Reasons behind India's superior batting over Pakistan since 2003

[Savak]

It was in that 2003 WC game where India turned the tide against Pakistan and got their final revenge against the side of the 80's and 90's. I believe both teams were generally at par batting wise from the 70's to 90's but from 2003 onwards we saw the previous feeble players like Dravid and Laxman grow in confidence and reverse their poor records against Pakistan. The team no longer depended on Tendulkar and Ganguly

From 2003 onwards India has produced the following batsmen

Yuvraj Singh

Virender Sehwag

Muhammad Kaif

M S Dhoni

Virat Kohli

Rohit Sharma

Shikhar Dhawan

And now the Indians have the likes of Prithvi Shaw, K L Rahul as well

Pakistan in comparison in 2003 heavily depended on Inzamam, Yousaf and Younis who can be called the last great batsmen the country produced and Younis was a complete failure in ODI's and T-20's.

We have had the likes of Misbah ul Haq, Salman Butt, Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq, Umar Akmal, Babar Azam come through the wings who were proper batsmen but obviously not as great as their Indian Counterparts. Then we depended on bits and pieces cricketers like Shahid Afridi, Kamran Akmal, Abdul Razzaq, Shoaib Malik, Muhammad Hafeez.

The first question i would like everyone to debate on is what are the factors which has led to this massive gap between the Indian and Pakistani batting line up, what are the factors that can be highlighted

1) The excellent batting pitches in Indian domestic cricket where batsmen enjoy full pace on the bat and develop the confidence to play their shots everywhere

2) Excellent coaching programs, superior training facilities, practice facilities for batsmen

3) Excellent exposure to the IPL where players are pressurized to get to another level if they want the big bucks and match the world class westerners

4) Just Superior talent coming through in comparison to Pakistan

5) Reaping benefits of BCCI's first world type wealth

We keep hearing about the PCB organizing a fast bowling camp, spin bowling camp but what about a batting camp. Does any one in the PCB even acknowledge and understand that Pakistan is facing a severe batting emergency?

What are the factors that can explain Pakistan's decline in batting fortunes?

1) Just a simple talent drought that every cricketing nation has to struggle with at one point in time

2) Abscence of international cricket in Pakistan which has meant a complete neglect of stadiums, domestic pitches, dwindling of PCB finances, lack of investment in infrastructure

3) Pathetic slow low bounce medium pace bowling friendly domestic pitches which mean the batsmen coming get into terribly bad habits and are always just looking to survive, block most deliveries, not rotate the strike

4) Non - stop playing on the slow wickets of the UAE which has hurt Pakistan's batting in the long run

5) Ex legends not bothering to give anything back to the country

6) The current crop of national cricket team players do not work hard enough as compared to the rest of the world and their predecessors.

7) Lack of IPL exposure

Let me know if anyone has other explanations or theories

 

[Suleiman]

There's no theory dude. One has a professional set-up, the other doesn't. It's not like the 70s-80s anymore, every major sport around the world now has a professional set-up to groom talent. It's an industry like any other. Pakistan doesn't.

Look at the U19 final in 2006 where Rohit, Jadeja played vs Sarfraz and Anwar Ali and the likes. Now there's a gulf of difference between them in terms of performance.

You can bank on "natural talent" for only so long.

 

[Tusker]

Just too many mega batting legends to look upto. Therefore every kid wants to be a Tendulkar, Dravid, MSD , Kohli etc.

 

[pillionrider]

At least 5 of the names mentioned in the OP were total Sachin bhakts and tried to replicate him during their junior years. Some of them had only one goal in life - to bat with him one day.

 

[Savak]

Just too many mega batting legends to look upto. Therefore every kid wants to be a Tendulkar, Dravid, MSD , Kohli etc.

At least 5 of the names mentioned in the OP were total Sachin bhakts and tried to replicate him during their junior years. Some of them had only one goal in life - to bat with him one day.

This is definately an explanation, ask any kid on the street and they will say they want to bowl like Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib or be the next Afridi.

No one will say we want to be the next Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Inzamam, Yousaf, Younis e.t.c. Huge difference in culture and thinking of both nations.

 

[Rightarmfast]

This is definately an explanation, ask any kid on the street and they will say they want to bowl like Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib or be the next Afridi.

No one will say we want to be the next Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Inzamam, Yousaf, Younis e.t.c. Huge difference in culture and thinking of both nations.

The only difference now is, even the Indian youngsters want to bowl fast like Shoaib and swing like Wasim. Its not like all the kids are wanting to be batsmen in India anymore. And hence, we have a new bowling culture which is being developed. You can see that in India's pace battery as well as the reserve.

 

[Mp812]

There's no theory dude. One has a professional set-up, the other doesn't. It's not like the 70s-80s anymore, every major sport around the world now has a professional set-up to groom talent. It's an industry like any other. Pakistan doesn't.

Look at the U19 final in 2006 where Rohit, Jadeja played vs Sarfraz and Anwar Ali and the likes. Now there's a gulf of difference between them in terms of performance.

You can bank on "natural talent" for only so long.

Yes compare that 2006 final to 2018 SF of u19 world cup where Indian fast bowlers took all 10 Pakistani u19 wickets for 56 runs. Times change

 

[freak_virat]

Hehehe , His bowling makes Pakistani batsmen looks like club level batsmen.

 

[ads101]

A lot of the guys dominating Pakistani domestic aren't great technique or footwork. But I've always wondered, maybe the way they play is ideal to those pitches. They've adapted to that.

For example Fawad's style of play might be what is the most effective on those pitches which is why he's learnt and grown to play like that. Topping domestic charts year after year can't be a fluke, Fawad must be doing something right.

Which is why maybe the "flashy batsmen" of our in domestic average less. It's got nothing to do with their better ability, more to do with their inability to fully adapt their technique to the pitches. Their technique is textbook but they can't mold it to the pitches. Hence they're not the top performers in domestic, nor can they do well in internationals (as struggle to adapt to pitches there too).

It also might suggest that had the pitches been different, guys like Fawad might have better adapted to the pitches and we'd be lauding his technique/footwork.

One thing which particularly feels like an issue is lack of innings construction. Even average older players like Malik and Hafeez, they can work themselves in then look to accelerate. Even though they are still worse than our younger players e.g. Babar.

A lot of the younger Pak players can't do that. They arguably have better techniques, better proficiency against pace. They are often better at staying in early on their innings than Malik or Hafeez. But they struggle to accelerate the scoring, or they look to slog early. They're very one dimensional batsmen. Which is strange, I'm not sure why the younger bats are turning out like that. It's like they can do the hard parts, but miss out on the easy parts in terms of milking part timers/spinners, rotating strike, which is where both Malik and Hafeez rely on getting the bulk of their runs, knowing they aren't going to get them against the main pacers.

 

[BreadPakoda]

The only difference now is, even the Indian youngsters want to bowl fast like Shoaib and swing like Wasim. Its not like all the kids are wanting to be batsmen in India anymore. And hence, we have a new bowling culture which is being developed. You can see that in India's pace battery as well as the reserve.

Which pace bowling culture and reserves are you talking about? In LOIs we don’t have a single reliable pace bowler except Bumrah.

 

[RamLakhan]

Which pace bowling culture and reserves are you talking about? In LOIs we don’t have a single reliable pace bowler except Bumrah.

We have definitely improved in Tests! Future may look good even for LOIs... It takes time

 

[Ahmed216]

Money invested into cricket post economic reforms in 1991

 

[cricketindiafan]

Can we credit 'that' shot in 2003 at Durban?

 

[MenInG]

Post sense in this thread or get banned.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Which pace bowling culture and reserves are you talking about? In LOIs we don’t have a single reliable pace bowler except Bumrah.

Earlier we didn't even have Bumrah
No other Indian pacer in the past was as good as Bumrah in Odis who is World's best
BTW,Bhuvi is good in t20is,he is poor only in Odis



In tests Shami,Bumrah,Bhuvi,Ishant are all good pacers compared to today's standards


There is pace bowling culture delveoping in states like Delhi-UP-Rajasthan and also down South in Kerala
We have seen what our young guns are capable of at the u-19 level
Mavi & Nagarkoti were among the fastest and also the best pacers in the tournament

We weren't even a strong batting side in the past
So it will take some time for us to be world's best(or close to that) in pace bowling department

 

[ind_win]

It is not true India Vs Pak have been even steven till 2003. In fact, several phases existed thus far.
Ind had upper hand from 1980-1986 till sharjah happened- the team of bits and pieces players over achieved.
Pak had upper hand till 1998 (better team composition+mental edge+the controversial umpiring sans non-neutral umpires issue including) till 1998
The dhaka chase of 320+ - the famous last hit of kanitkar - brought self-confidence into Indian team.
Till then it was the lone warrior Sachin who was fearless against some threatening bowling of Pak.
And from 1998-2003 it was even-steven post which it is India mostly.

Most may not agree or not agree with the above, I stand by what I observed over time between the two sides.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Which pace bowling culture and reserves are you talking about? In LOIs we don’t have a single reliable pace bowler except Bumrah.

Start following INdian cricket, you will know. Cheers

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Politics. The politics in PCB wouldn’t allow the existence of out of the box thinkers, the ones who defy the norms. The case of Younis Khan is an example for everyone. PCB wouldn’t assign him with the Under19 setup because he isn’t their typical yes man who would put all the blunders committed by the PCB under the carpet. India on the other hand has Dravid overseeing the progress of the under 19 boys.
Moreover, BCCI have a clear pathway for its junior cricketers. They youngsters know that if they perform well at the under 19 level then an IPL contract isn’t far away. Pakistani youngsters, on the other hand, don’t have that clarity. Players who have performed relatively well at national under 19 levels are ignored for PSL and the franchises have increasingly adopted to run their own talent hunts. While their work is commendable, the franchises have killed the incentives for the under 19 players to develop proper techniques. This is obviously not to say that things were any better before the PSL.
Another major reason is the lack of batting culture in Pakistan. I know that it has become a cliche to say that India has the batting culture but it’s a cliche for a reason. A person who have scored 10000 runs in test or ODI cricket has probably more experience of battling it out for the longer time on difficult wickets against quality pace and spin attacks. A person with lesser amount probably doesn’t have as extensive knowledge of such situations.
More importantly, it boils down to the system and infrastructure of a country. India has had world class coaches working in their cricket academy while we know what Steve Rickson said about our coaching setup. India has more organised school cricket and the overall domestic cricket. The fact that they have more school going children, proportionately, as compared to Pakistan means that their school cricket can provide more opportunities for those growing up to play cricket and fulfill their dreams.
Another important aspect of their player development is the autonomy of regions. In our system, PCB will never let an autonomous system of regions to grow. It’s just a nuisance for the political appointees in the board. They want rubber stamp BoGs to bow down and cater their whimsical decisions. The regions don’t feel the need to develop players because they don’t have that marketability aspect associated to their modus operandi. Mumbai cricket has Rohit Sharma, Ajinkya Rahanay, Prithvi Shaw, etc to show for as a form marketable products. What does Karachi region has to show for? Khurram Manzoor?
The situation is very sad and I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

Go ahead man. Say your part. Will listen with open mind.

 

[The Viper]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

Go on Bhaijaan sahib.

 

[captain.hansolo]

I think the answer to this question must also address fitness: with better diets and fitness regimes, the athleticism of Indian batsmen has improved and since playing cricket is now a full time occupation, with the emphasis on fitness at an all time high.

Skills developed are thus sharpened and the volume of cricket played is also high, this gives confidence and helps improve execution.

 

[sjahmed23]

For me it's like how in the country everything is run by ad hocism, in cricket it's the same. We rely on individuals to bail us out and don't put enough faith and focus on the system. Indians have created a machine like system that will churn out stars for many years to come especially with the likes of Kohli constantly elevating standards.

 

[Markhor]

What's eye-opening is the poise and confidence these young Indian batsmen have. Prithvi Shaw on Test debut played with a self-assuredness and fearlessness I wouldn't see even in a senior Pakistani batsman. He looked ready for international cricket from day one which tells me about the quality of school and junior cricket in India, and the standards of coaching, whereas our Pakistani youngsters look so raw when they start out. Sahibzada Farhan was a bag of nerves the other night v Aus with several technical issues apparent. Hussain Talat was hyped as a dynamic batsman yet can't hit boundaries if his life depended on it. When you compare our guys to the young Indian batsmen in terms range of shots, the batting intelligence and mental strength, they are in a different league.

I think what's also different is the insanely high levels of competition with India. A population of over 1 billion cricket crazed fans means there's a huge pool of talent. If you are even to be on the radar of the national selectors you need to be damn good, and to keep your place in the squad you need to work damn hard otherwise there are millions knocking on the door ready to take your place.

In Pakistan however I feel it's easy for mediocre players to coast. The domestic teams remain largely unchanged every year with guys like Salman Butt, Imran Farhat and Kamran Akmal who started out in the early 2000s STILL playing - the first two are captains no less. So many players from U19 cricket get lost in the system as these seniors don't want to groom youngsters who may take their spot. There's no proper oversight or accountability from the Board or the regions who are riddled with corrruption and politics, or departments for whom cricket is just another asset in their portfolio. The quality of FC cricket itself is abject with several teams no better than club level, with the standard of batsmanship getting worse. Last season there were EIGHT sub-100 totals.

Another factor is that Indian pitches are ideal for gaining experience of building a long innings. Batting is a skill that requires many long hours at the crease to perfect in order to improve your muscle memory and temperament - and you can do that on these Indian wickets that possess good carry and pace, ideal for strokeplay. It's not surprising we hear stories of schoolkids breaking run scoring records and smashing double hundreds. However in Pakistan on damp, underprepared, green FC wickets - the matches become a lottery. Batsmen are preoccupied with survival hence why we've a generation of limited Azhar Ali-esque (with all respect to Azhar) players who struggle in One Day cricket where they need to bat at a quicker pace. Nor do you get experience of constructing long innings - hence why I don't think we'll see anyone as prolific as scoring 150/200+ scores like Younis Khan anymore.

Finally, the IPL definitely has helped prepare young Indian batsmen in giving them experience of playing in front of packed houses and in pressure situations. The PSL will help us in this regard but India have a 8 year headstart over us, and the quality of batsmanship in the three editions of PSL so far have been mediocre.

 

[TQ89]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

Go ahead. I am willing to read what you have to say on this matter.

 

[giri26]

India always had a batting culture and now with good infrastructure and coaches, India are just reaping the benefits. The biggest change in the Indian system is the bowling. I am happy that over the last few years the bowlers have not fallen away like earlier. People like Shami, Bumrah, Ishant and Bhuvi are still playing and taking wickets.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Start following INdian cricket, you will know. Cheers

Stop living in la la land and you would know.

 

[babajee]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

Go for it bro.

 

[CricFan2012]

The answer is bit harsh. I will post in detail if at least 5 Pakistanis confirm to their Bhaijaan they’re up for listening to the bitter truth and would not feel offended or sad or both.

I have huge regard for Pakistan as a country and Pakistanis in generally. I would never want to hurt feelings of people I admire and care for.

lets see

 

[Rightarmfast]

Stop living in la la land and you would know.

watch cricket. It will help.

 

[Savak]

Lol at people falling for freelance_Cricketers click bait post. I can bet the bottom dollar there will be nothing earth shattering in his post

 

[EliteCynical]

Can we credit 'that' shot in 2003 at Durban?

If you are talking about the upper cut, it was Centurion!

 

[EliteCynical]

So thinking about this from a neutral perspective, why are Pakistani young batters not visibly more skilled/talented than their indian counterparts when they start off (at least that is what is being claimed). Apart from the usual rhetoric of competition due to 1 Billion, IPL etc., I think the following factors may be huge factors

1. Batting is no longer all about natural talent. Natural talent can only take you so far, beyond which one has to put in hard yards at practice. Back in the day, a batsman like Basit Ali came through the ranks possessing jaw dropping natural talent which may not serve him well in the current set up. Bowlers are smarter, fielders are fitter and unless you have 2 or 3 gears, it would be hard to make a similar impact.

2. Technique and coaching at grass roots go hand in hand. Who are the coaches at grass root level in Pakistan? I know Vengsarkar runs an academy in Mumbai, so dies Mohinder Amarnath, WV Raman is the coach of U19, Dravid handles U19 and A teams. So, any chink in the armor is fixed at grass root level, so by the time the player is at international level, technique is sorted, it is the temperament and adaptability which matter. Now if say, Basit Ali, is coaching t grass root level in Pakistan, and a youngster coming through the ranks, shows chinks in technique at highest level, then there may be certain aspects which he wouldn't be able to address (no disrespect to Basit, great hundred at Sharjah v WI).

3. Money - Yes, the root of all evil. Pakistanis fighting a case for breach of MoU and is hoping to get some money. Where is the money coming into Pakistan cricket right now? Is there enough of it handed to grass root level?
- Are coaches getting international accreditation
- Are pitches and grounds meeting international standards (see next point reg FC cricket)
- Is there a proper Academy with world class facilities? Im pretty sure there is, but is it doing enough?

3. Let us deep dive into FC Cricket in Pakistan for a bit- So, with little research, i was able to understand that the Quaid-e-Azam trophy needs some serious look in. Here are some of the stats from 2017/18 season

a. Average First innings score 235 (lowest among all countries). India is at 344
b. Runs per wicket 22.6 - lowest in many decades
c. 38 year old Aizaz Cheema has a bowling average of 9.61
d. Saad Ali - only batsman with 500+ runs and average of 50 + (why is he not in the team?)

Why is this?
- They got the dukes ball, i agree, it made a huge difference
- They relaid the pitches, but i think most of them were not fully prepared.

How can you expect batsmen to have a longish innings in the middle when you have dukes ball on unprepared tracks ? If the test bed itself is compromised, it would be hard to expect them to stand up in real time.

So end of the day, you have batsmen in both Limited overs and FC cricket without time in the middle. How does not doing well in FC impact LO performance you may ask, well if a batsman does not have a good enough technique and cannot rotate strike often, he would eventually end up going for a release shot via slog and get out, in LO cricket.

5. Cricket not happening in Pakistan - I think it is self explanatory. It is the biggest factor in my opinion.

In the last couple of years, I have seen a professional set up in Pak cricket which is good to see, so hopefully the issues would be addressed. Just my two cents. Pakistan has thrived on natural talent and would continue to do so for years to come, but reliance on natural talent is diminishing each day, and one has to go up a couple of notches,w.r.t fitness,technique and work ethic, else would end up like Umar Akmal!

 

[Savak]

So thinking about this from a neutral perspective, why are Pakistani young batters not visibly more skilled/talented than their indian counterparts when they start off (at least that is what is being claimed). Apart from the usual rhetoric of competition due to 1 Billion, IPL etc., I think the following factors may be huge factors

1. Batting is no longer all about natural talent. Natural talent can only take you so far, beyond which one has to put in hard yards at practice. Back in the day, a batsman like Basit Ali came through the ranks possessing jaw dropping natural talent which may not serve him well in the current set up. Bowlers are smarter, fielders are fitter and unless you have 2 or 3 gears, it would be hard to make a similar impact.

2. Technique and coaching at grass roots go hand in hand. Who are the coaches at grass root level in Pakistan? I know Vengsarkar runs an academy in Mumbai, so dies Mohinder Amarnath, WV Raman is the coach of U19, Dravid handles U19 and A teams. So, any chink in the armor is fixed at grass root level, so by the time the player is at international level, technique is sorted, it is the temperament and adaptability which matter. Now if say, Basit Ali, is coaching t grass root level in Pakistan, and a youngster coming through the ranks, shows chinks in technique at highest level, then there may be certain aspects which he wouldn't be able to address (no disrespect to Basit, great hundred at Sharjah v WI).

3. Money - Yes, the root of all evil. Pakistanis fighting a case for breach of MoU and is hoping to get some money. Where is the money coming into Pakistan cricket right now? Is there enough of it handed to grass root level?
- Are coaches getting international accreditation
- Are pitches and grounds meeting international standards (see next point reg FC cricket)
- Is there a proper Academy with world class facilities? Im pretty sure there is, but is it doing enough?

3. Let us deep dive into FC Cricket in Pakistan for a bit- So, with little research, i was able to understand that the Quaid-e-Azam trophy needs some serious look in. Here are some of the stats from 2017/18 season

a. Average First innings score 235 (lowest among all countries). India is at 344
b. Runs per wicket 22.6 - lowest in many decades
c. 38 year old Aizaz Cheema has a bowling average of 9.61
d. Saad Ali - only batsman with 500+ runs and average of 50 + (why is he not in the team?)

Why is this?
- They got the dukes ball, i agree, it made a huge difference
- They relaid the pitches, but i think most of them were not fully prepared.

How can you expect batsmen to have a longish innings in the middle when you have dukes ball on unprepared tracks ? If the test bed itself is compromised, it would be hard to expect them to stand up in real time.

So end of the day, you have batsmen in both Limited overs and FC cricket without time in the middle. How does not doing well in FC impact LO performance you may ask, well if a batsman does not have a good enough technique and cannot rotate strike often, he would eventually end up going for a release shot via slog and get out, in LO cricket.

5. Cricket not happening in Pakistan - I think it is self explanatory. It is the biggest factor in my opinion.

In the last couple of years, I have seen a professional set up in Pak cricket which is good to see, so hopefully the issues would be addressed. Just my two cents. Pakistan has thrived on natural talent and would continue to do so for years to come, but reliance on natural talent is diminishing each day, and one has to go up a couple of notches,w.r.t fitness,technique and work ethic, else would end up like Umar Akmal!

To further add. I came across an article which clearly highlighted just how backward Pakistani Cricket was compared to England, Australia, India, New Zealand and South Africa. There has been a rapid advancement of technology, bowling machines, fitness, training techniques, nutritional diets and scientific analysis in the game. A batsman in these countries if they wish to work on their weak areas, practice developing other shots or innovative shots, because of these bowling machines, they can face every delivery in the book and they can literally practice for a good 5-6 hours at a stretch with the help of a bowling machine or a maximum of 1-3 guys operating the machine and giving him feedback and tips on how he was doing and yes these countries had many spare cricketing balls available to the players.

In Pakistan you have only one bowling machine of any standard at the NCA in Lahore, the article mentioned that even top international players like Hafeez, Malik or a Domestic Legend like Fawad Alam, if they wish to go to the NCA to work on their batting, they would need to first find a coach to work with them, they would need to arrange for the cricket balls themselves, they would need to arrange for the net bowlers themselves (no control over quality) and if you are relying on human bowlers to give you practice as oppossed to a bowling machine, the bowlers eventually lose steam and get tired after 30-45 minutes and the quality of their bowling declines and the batsman can no longer practice after that time limit. This factor is not to be underestimated at all and is definately a major explaner as to why Pakistani batsmen are unable to improve on their weak areas quickly and rapidly in comparison to the batsmen from the Big 5.

 

[Mamoon]

This is the result of a pathetic batting culture. The likes of Shaw and Gill and some other Indian U-19 batsmen are already better than our so-called seniors with 50+ Tests under their belts.

 

[shariqnoor]

This is the result of a pathetic batting culture. The likes of Shaw and Gill and some other Indian U-19 batsmen are already better than our so-called seniors with 50+ Tests under their belts.

I dont know why that is: the poor batting culture. It's never been that bad before. We've always had batsmen who were good at the international stage. Anwar, Ijaz, Inzamam, Malik, Yousuf, Younis, Misbah. But after Misbah, we have not produced 1 great batsman. Babar Azam is the best that we've got and he's a softie who bottles under pressure as well. Not sure why Pakistan has faced a famine in batting.

 

[Ahmed216]

I dont know why that is: the poor batting culture. It's never been that bad before. We've always had batsmen who were good at the international stage. Anwar, Ijaz, Inzamam, Malik, Yousuf, Younis, Misbah. But after Misbah, we have not produced 1 great batsman. Babar Azam is the best that we've got and he's a softie who bottles under pressure as well. Not sure why Pakistan has faced a famine in batting.

Dont be so hasty with babar

 

[Mamoon]

I dont know why that is: the poor batting culture. It's never been that bad before. We've always had batsmen who were good at the international stage. Anwar, Ijaz, Inzamam, Malik, Yousuf, Younis, Misbah. But after Misbah, we have not produced 1 great batsman. Babar Azam is the best that we've got and he's a softie who bottles under pressure as well. Not sure why Pakistan has faced a famine in batting.

It has a lot to do with lack of guidance. MoYo was our last great, complete batsman who lost 4-5 good years because of his attitude. Azhar is a hopeless case, but I think Shafiq would have learned more from him than Younis and Misbah.

Younis is a Pakistan Test legend, but he was not a complete player - he was a failure in ODIs and could not dominate fast bowling.

On the other hand, Misbah was a limited batsman who did not have the class to score big hundreds and double-hundreds, and was pretty ordinary in ODIs himself.

The likes of Babar and Haris etc. do not have mentors. You know things are bad when poster boys of mediocrity like Azhar and Shafiq are supposed to be the seniors to guide youngsters.

The only way Pakistan can sort it’s batting culture is to produce a super talent. Someone like Miandad who was a finished article since his debut.

Babar has all the qualities but unfortunately he does not have that killer instinct. At least not yet.

 

[shariqnoor]

It has a lot to do with lack of guidance. MoYo was our last great, complete batsman who lost 4-5 good years because of his attitude. Azhar is a hopeless case, but I think Shafiq would have learned more from him than Younis and Misbah.

Younis is a Pakistan Test legend, but he was not a complete player - he was a failure in ODIs and could not dominate fast bowling.

On the other hand, Misbah was a limited batsman who did not have the class to score big hundreds and double-hundreds, and was pretty ordinary in ODIs himself.

The likes of Babar and Haris etc. do not have mentors. You know things are bad when poster boys of mediocrity like Azhar and Shafiq are supposed to be the seniors to guide youngsters.

The only way Pakistan can sort it’s batting culture is to produce a super talent. Someone like Miandad who was a finished article since his debut.

Babar has all the qualities but unfortunately he does not have that killer instinct. At least not yet.

Misbah and Younis were Test batsmen and great ones at least by Pakistani standards. I believe Misbah could've been a very good ODI batsman as well but the amount of times Misbah had to come at 30/3 or lower to stabilize the innings took a huge mental toll on him and he forgot how to bat in ODIs. I still remember his chase against NZ in NZ in 2011 when he scored 90+ at more than a run a ball to win Pakistan the game. That was the original Misbah. If he had the likes of Yousuf and Inzamam in the team with him, he could've been a great ODI player ala Hussey.

Azhar was never my favorite and he never learned anything from Younis despite batting with him for so long in his career. I don't think having an iconic batting player in the team would create a batting culture. The malaise runs deep than just having 1 or 2 great batsmen to look up to. Mohammad Yousuf just retired in 2010. So people born in 1995-1996 would still know about Yousuf and would've seen him play. But in 8 years since he retired, we haven't unearthed another one like him. We still see the impact of Wasim Akram in our bowling culture, who retired almost 15-16 years back, as many want to bowl left-arm fast but the same thing hasn't been replicated in our batting. Also I dont necessarily believe that an icon has to come from within your own country. With TV bringing every match to your home, Kohli is enough of an icon to inspire every cricketer who wants to become a batsman.

Our pitches back home in domestic leave a lot to be desired. If teams are going to be bundled out for less than 150 every innings, one can't expect to get superior talent. We need batsmen learning the art of playing 2 days. Just like you need to bowl 30 overs a day to get better, you need 2 days of batting to improve your game. Our pitches do not afford that.

 

[Mamoon]

Misbah and Younis were Test batsmen and great ones at least by Pakistani standards. I believe Misbah could've been a very good ODI batsman as well but the amount of times Misbah had to come at 30/3 or lower to stabilize the innings took a huge mental toll on him and he forgot how to bat in ODIs. I still remember his chase against NZ in NZ in 2011 when he scored 90+ at more than a run a ball to win Pakistan the game. That was the original Misbah. If he had the likes of Yousuf and Inzamam in the team with him, he could've been a great ODI player ala Hussey.

Azhar was never my favorite and he never learned anything from Younis despite batting with him for so long in his career. I don't think having an iconic batting player in the team would create a batting culture. The malaise runs deep than just having 1 or 2 great batsmen to look up to. Mohammad Yousuf just retired in 2010. So people born in 1995-1996 would still know about Yousuf and would've seen him play. But in 8 years since he retired, we haven't unearthed another one like him. We still see the impact of Wasim Akram in our bowling culture, who retired almost 15-16 years back, as many want to bowl left-arm fast but the same thing hasn't been replicated in our batting. Also I dont necessarily believe that an icon has to come from within your own country. With TV bringing every match to your home, Kohli is enough of an icon to inspire every cricketer who wants to become a batsman.

Our pitches back home in domestic leave a lot to be desired. If teams are going to be bundled out for less than 150 every innings, one can't expect to get superior talent. We need batsmen learning the art of playing 2 days. Just like you need to bowl 30 overs a day to get better, you need 2 days of batting to improve your game. Our pitches do not afford that.

Domestic pitches is certainly a problem. How many of our young, upcoming batsmen have scored double and triple tons in domestic cricket? In India, Jadeja has scored three triple tons in Ranji Trophy, and he is not a specialist batsman.

Karun Nair scored a triple ton in his second Test against England, and you simply cannot imagine a young Pakistani batsman doing that.

As far as learned from players and getting inspired by watching them is concerned, I believe that it is different for batting compared to bowling.

Batting is a methodical, repetitive skill where the element of raw talent is small compared to fast bowling. Watching MoYo bat on tv is not the same as being out there in the middle with him and developing partnerships.

The likes of Shaw and Gill can be inspired by Kohli as much as they want, but they learning that they will get by playing with him in the middle is invaluable.

The absence of a master batsman is clearly showing in our batting and our young players are left to fend for themselves.