Salam India!

[kron]

Agree.

This India couldn't win a Test series in South Africa, England, and NZ. They also lost a Test series at home against NZ.

So, can't be the best team.

There is no undisputed best team currently.

Drew in England
Drew in SA
Won in aus twice
Beat everyone at home except for one loss vs nz which us a bad one though

No one else comes close.


But yes india is probably top 2 atm. If india is playing at full strength that is. Right now a few missing via injury.

 

[Buffet]

India has Bumrah, out of form siraj, Two debutan seamers. One is ordinary. Sundar is not exactly same as Ashwin or Jadeja. Was preferred mainly for his batting. So Indian bowling is a little light weight.

Yah, that's why posters shouldn't read much into this just because Bumrah bowled brilliant spell. He is probably most impactful bowler after Marshall and Steyn for all conditions, but you still need others to support you to win.

Steyn and Marshall were well supported and Bumrah was well supported in past when he won so mane games. I am not listing McGrath despite being part of great Aus team becasue he did not have ability to run through batting sides in Asia. He had just one 5-fer in Asia in his entire career and yet Aus won in Asia and that was due to bowling unit and not due to brillinace of one bowler. Great bolwing units are under rated by fans due to too much focus on one gun bowler, but great bolwing units win you matches more often. Everyone chipping in with wickets means you are not always relying on brilliance of one spell and opposition also can't relax any time. India had ATG bolwing unit for 5-6 years.

If Bumrah can win this long test series then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he retires after this series. He will be undisputed top 5 in test for me despite having only 200 odd wickets. Hadlee, brilliant bowler, absolutely top class but has only 7 away wins in entire career due to not having support. It's very hard to win games if you depend on one gun bowler. Gun bowlers can't make up for others in all games.

 

[kron]

Before Ind-NZ series, Aussies were #1 in ICC ranking.

An undisputed #1 team would win everywhere. That's what ATG Aussie team did.

Since India couldn't win a Test series in England, NZ, and South Africa, they were not the undisputed #1 Test team.

India beat aus twice actually 3 times. So India is and was number 1.
Right now in transition. So top 3.

 

[kron]

Yah, that's why posters shouldn't read much into this just because Bumrah bowled brilliant spell. He is probably most impactful bowler after Marshall and Steyn for all conditions, but you still need others to support you to win.

Steyn and Marshall were well supported and Bumrah was well supported in past when he won so mane games. I am not listing McGrath despite being part of great Aus team becasue he did not have ability to run through batting sides in Asia. He had just one 5-fer in Asia in his entire career and yet Aus won in Asia and that was due to bowling unit and not due to brillinace of one bowler. Great bolwing units are under rated by fans due to too much focus on one gun bowler, but great bolwing units win you matches more often. Everyone chipping in with wickets means you are not always relying on brilliance of one spell and opposition also can't relax any time. India had ATG bolwing unit for 5-6 years.

If Bumrah can win this long test series then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he retires after this series. He will be undisputed top 5 in test for me despite having only 200 odd wickets. Hadlee, brilliant bowler, absolutely top class but has only 7 away wins in entire career due to not having support. It's very hard to win games if you depend on one gun bowler. Gun bowlers can't make up for others in all games.

He has left behind every pakistani bowler except wasim yes. No matter which way Pakistanis spin it.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It will come down to which team has better bench strength that will decide future champions. Average age of the Indian side that plays in Australia is 27. Two guys that are irreplaceable are Jadeja and Ashwin. Bumrah has a few years left. Others can be replaced.

 

[Buffet]

So which team will be best. Aus which lost two home series against India and might lose another.

Or are you the one which believes in on off wtc final supremacy.

Or are there no best teams atm?

Yes, no best team ATM. We need to see the result of next cycle. We may or may not get the clear best team. Yes, some one will be ranked 1 but clear best should be visible without looking at ranking.

 

[mb3407]

Before Ind-NZ series, Aussies were #1 in ICC ranking.

An undisputed #1 team would win everywhere. That's what ATG Aussie team did.

Since India couldn't win a Test series in England, NZ, and South Africa, they were not the undisputed #1 Test team.

Which team in the last decade won everywhere?

SA and Eng were drawn and not lost. Which is a pretty good result away from home.

Did Australia win away from Home against India, South Africa, England and New Zealand (maybe just Nz)?

They only beat weaker teams at home and even at home lost against India twice.

They were lucky in the wtc finals. That is what you call anomaly and not what's happening in this test.

 

[mb3407]

Yes, no best team ATM. We need to see the result of next cycle. We may or may not get the clear best team. Yes, some one will be ranked 1 but clear best should be visible without looking at ranking.

I can somewhat agree with that

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Yah, that's why posters shouldn't read much into this just because Bumrah bowled brilliant spell. He is probably most impactful bowler after Marshall and Steyn for all conditions, but you still need others to support you to win.

Steyn and Marshall were well supported and Bumrah was well supported in past when he won so mane games. I am not listing McGrath despite being part of great Aus team becasue he did not have ability to run through batting sides in Asia. He had just one 5-fer in Asia in his entire career and yet Aus won in Asia and that was due to bowling unit and not due to brillinace of one bowler. Great bolwing units are under rated by fans due to too much focus on one gun bowler, but great bolwing units win you matches more often. Everyone chipping in with wickets means you are not always relying on brilliance of one spell and opposition also can't relax any time. India had ATG bolwing unit for 5-6 years.

If Bumrah can win this long test series then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he retires after this series. He will be undisputed top 5 in test for me despite having only 200 odd wickets. Hadlee, brilliant bowler, absolutely top class but has only 7 away wins in entire career due to not having support. It's very hard to win games if you depend on one gun bowler. Gun bowlers can't make up for others in all games.

Imran was Pakistans best Test bowler in all conditions. Even with losing 3 years of bowling, during his peak years.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Yah, that's why posters shouldn't read much into this just because Bumrah bowled brilliant spell. He is probably most impactful bowler after Marshall and Steyn for all conditions, but you still need others to support you to win.

Steyn and Marshall were well supported and Bumrah was well supported in past when he won so mane games. I am not listing McGrath despite being part of great Aus team becasue he did not have ability to run through batting sides in Asia. He had just one 5-fer in Asia in his entire career and yet Aus won in Asia and that was due to bowling unit and not due to brillinace of one bowler. Great bolwing units are under rated by fans due to too much focus on one gun bowler, but great bolwing units win you matches more often. Everyone chipping in with wickets means you are not always relying on brilliance of one spell and opposition also can't relax any time. India had ATG bolwing unit for 5-6 years.

If Bumrah can win this long test series then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he retires after this series. He will be undisputed top 5 in test for me despite having only 200 odd wickets. Hadlee, brilliant bowler, absolutely top class but has only 7 away wins in entire career due to not having support. It's very hard to win games if you depend on one gun bowler. Gun bowlers can't make up for others in all games.

Also Shami needs to be given more credit than what Indians give him. Quality performer. One of them bowlers who beats the bat all day.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Also Shami needs to be given more credit than what Indians give him. Quality performer. One of them bowlers who beats the bat all day.

India owes it to him and Umesh yadav for their home domination. They missed him badly against NZ. He is probably they best reverse swing bowler in Indian history even ahead of Zaheer khan.

 

[mb3407]

India owes it to him and Umesh yadav for their home domination. They missed him badly against NZ. He is probably they best reverse swing bowler in Indian history even ahead of Zaheer khan.

Shami's numbers are much better than Shoaib's even after playing in a batting friendy and two ball era.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Shami's numbers are much better than Shoaib's even after playing in a batting friendy and two ball era.

yes. Akash Deep is not quiet the same as Shami yet. But still better than Siraj.

 

[kron]

Also Shami needs to be given more credit than what Indians give him. Quality performer. One of them bowlers who beats the bat all day.

If shami jurel and axar played india would have blitzed nz at home. We were stuck with pregnant rohit geriatric kohli and washed up has beens.

 

[Buffet]

He has left behind every pakistani bowler except wasim yes. No matter which way Pakistanis spin it.

I did not see IK so can't comment on that, but he has long gone past Waqar. Gap in skills is just too wide to care about number of wickets. It's true in all formats. 400-500 international wickets with huge impact in all formats is enough to judge.

I saw Wasim and I will put Wasim ahead right now in test. He could do everything Bumrah could do. Yah, Bumrah is probably harder to face due to his late release and has higher impact but Wasim was veyr skillful bowler, did very well agaisnt top teams and has higher number of wickets.

Having said that one great bowler can't win you many games. Same thing happened with Wasim. Waqar was gun with reverse but not great with new ball skills and not great against good batting sides. That's the reason, despite name sheet having Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Akhtar, Anwar, Inzzy, etc Pakistan won so little in Aus, SA. You could bank on Wasim to do well eveywhere but that was not enough , he was good but not that good to force a win. That's why I said if Bumrah can be good enough to force 2-3 wins then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he hangs his boot in one year. History shows that it's extremely hard.

 

[kron]

yes. Akash Deep is not quiet the same as Shami yet. But still better than Siraj.

You are severely underestimating harshit who is a quality pacer and also akashdeep. Yes not shami yet but he is new. Won't be long before he develops.

 

[kron]

I did not see IK so can't comment on that, but he has long gone past Waqar. Gap in skills is just too wide to care about number of wickets. It's true in all formats. 400-500 international wickets with huge impact in all formats is enough to judge.

I saw Wasim and I will put Wasim ahead right now in test. He could do everything Bumrah could do. Yah, Bumrah is probably harder to face due to his late release and has higher impact but Wasim was veyr skillful bowler, did very well agaisnt top teams and has higher number of wickets.

Having said that one great bowler can't win you many games. Same thing happened with Wasim. Waqar was gun with reverse but not great with new ball skills and not great agasint good batting sides. That's the reason, despite namesheet having Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Akhtar, Anwar, Inzzy, etc won so little in Aus, SA. You could bank on Wasim to do well eveywhere but that was not enough , he was good but not that good to force a win. That's why I said if Bumrah can be good enough to force 2-3 wins then I will have no hesitation to rate him ahead of Wasim even if he hangs his boot in one year. History shows that it's extremely hard.

Well yea bumrah had shami ishant umesh steaming in before and it was a deadly quartet. Somehow kohli ans co botched a few series wins tbh but yea great achievement to win 5 test maces in a row regardless. Now in transition.

 

[gani999]

A better metric would be win / loss rate and you may even limit it to ICC tournaments. The way you are tallying the numbers and claiming equivalence between India and Pakistan is absurd.

I am not talking about win/loss or any other flipping rate.

All I said was that despite all of its resources and talent, India's performance in ICC tournaments in the last ten years has not been anything spectacular. They have won all of one ICC tournament in the last ten years just like Pakistan, a country with all sorts of problems, both money and player related.
It's as simple a statement as can get.

 

[Buffet]

Before Ind-NZ series, Aussies were #1 in ICC ranking.

An undisputed #1 team would win everywhere. That's what ATG Aussie team did.

Since India couldn't win a Test series in England, NZ, and South Africa, they were not the undisputed #1 Test team.

Mixing two things. Undisputed number one is simply who did better than other teams by a large margine. No other teams came even close to Indian performance home and away combined in that cycle. All home wins. Wins in Aus, Sl, WI, BD. Draw in SA, Eng. Loss in just one venue NZ. That's undisputed number one. More than that would have been ATG test team.

ATG teams are who wins everywhere. Undisputed number ones are not always ATG teams.

Some time it's not hard to give credit and move on.

 

[mb3407]

I am not talking about win/loss or any other flipping rate.

All I said was that despite all of its resources and talent, India's performance in ICC tournaments in the last ten years has not been anything spectacular. They have won all of one ICC tournament in the last ten years just like Pakistan, a country with all sorts of problems, both money and player related.
It's as simple a statement as can get.

Your way of measuring performance in awful.
Since 2018 there is no difference between Pakistan ans Associate nations like Uganda by your reasoning

 

[Buffet]

Well yea bumrah had shami ishant umesh steaming in before and it was a deadly quartet. Somehow kohli ans co botched a few series wins tbh but yea great achievement to win 5 test maces in a row regardless. Now in transition.

That makes a huge difference.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You are severely underestimating harshit who is a quality pacer and also akashdeep. Yes not shami yet but he is new. Won't be long before he develops.

But Harshit didn't play against NZ due to Gambhir's cunning IPL plan.

 

[Buffet]

Imran was Pakistans best Test bowler in all conditions. Even with losing 3 years of bowling, during his peak years.

I saw IK only last phase. He was not great in start and hardly bowled in last phase but he was simply fantastic in middle phase in the test format. His record reflects that and he had balanced record in all venues and against top teams as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Bumrah has that aura we'd see from the likes of Steyn, Flintoff etc in their peaks. He lifts the whole team massively.
I think India can move forward from Kohli in Tests now.

 

[MenInG]

This thread is not about Pakistan or it's cricketers.

Can we all take note.

 

[Human786]

You have to hand it to them.

They suffered a huge embarrassment at home vs NZ but the trust in their own skills and processes was so good that they did nothing in panic.

Even a fist innings collapse did not deter them.

Of course, any team can come up with plans but to execute plans etc take a lot of skills and personnel and India have it.

Undoubtedly, they will have off-days, but this thread will always be there to remind people about the quality of this side.

nice post @MenInG

 

[Croma]

Coming back from 0-3 homes loss and a 150 first innings all out in Perth, to have a great lead with 10 wickets in have at the end of day 2, justifies this thread title.

WHat happens from here we dont know... but today's performance was magnificient and deserves praise. Lets hope they continue in the same vein tomorrow... But Kohli and Padikkal dont inspire courage.

 

[uppercut]

therefore in YOUR OPINION White ball cricket > Test Cricket ????

They have to win more ICC trophies to be labelled as the best.

Aussies have won 3 ICC trophies in the last 4 years. India have won 1 in the last 11 years.

No response? @sweep_shot ?

Remember how I had accurately predicted recently that you would Conviniently shift your preference as it suited you ? Thanks for proving me right

 

[sweep_shot]

No response? @sweep_shot ?

Remember how I had accurately predicted recently that you would Conviniently shift your preference as it suited you ? Thanks for proving me right

Whatever floats your boat. LOL.

I meant ICC events. Not random white ball bilateral tournament.

Anyway, my post was pretty self-explanatory.

 

[kron]

Whatever floats your boat. LOL.

I meant ICC events. Not random white ball bilateral tournament.

Anyway, my post was pretty self-explanatory.

you are the oracle. no doubt.
and yes sir you are absolutely correct

winning one wtc final is greater than multiple series wins and 5 test maces

 

[sweep_shot]

you are the oracle. no doubt.
and yes sir you are absolutely correct

winning one wtc final is greater than multiple series wins and 5 test maces

They won 2 ODI world Cups in the past 11 years. India won 0.

ODI World Cup is the most prestigious ICC event.

 

[kron]

They won 2 ODI world Cups in the past 11 years. India won 0.

ODI World Cup is the most prestigious ICC event.

fair enough.
i understand.
for me test is the pinnacle. but yea odi wc is super important.

 

[kron]

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
KL Rahul	2021-2024	10	19	1	742	129	41.22	1701	43.62	3	3	1	96	7
K Nitish Kumar Reddy	2024-2024	1	1	0	41	41	41.00	59	69.49	0	0	0	6	1
RR Pant	2020-2024	15	27	2	951	146	38.04	1460	65.13	2	4	1	104	15
RG Sharma	2021-2024	10	20	2	679	127	37.72	1465	46.34	1	3	1	84	7
RA Jadeja	2020-2024	11	18	2	476	104	29.75	995	47.83	1	2	2	57	4
V Kohli	2020-2024	15	28	0	823	79	29.39	1779	46.26	0	5	1	111	3
Washington Sundar	2021-2024	2	3	0	88	62	29.33	188	46.80	0	1	0	9	2
AM Rahane	2020-2023	15	29	1	803	112	28.67	1772	45.31	1	3	3	92	6
Shubman Gill	2020-2024	8	16	1	421	91	28.06	700	60.14	0	2	0	61	2
YBK Jaiswal	2023-2024	3	6	1	140	90*	28.00	286	48.95	0	1	2	18	2
CA Pujara	2020-2023	16	32	1	865	91	27.90	2607	33.17	0	8	2	114	0
GH Vihari	2020-2022	7	13	2	249	55	22.63	733	33.96	0	1	0	35	0
MA Agarwal	2020-2022	8	16	0	315	60	19.68	652	48.31	0	2	1	44	2
SN Thakur	2021-2023	9	17	0	327	67	19.23	510	64.11	0	4	3	41	9
PP Shaw	2020-2020	3	6	0	102	54	17.00	142	71.83	0	1	1	14	1
SS Iyer	2022-2024	3	6	1	75	31	15.00	107	70.09	0	0	1	11	1
KS Bharat	2023-2023	1	2	0	28	23	14.00	56	50.00	0	0	0	2	0
R Ashwin	2020-2023	9	17	1	208	46	13.00	387	53.74	0	0	3	28	0
Mohammed Shami	2020-2023	12	23	5	217	56*	12.05	296	73.31	0	1	5	29	3

damning stats in awaygames in sena.

very poor batsmen in sena conditions for indians.

atg bowling have been constantly saving their behinds for ages. since 2015

 

[uppercut]

Whatever floats your boat. LOL.

thats more applicable to you !!

I meant ICC events. Not random white ball bilateral tournament.

Again since most ICC Events are in White ball cricket ( and you use that to determine which is a better Cricketing side ) therefore "ACCORDING TO YOU" White Ball Cricket > Test Cricket ... correct ? Simple Yes/No answer please.

Anyway, my post was pretty self-explanatory.

Which as it stands ( according to you ) is that White Ball Cricket > Test Cricket

Prediction: You will never provide a straight answer.

BTW : The T20 WC this year was a "ICC Event"

 

[sweep_shot]

thats more applicable to you !!



Again since most ICC Events are in White ball cricket ( and you use that to determine which is a better Cricketing side ) therefore "ACCORDING TO YOU" White Ball Cricket > Test Cricket ... correct ? Simple Yes/No answer please.



Which as it stands ( according to you ) is that White Ball Cricket > Test Cricket

Prediction: You will never provide a straight answer.

BTW : The T20 WC this year was a "ICC Event"

In terms of priority, this should be the order:

1) ODI WC
2) Bilateral Test series and WTC
3) CT
4) World T20
5) Bilateral ODI series
6) Bilateral T20 series


I don't want to use complex word salad. Here's what an ATG team (which India is not) should achieve:

1) Winning multiple ICC tournaments.
2) Winning Test series everywhere (India couldn't win series in England, SA, and NZ; they also got whitewashed at home against NZ).
3) Having a good W/L ratio.

India have achieved #3 but not #1 and #2. Therefore, they are not an ATG team or even the best team. They are just a very good team.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

India owes it to him and Umesh yadav for their home domination. They missed him badly against NZ. He is probably they best reverse swing bowler in Indian history even ahead of Zaheer khan.

Yes. Forgot about Yadav. Bowls consistently quick every spell he bowls.

 

[uppercut]

In terms of priority, this should be the order:

1) ODI WC
2) CT
3) WTC
4) World T20
5) Bilateral Test series
6) Bilateral ODI series
7) Bilateral T20 series


I don't want to use complex word salad. Here's what an ATG team (which India is not) should achieve:

1) Winning multiple ICC tournaments.
2) Winning Test series everywhere (India couldn't win series in England, SA, and NZ; they also got whitewashed at home against NZ).
3) Having a good W/L ratio.

India have achieved #3 but not #1 and #2. Therefore, they are not an ATG team or even the best team. They are just a very good team.

If you ever wonder as to why NOBODY takes you seriously then this post is the EXACTO reason as to why that is the case. Ask me and I will explain.

 

[sweep_shot]

If you ever wonder as to why NOBODY takes you seriously then this post is the EXACTO reason as to why that is the case. Ask me and I will explain.

I have updated the post. There was a minor modification. Please check again.

I don't care if you don't take me seriously.

 

[hassan918]

@uppercut @sweep_shot please no personal attacks, please keep it nice and friendly here.​

 

[mb3407]

If you ever wonder as to why NOBODY takes you seriously then this post is the EXACTO reason as to why that is the case. Ask me and I will explain.

No team statifies all these simultaneously. Even the most ATGs ones. They all miss one or the other thing.

 

[sweep_shot]

No team statifies all these simultaneously. Even the most ATGs ones. They all miss one or the other thing.

Actually, Aussies did.

ATG Aussies won everywhere. They won in India (2004). They won in England (2001). They won in NZ. They won in SA. They won in SL. There was not a single country which they didn't conquer.

Current India team didn't do a fraction of that. They won just 1 ICC trophy in 11 years (that too a World T20). They failed to win Test series in England, SA, and NZ.

 

[mb3407]

Actually, Aussies did.

ATG Aussies won everywhere. They won in India (2004). They won in England (2001). They won in NZ. They won in SA. They won in SL. There was not a single country which they didn't conquer.

Current India team didn't do a fraction of that. They won just 1 ICC trophy in 11 years (that too a World T20). They failed to win Test series in England, SA, and NZ.

They failed in the champions trophy.

Also they didn't have t20s and WTC back then.

 

[sweep_shot]

They failed in the champions trophy.

Also they didn't have t20s and WTC back then.

Aussies won CT 2006. They didn't fail.

Anyway, the point is ATG Aussies have won every single thing there was to win. There wasn't anything left.

Can't say the same about this India. A very good team but not an ATG team or even the best team.

 

[mb3407]

Aussies won CT 2006. They didn't fail. LOL.

Anyway, the point is ATG Aussies have won every single there was to win. There wasn't anything left. Can't say the same about India.

Which time frame Aussies are you talking about?

 

[sweep_shot]

Which time frame Aussies are you talking about?

ATG Aussie team = 1999-2007.

McGrath, Warne etc. retired in 2007. So, I say it finished in 2007.

Anyway, let's not go off-topic.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

They thought it would push every country to start taking Tests seriously with this incentivization. Winner gets 1.6 million. Runner gets 0.8 million. It hasn't quiet worked well as there are some holes in this. Not every team play equal number of matches.

Yeah for me one of the problems is that all the teams besides India, Australia and England are not really playing enough matches. The responsibility for that mainly falls on their boards but if all the teams were bound to play a certain amount of matches and played equal number of matches (even if they were divided in groups) then it would be a much more even contest of skill.

But that requires vision and a willingness to make financial sacrifices—something the ICC is incapable of, and certain boards are unwilling to do.

 

[mb3407]

ATG Aussie team = 1999-2007.

McGrath, Warne etc. retired in 2007. So, I say it finished in 2007.

Anyway, let's not go off-topic.

They got humiliated in the Ashes 2005 which the Aussies themselves value over everything you mentioned. So they can't be ATG too

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Very good performance and the way Bumrah performed was sensational in particular.

However the thread title should be Namaste India.

 

[sweep_shot]

They got humiliated in the Ashes 2005 which the Aussies themselves value over everything you mentioned. So they can't be ATG too

Aussies won 2001 Ashes which was in England. Like I said, they have won everywhere. Can't say the same about this India who have not won series in England, SA, and NZ.

Let's return to topic.

 

[Smbhayi]

Best teams generally win more ICC trophies. For example, England were the best team from 2017 till 2022 and they won 2 World Cups during that period.

So that's means SA never been a great team..

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Mixing two things. Undisputed number one is simply who did better than other teams by a large margine. No other teams came even close to Indian performance home and away combined in that cycle. All home wins. Wins in Aus, Sl, WI, BD. Draw in SA, Eng. Loss in just one venue NZ. That's undisputed number one. More than that would have been ATG test team.

ATG teams are who wins everywhere. Undisputed number ones are not always ATG teams.

Some time it's not hard to give credit and move on.

I think Indian test side can be considered to be number 3 of all time.

Does that make them ATG?

If we think about how many different eras of test there has been and how many different sides/combinations then yeah.

They have a few unchecked boxes but are still far superior to most sides throughout the history of test cricket.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yeah for me one of the problems is that all the teams besides India, Australia and England are not really playing enough matches. The responsibility for that mainly falls on their boards but if all the teams were bound to play a certain amount of matches and played equal number of matches (even if they were divided in groups) then it would be a much more even contest of skill.

But that requires vision and a willingness to make financial sacrifices—something the ICC is incapable of, and certain boards are unwilling to do.

yes. Many boards do not even want 3 test series due to financial reasons. As long as that imbalance exists this WTC concept is good only on paper. It has some upsides. There are no dead rubbers anymore for some teams. Anyone who has remote possibility take every Test seriously in a series. It also enforces the teams to be mindful of over rate as it could them points. It is a different thing teams like England doesn't care about losing points for that. Other than that not much.

 

[mb3407]

Aussies won 2001 Ashes which was in England. Like I said, they have won everywhere. Can't say the same about this India who have not won series in England, SA, and NZ.

Let's return to topic.

No we will not move on , but do a fact check for the last time.

Besides Ashes 2005, they also lost to India in 2001

Also in the said period Australia lost not one or two but three champions trophies . In 2000, in 2002 and 2004. Not befitting an ATG to lose three consecutive championships trophies.

And they lost the 2007 t20 world cup as well.(Though you may ignore it)

An ATG team can't have so many losses

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

yes. Many boards do not even want 3 test series due to financial reasons. As long as that imbalance exists this WTC concept is good only on paper. It has some upsides. There are no dead rubbers anymore for some teams. Anyone who has remote possibility take every Test seriously in a series. It also enforces the teams to be mindful of over rate as it could them points. It is a different thing teams like England doesn't care about losing points for that. Other than that not much.

Yeah but this is why I think that ICC and other boards are just doing lip-service if they lament about the future of test cricket. If you really care about the future of test cricket then they should start making financial sacrifices. How can boards expect their teams to get better when they are playing 2 match test series?

 

[uppercut]

I have updated the post. There was a minor modification. Please check again.

I don't care if you don't take me seriously.

Doesn't matter as it has a fundamental flaw in that you do not recognize the difference between Test cricket and white-ball cricket. Here is the reason why: even BD and Pakistan have a significantly higher chance of Winning a T20 WC than winning a Test Series in AUS or India. Similarly while India did win the T20WC recently , yet it is significantly harder to win a 4 or 5 match test series in Australia. Just watch the BGT and you will understand why.


And most importantly there is NO ONE SINGLE TEAM that has achieved all of those things that you mentioned in your post because the Greatest Aussie team is the team lead by Steve Waugh who retired in 2003 and he never won a test series in India nor did he win a CT. You cannot randomly pick time frames to suit your arguments. Thats like shooting an arrow on a wall and then painting a Circle around it to claim a bullseye hit.​

Moreover what you are saying is that currently there is not a single team that is a clear #1 team lol.

And BTW this thread is clearly in the backdrop of the first BGT test match. So clearly it is about test cricket.

 

[Buffet]

I think Indian test side can be considered to be number 3 of all time.

Does that make them ATG?

If we think about how many different eras of test there has been and how many different sides/combinations then yeah.

They have a few unchecked boxes but are still far superior to most sides throughout the history of test cricket.

May be , may be not. I have not looked at all historical sides to be honest to pass that judgement, but yes they have been comfortably the top 3 test teams in the last 30 or so years.

You may have a point about having cutt off so high that only 2 test teams qualify for ATG team. We may be being too harsh. I think story is similar to spinners. We tend to see anyone below Murali/Warne as not worthy of ATG despite being very very good. No team outside of WI/Aus has won everywhere and actually for spin it's not even that. Murali and Warne were thrashed big time in couple of countries.

We tend to see it as criterion for pacers where you are supposed to do well everywhere and apply that logic to teams and spinners. With that filter we name lots of ATG pacers but only 2 ATG test team and 2 ATG spinner. I am limiting it to cricket after 70s. I don't know how to judge players playing in 1930s when cricket was played by amatuers. I make exception for Bradman because he was just so much ahead of others.

I think we all apply slightly different filter for ATG and we may have a bit different list due to that. I have seen cricket since early 90s( at least I was old enough to understand it) and only great Aus team passed the very strict filter. SA was right up there but they messed up at home too many times to get into that league. We all know about great WI team before that. then recent Indian test team which had flaws but did well pretty much everywhere.

Over all, I agree that Indian team was far superior to most sides throughout the history of test cricket. I personally won't call them ATG side due to guilty of using the same strict criterion you raised. They had ATG bowling for sure. Batting was not that strong.

Anyway, new cycle and new teams so lets see how all test teams do in the next 10 years. I like the fact that home teams not winning all the times. In middle it was boring because home teams were winning by default.

 

[deltexas]

In terms of priority, this should be the order:

1) ODI WC
2) Bilateral Test series and WTC
3) CT
4) World T20
5) Bilateral ODI series
6) Bilateral T20 series


I don't want to use complex word salad. Here's what an ATG team (which India is not) should achieve:

1) Winning multiple ICC tournaments.
2) Winning Test series everywhere (India couldn't win series in England, SA, and NZ; they also got whitewashed at home against NZ).
3) Having a good W/L ratio.

India have achieved #3 but not #1 and #2. Therefore, they are not an ATG team or even the best team. They are just a very good team.

i disagree. The best test team is Ban because they whitewashed Pak at home. Period..

 

[sweep_shot]

No we will not move on

Well, I have decided to move on. There is no real argument here.

Current Indian team is not in same level as Aussie ATG team. Aussie ATG team won Test series everywhere they played in (2001 England, 2004 India, NZ, SL, Windies, South Africa etc.). They have won 4 ICC trophies (1999, 2003, 2006, and 2007). They also never lost a single home series.

Can't say the same about this Indian team. They got whitewashed at home by NZ. They failed to win series in England, SA, and NZ. They won just 1 ICC trophy (that too a World T20 which is not that prestigious).

Just to reiterate, this Indian is a good team but not an ATG team or even the current best team. Best team would win more ICC trophies and wouldn't get whitewashed at home.

 

[mb3407]

An atg team would not fail three times consecutively in champions trophy. Would certainly not lose a test after giving a follow on.

I agree that this Indian team is not as good as prime Australia but it is the second best and still atg

 

[mb3407]

Well, I have decided to move on. There is no real argument here.

Current Indian team is not in same level as Aussie ATG team. Aussie ATG team won Test series everywhere they played in (2001 England, 2004 India, NZ, SL, Windies, South Africa etc.). They have won 4 ICC trophies (1999, 2003, 2006, and 2007). They also never lost a single home series.

Can't say the same about this Indian team. They got whitewashed at home by NZ. They failed to win series in England, SA, and NZ. They won just 1 ICC trophy (that too a World T20 which is not that prestigious).

Just to reiterate, this Indian is a good team but not an ATG team or even the current best team. Best team would win more ICC trophies and wouldn't get whitewashed at home.

Also this is a long period (10 years) and its not the same Aussie team.

Different captains should mean different teams.

 

[zaidihusain]

No doubt Indian cricket is at next level in every aspect, the good thing is they take all formats seriously not only 1 or 2 like England & Australia

 

[Vikram1989]

Hadlee, brilliant bowler, absolutely top class but has only 7 away wins in entire career due to not having support. It's very hard to win games if you depend on one gun bowler. Gun bowlers can't make up for others in all games.

Once Ramiz Raza said "As per Imran,you have to pull Hadlee for the first bouncer he bowled at u.Then he will never bowl bouncer again and will resort to different tactics. ".I never saw hadlee but am thinking hadlee never went on offensive against attacking batsmen on foreign soil as he is the sole dependendable bowler or doesn't have much courage.

 

[uppercut]

Just to reiterate, this Indian is a good team but not an ATG team or even the current best team. Best team would win more ICC trophies and wouldn't get whitewashed at home.

Then which is the best team right now according to you ?

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Then which is the best team right now according to you ?

I dunno, possibly the current World Champions or WTC champions?. Just a thought


India are having an amazing Test but have been whitewashed at home just this month

 

[kron]

Then which is the best team right now according to you ?

Australia.

 

[BouncerGuy]

What india is doing atm to Australia, we never expected that kind of stuff after seeing the first innings. Brilliant

 

[JaDed]

They have to win more ICC trophies to be labelled as the best.

Aussies have won 3 ICC trophies in the last 4 years. India have won 1 in the last 11 years.

We have won 2 in last 11 years. 2013, 2024, also WTC isn’t close to Bilateral Test series yet, winning in Aus would still trump WTC for most Indian fans on this forum.

 

[Savak]

Ramiz Raja once mentioned that because of IPL this present Australian team just butters up to the existing Indian team overall and are happy to lose to them. Any team which loses three consecutive test series at home vs the same opposition eventually gets a ruthless makeover but the Australian selectors are still persisting with the same bowling attack which has failed for three series in a row in their home conditions against th same opposition in the last 6 years.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Ramiz Raja once mentioned that because of IPL this present Australian team just butters up to the existing Indian team overall and are happy to lose to them. Any team which loses three consecutive test series at home vs the same opposition eventually gets a ruthless makeover but the Australian selectors are still persisting with the same bowling attack which has failed for three series in a row in their home conditions against th same opposition in the last 6 years.

It’s a misconception that cricketers that are mean to Bharat on the field will be punished / not picked in IPL.

Shoaib Akhtar, Andrew Symonds, Flintoff etc all good great deals in IPL. Symonds was the highest paid foreign player in the inaugural IPL which was right after the monkeygate.

 

[Savak]

It’s a misconception that cricketers that are mean to Bharat on the field will be punished / not picked in IPL.

Shoaib Akhtar, Andrew Symonds, Flintoff etc all good great deals in IPL. Symonds was the highest paid foreign player in the inaugural IPL which was right after the monkeygate.

Shoaib didn't get a good deal. He got picked for $425k. He was not happy with the offer, he felt he should have got atleast $1 million, SRK promised him extra pay behind the scenes to convince him. I believe Shoaib mentioned he was offered a much larger amount by the ICL in comparison which he turned down.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Shoaib didn't get a good deal. He got picked for $425k. He was not happy with the offer, he felt he should have got atleast $1 million, SRK promised him extra pay behind the scenes to convince him. I believe Shoaib mentioned he was offered a much larger amount by the ICL in comparison which he turned down.

It wasn’t a bad deal that year give. Akhtar didn’t play all matches. I think he joined mid season. How many fast bowlers got a better deal than Shoaib that season

 

[Savak]

It wasn’t a bad deal that year give. Akhtar didn’t play all matches. I think he joined mid season. How many fast bowlers got a better deal than Shoaib that season

Afridi got picked for $675k and he was a huge flop that season.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Afridi got picked for $675k and he was a huge flop that season.

Alrounders were seen as golden goose initially.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Everything I feared is coming true both Kohli and KL Rahul scoring runs.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You mean this Generations king Bat.

This generation's greatest Mr I can only bat on the easiest wickets.

 

[Rajdeep]

Ramiz Raja once mentioned that because of IPL this present Australian team just butters up to the existing Indian team overall and are happy to lose to them. Any team which loses three consecutive test series at home vs the same opposition eventually gets a ruthless makeover but the Australian selectors are still persisting with the same bowling attack which has failed for three series in a row in their home conditions against th same opposition in the last 6 years.

What is so wrong with Pakistani's yaar? Why they are always looking for some conspiracy?

If any Australian players or CA get to know this, they may sue this Raja guy.

 

[zarak]

Salaam Bumrah.

He’s an absolute trump card who turns the tables anywhere with his masterclass bowling. We are extremely extremely fortunate to have a fit Bumrah leading the way. We are a different team when Bumrah is in this kind of form.

Take him out of the equation and many of our triumphs do not exist.

Without question, one of the greatest ever fast bowlers.

100 more wickets and he's in the ATG list.

 

[Devadwal]

Next is Adelaide pink Ball test .

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860959591183368265