Relations with Israel could help Pakistan, says former president Musharraf

[rhony]

I want justice for them too. However, i was speaking purely from the perspective of intl. relations. The Arabs arent doing the Kashmir cause any favours. Arabs (including Palestinians) have good ties with India while Pakistan (and Kashmiris) want to have absolutely nothing to do with Israel. You dont know how much Kashmiris hate Israel its crazy. If you ask an average Kashmiri who he wants to achieve freedom 1st, he would say 1st Palestine and then Kashmir. Thats how crazy it is. But my question is, is our blood cheaper? In international relations its always give and take. If Arabs arent helping Pakistan in Kashmir, why should Pakistan not adopt the same approach with Palestine? I am speaking about the interests of Pakistanis and Kashmiris. Not to mention you can have diplomatic ties with Israel and still work for the Palestinian cause.

Kashmiris shouldn't be worried. India inexplicably maintains excellent relationship with both Palestine and Israel.

 

[Madplayer]

Kashmiris shouldn't be worried. India inexplicably maintains excellent relationship with both Palestine and Israel.

Yes. 50% of Israeli weapons in last few years have been purchased by India alone.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] would you be open to an Israel-Pakistan Alliance if it is of benefit to you such as counter balancing the India factor ? Honest opinion needed, not an emotional or a moral one...

Mushy is turning senile in his old age. Ok lets look at this rationally.


Firstly Pakistan will have to recognise Israel as a legitimate state/nation. This recognition will be politcal suicide for any current PM and even if the Pak people backed this, Pakistan would only recognise Israel's borders which were set after the 67 war. Israel has not defined it's borders unlike any other country in history. Pakistan would then have to form relations with an occupying power which has no plan to leave those areas, the continious building of settlements and taking over of land is the proof.

If Israel were to pull out of occupied areas and start a genuine plan to a peaceful two state solution, Pakistan could then agree to recognise them as part of the final agreement.

But I can assure you, from now and until the rest of our lives, Israel will not pull out of settlements and will continue to steal land.

I believe India has an extremist party and leader in charge, of course you may disagree but India can change or even the ruling party may change it's policies. The same can not be said of Israel, their leaders are not extremist but can only be described as Satanists. I could go into detail but to a few examples , their leaders(in government now) have openly said the 3rd Temple should and will be built on the site where the 3rd holiest site for Muslims currently stands. Israelis said 911 was a good thing for them and also want the destruction of Muslim countries around them, which we have seen in Iraq, Libya and Syria.

Israel unlike India and Pakistan is not here to live peacfully and for it's people to prosper. It's people have come from around the world to take land because their book says so. They will not stop until Israel becomes the worlds greatest nation, with the temple built and their Messiah to come and rule the world. I know this might sound crazy but that is their belief and aim, not to be ok with Pakistan or anyone else.

 

[Major]

Israelis said 911 was a good thing for them and also want the destruction of Muslim countries around them, which we have seen in Iraq, Libya and Syria

source

 

[KingKhanWC]

source

Report: Netanyahu Says 9/11 Terror Attacks Good for Israel

https://www.haaretz.com/1.4970678

 

[ElRaja]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] do u believe Pakistan not recognising israel has any effect in the real politik of the Palestine issue, and given the proximity of saudi to israel, are you comfortable with Pakistani further aligning itself with the house of saud and distancing itself from iran?

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] do u believe Pakistan not recognising israel has any effect in the real politik of the Palestine issue, and given the proximity of saudi to israel, are you comfortable with Pakistani further aligning itself with the house of saud and distancing itself from iran?

Pakistan having or not having political relations with Israel will make no difference to the plight of the Palestinians. As I wrote, Israel is not here to live happily with others, it is on a very serious mission which is to re-establish the kingdom of David. If anything, Pakistan would have been made to condemn acts against Israel and any silence would then be given the anti-semitic card.

As for Saudi, being the home of the holy sites Pakistan will always have relations with the rulers. Pakistan being a nuclear power, the Saudi's have decided to be good terms and have Pakistan as an insurance policy in case the western nations turn against them. After the murder of the journalist in Turkey, it was important for Bin Salman to strengthen those relationships with Pakistan for his peronal image. I dont believe Iran and Pakistan have any major issues, their relationship has become closer in the last 3/4 years. The recent comments from some Iranians after the bomb attack was a form of protest for giving such a lavish welcome to the Saudi crown prince.

 

[mustang]

Pakistan having or not having political relations with Israel will make no difference to the plight of the Palestinians. As I wrote, Israel is not here to live happily with others, it is on a very serious mission which is to re-establish the kingdom of David. If anything, Pakistan would have been made to condemn acts against Israel and any silence would then be given the anti-semitic card.

As for Saudi, being the home of the holy sites Pakistan will always have relations with the rulers. Pakistan being a nuclear power, the Saudi's have decided to be good terms and have Pakistan as an insurance policy in case the western nations turn against them. After the murder of the journalist in Turkey, it was important for Bin Salman to strengthen those relationships with Pakistan for his peronal image. I dont believe Iran and Pakistan have any major issues, their relationship has become closer in the last 3/4 years. The recent comments from some Iranians after the bomb attack was a form of protest for giving such a lavish welcome to the Saudi crown prince.

Between the 2, whose relation does Pakistan value more - Iran or Saudi? If they have to pick one, whom will they pick?

 

[rhony]

Between the 2, whose relation does Pakistan value more - Iran or Saudi? If they have to pick one, whom will they pick?

They already chose Saudi

 

[ElRaja]

As for Saudi, being the home of the holy sites Pakistan will always have relations with the rulers. Pakistan being a nuclear power, the Saudi's have decided to be good terms and have Pakistan as an insurance policy in case the western nations turn against them. After the murder of the journalist in Turkey, it was important for Bin Salman to strengthen those relationships with Pakistan for his peronal image. I dont believe Iran and Pakistan have any major issues, their relationship has become closer in the last 3/4 years. The recent comments from some Iranians after the bomb attack was a form of protest for giving such a lavish welcome to the Saudi crown prince.

agree with u on salman needing to strengthen his personal image, disagree with you on nuclear weaponry forming a rationale for closer relations.

also given how many proxy conflicts iran is fighting with sa, i also tend to disagree with your last point. iran or sa will never accept pakistan developing a deeper relationship with the other.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Between the 2, whose relation does Pakistan value more - Iran or Saudi? If they have to pick one, whom will they pick?

The Saudis wanted Pakistan army to join in their Yemen war but this request was declined. Arabia is holy land so whoever is in charge will have good relations with Pakistan. Iran shares a border and so it's important to have good relations with your neighbour. I can't see any situation where Pakistan has to make a choice, unless Iran attack Mecca/Medina which is unlikely as they are Musims too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

agree with u on salman needing to strengthen his personal image, disagree with you on nuclear weaponry forming a rationale for closer relations.

also given how many proxy conflicts iran is fighting with sa, i also tend to disagree with your last point. iran or sa will never accept pakistan developing a deeper relationship with the other.

Saudi financed(some) Pakistan's venture of being a nuclear power. There are also many statements from Pakistan leaders going back to the 1970's, through to the 80's and 90's in relation to Paksitani nukes and Saudi Arabia. I think Saudi's have even visited some nuke sites in Pakistan. If Pakistan didn't have nukes, it would be like Iraq, Syria or Libya today imo.

 

[ElRaja]

Saudi financed(some) Pakistan's venture of being a nuclear power. There are also many statements from Pakistan leaders going back to the 1970's, through to the 80's and 90's in relation to Paksitani nukes and Saudi Arabia. I think Saudi's have even visited some nuke sites in Pakistan. If Pakistan didn't have nukes, it would be like Iraq, Syria or Libya today imo.

no doubt saudis and other arab countries helped finance paks nuclear program, but they got their returns too in the form of nuclear research and intelligence, that they chose not to go down that path had more to do with global geo political realignments and the general lack of use of nuclear weapons in any foreseeable conflicts, especially given how most developed countries now fight proxy, guerrilla and political wars more than territorial wars.

ur second point i think is an overstatement, but there is some truth to it. the prospect of conventional war with india post nuclear armament is virtually zero, however nukes notwithstanding Pakistan has always been far more involved in global geo politics on a deep level historically with the US especially, more so than the countries you mention, which makes its destabilisation not favourable for any country, least of all for it would mean upsetting china.

 

[KingKhanWC]

no doubt saudis and other arab countries helped finance paks nuclear program, but they got their returns too in the form of nuclear research and intelligence, that they chose not to go down that path had more to do with global geo political realignments and the general lack of use of nuclear weapons in any foreseeable conflicts, especially given how most developed countries now fight proxy, guerrilla and political wars more than territorial wars.

ur second point i think is an overstatement, but there is some truth to it. the prospect of conventional war with india post nuclear armament is virtually zero, however nukes notwithstanding Pakistan has always been far more involved in global geo politics on a deep level historically with the US especially, more so than the countries you mention, which makes its destabilisation not favourable for any country, least of all for it would mean upsetting china.

Bin Salman has other ideas. He is building over a dozen sites which will produce nuclear power. Of course it is claimed the power will be for energy but an oil rich nation isn't lacking in such resources or lack of money. Proxy wars maybe the flavour of current times but still cannot protect a nation if there is an all out war. It's just a matter of when not if Saudi aqquires nuclear weapons and US alongside others will want to earn plenty of $ from this.

Iraq and even Libya towards the end were also one time very close to the western nations, more so than Pakistan probably ever was. Iraq went to war with Iran for the US and the same dictator who was once a close ally was quickly turned into a villian and taken out. Pakistan would need strong support from China to wade off any such invasions. Even with nukes Pakistan has been attacked via proxy and not just the odd attack by a wave of attacks for over a decade.

 

[classic]

My fear is Israel and India jointly will work together and try to destabilise Pakistan by way of training in espionage. They have been known for doing this in the past.

 

[ElRaja]

Bin Salman has other ideas. He is building over a dozen sites which will produce nuclear power. Of course it is claimed the power will be for energy but an oil rich nation isn't lacking in such resources or lack of money. Proxy wars maybe the flavour of current times but still cannot protect a nation if there is an all out war. It's just a matter of when not if Saudi aqquires nuclear weapons and US alongside others will want to earn plenty of $ from this.

youve hit the nail on the head, saudi has enough resources that they could buy nuclear tech from pakistan whenever they want. trying to forge closer relations would be a superfluous exercise in that context since pak would never refuse saudi money anyway, not least for its position as protector of the holy sites.

Iraq and even Libya towards the end were also one time very close to the western nations, more so than Pakistan probably ever was. Iraq went to war with Iran for the US and the same dictator who was once a close ally was quickly turned into a villian and taken out. Pakistan would need strong support from China to wade off any such invasions. Even with nukes Pakistan has been attacked via proxy and not just the odd attack by a wave of attacks for over a decade.

libya and iraq arent great proxies for pakistan, pakistan never openly attacked foreign countries for the usa, and in bringing china into the western sphere of influence during the cold war Pakistan was an indispensible ally of the US, more so than either of those countries. also foreign incursions into pakistan have never even come close to destabilising the power structure of the country like iraq or libya.

nuclear weapons have done a great deal to insure pakistan and india dont wage full fledged war again, but regardless of whether pak had nukes or not pakistan has been around long enough that the construct of pakistan itself has become an identity. purely in my arguably incomplete understanding there are far less sect or tribe agnostic arabs in iraq and libya respectively, compared to Pakistan, which now has a fair chunk of people who are invested in the identity of Pakistan before other ethno linguistic factors.

 

[gazza619]

My fear is Israel and India jointly will work together and try to destabilise Pakistan by way of training in espionage. They have been known for doing this in the past.

India is friends with Iran and Pakistan isnt, and this makes a Pakistan Israel combo quite possible.

Of course in today’s changing world you got to identify very quickly who you want to be allies with and this anti Israel rage for 70 + years has not benefitted Pakistan in any way.

 

[PetroDollars]

India is friends with Iran and Pakistan isnt, and this makes a Pakistan Israel combo quite possible.

Of course in today’s changing world you got to identify very quickly who you want to be allies with and this anti Israel rage for 70 + years has not benefitted Pakistan in any way.

Mush has given a genius idea, why create an enemy with a powerful nation you can learn so much from, but
pakistanis will always come up with the most absurd theories to justify there conspiracies, probably shias were invented by jews to take over the muslim world now they have joined india and israel.

 

[Savak]

No idea why do we keep going out of our way to support these Arab states in the Israeli Palestinian conflict and other issues.

What have these Arab states ever done for Pakistan? Where are they right now in the Indian Pakistani conflict?

Heck forget the Arab states, where are the likes of Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan right now?

Why can't we make decisions in the national interest in the long run?

 

[Varun]

No idea why do we keep going out of our way to support these Arab states in the Israeli Palestinian conflict and other issues.

What have these Arab states ever done for Pakistan? Where are they right now in the Indian Pakistani conflict?

Heck forget the Arab states, where are the likes of Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan right now?

Why can't we make decisions in the national interest in the long run?

I know, talk about a dead investment.

 

[Ram Shekhar]

What an irresponsible statement to make! Friendship with butchers of Palestinians?

 

[Varun]

What an irresponsible statement to make! Friendship with butchers of Palestinians?

Yeah, why be friends with the butches of Palestinians when you can be friends with the butchers of Yemenis and Uyghurs instead?