Shamima Begum loses citizenship removal appeal bid [Post Updated #689]

[Robert]

The UK government has not addressed the allegations, it is hiding information. They are saying its policy of not commenting on operational intelligence or security matters. If you truly believe the UK Intel are so stupid or imcompentant young children are being sent to ISIS and they are clueless, it shows your bias is on another level. Even if there was evidence you'd still deny it, as you have with 911 evidence which has proven WT7 was a taken down.

The Western foreign policies are more than evil, this is just a fact.

She was a CHILD when trafficked, A CHILD CANNOT CONSENT . You dont need to a be genius to work this out.

MI5 and MI6 are there to gather information. They are not the police, who are there to stop crime. So we won’t know if they knew anything about Begum or not, for thirty years until their knowledge or lack thereof is declassified.

Not believing that for which there is no evidence is not bias, it is reason. There is no evidence for unicorns so I don’t believe in unicorns. There is no evidence that MI5/6 knew about Begum before she left, or even after whatever Rasheed told Canadian intelligence, so I don’t believe that either.

 

[Robert]

You dont get it.

Under 16 means CHILD. Children CANNOT CONSENT.

What is so hard for you to understand ? Or do you feel kids can consent? If so write to the MP to change UK laws.

You’re not comparing like with like. Begum wasn’t being raped by groomers, at least until she got to ISIL when at age 15 she was married to the Kosovan. That was coercion. But she left UK of her own free will and entered Turkiye, passing through passport control in both countries.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You’re not comparing like with like. Begum wasn’t being raped by groomers, at least until she got to ISIL when at age 15 she was married to the Kosovan. That was coercion. But she left UK of her own free will and entered Turkiye, passing through passport control in both countries.

A Child cannot leave on her own free will if an adult male too her, there is no consent when it comes to a child.

Her being married again wasnt consent, any intimate relations was rape.

The UK law is very clear when it comes to children of 15, they cannot consent to trafficking or consent to marriage.

 

[MenInG]

Shamima Begum is set to find out if she has won her appeal against being stripped of her British citizenship next week.

Ms Begum was 15 when she travelled from Bethnal Green, east London, through Turkey and into territory controlled by so-called Islamic State (IS) with two other schoolgirls in 2015.

Her British citizenship was revoked on national security grounds shortly after she was found, nine months pregnant, in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019.

She has been locked in a legal battle with the Government ever since in an attempt to get her citizenship restored.

Independent

 

[Robert]

Shamima Begum is set to find out if she has won her appeal against being stripped of her British citizenship next week.

Ms Begum was 15 when she travelled from Bethnal Green, east London, through Turkey and into territory controlled by so-called Islamic State (IS) with two other schoolgirls in 2015.

Her British citizenship was revoked on national security grounds shortly after she was found, nine months pregnant, in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019.

She has been locked in a legal battle with the Government ever since in an attempt to get her citizenship restored.

Independent

I hope her citizenship is restored, but I find it unlikely as this awful government is happy to throw red meat to white racists.

 

[Robert]

A Child cannot leave on her own free will if an adult male too her, there is no consent when it comes to a child.

Her being married again wasnt consent, any intimate relations was rape.

The UK law is very clear when it comes to children of 15, they cannot consent to trafficking or consent to marriage.

And yet she crossed passport control at two national boundaries without an adult. So I am not sure of your point.

The Syrian age of consent is 15. You could argue that she was coerced into marriage to get out of that madrasa (which sounds more like a prison camp for women and children as described in the podcast).

I am not trying to argue for the sake of it, but to clarify that the narratives we have both been fed do not jive with Begum’s own testimony.

 

[Zaz]

She got to Turkiye under her own power before meeting Rasheed. That was a choice. It’s not as though he came to Bethnal Green to kidnap her.

Shouldnt border control be stopping a 15 yr old minor travelling flying abroad without a legal guardian with her?

 

[Zaz]

She got to Turkiye under her own power before meeting Rasheed. That was a choice. It’s not as though he came to Bethnal Green to kidnap her.

Robert She was a 15 yr old child Whether she travelled on her own or not shes no culpable She was a child per uk law

Your clever than that No idea why you keep saying she went of her accord ot she had a choice You know that a child isnt responsible

She was a child and not responsible for her actions Someone should have intervened She was let down by several adults at airport etc before she got to syria

 

[Robert]

Shouldnt border control be stopping a 15 yr old minor travelling flying abroad without a legal guardian with her?

You’d imagine they would be stopped and questioned, but Begum says she wasn’t at either end. Perplexing.

 

[Robert]

Robert She was a 15 yr old child Whether she travelled on her own or not shes no culpable She was a child per uk law

Your clever than that No idea why you keep saying she went of her accord ot she had a choice You know that a child isnt responsible

She was a child and not responsible for her actions Someone should have intervened She was let down by several adults at airport etc before she got to syria

I don’t think that is true in law. Even ten-year-olds can be held as responsible for their actions and taken to court, and sent to detention in a secure unit.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And yet she crossed passport control at two national boundaries without an adult. So I am not sure of your point.

The Syrian age of consent is 15. You could argue that she was coerced into marriage to get out of that madrasa (which sounds more like a prison camp for women and children as described in the podcast).

I am not trying to argue for the sake of it, but to clarify that the narratives we have both been fed do not jive with Begum’s own testimony.

You've lost it Robert. You are suggesting the law of the country where a child was trafficked to should supersede the law of the country where the trafficking took place from.

I know you love to defend all things British but this is getting embarrassing now.

A Child was trafficked and groomed by Canadian spy , while UK covered it up. Its disgusting and shameful and even worse to become an apologist for this.

 

[Robert]

You've lost it Robert. You are suggesting the law of the country where a child was trafficked to should supersede the law of the country where the trafficking took place from.

I did no such thing. you made that up in your head and attributed it to me.

The way I see it three alleged crimes were committed in three countries:

1.a British citizen convinced Begum to travel to Turkiye with a view to joining ISIl.

2. ISIL operatives, one of whom was a double agent trafficked her across Turkiye.

3. ISIL coerced her into marriage inside Syria.

I know you love to defend all things British but this is getting embarrassing now.

All I am doing it sticking to known facts, rather than the opinion-as-fact which you go in for.

A Child was trafficked and groomed by Canadian spy , while UK covered it up. It’s disgusting and shameful and even worse to become an apologist for this.

No evidence that she was groomed by Rasheed, a Syrian not a Canadian. No evidence that MI6 knew about it. You are making more stuff up in your head.

What have I apologised for? I shout for Begum’s rights to be upheld again and again. I merely burn away your false equivalences and look at the facts.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

MI5 and MI6 are there to gather information. They are not the police, who are there to stop crime. So we won’t know if they knew anything about Begum or not, for thirty years until their knowledge or lack thereof is declassified.

Not believing that for which there is no evidence is not bias, it is reason. There is no evidence for unicorns so I don’t believe in unicorns. There is no evidence that MI5/6 knew about Begum before she left, or even after whatever Rasheed told Canadian intelligence, so I don’t believe that either.

It's quite incredible that she's become such a topic of news considering then. Why should we Brits even care about one girl who went to Syria and got bombed to buggery, lost some children and now wants to come back?

 

[Robert]

It's quite incredible that she's become such a topic of news considering then. Why should we Brits even care about one girl who went to Syria and got bombed to buggery, lost some children and now wants to come back?

Because she is used by this awful government as a culture war signifier. If we focus on Begum, we will not notice that the NHS is on its asre, the price of food and fuel has shot up, and our human rights are being taken away.

 

[Technics 1210]

Finally, the liberals are beginning to understand how MSM works. In the same way the MSM reported on a former RAF pilot turned Russian informant.

Spying has always been a dodgy business, and for anyone to think secret services are squeaky clean deserves humiliation for their naivety.

 

[Wristy_Shuffler]

No, obviously MI6 are extremely clever. But not all information is shared between agencies.

Now it is your turn to read me carefully. This Syrian who may now be Canadian didn't groom Begum. He met her in Turkiye and drove her to the Syrian border. In this regard he was working for ISIL. But he was also working for Canadian intelligence by naming his ISIL contacts.

Begum was talked into going to ISIL by a teenager who had gone ahead of her.



They were groomed. This has nothing to do with Begum. She says she was not groomed and she chose to go.


Episode 5

Begum described being held captive in a madrassa. The only way out was to get married, so she agreed to this. ISIL married her to a Kosovan man. The podcaster interviewed him too.

Most victims of grooming often don't realise they are being groomed plus there has been some persuasion/recruitment using children in grooming cases so it's difficult to argue that she wasn't groomed for the above reasons although I agree it is hard to say.

I haven't heard the podcast but recently watched the BBC documentary which seems to cover most of the events. I think that her case will likely be overturned as it will be classed as child trafficking. Rasheed was known to canadian intelligence and it appears likely that he had told the met of her disappearance but only 4 days after then incident.

The definition for trafficking includes transportation or recruitment by coercion or deception for the purpose of exploitation with consent not being a factor in the case of children. The combination of her friend's actions and material she consumed online as well as Rasheed's role arguably meet the above criteria.

I am a bit ambivalent about the entire thing. On the basis of facts alone, I think she is an obvious victim of exploitation and trafficking but I was shocked at times during her interview where she appeared to show apathy towards certain questions.

Regardless of what happens, it's hard to see how she'll ever recover from this - the way she described the death of her children, the conditions that she was in, (and probably not all of it will ever be known) but no one goes through something like that without an enduring sense of loss and grief. She's unlikely to even be safe from threats/attacks if she does return to the UK nor her family. From her interview, I don't think she has realised quite yet what awaits her.

The UK gov as usual have shown a complete lack of understanding towards this case and probably should have tried her in a UK court of law before deciding to strip her citizenship away. As far as I'm concerned, Sajid Javed has blood on his hands for the death of her son, it was a haphazard and heartless decision.

Most importantly, with these cases, there is always a lack of coverage and detail on how people get radicalised and can develop such strong anti-western/pro-extremist mindsets. I think that conversation is left alone because it's a difficult one as it would force Britain to look at its own role in the rise of extremism as well force a hard conversation among muslim communities but you can't really do one without the other.

 

[MenInG]

Treat each other with respect or dont post on this thread.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Treat each other with respect or dont post on this thread.

Facts are respect even if the poster doesnt like the truth.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I did no such thing. you made that up in your head and attributed it to me.

The way I see it three alleged crimes were committed in three countries:

1.a British citizen convinced Begum to travel to Turkiye with a view to joining ISIl.

2. ISIL operatives, one of whom was a double agent trafficked her across Turkiye.

3. ISIL coerced her into marriage inside Syria.




All I am doing it sticking to known facts, rather than the opinion-as-fact which you go in for.



No evidence that she was groomed by Rasheed, a Syrian not a Canadian. No evidence that MI6 knew about it. You are making more stuff up in your head.

What have I apologised for? I shout for Begum’s rights to be upheld again and again. I merely burn away your false equivalences and look at the facts.

Ill try again, as my post was binned for some reason.

You FAIL TO mention the Canadian Intelligence.

This is the key.

Western intelligence groomed children, trafficked them to be raped by ISIS. Nobody should be an apologist for this.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Most victims of grooming often don't realise they are being groomed plus there has been some persuasion/recruitment using children in grooming cases so it's difficult to argue that she wasn't groomed for the above reasons although I agree it is hard to say.

I haven't heard the podcast but recently watched the BBC documentary which seems to cover most of the events. I think that her case will likely be overturned as it will be classed as child trafficking. Rasheed was known to canadian intelligence and it appears likely that he had told the met of her disappearance but only 4 days after then incident.

The definition for trafficking includes transportation or recruitment by coercion or deception for the purpose of exploitation with consent not being a factor in the case of children. The combination of her friend's actions and material she consumed online as well as Rasheed's role arguably meet the above criteria.

I am a bit ambivalent about the entire thing. On the basis of facts alone, I think she is an obvious victim of exploitation and trafficking but I was shocked at times during her interview where she appeared to show apathy towards certain questions.

Regardless of what happens, it's hard to see how she'll ever recover from this - the way she described the death of her children, the conditions that she was in, (and probably not all of it will ever be known) but no one goes through something like that without an enduring sense of loss and grief. She's unlikely to even be safe from threats/attacks if she does return to the UK nor her family. From her interview, I don't think she has realised quite yet what awaits her.

The UK gov as usual have shown a complete lack of understanding towards this case and probably should have tried her in a UK court of law before deciding to strip her citizenship away. As far as I'm concerned, Sajid Javed has blood on his hands for the death of her son, it was a haphazard and heartless decision.

Most importantly, with these cases, there is always a lack of coverage and detail on how people get radicalised and can develop such strong anti-western/pro-extremist mindsets. I think that conversation is left alone because it's a difficult one as it would force Britain to look at its own role in the rise of extremism as well force a hard conversation among muslim communities but you can't really do one without the other.

Really good post. A lot to think about.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ill try again, as my post was binned for some reason.

You FAIL TO mention the Canadian Intelligence.

This is the key.

Western intelligence groomed children, trafficked them to be raped by ISIS. Nobody should be an apologist for this.

I don't know why this is overlooked. I don't really have much sympathy for Shamima, but then I don't really consider 15 year old girls as children. They aren't mature by any means, but in the UK plenty of girls get pregnant by that age, groomed or not.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't know why this is overlooked. I don't really have much sympathy for Shamima, but then I don't really consider 15 year old girls as children. They aren't mature by any means, but in the UK plenty of girls get pregnant by that age, groomed or not.

Im going by UK law, here 15 year old girls are considered children , no different to a 10 year old girl(in the law).

The BBC have done this long podcast, which is nothing more than an lame attempt to divert the truth , as we are aware now she was trafficked by a Canadian agent.

A 15 year old groomed by disgusting Asians is no different to a 15 year old groomed by a Canadian intelligence. Actually there is one difference, one was groomed by government office and this was hidden.

 

[Gilly]

Ill try again, as my post was binned for some reason.

You FAIL TO mention the Canadian Intelligence.

This is the key.

Western intelligence groomed children, trafficked them to be raped by ISIS. Nobody should be an apologist for this.

Can you provide any evidence for this or is just ISIS propagander you are messaging for them?.

 

[saeedhk]

She betrayed her oath to the Queen, chose to go and fight with ISIS and kill Brits and other people. She should left alone In Syria/Iraq and never be allowed to come back to the UK. This is ridiculous!

First, you migrate to Western countries who welcome you with open arms and then you pick up weapons against the same people who welcomed you and who gave you food, shelter, health and education!

 

[Technics 1210]

She betrayed her oath to the Queen, chose to go and fight with ISIS and kill Brits and other people. She should left alone In Syria/Iraq and never be allowed to come back to the UK. This is ridiculous!

First, you migrate to Western countries who welcome you with open arms and then you pick up weapons against the same people who welcomed you and who gave you food, shelter, health and education!

Get your facts straight, Shamima Begum was born in the UK.

Not to mention there are examples of white born UK nationals who also went to Syria to fight for ISIS - look up Sally Jones.

Your take is worse than liberals.

 

[sweep_shot]

She betrayed her oath to the Queen, chose to go and fight with ISIS and kill Brits and other people. She should left alone In Syria/Iraq and never be allowed to come back to the UK. This is ridiculous!

First, you migrate to Western countries who welcome you with open arms and then you pick up weapons against the same people who welcomed you and who gave you food, shelter, health and education!

Shamima was born in England. She was not an immigrant.

 

[saeedhk]

Get your facts straight, Shamima Begum was born in the UK.

Not to mention there are examples of white born UK nationals who also went to Syria to fight for ISIS - look up Sally Jones.

Your take is worse than liberals.

What does it have to do with being born in the UK? Her parents were immigrants so she is a daughter of immigrants. She should not be given any special privileges. Let this be a lesson to all those would-be Western jihadis that you should be grateful to your host countries for giving you a life of luxury.

 

[SalimBhai]

She is British and is British problem.

 

[Robert]

Can you provide any evidence for this or is just ISIS propagander you are messaging for them?.

He has none, and continually denies the adult Begum’s testimony on her motivation.

 

[Robert]

What does it have to do with being born in the UK? Her parents were immigrants so she is a daughter of immigrants. She should not be given any special privileges. Let this be a lesson to all those would-be Western jihadis that you should be grateful to your host countries for giving you a life of luxury.

Because revocation of British citizenship of a born Britain is an illiberal act which cannot be tolerated by those who want UK to be a decent country.

What oath to the Queen? I took no such oath.

 

[Technics 1210]

What does it have to do with being born in the UK? Her parents were immigrants so she is a daughter of immigrants. She should not be given any special privileges. Let this be a lesson to all those would-be Western jihadis that you should be grateful to your host countries for giving you a life of luxury.

Your poor attempt at dissing Muslim immigrants was pretty obvious but thankfully some of us are aware of the facts. Which is also why I mentioned white Brits heading off to fight for ISIS too, but you conveniently ignored this point.

The rest of your post is just babble and not relevant.

 

[SalimBhai]

Is there any real evidence?

 

[Rajdeep]

She should NEVER be allowed back in the UK. I don't believe in this theory that just bcoz she was born in UK, it is UK's problem. No. Sometime we need to use common sense and treat cases accordingly. She is a war criminal and should be treated as such. Zero sympathy.

She proactively went and joined a terrorist organization whose sole purpose was to kill civilian's and terrorize the western world. Just bcoz that terrorist organization has been wiped out now from face of earth (thankfully), she wants to come back to the same country which she wanted to cause harm. Absolutely mind boggling hypocrisy.

I am sure she still doesn't have any remorse for what she has done. The only reason she wants to come back is bcoz she understands British legal system is weak. She will live a much better life in Jails here at the expense of tax payers money with full facility than what she is getting on those Syrian camps. At max she will get 10-12 years prison term anyway and then she will be free. You can probably spot her again in Whitechapel, Aldgate, Stephney Green or Bethnal Green area. No thanks, we need to make an example out of her.

I am sure if she was a US citizen, she would never want to return and that might land her GITMO/ADX Florence for a life sentence. That is exactly where she belongs.

 

[Robert]

She should NEVER be allowed back in the UK. I don't believe in this theory that just bcoz she was born in UK, it is UK's problem. No. Sometime we need to use common sense and treat cases accordingly. She is a war criminal and should be treated as such. Zero sympathy.

She proactively went and joined a terrorist organization whose sole purpose was to kill civilian's and terrorize the western world. Just bcoz that terrorist organization has been wiped out now from face of earth (thankfully), she wants to come back to the same country which she wanted to cause harm. Absolutely mind boggling hypocrisy.

What specific war crime do you allege she committed?

Even if true, war criminals are sent to jail by decent societies, not deprived of citizenship.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Can you provide any evidence for this or is just ISIS propagander you are messaging for them?.

Why would I parrot ISIS propaganda? i know what your;re trying to suggest but for the record ISIS are terrorist low life , no different to the Nazis in Ukraine or the Australian forces who went to Afghanistan and murdered people in cold blood.

Perhaps if you try reading you will know it was a Canadian intel agent who groomed the girls to go to Syria. Its the west who has been arming Al-Qaeda and ISIS in Iraq but Im not here to educate you, unless you pay me?

 

[KingKhanWC]

She should NEVER be allowed back in the UK. I don't believe in this theory that just bcoz she was born in UK, it is UK's problem. No. Sometime we need to use common sense and treat cases accordingly. She is a war criminal and should be treated as such. Zero sympathy.

She proactively went and joined a terrorist organization whose sole purpose was to kill civilian's and terrorize the western world. Just bcoz that terrorist organization has been wiped out now from face of earth (thankfully), she wants to come back to the same country which she wanted to cause harm. Absolutely mind boggling hypocrisy.

I am sure she still doesn't have any remorse for what she has done. The only reason she wants to come back is bcoz she understands British legal system is weak. She will live a much better life in Jails here at the expense of tax payers money with full facility than what she is getting on those Syrian camps. At max she will get 10-12 years prison term anyway and then she will be free. You can probably spot her again in Whitechapel, Aldgate, Stephney Green or Bethnal Green area. No thanks, we need to make an example out of her.

I am sure if she was a US citizen, she would never want to return and that might land her GITMO/ADX Florence for a life sentence. That is exactly where she belongs.

She was 15, this is a child in UK law. Children cannot consent.

This isnt backward India where 10 million children are forced into prostitution and nobody cares.

 

[Rajdeep]

She was 15, this is a child in UK law. Children cannot consent.

This isnt backward India where 10 million children are forced into prostitution and nobody cares.

Aww cute attempt but fact is she is a terrorist and should be dealt like one. Law can be changed anytime by passing a legislation in parliament. That is exactly what Sajid Javed did by stripping her British citizenship. She should NEVER be allowed back.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Aww cute attempt but fact is she is a terrorist and should be dealt like one. Law can be changed anytime by passing a legislation in parliament. That is exactly what Sajid Javed did by stripping her British citizenship. She should NEVER be allowed back.

You have trouble reading. In the UK a child doesnt have responsibility if groomed. This is like saying 15 year old girls who do drugs and booze with old men are loose girls who enjoy it. The law regarding children age of consent will not change.

Brtiish politicians are nearly as bad as the BJP, but nobody here takes them seriously. Tories are on the way out. The UK government supported terrorists in Syria and western intel groomed girls to send over to them. Its ok you worry about the millions of children in India who are prostitutes, by your logic, they want to be .

 

[Rajdeep]

You have trouble reading. In the UK a child doesnt have responsibility if groomed. This is like saying 15 year old girls who do drugs and booze with old men are loose girls who enjoy it. The law regarding children age of consent will not change.

Brtiish politicians are nearly as bad as the BJP, but nobody here takes them seriously. Tories are on the way out. The UK government supported terrorists in Syria and western intel groomed girls to send over to them. Its ok you worry about the millions of children in India who are prostitutes, by your logic, they want to be .

Looks like you are mixing your opinion with everyone

Why don't you go to any Shamima Begum video in SKY/BBC channels or British tabloids and read the comments? 99.9% are in favour of not letting her back in the country.

As I said 15 year old is a silly excuse. She was clearly smart enough to know what she was doing and went onto war zone in Syria to join a terrorist organization who were threatening western world. People like her should never be allowed back. No one is asking child law to change and it can stay the same for domestic crimes but an exception can always be made for terrorists like her.

 

[Robert]

Aww cute attempt but fact is she is a terrorist and should be dealt like one. Law can be changed anytime by passing a legislation in parliament. That is exactly what Sajid Javed did by stripping her British citizenship. She should NEVER be allowed back.

Begum says she was not groomed.

But that is not relevant to Sajid’s authoritarian dog-whistle move.

Bring her home. Charge her is there is evidence of a crime. Punish and rehabilitate her.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Looks like you are mixing your opinion with everyone

Why don't you go to any Shamima Begum video in SKY/BBC channels or British tabloids and read the comments? 99.9% are in favour of not letting her back in the country.

As I said 15 year old is a silly excuse. She was clearly smart enough to know what she was doing and went onto war zone in Syria to join a terrorist organization who were threatening western world. People like her should never be allowed back. No one is asking child law to change and it can stay the same for domestic crimes but an exception can always be made for terrorists like her.

Its not an excuse, its the LAW of the land. It doesnt matter what brainwashed fools say on the internet.

Of course your name is Rajdeep and you see her has a Muslim girl so dont care if she was groomed by western intel. Thats fine as this isnt BJP India and I think you should worry about the plight of millions of young girls in India also groomed but I assume you blame them too.

 

[Rajdeep]

Its not an excuse, its the LAW of the land. It doesnt matter what brainwashed fools say on the internet.

Of course your name is Rajdeep and you see her has a Muslim girl so dont care if she was groomed by western intel. Thats fine as this isnt BJP India and I think you should worry about the plight of millions of young girls in India also groomed but I assume you blame them too.

Why are you bringing India here?

I live and pay taxes in UK. So don't want ISIS terrorists being brought back to face justice here and stay in prison's at the expense of tax payers money. Law of the land can always be changed or an exemption can always be made. It is not that tough.

The bottomline is she should stay stateless and govt must made an example out of her.

 

[Rajdeep]

Begum says she was not groomed.

But that is not relevant to Sajid’s authoritarian dog-whistle move.

Bring her home. Charge her is there is evidence of a crime. Punish and rehabilitate her.

Nothing wrong Sajid did. She was not any petty thief, knife attacker or a pick pocketer. She went to fight war in Syria and joined an army that attacked western world. Now when that army has been defeated, she want to come back to the same country she wanted to do harm. Don't think you think it sounds really silly.

Maybe its your opinion Robert that let her come back and face justice. I respect that but I, like majority in this country, don't want her back. We all know poor justice system in UK and she will always remain a threat.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think this is the first time on PP that I agree with [MENTION=152021]Rajdeep[/MENTION]

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why are you bringing India here?

I live and pay taxes in UK. So don't want ISIS terrorists being brought back to face justice here and stay in prison's at the expense of tax payers money. Law of the land can always be changed or an exemption can always be made. It is not that tough.

The bottomline is she should stay stateless and govt must made an example out of her.

Im pointing out your lack of care for female children isnt surprising as India has little care for them. The biggest risk of terrorism in the UK now is the far right , domestic terrorism but you're anti Muslim mindset wouldnt know or accept this.

The government doesnt want her to reveal how western intel groomed her. Many others have returned and they werent children.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think this is the first time on PP that I agree with [MENTION=152021]Rajdeep[/MENTION]

Its the child fault for being groomed? Do you also believe the white girls who were abused by disgusting Asian men were also at fault?

 

[sweep_shot]

Its the child fault for being groomed? Do you also believe the white girls who were abused by disgusting Asian men were also at fault?

Good point. If Shamima was not groomed, those white girls were also not groomed. One can't have it both ways.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Good point. If Shamima was not groomed, those white girls were also not groomed. One can't have it both ways.

I believe all were groomed. We need a free, fair and independent inquiry. This is a good read.

Tasnime Akunjee told The Observer that Canadian Security Intelligence Service agents had serious concerns over allegations, made in a new book, that a Daesh human trafficker, Mohammed Al-Rashed, who helped Begum and two other teenage girls from London reach Syria, had ties to the CSIS.

The book, “Secret History of the Five Eyes,” written by journalist Richard Kerbaj, also claims London’s Metropolitan Police were aware that the trafficker who smuggled the trio to Syria was a double agent with links to a Western intelligence agency.

“I have spoken to individuals within the CSIS who are extremely concerned and shocked about its role in the trafficking of Shamima Begum, and would strongly support an inquiry into its involvement,” Akunjee said, adding that he feared children could be trafficked in such a manner in order to become intelligence assets.

“It is also worth noting that, at the time of her trafficking into Syria, [the] CSIS did not have the legal authority to recruit and provide resources to someone engaged in supporting terrorism,” he added.

The revelations have prompted calls for an inquiry into Begum’s journey to Syria and the role of intelligence agencies in it, with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau prompted to address the book’s assertions, saying agencies need to be “flexible and creative” in fulfilling their duties but still abide by the law.

Kerbaj’s book claims the Canadian government admitted its involvement in the episode and asked UK authorities, as fellow members of the Five Eyes intelligence pact that also includes the US, Australia and New Zealand, to help cover up the story.

It also says CSIS officials met the former head of counterterrorism at the Metropolitan Police, Richard Walton, shortly after Begum left the UK in 2015.

Begum is currently in a prison camp for Daesh members in northeastern Syria. One of her companions, Kadiza Sultana, who was 16 when she left the UK, is thought to be dead, while the other, Amira Abase, who was 15, is missing.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2156036/world

 

[Gilly]

Not just females that ISIS groom, they also groom males who they brainwash to hate the west.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Not just females that ISIS groom, they also groom males who they brainwash to hate the west.

Sure but the west also grooms female children to send them to but thats ok for you being so anti Muslim.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Its the child fault for being groomed? Do you also believe the white girls who were abused by disgusting Asian men were also at fault?

She should be tried in Iraq or Syria.

If there is evidence she was groomed then that should be used as a mitigating factor in her punishment by their courts.

 

[Gilly]

Sure but the west also grooms female children to send them to but thats ok for you being so anti Muslim.

Is there something wrong with being anti ISIS?.

 

[Robert]

Nothing wrong Sajid did. She was not any petty thief, knife attacker or a pick pocketer. She went to fight war in Syria and joined an army that attacked western world. Now when that army has been defeated, she want to come back to the same country she wanted to do harm. Don't think you think it sounds really silly.

Maybe it’s your opinion Robert that let her come back and face justice. I respect that but I, like majority in this country, don't want her back. We all know poor justice system in UK and she will always remain a threat.

She didn’t fight. She bore three children for the state of ISIL, all of whom sadly died in infancy due to the terrible medical facilities.

How did ISIL attack the West? It appeared to be engaged in civil war in majority-Muslim nations to me.

How is she a threat to UK?

What is “poor” about the British system of justice, apart from underfunding?

 

[SalimBhai]

Serious question. Is there any evidence that begum was groomed by Canadian intelligence?? On another note. She is British born and should face the music in UK.

 

[Robert]

Serious question. Is there any evidence that begum was groomed by Canadian intelligence?? On another note. She is British born and should face the music in UK.

Nil.

She was met in Turkiye by an ISIL operative who had been turned by Canadian intelligence. He wasn’t part of her decision to go to ISIL, but he did give her a lift to the Syrian border.

It’s not known whether he shared this information with his paymasters in Montreal. He gave them the names of other ISIL operatives in several countries.

 

[Pakpak]

She was under 16 hence a child. And was obviously groomed. Adam Johnsons child gf also denied he groomed her. Didn't make his act non criminal.

Absolutely terrible posts by Robert who surprisingly is having a total shocker in this thread.

 

[sweep_shot]

She was under 16 hence a child. And was obviously groomed. Adam Johnsons child gf also denied he groomed her. Didn't make his act non criminal.

Absolutely terrible posts by Robert who surprisingly is having a total shocker in this thread.

As per Robert, only 15-year old white girls can get groomed. If the skin is brown, she is responsible for her action.

That's what it seems like.

 

[JaDed]

She should NEVER be allowed back in the UK. I don't believe in this theory that just bcoz she was born in UK, it is UK's problem. No. Sometime we need to use common sense and treat cases accordingly. She is a war criminal and should be treated as such. Zero sympathy.

She proactively went and joined a terrorist organization whose sole purpose was to kill civilian's and terrorize the western world. Just bcoz that terrorist organization has been wiped out now from face of earth (thankfully), she wants to come back to the same country which she wanted to cause harm. Absolutely mind boggling hypocrisy.

I am sure she still doesn't have any remorse for what she has done. The only reason she wants to come back is bcoz she understands British legal system is weak. She will live a much better life in Jails here at the expense of tax payers money with full facility than what she is getting on those Syrian camps. At max she will get 10-12 years prison term anyway and then she will be free. You can probably spot her again in Whitechapel, Aldgate, Stephney Green or Bethnal Green area. No thanks, we need to make an example out of her.

I am sure if she was a US citizen, she would never want to return and that might land her GITMO/ADX Florence for a life sentence. That is exactly where she belongs.

She was born there so its UK’s responsibility, UK cannot only choose only whites to be their citizens, if this is the standard they want to set they should get rid of their extradition treaties and be ready for all their citizens to be tried in courts in other countries.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

She was born there so its UK’s responsibility, UK cannot only choose only whites to be their citizens, if this is the standard they want to set they should get rid of their extradition treaties and be ready for all their citizens to be tried in courts in other countries.

There is a white guy also in a similar situation.

The UK govt stripped him of his citizenship and wanted nothing to do with him.

He is lucky and the Canadians have allegedly taken him in.

 

[Robert]

She was under 16 hence a child. And was obviously groomed. Adam Johnsons child gf also denied he groomed her. Didn't make his act non criminal.

Absolutely terrible posts by Robert who surprisingly is having a total shocker in this thread.

All I am doing is going by her own testimony.

But I guess you guys know more about her motives and influences than she does.

 

[sweep_shot]

All I am doing is going by her own testimony.

But I guess you guys know more about her motives and influences than she does.

We should go by testimonies of those 15-year old white girls too. They were not groomed too then (if we apply Robert's logic).

 

[SalimBhai]

We should go by testimonies of those 15-year old white girls too. They were not groomed too then (if we apply Robert's logic).

They did get some of their testimony also. Guess what they said they were manipulated and groomed.

 

[Technics 1210]

We should go by testimonies of those 15-year old white girls too. They were not groomed too then (if we apply Robert's logic).

Forget 15 year olds, there are adult white women who have testified in support of Andrew Tate and these same liberals reject their testimonies!

 

[Pakpak]

All I am doing is going by her own testimony.

But I guess you guys know more about her motives and influences than she does.

I actually have a law degree Robert and my previous career was legal (albeit not criminal, however we studied criminal law quite intensively as part of our degree). What you're saying makes no sense. Anyone under the age of 16 is a child, legally in the United Kingdom. You have many sexual cases as well or common cases where the child can insist they were not groomed but due to their age they do not have capacity to make that decision and the adult is held legally responsible. An example is Rhianan Rudd, a 15 year who had terror charges dropped against her as it was ruled due to her age she was groomed.

Along with her suffering likely PTSD due to where she was taken and having her kids dying and the fact she unfortunately isn't bright, any lawyer with a semblance of common sense and on her side her case would see very different results.

Its not about 'knowing her motives and influences'. Its about what is legal and what is not.

 

[Robert]

I actually have a law degree Robert and my previous career was legal (albeit not criminal, however we studied criminal law quite intensively as part of our degree). What you're saying makes no sense. Anyone under the age of 16 is a child, legally in the United Kingdom. You have many sexual cases as well or common cases where the child can insist they were not groomed but due to their age they do not have capacity to make that decision and the adult is held legally responsible. An example is Rhianan Rudd, a 15 year who had terror charges dropped against her as it was ruled due to her age she was groomed.

Along with her suffering likely PTSD due to where she was taken and having her kids dying and the fact she unfortunately isn't bright, any lawyer with a semblance of common sense and on her side her case would see very different results.

It’s not about 'knowing her motives and influences'. It’s about what is legal and what is not.

But Begum is not ruled by a court to have been groomed. There has been no court case. Neither can there be as the grooming you allege happened on-line from Syria.

What is the legal definition of grooming? Does being persuaded to go to Turkiye by another teenage girl count as grooming? That’s not a “sexual case” surely?

The age of criminal responsibility in UK is ten not sixteen, so children have the capacity to make decisions. But can another child be a groomer?

There are three different legal jurisdictions here - UK, Turkiye and Syria. While the crime of trafficking a child in Turkiye appears to have been committed by this disappeared man, and Begum was coerced into under-age marriage in Syria by ISIL, I am unsure if a crime was committed in UK

 

[MenInG]

Judges will give their decision on Wednesday whether the removal of British citizenship from Shamima Begum, who left the UK as a 15-year-old schoolgirl to join Islamic State (IS), was lawful.

 

[MenInG]

Shamima Begum, who left the United Kingdom to join ISIS at the age of 15, has lost her appeal against the decision to revoke her British citizenship, according to UK news agency PA Media.

The decision does not determine if Begum can return to the UK, but whether the removal of her citizenship was lawful.

The judge, Robert Jay, gave the decision on Wednesday following a five-day hearing in November.

Begum, now aged 23, left Britain in 2015 with two school friends as a teenager join the ISIS terror group in Syria. In February 2019, she re-emerged and made international headlines as the “ISIS bride” after pleading with the UK government to return to her home country to give birth to her son.

Then-Home Secretary Sajid Javid removed her British citizenship on February 19, 2019. Begum’s newborn son died in a northern Syrian refugee camp the following month.

She has told British media she had two other children prior to that child, who also died in Syria during infancy.

She challenged the decision but in June 2019, the government refused her application for leave to enter the UK to pursue her appeal.

In 2020, the UK Court of Appeal ruled Begum should be granted leave to enter the country because otherwise, it would not be “a fair and effective hearing.”

The following year, the Supreme Court reversed that decision, arguing that the Court of Appeal made four errors when it ruled that Begum should be allowed to return to the UK to carry out her appeal.

Begum has made several public appeals as she fought against the government’s decision, most recently appearing in BBC documentary The Shamima Begum Story and a 10-part BBC podcast series.

The decision to revoke Begum’s citizenship has come under fire from human rights campaigners and legal experts alike who argue that the revocation rendered her stateless and compromised her right to a fair appeal.

CNN

 

[Robert]

Looks like MI6 has given the Home Secretary certain information on Begum and surrounding issues and the Supreme Court has backed off and kicked it back to the Home Secretary.

Begum is running out of road now. Only the ECHR is left to appeal to.

She's going to be left stateless. I find it very sad.

 

[topspin]

Great news to see Shamima lose her British citizenship. Now God willing she won't be allowed back in the UK. She was old enough to know what she was getting herself into but I blame her dad for her upbringing and how it all turned upside down for her. He had extremist views and was sympathetic towards terrorists.

This is what can happen when you believe in conspiracy theories if you end up mixing with the wrong crowd. This news won't please the Brum conspiracy theorists but one day they will learn.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Forget 15 year olds, there are adult white women who have testified in support of Andrew Tate and these same liberals reject their testimonies!

The law is often worded in such a way it can be interpreted loosely, and that can suit the agenda of the day when it is politically expedient. It can also suit those who want to use this expediency to suit their own bias or bigotry. Personally I have always maintained that Shamima's innocence is a sham, but at the same time I don't believe that a 15 year old is necessary innocent just because of a numerical age. We need to make our mind up as Brits which standard we want to hold to and then apply it consistently.

 

[Pakpak]

But Begum is not ruled by a court to have been groomed. There has been no court case. Neither can there be as the grooming you allege happened on-line from Syria.

What is the legal definition of grooming? Does being persuaded to go to Turkiye by another teenage girl count as grooming? That’s not a “sexual case” surely?

The age of criminal responsibility in UK is ten not sixteen, so children have the capacity to make decisions. But can another child be a groomer?

There are three different legal jurisdictions here - UK, Turkiye and Syria. While the crime of trafficking a child in Turkiye appears to have been committed by this disappeared man, and Begum was coerced into under-age marriage in Syria by ISIL, I am unsure if a crime was committed in UK

She was groomed and promised a marriage online. It can be easily argued otherwise why are you asking for a female to come to Syria. To wage war? No. To marry off.

I'm absolutely baffled by your posts

Carry on

 

[Robert]

She was groomed and promised a marriage online. It can be easily argued otherwise why are you asking for a female to come to Syria. To wage war? No. To marry off.

Ah, I see what you mean now.

 

[Local.Dada]

When did being 15-year old become old enough?

Also, really classy from you blaming his father. But, I don't expect anything better from you.

That’s a prime age when brainwashing happens. USA tried to rehabilitate a lot of Afghan kids who were trained to be suicide bombers, while it was a success for a very few, most went back to their old ways. It’s a high risk.

2nd yes it is the parents fault in these cases. It happens for 2 reasons either the parents are involved in taking money and sending their kids to these things or ignoring their kids when things are slipping out.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Good decision by the courts.

Daesh and their ilk should be seen as radioactive. Better that they are buried under the ground than to come into contact with them.

This is a big lesson to those Muslims that do not vociferously condemn these groups and operate in a bit of a grey area.

 

[sweep_shot]

Good decision by the courts.

Daesh and their ilk should be seen as radioactive. Better that they are buried under the ground than to come into contact with them.

This is a big lesson to those Muslims that do not vociferously condemn these groups and operate in a bit of a grey area.

I believe members from ISIS, TTP, Boko Haram etc. need to be lined up and executed with firing squads. They are the ultimate scumbags.

Having said that, I think those who joined as kids (Shamima, for example) should be jailed instead of executions.

Also, Shamima was trafficked by western intelligence. Even BBC reported on that.

 

[Technics 1210]

I am laughing at those who try and deceive the tender age of 15 in Syria by linking it to Islam in a derogatory manner.

May I remind you all liberals and Islamophobes, that the current age of sexual consent in JAPAN is 13.

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan

Ah but according to the same set of liberals and Islamophobics, Japan is an advanced and developed country, but Syria is backwards.

Liberalism is the disease, is the enemy,

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I believe members from ISIS, TTP, Boko Haram etc. need to be lined up and executed with firing squads. They are the ultimate scumbags.

Having said that, I think those who joined as kids (Shamima, for example) should be jailed instead of executions.

Also, Shamima was trafficked by western intelligence. Even BBC reported on that.

She should be jailed in Syria/Iraq not here.

In this case I am more of a fan of justice as a deterrent rather than thinking criminals can be rehabilitated.

The next time one of these groups pops up perhaps people will think twice about joining and making a mockery of our religion.

 

[topspin]

Good decision by the courts.

Daesh and their ilk should be seen as radioactive. Better that they are buried under the ground than to come into contact with them.

This is a big lesson to those Muslims that do not vociferously condemn these groups and operate in a bit of a grey area.

Well said. It just goes to show any sympathy, leeway or any benefit of the doubt given towards these groups is all that it takes as a community for this to become a dangerous precedent.

 

[sweep_shot]

Shamima should be penalized. No doubt.

However, some of our liberal posters are overlooking the interference of western intelligence. Question is how many such cases happened where western intelligence resorted to entrapment and grooming?

They had the opportunity to stop Shamima from reaching Syria but they didn't. Why?

 

[shaz619]

Good decision by the courts.

Daesh and their ilk should be seen as radioactive. Better that they are buried under the ground than to come into contact with them.

This is a big lesson to those Muslims that do not vociferously condemn these groups and operate in a bit of a grey area.

I totally agree with you and in a big way it’s a huge positive that they are making an example out of her given those who operate between that grey area.

However, I am not sure if taking her citizenship is right. She should be punished and penalised in the UK. Them taking her citizenship so swiftly has set a precedent that this could happen to anyone from a minority background and not just for this crime, I fear especially with far right sentiment growing and these folk being appeased to, it wouldn’t surprise me if they target the normal folk like us because our citizenship is not going to be treated on a level playing field as English folk with deeper ties to the country. The Tories are going to lose the elections and am not a fan of theirs but we will see a rise in far right political movements to.