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Relations with Israel could help Pakistan, says former president Musharraf

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Gabbar Singh

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Do you agree with him?

In his first interview with an Israeli newspaper, former president Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan tells Haaretz about Pakistan-U.S. relations, Iran's nuclear ambitions, and how he would solve the Arab-Israeli conflict.

LONDON - We are seven minutes early. The woman accompanying me, who has helped set up the interview, suggests we remain seated in her chauffeured car outside the entrance, right off Hyde Park, and wait. Two minutes pass. Three. We both look at our watches. Four. We sit. "The General is very punctual," she explains. "It would not be right to show up early."

"Of course."

Five. Six.

A kind-faced servant opens the door, takes our winter coats and leads us into the modest apartment. I seat myself on the puffy couch, accept a glass of icy water, decline a greasy bureka, and glance around: golden decorative swords on the mantle, a sugar bowl featuring Klimt's "The Kiss" on the coffee table, and a big-screen TV tuned to a golf championship, on mute.

And then he walks in, wearing a tweed jacket and beige corduroys, and, since he has just come back from a wedding in the United States the night before, looking a little sleepy: four star general Pervez Musharraf, one of Pakistan's longest serving rulers, who today lives in self imposed exile in London. He shakes my hand warmly, clicks off the golf, and we begin.

Born in 1943 to a prominent family, Musharraf joined the military, zoomed through the ranks and was made chief of the army in 1998. A year later, he took power in a bloodless coup, ousting Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and promising to bring democracy, law and order to Pakistan.

Almost a decade later and under threat of impeachment, Musharraf resigned. But he had already secured his place in history by allying Pakistan with the United States against the Taliban after the September 11 attacks, and going on to play a pivotal role on the world stage in the war against terror. It was a role that required walking a fine line between U.S. demands to crack down on extremism in Pakistan - previously one of only three countries in the world to give diplomatic recognition to the Taliban - and demands at home from an increasingly vocal anti-American Islamist constituency.

This was not the only tightrope act Musharraf attempted to carry out during his time in office. Four years ago, in an interview with Al-Arabiya, the leader of the second largest Muslim country in the world took many by surprise by offering his services as a mediator in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and hinting he would be willing to travel to Israel, a sworn enemy country, as part of this effort.

Two years before, addressing a gathering of the American Jewish Congress in New York (where his presence was in itself highly unusual ) Musharraf all but said that Pakistan could be open to establishing ties with the Jewish State.

As it turned out, he never became a mediator in the conflict, nor were relations forged between Israel and Pakistan. But now Musharraf - who has vowed to return home in the coming months and run for the presidency again - sits down with a Haaretz reporter in his first-ever interview with an Israeli newspaper to revisit these suggestions and chat about the future for his country, ours, and a great deal more.

W W W

"I felt I needed to test the waters in Pakistan when it came to Israel. Yes. We have been anti-Israel in Pakistan because of Palestine, because the Pakistani people are on the side of the Palestinians and are concerned for their plight. Right from the beginning, from when we got our independence in '47 and Israel came into reality a year later, we have been pro-Palestine," begins Musharraf.

"But I believe in realism and in assessing ground realities. I think it's necessary to understand the changing environment, analyze it - and respond. A lot has happened since '48, and one has to adjust. Policies are made, yes, but when the environment changes, policies should change. Policies should not remain constant."

Musharraf is talking about one particular new reality, he admits, or, perhaps, more accurately, one reality that is newly clear to some.

"Israel is a fait accompli," he states. "A lot of the Muslim world have understood that and I know many Muslim countries have relations with Israel, whether above board or covertly. So this is the change in reality I am talking about. Pakistan has to keep demanding the resolution of the Palestinian dispute ... [but] Pakistan also needs to keep readjusting its diplomatic stand toward Israel based on the mere fact that it exists and is not going away."
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Continued......

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/maga...stan-says-former-president-musharraf-1.405846
 
Oh Busharraf you're finished

Some of the things he says these days, makes him sound ill

Pakistan will NEVER establish relations with isreal
 
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Perhaps.

If it's in the best interests of Pakistan.

The Palestine issue can still be talked about with Israel, of course. Problem is Pakistan doesn't have much leverage whether they change their stand or not. It all becomes about personal gain as a nation.

Having said that, not sure what Musharraf's play is here. Doesn't seem like something that would win you many votes. :))
 
About to start reading, my current stance is no. Let's see if Musharraf can change my mind.
 
GOAT said:
About to start reading, my current stance is no. Let's see if Musharraf can change my mind.
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Not a chance. :))

I am actually somewhat neutral on this and his points didn't even convince me. Way to vague.

Anyone can throw out ideas like this.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
:)) Musharraf shows how out of touch he is with Pakistanis.
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That's because most Pakistanis have been taught to hate Israel. Look at Qatar & Turkey. They are benifitting from relations with Israel. If Pakistan has to dig it self out of the hole than it has to start caring for itself & not just hate Israel b/c some countries (Saudi Arabia etc.) tell us to. While the rest of the Arab nations are forming ties with Israel, we are stuck in the "servant" sort of mind of frame.
 
Why is Musharraf so worried about Israel? Shouldn't that be left to the Arabs and we should work on our relations with our own neighbours?
 
deviously~fading~away said:
That's because most Pakistanis have been taught to hate Israel. Look at Qatar & Turkey. They are benifitting from relations with Israel. If Pakistan has to dig it self out of the hole than it has to start caring for itself & not just hate Israel b/c some countries (Saudi Arabia etc.) tell us to. While the rest of the Arab nations are forming ties with Israel, we are stuck in the "servant" sort of mind of frame.
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And the fact they are next door signing God knows how many deals, agreements etc trying to mess Pakistan over (well break us basically)?
 
If it helps Pakistan become a stronger country then i do not mind it .
 
Meh, he made some very obvious points and any benefit was merely hinted at and not openly stated. Basically what I got was this: recognize Israel, better our world image. Maybe some military aid or trade relations.

I did like this bit though:

"And I thought, who is involved? It's the U.S., Israel and the Arabs. But these people have failed, so who else should take it on? And I thought of the non-Arab Muslims - namely Turkey, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia. These are four very important Muslim countries, and I thought we should join with Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, and all together, these seven, we would make an acceptable mediating team."
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I don't know about Malaysia but Turkey, Indonesia and Pakistan are definitely much more in the forefront of Islam's world opinion then most Arab countries. Militarily much stronger to boot. I'd love for us to have our own arrangement.
 
What an idiot Mush is. He needs to understand the ideology of Zionism, it can be no friend of Pakistan.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Why is Musharraf so worried about Israel? Shouldn't that be left to the Arabs and we should work on our relations with our own neighbours?
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neighbor arab countries egypt and Jordan already have relation.

saudi arabia got indirect relation...

why not pakistan?
 
Black Zero said:
neighbor arab countries egypt and Jordan already have relation.

saudi arabia got indirect relation...

why not pakistan?
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Because israel have no interest in trying to break any of those countries...they're just worried about 2 countries.
And the 2 masters of deception (we all know who) are together doing their theeeyyng in relation to us :altaf
 
Mohsin said:
And the fact they are next door signing God knows how many deals, agreements etc trying to mess Pakistan over (well break us basically)?
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That is b/c while we don't even talk to them India became their ally. If Pakistan starts relations with Israel it will clout India's power over Israel. Just like India did with the Arab world when Pakistan at 1st was Arab world's only ally from south asia.
 
I like Musharraf 7 muslim nations joint team for Palestine-Israel Conflict. Even the Israelis accepted it. But it was left in the middle once elections happened & Musharraf resigned...
 
If a 2 state solution comes into place and the Palestinian people agree, do you think we should change our stance on Israel then?
 
Its going to be a very brave move to recognize Israel. I have no deep reservations to it, will Pakistan survive the backlash from the Arab states? When have the Arabs ever supported us in our Kashmir issues or with our political squabbles with India?

At the same time India and Israel are closely collaborating together in education, military, weapons, technology, research all against Pakistan. Recognizing Israel would be a better way to handle this than not recognizing Israel.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
If a 2 state solution comes into place and the Palestinian people agree, do you think we should change our stance on Israel then?
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We'd have to take the same approach a lot of Western nations take towards us. A necessary evil till we can work em over.
 
deviously~fading~away said:
That's because most Pakistanis have been taught to hate Israel. Look at Qatar & Turkey. They are benifitting from relations with Israel. If Pakistan has to dig it self out of the hole than it has to start caring for itself & not just hate Israel b/c some countries (Saudi Arabia etc.) tell us to. While the rest of the Arab nations are forming ties with Israel, we are stuck in the "servant" sort of mind of frame.
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I dont think we have been taught to hate Israel tbh we just deeply sympathise with the Palestinian people.
 
recognizing israel can be very beneficial economically in terms of trade terms and relations with the developed countries.

Pakistan realy doesn't have much to contribute to the Palestine issue so recognizing Israel will not really hurt the interests of the Palestinians as Pakistan is hardly a big game player in this particular issue. So the benefits of this step outweight the potential costs.

Israel is there, everyone talks about it and refers to it as a country so better recognize it as its not going anywhere anytime soon.

Pakistan should do what is best for the Pakistan. We are not the thekaydaar of the Islamic world or the so called non existent Muslim brotherhood who have never been there for us in our time of need.
 
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PakPrince said:
recognizing israel can be very beneficial economically in terms of trade terms and relations with the developed countries.

Pakistan realy doesn't have much to contribute to the Palestine issue so recognizing Israel will not really hurt the interests of the Palestinians as Pakistan is hardly a big game player in this particular issue. So the benefits of this step outweight the potential costs

Pakistan should do what is best for the Pakistan. We are not the thekaydaar of the Islamic world or the so called non existent Muslim brotherhood who have never been there for us in our time of need.
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Pakistan has contributed to the Palestinian cause, in some way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

We crushed the Palestinian rebellion (led by Yasser Arafat) v. King Hussein of Jordan... and, that's the irony, one of the leader of the regiments killing Palestinians was the then-brigadier (why didn't he remained so) Zia-ul-Haq... yes, Mard-e-Haq or Apostle-e-Shariat killed Palestinians.

:misbah

Also, ask the Arabs if they know where Kashmir is; the point being that the concept of Islamic brotherhood is a big fluke, that the Muslim world is like an horde of wolves waiting to eat its neighbour. That said, Israel remains an anti-democratic force in its essence, but as you pointed out, every nations looks for its own interests - we should do the same, because despite Arabs wishing us to be a ... superpower, we just can't play the role of the Ummah's fighting Messiah.

:zaka
 
interesting..so lets see if we recognise Isreal that means we would have to sign an official peace with them since they like to have things in writing.

Now what does that mean? if you recognise Isreal you also by default recognise its right to Al-Aqsa, the occupied territories, and others. You also recognise its right to continue to abuse palestinian children under the cover of security, you also recognise its right to continue to build settlements wherever it wants.

Now many of you will say "oh well thats just rubbish because most of this is all against international law etc", yes it is but recognising Isreal means you dont have a say in what it does at an international level. You will be an ally like it or not. isreal doesnt play in grey area;s. You will agree with them, you will listen to them and they will walk in and out of your country however they like! theyll shoot up your people and you wont be able to do anything to them!

having them as an enemy is better than having them as a friend. Make no bones about it. They see us as a long term existential threat friend or foe. We are gentiles. Cattle to them. making friends with them is like letting the fox into the hen coop.!

this article betrays Mush's secularist agenda and stupidity i the guise of realism! no wonder he failed after ten years of absolute power!
 
PakPrince said:
recognizing israel can be very beneficial economically in terms of trade terms and relations with the developed countries.

Pakistan realy doesn't have much to contribute to the Palestine issue so recognizing Israel will not really hurt the interests of the Palestinians as Pakistan is hardly a big game player in this particular issue. So the benefits of this step outweight the potential costs.

Israel is there, everyone talks about it and refers to it as a country so better recognize it as its not going anywhere anytime soon.

Pakistan should do what is best for the Pakistan. We are not the thekaydaar of the Islamic world or the so called non existent Muslim brotherhood who have never been there for us in our time of need.
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it will show the world that the only state founded on the basis of the deen of Islam has betrayed the third qibla and is full of hypocrites who are ready to sell their souls for a few hundred bucks..

the arabs have their way, but we have ours. and it is right and proper that we continue to support the palestinians in their struggle independantly of what the arabs think!

recognising Isreal delegitimises the Palestinian freedom struggle. Instead of running after paisa, we should be sorting our own house out first, then providing the palestinians with the democratic supprot and know how with regards to their freedom struggle. Supporting their youth, and people. Not cowtowing to the Isrealis just because they can get us some f16s on the cheap from big brother amreeka!
 
Arbi beghairat hain to hum bhi unke jaise banjaye?

Thanks but no thanks Mushy.
 
To be honest most Pakistanis think that we're champions of Islam whereas rest of the muslim world only stand for themselves. In matter of need, nobody from palestine, lebanon, jordan, qatar, kuwait, saudi arabia will come on streets to defend us where as we keep on protesting for them and keep burning flag of US and Israel for the cause of Palestine. We've destroyed ourselves by raising voice for every other country while neglecting ourselves and becoming a laughing stock around the world. Its time that we only look for our interest and prosper!
 
What next? Recognise them as a Jewish state and G_d's chosen people?

There would be no benefit whatsoever long term, the Apartheid state is a lunatic state and detests everything most Pakistanis stand for - Islam.

Throughout their short history, Israel have proven they cannot be trusted even towards their allies. They were created on deception and terrorism.

Zionism is a continuation of nazi ideology and i wouldn't want any relations with such an ideology.
 
Let's try and fix South Asia, our own backyard and our own 'occupied Palestine' in Kashmir.

Pakistan is not the Champion of Islam or Upholder of the Brotherhood like some Pakistanis would like us to be. We are an independent nation and should be looking out for our own interest for once instead of being the lapdogs of the US and the Arabs.
 
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I'm anti-Israeli government and their policies and what they do to the Palestinians.

However, given that Arab nations have established relations with the Israelis, Pakistan has no responsibilities for the Palestinian issue; the Arabs should take the lead on that...and given the Arab stinking attitude to Kashmir, it's time they took their own responsibilities.
 
What's wrong in it? if relationship is improved and Pakistan can play any role in solving Palestinian dispute then nothing is wrong. Pakistan has declared India the most favorite nation even though Kashmir issue is still unsolved and no one is taking it serious. Some people just want to bash Musharraf and look for any reason to do that right?

Anyway Musharraf has already clarified what he meant and how people are expert to present his statement out of context.
 
Agreed with Mush here. It's time to put aside this hatred for Israel. Honestly I don't see why we should give a crap about Palestine. We have tons of our own worries and problems to solve. First help get on your own feet then help others.
 
WithLoveFromCanada said:
To be honest most Pakistanis think that we're champions of Islam whereas rest of the muslim world only stand for themselves. In matter of need, nobody from palestine, lebanon, jordan, qatar, kuwait, saudi arabia will come on streets to defend us where as we keep on protesting for them and keep burning flag of US and Israel for the cause of Palestine. We've destroyed ourselves by raising voice for every other country while neglecting ourselves and becoming a laughing stock around the world. Its time that we only look for our interest and prosper!
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+1.

We Pakistanis are such a stupid quam. In all the masjids you go they're always refering to the Palestinian cause. I have to ask why? What about the cause to get our own nation up on it's feet and prosper?
 
Wasim_Waqar said:
I'm anti-Israeli government and their policies and what they do to the Palestinians.

However, given that Arab nations have established relations with the Israelis, Pakistan has no responsibilities for the Palestinian issue; the Arabs should take the lead on that...and given the Arab stinking attitude to Kashmir, it's time they took their own responsibilities.
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+1 again.
 
The misdeeds of some of the Arab countries are no reason for us to do the same.
 
lahori said:
+1.

We Pakistanis are such a stupid quam. In all the masjids you go they're always refering to the Palestinian cause. I have to ask why? What about the cause to get our own nation up on it's feet and prosper?
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The two issues are unrelated...we can have a strong pakiatan without recognising isreal..it is an apartheid state..would you have recognised sa when they were a rascist state? No thanks..

Mush is a traitor and should get off the whiskey..idiot
 
DeadlyVenom said:
The misdeeds of some of the Arab countries are no reason for us to do the same.
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Honestly. People complain about us living in their shadows then want us to do something simply to spite them?

lol wut. That's not independence, that's being a crazy ex.
 
the Great Khan said:
The two issues are unrelated...we can have a strong pakiatan without recognising isreal..it is an apartheid state..would you have recognised sa when they were a rascist state? No thanks..

Mush is a traitor and should get off the whiskey..idiot
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Yes the two are unrelated but do you have any idea how much time and energy we waste on the Palestine issue? Mush is not a traitor, if anything he was the best thing that happened to this country from 1998 till 2007. The current rulers are 10000 times worse. THey have brought nothing but DAMAGE to this nation.
 
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DeadlyVenom said:
The misdeeds of some of the Arab countries are no reason for us to do the same.
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You may be right: but I'm not bothered if we do or don't recognise them.

I have already mentioned the reasons.

Pakistan first (with Kashmir): that is the priority. Punjab, sindh and even KP have historically had more attention but Balochistan and Kashmir (AJK and IOK) need more attention.
 
Markhor said:
Let's try and fix South Asia, our own backyard and our own 'occupied Palestine' in Kashmir.

Pakistan is not the Champion of Islam or Upholder of the Brotherhood like some Pakistanis would like us to be. We are an independent nation and should be looking out for our own interest for once instead of being the lapdogs of the US and the Arabs.
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You are right.

I find you an interesting poster, the only person from Sheffield (Pakistani) who has great perspective and knowledge- most of the Pakistanis in Sheffield are ignorant or don't have a clue!!!
 
Runner Up said:
Pakistan has declared India the most favorite nation even though Kashmir issue is still unsolved and no one is taking it serious.
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MFN status is part of WTO trade law. All it means is that you treat other nations equally and that you cannot discriminate between your trading partners - hence why people are not taking it seriously.

Some people just want to bash Musharraf and look for any reason to do that right?
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For good reason people are bashing him. Musharraf brought back the crooks and the plunderers under NRO black law and now Pakistan is feeling the effect of NRO under this government.

On the topic of Kashmir, apparently Musharraf was a signature away from finalizing Kashmir agreement with India, and the deal was believed to be to making LOC the permanent border.

Wasim_Waqar said:
You are right.

I find you an interesting poster, the only person from Sheffield (Pakistani) who has great perspective and knowledge- most of the Pakistanis in Sheffield are ignorant or don't have a clue!!!
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TBH most Asian communities around the UK have a section of jingoistic Dil Dil Pakistan, Jai Hind, Amar Desh Bangladesh types not just here or people who turn a blind eye and are ignorant as you say, but they are in a minority.
 
Wasim_Waqar said:
You may be right: but I'm not bothered if we do or don't recognise them.

I have already mentioned the reasons.

Pakistan first (with Kashmir): that is the priority. Punjab, sindh and even KP have historically had more attention but Balochistan and Kashmir (AJK and IOK) need more attention.
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Our support for Palestine hasn't really made us lose focus on Kashmir at all. It is merely symbolic support but it sends out a message to the world that we are totally against the treatment of the Palestinian people by the zionists.

It would send shivers down my spine to see a Pak PM shaking hands with an Israeli one.
 
Establishing relations with Isreal is a double edged sword because although it has immediate short term benefits overall will isolate us from the rest of the muslim world as well as our own people ( even more than now!), Isreal will push for embassies and other such political steps which will stregthen its hold on us creating such a biased one way relationship in its favour as to make our currrent relationship with America seem like a Honeymoon period whilst at all times eying our Nukes and other Military capabilities to defend ourselves

this is because Isreal needs to justify its exsistence by a complete control of the middle east and Jerusalem as its Capital with the demolishing of Al-Aqsa and building the Temple of Solomon there. It has to do this so it can justify itself being a "JEWISH" State otherwise it will not be accepted by Jews but this cannot be acepted by muslims as AL-Aqsa is equal to the Kaaba and Prophet's Mosque for all real muslims we cannot differentatie between them.

Isreal will also not allow Pakistan to flourish for the added reason that Pakistan was meant to be a Islamic State with Shariah to be implemented in the manner of wisdom and mercy that the Prophet S.A.W showed us not the fools of nowadays state.

Finally to all those who claim Pakistan needs to be Secular or that it is based on Secularity I have three questions

1) Why does Isreal the darling of the West for whom they will go to any lengths insist on being a JEWISH NOT SECULAR BUT JEWISH STATE?

2) Have you forgotten the History of the muslims how when we were under Shariah we were the most progressive people in the world our decay set in when we started following other traditions

3) Finally have you forgotten th sacrafices made in the name of Islam from Day 1 of our history do the lives wealth honour and dignity of those who gave them not demand that we atleast give it our 100% to actually try and make a fuctional modern Nation guided by the precepts of Islam?
 
KingKhanWC said:
It will help break Pakistan by deception.

Anyway it's good you no longer have the Israeli flag but now the Saudi one? :facepalm: :)))
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How ?

What is wrong with diplomatic ties ? Egypt , Turkey have diplomatic ties with them heck Iran even recognized Israel .

By not recognizing them and having nothing to do with them is making zilch of a difference in the lives of Palestinians so Pakistanis might as well try making a good difference in their own lives .

Obviously , i do appreciate our stance on this Palestinian issue but quite frankly , we need to help ourselves first before trying to help out others .

Ideally , that is what i would want but knowing are leaders , who are too easily dictated by others . I fear they are going to push Pakistan further into a deeper hole .
 
^ and how exactly will having relations with Israel 'help' Pakistan?
 
It's not about Israel helping us, but I don't see that he have any obligation to be anti-Israel given what I've said previously.
 
you're right we don't have any obligation at all, but even a lot of non-Muslims have been very anti-Israel over their occupation of Palestinian lands and their apartheid state policy.

is even that allowed for Pakistan?
 
Our stance on Israel changes very little either way. Israel as a state is pretty much against any form of strength by a Muslim majority nation. If we recognize them, it doesn't mean we'll be getting much in the form of anything - do you think they'll want to make us stronger in any way? They've already picked their South Asian ally and it's not us.

At least with not recognizing them we're on the side of what is morally correct and in line with those who share the same religious beliefs as us. The Arab governments might be allied with Israel on paper, but this sentiment isn't shared by the general population by any means.

By recognizing Israel we risk to lose more support then gain.
 
lahori said:
Yes the two are unrelated but do you have any idea how much time and energy we waste on the Palestine issue? Mush is not a traitor, if anything he was the best thing that happened to this country from 1998 till 2007. The current rulers are 10000 times worse. THey have brought nothing but DAMAGE to this nation.
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I'd like you to quantify the above remark..I fear we dont wate enough time on this most pressing issue. The west spends more time on this issue than we do. We unfortunatley have our own problems to deal with. But that doesnt mean we ignore what is right. Make no bones about it, if you recognise Isreal they will laugh and call you to heel like a little puppy. If thats what you want to be then go for it.

Also for those who think some benefit will come out of this relationship please highlight the benefits Pakistan will achieve by recognising Isreal! a list would be nice!
 
Looney said:
How ?

What is wrong with diplomatic ties ? Egypt , Turkey have diplomatic ties with them heck Iran even recognized Israel .

By not recognizing them and having nothing to do with them is making zilch of a difference in the lives of Palestinians so Pakistanis might as well try making a good difference in their own lives .

Obviously , i do appreciate our stance on this Palestinian issue but quite frankly , we need to help ourselves first before trying to help out others .

Ideally , that is what i would want but knowing are leaders , who are too easily dictated by others . I fear they are going to push Pakistan further into a deeper hole .
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yes and what did the turks do when they lost 19 of their citizens? anything? other than calling back their diplomats? egypt? lol and are you aware of egypts capability vis a vis Isreal? are you aware that egypt is complicit in the siege of Gaza? this is what happens when you become an ally of Isreal! they will make you their lapdog and laugh at you!

as mentioned in my previous post please list the benefits you think pakistan will get by recognising Isreal!
 
What benefit will we gain from Israel? Will they really transfer any technology to us? Does Israel have anything else to give us?

Where is Musharraf suggesting we get our oil from?
Where is Musharraf suggesting we shift our expats once we lose access to the middle eastern labour market?
Most important of all what should our response be to the attrocities against the Palestinians?
We are already stuck with the attrocities on the Chinese muslims, do we really need to make alliances with more oppressors.
 
Wazeeri said:
What benefit will we gain from Israel? Will they really transfer any technology to us? Does Israel have anything else to give us?

Where is Musharraf suggesting we get our oil from?
Where is Musharraf suggesting we shift our expats once we lose access to the middle eastern labour market?
Most important of all what should our response be to the attrocities against the Palestinians?
We are already stuck with the attrocities on the Chinese muslims, do we really need to make alliances with more oppressors.
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yes but Mush will be able to attend the AIPAC conference and tip his hat to Bibi netanyahu so its all good..
 
lahori said:
Yes the two are unrelated but do you have any idea how much time and energy we waste on the Palestine issue? Mush is not a traitor, if anything he was the best thing that happened to this country from 1998 till 2007. The current rulers are 10000 times worse. THey have brought nothing but DAMAGE to this nation.
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Best thing to happen to this country?

Record number of frauds
Record number of loan defaults
Land allotments to political partners and relatives
Ruined our security situation
Ruined our economy,

Lets accept that he is 10000 times better than the current leaders, can you please remind us who brought these current leaders back with the NRO?
 
Mushy made a few mistakes, but he wasn't corrupt. Whatever he did was intended to best for the country.

He is the only leader in the world, who can goto any platform and talk sense.
 
Mushy made a few mistakes, but he wasn't corrupt. Whatever he did was intended to best for the country.
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Selective memory

Land allotments to MMA
Land allotments to MQM
Land allotments to his sons father in law.
Record number of loan defaults from the National Bank.
Security situation worst than at war times.

Also his legal frauds, doubled and then doubled the salaries of Generals to keep them on his side.
Increased the number of Generals to keep powerful army men on his side.

Just to spell this out for you, That was Pakistan's tax money which Musharrad decided to use to pay inflated wages to army men so Musharraf can stay in power. That was Pakistani land which Musharraf decided to hand out to his partners so Musharraf can stay in power.

Broaden your definition of fraud and corruption.
 
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ou won't have open relationships with Iran to the extent that you have with China yet you are willing to have relations with Israel.

Go F yourself Musharraf or ask Bush to do it for you!
 
I'm not pro-Israeli and like the current stance. But I don't think as a NATION we have any obligation to the Palestinians.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
The misdeeds of some of the Arab countries are no reason for us to do the same.
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You've spent 60 years for the Palestine Cause, for the Iraq cause, for the Afghan cause for the Chechnya cause, for the Bosnia cause for the Timbaktoo cause....where it has left your country? After 60 years of bad experience, you want to continue your support for other muslim countries who wont do sh-it when your own country is in trouble? Who was standing with Pakistan when OBL (an arab terrorist) was found in Pakistan? 9/11 wasn't done by Pakistanis, they were all arabs and still Pakistan is feeling the heat why? because we portray ourselves as the champions of Islam. At least after 60 years educated people should understand that its every country for itself and we should look for our own progress first rather than saving others from fire when our own house is burning!
 
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GOAT said:
Our stance on Israel changes very little either way. Israel as a state is pretty much against any form of strength by a Muslim majority nation. If we recognize them, it doesn't mean we'll be getting much in the form of anything - do you think they'll want to make us stronger in any way? They've already picked their South Asian ally and it's not us.

At least with not recognizing them we're on the side of what is morally correct and in line with those who share the same religious beliefs as us. The Arab governments might be allied with Israel on paper, but this sentiment isn't shared by the general population by any means.

By recognizing Israel we risk to lose more support then gain.
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By not supporting, what have we gained? Refer to my last post.

Go read history. If you want to become a powerful nation you've to live with the game makers and learn. Muslims ruled south asia but Brits took it away. They didnt come up from day 1 and said "we're here to fight you". Instead they developed themselves in the region by being friends of muslims and then when they were strong enough, then they were able to deprive muslims of the rule.
 
WithLoveFromCanada said:
You've spent 60 years for the Palestine Cause, for the Iraq cause, for the Afghan cause for the Chechnya cause, for the Bosnia cause for the Timbaktoo cause....where it has left your country? After 60 years of bad experience, you want to continue your support for other muslim countries who wont do sh-it when your own country is in trouble? Who was standing with Pakistan when OBL (an arab terrorist) was found in Pakistan? 9/11 wasn't done by Pakistanis, they were all arabs and still Pakistan is feeling the heat why? because we portray ourselves as the champions of Islam. At least after 60 years educated people should understand that its every country for itself and we should look for our own progress first rather than saving others from fire when our own house is burning!
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Again it doesn't matter what the Arab countries do, we are taking a moral stand on the issue and not looking for any gain.

Do you really want the embassy of the most oppressive regime in recent history in Islamabad?

Pakistan is not in trouble because of all those things you outlined. I don't know why you think they are linked.
 
WithLoveFromCanada said:
By not supporting, what have we gained? Refer to my last post.

Go read history. If you want to become a powerful nation you've to live with the game makers and learn. Muslims ruled south asia but Brits took it away. They didnt come up from day 1 and said "we're here to fight you". Instead they developed themselves in the region by being friends of muslims and then when they were strong enough, then they were able to deprive muslims of the rule.
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Thats really got nothing to do with anything being discussed here.
 
Wow! Musharraf in my opinion just went down from mid-high lvl range to complete 0.
 
deviously~fading~away said:
That's because most Pakistanis have been taught to hate Israel. Look at Qatar & Turkey. They are benifitting from relations with Israel. If Pakistan has to dig it self out of the hole than it has to start caring for itself & not just hate Israel b/c some countries (Saudi Arabia etc.) tell us to. While the rest of the Arab nations are forming ties with Israel, we are stuck in the "servant" sort of mind of frame.
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there is no doubt what you are saying is true but i think pakistan decide any position after there is a peace with israeli and palestinians.
 
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