names three scribes whereas there were more than three. You dont prove anything.

Third. Why didnt Ali take revenge of uthman? If my family member is killed i would abuse the other guy in authority too if they don't do anything about it. The battles you talk about were the result of Ali failing to do anything about Uthman's murder.

Fourth. Khilafat should have ended after Ali. It was no one's birth right to begin with.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

This is completely wrong. I will reply with further proof later. In fact, i'll forward this to Ayatollah Sistani himself, so you will have a personal response with proofs from him.

Now you would by lying if you claim that 11th imam had a son.

 

[hussain.r97]

Now you would by lying if you claim that 11th imam had a son.

How would I be lying? He did have a son. Your post above is flawed in many ways. Where the hell did inheritance come from anyway? The 11th Imam was under house arrest, as was his father. It is absolutely possible for him to be born without knowing.

Also, Imam Mahdi (as)'s mother is known too. Her name was Narjis, and she was from Byzantium/Roman Empire.

Once again, you'll received a detailed reply soon.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

How would I be lying? He did have a son. Your post above is flawed in many ways. Where the hell did inheritance come from anyway? The 11th Imam was under house arrest, as was his father. It is absolutely possible for him to be born without knowing.

Also, Imam Mahdi (as)'s mother is known too. Her name was Narjis, and she was from Byzantium/Roman Empire.

Once again, you'll received a detailed reply soon.

In your view mehdi has arrived which logically doesnt makes sense as he would be too old. On the other hand, as per sunni belief he still has to arrive.

 

[Justcrazy]

Can you narrate an authentic tradition regarding abusing of Ali by Muaiwayah. I am not able to find any.

Secondly. How can you be so sure? I am still doubtful over this. Even the hadith you posted below just names three scribes whereas there were more than three. You dont prove anything.

Third. Why didnt Ali take revenge of uthman? If my family member is killed i would abuse the other guy in authority too if they don't do anything about it. The battles you talk about were the result of Ali failing to do anything about Uthman's murder.

Fourth. Khilafat should have ended after Ali. It was no one's birth right to begin with.

Brother , Muawiyah was writer of documents , also as I mentioned above , being writer of revelations does not count as virtue because one writer of revelation left Islam and died as Murtad . This is in Bukhari itself.

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyan appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:

What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camels. I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) say about 'Ali as he left him behind in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'Ali said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger, and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We had been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: "Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

( Muslim 2404 d ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/44 )


As for the narration of Saad when Muawiyah ordered him to curse Ali , but he refused to do so . He said , what prevents you from cursing Ali ibn abi talib ? He replied , it is because of three things , which I heard Allah ( swt ) Messenger said about him that I would not curse him , even if he had one of the three things he would be more dear to me than red camels.

( Minhaj Ul Sunnah , Ibn Tamiyyah , volume 5 , page 42 )


He says , “ His saying that “ he cursed him “ means Muawiyah cursed Ali ( Ra ) and abused him. In fact he also Ordered Saad to curse him in Sahi Muslim.

( Sharah Sunnah Ibn Maja , Imam Al Sindi , Volume 1 , page 86 )


“When Hassan bin Ali died, Mu’awyia performed the Hajj, and then entered into Madina where he wanted to curse Ali from Prophet’s pulpit, thus they said to him: ‘Sa’d bin Abi Waqqas is right here and he will not accept your behaviour, you should ask him first.’ Thus he sent for him and asked him about this to which he (Sa’d) said: ‘If you did it, I shall leave the mosque and never come here again.’ Thus Mu’awiya restrained himself from cursing (Ali) until Sa’d passed away, when Sa’d died, he cursed him (Ali) from the pulpit and also ordered his governors to curse him from the pulpits and they (his governors) did likewise. Then Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (pbuh), wrote to Mu’awyia saying: ‘You are cursing Allah and his Messenger from your pulpits and that is as a result of cursing Ali bin Abi Talib and his lovers and I testify that Allah and his Messenger love him.’ However he (Mu’awyia) didn’t pay any attention to her statement”.

( Al Aqd Al Fareed , Page 300 )


From Abdillah al-Mazini who said: ‘When Muawiya left Kufa he employed al-Mughirah ibn Shubah. ’He said: al-Mughirah hired orators to insult Ali’.

( Musnad Hanbal , Volume 3 , page 185 )


Now , if you want authentic hadeeth about Muawiyah killing innocent people , I will show you , right from Muslim itself , I am a bit busy now , but I will show you where it clearly shows the deeds of Muawiyah.


You said Khilafat should have ended with Ali RA , it no ones birthright. Do you know why the first five khalifas are called Khulafa e rashid?

 

[hussain.r97]

In your view mehdi has arrived which logically doesnt makes sense as he would be too old. On the other hand, as per sunni belief he still has to arrive.

He is in major occultation, hidden by Allah.

And you cannot generalize that as Sunni belief, because each Sunni school of thought has different views.

 

[hussain.r97]

In your view mehdi has arrived which logically doesnt makes sense as he would be too old. On the other hand, as per sunni belief he still has to arrive.

Sunni Documentation on Imam al-Mahdi (as)

بِسْمِ اللَّـهِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
For the Sunni brothers, there are six major collections of traditions based on the Sunni standards for verifying the authenticity of a tradition. These six books are: Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Ibn Majah, Sunan Abu Dawud, and Sahih al-Nisa’i. I just quote few traditions from these six books to prove that a knowledgeable Sunni brother/sister can NOT deny that:

• al-Mahdi (as) will come in the last days to make a universal Government,

• al-Mahdi (as) is from the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (S),

• al-Mahdi (as) is from the progeny of Fatimah (sa), the daughter of the Prophet (S),

• al-Mahdi (as) is different than Prophet Jesus (the Messiah),

• Prophet Jesus (as) will come as one of the followers of Imam al-Mahdi and will pray behind him in congressional prayer.

Another undeniable fact is that many leading Sunni scholars have written books after books exclusively about Imam al-Mahdi (as) which I included some of their names at the end of this article.

Moreover, Insha Allah in the next article, I will give a list of Sunni scholars who believe that Imam al-Mahdi (as) is son of Imam Hasan al-Askari (as), and is alive and went into occultation. In that article will also discuss the special specifications of Imam al-Mahdi which are the points of disagreement between the Shi’a and the Sunni.

The following are only some of the traditions about Imam al-Mahdi which Sunnis admit to their authenticity and existence:

The Prophet (S) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world’s existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

• Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75

• Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63

• al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557

• Jami’ al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160

• al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2

• al-Majma’, by al-Tabarani, p217

• Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144

• Fat’h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249

• al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617

• al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166

• Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348

• Fat’h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41

• Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186

• Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,

• al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi’i, Ch. 12

• al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12

• Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380

• Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266

• and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua’ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

Also:

The Prophet (S) said: "al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4085

It is evident from the above traditions that Imam al-Mahdi (as) is from the Ahlul-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, so he can not be Jesus (the Messiah; al-Maseeh). Thus, al-Mahdi and Messiah are two different personalities but they come at the same time, al-Mahdi as Imam and Jesus as his follower. The following tradition clearly mentions that Imam al-Mahdi is one of descendants of the daughter of Prophet Muhammad (S):

The Prophet (S) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet’s daughter).

ألمَهديُّ مِن عترتي من ولد فاطمة
Sunni references:

• Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271 (narrated by Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086

• al-Nisa’i and al-Bayhaqi, and others as quoted in:

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249

Also:

The Prophet (S) said: "We the children of Abd al-Muttalib are the Masters of the inhabitants of the heaven: Myself, Hamza (ra), ‘Ali (as), Ja’far Ibn Abi Talib (ra), al-Hasan (as), al-Husayn (as), and al-Mahdi (as)."

Sunni references:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4087

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, on the authority of Anas Ibn Malik

• al-Daylami

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p245

The Prophet (S) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; at that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (as) will say: Here! Take!"

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #5083

Remark: According to Shi’i sources, the Government of Peace and equality that Imam al-Mahdi will establish will last hundreds of years with no rival, and then the day of Judgment will commence. What is mentioned in the above tradition as 7 or 9 years is the length of time that Imam al-Mahdi (as) will fight to conquer the world when he starts his mission.

The Prophet (S) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

Sunni references:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,

• The History Tabari

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251

Also:

The Messenger of Allah said: "The world will not perish until a man among the Arabs appears whose name matches my name."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v9, p74

In Sahih Muslim, in the Chapter of al-Fitan, there are some interesting traditions on what will happen in the last days of the world. I would like to quote two of them here:

Abu Nadra reported: We were with the company of Jabir Ibn Abdillah... Jabir Ibn Abdillah kept quite for a while and then reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: "There would be a Caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it.”I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-Ala: Do you mean Umar Ibn Abd al-Aziz? They said: NO, (he would be Imam Mahdi).

Sunni references:

• Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6961

• Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2234, Tradition #67

(NOTE: What are inside the parentheses in the above tradition are NOT my comments. They are the words of the translator of Sahih Muslim (Abdul Hamid Siddiqui).)

Similarly, we read in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Sa’id and Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: "There would be in the last (phase) of the time a Caliph who would distribute wealth but would not count."

Sunni references:

• Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6964

• Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2235, Tradition #69

It is also narrated:

In the end of the time, my Ummah will undergo very hard affliction like never before, so that man can not find any way out. Then Allah will appear a person from my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt, who will fill the earth with justice as it was filled with injustice. The inhabitants of the earth and the inhabitants of the heaven love him. The sky will bring down its water everywhere and the earth will bring all what it can offer and will become green all over.

Sunni references:

• al-Sahih fi al-Hadith, by al-Hakim, as quoted in:

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p250

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Muhammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam ‘Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (S) said:

"al-Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his appearance within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredictable and is very sudden)."

Sunni references:

• Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, p269

• Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in:

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p250

Moreover, it is narrated that:

‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) said: "When the ‘Support’ of the family of Muhammad (al-Qa’im Aale Muhammad) rises Allah will unite the people of east and the people of west."

Sunni references:

• Ibn Asakir, as quoted in:

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p252

Ibn Hajar wrote that:

Muqatil Ibn Sulayman and those who followed him among the (Sunni) commentators of Qur’an said that the verse: "And he shall be a Sign for (the coming of) the Hour”(Qur’an 43:61) was revealed about al-Mahdi.

Sunni reference: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p247

Also Ahmad Ibn Hanbal recorded:

The Prophet (S) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my Family and just before the Day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression."

Sunni references:

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

• A close version has also been narrated in Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4270 narrated from ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as).

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Sunni reference:

• Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193

• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384

• al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p251

• Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57

• Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala which provides another version of the tradition with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies: "You have more right to it, and verily Allah has honored some of you over others in this Ummah."

• Sahih Ibn Habban, whose tradition reads: "their leader al-Mahdi”and the rest of tradition is the same.

• Ibn Abu Shaybah, another Sunni traditionist, and the mentor of al-Bukhari and Muslim, has reported several traditions about Imam al-Mahdi (as). He has also reported that the Imam of the Muslims who will lead Prophet Jesus in prayer is Imam al-Mahdi himself.

Jalaluddin al-Suyuti mentioned that: "I have heard some of the deniers of (truth) deny what has been conveyed about Jesus that when he descends will pray the Fajr prayer behind al-Mahdi. They say, Jesus has higher status than to pray behind a non-Prophet.

This is a bizarre opinion since the issue of prayer of Jesus behind al-Mahdi has been proven strongly via numerous authentic traditions from the Messenger of Allah, who is the most truthful.”And then al-Suyuti goes on narrating some of the traditions in this regard. (See Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p56).

Also al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (S) will come down and pray behind him."

Sunni reference: Fat’h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

This is also mentioned by another Sunni scholar, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, who wrote:

"The Ahlul-Bayt are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction, and if the starts are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come, as mentioned in the traditions, and the Prophet Jesus will say his prayers behind him, the Dajjal will be slain, and then the signs of the Almighty will appear one after another."

Sunni reference: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p234

Also Ibn Hajar quoted Abu al-Husayn al-Ajiri saying:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (S) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.

Sunni reference:

• Abu al-Husayn al-Ajiri as quoted in al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p254

So if al-Mahdi and Jesus are to be the same person as some ignorants claim, then how can one prays behind himself?! Moreover this shows that Imam al-Mahdi and Jesus (the Messiah) will come at the same time so that they could pray the morning prayer together in Jerusalem.

In fact, the equivalent word of "Messiah”in Arabic is "al-Maseeh”which means "Wiped Clean; Purified". This word has been used in Qur’an as the title of Prophet Jesus (as). As such, the "Messiah”is the Prophet Jesus (as) and not the Imam al-Mahdi (as).

However, the word "Messiah”in English has another meaning, that is "savior". As a result, there have been some English translators who used the word "Messiah”for Imam al-Mahdi (as) with the meaning of "Savior”which does NOT have anything to do with Arabic word "al-Maseeh".

I should point out that, there exists a fabricated tradition which is mainly used by Ahmadis and Qadianis to prove that al-Mahdi and Jesus are the same. The tradition states: "And no Mahdi except Jesus.”

This tradition has been rated by al-Hakim as unknown and strange and he said there are discrepancy in its chain of authorities. al-Bayhaqi said Muhammad Ibn Khalid said this tradition is single (Mufrad). al-Nisa’i has mentioned that this tradition is unfamiliar and is denied, and that the memorizers of traditions confirm that the traditions which state that al-Mahdi is the descendants of Fatimah are authentic and reliable. (See al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, Ch. 11, section 1, p252 for details).

Prophet Jesus is not the Imam of Muslims, and when he comes back, he will be the follower of the Imam of Muslims who is known as Imam al-Mahdi (as).

In Sahih al-Bukhari, it is narrated that:

The Prophet (S) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Marry (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"

Sunni reference:

• Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v4, Tradition #658

NOTE: The above is my own translation. The Saudi-paid translator of Sahih al-Bukhari (Muhammad Muhsin Khan) has shown pure dishonesty in translating the above tradition. His translation of the last portion of the tradition does not bear any similarity what so ever with the Arabic text of the tradition which is as follows:

كيف أنتم إذا نزل اْبنُ مريم فيكم و إمامكم منكم؟
Now let us look at the false translation of Mr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan:

Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 4.658

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur’an and not by the law of Gospel.

Mr. Muhsin Khan has trimmed the last part of the tradition which states that the Imam of Muslims (i.e., Imam al-Mahdi) is among Muslims when the son of marry descends. Instead, the translator has added another sentence which does not exists in the Arabic text. I should mention that this is not the only place that he has altered the text, and there are much more examples in this regard which proves his bias and his dishonesty.

Al-Hafidh Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali al-Shawkani (d. 1250/1834) wrote in a book called "al-Tawdhih fi twawatur ma jaa’a fil muntadar wad-djjal wal masih”(the explanation about the frequent reports concerning the Awaited one, the Dajjal, and the messiah) in which he wrote about Imam al-Mahdi (as) that: "The traditions about al-Mahdi have been related by numerous authorities and are therefor reliable beyond doubt or confusion, because in jurisprudence the qualification of Mutawatir is valid even for (traditions) with less than this number of narrations.

There are also many sayings of the companions (of the Prophet) which explicitly mention the Mahdi, which have the status of narrations from the Prophet since there is no question of establishing such saying through Ijtihad (one’s opinion and research)". The author gives the same opinion in his other book "al-Fat’h al-Rabbani". (In this connection see also Mawsu’atil Imam al-Mahdi, v1, pp 391-392,413-414,434, and also Tuhfatul Ahwadhi, v6, p485).

The author of the book, "Ghayah al-Ma’amool,”mentioned that: "It is a famous narration among the Scholars of the past and the present that there has to appear a man from the family of the Prophet (S) named al-Mahdi. In addition, the traditions about the Mahdi have been narrated by the most renowned companions of the Prophet (S), as well as by the most renowned scholars such as Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, al-Tabarani, Abu Ya’ala, al-Bazzar, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, and al-Hakim (May Allah be pleased with them all); furthermore, those who claim that the traditions narrated with regard to the appearance of the Mahdi are weak, are themselves in error."

Al-Saban in his book, "Is’af al-Raghibeen,”mentioned that: "The news about the appearance of the Mahdi are traceable back to the Prophet (S), and that he is one of the members of the family of the Prophet (S); and that he will fill the Earth with justice."

Al-Suwaydi in his book, "Saba’iq al-Dhahab,”reported that: "The scholars have a consensus that the Mahdi (as) will appear at the end of time and fill the Earth with justice; and the traditions supporting his appearance are indeed numerous."

al-Hafidh Abul-Hasan Muhammad Ibn al-Husayn al-Sijistani al-Aburi al-Shafi’i (d. 363/974) said: "The traditions were related by numerous authorities and were spread far and wide by many narrators, from al-Mustafa (S) concerning al-Mahdi who is from the household (of the Prophet) and who will fill the world with justice..”

This statement was accepted by the subsequent scholars as testified by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (See Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, v9, p144; Fat’h al-Bari, v7, p305), al-Qurtubi (al-Tathkirah, p617), al-Suyuti (al-Hawi, v2, pp 165-166), al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (al-Burhan fi Alamat Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman, pp 175-176), Ibn Hajar al-Haythami (al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, Ch. 11, section 1, p249), al-Zurqani (Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, v5, p348), al-Sakhawi (Fat’h al-Mugheeth, v3, p41), etc.

The best formulation of the belief of all Muslims about al-Mahdi (as) has been given by a person who himself did not believe in his coming and who denied the validity of the traditions concerning this matter. He was Ibn Khaldoon (d. 808/1406), a famous historian, in whose book, "al-Muqaddamah,”wrote:

"Let it be known that it is a narrated event by ALL Muslims in EVERY era that at the end of time a man from the family of the Prophet (S) will, without fail, make his appearance and will strengthen Islam and spread justice; Muslims will follow him and he will gain domination over the Muslim realm. He will be called al-Mahdi.”(An Introduction to History, by Ibn Khaldoon, English version, London, 1967 Edition, pp 257-258)

The above quote proves that even Ibn Khaldoon was in the opinion that the belief in Imam al-Mahdi was not a characteristic of a special sect of Islam, but was a common belief to ALL Muslims.

Sunni scholars openly criticized those elements (like Ibn Khaldoon) who tried to cast doubt the traditions about al-Mahdi (as), and have strongly asserted that the belief in Mahdi is well-established for ALL Muslims. See for instance: "Awnul Ma’bud”(which is the commentary of Sunan Abu Dawud), by al-Azimabadi, v11, pp 361-362, Tuhfatul Ahwadhi (which is the commentary of Sahih al-Tirmidhi), by al-Mubarakfuri, v6, p484, al-Tajul Jami’ lil Usul, by Shaikh Mansoor ‘Ali Nasif, v5, p341.

Shaikh Ahmad Muhammad Shakir (d. 1377/1958), one of the greatest contemporary scholar of Hadith and Tafsir, whose major work was his commentary on Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (for a biography of Ahmad Shakir, see al-Aalam, v1, p253; Mu’jam al-Mu’allifeen, v13, p368) wrote in his commentary: "Belief in al-Mahdi is not particular to the Shi’a because it is from the narration of many companions of the Prophet in such way that NO one can cast doubt the truth (of this belief).”After this, he proceeds to a strong refutation of Ibn Khaldoon’s weakening the traditions regarding al-Mahdi. (see Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal with commentary of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, Pub. by Dar al-Ma’arif, Egypt, v5, pp 196-198, v14, p288).

Al-Sayid Sabiq, the Mufti for the "Muslim Brotherhood,”in his book, "al- ‘Aqa’id al-Islamiyyah,”that: "The idea about the Mahdi is indeed valid, and is one of the Islamic tenets that one must believe in.”Mr. Sabiq also narrated a variety of traditions relating to the appearance of al-Mahdi (as) in the above book.

The recent Fatwa in this issue was given in Mecca by "The Muslim World League”(Rabitatul ‘Alamil Islami) on Oct. 11, 1976 (23 Shawwal 1396). This Fatwa states that more than twenty companions narrated traditions concerning al-Mahdi, and gives a list of those scholars of Hadith who have transmitted these narrations, and those who have written books on al-Mahdi. The Fatwa states:

"The memorizers (Huffadh) and scholars of Hadith have verified that there are authentic (Sahih) and acceptable (Hasan) reports among the traditions related to al-Mahdi. The majority of these traditions are related through numerous authorities (Mutawatir). There is no doubt that the status of those reports are Sahih and Mutawatir. (They have also verified) that the belief in Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is one of the beliefs of Ahlussunnah wal Jama’a. Only those ignorant of the Sunnah and innovators in doctrine deny it.

For the transcription and reproduction of this Fatwa, see, among others, the Introduction of al-Ganji al-Shafi’i, in the book named "al-Bayan,”Beirut, 1399/1979, pp 76-79 and in Appendix.

Two Shafi’i scholars, Ganji in his book "al-Bayan", and Shablanji in his book "Noor al-Absar", on the verse 48:28 of Qur’an: "He is the One who sent his Messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the true religion that in order to prevail over all the religions”narrated from Sa’id Ibn Jubair that "this promise to Prophet Muhammad will be fulfilled by al-Mahdi who is in the progeny of Fatimah (sa)."

Even Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728/1328), who is acclaimed by the Wahhabis, wrote in his book "Minhaj al-Sunnah”(v4, pp 211-212) that the traditions concerning the Mahdi are certainly reliable, and his student, al-Dhahabi, conformed with him in his summary of his teacher’s book. (See Mukhtasar Minhaj al-Sunnah, pp 533-534).

Among the Shi’a scholars, I would like to mention the masterpiece of Lutfullah al-Safi al-Golpaygani, who compiled an encyclopedia named "Muntakhab al-Athar". In this book, there is a comprehensive narration of the traditions regarding to the appearance of Imam al-Mahdi (as) and the description of the world before and after his appearance. He has used over 60 Sunni sources, including their six major book of Hadith; and over 90 Shi’ite sources to illuminate the fact that al-Mahdi is not a fabricated event.

As far as we have been able to discover, at least 35 prominent Sunni scholars have written 46 of books exclusively about Imam al-Mahdi (as), the leader of our time. Here are some of the name of some of these books:

(1) "Kitab al-Mahdi,”by Abu Dawud.
(2)"Alamat al-Mahdi,”by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti.
(3)"al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar,”by Ibn Hajar.

(4)"Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman,”by Allamah Abu Abdillah Ibn Muhammad Yusuf al-Ganji al-Shafi’i.
(5)"Iqd al-Durar fi Akbar al-Imam al-Muntadhar,”by Shaikh Jamaluddin Yusuf al-Damishqi.
(6)"Mahdi Aale Rasool,”by ‘Ali Ibn Sultan Muhammad al-Harawi al-Hanafi.
(7)"Manaqib al-Mahdi,”by al-Hafidh Abu Nu’aym al-Isbahani.
(8)"Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman,”by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi.
(9)"Arba’in Hadith fi al-Mahdi,”by Abdul Ala al-Hamadani.
(10)"Akhbar al-Mahdi,”by al-Hafidh Abu Nu’aym.

In conclusion, the belief in the coming Mahdi (as) who is a person other than Jesus (as), is an undeniable fact for the Sunnis. As we discussed above, the Sunni scholars affirm that belief in "Mahdi of the House of the Prophet”is one of the Islamic tenets for "Ahlussunnah wal Jama’a". In the next part, however, we will discuss the points of differences between the Shi’a and most Sunnis on the issue of Imam al-Mahdi.

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/sunni-documentation-imam-al-mahdi

 

[uberkoen]

Muawiyah was not writer of revelation

Narrated Anas:

`Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa`id bin Al-`As and `AbdurRahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of book in several copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons. " If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Qur'an, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Qur'an was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. (Sa`id bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish ).

( Bukhari 3505 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/61 )

Please don't twist the discussion. This Hadith relates to the re-writing of the Qur'an and not the writing of the revelation.

Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنهما) reported that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وسلّم) told him : " Go bring Muawya to Me ", because he wrote down Allah's Revelation (Wahy) for the Prophet [Recorded by Imam Ahmad 2651 , Dalail Al Nabuwwah of Behaqi vol 6 page 243 and verified to be authentic by Albani in Silsilat as-Saheehah 1-164 and Shaykh Zubair Ali Zai Authenticated and said Chain is Hasan in Majallah Al Hadith no: 29 page 5]

Muawiyah Made ijtehad or wanted kingdom

Narrated `Ikrima bin Khalid:

Ibn `Umar said, "I went to Hafsa while water was dribbling from her twined braids. I said, 'The condition of the people is as you see, and no authority has been given to me.' Hafsa said, (to me), 'Go to them, and as they (i.e. the people) are waiting for you, and I am afraid your absence from them will produce division amongst them.' " So Hafsa did not leave Ibn `Umar till we went to them. When the people differed. Muawiya addressed the people saying, "'If anybody wants to say anything in this matter of the Caliphate, he should show up and not conceal himself, for we are more rightful to be a Caliph than he and his father." On that, Habib bin Masalama said (to Ibn `Umar), "Why don't you reply to him (i.e. Muawiya)?" `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "I untied my garment that was going round my back and legs while I was sitting and was about to say, 'He who fought against you and against your father for the sake of Islam, is more rightful to be a Caliph,' but I was afraid that my statement might produce differences amongst the people and cause bloodshed, and my statement might be interpreted not as I intended. (So I kept quiet) remembering what Allah has prepared in the Gardens of Paradise (for those who are patient and prefer the Hereafter to this worldly life)." Habib said, "You did what kept you safe and secure (i.e. you were wise in doing so).

Allah says
(And whoever is killed wrongfully, We have given his heir the authority.) Surah alIsraa verse 33


Ibn Katheer commented
The great scholar and Imam Ibn `Abbas understood from the general meaning of this Ayah that Mu`awiyah should take power, because he was the heir of `Uthman, who had been killed wrongfully, may Allah be pleased with him, and Mu`awiyah did event- ually take power, as Ibn `Abbas said on the basis of this Ayah. This is one of the stranger of matters

The saying of Ibn Abbas ra is mentioned in Mojam al Kabeer Tabraani 10/320

Muawiyah using Gold and Silk

Khalid said:

Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib and a man of Banu Asad from the people of Qinnisrin went to Mu'awiyah ibn AbuSufyan.
Mu'awiyah said to al-Miqdam: Do you know that al-Hasan ibn Ali has died? Al-Miqdam recited the Qur'anic verse "We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return."
A man asked him: Do you think it a calamity? He replied: Why should I not consider it a calamity when it is a fact that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used to take him on his lap, saying: This belongs to me and Husayn belongs to Ali?
The man of Banu Asad said: (He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished. Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike. He then said: Mu'awiyah, if I speak the truth, declare me true, and if I tell a lie, declare me false.
He said: Do so. He said: I adjure you by Allah, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbidding use to wear gold?
He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) prohibited the wearing of silk?
He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) prohibited the wearing of the skins of beasts of prey and riding on them?
He said: Yes. He said: I swear by Allah, I saw all this in your house, O Mu'awiyah.
Mu'awiyah said: I know that I cannot be saved from you, O Miqdam.
Khalid said: Mu'awiyah then ordered to give him what he did not order to give to his two companions, and gave a stipend of two hundred (dirhams) to his son. Al-Miqdam then divided it among his companions, and the man of Banu Asad did not give anything to anyone from the property he received. When Mu'awiyah was informed about it, he said: Al-Miqdam is a generous man; he has an open hand (for generosity). The man of Banu Asad withholds his things in a good manner.

"It was transmitted by imam Bukhari in his "Tareeh al-kabir" (5/240) via authentic chain: From Abu Musakhar, it was reported to me by Sayed ibn Abdulaziz from Rabi`ee ibn Yazid from (companion Abdurrahman) ibn Abu Umeyrat, which said: Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) said about Muawiyah: "Allah, make him (Muawiya :ra: ) guided, a guider, and guide people through him".[Ahadeth an-nabawiya fi fadhail Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan]

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika: Somebody said to Ibn 'Abbas, "Can you speak to the chief of the believers Muwaiya, as he does not pray except one Rak'a as Witr?" Ibn 'Abbas replied, "He is a faqih (i.e. a learned man who can give religious verdicts) .[Bukhari Book #57, Hadith #109]





I'd like to end my post with this:

'Abdullah bin Mughaffal al-Muzani: The Prophet (SAWS) said: "Fear Allah with respect to my companions. Do not be disrespectful towards them after me. Remember that whoever loves them, loves me and whoever holds malice against them, holds malice against me, and he who hurts them has hurt me, and he who hurts me has hurt Allah the glorious, and he who hurts Allah then he will take him soon."

And Allah said in his book:

{And as for those who came after them, they say, 'Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers, who preceded us in faith, and put Thou not into our hearts any resentment towards those who believe. Our Lord, surely Thou art the All-gentle, the All-compassionate.'} [Quran 59:10]

And in the hadith from ibn 'Abbas (ra):

"Do not abuse the companions of Muhammad (SAWS), for Allah has ordered that we ask him to forgive them and he knew that they were going to fight among each-other."

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

Brother I have seen your post , and Insha Allah reply to them tomorrow.

Also , that hadeeth of Prophet making dua for Muawiyah is in Tirmidi also. I am really surprised that even though I mentioned That there are strong objections to that , still you just pasted it. Nevertheless I will answer that in a seperate post.

I

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

One more thing . I showed you hadeeth regarding Muawiyah using gold amd silk and you replied showing me hadeeth that he is faqih. In my hadeeth it clearly says that accepts those are prohibited.

So you want to say Muawiyah made ijtehad and made haram as halal?

Is that your logic ?

 

[speed]

This is completely wrong. I will reply with further proof later. In fact, i'll forward this to Ayatollah Sistani himself, so you will have a personal response with proofs from him.

I have heard that 12lever shia belive that the Quran is created? Ask ayatollah Sistani about this issue.

 

[uberkoen]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

Brother I have seen your post , and Insha Allah reply to them tomorrow.

Also , that hadeeth of Prophet making dua for Muawiyah is in Tirmidi also. I am really surprised that even though I mentioned That there are strong objections to that , still you just pasted it. Nevertheless I will answer that in a seperate post.

I

There are objections for the Hadeeth you posted as well.

My purpose of posting those Hadith was not as a reply but to show you a different side of the story.To show that there are Hadith which also point out his virtues.

Allah knows best.

However, the point I have been trying to make from the beginning and the point I made through my post was about respecting the Prophet's companions. Who are we to judge them? This is what I have been saying all along.

 

[hussain.r97]

I have heard that 12lever shia belive that the Quran is created? Ask ayatollah Sistani about this issue.

What do you mean by created? We believe the same thing as Sunni's. The Quran was revealed to the Prophet (pbuh)

 

[hussain.r97]

There are objections for the Hadeeth you posted as well.

My purpose of posting those Hadith was not as a reply but to show you a different side of the story.To show that there are Hadith which also point out his virtues.

Allah knows best.

However, the point I have been trying to make from the beginning and the point I made through my post was about respecting the Prophet's companions. Who are we to judge them? This is what I have been saying all along.

That is true. However, when there is enough proof and evidence, it doesn't remain a judgement. It turns into a fact and knowledge. Don't you think so?

 

[Justcrazy]

Please don't twist the discussion. This Hadith relates to the re-writing of the Qur'an and not the writing of the revelation.

Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنهما) reported that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وسلّم) told him : " Go bring Muawya to Me ", because he wrote down Allah's Revelation (Wahy) for the Prophet [Recorded by Imam Ahmad 2651 , Dalail Al Nabuwwah of Behaqi vol 6 page 243 and verified to be authentic by Albani in Silsilat as-Saheehah 1-164 and Shaykh Zubair Ali Zai Authenticated and said Chain is Hasan in Majallah Al Hadith no: 29 page 5]

I have not twisted any facts. The hadeeth I quoted was when Uthman RA collected the quran again . If Ameer Muawiyah was was writer of revelations , he would have been called to write.

“According to Madaini the writer of the revelation was Zaid bin Thabit and Muawiyah used to write for Prophet (s) the letters between Him (s) and the Arabs”.

( al Isaba’ Volume 6 page 121 / Imam hajar Asqalani )

that Anas bin Malik said: "Four gathered the Qur'an during the time of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), all of them are from the Ansar: Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid." I said to Anas: "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said: "One of my uncles

( Tirmidhi 3794 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49 )


Muawiyah wrote documents is clear from the following hadeeth.

Narrated Sahl ibn Hanzaliyyah:

Uyaynah ibn Hisn and Aqra' ibn Habis came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). They begged from him. He commanded to give them what they begged. He ordered Mu'awiyah to write a document to give what they begged. Aqra' took his document, wrapped it in his turban, and went away.
As for Uyaynah, he took his document and came to the Prophet (ﷺ) at his home, and said to him: Muhammad, do you see me? I am taking a document to my people, but I do not know what it contains, just like the document of al-Mutalammis. Mu'awiyah informed the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) of his statement.
Thereupon the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: He who begs (from people) when he has sufficient is simply asking for a large amount of Hell-fire. (An-Nufayl (a transmitter) said elsewhere: "embers of Hell".)
They asked: Messenger of Allah, what is a sufficiency? (Elsewhere an-Nufayl said: What is a sufficiency which makes begging unfitting?)
He replied: It is that which would provide a morning and an evening meal. (Elsewhere an-Nufayl said: It is when one has enough for a day and night, or for a night and a day.) He (an-Nufayl) narrated to us this tradition briefly in the words that I have mentioned.

( Abu Dawood 1629 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/9/74 )

Allah says
(And whoever is killed wrongfully, We have given his heir the authority.) Surah alIsraa verse 33


Ibn Katheer commented
The great scholar and Imam Ibn `Abbas understood from the general meaning of this Ayah that Mu`awiyah should take power, because he was the heir of `Uthman, who had been killed wrongfully, may Allah be pleased with him, and Mu`awiyah did event- ually take power, as Ibn `Abbas said on the basis of this Ayah. This is one of the stranger of matters

The saying of Ibn Abbas ra is mentioned in Mojam al Kabeer Tabraani 10/320

In that case Ibn Umar should have taken over khilafat after the murder of Umar RA. You fail to see That Ali RA was chosen as Khalifa by people of Medina , and a Khalifa is bound to be obeyed.

The people of Mecca after the conquest had no authority to rule , because the badr and sabiqoon sahabas were alive.

"It was transmitted by imam Bukhari in his "Tareeh al-kabir" (5/240) via authentic chain: From Abu Musakhar, it was reported to me by Sayed ibn Abdulaziz from Rabi`ee ibn Yazid from (companion Abdurrahman) ibn Abu Umeyrat, which said: Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) said about Muawiyah: "Allah, make him (Muawiya :ra: ) guided, a guider, and guide people through him".[Ahadeth an-nabawiya fi fadhail Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan]

Prophet making a dua is not a gaurantee , there are instances when prophet made dua but was not accepted. Moreover Prophet made similar dua for Mushriks , does that mean that is one of the virtues of Mushriks also?

Most importantly this narrator Abdurrahman , full name is Abdul Rehman Bin abi Umaira. His being a companion is not absolutely proved. That makes the chain doubtful.

That is why Imam Mubarakpuri has criticized this Hadeeth in his commentary. ( Tufhatul Ahwazi )

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika: Somebody said to Ibn 'Abbas, "Can you speak to the chief of the believers Muwaiya, as he does not pray except one Rak'a as Witr?" Ibn 'Abbas replied, "He is a faqih (i.e. a learned man who can give religious verdicts) .[Bukhari Book #57, Hadith #109]

Ibn Abbas RA himself was in favour of 3 rakkat witr. That time Muawiyah was already a Monarch. What could Ibn Abbas say ? Contradict Muawiyah and get punished?

Secondly I already showed above the hadeeth where Muawiyah was wearing Gold and Silk , that showed the level of ijtehad he had. I show you another hadeeth , how great was faqih Muawiyah was


Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from Ata ibn Yasar that Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan sold a gold or silver drinking- vessel for more than its weight. Abu'dDarda said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbidding such sales except like for like." Muawiya said to him, "I don't see any harm in it." Abu'd-Darda said to him, "Who will excuse me from Muawiya? I tell him something from the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he gives me his own opinion! I will not live in the same land as you!" Then Abu'd-Darda went to Umar ibn al-Khattab and mentioned that to him. Umar ibn al-Khattab therefore wrote to Muawiya, "Do not sell it except like for like, weight for weight."

( Muwatta Malik , Book 31 , Hadeeth 33 ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/malik/31 )

I'd like to end my post with this:

'Abdullah bin Mughaffal al-Muzani: The Prophet (SAWS) said: "Fear Allah with respect to my companions. Do not be disrespectful towards them after me. Remember that whoever loves them, loves me and whoever holds malice against them, holds malice against me, and he who hurts them has hurt me, and he who hurts me has hurt Allah the glorious, and he who hurts Allah then he will take him soon."

And Allah said in his book:

{And as for those who came after them, they say, 'Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers, who preceded us in faith, and put Thou not into our hearts any resentment towards those who believe. Our Lord, surely Thou art the All-gentle, the All-compassionate.'} [Quran 59:10]

And in the hadith from ibn 'Abbas (ra):

"Do not abuse the companions of Muhammad (SAWS), for Allah has ordered that we ask him to forgive them and he knew that they were going to fight among each-other."

Firsly , show me any post where I abused any Companion .

Secondly , can you define the term companions?

Thirdly , what about companions who abused other companions ?

 

[speed]

What do you mean by created? We believe the same thing as Sunni's. The Quran was revealed to the Prophet (pbuh)

Sunnis believe that the Quran is the uncreated word of Allah, in that sense what is the twelver belief?

 

[Justcrazy]

There are objections for the Hadeeth you posted as well.

My purpose of posting those Hadith was not as a reply but to show you a different side of the story.To show that there are Hadith which also point out his virtues.

Allah knows best.

However, the point I have been trying to make from the beginning and the point I made through my post was about respecting the Prophet's companions. Who are we to judge them? This is what I have been saying all along.

There are No objections to the hadeeth that I posted. It has been checked ny Zubair Ali zai himself. No Muhaddith had any issues with that hadeeth.

Moreover there is another version of that Hadeeth in bayhaqi , but I did not use that because its even worse for Ameer Muawiyah.

There is no other side of story.

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abd al-Rahman b. Abd Rabb al-Ka'ba who said:

I entered the mosque when 'Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-'As was sitting in the shade of the Ka'ba and the people had gathered around him. I betook myself to them and sat near him. (Now) Abdullah said: I accompanied the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) on a journey. We halted at a place. Some of us began to set right their tents, others began to compete with one another in shooting, and others began to graze their beasts, when an announcer of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) announced that the people should gather together for prayer, so we gathered around the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He said: It was the duty of every Prophet that has gone before me to guide his followers to what he knew was good for them and warn them against what he knew was bad for them; but this Umma of yours has its days of peace and (security) in the beginning of its career, and in the last phase of its existence it will be afflicted with trials and with things disagreeable to you. (In this phase of the Umma), there will be tremendous trials one after the other, each making the previous one dwindle into insignificance. When they would be afflicted with a trial, the believer would say: This is going to bring about my destruction. When at (the trial) is over, they would be afflicted with another trial, and the believer would say: This surely is going to be my end. Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and enter the garden should die with faith in Allah and the Last Day and should treat the people as he wishes to be treated by them. He who swears allegiance to a Caliph should give him the piedge of his hand and the sincerity of his heart (i. e. submit to him both outwardly as well as inwardly). He should obey him to the best of his capacity. It another man comes forward (as a claimant to Caliphate), disputing his authority, they (the Muslims) should behead the latter. The narrator says: I came close to him ('Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-'As) and said to him: Can you say on oath that you heard it from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)? He pointed with his hands to his ears and his heart and said: My ears heard it and my mind retained it. I said to him: This cousin of yours, Mu'awiya, orders us to unjustly consume our wealth among ourselves and to kill one another, while Allah says:" O ye who believe, do not consume your wealth among yourselves unjustly, unless it be trade based on mutual agreement, and do not kill yourselves. Verily, God is Merciful to you" (iv. 29). The narrator says that (hearing this) Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-As kept quiet for a while and then said: Obey him in so far as he is obedient to God; and disobey him in matters involving disobedience to God.

( Muslim 1844 A ) ( http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/33 )

Is there doubt on this Hadeeth also ?

We cannot judge anyone in matters of hell and heaven . But Allah swt has given us authority to judge in terms of the world. Otherwise , why Punish a killer or a thief etc , leave that to Allah swt.

Companions are respected because the deeds they did. I consider Muawiyah as a Muslim , but he did great Damage to Islam.

There are many other things regarding Muawiyah , that is why I said the lesser we speak the better.

The issue is that a lot of Mullahs just because of being against shia try and hide these facts under the cloak of love of companions. Was Ali RA not a companion ? We as sunnis need to speak against this nasbi propaganda.

 

[Justcrazy]

Sunnis believe that the Quran is the uncreated word of Allah, in that sense what is the twelver belief?

I think Mutazillas belived that Quran was created , that was time of Imam hanbal RA .

 

[speed]

I think Mutazillas belived that Quran was created , that was time of Imam hanbal RA .

I heard that this belief is also there in the twelver books.

 

[Justcrazy]

I heard that this belief is also there in the twelver books.

Maybe I have no idea.

But the thing is that we need to separate books with beliefs of laymen.

The main culprits are generally scholars who misguide people, lay men cannot be blamed for that.

 

[*syed59*]

The whole twelwer thing and all men should be from Quraysh is a fabrication made by Shias. Clearly. Its contradicting the main theme of Islam and Holy Quran.

Hadiths and hence foresight of 12 successors are stated clearly in both Sunni and Shia texts. It is in complete alignment to the perfect system of deliverance of divine guidance to mankind, by God.

What is not in sync with Islam and Holy Quran, is the man made bayt, system. Wherein, people overtake self proclaimed authority and force people to acknowledge their authority, obey their orders and killed if they don't. All in the name of Islam. In reality , all for the sake of power, money and lust.

Something which started 14 centuries ago, immediately after the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP) during the reign of first self installed Caliphs, saw its worst example in Karbala(where Prophets Grandson, Hussain(a.s) and his companions were brutally murdered and his family taken captives and put in prison), and is now continuing in the form of ISIS or ISIL whatever it is.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

WAIT.

Before you continue the discussion, tell me who are Shias, Ahmedis and Sunnis here.

I know Hussain is Shia and PennOne is Ahmedi and majority of others are Sunnis.

 

[Justcrazy]

WAIT.

Before you continue the discussion, tell me who are Shias, Ahmedis and Sunnis here.

I know Hussain is Shia and PennOne is Ahmedi and majority of others are Sunnis.

I am Honest Sunni

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am Honest Sunni

Thanks. Others?

 

[shaykh]

WAIT.

Before you continue the discussion, tell me who are Shias, Ahmedis and Sunnis here.

I know Hussain is Shia and PennOne is Ahmedi and majority of others are Sunnis.

PennOne is Ahmedi?...that explains the nonsense he was posting in the other thread...people should mention these things as disclaimer before they engage in debate....

This has been a fascinating thread as it happens...some respectful discussion between both sects...

As for myself...if it wasn't known already...im a murtad who when discussing Islam discusses from the Sunni perspective...

 

[Justcrazy]

I am Honest Sunni

Only a poll can answer that .

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

PennOne is Ahmedi?...that explains the nonsense he was posting in the other thread...people should mention these things as disclaimer before they engage in debate....

This has been a fascinating thread as it happens...some respectful discussion between both sects...

As for myself...if it wasn't known already...im a murtad who when discussing Islam discusses from the Sunni perspective...

I know about you mate. Atheist who was a Sunni Muslim before. I like your posts about variety of topics (they are thought provoking and interesting).

This thread is sooo advanced for me that most of the info goes over my head. I am trying to skim stuff and a person's sect affiliation would help me understand the context better.

 

[Nostalgic]

I am Honest Sunni

I'm a dishonest Sunni.

 

[shaykh]

I know about you mate. Atheist who was a Sunni Muslim before. I like your posts about variety of topics (they are thought provoking and interesting).

This thread is sooo advanced for me that most of the info goes over my head. I am trying to skim stuff and a person's sect affiliation would help me understand the context better.

Thanks for the kind words ...not an atheist though...haven't quite ruled out the possibility of a sadistic God ...

I am also learning...especially about the Shia perspective of which im not well versed...so i can imagine it must be confusing...

But in short in terms of doctrine the differences are significant...

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Thanks for the kind words ...not an atheist though...haven't quite ruled out the possibility of a sadistic God ...

I am also learning...especially about the Shia perspective of which im not well versed...so i can imagine it must be confusing...

But in short in terms of doctrine the differences are significant...

3 years on. Where do you stand?

 

[Justcrazy]

But why is there so much enmity that one clan wants to finish off the other? All I know is that Shias (or is it Ahmedis?) believe that there's one more prophet to come (Please correct me if I'm wrong). But still respect Prophet Mohammad. Why such hatred?

There is no hatred .

The problem is that if you believe someone else to be a prophet after Muhammad SAW , you accept that you are on a different religion , do not use the platform and resource of Islam. Do not misguide people. You are free to believe whatever you want to , but not allowed to fool people .

 

[Eagle_Eye]

3 years on. Where do you stand?

There might be more than one person behind that username .....

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I can see a lot of misinformation being spread here about Shias therefore I'm recommending below 2 sites which are authentic and any arguments presented from these sites will be fully accepted by me and Shias, in general.

www.al-islam.org
www.sistani.org

Questions can also be asked from Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani (one of the foremost authorities in Shia school of thought) on sistani.org