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Science and Religion

ManFan

ManFan

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Einstein, the TIME Magazine's person of the 20th century once stated, " science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ". Are both the same sides of the coin? Discuss.
 
Both are not compatible.

Religious books cannot be changed. They are rigid. They are the word of God(s) and you need to have blind faith in it and no evidence is required. Science continuously evolves and updates itself based on evidence.

They will always clash with each other.
 
Not necessarily the case. Certain aspects of religion can be explained by science. I would suggest Dr. Zaid Ghazzawi on Youtube. Science cant explain what happens after we die or our origins precisely.
 
ManFan said:
Not necessarily the case. Certain aspects of religion can be explained by science. I would suggest Dr. Zaid Ghazzawi on Youtube. Science cant explain what happens after we die or our origins precisely.
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Can religion explain it with proof? Anyone can write this and that and tell sheeple what happens after we die.

Science does tell what happens after we die. We become part of the elements. The very elements that make us.

But religious folks cannot accept that answer. They want an after life where they are in heaven enjoying themselves. Otherwise, they will go crazy.
 
troodon said:
Can religion explain it with proof? Anyone can write this and that and tell sheeple what happens after we die.

Science does tell what happens after we die. We become part of the elements. The very elements that make us.

But religious folks cannot accept that answer. They want an after life where they are in heaven enjoying themselves. Otherwise, they will go crazy.
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can science back it up with proff?
 
troodon said:
Can religion explain it with proof? Anyone can write this and that and tell sheeple what happens after we die.

Science does tell what happens after we die. We become part of the elements. The very elements that make us.

But religious folks cannot accept that answer. They want an after life where they are in heaven enjoying themselves. Otherwise, they will go crazy.
Click to expand...


Religion and science are branches of knowledge. Religion provides insights into the material world and its purpose, as well as the 'realm beyond human perception.' Science is focused upon the physical, material world and how it functions - but not why it exists.

Regarding 'proof' - if you could see God, The Creator, with your eyes, you would be, of necessity, compelled to believe in Him. This would, logically, make free will redundant, virtually non-existent, as you would be forced to accept the existence and Presence of God.

Faith, or the lack thereof, is about free will operating as God designed it to - some believe in Him, others do not.

Human beings are composed of many different 'elements', not just material ones; humans are spiritual, intellectual, emotional and physical. You are assuming human 'life' ends with death, but have no 'proof' to substantiate your belief. Belief in an afterlife merely accepts the notion that life continues, but in a different form.

If you do not believe in resurrection, then perhaps you ought to examine the earth and all life forms, how things die, are revived, regenerated, 'resurrected' - from the death of Winter to the early life of Spring, the death of the earth to its revival.

In any case, you are entitled to your beliefs. If your religion is 'Science explains it all' - then good for you.
 
Aquinas' Five Proofs of God are a good starting point for the discussion. Regardless, science and religion are not polar opposites and people who do say so, I think don't understand either.
 
ManFan said:
Aquinas' Five Proofs of God are a good starting point for the discussion. Regardless, science and religion are not polar opposites and people who do say so, I think don't understand either.
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Basic difference is there that separates them right from the beginning.

One goes by evidence and the other by blind faith.
 
Again, you are generalizing. There are plenty of thinkers who have used science not just experimental but also psychological along with logic and reasoning to support their argument of God. These include Thomas Aquinas, Allama Iqbal, and yes, even, Charles Darwin himself.
 
ManFan said:
Again, you are generalizing. There are plenty of thinkers who have used science not just experimental but also psychological along with logic and reasoning to support their argument of God. These include Thomas Aquinas, Allama Iqbal, and yes, even, Charles Darwin himself.
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Darwin was a Clergy man. He will still have some strings attached to religion.

Is Allama Iqbal a scientist?

Who is Thomas Aquinas? Never heard of him. Is he a Scientist who believed in God? Did he provide any evidence?
 
troodon said:
Darwin was a Clergy man. He will still have some strings attached to religion.

Is Allama Iqbal a scientist?

Who is Thomas Aquinas? Never heard of him. Is he a Scientist who believed in God? Did he provide any evidence?
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If you actually bothered to search any of the names I suggested than I would be happy to continue the conversation. :amir2
 
ManFan said:
If you actually bothered to search any of the names I suggested than I would be happy to continue the conversation. :amir2
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Looking for any modern recognized scientists who believed in God. Not some 12th century philosophers talking mambo jumbo without any proof.

Bhai, show me the evidence.
 
religion was the old world science.

After modern science becoming so influential you are now slowly seeing a decline of religion, in the first world anyway.

Third world will slowly move towards this as their populations become more educated.
 
I believe in higher power.. I just don't believe in one book based ideology. I firmly believe it was all created for money and power.
 
Black Zero said:
Science tells your harsh truths
Religion tells you sweet lies.
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What is the harsh truth? Or the sweet lies? That there is a heaven or hell? So you would prefer a system where Hitler or Stalin get away with tens and millions of deaths? Or suffer for their deeds? If there was a Big Bang and we are here by accident, than why are there morals? If we came from dust or matter, where did that matter come from. You can not have something come from nothing. There needs to be a starting point. As far as the scientific religious folk, I mentioned Dr. Zaid Ghazzawi.
 
Bhai, sociology and psychology are also sciences. As Iqbal stated about secularism, if religion is out of politics, then there is only Chengisi ( Genghis Khan ). BTW, less than 7% of all wars in human history have been about religion as can be found in " Encyclopedia of Wars " by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod.
 
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Religion scares me at times. There is no proof of what will happen when we die. All the hells and heavens and judgements, there is no real proof. What if we just disintegrate when we die? Or we stay alive buried in sand till our bits decompse into something else? All the beliefs we live on are at the end of the day just what we believe.

Science on the other hand is a clueless drop in ocean of knowledge.
 
ManFan said:
What is the harsh truth? Or the sweet lies? That there is a heaven or hell? So you would prefer a system where Hitler or Stalin get away with tens and millions of deaths? Or suffer for their deeds? If there was a Big Bang and we are here by accident, than why are there morals? If we came from dust or matter, where did that matter come from. You can not have something come from nothing. There needs to be a starting point. As far as the scientific religious folk, I mentioned Dr. Zaid Ghazzawi.
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I would prefer a better explanation then what most religions have to offer.

I would choose not to believe that this is all one big test to prove you are worthy.

especially when kids are being raped daily and mothers are being burnt alive.

Where is god in all this?
 
Personally if I was a leader and I wanted people to behave I would tell them this is one big test too.

And if you be good and don't get out of line then you will be in a beautiful paradise for eternity.
 
There cant be a good without an evil. You need to have the utmost of anything to compare it with. If you believe in evolution, you have to believe in good and bad along with hardships. Without conflict human beings could never evolve. As for the Where is God part, it reminds of an example I saw on the internet. One guy says that God is responsible for evil because he allows for it to happen. His listener throws water at him. The guy asks what did you do that for? He said I didn't do it, God did. Point is you have conscience, guilt, and conflict to allow for the freedom to choose.
 
ManFan said:
There cant be a good without an evil. You need to have the utmost of anything to compare it with. If you believe in evolution, you have to believe in good and bad along with hardships. Without conflict human beings could never evolve. As for the Where is God part, it reminds of an example I saw on the internet. One guy says that God is responsible for evil because he allows for it to happen. His listener throws water at him. The guy asks what did you do that for? He said I didn't do it, God did. Point is you have conscience, guilt, and conflict to allow for the freedom to choose.
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But if we have a conscience then so should god right?

If you were all seeing wouldn't you stop horrible acts like rape and mutilation from occurring? Or would you just let it happen and say to yourself its ok this is just a test for them.
 
humzy said:
I would prefer a better explanation then what most religions have to offer.

I would choose not to believe that this is all one big test to prove you are worthy.

especially when kids are being raped daily and mothers are being burnt alive.

Where is god in all this?
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Black Zero said:
Just believe in God and his prophet and eventually you would be in never lasting paradise.
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Just believe is not enough for this one.
 
Curiosity is the basis for religion, man needs to satisfy his curiosity and will always ask questions. Why is the ocean blue, where do the clouds come from, what happens when I die. We have to find answers for every question and will keep searching until we find them. Religion was created by man so they could answer questions. Questions we cannot find answers for drive us crazy and this is where religion helps out. Religion can answer all the questions we don't know the answer too, no proof need only faith.

People that can deal with not knowing answers, they don't know what happens when you die, they don't know why man was created, they don't know what the purpose of life is and just accept that there are things in life that you just don't know don't turn to religion.

Some people need to know the answers to those questions, and religion can provide answers on the proviso you believe.
 
Religion is nothing but a matrix created by few smart people to control the mass. They may have good intention to show everyone what is right thing to do but now concept of religion is being misused badly.
 
vagabond007ti said:
Religion is nothing but a matrix created by few smart people to control the mass. They may have good intention to show everyone what is right thing to do but now concept of religion is being misused badly.
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Can't speak for others been I know that it's been proven that the Quran could not be man made. How could an uneducated man walking in a desert in seventh century Arabia one day have all the knowledge?
 
ManFan said:
Can't speak for others been I know that it's been proven that the Quran could not be man made. How could an uneducated man walking in a desert in seventh century Arabia one day have all the knowledge?
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Only believers believe that it's Devine in nature.
Not a single non muslim scholar thinks that it's Devine. ..



Obvious from your post that you have not studied about the original sources of Quran...
Quran refects the level of knowledge of an uneducated man of 7th century
 
Black Zero said:
Only believers believe that it's Devine in nature.
Not a single non muslim scholar thinks that it's Devine. ..



Obvious from your post that you have not studied about the original sources of Quran...
Quran refects the level of knowledge of an uneducated man of 7th century
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I haven't done a comprehensive thesis paper on it but enough to fulfill my curiousity. As for being an atheist, I find it more illogical than praying to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you study the history of the Jewish people and Muslim people, they are exactly like the prophet said.
 
Jadz said:
Religion and science are branches of knowledge. Religion provides insights into the material world and its purpose, as well as the 'realm beyond human perception.' Science is focused upon the physical, material world and how it functions - but not why it exists.
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Religion is our species first attempt at everything, that's why it encompassing everything in past and slowly regressed from intellectual matters and retreat to political aspect of society.

Religion and Science has one common objective, de-mystifying the unknown, Science does it through the lense of evidence, no matter where it takes you. Where as religion is all about Faith(superstition is more important than material evidence). Evidence is not important for billions of Faithful, they believe because of cultural indoctrination rather than looking for reason and evidence...

Religion is first and foremost a political ideology and has political objectives more than anything else. Spreading knowledge through tools of intellect(evidence and reason) is not the objective of religion nor ethics and morals. Most of the morals uphold high by religion 1000 years ago are null/void in today's world. Modern ethics are based on reason, debate and evidence (tools of science than religion) rather than blindly following some or any holly-book...



Jadz said:
Regarding 'proof' - if you could see God, The Creator, with your eyes, you would be, of necessity, compelled to believe in Him. This would, logically, make free will redundant, virtually non-existent, as you would be forced to accept the existence and Presence of God.

Faith, or the lack thereof, is about free will operating as God designed it to - some believe in Him, others do not.
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Intellectually I am not sure why I have to submit myself to God, even if he exist? I am more interested and curious about his Technology(if there is such a thing as God), more of How part, then jumping to submission as soon as we discover God. Unless he threaten us(even then we ,may have a fight), why we have to submit our self? - Did we submit to Nazi or Super powers just because they are more powerful then us??

'How' leads to Why, not the other way around in the realm of Intellect. We don't assume only(and pretty much always assume about complex aspect of reality) and never question those assumptions. This is not how Science or Philosophy works. You have to question and understand the fundamentals, otherwise its a Faith(belief without evidence) rather than knowledge...That's why Scientist remains thirsty, they are always looking to peal another layer, rather than submitting to superstitions...

Blanket divine statements has not lead to an invention or betterment of life...Living standards are improve by building technology based on Science, that also include moral and ethics...Tribal culture that is endorse and propagated by religion is the source of all kind of hatred and discrimination even in today's world... Modern societies are rejecting Tribalism as core culture, which was name of the game when religion was thriving...

Jadz said:
Human beings are composed of many different 'elements', not just material ones; humans are spiritual, intellectual, emotional and physical. You are assuming human 'life' ends with death, but have no 'proof' to substantiate your belief. Belief in an afterlife merely accepts the notion that life continues, but in a different form.



If you do not believe in resurrection, then perhaps you ought to examine the earth and all life forms, how things die, are revived, regenerated, 'resurrected' - from the death of Winter to the early life of Spring, the death of the earth to its revival.

In any case, you are entitled to your beliefs. If your religion is 'Science explains it all' - then good for you.
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After life is another completely superstitious concept stem from various religions. It looks more of a mind game tactics by religion to control the masses than anything rooted in reality. Religion forces his ideas through political/military/economic power rather than trying to explain and reason his way out, that's another reason most modern intellectuals (Scientists, Artist, Philosophers) discredit religion as a source of truth and do not purse methods and or tools to religion to gain knowledge... You have to win the battle of intellect otherwise nobody takes you seriously...Spiritualism is a fad, many drugs work on your mind, but that does not make it real...In Pakistan one of the biggest educational challenge is 8th Century Madrassas teaching methods, that is spreading more ignorance and ill-tolerance(hence extremist) rather than creating citizen for 21st century. They don't build intellect nor skills to survive in modern day.

Also, Religion talks about After life a lot, but nothing about before life. Is that because its hard to exploit? - Nobody remembers what happened to them before they were born, well they did not exists, its reasonable to assume our state will be same when we die, unless there is an evidence that suggests otherwise.
 
Actually the problem with the Pakistani education system are not madraasas. They are still using the system invented by an Englishmen in the 19th century after the Sepoy Rebellion to control the masses. With the current system, children are educated in neither religious or worldly matters. Add to that the English and Urdu medium crap and you get a bowl of garbage. It all comes down to the leaders. If your leaders are lining their pockets than what is the future? Japan was in ruins in the mid twentieth century yet they invested in education and within fifty years, they were at the front of technology and business.
 
Gilly said:
Curiosity is the basis for religion, man needs to satisfy his curiosity and will always ask questions. Why is the ocean blue, where do the clouds come from, what happens when I die. We have to find answers for every question and will keep searching until we find them. Religion was created by man so they could answer questions. Questions we cannot find answers for drive us crazy and this is where religion helps out. Religion can answer all the questions we don't know the answer too, no proof need only faith.

People that can deal with not knowing answers, they don't know what happens when you die, they don't know why man was created, they don't know what the purpose of life is and just accept that there are things in life that you just don't know don't turn to religion.

Some people need to know the answers to those questions, and religion can provide answers on the proviso you believe.
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Curiosity will remain no matter how far advance we are in science as long as even science fail to answer the beginning.

If we look at scientific explaination of everything it is beautiful and makes sense. How the evolution and natural selection work. How suns and planets are formed. Everything makes sense but science fails to provide answer to the fundamental question..i.e the beginning. How it all started? Science links everything in the universe with some input. According to science the answer is big bang to all of these questions but what was before big bang? How could we have such an orderly and controlled universe forming just pure on luck? There has got to be some supreme force who started all this.
 
MRSN said:
Curiosity will remain no matter how far advance we are in science as long as even science fail to answer the beginning.

If we look at scientific explaination of everything it is beautiful and makes sense. How the evolution and natural selection work. How suns and planets are formed. Everything makes sense but science fails to provide answer to the fundamental question..i.e the beginning. How it all started? Science links everything in the universe with some input. According to science the answer is big bang to all of these questions but what was before big bang? How could we have such an orderly and controlled universe forming just pure on luck? There has got to be some supreme force who started all this.
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OK then who created god, how did he get there?.
 
ManFan said:
I haven't done a comprehensive thesis paper on it but enough to fulfill my curiousity. As for being an atheist, I find it more illogical than praying to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you study the history of the Jewish people and Muslim people, they are exactly like the prophet said.
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Nope
Sorry, you did not study any history.
 
ManFan said:
Actually the problem with the Pakistani education system are not madraasas. They are still using the system invented by an Englishmen in the 19th century after the Sepoy Rebellion to control the masses. With the current system, children are educated in neither religious or worldly matters. Add to that the English and Urdu medium crap and you get a bowl of garbage. It all comes down to the leaders. If your leaders are lining their pockets than what is the future? Japan was in ruins in the mid twentieth century yet they invested in education and within fifty years, they were at the front of technology and business.
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I don't disagree with the motives of Brits, that's a separate discussion. But rather than improving our education and culture, what we are trying to achieve by bring back 7th Century literature and way of life? - How that is going to help with making education/economy/living standard better??

You cannot just blame the leaders alone, you get what you uphold dear, People love religion and Army, that's what they are getting...Problem is with the message not the messenger...
 
MRSN said:
Curiosity will remain no matter how far advance we are in science as long as even science fail to answer the beginning.

If we look at scientific explaination of everything it is beautiful and makes sense. How the evolution and natural selection work. How suns and planets are formed. Everything makes sense but science fails to provide answer to the fundamental question..i.e the beginning. How it all started? Science links everything in the universe with some input. According to science the answer is big bang to all of these questions but what was before big bang? How could we have such an orderly and controlled universe forming just pure on luck? There has got to be some supreme force who started all this.
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This statement "God created everything but he himself was never created by anything" is actually a Scientific statement, a very poor one without any logic or evidence behind it. This is an insult to enterprise of Science, statements like this would be OK when Science was primitive, but in this day and age nobody is going to give you primary school degree forget about PHD, if this is your line of argument :facepalm:
 
MRSN said:
Curiosity will remain no matter how far advance we are in science as long as even science fail to answer the beginning.

If we look at scientific explaination of everything it is beautiful and makes sense. How the evolution and natural selection work. How suns and planets are formed. Everything makes sense but science fails to provide answer to the fundamental question..i.e the beginning. How it all started? Science links everything in the universe with some input. According to science the answer is big bang to all of these questions but what was before big bang? How could we have such an orderly and controlled universe forming just pure on luck? There has got to be some supreme force who started all this.
Click to expand...

Half of the knowledge science has given us has been produced in the last 200 years, Just because science cannot answer questions now, does not mean that science will never be able to answer it. Who knows what knowledge we will have in the next 200 years of progressive science.
 
ManFan said:
Einstein, the TIME Magazine's person of the 20th century once stated, " science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ". Are both the same sides of the coin? Discuss.
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Dear ManFan, as far as I am aware of things people have little or no idea at all about how to look at concept of God and revelation of God, science and philosophy. This forum does not allow members to explain things in detail for people to start a meaningful debate for a definite outcome. In other words this forum is not for any serious discussion but a play thing for amusement of already confused people who do not wish to learn from others who may know better.

Coming to science, the quran contains many verses which are basis for science. One only has to look at verses which put emphasis upon use of brain and senses for a human being otherwise one is as good as an animal or not even that good. The quran puts before humanity clear or indisputable evidences when it tells them to do something or not to do something because it will result in good or bad outcome for them. It puts fear in minds of people through warnings so that people do not go the way whereby they could end up in terrible situations and then they end up regretting those situations. This is clearly a scientific approach. The quran asks people if they have created themselves. If not then who has created them other than Allah?

Scientists do not say God does not exist because they do not accept anything that does not already exist can come into to existence out of nothingness without its creator creating it. Even those scientists who claim things could have come into existence out of nothingness qualify this nothing by saying they do not mean absolute nothing by this nothingness.

No philosopher has found any explanation of existence whereby God could be eliminated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46sKeycH3bE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tznxK3etagE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcOJ2dckzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyth_yoJBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bds92P1wkZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXaiu8rYRSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD80iDlKc5Q

regards and all the best.
 
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Many things which the people of Pakistan practice is not written in the Quran. You cannot blame a religion when its followers are inept. As cities grow larger, their moral values and economy decrease. As far as 7th century literature, if something survives hundreds of years in its original form, it has to be incredible. The past does not mean caveman teachings. Sharia law was implemented in Afghanistan and they did create their own in some aspects such as killing barbers who give a shave but the ones they implemented were well received. Dont believe me? My cousin's teacher once visited Afghanistan during that period and left his gold watch while performing wudu. It was still there the next day because whoever would have stolen it would have gotten their hand cut off. When I mentioned history of the jews and muslims, I was trying to get at something when talking to [MENTION=136626]blackzero[/MENTION].
 
Forgot science, if you believe in math, you would know that something can not come out of nothing. There has to be a beginning point. As Aquinas said, " The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum ".
 
troodon said:
Looking for any modern recognized scientists who believed in God. Not some 12th century philosophers talking mambo jumbo without any proof.

Bhai, show me the evidence.
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Zaid Ghazzawi. Hes on Youtube, bhai jaan.
 
Mughal said:
Dear ManFan, as far as I am aware of things people have little or no idea at all about how to look at concept of God and revelation of God, science and philosophy. This forum does not allow members to explain things in detail for people to start a meaningful debate for a definite outcome. In other words this forum is not for any serious discussion but a play thing for amusement of already confused people who do not wish to learn from others who may know better.

Coming to science, the quran contains many verses which are basis for science. One only has to look at verses which put emphasis upon use of brain and senses for a human being otherwise one is as good as an animal or not even that good. The quran puts before humanity clear or indisputable evidences when it tells them to do something or not to do something because it will result in good or bad outcome for them. It puts fear in minds of people through warnings so that people do not go the way whereby they could end up in terrible situations and then they end up regretting those situations. This is clearly a scientific approach. The quran asks people if they have created themselves. If not then who has created them other than Allah?

Scientists do not say God does not exist because they do not accept anything that does not already exist can come into to existence out of nothingness without its creator creating it. Even those scientists who claim things could have come into existence out of nothingness qualify this nothing by saying they do not mean absolute nothing by this nothingness.

No philosopher has found any explanation of existence whereby God could be eliminated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46sKeycH3bE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tznxK3etagE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcOJ2dckzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyth_yoJBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bds92P1wkZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXaiu8rYRSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD80iDlKc5Q

regards and all the best.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. There aren't any such restrictions on this forum. We don't have any issues with posters going into detail as long as their posts are reasonable in length (maybe set a limit of 1000 words per post in order to avoid making the thread slow or unstable to load). Of course, if the limit means you can't fit everything into one post, you can simply spread out what you want to write across multiple posts.
 
Science disproves religion.

They don't go along together, and to remain relevent in this era religion has had to accept defeat to science while also trying to maintaining its own authenticity.

The smarter youth of this day and age with the thirst for knowledge for this reason can't make sense of religion.

How can you possibly believe in something when there is no proof? Only books that have been altered by many peope throughout the centuries for political purpose.

People must stop being so controlled and live their own lives. Just because your parents were religious and their parents before them and on doesn't mean you have to blindly follow the same thing as well.

But it's ultimately hard to help people who are already lost in their fantasies because religion was integrated into them since their youth, that is why you cannot help but respect people who escape it because they had immense mental strength.
 
ManFan said:
Einstein, the TIME Magazine's person of the 20th century once stated, " science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ". Are both the same sides of the coin? Discuss.
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Who's religion? And which sect / sub-sect / branch .... of that religion? Considering that the mere existence of a separate branch, of a sub-sect, of a sect, of a religion ..... means that, by definition, the believers/followers of each and everyone one are effectively saying that all the others are wrong.

This explains it best.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.

I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too!" "Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
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Source: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion
 
ManFan said:
Forgot science, if you believe in math, you would know that something can not come out of nothing. There has to be a beginning point. As Aquinas said, " The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum ".
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But maths exists in a meta-universe where we have perfect understanding of absolute rules, whereas the universe is physical and not all our rules for it apply in all situations. Everything breaks down at a singularity and at the Big Bang as you have infinite mass occupying a dimensionless point at the beginning of spacetime.
 
Both can go hand in hand as long as one has an open mind to keep evolving and accept new truths if and when they come out..
 
super hitter said:
There's a deep relation between infinity and the universe that god has created.

Sorry for late replies, can't use pp due to busy routine...pp on phone kind of sucks
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Infinity in not a natural/real number.
It's just an abstract concept.
 
CricFan2012 said:
Science disproves religion.
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Basically this, hence the two can not coexist. There's a reason scientists were a persecuted class back in medieval Europe when the Church called the shots, and scientific thought remains anathema in parts of the world where religion still plays a major role in day to day life (parts of the United States, Islamic world etc.). Just recently, Turkey, a formerly secular state (still secular on paper but it's more Indian style secularism now), removed evolution from it's textbooks joining the ranks of such illustrious cradles of scientific thought as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Why? Because admitting that evolution exists negates large parts of Islamic dogma (Adam and Eve story for starters).
 
Black Zero said:
Infinity in not a natural/real number.
It's just an abstract concept.
Click to expand...

Its interesting that abstraction is not our strongest suite, maybe that's why its not taught first. Our brain is a pattern recognition engine for most part, its not very comfortable with anomalies and corner cases, most people are scared of unusual, out of routine thinking or patterns in life, is not natural, they are discomforting to us.

People at first were not comfortable with concepts of zero, Guy who come up with irrational number in accent greek had to face great adversity from his peers, almost oustered from society. Even Einstein was not comfortable with uncertainty principle. That's why Authorities are so keen on indoctrination, weather it is state, society, religion etc they all focus on indoctrination.

Where as in life you learn more chaos, failures and issues than when things sail smoothly. 80% of the software is written to handle 5/10% of the scenarios/situations, Singularities hold Secrete of universe...

That's the other reason I feel religion and Science are poles apart, religion is almost not a adult tool anymore, we have grown out of it ;-)
 
yasir said:
Its interesting that abstraction is not our strongest suite, maybe that's why its not taught first. Our brain is a pattern recognition engine for most part, its not very comfortable with anomalies and corner cases, most people are scared of unusual, out of routine thinking or patterns in life, is not natural, they are discomforting to us.

People at first were not comfortable with concepts of zero, Guy who come up with irrational number in accent greek had to face great adversity from his peers, almost oustered from society. Even Einstein was not comfortable with uncertainty principle. That's why Authorities are so keen on indoctrination, weather it is state, society, religion etc they all focus on indoctrination.

Where as in life you learn more chaos, failures and issues than when things sail smoothly. 80% of the software is written to handle 5/10% of the scenarios/situations, Singularities hold Secrete of universe...

That's the other reason I feel religion and Science are poles apart, religion is almost not a adult tool anymore, we have grown out of it ;-)
Click to expand...

If by "we", you meant ~10% of us humans, then I am in agreement.

Our brain has not changed during last 80000 years and still functioning on old "firmware" so in my opinion religion is not going anywhere. Old and backward religions would be replaced by new and improved religions.
 
Black Zero said:
If by "we", you meant ~10% of us humans, then I am in agreement.

Our brain has not changed during last 80000 years and still functioning on old "firmware" so in my opinion religion is not going anywhere. Old and backward religions would be replaced by new and improved religions.
Click to expand...

:))

You are right, Scientist, Artist, pioneer, leaders etc are always 10%(give and take) of the population, there are lot more sheep(even the plural of sheep is sheep ;-))...Most people are looking for a God to worship, they are more inclined to obedience than questioning... Its more of change of guards, superstition will(and is getting) get out of fashion...


I don't get the conservative principles, even if God exists why they jump to obedience?...Same conservative are hell bend to not knee down to Western civilization. Although they want the goodies of their tech(from medicines, plans to internet and iPhones)...Why go for absolute submission to God, when is so arrogant, divisive, cruel? - In reality they don't, its always cherry picking based on self interest...Religion is in their self interest, its easy to manipulate people with superstition...
 
Black Zero said:
You want to quote verses in which pipe dreams are sold?
Or you want me to talk about harsh realities of biological science?
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as harsh truths or sweet lies. I was just pointing out the lack of scientific substance in such a statement.
 
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