Rivalries in Cricket (Pakistan vs England)

[ChTab]

As we all know cricket is a game which is not played by alot of countries at top level but we do have some great rivalries in cricket.

In recent years India and Australia have developed a strong rivalry with each other and now we've seen Pakistan and England playing each other regularly from the past few years in fact Pakistan has traveled to England every year since 2016.

So basically my question is can Pakistan versus England become an upcoming rivalry in the future somewhat like Ind vs Aus is right now?

 

[Mamoon]

Unless there is historic rivalry such as Ashes, Pakistan vs India, a proper rivalry can only develop if their some beef between the teams and they are on equal standing in terms of performances.

The India vs Australia rivalry kicked off when Australia’s decision to enforce follow-on in Kolkata blew in their faces and in spite of all they achieved in that era, that humiliation was never forgotten.

Since then, every India vs Australia series has had some drama and controversy and it added to the animosity between the two sides.

The rivalry was further consolidated when India became on par with Australia on the field from 2008 onwards and BCCI became more powerful than CA.

These days, Kohli is the perfect character to battle with Australians because he never takes any verbal crap from anyone. He has earned genuine respect in the Australian dressing room.

It is difficult for Pakistan to develop rivalry with England because of multiple reasons: first, PCB has no leverage on ECB. It cannot compete in terms of power.

Secondly, England is more “nicer” than Australia and it is hard to have a rivalry with them. India don’t have rivalry with them either even though they get thrashed in England the worst.

Also, Pakistan itself is a small team that is not taken seriously by the top sides anymore. Beating Pakistan home and away is no longer a top priority for the big 3 sides.

But Pakistan should be satisfied with their relationship with ECB. We get way too many matches in England than we deserve. They are the only big 3 board that has not only not shunned us out, they also play us more often than they should.

Moreover, the Sky team is always talking crap when it comes to Pakistan team. They overrate and exaggerate Pakistan cricket with cliches and cringeworthy pandering.

The likes of Nasser and Atherton turn into cheerleaders whenever Pakistan tour England, and you can tell that they are itching for Pakistan to beat England or to compete really well.

On the other hand, the Australians are always brutal in their assessment of Pakistan cricket and rightly so.

 

[ChTab]

But Pakistan should be satisfied with their relationship with ECB. We get way too many matches in England than we deserve. They are the only big 3 board that has not only not shunned us out, they also play us more often than they should.

I do agree with almost everything you said but Pakistan do deserve to play this much cricket in England.

They do have pretty decent record in England apart from ODI's but the ODI's that really mattered SF of 17 CT & league game of WC Pakistan did won both of those games.

We were excellent in 4 match test series in 2016 & we came extremely close to clinch the series but Pakistan bottled the 3rd test in 1 or 2 sessions on last day if I'm not wrong.

Again this past summer we were very close to win 1st test in Manchester but bottled because of 1 or 2 sessions & bad captaincy but we were lucky in last 2 test to get draws.

 

[Gullycricket]

Unless there is historic rivalry such as Ashes, Pakistan vs India, a proper rivalry can only develop if their some beef between the teams and they are on equal standing in terms of performances.

The India vs Australia rivalry kicked off when Australia’s decision to enforce follow-on in Kolkata blew in their faces and in spite of all they achieved in that era, that humiliation was never forgotten.

Since then, every India vs Australia series has had some drama and controversy and it added to the animosity between the two sides.

The rivalry was further consolidated when India became on par with Australia on the field from 2008 onwards and BCCI became more powerful than CA.

These days, Kohli is the perfect character to battle with Australians because he never takes any verbal crap from anyone. He has earned genuine respect in the Australian dressing room.

It is difficult for Pakistan to develop rivalry with England because of multiple reasons: first, PCB has no leverage on ECB. It cannot compete in terms of power.

Secondly, England is more “nicer” than Australia and it is hard to have a rivalry with them. India don’t have rivalry with them either even though they get thrashed in England the worst.

Also, Pakistan itself is a small team that is not taken seriously by the top sides anymore. Beating Pakistan home and away is no longer a top priority for the big 3 sides.

But Pakistan should be satisfied with their relationship with ECB. We get way too many matches in England than we deserve. They are the only big 3 board that has not only not shunned us out, they also play us more often than they should.

Moreover, the Sky team is always talking crap when it comes to Pakistan team. They overrate and exaggerate Pakistan cricket with cliches and cringeworthy pandering.

The likes of Nasser and Atherton turn into cheerleaders whenever Pakistan tour England, and you can tell that they are itching for Pakistan to beat England or to compete really well.

On the other hand, the Australians are always brutal in their assessment of Pakistan cricket and rightly so.

Aussies also talking nice of Indian cricket due to IPL. They are afraid of going ahead with too much sledging since a bad relationship with Indian cricketers means a death knell in terms of the money you can make. It's especially true with the person at helm of Indian cricket (Brat Kohli) who is prone to show childish emotions . Hayden called India a dump and today he is all praise for India, Ponting who was such a fierce rival is now meek and singing praises since being given a coaching gig. You have to be naive to believe that Aussies respect Indian cricketers. It's all $$$.
Coming to Nas, Atherton they don't have any such collateral to worry about hence their opinions are more balanced. They praise India but they also respect our achievements inspite of so many things holding us back. They don't wear blue tinted glasses like other commies. Anyways don't worry enjoy these insults you throw at our team for now. Like Nas, Atherton fans who follow the team know of the upcoming talent. Your time is running out since we are churning talent now again. Wait and watch

 

[Mesozoic]

So basically my question is can Pakistan versus England become an upcoming rivalry in the future somewhat like Ind vs Aus is right now?

England are currently the reigning world champions. Quite easily the best LOI team in the world cricket right now filled with superstars. And are certainly a top3 Test side.

OTOH.... Pakistan are barely better than the likes of Sri Lanka and West Indies (that too arguably) with barely two world class players across formats....

Point is..... there are usually two types of sporting rivalries.

One- Historical rivalry (Ind vs Pak, Aus Vs Eng, ManU v Liv, Real vs Barc, Lakers Vs Celts, AB vs Springboks....and so on and on and on

In this case, it doesn't really matter if one of the two teams deteriorates or one just goes out of the reach but there'll still be a lot of heat when they face off....

Second - Competitive rivalry (Ind vs Aus since early 2000s, Aus vs SAF throughout the 21st cent, Bayern vs Dortmund since the latter became a top side , United vs City/Arsenal etc etc).

Now tell me (honestly) does Pak vs Eng come under any of the above two?

There you have your answer.

 

[Rana]

Pakistan have dominated England in Test cricket at home since 2006, and have won enough Test matches in England as well.

Great rivalry

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

I like English cricket team. Their XI is always a solid one and almost all series against them are fun as a viewer

Plus, Pak always bring their A game against them.

 

[ChTab]

Unless there is historic rivalry such as Ashes, Pakistan vs India, a proper rivalry can only develop if their some beef between the teams and they are on equal standing in terms of performances.

The India vs Australia rivalry kicked off when Australia’s decision to enforce follow-on in Kolkata blew in their faces and in spite of all they achieved in that era, that humiliation was never forgotten.

Since then, every India vs Australia series has had some drama and controversy and it added to the animosity between the two sides.

The rivalry was further consolidated when India became on par with Australia on the field from 2008 onwards and BCCI became more powerful than CA.

These days, Kohli is the perfect character to battle with Australians because he never takes any verbal crap from anyone. He has earned genuine respect in the Australian dressing room.

It is difficult for Pakistan to develop rivalry with England because of multiple reasons: first, PCB has no leverage on ECB. It cannot compete in terms of power.

Secondly, England is more “nicer” than Australia and it is hard to have a rivalry with them. India don’t have rivalry with them either even though they get thrashed in England the worst.

Also, Pakistan itself is a small team that is not taken seriously by the top sides anymore. Beating Pakistan home and away is no longer a top priority for the big 3 sides.

But Pakistan should be satisfied with their relationship with ECB. We get way too many matches in England than we deserve. They are the only big 3 board that has not only not shunned us out, they also play us more often than they should.

Moreover, the Sky team is always talking crap when it comes to Pakistan team. They overrate and exaggerate Pakistan cricket with cliches and cringeworthy pandering.

The likes of Nasser and Atherton turn into cheerleaders whenever Pakistan tour England, and you can tell that they are itching for Pakistan to beat England or to compete really well.

On the other hand, the Australians are always brutal in their assessment of Pakistan cricket and rightly so.

Pakistan have dominated England in Test cricket at home since 2006, and have won enough Test matches in England as well.

Great rivalry

Plus Pakistan won both ODI matches in tournaments & 1 of them was semi final of CT. Now if Pakistan can keep the performances up vs England I do think there is a lot of potential in this rivalry.

 

[Rana]

It must hurt as an English fan when you beat a team left right and centre in meaningless bi laterals which are great for the bar revenue at stadiums, but then to be absolutely humiliated by that team when the whole world is watching at ICC tournaments.

 

[Rana]

Lol at India fans giving their views on Pak v England rivalry) they have been the whipping boys of the English pre partition and up to now )

 

[Hyperion66]

Aussies also talking nice of Indian cricket due to IPL. They are afraid of going ahead with too much sledging since a bad relationship with Indian cricketers means a death knell in terms of the money you can make. It's especially true with the person at helm of Indian cricket (Brat Kohli) who is prone to show childish emotions . Hayden called India a dump and today he is all praise for India, Ponting who was such a fierce rival is now meek and singing praises since being given a coaching gig. You have to be naive to believe that Aussies respect Indian cricketers. It's all $$$.
Coming to Nas, Atherton they don't have any such collateral to worry about hence their opinions are more balanced. They praise India but they also respect our achievements inspite of so many things holding us back. They don't wear blue tinted glasses like other commies. Anyways don't worry enjoy these insults you throw at our team for now. Like Nas, Atherton fans who follow the team know of the upcoming talent. Your time is running out since we are churning talent now again. Wait and watch

Toh tum log bhi paise banalo and create something like IPL, grow clout, become influential. kisne mana kiya hai?

Ontopic: Rivalries can not be created, they are natural phenomena, it has to have some context preferably historical bitterness or something along the same lines Pak's reasonably good performance in Eng over the years is not reason enough.

Ontopic

 

[silentkiller187]

Unless there is historic rivalry such as Ashes, Pakistan vs India, a proper rivalry can only develop if their some beef between the teams and they are on equal standing in terms of performances.

The India vs Australia rivalry kicked off when Australia’s decision to enforce follow-on in Kolkata blew in their faces and in spite of all they achieved in that era, that humiliation was never forgotten.

Since then, every India vs Australia series has had some drama and controversy and it added to the animosity between the two sides.

The rivalry was further consolidated when India became on par with Australia on the field from 2008 onwards and BCCI became more powerful than CA.

These days, Kohli is the perfect character to battle with Australians because he never takes any verbal crap from anyone. He has earned genuine respect in the Australian dressing room.

It is difficult for Pakistan to develop rivalry with England because of multiple reasons: first, PCB has no leverage on ECB. It cannot compete in terms of power.

Secondly, England is more “nicer” than Australia and it is hard to have a rivalry with them. India don’t have rivalry with them either even though they get thrashed in England the worst.

Also, Pakistan itself is a small team that is not taken seriously by the top sides anymore. Beating Pakistan home and away is no longer a top priority for the big 3 sides.

But Pakistan should be satisfied with their relationship with ECB. We get way too many matches in England than we deserve. They are the only big 3 board that has not only not shunned us out, they also play us more often than they should.

Moreover, the Sky team is always talking crap when it comes to Pakistan team. They overrate and exaggerate Pakistan cricket with cliches and cringeworthy pandering.

The likes of Nasser and Atherton turn into cheerleaders whenever Pakistan tour England, and you can tell that they are itching for Pakistan to beat England or to compete really well.

On the other hand, the Australians are always brutal in their assessment of Pakistan cricket and rightly so.

i see that as a form of genuine affection, they have no need to pander up to Pakistan, absolutely none what's so ever, now if you look at the recently concluded IPL, the bravado and sucking up that took place there was definitely all about the $$$ , Aussies may be brutal about Pakistan but they used to be far more brutal about India, coincidence this has all stopped once the IPL picked up, and who can blame them, easy pay packet why not.

Rivalry wise i can see something brewing between Pak and Afghanistan the more they develop, ENG PAK has mellowed out since the 90's early 00's, a lot more mutual respect especially now ECB own boy Wasim is at the helm.

 

[Mamoon]

It must hurt as an English fan when you beat a team left right and centre in meaningless bi laterals which are great for the bar revenue at stadiums, but then to be absolutely humiliated by that team when the whole world is watching at ICC tournaments.

They won the World Cup. The loss to Pakistan hurt them as much as losing to India hurt Pakistan in 1992.

 

[Mamoon]

i see that as a form of genuine affection, they have no need to pander up to Pakistan, absolutely none what's so ever, now if you look at the recently concluded IPL, the bravado and sucking up that took place there was definitely all about the $$$ , Aussies may be brutal about Pakistan but they used to be far more brutal about India, coincidence this has all stopped once the IPL picked up, and who can blame them, easy pay packet why not.

Rivalry wise i can see something brewing between Pak and Afghanistan the more they develop, ENG PAK has mellowed out since the 90's early 00's, a lot more mutual respect especially now ECB own boy Wasim is at the helm.

Nasser and Atherton must have lost their marbles if they have genuine affection for this Pakistan team.

 

[Rana]

They won the World Cup. The loss to Pakistan hurt them as much as losing to India hurt Pakistan in 1992.

But who has the bragging rights? Did you see how Ian Botham was crying/pleading to the Durham Groundstaff to make a flat deck so that they can somehow knock Pakistan out by ensuring a win against NZ...because of how they were apparently robbed by us in 1992...this solidifying the Legendary status of Imran Khan over Ian Botham.

There is so much history, dynamics involved here. Great Rivalry

 

[silentkiller187]

Nasser and Atherton must have lost their marbles if they have genuine affection for this Pakistan team.

Only people losing their marbles are the anonymous posters on this forum, who don't even have respect of their own peers.

Nasser and Atherton seem very genuine, very professional and highly rated and respected across their board, i know who i would rather listen to.

 

[Rana]

Only people losing their marbles are the anonymous posters on this forum, who don't even have respect of their own peers.

Nasser and Atherton seem very genuine, very professional and highly rated and respected across their board, i know who i would rather listen to.

I might want to listen to Mamoon over Atherton....




























if i have lost my marbles.

 

[Markhor]

PAK-ENG is a genuine rivalry though given the history of acrimony from Idris Beg, partisan umpiring, Gatting-Rana, ball tampering, pitch dancing and spot fixing.

The last 4-5 series while without off-field drama has been competitive on the field.

 

[Mamoon]

But who has the bragging rights? Did you see how Ian Botham was crying/pleading to the Durham Groundstaff to make a flat deck so that they can somehow knock Pakistan out by ensuring a win against NZ...because of how they were apparently robbed by us in 1992...this solidifying the Legendary status of Imran Khan over Ian Botham.

There is so much history, dynamics involved here. Great Rivalry

England have the bragging rights. They are World Cup winners + number 1 ranked team in ODIs and T20Is and also ranked higher than Pakistan in Tests.

But if you think Pakistan have the bragging rights, I am sure England will be happy to see Pakistan hold the “bragging rights” trophy while they hold the World Cup trophy and the number 1 rank in ODIs and T20Is,

just like Pakistan will be happy for England and everyone else to hold the “bragging rights” trophy if it means Pakistan win the World Cup and achieve number 1 ranking in both white ball formats at the same time.

England’s only actively rivalry is with Australia. History alone is not enough because very few teams play cricket, so if we go by history alone than there is rivalry between every team.

 

[Mamoon]

Only people losing their marbles are the anonymous posters on this forum, who don't even have respect of their own peers.

Nasser and Atherton seem very genuine, very professional and highly rated and respected across their board, i know who i would rather listen to.

Their cheerleading for Pakistan doesn’t seem genuine to me.

 

[Heisenberg111]

In the last 4 decades in test matches, Pakistan won 20, England won 15. That says it all really.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Lol at India fans giving their views on Pak v England rivalry) they have been the whipping boys of the English pre partition and up to now )

Really?
I just checked our record vs england this century.

Tests-won 12 lost 15
Odi won 37 lost 23
T20s won 7 lost 7
Overall 56 wins and 45 losses.
So much for being whipping boys.

Actually england has always been a below par team in lois except under morgan.

 

[Babbar]

Pak-BD was a very interesting and heated cricket rivalry building up in early 2000s. Unfortunately, BD couldn’t keep the momentum and has now become a certified minnow. But there’s a potential.

 

[Mamoon]

Before people force this so-called rivalry down our throats, it is important to define what rivalry is in cricket terms.

If you don’t prefer to beat a particular team over another, do you really have a rivalry with that particular team?

Would England prefer to beat Pakistan away over beating India?

Clearly not, they would rather win in India over win in Pakistan any day. So what rivalry?

Unfortunately, the real issue here is that Pakistani fans want to feel important. This idea that a big 3 board considers Pakistan a rival is comforting and distracts them from the fact that Pakistan is a poster boy of mediocrity and today belongs in the league of second grade teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.

England doesn’t consider us a rival so please don’t force this rivalry down their throats. Rivalry is earned not begged for.

 

[Heisenberg111]

England have the bragging rights. They are World Cup winners + number 1 ranked team in ODIs and T20Is and also ranked higher than Pakistan in Tests.

But if you think Pakistan have the bragging rights, I am sure England will be happy to see Pakistan hold the “bragging rights” trophy while they hold the World Cup trophy and the number 1 rank in ODIs and T20Is,

just like Pakistan will be happy for England and everyone else to hold the “bragging rights” trophy if it means Pakistan win the World Cup and achieve number 1 ranking in both white ball formats at the same time.

England’s only actively rivalry is with Australia. History alone is not enough because very few teams play cricket, so if we go by history alone than there is rivalry between every team.

Then, Australia's only active rivalry is only with England too, because Pakistan has a much better record in test cricket against England, than India's record against Australia.

 

[Mamoon]

In the last 4 decades in test matches, Pakistan won 20, England won 15. That says it all really.

Head to head record does not determine whether there is rivalry or not.

 

[Mamoon]

Then, Australia's only active rivalry is only with England too, because Pakistan has a much better record in test cricket against England, than India's record against Australia.

Again, rivalry has nothing to do with head to head record.

There was no match on the field between Australia and England throughout the 90s but the Ashes rivalry didn’t die.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Before people force this so-called rivalry down our throats, it is important to define what rivalry is in cricket terms.

If you don’t prefer to beat a particular team over another, do you really have a rivalry with that particular team?

Would England prefer to beat Pakistan away over beating India?

Clearly not, they would rather win in India over win in Pakistan any day. So what rivalry?

Unfortunately, the real issue here is that Pakistani fans want to feel important. This idea that a big 3 board considers Pakistan a rival is comforting and distracts them from the fact that Pakistan is a poster boy of mediocrity and today belongs in the league of second grade teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.

England doesn’t consider us a rival so please don’t force this rivalry down their throats. Rivalry is earned not begged for.

Nonsense, England just won a test series against Pakistan after Pakistan went 4 series unbeaten against them. Tell me when India achieves the same against Australia.

 

[Mamoon]

Nonsense, England just won a test series against Pakistan after Pakistan went 4 series unbeaten against them. Tell me when India achieves the same against Australia.

For the third time, rivalry has very little to do with on-field results.

 

[UzmanBeast]

I think that Pakistan vs England creates a good, competitive environment where two teams of different strengths are pitted together. England have their excellent batting, whereas the notable aspect of Pakistan has been our bowling. Test matches are enjoyable, and we often draw test series in England, probably being the only subcontinent team that challenges England in their own conditions to a high degree. It is good to see this competitive environment, and one can hope that it will get more entertaining if England tour Pakistan and are defeated.

 

[Rana]

Whenever there is talk about respect and friendship between the big 3 and Pakistan...Mamoon must behave like a jealous ex wife such as Reham Khan.

 

[UzmanBeast]

For the third time, rivalry has very little to do with on-field results.

Whilst I do agree with what you're saying, I'd also wouldn't call England vs Pakistan a rivalry. It's basically a series where there is good competition, and Pakistan competes with England a lot. Even that ODI series we lost 5-0, it's not like we didn't set up competitive totals. Those were very high scoring games, it was our bowling that let us down. And the English crowd is also very supportive of Pakistan, so I think that both boards and teams enjoy competing with each other.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Head to head record does not determine whether there is rivalry or not.

You do realize Pakistan has a superior H2H against England in the last 4 decades despite playing a lot more in England than England has played in Pakistan or UAE. Pakistan have played almost double the amount of matches played in England than they have played in Pakistan or UAE. Still there H2H is superior, that in itself deserves admiration and respect.

 

[Mamoon]

Whenever there is talk about respect and friendship between the big 3 and Pakistan...Mamoon must behave like a jealous ex wife such as Reham Khan.

I’m telling you facts that you don’t want to hear because they hurt.

England does not consider us their rival. End of story.

 

[Mamoon]

You do realize Pakistan has a superior H2H against England in the last 4 decades despite playing a lot more in England than England has played in Pakistan or UAE. Pakistan have played almost double the amount of matches played in England than they have played in Pakistan or UAE. Still there H2H is superior, that in itself deserves admiration and respect.

Admiration and respect are not equal to rivalry.

 

[Rana]

I’m telling you facts that you don’t want to hear because they hurt.

England does not consider us their rival. End of story.

England does not even truly consider Australia its sworn rival, they are friends/brothers off the field.

The only real, meaningful rivalries in International cricket are between the Asian sides and this is very much dictated by the political dynamics involved.

considering the friendly/ supporting nature of cricketing rivalries outside of Asia...England and Pakistan is quite a historical encounter and has produced some of the most talked about moments in cricket. But the best thing about this is the relationship between the two countries is also very cordial. That might be killing you from the inside

 

[Mamoon]

England does not even truly consider Australia its sworn rival, they are friends/brothers off the field.

The only real, meaningful rivalries in International cricket are between the Asian sides and this is very much dictated by the political dynamics involved.

considering the friendly/ supporting nature of cricketing rivalries outside of Asia...England and Pakistan is quite a historical encounter and has produced some of the most talked about moments in cricket. But the best thing about this is the relationship between the two countries is also very cordial. That might be killing you from the inside

Rivalry in cricket/sports in general is not always political. There are multiple facets to a rivalry. In fact, very very few rivalries in sports are political.

To be a rival, you do not have to take a rocket launcher to the ground and try to blow the other team’s head off. Rivalry means that results against your rival matter more to you than against other teams.

England have a cricket rivalry with Australia because of the Ashes which means that given a choice, England would rather win in Australia rather than South Africa or New Zealand, and same goes for Australia.

You give a choice to Australia between losing at home to South Africa or England, and they will choose South Africa every time.

Pakistan and England do not have a rivalry because performances and results against Pakistan do not mean more to England than against other teams.

Unless England would prefer to win against Pakistan rather than India or South Africa for instance, which they obviously don’t, there is no rivalry between the two sides.

What kills me from inside is seeing the desperation of Pakistani to forcefully create a rivalry with a big 3 board when they latter doesn’t consider them their rival.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Before people force this so-called rivalry down our throats, it is important to define what rivalry is in cricket terms.

If you don’t prefer to beat a particular team over another, do you really have a rivalry with that particular team?

Would England prefer to beat Pakistan away over beating India?

Clearly not, they would rather win in India over win in Pakistan any day. So what rivalry?

Unfortunately, the real issue here is that Pakistani fans want to feel important. This idea that a big 3 board considers Pakistan a rival is comforting and distracts them from the fact that Pakistan is a poster boy of mediocrity and today belongs in the league of second grade teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc.

England doesn’t consider us a rival so please don’t force this rivalry down their throats. Rivalry is earned not begged for.

FYI, England has only won 2 away matches against Pakistan in their entire history. While they have won 13 matches in India. Success against Pakistan away has clearly been very rare for England.

 

[nextover666666]

England are currently the reigning world champions. Quite easily the best LOI team in the world cricket right now filled with superstars. And are certainly a top3 Test side.

OTOH.... Pakistan are barely better than the likes of Sri Lanka and West Indies (that too arguably) with barely two world class players across formats....

Point is..... there are usually two types of sporting rivalries.

One- Historical rivalry (Ind vs Pak, Aus Vs Eng, ManU v Liv, Real vs Barc, Lakers Vs Celts, AB vs Springboks....and so on and on and on

In this case, it doesn't really matter if one of the two teams deteriorates or one just goes out of the reach but there'll still be a lot of heat when they face off....

Second - Competitive rivalry (Ind vs Aus since early 2000s, Aus vs SAF throughout the 21st cent, Bayern vs Dortmund since the latter became a top side , United vs City/Arsenal etc etc).

Now tell me (honestly) does Pak vs Eng come under any of the above two?

There you have your answer.

Pakistan does have historical rivalr when they play their is a big turn out to watch matches
Typical Indian fan always want to downplay Pakistan lol

 

[Mamoon]

FYI, England has only won 2 away matches against Pakistan in their entire history. While they have won 13 matches in India. Success against Pakistan away has clearly been very rare for England.

And it doesn’t matter to them because Indian cricket left Pakistan cricket in its dust long ago.

A lot of teams still have inferior head to heard records against West Indies because of the battering they received in the 70s and 80s.

However, today, the big teams don’t prioritize winning in West Indies over winning against each other.

So England would choose winning a series in India rather than winning a series in West Indies, even though historically winning vs West Indies has been harder.

 

[Rana]

Record number of ballot applicants to watch England lose to Pakistan in Birmingham next summer.

 

[Heisenberg111]

And it doesn’t matter to them because Indian cricket left Pakistan cricket in its dust long ago.

A lot of teams still have inferior head to heard records against West Indies because of the battering they received in the 70s and 80s.

However, today, the big teams don’t prioritize winning in West Indies over winning against each other.

So England would choose winning a series in India rather than winning a series in West Indies, even though historically winning vs West Indies has been harder.

Again, check before posting, out of all the major top 8 teams, only England and India have an inferior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.. All the other teams have a superior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

The reality is that in today’s dynamics of the game, only results against Australia/India/England matter.

If England beats India away, performances against Pakistan do not hold any value. In 2018, England drew with Pakistan but beat India.

Their summer was defined by the success against India rather than their failure to beat Pakistan.

Similarly, Australia’s success or failure in Asia is only determined by how they do in India. If they get whooped in India and they follow it up with wins in Pakistan and Sri Lanka, it wouldn’t matter one bit.

 

[Mamoon]

Again, check before posting, out of all the major top 8 teams, only England and India have an inferior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.. All the other teams have a superior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.

And you can stick to England and India.
Neither of these two teams would prioritize beating West Indies over beating each other right now, simply because West Indies, much like Pakistan, is viewed as a mediocre team.

 

[Rana]

Love the banter amongst work colleagues and cricket clubs when England and Pakistan are playing. It is hard to explain this to a guy with zero exposure to western culture besides movies.

 

[Rana]

England v West indies as a serious rivalry too. The windies players turn up and want to pump the English more often than not.

 

[Mamoon]

Love the banter amongst work colleagues and cricket clubs when England and Pakistan are playing. It is hard to explain this to a guy with zero exposure to western culture besides movies.

This banter would take place between English and Indians as well.

It would also exist between Kiwi Indians and local Kiwis.

It is hard to explain simple stuff to delusional Pakistani fans.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

England are currently the reigning world champions. Quite easily the best LOI team in the world cricket right now filled with superstars. And are certainly a top3 Test side.

OTOH.... Pakistan are barely better than the likes of Sri Lanka and West Indies (that too arguably) with barely two world class players across formats....

Point is..... there are usually two types of sporting rivalries.

One- Historical rivalry (Ind vs Pak, Aus Vs Eng, ManU v Liv, Real vs Barc, Lakers Vs Celts, AB vs Springboks....and so on and on and on

In this case, it doesn't really matter if one of the two teams deteriorates or one just goes out of the reach but there'll still be a lot of heat when they face off....

Second - Competitive rivalry (Ind vs Aus since early 2000s, Aus vs SAF throughout the 21st cent, Bayern vs Dortmund since the latter became a top side , United vs City/Arsenal etc etc).

Now tell me (honestly) does Pak vs Eng come under any of the above two?

There you have your answer.

Your answer is from someone with no awareness of Pakistans cricketing history and perhaps cricketing history full stop.

The series definitely comes under the first category for a myriad of reasons ( imran v botham, reverse swing controveries, British tabloid press, gatting/rana, allan lamb complaints )

The series between these two sides have generally been quite lively for these reasons. Especially when Pakistan has come to these shores.

It's helped as many English writers/pundits played with the Pakistani greats ( imran, safraz, javed, wasim waqar) during their county days and for many many years the English were in complete awe how Pakistan would randomly pluck players out of nowhere into test cricket. Even in recent times we randomly selected Sohail Khan who took a 5fer and even once Wahab who also took a 5fer. Although these are relatively unique one off occurrences they live on in the mind of English commentators and pundits. Matches were always spicy affairs with raucous crowds, pitch invasions etc.

Now all that stuff might be waning a bit and I don't know how long Pakistan can live off past conquests but to dismiss it as a rivalry is quite naive.

I'm saying this from a biased Pakistani perspective and I would stand corrected should any england fans feel otherwise.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Again, check before posting, out of all the major top 8 teams, only England and India have an inferior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.. All the other teams have a superior H2H against West Indies in test cricket.

And Winning in West Indies used to be tough till 2000. After that West Indies's W/L ratio at home is a very poor 0.71, that is why teams don't give much value to winning in the Caribbean now.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The reality is that in today’s dynamics of the game, only results against Australia/India/England matter.

If England beats India away, performances against Pakistan do not hold any value. In 2018, England drew with Pakistan but beat India.

Their summer was defined by the success against India rather than their failure to beat Pakistan.

Similarly, Australia’s success or failure in Asia is only determined by how they do in India. If they get whooped in India and they follow it up with wins in Pakistan and Sri Lanka, it wouldn’t matter one bit.

Englands delight at winning against India isn't an indication of a "rivalry" its because they were happy at winning against one of the top sides of the era and the impact of the victory was only because of India's ranking at the time.

Although, australia have definitely built up a rivalry against India because of some iconic duels.

 

[Rana]

This banter would take place between English and Indians as well.

It would also exist between Kiwi Indians and local Kiwis.

It is hard to explain simple stuff to delusional Pakistani fans.

So the rivalry is there with all of them? Did anyone claim England and India do not have a rivalry and only England and Pakistan have a rivalry?

 

[Heisenberg111]

And you can stick to England and India.
Neither of these two teams would prioritize beating West Indies over beating each other right now, simply because West Indies, much like Pakistan, is viewed as a mediocre team.

Putting West Indies and Pakistan at par shows how ignorant you are. Do you know about the difference in the W/L ratio of these two teams in the last 20-25 years ?

 

[Rana]

This apparently isn’t a rivalry according to Mamoon but the thread has hit 52 replies within a few hours.

What a joke!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

In all honesty the only real rivarly in modern cricket is the Ashes ( India and Pakistan no longer play and cant be included).

You ask any English/Australian fan and they will gladly lose 99 times out of 100 against India as long as the Ashes remained in their hands whenever they were contested. Anybody saying otherwise is delusional.

That may change over next 5-10 years as Indias dominance increases but it hasn't reached that level yet. Despite the delusions of Indians.

 

[Mamoon]

Englands delight at winning against India isn't an indication of a "rivalry" its because they were happy at winning against one of the top sides of the era and the impact of the victory was only because of India's ranking at the time.

Although, australia have definitely built up a rivalry against India because of some iconic duels.

Yes, I mentioned it earlier that England and India are not rivals.

The reason why I mentioned India is because if England actually considered Pakistan rivals, they would prefer beating Pakistan over England but that’s not the case.

In true rivalry, teams prioritize beating each other even when one team is really weak. That is why Pakistan vs India and Ashes are the only two proper rivalries in cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

So the rivalry is there with all of them? Did anyone claim England and India do not have a rivalry and only England and Pakistan have a rivalry?

Sure, that is one way of looking at it.

Since very few teams play cricket, there is some history between every team, so one can argue that everyone is everyone’s rival.

But if you believe that there is no point in trying to prove that Pakistan and England have rivalry. Then it becomes a moot point.

 

[Mamoon]

This apparently isn’t a rivalry according to Mamoon but the thread has hit 52 replies within a few hours.

What a joke!

Yes because it is incredible how hard it is for some people to comprehend something so simple. It shouldn’t have taken me more than 3 posts.

 

[Mamoon]

Putting West Indies and Pakistan at par shows how ignorant you are. Do you know about the difference in the W/L ratio of these two teams in the last 20-25 years ?

Perception built over 20-25 years doesn’t matter anymore. 25 years ago what was India’s status in the game and what is it today?

Pakistan’s status dropped from a top team to a middling team over the last 10 years. West Indies’ status dropped in the late 90s and early 2000’s.

Right now, Pakistan is categorized in the league of teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rather than the league of the big 3 and New Zealand.

South Africa is standing on the gateway between tier 1 and tier 2.

 

[szrana007]

FYI, England has only won 2 away matches against Pakistan in their entire history. While they have won 13 matches in India. Success against Pakistan away has clearly been very rare for England.

Wow, didn't realize that England have been so poor against Pakistan away from home. Always thought they wouldn't have won many, but winning 2 matches in their entirety of playing Pakistan are are just too few.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Perception built over 20-25 years doesn’t matter anymore. 25 years ago what was India’s status in the game and what is it today?

Pakistan’s status dropped from a top team to a middling team over the last 10 years. West Indies’ status dropped in the late 90s and early 2000’s.

Right now, Pakistan is categorized in the league of teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rather than the league of the big 3 and New Zealand.

South Africa is standing on the gateway between tier 1 and tier 2.

Again, there is no comparison between Pakistan and West Indies in the last 20 years in both ODI and test cricket. Pakistan is miles ahead. When was the last time West Indies won a test or an ODI series against Pakistan ?

 

[Rana]

The amount of mirchain Mamoon has at the thought of this. This thread should be kept alive as much as possible just to wind this guy up )

 

[Oxfordchamp]

There have been 2 tiers for a while now: big 3 and nz south Africa in the middle and the rest in the lower tier..
There is no rivalry between Pakistan and England..England rest their main players when Pakistan tours and do not treat it as a serious tour..

 

[Heisenberg111]

Wow, didn't realize that England have been so poor against Pakistan away from home. Always thought they wouldn't have won many, but winning 2 matches in their entirety of playing Pakistan are are just too few.

Yes but according to some winning in India has been a lot harder for England, lol.

 

[Rana]

There have been 2 tiers for a while now: big 3 and nz south Africa in the middle and the rest in the lower tier..
There is no rivalry between Pakistan and England..England rest their main players when Pakistan tours and do not treat it as a serious tour..

Oh yes, England rested its main players and had to play with their B team of Archer, Broad, Anderson, Woakes, Root, Stokes and Ollie Pope.

Just imagine the main players were playing in that Test series!

 

[Rana]

You’ve got to hand it to some of the Indian posters on this forum.

We have Thomaskutty, chief selector sahib who would pick Sanju Samson any day over Babar Azam

And also the Oxford Champion who claims England rested all of its main players when Pakistan come to England to tour )

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This rivalry is not what it used to be in the 90s. But the competitive nature of the series and the large crowds in the UK still makes it interesting.

 

[MMHS]

As we all know cricket is a game which is not played by alot of countries at top level but we do have some great rivalries in cricket.

In recent years India and Australia have developed a strong rivalry with each other and now we've seen Pakistan and England playing each other regularly from the past few years in fact Pakistan has traveled to England every year since 2016.

So basically my question is can Pakistan versus England become an upcoming rivalry in the future somewhat like Ind vs Aus is right now?

Indeed it can happen - there is a significant number of PAK diaspora in UK, who passionately follow PCT, even into their 3rd generation in UK basically without any roots of their PAK ancestors. One of my Canadian friend doesn't even carry PAK passport anymore and haven't been in PAK for many years (wife is a white Canadian), follows PCT more than Blue Jays. There is a significant number of Pakistani origin population in UK to make it a home like venue (better in Test cricket) - in that regard, it can definitely be a commercially successful rivalry. However, PCT has to match up the excitement & enthusiasm with on field cricket, otherwise this interest will diminish gradually. As I said, Germany-Hungary & England-Scotland were the fiercest and famous rivalry of soccer world,.... or like the Liverpool derby (LFC-Everton) - not any more on-field, though commercially still it's successful.

It's a bit difficult to draw parallel between PAK-ENG & IND-AUS, because apart from commercial aspects, gap in cricket between two teams are narrowing - IND is competing with AUS in AUS better than most teams, while AUS will always be among the best tourists in IND. In fact, on combined home & away basis, IND is probably AUS's toughest rivals in last 2 decades. On contrary, the gap between PAK & ENG is widening alarmingly and I don't see a turn around in near future - it'll grow wider at least for few more years. The biggest challenge will be to keep the "rivalry" intact during these tough years - after that, if indeed there is a turn around by PAK, why not?

 

[Mamoon]

Yes but according to some winning in India has been a lot harder for England, lol.

It is not about what is harder but what is more important.

In this era, beating India home or away is far more significant for any team than beating Pakistan home or away.

 

[Mamoon]

Again, there is no comparison between Pakistan and West Indies in the last 20 years in both ODI and test cricket. Pakistan is miles ahead. When was the last time West Indies won a test or an ODI series against Pakistan ?

Head to head is not the only criteria. There are more than two teams in cricket. Pakistan was England’s bogey team in Test cricket throughout the 2010s, but England was consistently viewed as a better team because they had more achievements and produced better results against the better sides.

Pakistan have the upper hand against West Indies in head to head matches because West Indies are very poor against spin bowling, but overall, if you look at the last 20 years or so, the gap between Pakistan and West Indies is not as big as you are making it seem like.

In the last 10 years alone, both Pakistan and West Indies have consistently found themselves 6th and 7th in ODI rankings.

Pakistan have only won 3 ODI series against the top sides in the last 14 years, West Indies probably have a similar record if not better.

Pakistan were ranked 1 in T20 cricket in 2017-18, but West Indies won 2 WT20s in this decade and must have spent some time at the top of the rankings too.

Both won a Champions Trophy due to fluke.

Pakistan does have one thing that West Indies don’t though. The did reach the summit of Test rankings in this decade, but then again, their run at the top didn’t last longer than an 80 year old impotent man in bed,

and the only reason they got there was because the 4th Test between India and West Indies was a washout, so Pakistan actually reached the 2nd spot.

So overall, in the last 20 years, Pakistan’s achievements have been more comparable to teams like West Indies rather than India, Australia and England, so Pakistan is not miles ahead of West Indies by any measure, unless you only judge teams by head to head, and by that logic, Bangladesh are 4-1 up against Pakistan in ODIs since 2015....

 

[Rajdeep]

Pakistani players need to polish their spoken english to have a rivalry with England or other western teams. Lets be honest, you consider someone a rival only if you can connect with them. Language & communication plays a key part in creating rivalry. England may admire skills of Pakistani players but does not have that connection to consider them as rival.

The only rivalry Pakistan team (still) has is with India and to a certain extent with BD.

 

[Rana]

Pakistani players need to polish their spoken english to have a rivalry with England or other western teams. Lets be honest, you consider someone a rival only if you can connect with them. Language & communication plays a key part in creating rivalry. England may admire skills of Pakistani players but does not have that connection to consider them as rival.

The only rivalry Pakistan team (still) has is with India and to a certain extent with BD.

Yes polish your English but try avoiding an English Indian accent. People will make fun of you behind your back if thats the case...

 

[Heisenberg111]

Head to head is not the only criteria. There are more than two teams in cricket. Pakistan was England’s bogey team in Test cricket throughout the 2010s, but England was consistently viewed as a better team because they had more achievements and produced better results against the better sides.

Pakistan have the upper hand against West Indies in head to head matches because West Indies are very poor against spin bowling, but overall, if you look at the last 20 years or so, the gap between Pakistan and West Indies is not as big as you are making it seem like.

In the last 10 years alone, both Pakistan and West Indies have consistently found themselves 6th and 7th in ODI rankings.

Pakistan have only won 3 ODI series against the top sides in the last 14 years, West Indies probably have a similar record if not better.

Pakistan were ranked 1 in T20 cricket in 2017-18, but West Indies won 2 WT20s in this decade and must have spent some time at the top of the rankings too.

Both won a Champions Trophy due to fluke.

Pakistan does have one thing that West Indies don’t though. The did reach the summit of Test rankings in this decade, but then again, their run at the top didn’t last longer than an 80 year old impotent man in bed,

and the only reason they got there was because the 4th Test between India and West Indies was a washout, so Pakistan actually reached the 2nd spot.

So overall, in the last 20 years, Pakistan’s achievements have been more comparable to teams like West Indies rather than India, Australia and England, so Pakistan is not miles ahead of West Indies by any measure, unless you only judge teams by head to head, and by that logic, Bangladesh are 4-1 up against Pakistan in ODIs since 2015....

Since 2000, in test cricket
Pakistan has a W/L ratio of 0.93
West Indies has a W/L ratio of 0.39

Since 2000, in ODI cricket
Pakistan has a W/L ratio of 1.18
West Indies has a W/L ratio of 0.69

I can only laugh at you, if you still think the W/L ratio of both teams are comparable in any format.

 

[hitthestump]

Their cheerleading for Pakistan doesn’t seem genuine to me.

Guys like Atherton and Nasser had their hearts won over during the 90's where the Pakistan side genuinely had a lot to admire about it. England was also one of the few teams against whom they used to consistently turn up against. It's hard to ask for a better ambassador for Pakistan than Wasim Akram so no wonder Athers in particular is probably taken in on the marvels of what the nation can produce.

What i see in those two is a desire to see Pakistan on top again. The admiration they had for us back then was genuine, and i'm on the view that they would love to see Pakistan again in the way they used to be - with raw skills, maverick characters, off-field charisma and the ability to win a match out of nowhere.

I think they believe Pakistan is the only nation who can produce that type of cricket. A Pakistan team on top, to them, is way more interesting and thus admirable than any other team could be.

 

[Mamoon]

Since 2000, in test cricket
Pakistan has a W/L ratio of 0.93
West Indies has a W/L ratio of 0.39

Since 2000, in ODI cricket
Pakistan has a W/L ratio of 1.18
West Indies has a W/L ratio of 0.69

I can only laugh at you, if you still think the W/L ratio of both teams are comparable in any format.

Pakistan has 3 ODI series wins against the top sides in 14 years. I don’t need W/L ratios because my memory doesn’t fail me.

 

[Rajdeep]

Yes polish your English but try avoiding an English Indian accent. People will make fun of you behind your back if thats the case...

Accent is different thing. West Indian players also has different accent but they were arch rivals with Australia. Are you denying that communication plays a key part in creating rivalry? Why you think Imran Khan had such global presence and players from Aust and Eng considered him as rival? Its due to his massive personality and communication skills.

No western team really connects with current Pakistani side, a side where a translator is required where ever the captain goes. As I said before, many admire skills of individual Pakistani players but would never have that connection to consider them as rival.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Pakistan has 3 ODI series wins against the top sides in 14 years. I don’t need W/L ratios because my memory doesn’t fail me.

Pakistan has almost 3 times better W/L ratio than West Indies in test cricket, in ODI's its almost 2 times better. But you can keep believing what you want to. Reality is West Indies hasn't beaten Pakistan in a ODI series since 1991, and in test series since 2000. And Pakistan isn't the only one, they haven't beaten Australia in a test series since 1993. Never beaten South Africa in a test series either. On the other hand, Pakistan has beaten all teams in a test series in the last 20 years. That says it all really.

 

[msb314]

Rivalry in cricket/sports in general is not always political. There are multiple facets to a rivalry. In fact, very very few rivalries in sports are political.

To be a rival, you do not have to take a rocket launcher to the ground and try to blow the other team’s head off. Rivalry means that results against your rival matter more to you than against other teams.

England have a cricket rivalry with Australia because of the Ashes which means that given a choice, England would rather win in Australia rather than South Africa or New Zealand, and same goes for Australia.

You give a choice to Australia between losing at home to South Africa or England, and they will choose South Africa every time.

Pakistan and England do not have a rivalry because performances and results against Pakistan do not mean more to England than against other teams.

Unless England would prefer to win against Pakistan rather than India or South Africa for instance, which they obviously don’t, there is no rivalry between the two sides.

What kills me from inside is seeing the desperation of Pakistani to forcefully create a rivalry with a big 3 board when they latter doesn’t consider them their rival.

Not sure I agree with you on this.

England and Pakistan will always have a rivalry IMO due to our historical relationship with them (former Commonweath colony..) and the large British influence that still exists in Pakistan.

Not to mention British ties that many of our ex-players have i. e IK, Wasim Akram, Majid Khan etc.

Also recent off-field events such as the ball tapering saga of 2006, Spot fixing Scandal in 2010 and the subsequent remarks by Ejaz Butt have added drama and spice to the rivalry!

 

[Mesozoic]

Pakistan does have historical rivalr when they play their is a big turn out to watch matches
Typical Indian fan always want to downplay Pakistan lol

So Big turnouts imply a rivalry?

You have downplayed it yourself pal. No need of "typical Indian fan".

 

[Hasan123]

There is no rivalry between England and Pakistan. Teams seem friendly between each other and Pakistan being a poor team doesn't help.

England's main rival is Australia. After that I would say it's India due to the fact they have 5 tests with them.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Accent is different thing. West Indian players also has different accent but they were arch rivals with Australia. Are you denying that communication plays a key part in creating rivalry? Why you think Imran Khan had such global presence and players from Aust and Eng considered him as rival? Its due to his massive personality and communication skills.

No western team really connects with current Pakistani side, a side where a translator is required where ever the captain goes. As I said before, many admire skills of individual Pakistani players but would never have that connection to consider them as rival.

Communication plays no part in creating a rivalry at an individual level. Absolutely zero.

Javed Miandad and ranatunga for instance had low english skills but big on field impacts that created a number of individual rivalries.