Secular Extremism

[KingKhanWC]

We know many new age militant atheists such as Dawkins and Sam Harris who create bigotry towards people who follow religions, often using degrading abuse language.

We also have France leading the way in state secular extremism. In it's latest move...

A French town has been told it must take down its statue of the Virgin Mary to comply with a national ban on religious symbols in public spaces, the town's mayor said on Saturday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38196238

What is most strange is people who don't believe in a God spend more time discussing God than those who believe. Do they have mental issues or is this just another form of extremism?

 

[endymion248]

Wonder how people who blame the burka ban on biggotry will spin this.

 

[DW44]

Lol, this isn't extremism any more than a Muslim offering Friday prayers in a congregation is. Secular states are built on the premise that the state will not endorse any religion nor will it treat any religion preferentially over others. As with most cases of religious extremists lamenting their secular counterparts, whether or not the latter even exist being an entirely different debate altogether, some crucial details are conveniently missed out. The statue in question was built by a local government using public money. Public money being spent on a religious symbol in a secular state is naturally a big no-no so it's a perfectly reasonable response to direct the responsible official to remove the statue from public grounds and put it on private property, nothing extremist about it. They didn't even bother to seek reimbursement from the official which they'd be will within their rights to considering the official spent the money on something that is illegal. Extremism is when a state executes someone for verbally criticizing the state religion.

 

[Slog]

What is most strange is people who don't believe in a God spend more time discussing God than those who believe. Do they have mental issues or is this just another form of extremism?

Its not strange. When the people believing in God keep shoving their religion in your face and making public shows of it you kinda have to acknowledge and discuss it. Ofcourse theres the added danger of the said believer being willing to kill you if you cross him so no one can just afford to go as is and ignore everthing.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol, this isn't extremism any more than a Muslim offering Friday prayers in a congregation is. Secular states are built on the premise that the state will not endorse any religion nor will it treat any religion preferentially over others. As with most cases of religious extremists lamenting their secular counterparts, whether or not the latter even exist being an entirely different debate altogether, some crucial details are conveniently missed out. The statue in question was built by a local government using public money. Public money being spent on a religious symbol in a secular state is naturally a big no-no so it's a perfectly reasonable response to direct the responsible official to remove the statue from public grounds and put it on private property, nothing extremist about it. They didn't even bother to seek reimbursement from the official which they'd be will within their rights to considering the official spent the money on something that is illegal. Extremism is when a state executes someone for verbally criticizing the state religion.

Firstly it's important to make it clear you are a former Muslim who has left the religion and advocates secularism.

According to your last sentence extremism is when physical violence is carried out. lol

The reality is extremism is simply holding an extreme VIEW. Regardless who funded the statue, it does no harm to society, neither does wearing a Burkini on the beach or wearing a headscarf to school. To deny such harmless things is an extreme view point.

You deny the existence of a creator so why spend so much of your time esp since you believe this is your only life discussing it?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its not strange. When the people believing in God keep shoving their religion in your face and making public shows of it you kinda have to acknowledge and discuss it. Ofcourse theres the added danger of the said believer being willing to kill you if you cross him so no one can just afford to go as is and ignore everthing.

I don't think anyone has shoved it down the throats of Dawkins and Harris.

Over 90% of the world are believers, one a 0.1% would think of killing someone because they abused their faith.

 

[Slog]

You deny the existence of a creator so why spend so much of your time esp since you believe this is your only life discussing it?

Because people like you keep shoving it in his faces and the tableeghi jamaat type needy people keep trying to get him on what they say is the right path.

It's hardly a case of him going out of his way to discuss this. It's shoved in his face by society everyday

 

[Slog]

I don't think anyone has shoved it down the throats of Dawkins and Harris.

Over 90% of the world are believers, one a 0.1% would think of killing someone because they abused their faith.

Shows how out of touch with Pakistan you are?

You think the poster doesn't have atleast a dozen people over every few months inquiring about his prayer habits and whatnot? And God forbid if he tells the loons that he doesn't ascribe to their views do you think they let him be in Peace?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Because people like you keep shoving it in his faces and the tableeghi jamaat type needy people keep trying to get him on what they say is the right path.

It's hardly a case of him going out of his way to discuss this. It's shoved in his face by society everyday

Ive never met the chap and have never shoved anything down his face, unless you can provide some evidence for this claim.

He lives in a majority Muslim nation where religion is a very important part of daily life. Is the call to prayer be sounded also shoving it down his throat?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

All forms of extremism are bad, lets get that straight. Everybody deserves the right to live a life as they see fit once it doesn't affect others. Any secularist who looks down on religious believers or who wants religion totally banned is little better than the religious extremists he's fighting against.

However I struggle to see how secular extremism is really an issue. Does any country on earth have a secular extreme position or secular ideology negatively influencing the lives of people in an unfair manner?? Even if said society exists, or if you see France as an example, the courts can be used to challenge any decision made by the government in a fair and just fashion. France's position as far as I'm aware is that religious symbols are banned from public places, whats wrong with that??

Even in a secular extremist society, assuming one exists lets say, the rights and beliefs of absolutely nobody have been infringed since the secularism that I'm aware of does not ban religion but merely bans religion from public influence, something any true believer who isn't insecure or who can analyse the world neutrally can agree with, as they can freely pray and worship as they see fit once they don't affect others who want nothing to do with it. All secularism does, in theory, is place religion of all sorts on an equal playing field, and separates it from governmental decisions the main purpose of which should always be to look after everybody, not just the majority or a certain sect.

Compare it with religious extremism which by and large has killed more people than practically anything else on the planet and I fail to see how secular extremism is a large issue.

 

[Slog]

Ive never met the chap and have never shoved anything down his face, unless you can provide some evidence for this claim.

He lives in a majority Muslim nation where religion is a very important part of daily life. Is the call to prayer be sounded also shoving it down his throat?

No call to the prayer isn't

But being constantly invited to attend prayers and go on religious trips and being confronted for not praying is definitely shoving religion down ones throat

By all accounts it's really bad in the Punjab side because my colleagues from Lahore say our office/work environment is secular (def not) compared to what he had in Lahore

 

[DW44]

Firstly it's important to make it clear you are a former Muslim who has left the religion and advocates secularism.

That's amply clear to everyone who has been on this forum any time since 2012.

According to your last sentence extremism is when physical violence is carried out. lol

Not necessarily, violence is one of many ways extremism manifests itself.

The reality is extremism is simply holding an extreme VIEW. Regardless who funded the statue, it does no harm to society, neither does wearing a Burkini on the beach or wearing a headscarf to school. To deny such harmless things is an extreme view point.

Massive, massive fallacy right there. First, there's no comparison between this and the burkini ban. This is a secular state doing exactly what it's supposed to and distancing itself from religious expression. The state does not, however, ban anyone from erecting their own statues of Mary in their backyards. The state itself, however, is built on a foundation of separation between church and state so public funds being spent on religious symbols is rightly illegal. The burkini ban, on the other hand, is simply a product of bigotry and has nothing to do with secularism despite some on the right using it as an excuse since it's a lot easier to convince an anti-Muslim public of something by telling them it violates the principles their state is built on than saying 'hey, we all hate them so lets make their lives as miserable as possible'.

You deny the existence of a creator so why spend so much of your time esp since you believe this is your only life discussing it?

Because, as [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] said, religious folk make it a point to shove their religiosity down your throats and I live in one of the most extremist Muslim societies on the face of the planet so religion is constantly shoved in my face whether I like it or not, just like it is with anyone who lives here unless they spend your life exclusively in the confines of their home, cut off from the rest of the world. When you have to spend the better part of your day pretending to be something you despise because being outed as a nonbeliever will almost certainly put you in mortal danger, you tend to be vocal about religion and it's ill effects on society.

 

[DW44]

No call to the prayer isn't

But being constantly invited to attend prayers and go on religious trips and being confronted for not praying is definitely shoving religion down ones throat

By all accounts it's really bad in the Punjab side because my colleagues from Lahore say our office/work environment is secular (def not) compared to what he had in Lahore

Lahore is probably not the best example since it's pretty extreme for a major city even by Pakistani standards but even here in ISB, which is supposedly crawling with whiskey drinking liberal fascists, I have prayed in congregations on at least four or five occasions AFTER giving up on religion on very bitter terms. All of these aforementioned incidents were during work hours, with colleagues and the chances of me volunteering to go to the mosque are not exactly hard to guess.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Just out of curiosity [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] (and I do wonder sometimes how you have the patience to post in such detail here despite being a minority opinion, one I almost always agree with mind) what sort of daily or regular occurrences do you have to put up with when it comes to the topic of religion when it comes to general life or work etc, if you dont mind me asking.

 

[Robert]

We know many new age militant atheists such as Dawkins and Sam Harris who create bigotry towards people who follow religions, often using degrading abuse language.

We also have France leading the way in state secular extremism. In it's latest move...

This is not extremism as violence is not advocated.

Dawkins and Harris are harsh critics of religious people who use violence. Indeed before 9/11 Dawkins was happy to ignore science-deniers.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No call to the prayer isn't

But being constantly invited to attend prayers and go on religious trips and being confronted for not praying is definitely shoving religion down ones throat

By all accounts it's really bad in the Punjab side because my colleagues from Lahore say our office/work environment is secular (def not) compared to what he had in Lahore

Why is it hard to simply decline the offer?

 

[Pakpak]

Just out of curiosity [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] (and I do wonder sometimes how you have the patience to post in such detail here despite being a minority opinion, one I almost always agree with mind) what sort of daily or regular occurrences do you have to put up with when it comes to the topic of religion when it comes to general life or work etc, if you dont mind me asking.

I can give some myself.

-Pretending to fast during Ramadan, if people see you not fasting then unless you're on your deathbed you'll be ostracized
-At dinners, when everyone decides to pray you pretty much have to as well
-Same for stuff like Eid prayers etc

Now that I live alone with my wife I am glad I don't have to pretend but when I am with my folks or in their neighbourhood I do have to pretend to act something which I am not, when in any civilized society I shouldn't be pretending. And I am not talking uneducated people, these are doctors, accountants etc.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is not extremism as violence is not advocated.

Dawkins and Harris are harsh critics of religious people who use violence. Indeed before 9/11 Dawkins was happy to ignore science-deniers.

Extremism is simply holding an extreme view, no violence doesn't mean the view is not extreme.

Some extreme quotes.

“Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one.” Dawkins

"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.”

― Richard Dawkins

Dawkins tweeted: “Haven't read Koran so couldn't quote chapter & verse like I can for the Bible. But often say Islam greatest force for evil today.” In a recorded interview, he described Islam as “One of the great evils in the world.” Pretty clear then: he regards Islam as a particularly objectionable religion.

Dawkins subsequently tweeted: “Of course you can have an opinion about Islam without having read Qur'an. You don't have to read Mein Kampf to have an opinion about Nazism.”

He also glorifies one of the most extreme bigoted films ever made about Islam.

Dawkins wrote: “Geert Wilders, if it should turn out that you are a racist or a gratuitous stirrer and provocateur I withdraw my respect, but on the strength of Fitna alone I salute you as a man of courage, who has the balls to stand up to a monstrous enemy.”

There are countless more quotes out there.

If these aren't extreme then I don't what is.

 

[DW44]

Just out of curiosity [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] (and I do wonder sometimes how you have the patience to post in such detail here despite being a minority opinion, one I almost always agree with mind) what sort of daily or regular occurrences do you have to put up with when it comes to the topic of religion when it comes to general life or work etc, if you dont mind me asking.

Mostly, though definitely not always, minor stuff but it all adds up over the course of the day and someone averse to overt religiosity can easily get frustrated. One of the more mundane areas where it comes up is which hand you eat and drink water with. The former isn't an issue since I eat with my right hand but the latter used to come up a lot at my first job because I drink/smoke with my left hand and there was always someone at the water dispenser to remind me how bad drinking with your left hand/drinking while standing up/not doing so in exactly three gulps is. The food issue came up once at a Hardees outlet(their fries are half salt half potatoes) when I had a deep cut on my right index finger so I was eating fries with my left hand and got soundly chastised for it by my boss. The funniest incident by far though was when a particularly religious coworker accosted me outside a restroom cubicle to lecture on how sinful it is to urinate standing up. It works the same way with pretty much all the little things an average person does over the course of an average day though most don't notice it because by the time they grow up, they've been conditioned to do things the right way.

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

Religion also invariably finds its way into normal conversations because there's an Islamic way for everything and any discussion on anything includes the Islamic way of doing it. This can get bad if you're stuck with a particularly bad lot. Between late 2014 and late 2015, I had to work in a field office several hundred miles from home and one of my colleagues/roommates was a member of Jamat ud Dawa(charity/political wing of the organization responsible for Mumbai 2008). That one year passed in a cacophony of heated arguments(ironically enough, the guy was very fond of alcohol).

There's also the family issues e.g. my mother is very devout and the constant badgering to "get back on the right path" can get to you fast. On average, if I speak to her ten times a day about ten different things, ten times I'll be pled with to do the right thing. I still haven't talked to my father about it after four years because that could get very ugly in a hurry.

The most serious issue, however, is the threat of being outed because that's pretty much a certain death sentence, either at the hands of a mob or legally through a particularly creative application of the blasphemy laws(there are no specific laws for apostasy here).

 

[Pakpak]

Mostly, though definitely not always, minor stuff but it all adds up over the course of the day and someone averse to overt religiosity can easily get frustrated. One of the more mundane areas where it comes up is which hand you eat and drink water with. The former isn't an issue since I eat with my right hand but the latter used to come up a lot at my first job because I drink/smoke with my left hand and there was always someone at the water dispenser to remind me how bad drinking with your left hand/drinking while standing up/not doing so in exactly three gulps is. The food issue came up once at a Hardees outlet(their fries are half salt half potatoes) when I had a deep cut on my right index finger so I was eating fries with my left hand and got soundly chastised for it by my boss. The funniest incident by far though was when a particularly religious coworker accosted me outside a restroom cubicle to lecture on how sinful it is to urinate standing up. It works the same way with pretty much all the little things an average person does over the course of an average day though most don't notice it because by the time they grow up, they've been conditioned to do things the right way.

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

Religion also invariably finds its way into normal conversations because there's an Islamic way for everything and any discussion on anything includes the Islamic way of doing it. This can get bad if you're stuck with a particularly bad lot. Between late 2014 and late 2015, I had to work in a field office several hundred miles from home and one of my colleagues/roommates was a member of Jamat ud Dawa(charity/political wing of the organization responsible for Mumbai 2008). That one year passed in a cacophony of heated arguments(ironically enough, the guy was very fond of alcohol).

There's also the family issues e.g. my mother is very devout and the constant badgering to "get back on the right path" can get to you fast. On average, if I speak to her ten times a day about ten different things, ten times I'll be pled with to do the right thing. I still haven't talked to my father about it after four years because that could get very ugly in a hurry.

The most serious issue, however, is the threat of being outed because that's pretty much a certain death sentence, either at the hands of a mob or legally through a particularly creative application of the blasphemy laws(there are no specific laws for apostasy here).

So many things I can relate to there

 

[KingKhanWC]

Mostly, though definitely not always, minor stuff but it all adds up over the course of the day and someone averse to overt religiosity can easily get frustrated. One of the more mundane areas where it comes up is which hand you eat and drink water with. The former isn't an issue since I eat with my right hand but the latter used to come up a lot at my first job because I drink/smoke with my left hand and there was always someone at the water dispenser to remind me how bad drinking with your left hand/drinking while standing up/not doing so in exactly three gulps is. The food issue came up once at a Hardees outlet(their fries are half salt half potatoes) when I had a deep cut on my right index finger so I was eating fries with my left hand and got soundly chastised for it by my boss. The funniest incident by far though was when a particularly religious coworker accosted me outside a restroom cubicle to lecture on how sinful it is to urinate standing up. It works the same way with pretty much all the little things an average person does over the course of an average day though most don't notice it because by the time they grow up, they've been conditioned to do things the right way.

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

Religion also invariably finds its way into normal conversations because there's an Islamic way for everything and any discussion on anything includes the Islamic way of doing it. This can get bad if you're stuck with a particularly bad lot. Between late 2014 and late 2015, I had to work in a field office several hundred miles from home and one of my colleagues/roommates was a member of Jamat ud Dawa(charity/political wing of the organization responsible for Mumbai 2008). That one year passed in a cacophony of heated arguments(ironically enough, the guy was very fond of alcohol).

There's also the family issues e.g. my mother is very devout and the constant badgering to "get back on the right path" can get to you fast. On average, if I speak to her ten times a day about ten different things, ten times I'll be pled with to do the right thing. I still haven't talked to my father about it after four years because that could get very ugly in a hurry.

The most serious issue, however, is the threat of being outed because that's pretty much a certain death sentence, either at the hands of a mob or legally through a particularly creative application of the blasphemy laws(there are no specific laws for apostasy here).

Strange, I know many people who go to Pakistan from the UK openly do not fast, drink alchohol, go out with girls, don't pray etc nothing is ever said to them.

Do you think your family are extremists for shoving it down your throat?

 

[Rayyman]

I disagree with Secularism. I think that religion is important in any society.

 

[Pakpak]

I disagree with Secularism. I think that religion is important in any society.

Says a guy who lives in USA, I mean you can't make this up.

 

[Pakpak]

Strange, I know many people who go to Pakistan from the UK openly do not fast, drink alchohol, go out with girls, don't pray etc nothing is ever said to them.

Do you think your family are extremists for shoving it down your throat?

Not everyone knows the same people.

People I know, only maybe 2-3 are like me, the rest in my social circle are exactly how DW44 described it in his post.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Not everyone knows the same people.

People I know, only maybe 2-3 are like me, the rest in my social circle are exactly how DW44 described it in his post.

This doesn't tell us much, go into detail regarding your personal experiences, beliefs and support of secularism.

 

[Rayyman]

Says a guy who lives in USA, I mean you can't make this up.

We used to be a fairly religious country. With good Christian values. The 1st president- Washington said to never meddle in affairs with other countries. And now U.S. is known as the global "peacemaker", at least to Americans they are. Thomas Jefferson (3rd president) had a Qur'an in his house and Abraham Lincoln (16th president) was very morally upright and was known as "Honest Abe". We compare that to Obama who used to regularly smoke marijuana and Trump who is a pervert and it can safely be said that as religion goes, most of the time, so do morals.

 

[DW44]

Strange, I know many people who go to Pakistan from the UK openly do not fast, drink alchohol, go out with girls, don't pray etc nothing is ever said to them.

So what? There are three people on this thread alone who have lived in Pakistan their entire lives who are contradicting you but off course you, the Brit who has spent maybe a year or two tops in Pakistan spread out over several decades, knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who went to Pakistan this one time and wasn't harassed by the religious police that is the Pakistani public which is off course conclusive evidence that nothing of the sort ever happens in Pakistan.

Do you think your family are extremists for shoving it down your throat?

No but they are sickeningly religious. They don't agree with executing blasphemers/apostates, declaring people kafir based on sectarian differences, state enforcing religious edicts through legislation, marrying off minors, boycotting banks or expecting others to live up to their religious standards. Those are some of the things that make you an extremist. Pestering your atheist son to become Muslim again does not.

 

[Robert]

Extremism is simply holding an extreme view, no violence doesn't mean the view is not extreme.

Some extreme quotes.

If these aren't extreme then I don't what is.

You seem to define extremism as comments about religion which you disagree with. You might as well call me an extremist, in that case. I am sure you do not agre with reincarnation, so by your definition, you are extremist too.

To me, extremism would be a state ban on the right to worship, or a threat of harm to someone who thinks differently to you. People who would defend their own beliefs by hurting others are extreme.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You seem to define extremism as comments about religion which you disagree with. You might as well call me an extremist, in that case. I am sure you do not agre with reincarnation, so by your definition, you are extremist too.

To me, extremism would be a state ban on the right to worship, or a threat of harm to someone who thinks differently to you. People who would defend their own beliefs by hurting others are extreme.

No it's an extreme view of any matter. I don't believe in re-incarnation but I also don't call those who believe in it as stupid or it being a ridiculous view. Being extreme is a state of mind. I see you have ignored the quotes by Dawkins which I posted, as you can see they are extreme . A perfect example of secular extremism.

 

[troodon]

Firstly it's important to make it clear you are a former Muslim who has left the religion and advocates secularism.

According to your last sentence extremism is when physical violence is carried out. lol

The reality is extremism is simply holding an extreme VIEW. Regardless who funded the statue, it does no harm to society, neither does wearing a Burkini on the beach or wearing a headscarf to school. To deny such harmless things is an extreme view point.

You deny the existence of a creator so why spend so much of your time esp since you believe this is your only life discussing it?

All people are born atheists. Kids do not know about God until parents tell them.

Calling religious people atheists mental cases s strange.

 

[KingKhanWC]

All people are born atheists. Kids do not know about God until parents tell them.

Calling religious people atheists mental cases s strange.

I suggest you learn the definition of an atheist. No child at birth can believe there is no God/Creator etc.

 

[troodon]

I suggest you learn the definition of an atheist. No child at birth can believe there is no God/Creator etc.

So God does not program babies to know him. Not even a 5 year old knows it until his parents tell him. What does that tell you? a grown up man is to tell and score the kids that a big Guy in sky is watching your moves.

The reason religious people get irritated about Atheists is because religious people cannot answer the questions that science asks. The age old proof.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So God does not program babies to know him. Not even a 5 year old knows it until his parents tell him. What does that tell you? a grown up man is to tell and score the kids that a big Guy in sky is watching your moves.

The reason religious people get irritated about Atheists is because religious people cannot answer the questions that science asks. The age old proof.

Firstly prove children are born atheists as you claimed and then we can discuss the religion angle.

 

[big_gamer007]

Hmm haven't heard much about secular extremism.. First time hearing about it in this thread probably a first world problem we got much more bigger problems in our part of the world to worry about such petty things..

 

[Nostalgic]

-At dinners, when everyone decides to pray you pretty much have to as well
-Same for stuff like Eid prayers etc

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

One of my best friends is a crypto-atheist, who hides his secret from his parents and his wife. One evening, at an iftar party, he had to join the Maghrib prayer with the rest of the invitees. This being a prayer at someone's house, the you-lead-no-please-you-lead-I-insist routine started, and he found himself shoved to the front, on the Imam's hotspot. He tried every excuse in the book, to no avail. I tried intervening, offering my services, but the rest of the guests were having none of it. In the end, he had to go through the motions. I spent the entire prayer biting my lip to stop myself from laughing.

The next day he had to write an email to everyone present, informing them he later realized he wasn't in a state of ablution (which was true), so they should make up the prayer.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Mostly, though definitely not always, minor stuff but it all adds up over the course of the day and someone averse to overt religiosity can easily get frustrated. One of the more mundane areas where it comes up is which hand you eat and drink water with. The former isn't an issue since I eat with my right hand but the latter used to come up a lot at my first job because I drink/smoke with my left hand and there was always someone at the water dispenser to remind me how bad drinking with your left hand/drinking while standing up/not doing so in exactly three gulps is. The food issue came up once at a Hardees outlet(their fries are half salt half potatoes) when I had a deep cut on my right index finger so I was eating fries with my left hand and got soundly chastised for it by my boss. The funniest incident by far though was when a particularly religious coworker accosted me outside a restroom cubicle to lecture on how sinful it is to urinate standing up. It works the same way with pretty much all the little things an average person does over the course of an average day though most don't notice it because by the time they grow up, they've been conditioned to do things the right way.

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

Religion also invariably finds its way into normal conversations because there's an Islamic way for everything and any discussion on anything includes the Islamic way of doing it. This can get bad if you're stuck with a particularly bad lot. Between late 2014 and late 2015, I had to work in a field office several hundred miles from home and one of my colleagues/roommates was a member of Jamat ud Dawa(charity/political wing of the organization responsible for Mumbai 2008). That one year passed in a cacophony of heated arguments(ironically enough, the guy was very fond of alcohol).

There's also the family issues e.g. my mother is very devout and the constant badgering to "get back on the right path" can get to you fast. On average, if I speak to her ten times a day about ten different things, ten times I'll be pled with to do the right thing. I still haven't talked to my father about it after four years because that could get very ugly in a hurry.

The most serious issue, however, is the threat of being outed because that's pretty much a certain death sentence, either at the hands of a mob or legally through a particularly creative application of the blasphemy laws(there are no specific laws for apostasy here).

Jesus thats absolutely shocking. Can only offer my sympathies and the unlikely wish that the situation improves soon.

Do some editing and this could be mistaken as a passage for 1984. Crazy stuff.

 

[KingKhanWC]

One of my best friends is a crypto-atheist, who hides his secret from his parents and his wife. One evening, at an iftar party, he had to join the Maghrib prayer with the rest of the invitees. This being a prayer at someone's house, the you-lead-no-please-you-lead-I-insist routine started, and he found himself shoved to the front, on the Imam's hotspot. He tried every excuse in the book, to no avail. I tried intervening, offering my services, but the rest of the guests were having none of it. In the end, he had to go through the motions. I spent the entire prayer biting my lip to stop myself from laughing.

The next day he had to write an email to everyone present, informing them he later realized he wasn't in a state of ablution (which was true), so they should make up the prayer.

Let me guess, his life was in danger if he simply refused?

 

[Nostalgic]

Let me guess, his life was in danger if he simply refused?

Refused to lead or refused to pray? He tried the former, it didn't work. The latter gets the tongues wagging. Whether his life would be in danger or not, it is a major inconvenience.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Seriously, how can any sane person read the experiences of people in this thread and NOT think Pakistan as a society needs change is beyond me.

It doesnt even help Islam, whats the benefit of forcing people to believe in something they want no part of?? Banning opposing thought?? It just harms the religion in the long term.

Not even about secularism at this point, stay Islamic publicly but at the very least protect your own citizens.

 

[Indiafan]

We know many new age militant atheists such as Dawkins and Sam Harris who create bigotry towards people who follow religions, often using degrading abuse language.

We also have France leading the way in state secular extremism. In it's latest move...

So lets see. Right from history, religious people have burned people, hanged people, tortured people in the name of religion. Religious riots happen still all over the world. People are still killed in the name of religion (apostasy, etc). Religious laws like stoning for adultery, etc is very, very common. But degrading abusive language is somehow your biggest complaint here?

What is most strange is people who don't believe in a God spend more time discussing God than those who believe. Do they have mental issues or is this just another form of extremism?

How on earth is this strange when religion still controls most of the world, still stops the progress of science in some places (see the evolution thread) politicians use religion to control people and religion affects each and every person in some way? So if something controls your life every single day, you wont talk about it?

In the end you are being a hypocrite like so many religious people. You have no problem with religious people preaching in every single corner of the world, you have no problem with people pushing their religious view on others all the time (their country, their rules), you have no problem when families boycott and ostracize people who are not religious, you have no problem when people who disbelieve are called apostoles and worshippers os Satan. You have no problem when people are called name for not eating hala (just see the thread)

You have absolutely no problem when religion is used every single day to harass people, force people, control people, kill people, misguide people, control school books, every single day in every single country of this world. But you have some problems with abuse. I dunno whether to laugh at you or shake my head

 

[troodon]

Firstly prove children are born atheists as you claimed and then we can discuss the religion angle.

Have you seen infants bow down to Idols or do Namaz or chant any hymns or Quran?

The only thing Infants know is cry or smile (no matter what the reason is). That cry is a call to his/her mom. Not to the God of Quran or Christianity or Hinduism.

 

[Suleiman]

Strange, I know many people who go to Pakistan from the UK openly do not fast, drink alchohol, go out with girls, don't pray etc nothing is ever said to them.

Do you think your family are extremists for shoving it down your throat?

Agree with the first part, same case in US. And the parents of those people are pretty liberal as well..

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Secular Extremism ≠ Religious Extremism

 

[Buffet]

Taxpayers money shouldn't be used by city to put any statue in public land. That's pretty much a basic requirement for being a secular society. Not sure where OP is seeing extreme here?

 

[Slog]

Why is it hard to simply decline the offer?

again showing your naivety here

 

[Slog]

Mostly, though definitely not always, minor stuff but it all adds up over the course of the day and someone averse to overt religiosity can easily get frustrated. One of the more mundane areas where it comes up is which hand you eat and drink water with. The former isn't an issue since I eat with my right hand but the latter used to come up a lot at my first job because I drink/smoke with my left hand and there was always someone at the water dispenser to remind me how bad drinking with your left hand/drinking while standing up/not doing so in exactly three gulps is. The food issue came up once at a Hardees outlet(their fries are half salt half potatoes) when I had a deep cut on my right index finger so I was eating fries with my left hand and got soundly chastised for it by my boss. The funniest incident by far though was when a particularly religious coworker accosted me outside a restroom cubicle to lecture on how sinful it is to urinate standing up. It works the same way with pretty much all the little things an average person does over the course of an average day though most don't notice it because by the time they grow up, they've been conditioned to do things the right way.

There are more serious issues like prayer/fast shaming, which picks up fever pitch on Fridays if you have a reputation for missing Friday prayers. During Ramzan, this happened every day, not just Fridays, to the point where our head of department once ordered me to pray with the rest of the office. The harrasment can get bad enough that I've prayed in mosques several times since my "conversion".

Religion also invariably finds its way into normal conversations because there's an Islamic way for everything and any discussion on anything includes the Islamic way of doing it. This can get bad if you're stuck with a particularly bad lot. Between late 2014 and late 2015, I had to work in a field office several hundred miles from home and one of my colleagues/roommates was a member of Jamat ud Dawa(charity/political wing of the organization responsible for Mumbai 2008). That one year passed in a cacophony of heated arguments(ironically enough, the guy was very fond of alcohol).

There's also the family issues e.g. my mother is very devout and the constant badgering to "get back on the right path" can get to you fast. On average, if I speak to her ten times a day about ten different things, ten times I'll be pled with to do the right thing. I still haven't talked to my father about it after four years because that could get very ugly in a hurry.

The most serious issue, however, is the threat of being outed because that's pretty much a certain death sentence, either at the hands of a mob or legally through a particularly creative application of the blasphemy laws(there are no specific laws for apostasy here).

honestly it seems things are much worse outside karachi

in karachi if youre working for a big bank or a multinational almost no one will bother you like this at work atleast (outside of Ramzan)

ofcourse its a different story in family as extended members of my family are big on tableeghi jamat

 

[Slog]

So what? There are three people on this thread alone who have lived in Pakistan their entire lives who are contradicting you but off course you, the Brit who has spent maybe a year or two tops in Pakistan spread out over several decades, knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who went to Pakistan this one time and wasn't harassed by the religious police that is the Pakistani public which is off course conclusive evidence that nothing of the sort ever happens in Pakistan.


No but they are sickeningly religious. They don't agree with executing blasphemers/apostates, declaring people kafir based on sectarian differences, state enforcing religious edicts through legislation, marrying off minors, boycotting banks or expecting others to live up to their religious standards. Those are some of the things that make you an extremist. Pestering your atheist son to become Muslim again does not.

so they are 99% of the upper middle class?

 

[Robert]

No it's an extreme view of any matter. I don't believe in re-incarnation but I also don't call those who believe in it as stupid or it being a ridiculous view. Being extreme is a state of mind. I see you have ignored the quotes by Dawkins which I posted, as you can see they are extreme . A perfect example of secular extremism.

Not at all. An example of secular extremism was the Soviet law on religion - a complete ban enforced by imprisonment. All Dawkins had done is call religious people deluded. You have similarly ridiculed my beliefs many times, so by your own definition you are extremist.

 

[JaDed]

Amazing thread glad to see majority of the posters realizing the issue and also the difference between extremes.

 

[DW44]

honestly it seems things are much worse outside karachi

in karachi if youre working for a big bank or a multinational almost no one will bother you like this at work atleast (outside of Ramzan)

ofcourse its a different story in family as extended members of my family are big on tableeghi jamat

That's good to know because there's a good chance I might have to relocate there soon and a respite from the in your face religiosity of Punjab, KPK and Islamabad would be very welcome.

so they are 99% of the upper middle class?

Try ~50%(in Islamabad) or less(Punjab/KPK).

 

[Robert]

expect denial

I think [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] has half a point regarding the burkini ban in France, which is coerced by the state, and therefore authoritarian if not outright extremist.

Free speech is not extremism as long as only ideas are challenged, which is what Prof Dawkins does. Where free speech imperils people, such as Mr Choudary's exhortations for Muslims to join ISIL, that is extremism and must be met with the state sanction of imprisonment.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What a shame they are taking down the statue of Mary in France to uphold their extremist laws against religion. Places like France and Italy were the last bastions of the great Christian culture, the statue should be part of their heritage. These people are the secular version of the Taliban - instead of destroying the Bamiyan buddhas they are dismantling the history of France.

 

[endymion248]

What a shame they are taking down the statue of Mary in France to uphold their extremist laws against religion. Places like France and Italy were the last bastions of the great Christian culture, the statue should be part of their heritage. These people are the secular version of the Taliban - instead of destroying the Bamiyan buddhas they are dismantling the history of France.

The statue was built this year

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The statue was built this year

This year is still part of history clever clogs.

 

[Robert]

The statue was built this year

Straight back over his head for six! )

 

[Major]

Strange, I know many people who go to Pakistan from the UK openly do not fast, drink alchohol, go out with girls, don't pray etc nothing is ever said to them.

Do you think your family are extremists for shoving it down your throat?

Bro thats the thing, upper class and lower class difference exist here. Both have different opinions.

The upper class knows how to mind its business, but the lower class will always be up on you.

I go to a cricket club, and this what happens with me in a normal praying routine.

I go to take a pis before i do my wudu, some guy will say to me "hey hey hey what are you doing, you are doing that while facing in the direction of Makkah, change your direction" I don't listen to their crap, thus i continue and then another person would say to me"Why are you pissing while standing up, you should take a pis while you are sitting, never pis while standing up its wrong" I still don't care to what they say and continue. THen while doing wudu minding my own beeswax, "YOU MISSED A SPOT. Look its dry, it means you wudu has not been done right, do it properly" Then after that i proceed to pray, "you should fold your ankles up".

Whats funny is that each and every time when someone points a fault at you, 2 or 3 guys standing near by will always be in agreement with each other to show how religious they are.

WHen it comes to religion, everyone is involved in each others matters

 

[Pakpak]

Bro thats the thing, upper class and lower class difference exist here. Both have different opinions.

The upper class knows how to mind its business, but the lower class will always be up on you.

I go to a cricket club, and this what happens with me in a normal praying routine.

I go to take a pis before i do my wudu, some guy will say to me "hey hey hey what are you doing, you are doing that while facing in the direction of Makkah, change your direction" I don't listen to their crap, thus i continue and then another person would say to me"Why are you pissing while standing up, you should take a pis while you are sitting, never pis while standing up its wrong" I still don't care to what they say and continue. THen while doing wudu minding my own beeswax, "YOU MISSED A SPOT. Look its dry, it means you wudu has not been done right, do it properly" Then after that i proceed to pray, "you should fold your ankles up".

Whats funny is that each and every time when someone points a fault at you, 2 or 3 guys standing near by will always be in agreement with each other to show how religious they are.

WHen it comes to religion, everyone is involved in each others matters

Wow, the day has come when I am agreeing with Major's post!

And yes you're right. If religious people never got involved in peoples' business then the spread of religion would never have been that widespread.

 

[yasir]

We know many new age militant atheists such as Dawkins and Sam Harris who create bigotry towards people who follow religions, often using degrading abuse language.

We also have France leading the way in state secular extremism. In it's latest move...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38196238

What is most strange is people who don't believe in a God spend more time discussing God than those who believe. Do they have mental issues or is this just another form of extremism?

Problem Atheists(BTW I am an Atheist, if you have not noticed) have with religion, that's it not allowed to be challenged in many societies like any other political ideology. Why I should be respecting any superstition? - Why we cannot ridicule superstitious ideas?? - Ridicule is important intellectual tool, throughout Human History people have used to filter bad content from good. Your own religious founder was ridiculing left and right pagan religion. He was challenging them openly and condescending them, he even publicly demolish their Gods. If we do that to his ideology, why that is wrong??

We would have care less about Islam or Christianity if they were irrelevant to policy, political and social matters of society. Atheist don't go after Pagans or every superstitious idea for the sack of it, what we like to go after that matters us and future of society. Why we should accept and respect ideas which has no evidence behind them??

 

[Hamza_]

Problem Atheists(BTW I am an Atheist, if you have not noticed) have with religion, that's it not allowed to be challenged in many societies like any other political ideology. Why I should be respecting any superstition? - Why we cannot ridicule superstitious ideas?? - Ridicule is important intellectual tool, throughout Human History people have used to filter bad content from good. Your own religious founder was ridiculing left and right pagan religion. He was challenging them openly and condescending them, he even publicly demolish their Gods. If we do that to his ideology, why that is wrong??

We would have care less about Islam or Christianity if they were irrelevant to policy, political and social matters of society. Atheist don't go after Pagans or every superstitious idea for the sack of it, what we like to go after that matters us and future of society. Why we should accept and respect ideas which has no evidence behind them??

Do you have any evidence about how long you will live?? But you certainly do respect the idea of living long and accept a judgement about future age.

 

[Hamza_]

Anyways having said that. Religious extremists are worse and really put obstacles over human growth

 

[yasir]

Do you have any evidence about how long you will live?? But you certainly do respect the idea of living long and accept a judgement about future age.

I dont get the relevance of this question with belief in God or religion.

We have ample empirical evidence of how long we can live, we are constantly improving life expectancy. Obviously if you have an accident all bets are off. We are also improving upon this question all the time, by understanding our own anatomy deeply, whole discipline of medical Science and Biology deals with that. Human population has increased exponentially in last few centuries not because God is happy, rather we controlled diseases, improving hygiene, control micro organism diseases. This does not occur to us by praying to God or ratification of holly books but by constantly improving our knowledge by evidence and ignoring superstition and Faith...

 

[hamid.s]

this example pales in comparison with religious extremism.

I am a practicing muslim and even I cringe at holier than thou attitude of fellow muslims. I think many of us spend more time on rituals of the religion (i.e. how to sit during salah, where to put hands) than on basic human rights and respects for others.

This superiority stems from human nature. I don't think this is particularly an affect of religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) etc.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

this example pales in comparison with religious extremism.

I am a practicing muslim and even I cringe at holier than thou attitude of fellow muslims. I think many of us spend more time on rituals of the religion (i.e. how to sit during salah, where to put hands) than on basic human rights and respects for others.

This superiority stems from human nature. I don't think this is particularly an affect of religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) etc.

That's not relevant to the west though, if you live in France or Britain, we are not really concerned whether Islamic nations or their peoples want to be holier than each other or how they sit in salah, they do all that stuff in the mosques over here as well, no one really cares.

What is a concern though is that secular extremists are riding roughshod over the feelings and culture of the indigenous population in their drive against harmless Christian sculptures and traditions. One has to ask, where will this end? Will they be banning Christmas presents and Santa Claus next?

 

[yasir]

That's not relevant to the west though, if you live in France or Britain, we are not really concerned whether Islamic nations or their peoples want to be holier than each other or how they sit in salah, they do all that stuff in the mosques over here as well, no one really cares.

What is a concern though is that secular extremists are riding roughshod over the feelings and culture of the indigenous population in their drive against harmless Christian sculptures and traditions. One has to ask, where will this end? Will they be banning Christmas presents and Santa Claus next?

This is not true, Secular and Atheists are far more open to and work for protection of rights of minorities than religion. They are against discrimination against race, color, gender, sexual orientation than any other religious group. Even here in America Liberals raise voice about Muslims right lot more than right wing conservatives. Discrimination against minorities happen lot more in Bible belt than in Costal Liberal America. Cosmopolitan culture (world over) was born out of liberals and secular pockets, not from conservative and religious culture.

Atheists and Seculars have serious issues with giving state protection of religion and religious institution. Why give them free tax money that can be spend on education and other social causes?? - Why force religion on kids using public money, this is counter to education? - Religious education is indoctrination, not education, its sort of opposite, society should not be subsidizing it.

Atheists argument is similar to what people have for Science base medicine Vs Homeopathy or Hakeen, we cannot give them equal endorsement, one is evidence base Science other is Hoaks/Scam. We cannot choose religious text over Scientific facts when it comes to educating kids and policy matters. If religion can come up with reason and evidence, they are more than welcome... Illiterate can argue Science education as form of discrimination against Faith and Superstition, well evidence base knowledge is only way to maintain reliable information, you have to filter content based on something, so far evidence is best filter.

As far as Santa is concerned, kids even the Catholics, grow out of it after 5/6 years. In this day and age, it can only go so far.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is not true, Secular and Atheists are far more open to and work for protection of rights of minorities than religion. They are against discrimination against race, color, gender, sexual orientation than any other religious group. Even here in America Liberals raise voice about Muslims right lot more than right wing conservatives. Discrimination against minorities happen lot more in Bible belt than in Costal Liberal America. Cosmopolitan culture (world over) was born out of liberals and secular pockets, not from conservative and religious culture.

Atheists and Seculars have serious issues with giving state protection of religion and religious institution. Why give them free tax money that can be spend on education and other social causes?? - Why force religion on kids using public money, this is counter to education? - Religious education is indoctrination, not education, its sort of opposite, society should not be subsidizing it.

Atheists argument is similar to what people have for Science base medicine Vs Homeopathy or Hakeen, we cannot give them equal endorsement, one is evidence base Science other is Hoaks/Scam. We cannot choose religious text over Scientific facts when it comes to educating kids and policy matters. If religion can come up with reason and evidence, they are more than welcome... Illiterate can argue Science education as form of discrimination against Faith and Superstition, well evidence base knowledge is only way to maintain reliable information, you have to filter content based on something, so far evidence is best filter.

As far as Santa is concerned, kids even the Catholics, grow out of it after 5/6 years. In this day and age, it can only go so far.

Nice essay but not really on point. This is not appropriate thread for what-about-ism, we are talking about France removing many of it's own religious icons which have been synonymous with it's culture down the centuries. We can't look at France or the rest of Europe through the lens of what Saudis or Iranians do. Europe has it's own culture and it has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater just to prove it's secular credentials. I am an advocate of secular society myself but my concern here is that we are now getting to the stage where even non-threatening religious symbols are being removed as in the case of the OP. This seems more in line with what happened in the USSR and China rather than the free democracies of the west. We as Europeans should set our own standards and worry less about what others are doing by theirs.

 

[hamid.s]

That's not relevant to the west though, if you live in France or Britain, we are not really concerned whether Islamic nations or their peoples want to be holier than each other or how they sit in salah, they do all that stuff in the mosques over here as well, no one really cares.

What is a concern though is that secular extremists are riding roughshod over the feelings and culture of the indigenous population in their drive against harmless Christian sculptures and traditions. One has to ask, where will this end? Will they be banning Christmas presents and Santa Claus next?

it is a case of over-compensation. to prove their extreme secularist stance to the rest of the world, france is banning these symbols and monuments. even though one can argue that Christianity has been in France for more than 1500 years and at this point it is more than just a religion for them. It is a thousand plus year culture and heritage for them.

 

[DW44]

it is a case of over-compensation. to prove their extreme secularist stance to the rest of the world, france is banning these symbols and monuments. even though one can argue that Christianity has been in France for more than 1500 years and at this point it is more than just a religion for them. It is a thousand plus year culture and heritage for them.

Lol, the modern French state is built on a rejection of religious influence in the public sphere. Read up on the French revolution and its significance to the modern French state. The French have been opposed to religion's involvement in governance since the late 1700s.

 

[Mamoon]

Secular extremism is a paradoxical term; you cannot be a secular and an extremist simultaneously. However, bigotry towards religious groups is a reality and it is the natural response to religious extremism.

The main problem with religious extremism - and it has been highlighted already - is the practice of enforcing your beliefs on others. Unfortunately in this era, it has become common practice among certain groups of Muslims.

A lot of what has been said in this this thread is true for a country like Pakistan, but I think some people are flirting with over-exaggeration and sensationalism to get their points across. Having lived in Peshawar for 25 years, I believe that I'm in a good position to comment on the ordeals of the closet atheists or even the non-practicing Muslims.

Firstly, I would classify myself as a moderately-practicing Muslim. I pray but not five times a day every day, I don't sport a beard (I despise them in fact) and I also abhor the right-wing and the Mullah ideology. However, I have never touched alcohol in my whole life and never will, I mistakenly had pork once in the UK and I regret it a lot.

Personally, I can relate with some of the issues that have been highlighted so far. I'm a pure lefty and I do all the things with my left hand that a right-handed person does with his right hand, which also means that I do with my right hand what a right-handed person does with his left hand.

I eat with my left hand because I see absolutely no justification and reasoning in the argument that we are not supposed to eat with our left, or the reasoning that 'Iblees will dine with me if I eat with my left hand'. When I was a baby, few relatives of mine thought it would be necessary to force me to adopt my right hand as my dominant one, but thankfully my father had none of it because he is also a lefty like me, and eats with his left like I do.

Initially when I used to eat with my left hand in public, my friends and relatives etc. would tell me that it is wrong to do so and bla bla, but once they realized that I am adamant, they have stopped nagging. I have never had any stranger come up to me and remind how I'm sinning by eating with my left.

Similarly, no one has stopped me from urinating while standing, because it is common practice in schools, colleges and workplaces. I live in a neighborhood which is full of tableeghis, and I have never been nagged to the point of annoyance that I should pray 5 times in the Mosque. For many years, I was a Jummah Khan (common term for people who pray the Friday prayer only) but I have not had people knocking on my door to tell me that what I need to pray 5 times a day.

However, if you run into extremists every now and then, they will rub you the wrong way. As I said, there are plenty of tableeghis in my locality and when they are on their weekly gasht (every Wednesday), they do knock on our gates and request us to come and meet them.

Similarly, if you are invited to a wedding with a predominantly right-wing presence, you will probably have a mullah question your decision to eat with your left hand.

Having said that, the impression some people here are giving is that life in Pakistan is hell if you are not a Mullah or an extremist, or at least that is the impression I'm getting from the comments here.

As I said, I'm a moderately-practicing Muslim. I know people who have no religious inclinations and also drink alcohol etc., and they haven't been lynched by mobs threatened by extremists. My father was a bureaucrat and I've grown up in a social class where drinking is very common. I don't know of a single person who has been killed or even threatened because they are not religious.

Obviously it is down to personal experience, but I'm extremely surprised by some of the comments here. As long as you don't run into the Mullahs, the common man is not going to make your life miserable and you can get on with what you do without any problem.

 

[Hamza_]

Secular extremism is a paradoxical term; you cannot be a secular and an extremist simultaneously. However, bigotry towards religious groups is a reality and it is the natural response to religious extremism.

The main problem with religious extremism - and it has been highlighted already - is the practice of enforcing your beliefs on others. Unfortunately in this era, it has become common practice among certain groups of Muslims.

A lot of what has been said in this this thread is true for a country like Pakistan, but I think some people are flirting with over-exaggeration and sensationalism to get their points across. Having lived in Peshawar for 25 years, I believe that I'm in a good position to comment on the ordeals of the closet atheists or even the non-practicing Muslims.

Firstly, I would classify myself as a moderately-practicing Muslim. I pray but not five times a day every day, I don't sport a beard (I despise them in fact) and I also abhor the right-wing and the Mullah ideology. However, I have never touched alcohol in my whole life and never will, I mistakenly had pork once in the UK and I regret it a lot.

Personally, I can relate with some of the issues that have been highlighted so far. I'm a pure lefty and I do all the things with my left hand that a right-handed person does with his right hand, which also means that I do with my right hand what a right-handed person does with his left hand.

I eat with my left hand because I see absolutely no justification and reasoning in the argument that we are not supposed to eat with our left, or the reasoning that 'Iblees will dine with me if I eat with my left hand'. When I was a baby, few relatives of mine thought it would be necessary to force me to adopt my right hand as my dominant one, but thankfully my father had none of it because he is also a lefty like me, and eats with his left like I do.

Initially when I used to eat with my left hand in public, my friends and relatives etc. would tell me that it is wrong to do so and bla bla, but once they realized that I am adamant, they have stopped nagging. I have never had any stranger come up to me and remind how I'm sinning by eating with my left.

Similarly, no one has stopped me from urinating while standing, because it is common practice in schools, colleges and workplaces. I live in a neighborhood which is full of tableeghis, and I have never been nagged to the point of annoyance that I should pray 5 times in the Mosque. For many years, I was a Jummah Khan (common term for people who pray the Friday prayer only) but I have not had people knocking on my door to tell me that what I need to pray 5 times a day.

However, if you run into extremists every now and then, they will rub you the wrong way. As I said, there are plenty of tableeghis in my locality and when they are on their weekly gasht (every Wednesday), they do knock on our gates and request us to come and meet them.

Similarly, if you are invited to a wedding with a predominantly right-wing presence, you will probably have a mullah question your decision to eat with your left hand.

Having said that, the impression some people here are giving is that life in Pakistan is hell if you are not a Mullah or an extremist, or at least that is the impression I'm getting from the comments here.

As I said, I'm a moderately-practicing Muslim. I know people who have no religious inclinations and also drink alcohol etc., and they haven't been lynched by mobs threatened by extremists. My father was a bureaucrat and I've grown up in a social class where drinking is very common. I don't know of a single person who has been killed or even threatened because they are not religious.

Obviously it is down to personal experience, but I'm extremely surprised by some of the comments here. As long as you don't run into the Mullahs, the common man is not going to make your life miserable and you can get on with what you do without any problem.

Maybe you have been in another group of social individuals where even drinking is common, Hence no much emphasis upon religious matters. In smaller cities and backward areas who are under developed or developing, The religious extremists are there even in common people.

 

[Mamoon]

Maybe you have been in another group of social individuals where even drinking is common, Hence no much emphasis upon religious matters. In smaller cities and backward areas who are under developed or developing, The religious extremists are there even in common people.

Peshawar is a small and backward city, or at least was, and I personally don't socialize with people who drink and are extremely liberal in their views. I have friends from all kinds of social backgrounds and as I said, you will be fine as long as you don't run into Mullahs very often, and that is something I avoid.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I eat with my left hand because I see absolutely no justification and reasoning in the argument that we are not supposed to eat with our left, or the reasoning that 'Iblees will dine with me if I eat with my left hand'. When I was a baby, few relatives of mine thought it would be necessary to force me to adopt my right hand as my dominant one, but thankfully my father had none of it because he is also a lefty like me, and eats with his left like I do.


Obviously it is down to personal experience, but I'm extremely surprised by some of the comments here. As long as you don't run into the Mullahs, the common man is not going to make your life miserable and you can get on with what you do without any problem.

For once I agree with 100% of your post. In Pakistan, the (majority of) common man does not interfere with your habits and I'm pretty sure that he NEVER forces you to change your habits.

As far as your use of left-hand is concerned, it is perfectly fine to use it if you have a habit but it is frowned upon in Muslim communities because it is said that Satan uses his left hand for everything therefore, it is recommended by Muslim communities to not replicate any of Satan's habits. BUT IT IS NOT A SIN. Only religious extremists would call it a sin. Using left hand is "makruh"/undesirable in Islam and nothing more than that.

I hope your post clears this impression of "Pakistan=Hell for Atheists"

 

[Mamoon]

For once I agree with 100% of your post. In Pakistan, the (majority of) common man does not interfere with your habits and I'm pretty sure that he NEVER forces you to change your habits.

As far as your use of left-hand is concerned, it is perfectly fine to use it if you have a habit but it is frowned upon in Muslim communities because it is said that Satan uses his left hand for everything therefore, it is recommended by Muslim communities to not replicate any of Satan's habits. BUT IT IS NOT A SIN. Only religious extremists would call it a sin. Using left hand is "makruh"/undesirable in Islam and nothing more than that.

I hope your post clears this impression of "Pakistan=Hell for Atheists"

I hope so, some people are making Pakistan look worse than KSA.

As far the explanation for eating with left hand is concerned, I know about the Iblees logic and I have mentioned it already, and I think it is rubbish. My personal view on this matter is that perhaps your right hand is supposed to be your dominant hand, not necessarily the 'right' hand. It makes sense why one should eat with his dominant hand.

I have pondered over the left hand issue a lot and the Iblees explanation is the most ridiculous and abject reasoning the Mullahs come up with, which says a lot because irrational reasoning is their national sport.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[/b]

I hope so, some people are making Pakistan look worse than KSA.

As far the explanation for eating with left hand is concerned, I know about the Iblees logic and I have mentioned it already, and I think it is rubbish. My personal view on this matter is that perhaps your right hand is supposed to be your dominant hand, not necessarily the 'right' hand. It makes sense why one should eat with his dominant hand.

I have pondered over the left hand issue a lot and the Iblees explanation is the most ridiculous and abject reasoning the Mullahs come up with, which says a lot because irrational reasoning is their national sport.

No one comes close in terms of Mullah influence here. And I'm talking about those pathetic "huge beard, empty skull" types.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

And btw guys I'm a fully practicing Muslim and wish to remain that way. Peace

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Yes Pakistan is Hell for Aethiests.

It's a fact. Call me Liar or whatever I won't mind.

 

[Hamza_]

[/b]

I hope so, some people are making Pakistan look worse than KSA.

As far the explanation for eating with left hand is concerned, I know about the Iblees logic and I have mentioned it already, and I think it is rubbish. My personal view on this matter is that perhaps your right hand is supposed to be your dominant hand, not necessarily the 'right' hand. It makes sense why one should eat with his dominant hand.

I have pondered over the left hand issue a lot and the Iblees explanation is the most ridiculous and abject reasoning the Mullahs come up with, which says a lot because irrational reasoning is their national sport.

Pakistan is worse.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes Pakistan is Hell for Aethiests.

It's a fact. Call me Liar or whatever I won't mind.

There are plenty of atheists in Pakistan, many of them are very successful writers and journalists and they write very anti-mullah pieces which are published nationally. True they might not be able to openly declare it, but they get their point across very effectively. Not ideal from an activist atheist point of view I agree, but Hell? For an avowedly Islamic republic it's pretty easy going I would say. So you are a liar. Sorry but that's a fact.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan is worse.

In what way is Pakistan worse? Do you mean from an Islamic point of view or an atheist? The former I can believe, the latter no chance.

 

[yasir]

Nice essay but not really on point. This is not appropriate thread for what-about-ism, we are talking about France removing many of it's own religious icons which have been synonymous with it's culture down the centuries. We can't look at France or the rest of Europe through the lens of what Saudis or Iranians do. Europe has it's own culture and it has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater just to prove it's secular credentials. I am an advocate of secular society myself but my concern here is that we are now getting to the stage where even non-threatening religious symbols are being removed as in the case of the OP. This seems more in line with what happened in the USSR and China rather than the free democracies of the west. We as Europeans should set our own standards and worry less about what others are doing by theirs.

You have just brushed off all Muslim baggage (history, culture, Good, Bad and Uglu) and have now become a European

As far as past monuments, literature and Art (as long as its not promoting hate and racism), I am all for keeping it. We don't need to wipe out all history of religion, although your own religious founder (Mohammad) did exactly opposite, we get rid of all symbols and Idols of past religions deliberately and forcefully. Where ever Muslims went they did the same, tried to get rid of Older religious Art and History. Since you are European now, we don't need to bring Muslim History now.

But building new ones on public land, using public funding is something I would resist too. Some of these matters are local community issues where as others are more broader, like raising Confederate Flag or Flags with Swastika symbols is not about preserving history, its about spreading hate and racism.

 

[yasir]

There are plenty of atheists in Pakistan, many of them are very successful writers and journalists and they write very anti-mullah pieces which are published nationally. True they might not be able to openly declare it, but they get their point across very effectively. Not ideal from an activist atheist point of view I agree, but Hell? For an avowedly Islamic republic it's pretty easy going I would say. So you are a liar. Sorry but that's a fact.

I know Atheists in Pakistan, but none of them (that I know) are publicly Atheists and still live in that Country, because that is not acceptable in the society. Can you name any?? - If you cannot publicly declare than what's the point