Russia responsible for downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17, UN body rules [Update@ Post#128]

[shaykh]

KKWC...I think the best argument is the rebels shot it down...

But I don't blame them...they were being attacked by Ukrainian planes and had already shot down two that week...States with advanced intelligence and situational awareness have shot down civilian planes by mistake so why expect any better from a bunch of amateurs?...

Any presumption that this could be deliberate is of course ludicrous because it serves no purpose for the Russians or the rebels...

However i have posted a separate thread on the subject...the airlines have to take a lot of responsibility here...

The Ukrainians claimed that the rebels had access to surface to air missiles which evidently seems true so why did their air traffic control and the airlines themselves make that airspace an APPROVED route...if that was my family on the plane i would be asking that question...

Why were my family flying in an area where planes were being shot down?...and essentially it comes down to fuel and money...it was a cheaper option...

Aviation safety authorities have advised against flying in Eastern Ukraine altogether but airlines chose the safer option...

I really don't blame the rebels if they shot down this plane...they are under attack from Ukrainian forces...I blame those who put the plane in a position to be attacked in the first place...

There is of course one idea which is interesting which is the fact that the plane took a 300 mile diversion and was even more in range than previous planes...the link is in my own thread...and also recordings between Ukrainian air traffic control and the crew members of the MH17 have been confiscated by the Ukrainian security services and no-one has asked for these yet...is it possible the Ukrainians deliberately put that plane at risk?...we will unfortunately never know why the plane took that diversion in the first place...but as i will say regardless even with that diversion it was an APPROVED route which is frankly disgraceful...

The airlines have a lot to answer for...now they are all avoiding Eastern Ukraine when they should have been doing that from the very beginning...

 

[shaykh]

Better late than never, but I'd like to thank you for raising concerns on behalf of the Dutch in their absence.

This isn't a war crime...

 

[shaykh]

Indeed so why are you accusing the Ukrainian military of firing a weapon that wasn't even in the area ? Ukraine's air force can easily differentiate between civilian and military aircraft - one would assume a band of terrorists (which these 'rebels' are) could not.

The rebels themselves have shot down Ukrainian military aircraft in the last few months - who is to say that they mistook the Malaysian jet for a Ukrainian military aircraft ? Separatists themselves were quoted in Russian media last month saying they had acquired a long-range SA-11 BUK anti-aircraft system. These BUK missiles have a range of 72,000ft - the aircraft was flying at around 32,000ft.


You're overstating Ukrainian military strength and understating rebel military strength, the pro-Russian rebels have held the eastern region since the start of the conflict and forcibly seized government buildings in the east.

Increasingly sophisticated weaponry has appeared in separatist hands in recent weeks, including tanks, Grad multiple rocked launchers, and at least one tracked Strela-10 surface-to-air missile launcher which rebels said was responsible for downing the AN-26. This is not some ragtag army but a well-trained, Kremlin funded army that is terrorising eastern Ukraine and they have no right to be there.


No that is not how it started.

Yanukovych - a Russian puppet refused to sign an EU Association Agreement that would have provided huge economic benefits to Ukraine in favour of Russian cash which lord knows where that would have ended up - most likely in the pockets of the pro-Russian oligarchs that ruled Ukraine for years. People rightfully protested as a result.

Ukraine's economic output could grow an additional 1 percent a year because of increased exports in goods and services, as well as more European investment in Ukraine. Ukrainian exporters will save almost 500 million euros a year because they no longer have to pay customs duties.

Putin didn't want it to happen as he still has imperialist pretensions in the area (which is just as condemnation-worthy as Western imperalism KKWC), threw a fit and has funded and armed an insurgency that has brought Ukraine to the point of ruin.


Eastern Ukraine is NOT their area. It is Ukraine's area - and there was no aggression in Eastern Ukraine that provoked this Russian response.

The pro-Russian rebels seized govt buildings by force and held a farcical referendum to break away from Ukraine. No other country would tolerate such a thing.

Hmm...just on the point of no right to be there...the US is funding Ukraine so its only fair that Russia evens it up by supporting the rebels...

Coming from someone who was in Odessa for the riots...and lives not far away...most Ukrainians are pretty ****** at how their country is a playground between the USA and Russia...

 

[Markhor]

KKWC...I think the best argument is the rebels shot it down...

But I don't blame them...they were being attacked by Ukrainian planes and had already shot down two that week...States with advanced intelligence and situational awareness have shot down civilian planes by mistake so why expect any better from a bunch of amateurs?...

Any presumption that this could be deliberate is of course ludicrous because it serves no purpose for the Russians or the rebels...

However i have posted a separate thread on the subject...the airlines have to take a lot of responsibility here...

The Ukrainians claimed that the rebels had access to surface to air missiles which evidently seems true so why did their air traffic control and the airlines themselves make that airspace an APPROVED route...if that was my family on the plane i would be asking that question...

Why were my family flying in an area where planes were being shot down?...and essentially it comes down to fuel and money...it was a cheaper option...

Aviation safety authorities have advised against flying in Eastern Ukraine altogether but airlines chose the safer option...

I really don't blame the rebels if they shot down this plane...they are under attack from Ukrainian forces...I blame those who put the plane in a position to be attacked in the first place...

There is of course one idea which is interesting which is the fact that the plane took a 300 mile diversion and was even more in range than previous planes...the link is in my own thread...and also recordings between Ukrainian air traffic control and the crew members of the MH17 have been confiscated by the Ukrainian security services and no-one has asked for these yet...is it possible the Ukrainians deliberately put that plane at risk?...we will unfortunately never know why the plane took that diversion in the first place...but as i will say regardless even with that diversion it was an APPROVED route which is frankly disgraceful...

The airlines have a lot to answer for...now they are all avoiding Eastern Ukraine when they should have been doing that from the very beginning...

Good to see you back on PP shaykh, haven't seen you for a while.

Agreed this was not a deliberate act. As for the airlines - it was extremely reckless for them to be flying over a warzone, where there had been several air strikes and incidents over the last few days. Qantas, PIA and British Airways all have discontinued the Ukraine route months ago - choosing to bear the extra cost and fuel charges for a longer route.

However it appears that aviation authorities did NOT deem the Ukrainian route unsafe. The International Civil Aviation Organisation and International Air Transportation Association gave the route the all-clear. Some major questions must be asked of them - apologies and compensation to the families is in order.

 

[Markhor]

PIA discontinued Ukraine routes months ago

http://www.dawn.com/news/1120083

KARACHI: National carrier Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) on Friday said it stopped all flights flying over Ukraine nearly three months ago after tensions between Russia and Ukraine escalated over territorial control of Crimea.

As international carriers diverted flights going through Ukranian airspace in the aftermath of the deadly Malaysian Airlines jetliner crash on Thursday, spokesperson for PIA Mashood Tajwar told Dawn that the airline had made a decision to stop flying via Ukrainian airspace for security reasons.

“Our flight operations department constantly monitors all routes and paths. When the Crimea crisis developed earlier this year, we received a report that a [military] plane had been shot down by insurgents. At this point the decision to halt this route was taken.”

Tajwar said that while airspace over the region was earlier under Russian control, it came under dispute between Ukraine and Russia when tensions between the countries soared, making it unclear which of them would be authorised to grant flying permission.

“Ukraine said Russia no longer has control over that airspace,” he added

For Asia flights flying West, Tajwar said there are three possible flight routes; North (Russian airspace), South (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Caspian Sea etc) and Ukraine/Crimea.

“The Ukraine route is preferred because it is less time-consuming. The others take up to 20 minutes extra flight time compared with the other routes, which means more time and fuel cost. We decided to bear that extra burden and discontinue using Ukrainian airspace,” he said.

According to Tajwar, PIA had at least five flights going via Ukranian airspace per week.

“It is difficult to quantify extra costs as it varies with each airline, however, if you are flying a Boeing 777, an extra 10 to 15 minutes can incur costs of Rs1 million,” Tajwar said.

At the end, the spokesperson said that the change in flight operations was not announced to the public as it was an internal operational matter.

Ukraine has accused “terrorists” - militants fighting to unite eastern Ukraine with Russia - of shooting down the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 with a heavy, Soviet-era ground-to-air missile as it flew from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The Telegraph reported that South Korea's main airlines, Korean Air and Asiana, as well as Australia's Qantas and Taiwan's China Airlines said they had re-routed flights from the beginning of March when Russian troops moved into Crimea.

The report also quoted Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak as saying that Malaysian Airlines had not taken similar precautions because the route had been deemed secure.

"The aircraft's flight route was declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. And (the) International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions," he said.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

British media ratcheting up anti Putin propaganda and holding him personally responsible. Shameless scoring of political points by our politicians but it will end up being an own goal as Europe/Nato is powerless against Russia.

 

[shaykh]

Good to see you back on PP shaykh, haven't seen you for a while.

Agreed this was not a deliberate act. As for the airlines - it was extremely reckless for them to be flying over a warzone, where there had been several air strikes and incidents over the last few days. Qantas, PIA and British Airways all have discontinued the Ukraine route months ago - choosing to bear the extra cost and fuel charges for a longer route.

However it appears that aviation authorities did NOT deem the Ukrainian route unsafe. The International Civil Aviation Organisation and International Air Transportation Association gave the route the all-clear. Some major questions must be asked of them - apologies and compensation to the families is in order.

Good to be back...

Thanks for the links about the other airlines...

I am appalled at what a bit of cost saving has led to and i hope action is taken against the relevant aviation authorities and airlines...

What do you make of the plane being diverted btw?....and the SBU confiscation of air traffic control tapes?...even if it was shamefully an approved route why was it diverted?...

 

[tahir_dj]

Anyone believe it or not the plane was **** down by ukranians
British media is always one sided
You have to look who benefited from this the most and in this case europe/nato and these scums will do anything for their own benefit even if they have to kill their own people.

 

[shaykh]

Anyone believe it or not the plane was **** down by ukranians
British media is always one sided
You have to look who benefited from this the most and in this case europe/nato and these scums will do anything for their own benefit even if they have to kill their own people.

I still think 'accident' is the best explanation and that the rebels did it but I don't blame them whatsoever...they celebrated shooting down a military plane...

If you do feel the Ukrainians did this...the more plausible argument is that they put that plane in range to get shot...why was the plane diverted from its normal route?...why have the recordings of air traffic control been confiscated?...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Anyone believe it or not the plane was **** down by ukranians
British media is always one sided
You have to look who benefited from this the most and in this case europe/nato and these scums will do anything for their own benefit even if they have to kill their own people.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[AFG_Brit]

PIA discontinued Ukraine routes months ago

http://www.dawn.com/news/1120083

This can't be true. A friend of mine flew back from pakistan via PIA last week and the plane flew over ukraine. He even took pictures of the route map on his mobile ( don't know why he but did).

 

[Chickenkorma]

Anyone believe it or not the plane was **** down by ukranians
British media is always one sided
You have to look who benefited from this the most and in this case europe/nato and these scums will do anything for their own benefit even if they have to kill their own people.

Why do you people have to hijack every single conflict? This is a legitimate struggle by the Ukrainians to maintain sovereignty. Stop hijacking their struggle to show off your anti west sentiment - it's totally irrelevant... If you have any proof share it ... Otherwise shut your mouth.

It's disgusting that you find it reasonable to slander an entire nation of people who have lost so much just to continue crapping out anti western propaganda.

 

[shaykh]

Why do you people have to hijack every single conflict? This is a legitimate struggle by the Ukrainians to maintain sovereignty. Stop hijacking their struggle to show off your anti west sentiment - it's totally irrelevant... If you have any proof share it ... Otherwise shut your mouth.

It's disgusting that you find it reasonable to slander an entire nation of people who have lost so much just to continue crapping out anti western propaganda.

in fairness your position is as biased as his is...and most ukrainians are aware of that...

Ukraine has been hijacked by two nations...the US and Russia...

The Ukrainian government isn't sovereign...it is not fighting for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather it is fighting for Western interests...

The rebels are simply Russia's response to a conflict that was brought to them...

And as someone who has spent time in Ukraine and witnessed the riots first hand the losers here are the Ukrainian people...the government doesn't represent them and neither do the rebels...no-one represents their interests...

 

[Chickenkorma]

in fairness your position is as biased as his is...and most ukrainians are aware of that...

Ukraine has been hijacked by two nations...the US and Russia...

The Ukrainian government isn't sovereign...it is not fighting for Ukrainian sovereignty but rather it is fighting for Western interests...

The rebels are simply Russia's response to a conflict that was brought to them...

And as someone who has spent time in Ukraine and witnessed the riots first hand the losers here are the Ukrainian people...the government doesn't represent them and neither do the rebels...no-one represents their interests...

What exactly is my position here?

 

[shaykh]

What exactly is my position here?

You state this is a legitimate struggle by the Ukrainians to maintain sovereignty when in fact its US puppets looking to maintain US interests...

 

[tahir_dj]

this might clear some air for all those who blindly believe what the bbc and co feed them

posted by golov

There are some serious unaswered questions in the air

1) Ukraine claimed to have no military planes in the vicinity of the MH17 at the time of the crash. The Russian MOD showed radar data which clearly indicates that there was a Su 25 very close to MH17, an aircraft capable of carrying air to air missiles which can shoot down the passenger plane

2) Ukraine claimed to have no SAM systems in the area at the time of the crash. Russian MOD published satelite imagery and field radar activity data showing that Ukrainian SAM systems were deployed very near to the crash site on the day. The next day these systems were pulled out

3) USA and Ukraine claimed to have evidence, including satelite imagery which allegedly captures the firing of missiles by the separatists. They should provide this evidence immediately to the investigation as it will be key information to the investigation

4) The communications between MH17 and Ukrainian air trafic control has not been made available to the investigation yet

5) The Ukrainian vice PM alleged that the separatists had tampered with the data in the black boxes, while providing no evidence of this. The experts who received the black boxes asserted that the data was untouched, althouth some were slightly damaged

posted by golov

 

[Chickenkorma]

You state this is a legitimate struggle by the Ukrainians to maintain sovereignty when in fact its US puppets looking to maintain US interests...

Really? So if a part of your country was annexed by another nation and you put out a struggle that would make a you a puppet somehow?

 

[tahir_dj]

Really? So if a part of your country was annexed by another nation and you put out a struggle that would make a you a puppet somehow?

look at the history where it all started
the country was in peaceful state until the Europeans intervened and started all that movement to remove their president who was pro Russia
so Russia responded by taking back Crimea. and than it all started going wrong for Ukraine and the EU.

this is a proxy war which is being fought by the EU/US/NATO against the Russians. by no means i am claiming that russia is saint all are same. but you have to get out of mentality of believing blindly what the media say.

 

[Markhor]

the country was in peaceful state until the Europeans intervened and started all that movement to remove their president who was pro Russia

Yes but you have to look at why there were protests - Ukraine's President refused to sign an EU Association Agreement which would have provided major economic benefits to the country. It would have significantly lowered customs duties and increased exports.

Poland joined the EU and their GDP has tripled so Ukrainians rightly wanted something similar for their country - is it really their fault they wanted some prosperity ? For years their government were in the laps of the Russians - and Yanukovych refused to sign the Agreement because Russia want to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence.

What if Pakistan wanted to make a similar arrangement with a country, but the President refused as he wanted to stay close to China - wouldn't you be angry ?

I swear some people on here will automatically side with a country if its perceived to be anti-west, without even studying the background of the case.

 

[shaykh]

Really? So if a part of your country was annexed by another nation and you put out a struggle that would make a you a puppet somehow?

Im stating that the country doesn't have sovereignty to fight for...the Ukrainians have lost that two fold...they are victims of a proxy war between Russia and the US and the government doesn't represent the interests of Ukrainians...anymore than the East does...

 

[shaykh]

Yes but you have to look at why there were protests - Ukraine's President refused to sign an EU Association Agreement which would have provided major economic benefits to the country. It would have significantly lowered customs duties and increased exports.

Poland joined the EU and their GDP has tripled so Ukrainians rightly wanted something similar for their country - is it really their fault they wanted some prosperity ? For years their government were in the laps of the Russians - and Yanukovych refused to sign the Agreement because Russia want to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence.

What if Pakistan wanted to make a similar arrangement with a country, but the President refused as he wanted to stay close to China - wouldn't you be angry ?

I swear some people on here will automatically side with a country if its perceived to be anti-west, without even studying the background of the case.

Its overrated just how beneficial it is to join the E.U...

The Balkan states like Serbia, Croatia and especially Slovenia have suffered immensely with EU membership...increased privatization, collapse of local businesses and ridiculous levels of debt...

 

[Chickenkorma]

look at the history where it all started
the country was in peaceful state until the Europeans intervened and started all that movement to remove their president who was pro Russia
so Russia responded by taking back Crimea. and than it all started going wrong for Ukraine and the EU.

this is a proxy war which is being fought by the EU/US/NATO against the Russians. by no means i am claiming that russia is saint all are same. but you have to get out of mentality of believing blindly what the media say.

Yes because Ukranians are sheep herded by foreign powers to gather and protest right? Because for no other reason than altruism these mindless zombies are willing to put their lives on the line for foreign countries?

 

[Markhor]

Its overrated just how beneficial it is to join the E.U...

The Balkan states like Serbia, Croatia and especially Slovenia have suffered immensely with EU membership...increased privatization, collapse of local businesses and ridiculous levels of debt...

Serbia and Croatia though have had so many problems over the years anyway, civil war and genocide is not exactly going bring about an economic boom EU member or not.

Ukrainians have seen the prosperity that Poles have enjoyed, and wanted in - but the pro-Russian oligarchs that ruled Ukraine threw a hissy fit.

How the EU transformed Poland

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/01/eu-poland-10-years-economic

Of the 10 mostly post-communist countries that joined the European Union exactly a decade ago today, none has benefited more from membership than Poland. First and foremost, there's the cash: the country received £56bn in development funds between 2007 and 2013, money that was used to build hundreds of kilometres of highways and express roads as well as youth sports facilities, modern sewerage systems, kindergartens and pre-schools.

Add to that the £60bn earmarked for Warsaw in the EU's 2014-20 budget and the country will have enjoyed a windfall equivalent to roughly double the value of the Marshall Plan, calculated in today's dollar figures. And that does not take into account the tens of billions of pounds that Polish farmers continue to receive in agricultural subsidies from Brussels. What we are witnessing is, without doubt, one of the largest wealth transfers between nations in modern history.

Then there is the boost the Polish economy has enjoyed thanks to its booming exports, which mostly head to other EU countries. A year before accession, Poland generated an annual GDP of £130bn; by 2013, that figure had grown to £305bn. Meanwhile, GDP per capita has risen from 44% of the EU average on accession to 67% today and is forecast to reach 74% by 2020. Small wonder then that some nine out of 10 Poles support their country's membership of the EU, according to a survey last month .

But it is not just Poland's economy that has changed; it's the country's citizens as well. Young Poles today travel and study all over Europe, taking part in exchange programmes or just simply packing up their bags and heading for the nearest airport. Many have now personally interacted with folk from different countries and races or know people from their families who have. This was not always the case.

Now can anyone blame Ukrainians for wanting the same ? The west backing them does not automatically make their case invalid.

 

[Chickenkorma]

Im stating that the country doesn't have sovereignty to fight for...the Ukrainians have lost that two fold...they are victims of a proxy war between Russia and the US and the government doesn't represent the interests of Ukrainians...anymore than the East does...

Your bias is ridiculous - just because a country's struggle is against Russia does not automatically make them pro-West, and the West is not a homogenous entity where the interests of EU/States/Nato are all unanimous. There is solid evidence suggesting Russia has been supplying pro-Russian rebels with arms and intelligence - THAT is a proxy war.

You're somehow trying to state that by going against Russia, the Ukrainians are automatically puppets of the West and have no sovereignty to fight for - that is as absurd as any statements come.

Even the Afghans who actually were used as a proxy by the West had sovereignty to fight for - this point is as absurd as they come.

 

[Haroon786]

I don't think two Malaysian planes crashing within the space of months is a coincidence, just something smells fishy.

 

[OZGOD]

I swear some people on here will automatically side with a country if its perceived to be anti-west, without even studying the background of the case.

This is just an example of an inability to independently think and look at a situation from an unbiased viewpoint. It's very easy to identify these types of posts and yes we have a lot of them here, on both sides of the debate. There's almost no point in engaging in discussion with people whose minds are closed.

 

[KingKhanWC]

KKWC...I think the best argument is the rebels shot it down...

But I don't blame them...they were being attacked by Ukrainian planes and had already shot down two that week...States with advanced intelligence and situational awareness have shot down civilian planes by mistake so why expect any better from a bunch of amateurs?...

Any presumption that this could be deliberate is of course ludicrous because it serves no purpose for the Russians or the rebels...

However i have posted a separate thread on the subject...the airlines have to take a lot of responsibility here...

The Ukrainians claimed that the rebels had access to surface to air missiles which evidently seems true so why did their air traffic control and the airlines themselves make that airspace an APPROVED route...if that was my family on the plane i would be asking that question...

Why were my family flying in an area where planes were being shot down?...and essentially it comes down to fuel and money...it was a cheaper option...

Aviation safety authorities have advised against flying in Eastern Ukraine altogether but airlines chose the safer option...

I really don't blame the rebels if they shot down this plane...they are under attack from Ukrainian forces...I blame those who put the plane in a position to be attacked in the first place...

There is of course one idea which is interesting which is the fact that the plane took a 300 mile diversion and was even more in range than previous planes...the link is in my own thread...and also recordings between Ukrainian air traffic control and the crew members of the MH17 have been confiscated by the Ukrainian security services and no-one has asked for these yet...is it possible the Ukrainians deliberately put that plane at risk?...we will unfortunately never know why the plane took that diversion in the first place...but as i will say regardless even with that diversion it was an APPROVED route which is frankly disgraceful...

The airlines have a lot to answer for...now they are all avoiding Eastern Ukraine when they should have been doing that from the very beginning...

Hope you're good

I think there's a lot more to come out of this. Russia now alleges there was a Ukrainian fighter jet following the plane, a few km away before it came down. They have requested the US to release satellite images, let's see if this happens.

I haven't seen any real evidence pointing towards the rebels.

Passenger planes have been flying over Iraq & Afghanistan but this was obviously a bad call by the airline or deliberate order given by the Ukrainian air control to divert or lower altitude.

On a side note Israel has said flights are in danger into Tel Aviv , these rockets must be damn good.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

European shares have gone down since the plane went down

Merkel has to rescue the european economy again, i can't see her calling Putin's bluff, Putin is by far the steelier leader

 

[MenInG]

An international inquiry into the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believes high-level Russian officials were directing separatists in eastern Ukraine linked to the attack.

Investigators allege a top aide of President Vladimir Putin was in contact with rebel leaders on a regular basis.

All 298 people on board were killed when a missile struck the plane over rebel-held territory on 17 July 2014.

Russia's foreign ministry has rejected the latest findings.

Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said international investigators had manipulated the inquiry to suit a predetermined conclusion.

The 298 who perished
Investigators have charged four people, including a separatist defence chief. The suspects are due to go on trial, probably in absentia, in April 2020.

What do the investigators say?
The Netherlands-based inquiry team have not linked Russia directly to the attack on the plane but they say the phone-taps show contact with two of the four suspects already charged with murdering the passengers and crew.

While MH17 is not mentioned in the phone-taps, provided by Ukraine's SBU intelligence, investigators believe Moscow officials knew what was going on on the ground and had influence over "administrative, financial and military matters" in the separatists' self-styled Donetsk People's Republic (DPR).

The inquiry has already said the Bukh Telar missile launch system came from Russia's 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade based at Kursk.

They are now appealing for more witnesses to come forward.

Who are the high-level Russians?
The inquiry team names Vladislav Surkov, a former Kremlin strategist and deputy prime minister, and Sergey Aksyonov, the man placed in charge of Crimea when it was occupied and annexed by Russia months before.

They say Russian Defence Minister Sergi Shoigu is also mentioned in several calls.

"The indications for close ties between Russian government officials and leaders of the DPR raise questions about their possible involvement in the deployment of the Buk Telar which brought down flight MH17 on 17 July 2014," said Andy Kraag, head of the criminal investigation division of Dutch police.

What is in the phone-taps?
Two of the suspects already charged are mentioned in the phone-taps. Igor Girkin was so-called defence minister in the DPR and, according to prosecutors, Sergei Dubinsky was his deputy.

DPR leaders always insisted they were volunteers not directed by anyone but the inquiry team says it has spoken to witnesses who say key figures were directed from within Russia.

They say DPR leader Alexander Borodai was recorded saying: "I'm carrying out orders and protecting the interests of one and only state, the Russian Federation. That's the bottom line."

They also quote Mr Borodai apparently talking to Vladislav Surkov a fortnight before the MH17 disaster talking about Russian reinforcements.


Media captionAn animated video from the Dutch Safety Board shows the damage to the plane and how it was caused
Investigators believe leading rebels were equipped by Russia's FSB security service with secure phones that cannot be tapped and operate via the internet, apparently nicknamed "the glass".

Sergei Dubinsky, they allege, called someone named Semenov saying: "Those are special phones, you cannot buy them. They are gotten through Moscow. Through FSB."

Although four people have been charged and are due to go on trial in April, probably in absentia, it is thought more evidence could yet emerge from rebel ranks in the DPR.

The aim of the inquiry team is to find out who ultimately pushed the button that brought down MH17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and who was in charge.

The 298 who died included 193 Dutch nationals, 43 Malaysians, 27 Australians, 12 Indonesians, 10 Britons, four Belgians, four Germans, three Philippine nationals, one New Zealander and one Canadian.

Russia has argued that the investigation and trial is aimed at discrediting the country in the eyes of the international community.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50419669

 

[msaaim89]

MIG, it's all political. Can't trust anyway especially the US. They will blame Russia regardless.

Didn't the German investigation find out that the BUK system was taken from the Ukraine army?

 

[MenInG]

Four men go on trial in the Netherlands on Monday, in the first criminal case over the murder of 298 people on board Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was shot down over Ukraine in 2014.

The Boeing 777 went down amid a conflict in eastern Ukraine, after Russian-backed rebels seized the area.

Investigators say they have proof the Buk missile system that shot it down came from a military base in Russia.

The four suspects are unlikely to take part in the trial.

Three of the men are Russian and one is from eastern Ukraine. Neither country extradites its citizens but one of the Russians will have a defence team in the courtroom and the court says it is also prepared to accept testimony from them by video link.

Russia has repeatedly denied involvement in the deadly attack on 17 July 2014. Citizens of 10 different countries died on flight MH17.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51725417

 

[MenInG]

The Dutch government is taking Russia to the European Court of Human Rights for its alleged role in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine six years ago.

A Buk surface-to-air missile, fired from territory controlled by pro-Moscow Ukrainian rebels, destroyed the Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flight in July 2014.

The Dutch move, announced by the foreign minister on Friday, is intended to support individual cases being brought to the European court by relatives of some of the 298 people who were killed.

"Achieving justice for 298 victims of the downing of Flight MH17 is and will remain the government's highest priority," Foreign Minister Stef Blok said. "By taking this step today ... we are moving closer to this goal."

By launching the case against Russia, the Dutch authorities can share evidence with the Strasbourg-based European court so it can be considered in individual relatives' cases.

"As a government, we have information and evidence that leads us to the conclusion of the involvement of the Russian Federation," Blok told The Associated Press news agency.

"Of course, the relatives themselves do not have all this information so we can help them by starting this procedure."

Moscow has repeatedly denied involvement in the downing of the Boeing 777.

Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said Russia sees Friday's announcement "in connection with the disaster of the Malaysian Boeing as another blow to Russian-Dutch relations".

Zakharova said throughout the case, the Netherlands has acted "exclusively within the framework of anti-Russian logic, to which both technical and criminal investigations were subordinated".

An international team of prosecutors investigating the case has, however, charged three Russians and a Ukrainian with involvement in bringing down the plane and the murder of all on board.

The men are on trial in a Dutch court, although none has been extradited to the Netherlands to face justice.

Blok said much of the evidence the government will submit to the human rights court also is part of that criminal case.

Al Jazeera's Step Vassen, reporting from Amsterdam, said the move shows the Dutch government is expressing its full support to give justice to those people on board the Malaysia Airlines flight 17.

"Basically what the government is trying to do is to support the individual lawsuits that more than 400 relatives of the passengers onboard have filed at the European Court of Human Rights. It is part of the very broad and wide judicial fight the Netherlands is fighting at the moment to give justice to those people onboard that plane," She said.

"The relatives of the victims have said that they really want those in the higher ranks, referring to Moscow, probably the Kremlin, to be held responsible."

Konstantin Kosachev, head of the foreign affairs committee in the upper house of Russia's parliament, called the Dutch move "a strange initiative from every aspect" in remarks carried by the Interfax news agency.

"The investigation isn't over yet, there have been no court verdicts on the national level yet and, finally, what does the European Court for Human Rights have to do with it?" Kosachev said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ropean-rights-court-mh17-200710162315352.html

 

[sweep_shot]

Tragic incident.

This is why commercial airplanes should avoid flying over war-torn countries.

 

[Firebat]

Relatives of MH17 crash to seek damages from suspects, lawyers say

THE HAGUE (Reuters) - More than 300 relatives of victims who died when a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane was shot down in 2014 will seek unspecified damages from four suspects being tried in the Netherlands, lawyers representing family members said on Monday.

The suspects - three Russians and a Ukrainian - are being tried for murder and shooting down the passenger plane over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people onboard.

The four men remain at large and only one has legal representation in the trial, which is being conducted at a courtroom near Amsterdam.

So far, 316 relatives of those who died said they plan to seek damages and 76 intend to exercise a right to speak during the trial, said Peter Langstraat, who represents 450 family members.

The claims have not been filed yet because the lawyers have asked the court to first rule whether Dutch or Ukrainian law should be applied when requesting damages.

Any court decision to award damages would hinge on a guilty verdict for the suspects, in a trial expected to last more than a year.

MH17 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down by a missile fired from territory held by pro-Russian rebels during fighting in eastern Ukraine.

After years of collecting evidence, a Dutch-led international Joint Investigation team (JIT) last year said the missile launcher used to hit the jet came from a Russian army base just across the border.

In July, the Dutch government said it was filing a suit against Moscow, which it holds responsible for the disaster, at the European Court of Human Rights. Roughly two-thirds of the victims were Dutch.

The Kremlin has consistently denied involvement in the incident.

Only one defendant, Oleg Pulatov, has sent defense counsel to represent him.

Pulatov’s lawyers told judges on Monday that they still have not been able to meet their client in person, due mainly to the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...mages-from-suspects-lawyers-say-idUSKBN25R1RK

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/09/multiple-sightings-of-missile-launcher-before-mh17-shot-down-court-told

Multiple witnesses saw an anti-aircraft missile launcher that had secretly crossed into eastern Ukraine from Russia in the hours before it shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, a trial in the Netherlands has heard.

The Buk system crossed the border in darkness in the early hours of 17 July 2014. It was then loaded on to a trailer and taken to the rebel-held city of Donetsk, the court heard on Wednesday, before it headed east towards the town of Snizhne.

Along the way, residents, a journalist and a passing driver spotted the distinctive launcher. It was carrying four missiles. A Russian military crew accompanied the anti-aircraft weapon, along with separatist fighters from the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR), it was said.

Four suspects are on trial for their alleged part in the downing of MH17. The Buk was parked in an arable field south of Snizhne. Later that day it shot down the passenger plane, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, killing all 298 people onboard, the court was told. Russia has denied responsibility.

At the time, the pro-Moscow rebels were losing territory to a Ukrainian military advance and separatist forces were vulnerable to attack by Ukrainian fighter jets, which had inflicted heavy casualties.

The court heard intercepted conversations involving the four accused discussing the Buk and their need for an air defence weapon. Three of the four are Russian. The most senior is Igor Girkin, a former FSB spy agency officer who in April 2014 led the armed takeover of the Ukrainian town of Slavyansk, later retreating to Donetsk.

The others are Sergei Dubinsky, head of the DNR’s military intelligence service, and his deputy, Oleg Pulatov. Both liaised closely with Russia’s GRU’s military intelligence agency, which supplied the rebels with weapons, the court was told. The fourth man, Leonid Kharchenko, a Ukrainian, was a DNR field commander.

The rebels variously referred to Russia as “Moscow”, “you know who” and the “eastern neighbour”. They discussed how the Buk – or “the toy”, as one commander put it – would dramatically transform the DNR’s fortunes on the battlefield and prevent their tanks from being picked off.

“If I receive the Buk in the morning I will send it over to you,” Dubinsky said, according to a recording of a phone call from 16 July 2014 passed by Ukraine’s intelligence service to Dutch investigators and played in court. “If not, things will be totally ****ed up.” Dubinsky also told Pulatov: “Our only hope is the Buk.”

After the Buk entered rebel territory, the pair talked extensively about its route and destination, the court was told. The convoy travelled alongside and separately from a consignment of three tanks belonging to the DNR’s Vostok battalion. By mid-morning on 17 July it had arrived at a crossroads in Donetsk.

The presiding judge, Hendrik Steenhuis, said several witnesses noticed the anti-aircraft weapon, which was being pulled by a white Volvo truck, previously taken by rebels from Donetsk. Videos played in court showed the Buk passing Soviet-era tower blocks under a bright cloudy sky and trundling along a main highway. It was also recorded on a dashboard camera.

All of the witnesses were anonymous, identified by a letter and number. Some had uploaded evidence and images to the Dutch-led joint investigation team (JIT), which carried out the criminal investigation and concluded that a Russian missile had shot down the Boeing plane. The court was told that two armed men had threatened one witness and made him change his testimony on Russian TV.

The trial has progressed through a series of preliminary hearings since opening in March 2020. Its huge case file follows a seven-year international investigation. It includes phone calls, cell tower data, satellite imagery and public source material gathered from Twitter and Facebook, as well as witness statements, Steenhuis said on Wednesday.

The four suspects were not in the courtroom near Schiphol airport and are being tried in their absence. They face life sentences if convicted of murdering the 298 people. Only Pulatov is being represented by defence lawyers, who have told the court he is innocent.

Earlier the trial heard how the Kremlin presented misdated and altered satellite imagery as “evidence” days after MH17 was blown up. Moscow has suggested Ukraine was to blame. Dutch experts said Russia had manipulated the pictures using Photoshop, with dates also changed.

The trial continues on Thursday.

 

[MenInG]

A Dutch court has found three men guilty of murder for shooting down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people.

The court found that a Russian-made missile supplied from Russia and fired by an armed group under Russian control brought down flight MH17.

The men - two Russians and one Ukrainian - were found guilty in absentia and sentenced to life in jail. A third Russian was acquitted.

The missile attack was one of the most notorious war crimes in Ukraine before allegations of atrocities there became an almost daily reality.

Many of the victims' relatives believe if the world had reacted differently, and taken a tougher stance against Russia eight years ago, the invasion of Ukraine and the geopolitical instability that has followed could have been avoided.

The judges ruled that it was a deliberate action to bring down a plane, even though the three found guilty had intended to shoot down a military not a civilian aircraft.

Oleg Pulatov was the only one of the four accused to have legal representation at the trial. The judges acquitted him, although they found he knew about the missile.

On 17 July 2014, 298 people, including 80 children and 15 crew, boarded Malaysia Airlines flight 17 to Kuala Lumpur at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport.

The plane was cruising at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. It was the early days of Russia's efforts to control parts of the country.

At the time this was a relatively low-level conflict zone, but fighting had recently expanded into the air. In the preceding months a number of military planes had been shot down.

In response, Ukraine closed the airspace at lower altitudes - up to 32,000 feet. But planes were still crossing the country.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was flying 1,000 feet above this restricted airspace.

At 13:20 GMT, it lost contact with air traffic control.

Most people on board came from the Netherlands, followed by Malaysia and Australia. They had packed for dream holidays, an Aids conference, family reunions and more. In a flash, all plans for the future were obliterated.

"I still miss them," says Silene Fredriksz, her walls adorned with snapshots of son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy. The young lovers were heading to Bali, a treat after a difficult year.

Forward to 2022 and Moscow's invasion of Ukraine in February opened up barely healed wounds.

"It was heartbreaking for us," Silene says. She is convinced the current conflict could have been avoided had the world taken a harder line in 2014.

"Putin has never been stopped, and still has not been stopped. And he will not stop until he is stopped," Silene said. I hope the world wakes up now, because we knew it already eight years ago."

Russia has always denied any involvement and instead pumped out a range of alternative theories - suggesting a Ukrainian fighter jet fired the missile, or that Ukrainian government forces were responsible, and in some cases fabricated evidence to support their claims.

These have in turn been diligently debunked with material gathered by a team of international investigators, and they were rejected by the Dutch court.

The team found the disintegration of the plane in mid-air was caused by the detonation of a Russian-made 9N314M-type warhead carried on the 9M38M1 missile, launched from the eastern part of Ukraine using a Buk missile system.

Eliot Higgins, founder of the investigative platform Bellingcat, delved into the open source evidence. His team identified links with Russia's 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile Brigade, and trawled through 200 soldiers' social media posts to confirm the identity and role of many members of the unit based at a Russian military barracks in Kursk. Bellingcat shared their findings with Dutch prosecutors. He believes the trial has laid bare indisputable proof of Russia's involvement.

"I think at this point, and especially with a guilty verdict," Eliot told us, "anyone who would claim that Russia wasn't involved with this shoot down is really a ridiculous person".

Based on his findings, Eliot Higgins believes the events of 2014 and 2022 are inextricably linked.

"People were just turning a blind eye to it, policymakers just weren't comfortable with calling out Russia in a way they really should have done. And they didn't react in the way that could have prevented the invasion in 2022. I think there should have been more military support for Ukraine, there should have been more sanctions, there should have been a stronger response than we saw at the time. There could have been preventative measures that would have saved a lot of lives."

The trial has been an opportunity to cut through Russian disinformation. The judges rejected an alternative version of events promoted by Buk missile maker Almaz-Antey as falsified and not independently assessed.

"There was the disaster itself. But the next disaster, I would say, was that Russia never cooperated. And that gave extra pain for all of us. And why was that necessary? Just say sorry," Hans de Borst tells us, as he shows us holiday photos of his 17-year-old daughter Elsemiek.

He holds tight to the memories, as well as Elsemiek's passport and boarding pass, recovered intact from the wreckage.

Families at the epicentre of the MH17 disaster invested their faith in the investigation led by the Netherlands.

"It is extremely important to me," he says stoically, "because it's that feeling of justice needing to be done in a world that kills people who just go on holiday. If justice is not being done then your whole feeling of a good world doesn't exist anymore. So getting justice brought to you by so many people gives a good feeling and I hope, will give some peace about this subject."

Piecing together clues including intercepted telephone calls, eyewitness accounts and even metal fragments found in the bodies of the crew, investigators were able to establish the type of weapon, track its route - from a military barracks in Russia, across the border to the launch site in pro-Russian separatist controlled eastern Ukraine - and identify key suspects.

They are three Russians and one Ukrainian. The most prominent of them is Igor Girkin, who prosecutors say is a former colonel in Russia's intelligence service the FSB.

The Kremlin has dismissed the legal proceedings and all suspects refused to appear in court. Only one, Oleg Pulatov, employed a team of Dutch lawyers to defend him in court.

The judgment is unlikely to result in anyone serving time in jail for this mass murder, but the investigation has created an incontestable historical record and delivered the families some peace of mind.

"We will never get our children back," Silene Fredriksz accepts, "but… we need the truth. And we need justice. This is a small part of our justice."

BBC

 

[MenInG]

The European Court of Human Rights is set to announce whether it will hear a Dutch case against Russia over the downing of flight MH17 in 2014.

All 298 people on the Malaysia Airlines flight were killed when it was shot down by a Russian-made missile fired by Moscow-backed Ukrainian separatists.

The Dutch government argues that Russian disinformation about Moscow's role in the incident is a violation of the relatives' human rights.

Russia denies the allegations.

The decision will be read out at 14:30 local time (13:30 GMT).

The Boeing 777 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was hit by a surface-to-air missile in July 2014 during a conflict between pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian forces in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

The Netherlands argues that Russia played a key role in the air disaster and the case hinges on whether or not Moscow had "effective control" over the area of Ukraine where the missile was fired from.

BBC

 

[Rana]

For a minute there i thought they found the missing Malaysian airplane

I hope this discovery is made in my lifetime

 

[topspin]

Just gone through the posts on this thread and as expected the Russian sympathiser is blaming NATO even though it is clear as daylight that Russian backed Rebels were behind this.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Just gone through the posts on this thread and as expected the Russian sympathiser is blaming NATO even though it is clear as daylight that Russian backed Rebels were behind this.

Of course they will want to take this to some court now as Nato/Europe are in a war against Russia. Nothing but war propaganda.

 

[Robert]

The European Court of Human Rights is set to announce whether it will hear a Dutch case against Russia over the downing of flight MH17 in 2014.

All 298 people on the Malaysia Airlines flight were killed when it was shot down by a Russian-made missile fired by Moscow-backed Ukrainian separatists.

The Dutch government argues that Russian disinformation about Moscow's role in the incident is a violation of the relatives' human rights.

Russia denies the allegations.

The decision will be read out at 14:30 local time (13:30 GMT).

The Boeing 777 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was hit by a surface-to-air missile in July 2014 during a conflict between pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian forces in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

The Netherlands argues that Russia played a key role in the air disaster and the case hinges on whether or not Moscow had "effective control" over the area of Ukraine where the missile was fired from.

BBC

Interesting. All ECHR can really do is issue a sanction, which Moscow will ignore. One wonders why Russia is a signatory anyway.

 

[Technics 1210]

Do not fall for the Western propaganda.

Look up Iran Air Flight 655.

Amreeka shooting down an Iranian commercial airliner resulting in 100s of innocent deaths. Did Amreeka pay the price? No.

Most of you will not have heard of Iran Air Flight 655, that's because the ZMSM and Western government control the narrative.

 

[Major]

Do not fall for the Western propaganda.

Look up Iran Air Flight 655.

Amreeka shooting down an Iranian commercial airliner resulting in 100s of innocent deaths. Did Amreeka pay the price? No.

Most of you will not have heard of Iran Air Flight 655, that's because the ZMSM and Western government control the narrative.

no they do not

 

[MenInG]

There are strong indications that Russian President Vladimir Putin decided to supply the missile that downed flight MH17 in 2014, international investigators say.

The passenger aircraft was hit by a Russian-made missile over Ukraine, killing nearly 300 people.

Prosecutors said there was evidence that Mr Putin decided to provide heavy weaponry to Moscow-backed separatists.

There is no suggestion that Mr Putin ordered the aircraft be shot down.

The conclusions of the Joint Investigation Team - made up of investigators from five countries - follow a Dutch court ruling from last year which found two Russians and a Ukrainian guilty of murder in absentia.

Moscow - which has denied all involvement in the downing of the plane - dismissed those verdicts as "scandalous" and politically motivated.

The international team, charged with looking into those responsible for launching the missile, said on Wednesday it had exhausted all leads and could not continue with any more criminal proceedings.

BBC

 

[Rana]

It cannot be a coincidence that two Malaysian Airlines jets went out of use within a span of a year.

Surely Russia/Putin has something to do with MH370 disappearance as well?

 

[KingKhanWC]

It cannot be a coincidence that two Malaysian Airlines jets went out of use within a span of a year.

Surely Russia/Putin has something to do with MH370 disappearance as well?

Sure lets believe the BBC and say Putin shot down every aircraft which went down in history. Even before he was born. Ukrainians have plenty of Russian made missiles, see their S300 which are being used in the war now.

 

[Robert]

It cannot be a coincidence that two Malaysian Airlines jets went out of use within a span of a year.

Surely Russia/Putin has something to do with MH370 disappearance as well?

Doubt it, he has no interest that far east. That’s China’s back yard.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Russia responsible for downing of MH17, UN body rules

Russia was responsible for the downing of the Malaysia Airlines flight, MH17, over eastern Ukraine in July 2014, the United Nations aviation agency has ruled.

All 298 people on board the passenger plane were killed when it was shot down by a Russian-made missile.

The Kremlin has always denied any responsibility for the air disaster.

On Monday, the UN's Council of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) voted that the Russian Federation failed to uphold its obligations under international air law, which requires states to "refrain from resorting to the use of weapons against civil aircraft in flight".

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was struck down over the Donbas region of Ukraine, during a conflict between pro-Russian rebels and Ukrainian forces.

The majority of passengers and crew, 196 people, were from the Netherlands.

There were also 38 people from Australia, 10 British citizens, as well as Belgian and Malaysian nationals on board.

The case to the UN was brought in 2022 by the Australian and Dutch governments, who have both welcomed the ICAO's ruling.

"We call upon Russia to finally face up to its responsibility for this horrific act of violence and make reparations for its egregious conduct", said Australia's foreign minister Penny Wong in a statement.

The Dutch foreign minister, Caspar Veldkamp, said it marked an "important step towards establishing the truth and achieving justice and accountability".

It sends a clear messaged to the international community, he added: "states cannot violate international law with impunity" .

In 2022, a Dutch court ruled that a Russian-controlled group had downed the plane and two Russians and a pro-Moscow Ukrainian national were convicted of murder in absentia.

The trio were all sentenced to life in prison however, as they were not extradited, they have not served time in jail.

BBC