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Share your arranged marriage experience

Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
 
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DW44 said:
Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
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I would say definitely go with option b. One thing which always annoys me with traditional arranged marriages is that the unsuspecting partner is often totally unaware of the situation which they are marrying into, and you yourself have at least acknowledged that she could be a victim in this if things pan out as you suspect. So stick to your principles and let your family know that there is no other way. They'll be hurt, but they'll get over it in time. And if they don't, then there's nothing you can do, it's what happens when you follow your own path and it conflicts with theirs.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Don't do anything you don't want to do under pressure. "Losing your family" is an empty threat. Especially for a guy.
 
DW44 said:
Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
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I feel like their threats are empty, and that you should follow your own beliefs and principles. There is no point in ruining a part of your life, and some girl's who is probably oblivious to the fact that you hate the idea of arranged marriage. I think the fact that you're atheist will have an effect on your family, as I think they'll understand over time why you did this, not because out of wanting to be disobedient or rebellious towards your own families ideas, but rather to save yourself from getting into a very ugly situation. If you were muslim, I'd say it would be much different outcome to be honest, it would be harder to say no because in some ways, your beliefs would align (despite your hatred for arranged marriage) with what your mother is saying.
 
DW44 said:
Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
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Go with B. Don't marry due to pressure of any kind (societal, religious etc). It will not only spoil your life but of the spouse as well, not to mention any children you two may have. The family usually come around but even if they don't, there is no point in going through all this suffering just to give them the momentary satisfaction of fulfilling whatever duties they think they may have. You're also only 29 and I believe you're going abroad to work and it would be better if you went there and build a life for yourself without the burden of having the added responsibility of another person on your shoulders.
 
DW44 said:
Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
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Go with B. A marriage that starts with pre-determined conditions and circumstances will not end in the benefit of those involved. At the end of the day, you are getting married, not your parents. Your parents will reconcile with you eventually.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] You ever been in the relationships while in college or afterwards? How did they go? Surely you could find loads of liberal (comparatively) Pakistani women who aren't atheist per se but are understanding and willing to adjust and compromise on a few major points. I mean not everyone there is a burqa wearing fanatic is it?
 
TM Riddle said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] You ever been in the relationships while in college or afterwards? How did they go? Surely you could find loads of liberal (comparatively) Pakistani women who aren't atheist per se but are understanding and willing to adjust and compromise on a few major points. I mean not everyone there is a burqa wearing fanatic is it?
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When I find someone, I'll find them. I'm in no mood to get married right now. Currently in a relationship that can best be described as semi-serious with someone similar enough to me to also not want to get married so that's not an option I'm exploring either.

Re everyone else. Most people seem to be going with B which is the logical thing to do but again, what concerns me is the long term, potentially irreparable damage it could do to my relationship with my family, one of the few relationships I care about. I'm also leaning towards B but anyone who's been in such a situation, and this being a forum full of people from South Asia I'm sure there are many, would understand the reluctance to go all in on any one option. I've never been a particularly decisive person anyway, and this is one of the more significant decisions I'll make in my life.
 
DW44 said:
When I find someone, I'll find them. I'm in no mood to get married right now. Currently in a relationship that can best be described as semi-serious with someone similar enough to me to also not want to get married so that's not an option I'm exploring either.

Re everyone else. Most people seem to be going with B which is the logical thing to do but again, what concerns me is the long term, potentially irreparable damage it could do to my relationship with my family, one of the few relationships I care about. I'm also leaning towards B but anyone who's been in such a situation, and this being a forum full of people from South Asia I'm sure there are many, would understand the reluctance to go all in on any one option. I've never been a particularly decisive person anyway, and this is one of the more significant decisions I'll make in my life.
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You're unlikely to do irrepairable damage to your family relationship by temporarily delaying marriage for a few years. Unless you make life choices that are seriously taboo, the family is unlikely to hold your unwillingness to give in to their demands against you for too long.
 
OoparCut said:
You're unlikely to do irrepairable damage to your family relationship by temporarily delaying marriage for a few years. Unless you make life choices that are seriously taboo, the family is unlikely to hold your unwillingness to give in to their demands against you for too long.
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Marrying a non Muslim is seriously taboo unless they're Christian or Jewish who, again, are not exactly people I'm likely to marry.
 
DW44 said:
Marrying a non Muslim is seriously taboo unless they're Christian or Jewish who, again, are not exactly people I'm likely to marry.
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You've already let go of that thinking personally, it would seem senseless to go along with it in order to please your family when it goes against everything you believe in, especially if you won't even be living in Pakistan for the rest of your life. A couple of my friends from school married Hindu girls, they fell out with their families from both the girl's side and the boy's, and eventually both sides reconciled. At least that's the case with one couple, the other one moved away and I haven't really kept up to speed with where they are at, but I know they had kids and were going strong. But these were just British desis, don't think they took a very strong position on religion, so might be there is some tension under the surface, never really asked. I suppose there might be issues later on when the kids are older.
 
DW44 said:
Bump!

Wasn’t sure whether to bump this thread or the legendary “My dilemma” but settled on this one since my dilemma involves an arranged marriage story. I’m 28, going on 29 in exactly three months (June 26), living in Lahore. A few weeks back I got a call from home (family in ISB) informing – yes, informing – me that my family, including my sisters, had decided that it was time for me to “settle down” – their words – and, to that end, they were looking for a suitable girl. I told them in no uncertain terms to stop immediately and not concern themselves with when/who I marry. They’re aware of my disdain for arranged marriage, and the ‘traditional’ aspects of Pakistani culture in general.

This is not the first time they’ve expressed a desire to see me married but this time was different in that they were dead serious and my usual tantrum followed by cutting off all contact didn’t make them forget about it. They called later and asked me what I’d decided, at which point things got very ugly. My family is super traditional and I, as a matter of principle, resist any attempt to make me abide by traditions that I see as outdated, immoral and/or unconscionable. Arranged marriage is something I consider all three of those things and a lot more. There was a loud argument and it was intimated by both parties to the other that either side pushing for their case too hard will be responsible for a permanent cutting off of all contact and relations.

My family, especially my super devout mother who knows I’m an atheist, almost certainly have ulterior motives behind this move, given the timing. I have repeatedly made it clear that if I ever do get married, it is imperative that it be to someone who irreligious or, at the very least, not Muslim. To my mother, it is equally important that my spouse be a Muslim so that’s a pretty serious conflict of interest right there. Of all the things I’d rather my spouse not be, a Muslim is easily at the top of the list. I simply do not want more of that religion in my life than I’m already tolerating.

Now I’m going to be leaving Pakistan later this year or, worst case scenario, early next year. My family knows this and I suspect it’s the reason behind the newfound urgency. We’ve had minor arguments, interspersed with the occasional major one, over the issue of marriage ever since I was ~23. Never did it get to the point of ultimatums though and especially never to the point where both sides were willing to essentially cut things off entirely if they didn’t get their way. Mother dear is convinced I will end up marrying some ‘kafir’ if I end up on my own in a free society as a single man and the recent attempts at emotional blackmail have me worried because she’s someone I know to make good on her ultimatums. Rest of my family are firmly in her camp so it’s 4 v 1 and the whole situation is wreaking havoc on my emotional wellbeing.

This brings me to the dilemma part: is there any way this ends well or, at the very least, peacefully? There’s a serious communication gap since I don’t do emotion and rely almost exclusively on logic and reason to argue my position while the other side deals with emotion so there’s no way to talk it out. That has already been tried and it failed miserably. This leaves me with no viable option. The options, if you can even call them that, are:

(a) Say yes to the arranged marriage and keep my family. The downside is that I will spend the rest of my life resenting them and also resenting the fact that I will never be able to be with someone who actually has the same values and worldview as I do. If this happens, there’s a good chance I might end up resenting them to the point where I break things off.

(b) Say no, go my own way, but lose my family. Knowing them for 28 years, it’s not at all unreasonable to think that they will make good on the ‘maa ko bhool jana’ threat.

(c) Say yes with the explicit precondition that if I find the girl and myself to be even slightly incompatible or if we find ourselves in a situation where her religious beliefs influence our lives. This would have been fine(ish?) if the girl was from anywhere but Pakistan and we already had a prior understanding on this issue. Because of the stigma attached to divorce in Pakistani culture, simply put, it would be extremely unfair to the girl and could potentially ruin her life so it’s not an option.

I have thought about this long and hard, going over every permutation and possible outcome – this is normal since my go to method for dealing with any problem is to reduce it to a series of yes-no/true-false dichotomies and explore all possible outcomes for every branch – and I can’t see any course of action that ends with all parties content. If I follow my own principles, the possibility of continuing to have a relation with my family becomes questionable at best. If I give in, knowing myself, I won’t be happy for the rest of my life and probably still end up not speaking to my family because of said resentment. My principles are the closest thing I have to a religion and arranged marriage goes against everything I believe in and stand for. This is the first time in my 9 years on PP that I’m posting about a serious real-world problem here so try not to focus too much on the atheist-Muslim issue and address the actual issue at hand.
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We dont agree on much but I genuniely hope you find a way to maintain close relationships with your family esp your mother and also find happiness in your personal life.

There are plenty of girls who are Muslim but dont practice or a very religious, find one of those. Instead of being selifsh and always wanting your own way because of your own beliefs, comprimise. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't ,its not the end of the world for you or the girl. At least your family will know you tried and wont ask you again the next time. You can replace your wife but you cannot replace your mother, no belief or woman is worth hurting a mother or losing her.
 
KingKhanWC said:
We dont agree on much but I genuniely hope you find a way to maintain close relationships with your family esp your mother and also find happiness in your personal life.

There are plenty of girls who are Muslim but dont practice or a very religious, find one of those. Instead of being selifsh and always wanting your own way because of your own beliefs, comprimise. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't ,its not the end of the world for you or the girl. At least your family will know you tried and wont ask you again the next time. You can replace your wife but you cannot replace your mother, no belief or woman is worth hurting a mother or losing her.
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Not many people would go with it but I agree with this view. Moms are special. Nobody can replace them.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

You are young and hot-blooded. As a result, you take excessive pride in your opinions and beliefs, and your capacity to think for yourself unlike your family members.

Hence, leaving your family for you believe does not seem like the end of the world to you.

However, time will come in your life when you will badly, badly regret your choice. No belief and opinion is worth losing your family and especially your mother. Right now, you might think that I am talking crap, but a day will come when my words might ring in your ears.

You might find a woman who will share the same beliefs as you, you might settle down with her and have a family. If and when you have kids, you will start regretting the choices that you have made. Even if you don’t have kids or don’t settle down with someone, you will still badly regret your decision at some point in time. Mark my words. You may not believe them now but you will believe them one day, and I hope it won’t be too late.

There are only two people in this world who will love you unconditionally, and they are your parents. Not your spouse, not your siblings, not your friends etc. Only your parents, and they are worth a hell of a lot more than your beliefs and opinions. It is something you will appreciate when they will not be around anymore.

I do not want to sound sentimental, but I implore you to ignore everyone who told you to go for option B. We do not know each other and probably never will, but I am rattled and disturbed with what I have read, and I seriously hope you are not contemplating leaving your family.

You have two choices: value your freedom now and live with your decision for the rest of your days, or make a sacrifice for your parents now, which might seem very hard, but it will be a decision that you will one day take pride in as your life goes by.

Also, do not assume that just because your arranged marriage wife will think differently does not mean that you will not be compatible. That is the beauty of arranged marriage, it often brings together two people who could not be any different, but they still manage to find harmony and love.

Nonetheless, if you have already made your decision, I wish you luck, but I do hope that what I said will have some impact on you. Perhaps not now, but surely one day.
 
pakistani pride said:
You know how it goes. Study almost finished. Mother starts emotional blackmail etc. Before you know your married.

Already got a 2 year als baby girl. We both love cricket that helps.
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2 years further and a 2nd child richer!
Married for 5 years now.

It was an arrange marriage but the best thing in my life. In the past 5 years i have learned a lot.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] how do you know you will lose your family if you choose your own time, date and person to get married?

Give them a chance.

And if you really care about family's thinking and even considering 'arrange marriage' thing, have a chat with few girls. Not sure if it's allowed or not, but telling few girls who you are might not be bad idea.
 
Married ten years.. it was arranged. Any relationship is an adjustment. Nothing will ever be perfect, you have to work on it.

I always found the fairer sex to be difficult to understand and I admit I a bit aloof myself.. So if I can make it, anybody can. You just have to not lose sight of the perspective and always look at positives while running into negatives.
 
On topic, been married to girl I talked on internet (yahoo messenger lol) set up by parents and grandmother. It's been 3 years marrying her and 4 years been with her. In these short times, I learned everything about her and vice versa. I exactly know what is she going to say next for most topics.

But I believe there is no such a difference between arranged and love. The drama remains the same.

It's not like love marriage couple don't fight on same issue. or It's not like arrange marriage couple don't give a vibe of love marriage couple.

We have been told by many that we looked like a love marriage couple. I don't understand what it means.

One thing I would say with arrange marriage, everything will come down on you, especially for guy. And for girl, it's the groom's family.

There will be lots of shock and horror and you would be called names. 'That you promised me this and that' But key is to hang in there, somehow find a way to say sorry, trust me if your partner loves you, he or she will understand.

See with arranged marriage: it takes a while before it goes to full gear, but once it does, there is no turning back. It's a full speed with lots of happiness.

In love marriage you get attraction then need to get attention then acceptance of each other fall in love then long term commitment.

In arrange marriage you get attraction by looking once or twice then (attention + acceptance + commitment) all crunch in one. So first couple of years are very crucial. Financially stable husband with supportive family members make the ride smoother.

Most rides aren't smoother, but that's where the fun is, you have to work it. You must learn to shape and evolve, and make your partner understand that.

My wife scold me as much as she praise me to others. She tells me she is the luckiest girl and next day she is the unfortunate one :)) That's the marriage.

One thing I noticed that will win you all battle in marriage is persistent love toward your partner, if you have that and know how to show it, nothing can break you. (it won't be easy when your partner shout top her/his lungs, but get irritated when you do the same) :)) But it can work 100%
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Option B. The fact that from their POV its their way or the highway pretty much says it all when it comes to desi family blackmailing tactics. If it was something which equally affected them then their blackmailing would make sense. But as it is you're the one marrying someone, not them, the level of blackmailing from their behalf in terms of ''we will disown you'' is downright pathetic, no offense here saying it as it is. This notion that desi parents are dhoodh ke dhulay huay is laughable. While our family bonds are much stronger its not always the case. One of my old best friends married a girl, because his family pretty much made him with the same threats they made against you, their marriage is pretty much awful, both of them have a terrible relationship and its affecting their kids now and will do for the rest of their lives. His parents have passed away since but he is the one left to suffer, along with his wife and two kids. What you don't want to do is marry someone who you don't like, ruin your marriage, ruin your kids' lives and destroy your future relationships.

Equally I am not saying say goodbye to them and that's it. I can't believe I am saying this but [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]'s last line is correct too. Maybe give it a go, you don't marry someone instantly in arranged marriage either. There is a good few months of ''getting to know them'' period, so who knows you may find someone you like. Unless they are forcing you to marry a religious girl.

Look, odds of you finding an atheist girl are slim in our country so from your end you may have to be a bit flexible too.
 
None of the options.

Be a MAN and fess up to being an Atheist. It was your choice right? Don't blame your family for leaving you, it was your choice to be an Atheist. In fact your family are trying to make ends meet by the offering.

Frankly speaking, arrange marriage has sod all to being religious.
 
Pakpak said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Option B. The fact that from their POV its their way or the highway pretty much says it all when it comes to desi family blackmailing tactics. If it was something which equally affected them then their blackmailing would make sense. But as it is you're the one marrying someone, not them, the level of blackmailing from their behalf in terms of ''we will disown you'' is downright pathetic, no offense here saying it as it is. This notion that desi parents are dhoodh ke dhulay huay is laughable. While our family bonds are much stronger its not always the case. One of my old best friends married a girl, because his family pretty much made him with the same threats they made against you, their marriage is pretty much awful, both of them have a terrible relationship and its affecting their kids now and will do for the rest of their lives. His parents have passed away since but he is the one left to suffer, along with his wife and two kids. What you don't want to do is marry someone who you don't like, ruin your marriage, ruin your kids' lives and destroy your future relationships.

Equally I am not saying say goodbye to them and that's it. I can't believe I am saying this but [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]'s last line is correct too. Maybe give it a go, you don't marry someone instantly in arranged marriage either. There is a good few months of ''getting to know them'' period, so who knows you may find someone you like. Unless they are forcing you to marry a religious girl.

Look, odds of you finding an atheist girl are slim in our country so from your end you may have to be a bit flexible too.
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Not even an atheist is necessarily required if partner does not shove their religion down your throat and respect your beliefs. My wife is Christian Orthodox and my sisters Husband is also a Christian, albeit not so much so. I do celebrate Easter, Christmas etc with her family and go with her to light a candle in the Church on Easter but that is because I wish to do so. Nobody obliges me. Also none these occasions are mostly to gather for food and drinks and nobody looks at me differently or try to convert me.

She on the other hand whenever is with my family and relatives, everyone tries her to show how great Islam is and how she's missing out. Some of the elderly women even in the family even have given her and my brother in law a "Muslim" name and insist on calling them that which I find really degrading and disrespectful and have called them on it but she said to let it be as she doesn't mind. Our daughter also takes part in the celebrations or traditions but that's about it. We agreed that neither of us will force our religious beliefs on her and that she can make up her own mind.
 
DeadBall said:
Not even an atheist is necessarily required if partner does not shove their religion down your throat and respect your beliefs. My wife is Christian Orthodox and my sisters Husband is also a Christian, albeit not so much so. I do celebrate Easter, Christmas etc with her family and go with her to light a candle in the Church on Easter but that is because I wish to do so. Nobody obliges me. Also none these occasions are mostly to gather for food and drinks and nobody looks at me differently or try to convert me.

She on the other hand whenever is with my family and relatives, everyone tries her to show how great Islam is and how she's missing out. Some of the elderly women even in the family even have given her and my brother in law a "Muslim" name and insist on calling them that which I find really degrading and disrespectful and have called them on it but she said to let it be as she doesn't mind. Our daughter also takes part in the celebrations or traditions but that's about it. We agreed that neither of us will force our religious beliefs on her and that she can make up her own mind.
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Pretty much spot on.
 
Why would you get married if you are an atheist?

If I were you, I would do everything possible not to lose your family, nothing, absolutely nothing could replace them, no partner, no monetary achievement. But at the same time it doesn't mean that you should forget about your belief and marry someone that you would never want to.

It is a tough situation but figure out a way where you would not lose your mom and father.
 
Your mom, a Pakistani women living in Pakistan, is supposedly okay with you being an atheist. I dont understand how anything else could be too hard to manage after that.

Stop reading people's mind! Stop playing chess in your head! Stop looking for ulterior motives.

I would have a one on one with mom without the sister and tell her exactly what I feel about marriage and why I can't be forced into marriage. While doing this I would hug her and try to calm her and tell her that I would always be there for her as a son. I would always keep her best interests in mind. I would tell her what kind of a wife I want and why I want those qualities. And if she finds someone who meets my criteria she should feel free to introduce her to me. I would tell her my immediate future plans and explain why a marriage currently doesn't fit in those plans. I would ensure her that if I were to ever marry I will introduce the bride to her and the bride would know to love and respect my mom.

You never tell us what your views on marriage are or how you plan to meet your life partner. Have you ever tried looking for a partner on your own? Are you ready for the challenges it comes with?

I would always keep my door open for family no matter the disputes or whether they shut the door on me first. Blood is thicker than water after all.

It is odd that you are faced with such complex life problems and an internet forum is where you try to find help. It tells me you have deeper issues that need resolving like a lack of trustworthy friends around you.
 
Sirris said:
Your mom, a Pakistani women living in Pakistan, is supposedly okay with you being an atheist. I dont understand how anything else could be too hard to manage after that.

Stop reading people's mind! Stop playing chess in your head! Stop looking for ulterior motives.

I would have a one on one with mom without the sister and tell her exactly what I feel about marriage and why I can't be forced into marriage. While doing this I would hug her and try to calm her and tell her that I would always be there for her as a son. I would always keep her best interests in mind. I would tell her what kind of a wife I want and why I want those qualities. And if she finds someone who meets my criteria she should feel free to introduce her to me. I would tell her my immediate future plans and explain why a marriage currently doesn't fit in those plans. I would ensure her that if I were to ever marry I will introduce the bride to her and the bride would know to love and respect my mom.

You never tell us what your views on marriage are or how you plan to meet your life partner. Have you ever tried looking for a partner on your own? Are you ready for the challenges it comes with?

I would always keep my door open for family no matter the disputes or whether they shut the door on me first. Blood is thicker than water after all.

It is odd that you are faced with such complex life problems and an internet forum is where you try to find help. It tells me you have deeper issues that need resolving like a lack of trustworthy friends around you.
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Not really, some people ask for advise online as sometimes friends in real life are too biased in your favor to give you actual good advise. Or for people its just the anonymity and the unbiasedness that comes from viewing advise in this thread (barring a couple of posters who attacked him). Eg I love my best friends but I'd never ask them for any kind of marital advise. For me that stuff is out of bounds. Maybe he has his own boundaries, who knows? I mean you could be right too but there are many reasons why people come online for advise.
 
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Pakpak said:
Not really, some people ask for advise online as sometimes friends in real life are too biased in your favor to give you actual good advise. Or for people its just the anonymity and the unbiasedness that comes from viewing advise in this thread (barring a couple of posters who attacked him). Eg I love my best friends but I'd never ask them for any kind of marital advise. For me that stuff is out of bounds. Maybe he has his own boundaries, who knows? I mean you could be right too but there are many reasons why people come online for advise.
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Most of the time serious online advise is bad because you have no clue about the personality and characteristics the anonymous person you are talking to has. Even though DW44 wrote a lengthy post about what happened and when it happened, we can't know what his mannerism are, how his relationship has been with his mom and sister, how he comes across as a person.

When it comes to serious complex life issues the little details matter the most.

Things don't happen in a vacuum. Everything is interlinked. The issue he is faced with right now is linked with his past experiences and encounter with his family members.

These are just words on a screen and they could belong to anybody. There is no person behind these words. You are reading and talking to words on a screen. Having to take serious life changing advice from words on a screen from random anonymous sources is a failure to begin with. The ship was doomed to sink before it could even set sail.

The reason why Internet forums, reddit, YouTube comments and social media is popular is because people for the most part have lost the ability to make deep, real and life-long connection with others in their life. The word "friend" has lost its meaning. Now everyone you high-five, play video games and take classes with is a friend. It's a global phenomena.
 
Sirris said:
Most of the time serious online advise is bad because you have no clue about the personality and characteristics the anonymous person you are talking to has. Even though DW44 wrote a lengthy post about what happened and when it happened, we can't know what his mannerism are, how his relationship has been with his mom and sister, how he comes across as a person.

When it comes to serious complex life issues the little details matter the most.

Things don't happen in a vacuum. Everything is interlinked. The issue he is faced with right now is linked with his past experiences and encounter with his family members.

These are just words on a screen and they could belong to anybody. There is no person behind these words. You are reading and talking to words on a screen. Having to take serious life changing advice from words on a screen from random anonymous sources is a failure to begin with. The ship was doomed to sink before it could even set sail.

The reason why Internet forums, reddit, YouTube comments and social media is popular is because people for the most part have lost the ability to make deep, real and life-long connection with others in their life. The word "friend" has lost its meaning. Now everyone you high-five, play video games and take classes with is a friend. It's a global phenomena.
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This is your view, someone reading the replies in this thread may find some help in a reply, even if one line. But all in all you make fair points, minus your last paragraph. For me someone being a best or close friend is a big thing, any person in real life who I have called a close friend I can count on my one hand. So no, it hasn't lost its meaning.
 
Marriage is all about compromise. You won't get most of the things that you expected. You might have to compromise on certain issues right from the start, as finding a match. Even in the case of love marriage , compromises and adjustments might be needed for a successful marriage.

Arrange marriage does not mean that it is against your wishes, the only difference is that in this case you are not very familiar with your partner. People are often engaged for weeks and months in case of arrange marriages too. Furthermore, you can have a pretty good idea about a person if you know a little about two things: his/her education and close friends/family.

Anyways, if you are a man and want someone very badly then there is nothing to stop you. Even moderately educated families will reconcile with you in the end if you are male. But I am afraid a woman marrying against their parent's wishes is still considered a crime in every segment of society.
 
KingKhanWC said:
We dont agree on much but I genuniely hope you find a way to maintain close relationships with your family esp your mother and also find happiness in your personal life.

There are plenty of girls who are Muslim but dont practice or a very religious, find one of those. Instead of being selifsh and always wanting your own way because of your own beliefs, comprimise. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't ,its not the end of the world for you or the girl. At least your family will know you tried and wont ask you again the next time. You can replace your wife but you cannot replace your mother, no belief or woman is worth hurting a mother or losing her.
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Mamoon said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

You are young and hot-blooded. As a result, you take excessive pride in your opinions and beliefs, and your capacity to think for yourself unlike your family members.

Hence, leaving your family for you believe does not seem like the end of the world to you.

However, time will come in your life when you will badly, badly regret your choice. No belief and opinion is worth losing your family and especially your mother. Right now, you might think that I am talking crap, but a day will come when my words might ring in your ears.

You might find a woman who will share the same beliefs as you, you might settle down with her and have a family. If and when you have kids, you will start regretting the choices that you have made. Even if you don’t have kids or don’t settle down with someone, you will still badly regret your decision at some point in time. Mark my words. You may not believe them now but you will believe them one day, and I hope it won’t be too late.

There are only two people in this world who will love you unconditionally, and they are your parents. Not your spouse, not your siblings, not your friends etc. Only your parents, and they are worth a hell of a lot more than your beliefs and opinions. It is something you will appreciate when they will not be around anymore.

I do not want to sound sentimental, but I implore you to ignore everyone who told you to go for option B. We do not know each other and probably never will, but I am rattled and disturbed with what I have read, and I seriously hope you are not contemplating leaving your family.

You have two choices: value your freedom now and live with your decision for the rest of your days, or make a sacrifice for your parents now, which might seem very hard, but it will be a decision that you will one day take pride in as your life goes by.

Also, do not assume that just because your arranged marriage wife will think differently does not mean that you will not be compatible. That is the beauty of arranged marriage, it often brings together two people who could not be any different, but they still manage to find harmony and love.

Nonetheless, if you have already made your decision, I wish you luck, but I do hope that what I said will have some impact on you. Perhaps not now, but surely one day.
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These views give a good divergent point.

DW can also give his own pre condition to the family. He can marry but not necessarily to that one particular girl.
There could also be a possibility of a brief sit down with the potential candidate, at least on phone/internet. The parties can get to know each other before things take a more formal shape.
 
You don't need a religion to tell you that your mom is the most important person in your life. I fully agree with what [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] said.

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Why not look for a middle ground, tell your folks "ok I'll talk to the girls you suggest" and then when you speak to the girls let them know of your viewpoints and if they are the right person they will be willing to accept them and compromise. Its not the 60s or 70s where you will meet your wife on the day of the wedding. Heck both sets of families now a days prefer that the guy and girl "see eachother" for a year to develop understanding.


I'll give you example from my own household, my mum is a paanch waqt ki nimazi very deeni lady (although she doesn't do hijaab etc) and she has always been very religious. My father on the other hand is supremely agnostic, he still believes in a higher power but does not see himself within the fold of Islam since he does not agree with many of the reasonings presented in Islam (both his parents suffering immensely from cancer before passing might have something to do with it). My father never wants to go to the milaads that are an annual event in our greater family but he is forced to go just because it will look bad - but he is the one guy sitting at the end having a laugh at what the maulvis are saying. Very embarrassing for us as kids lol. The kids turned out to be somewhere in the middle between the two. This huge gulf between my parents' belief system didn't prevent them from providing for and nourishing four successful kids Alhumdulilah and having a successful marriage for 30+ years and counting.


We are just anonymous posters over the internet, and I wouldn't recommend giving alot of importance to what we say but do keep in mind that no principle whether it is Athiesm/Islam or otherwise is important enough in my opinion to cut off from your own mother.
 
Don't be so stubborn. Take care of your mother and give it a try. It might work like in many of our cases. Marriage is not a doom, it's all about adjustment's, caring and sharing.

I don't know how it's in Pakistan but here in our household in India, there is a gap of 6months-1yr between formal engagement and nikaah. You will have a better understanding of eachother before getting hitched together. If it doesn't work, opt out from it. If the fiancee is a working woman, the divorce will not destroy her and she will get on with her life. You are helping her by letting her free. This is 100times better than cutting ties with your mother/family.

And who knows whether your fiancee likes all your bad habits or not...so don't worry about these things. Give it a try.
 
Pakpak said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Option B. The fact that from their POV its their way or the highway pretty much says it all when it comes to desi family blackmailing tactics. If it was something which equally affected them then their blackmailing would make sense. But as it is you're the one marrying someone, not them, the level of blackmailing from their behalf in terms of ''we will disown you'' is downright pathetic, no offense here saying it as it is. This notion that desi parents are dhoodh ke dhulay huay is laughable. While our family bonds are much stronger its not always the case. One of my old best friends married a girl, because his family pretty much made him with the same threats they made against you, their marriage is pretty much awful, both of them have a terrible relationship and its affecting their kids now and will do for the rest of their lives. His parents have passed away since but he is the one left to suffer, along with his wife and two kids. What you don't want to do is marry someone who you don't like, ruin your marriage, ruin your kids' lives and destroy your future relationships.

Equally I am not saying say goodbye to them and that's it. I can't believe I am saying this but [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]'s last line is correct too. Maybe give it a go, you don't marry someone instantly in arranged marriage either. There is a good few months of ''getting to know them'' period, so who knows you may find someone you like. Unless they are forcing you to marry a religious girl.

Look, odds of you finding an atheist girl are slim in our country so from your end you may have to be a bit flexible too.
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He's moving to Australia in a year I believe, there should be a far bigger choice of compatible partners there, seems pretty short sighted to marry someone who probably doesn't share your values or beliefs from Pakistan when they stand for everything you hate in society. I just don't agree with those who think pleasing your parents has to come first and the girl who is going to be your wife is some afterthought.
 
Find liberal Muslim [modern] that is not practicing Muslim. It is win-win scenario. Muslim-card for your family and less religious for you. GOD has created pair specifically for individual. I understand you are atheist. Since it is coming from former atheist, it is best to find liberal Muslim that is not practicing Muslim.

I know you are probably not ready for marriage but for the sake of your Mother, you will regret it if you don't even if you resent them for the rest of your life if you agree to the coerced marriage. Before it comes to that, find liberal Muslim [not practicing Muslim] immediately and get marriage before leaving to Pakistan.

Once you are married, then the argument is over. Make sure you find the girl that you can really trust. It is your future life that hangs in balance. Normally, family are good in this kind of matter which concentrates on the long term analyzing for the suitable partner, but since you are given deadline while looking flexibility in your marriage life, i suggest to find the middle ground that pleases neither you nor your family.

Middle ground = liberal Muslim [not practicing Muslim]. Muslim-card for your family and less suffocating for you as well. Win-win for all. This is best i can think off. At the end, ALLAH knows best. :)
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
He's moving to Australia in a year I believe, there should be a far bigger choice of compatible partners there, seems pretty short sighted to marry someone who probably doesn't share your values or beliefs from Pakistan when they stand for everything you hate in society. I just don't agree with those who think pleasing your parents has to come first and the girl who is going to be your wife is some afterthought.
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It's part of who we are Cap. Our culture puts parents on the highest pedastal and we are supposed to please and look after them when they grow old . Now I don't wanna go into the merits or demerits of this system, but the fact remains that parents esp mothers in Desi culture are given a special importance. Personally I would never take any step or do something which hurts my mom in a major way. That's just how it is.
 
Are there no liberal women in Pakistan? I mean there has to be in big cities such as Karachi and Lahore. You can both be a liberal and somewhat religious at the same time. This should solve the problem.
 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Most of the people have touched the point of religion here so now forget the religion factor for a minute.

What are your views on the cultural and lifestyle factors? I am assuming you have spent most of your life in Pakistan and the cultural norms have been somewhat internalized by you. If you choose a woman who is not a muslim and is from a different culture eg. A western girl, would you be able to overcome the cultural and lifestyle barriers? Its not just about the world view inside your mind always. The way we live, act, dress up, talk, our openness or closeness in interacting with friends are huge factors as well. Its highly likely that a non-muslim or non-desi or any kind of non-conservative woman would have a lifestyle completely distinct to what you have been brought up in while living in Pakistan or India. Now mind you, it is one thing to think in your head that you wouldnt mind any of these difference but i assure you from experience, its a completely different beast when you are actually in a real situation.

If you are 100% sure that these factors dont mean much to you, then go ahead with option B because your Mom will not cut off ties with you for it if she didnt cut off ties with you when she came to know that you are an athiest.
 
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TM Riddle said:
Are there no liberal women in Pakistan? I mean there has to be in big cities such as Karachi and Lahore. You can both be a liberal and somewhat religious at the same time. This should solve the problem.
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There are absolutely tons of liberal women in Pakistan, they wouldn't be that much different to desis living in the UK. Nominally Muslim but not practising in the fundamentalist sense. So these would be looked down on by pristine Muslims who do all the prayers, attend Jummah, go to Hajj etc. But from my experience, even those who are liberal Muslims usually want to bring their kids up Muslim. That would probably not be a problem for a liberal husband, but DW44 is an avid opponent of Islam so I can't see how that would work. I think the best bet would be to go with someone like minded or a non-Muslim for a partner, especially considering he won't be living in Pakistan anyway.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
There are absolutely tons of liberal women in Pakistan, they wouldn't be that much different to desis living in the UK. Nominally Muslim but not practising in the fundamentalist sense. So these would be looked down on by pristine Muslims who do all the prayers, attend Jummah, go to Hajj etc. But from my experience, even those who are liberal Muslims usually want to bring their kids up Muslim. That would probably not be a problem for a liberal husband, but DW44 is an avid opponent of Islam so I can't see how that would work. I think the best bet would be to go with someone like minded or a non-Muslim for a partner, especially considering he won't be living in Pakistan anyway.
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That won't help. He is not marriage material but GOD knows best.

Given his rigid stance on faith suggests he is anything but flexible in life. In marriage, you need to be flexible which often boils down to compromise to make the marriage work. What he needs is puppet, not conservative nor liberal. A puppet that he can mold into his thinking. In short, his way or highway.
 
TM Riddle said:
Are there no liberal women in Pakistan? I mean there has to be in big cities such as Karachi and Lahore. You can both be a liberal and somewhat religious at the same time. This should solve the problem.
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Quite a lot in my experiences.

But being liberal doesn't mean being an atheist and that's where the problem is here.

Most liberal or secular people are Muslims only nominally here. They don't pray or fast and drink liberally. But they maintain atleast official Muslim status and more importantly want to. Obviously you don't know whether they have any eemaan etc but atleast they are culturally Muslims in a way. DW44 wants totally renunciation of the faith. There are thar as well obviously but it's not like they are shouting on top of rooftops to meet with like minded people
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] - on this note I remember one coming across an atheist/agnostic online community for Karachi who met etc as well. You been exposed to any of this.

As for advice. Best option is to try to delay the marriage. Threats are likely empty threats. Most certainly don't cave into their demands f marriage. Most people who are arranged marriaged successfully are either tied down by family bonds/threats/tradition or atleast have some basic world view on the same page. Both are not true in your case.

If you mother knows that you are atheist and lives with that knowledge (don't expect any firecrackers) then she is probably more understanding and chill than 90% mothers in this country so you are dealing with a reasonable woman to begin with. No need to cut off relations with her
 
kaayal said:
Don't be so stubborn. Take care of your mother and give it a try. It might work like in many of our cases. Marriage is not a doom, it's all about adjustment's, caring and sharing.

I don't know how it's in Pakistan but here in our household in India, there is a gap of 6months-1yr between formal engagement and nikaah. You will have a better understanding of eachother before getting hitched together. If it doesn't work, opt out from it. If the fiancee is a working woman, the divorce will not destroy her and she will get on with her life. You are helping her by letting her free. This is 100times better than cutting ties with your mother/family.

And who knows whether your fiancee likes all your bad habits or not...so don't worry about these things. Give it a try.
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Who is being stubborn here the person making his life decisions or the parents wanting to make that decision?

In that logic maybe we should make our parents atheists but no freedom to make their own decisions are given by children to their parents.
 
People should marry based on their own decisions, if they decide they want to go for arrange marriage fine, if love fine, don't see why parents get to say which woman/man to choose for their children, at best they should give their advice and view.
 
Are your sister(s) married? People living in Pakistan highly prefer their daughters getting married first, guys come later. I will be surprised if they are letting you marry first.

It’s your life your choice. Parents will get you married and step away when the party will be over. You will have to live with consequences. My close friend got into an arranged marriage in 2011 and it turned out to be a disaster for him. Best way is to get married where both parties feel comfortable. You will have to let the girl know all of your requirements and to find an atheist will be extremely difficult in Pakistan or with a similiar mindset. Religion rules there. Have a discussion with your family and give them your options and listen to them as well. Arrange or love is a gamble no matter what. Don’t have kids for 6 months to a year and see if you two get along.

The ** I always hear is when people say sacrifice for your parents when it comes to the most important phase of your life - why?Parents can guide you and present you their options but it totally should be left upto you to decide in the end.

I’ve been through this dilemma last year so I’m talking with experience. My gf and I like each other and have been together for almost three years now. I went to Pakistan last year and requested my father to go to their home and ask for her rishta - he refused. I was there for a month and I begged him eveyday and literally touched his feet to no avail. On my last day he agreed and went to her home and messed up the whole thing with his rude behaviour. Girl’s family got mad and felt disrespected. Her father said there’s no way in hell she will marry me now but I still have a chance if my dad’s behaviour improves as my mother’s side is very close to her family so they can talk them out. I was never close to my dad to begin with so that made my life difficult as well. Mom passed away 5 years ago or else this would have been a walk in the park. I don’t know why desi parents make this process so hard for their kids. Parents should sacrifice as well and shouldn’t expect their kids to do all the work.

When adults start talking about marriage let them take their own decisions - they are not kids anymore.
 
My chances are slim if I tie a knot with my gf considering the hole I’m in thanks to my own father. It will be nothing sort of a miracle if we get together. I’ve left this to my luck now and time will tell what’s going to happen. I will try again this year and hopefully it will work out.
 
@UP What are parents sacrificing? You making your life decision is considered them making a sacrifice, this mentality of Desis I can never understand, respect has nothing to do with obedience.
 
UP said:
My chances are slim if I tie a knot with my gf considering the hole I’m in thanks to my own father. It will be nothing sort of a miracle if we get together. I’ve left this to my luck now and time will tell what’s going to happen. I will try again this year and hopefully it will work out.
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Are you and your gf financially reliant on the parents? Even if you aren't, I see that she sadly has no say in the matter.
 
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JaDed said:
@UP What are parents sacrificing? You making your life decision is considered them making a sacrifice, this mentality of Desis I can never understand, respect has nothing to do with obedience.
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It’s a common desi mindset that you have to respect your elders/parents which is not a bad thing at all but it is an obsession. Parents can’t sacrifice their power, ego and their status. Desi parents find hard to deal with when confronted. They are often left wondering what the hell to do so they resort to threats and emotional blackmailing. In Islam its a common say that you have to shut your mouth up and listen to your parents no matter what - and that plays a big role in parents/kids relationship and in society as a whole . As you can see here, people have advised the poster to shut the heck up and listen to your mom or else he will regret his decision. Tell me what’s the guarantee that he will be happy with the girl his mom will pick?

As with my dad it’s a matter of pride, ego and status - my family back there has done well for themselves. It hurts him when he is forced to go to my gf’s home since she is not rich.

It’s a game of power according to me.
 
DeadBall said:
Are you and your gf financially reliant on the parents? Even if you aren't, I see that she sadly has no say in the matter.
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I don’t rely on my father’s finances. Whereas, my gf has absolutely no say in her marriage. It’s a typical Pakistani household where girls have no say unfortunately.
 
Slog said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] - on this note I remember one coming across an atheist/agnostic online community for Karachi who met etc as well. You been exposed to any of this.

As for advice. Best option is to try to delay the marriage. Threats are likely empty threats. Most certainly don't cave into their demands f marriage. Most people who are arranged marriaged successfully are either tied down by family bonds/threats/tradition or atleast have some basic world view on the same page. Both are not true in your case.


If you mother knows that you are atheist and lives with that knowledge (don't expect any firecrackers) then she is probably more understanding and chill than 90% mothers in this country so you are dealing with a reasonable woman to begin with. No need to cut off relations with her
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Those communities are small though. The biggest one, which covers all of Pakistan has ~300 members, of which less than 100 are women. Met my current SO there (not a serious relationship, with zero desire for marriage on either party's part). There used to be a bigger group (~1k) but it was exposed so no one uses it anymore.

I've been delaying for a while and have no qualms continuing to do so since I have no desire to marry right now anyway. The impetus for that is coming exclusively from the family - as a unit, not any particular individual - and I would much rather get my life in order first considering I'll be ~30 when I leave Pakistan and pretty much have to rebuild my career from scratch due to the worthlessness of Pakistani work experience, even the high end kind.

Madplayer said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Most of the people have touched the point of religion here so now forget the religion factor for a minute.

What are your views on the cultural and lifestyle factors? I am assuming you have spent most of your life in Pakistan and the cultural norms have been somewhat internalized by you. If you choose a woman who is not a muslim and is from a different culture eg. A western girl, would you be able to overcome the cultural and lifestyle barriers? Its not just about the world view inside your mind always. The way we live, act, dress up, talk, our openness or closeness in interacting with friends are huge factors as well. Its highly likely that a non-muslim or non-desi or any kind of non-conservative woman would have a lifestyle completely distinct to what you have been brought up in while living in Pakistan or India. Now mind you, it is one thing to think in your head that you wouldnt mind any of these difference but i assure you from experience, its a completely different beast when you are actually in a real situation.
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Not a fan of the culture which is one of the bigger factors behind me rebelling. While I have grown up in Pakistan, surrounded by Pakistani culture, it would not be too much of a leap to assume that personally, I'd have more in common culturally with someone from a liberal, secular environment than I would with someone from Pakistan given my lack of regard for our culture. I won't, for instance, be OK with mine/my spouse's uncles/aunts/other distant relatives asking us when they're getting "good news" (code for when are you having a kid?), or the idea of being married to an entire family, or with getting arrange married in general. This theme extends to the rest of the culture, which is heavily influenced by religion so, as you're probably aware, I treat our culture and religion as sort of a package deal - religion shapes culture, and culture keeps the role of religion in society alive.

In my experience, I'm more at ease in relationships with people from relatively open cultures compared to those from conservative ones (India, Pakistan etc, not just Pakistan). For one, my personal space needs are astronomical, even by western standards, so a culture like ours that has no concept of personal space is not for me, nor is a culture where the dominant social unit is the family rather than the individual. All things considered, there's very little about the culture I'm keen to hold on to and in my limited experience, it's easier to be with someone from a different culture.
 
DW44 said:
Those communities are small though. The biggest one, which covers all of Pakistan has ~300 members, of which less than 100 are women. Met my current SO there (not a serious relationship, with zero desire for marriage on either party's part). There used to be a bigger group (~1k) but it was exposed so no one uses it anymore.

I've been delaying for a while and have no qualms continuing to do so since I have no desire to marry right now anyway. The impetus for that is coming exclusively from the family - as a unit, not any particular individual - and I would much rather get my life in order first considering I'll be ~30 when I leave Pakistan and pretty much have to rebuild my career from scratch due to the worthlessness of Pakistani work experience, even the high end kind.


Not a fan of the culture which is one of the bigger factors behind me rebelling. While I have grown up in Pakistan, surrounded by Pakistani culture, it would not be too much of a leap to assume that personally, I'd have more in common culturally with someone from a liberal, secular environment than I would with someone from Pakistan given my lack of regard for our culture. I won't, for instance, be OK with mine/my spouse's uncles/aunts/other distant relatives asking us when they're getting "good news" (code for when are you having a kid?), or the idea of being married to an entire family, or with getting arrange married in general. This theme extends to the rest of the culture, which is heavily influenced by religion so, as you're probably aware, I treat our culture and religion as sort of a package deal - religion shapes culture, and culture keeps the role of religion in society alive.

In my experience, I'm more at ease in relationships with people from relatively open cultures compared to those from conservative ones (India, Pakistan etc, not just Pakistan). For one, my personal space needs are astronomical, even by western standards, so a culture like ours that has no concept of personal space is not for me, nor is a culture where the dominant social unit is the family rather than the individual. All things considered, there's very little about the culture I'm keen to hold on to and in my limited experience, it's easier to be with someone from a different culture.
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Seems to me you are still tied to your Pakistani culture than you realise, if you were living in a western country, the idea that you could be contemplating a marriage to a stranger you had no connection with to please parents or family would be thought of as absurd. I would definitely fob it off and head abroad first, see how you feel after living in Australia for a couple of years and take it from there.
 
Here's a humorous advert about a growing son and his mum which might give you an idea of the differences in outlook between west and east. It's British, but Aussie humour is pretty similar.


 
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

As someone pointed out, with your high and mighty attitude, should you even get married with this mindset. We are living in 2018, you will be hard pressed to find anyone be it religious/non religious/atheist willing put up with someone like that. No marriage is 1000 times better than a bad marriage.

I would advise you to shine a mirror on your own personality. Marriage is a lot of give and take and yes you maybe aware of that but unless you have a receptive personality for it, you will struggle to cope.

There is only one option for you that doesn't lead to you being a hypocrite + unhappy and that is option B. With option B, you will still be unhappy because you will be in conflict with your family but atleast you stay true to yourself and you do not ruin someone else's life in the process. I would say to mum that look I am a "kafir" as she put it and I am not going to change my mind why would you want a Muslim to marry me, how you can you carry that on your conscious

You should marry an atheist that fits your personality profile. Marrying an atheist wouldn't automatically mean you would have a successful marriage, you still have to work at it and until you live with someone, you truly do not really know them.

Also, you are young now and in good mental and physical health which may give you false bravado that you do not need anyone else from your family going forward. This will not be the case all the time. Life is full of surprises and can turn for good and bad in an instant. Your family will be the only ones that will come to your side when you truly need it. I say this because one of my wife's uncle (now in his early 60s) is an atheist, with a similar personality of my way or highway... he married a German lady, had two kids but divorced because ultimately he was bit of a d head who nobody could live with. She was very liked in the family and totally understood her reason for leaving him..... anyway last few years for some inexplicable reason he isolated himself from everyone else in family to the point we all lost contact with him for last three or four years, recently we found out (we had to find him to tell him that his mother had passed away) that he was all alone and ill in hospital bear in mind he has two kids and 5 or 6 grown up grand kids. Anyway, he is now looked after by the very family he broke away from, got his inheritance that his mother had left for him whereas his own kids don't give two hoots about him...

I guess what I am trying to say is that be humble and a decent and likeable human being, that should be your priority right now, not marriage. As this is the only way you will be able to stay true to your beliefs, have a happy marriage and maintain a relationship with your family.
 
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DW44 said:
Those communities are small though. The biggest one, which covers all of Pakistan has ~300 members, of which less than 100 are women. Met my current SO there (not a serious relationship, with zero desire for marriage on either party's part). There used to be a bigger group (~1k) but it was exposed so no one uses it anymore.

I've been delaying for a while and have no qualms continuing to do so since I have no desire to marry right now anyway. The impetus for that is coming exclusively from the family - as a unit, not any particular individual - and I would much rather get my life in order first considering I'll be ~30 when I leave Pakistan and pretty much have to rebuild my career from scratch due to the worthlessness of Pakistani work experience, even the high end kind.


Not a fan of the culture which is one of the bigger factors behind me rebelling. While I have grown up in Pakistan, surrounded by Pakistani culture, it would not be too much of a leap to assume that personally, I'd have more in common culturally with someone from a liberal, secular environment than I would with someone from Pakistan given my lack of regard for our culture. I won't, for instance, be OK with mine/my spouse's uncles/aunts/other distant relatives asking us when they're getting "good news" (code for when are you having a kid?), or the idea of being married to an entire family, or with getting arrange married in general. This theme extends to the rest of the culture, which is heavily influenced by religion so, as you're probably aware, I treat our culture and religion as sort of a package deal - religion shapes culture, and culture keeps the role of religion in society alive.

In my experience, I'm more at ease in relationships with people from relatively open cultures compared to those from conservative ones (India, Pakistan etc, not just Pakistan). For one, my personal space needs are astronomical, even by western standards, so a culture like ours that has no concept of personal space is not for me, nor is a culture where the dominant social unit is the family rather than the individual. All things considered, there's very little about the culture I'm keen to hold on to and in my limited experience, it's easier to be with someone from a different culture.
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Actually culture and religion are often inter-mixed in our part of the world but they have different roles. Religion and culture influence each other over a period of time but they dont create each other. You might dislike a religion for some of its tenets like intolerance etc., however you might not be able to overcome some of the cultural barriers like the drinking or smoking habits of the "open society" woman, her wearing a bikini when at a beach, much more free relationship with friends than what you are used to seeing. I am not judging any of these qualities, just trying to help you understand that these are the cultural differences which you might have to face.

Also an open society woman would hardly ever listen to you. So dont have any unrealistic expectations from them. You HAVE TO adjust. No matter who you marry. It all depends on who you are as a person.
 
Madplayer said:
Actually culture and religion are often inter-mixed in our part of the world but they have different roles. Religion and culture influence each other over a period of time but they dont create each other. You might dislike a religion for some of its tenets like intolerance etc., however you might not be able to overcome some of the cultural barriers like the drinking or smoking habits of the "open society" woman, her wearing a bikini when at a beach, much more free relationship with friends than what you are used to seeing. I am not judging any of these qualities, just trying to help you understand that these are the cultural differences which you might have to face.
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Completely OK with me.

Also an open society woman would hardly ever listen to you. So dont have any unrealistic expectations from them. You HAVE TO adjust. No matter who you marry. It all depends on who you are as a person.
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Card carrying feminist here. Women's rights is easily one of my top 3 causes. Don't believe women should 'listen' to anyone. Don't have any unrealistic expectations and even if I marry a Pakistani, I would encourage her to do all the things you're suggesting I might have issues with.
 
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DW44 said:
Completely OK with me.



Card carrying feminist here. Women's rights is easily one of my top 3 causes. Don't believe women should 'listen' to anyone. Don't have any unrealistic expectations and even if I marry a Pakistani, I would encourage her to do all the things you're suggesting I might have issues with.
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Have you ever been with women who have done it? Still takes some time adjusting to it given the upbringing.
 
DW44 said:
Completely OK with me.



Card carrying feminist here. Women's rights is easily one of my top 3 causes. Don't believe women should 'listen' to anyone. Don't have any unrealistic expectations and even if I marry a Pakistani, I would encourage her to do all the things you're suggesting I might have issues with.
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Look it seems like you have already made up your mind. You just want validation and general node in agreement for your decision.

There is a difference between being ok with stuff on paper and being ok with stuff when you actually experience them.

You are delusional in your approach to life and despite your almost 30 years of age it seems like there are a lot of life lessons you have yet to learn the hard way.
 
DeadBall said:
Have you ever been with women who have done it? Still takes some time adjusting to it given the upbringing.
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A while ago, but yes.

Sirris said:
Look it seems like you have already made up your mind. You just want validation and general node in agreement for your decision.

There is a difference between being ok with stuff on paper and being ok with stuff when you actually experience them.

You are delusional in your approach to life and despite your almost 30 years of age it seems like there are a lot of life lessons you have yet to learn the hard way.
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Can we skip the running commentary? You're making a lot of assumptions based on incomplete knowledge. I've been posting here 9 years and a lot of posters have a more complete picture - it was their advice I was primarily seeking, not yours.
 
DW44 said:
A while ago, but yes.


Can we skip the running commentary? You're making a lot of assumptions based on incomplete knowledge. I've been posting here 9 years and a lot of posters have a more complete picture - it was their advice I was primarily seeking, not yours.
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Tell your Mom you would marry a girl of her choice with only one pre condition. She should be a fan of Opeth.
I don't think your mother would ever be able to find a pious pakistani girl who also loves death metal.
Problem solved.
 
TM Riddle said:
Tell your Mom you would marry a girl of her choice with only one pre condition. She should be a fan of Opeth.
I don't think your mother would ever be able to find a pious pakistani girl who also loves death metal.
Problem solved.
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LOL that used to be our joke. Told her I'd only marry a girl whose dad traded in certain herbs that are very popular in my part of Pakistan.
 
JaDed said:
Who is being stubborn here the person making his life decisions or the parents wanting to make that decision?

In that logic maybe we should make our parents atheists but no freedom to make their own decisions are given by children to their parents.
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I don't know about you but iam very emotonally attached to my parents and also to my mother in law. Giving respect doesn't mean that we can't take our own decisions. Till now whatever they have given as options for me be it about my career, partner, having kids etc, I made the final decision. Nobody has a say on it except me. That's the truth even if you believe it or not.

But like DW bhai, i can't cut off my relations with my ma and pa just like that. I want to give them comfort as long as i can. Even if that means halting my career to take care of them. The hardships they suffered for educating me and my brothers.....i have seen that through my eyes. I will never let them go.

And I am basically from village in Malappuram and I don't think an urban guy like you will understand these emotions, love and care. So it's better we stop this here.
 
DW44 said:
LOL that used to be our joke. Told her I'd only marry a girl whose dad traded in certain herbs that are very popular in my part of Pakistan.
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You better go to Amsterdam. Even if you don't marry, you will be happy there.:D
 
kaayal said:
You better go to Amsterdam. Even if you don't marry, you will be happy there.:D
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It is one of the many options I'm currently exploring while the major applications in the points system countries are processed, which is a slow process. If I do get a job there, which is not at all unlikely given the skill shortage in my field in the EU, I would take it over the points system countries.

I'd honestly not get married at all for a few more years at the very least. Most of my 20s were wasted in Pakistan. Someone like me spending his 20s in Pakistan of all places is akin to the pope spending his papacy in Amsterdam or Vegas. My family are the ones pushing the marriage agenda. Personally, I have no such desire at the moment and I have a pretty good idea why they're suddenly way more serious about it now that the time for me to be in my natural habitat draws closer.
 
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DW44 said:
It is one of the many options I'm currently exploring while the major applications in the points system countries are processed, which is a slow process. If I do get a job there, which is not at all unlikely given the skill shortage in my field in the EU, I would take it over the points system countries.

I'd honestly not get married at all for a few more years at the very least. Most of my 20s were wasted in Pakistan. Someone like me spending his 20s in Pakistan of all places is akin to the pope spending his papacy in Amsterdam or Vegas. My family are the ones pushing the marriage agenda. Personally, I have no such desire at the moment and I have a pretty good idea why they're suddenly way more serious about it now that the time for me to be in my natural habitat draws closer.
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They are scared of losing you. They don't care whether you are kid or a big boy now. These herb talk and Pope joke will make them panic even more. Just calm her down and make sure to built that trust in them that you will be okay and safe abroad. Then they won't be hellbent on having a daughter-in-law to always have a check on you.

Btw that bolded part was funny lol :))).
 
kaayal said:
They are scared of losing you. They don't care whether you are kid or a big boy now. These herb talk and Pope joke will make them panic even more. Just calm her down and make sure to built that trust in them that you will be okay and safe abroad. Then they won't be hellbent on having a daughter-in-law to always have a check on you.

Btw that bolded part was funny lol :))).
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They really should trust me more considering the amount of time I've spent away from home, both in Pakistan and abroad, over the last 12 years. The herb/pope jokes are just that: jokes. I goof around about that stuff but they should know by now that I can take care of myself and get by reasonably well.
 
DW44 said:
They really should trust me more considering the amount of time I've spent away from home, both in Pakistan and abroad, over the last 12 years. The herb/pope jokes are just that: jokes. I goof around about that stuff but they should know by now that I can take care of myself and get by reasonably well.
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Even if you were away from home, deep inside they always knew you will come back to them one day. But this time I think it's not like that. You are leaving Pakistan forever. Breaking all the ties and setting yourself free...which is a good thing but a bit scary for the desi parents considering your habits.

Sorry if i am assuming a lot but this is the impression that am getting from your post. I think i should stop this now. Hope you get what you wish for. Good luck.:19:
 
Man it would be so awesome if all of a sudden [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] started sporting long henna dyed beard without moustache, wearing those ankle length payjamas and dropping "Alhamdulilah" and "Bismillah" in between the conversations.
The reactions on his mother's face would be priceless :))
 
Mamoon said:
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

You are young and hot-blooded. As a result, you take excessive pride in your opinions and beliefs, and your capacity to think for yourself unlike your family members.

Hence, leaving your family for you believe does not seem like the end of the world to you.

However, time will come in your life when you will badly, badly regret your choice. No belief and opinion is worth losing your family and especially your mother. Right now, you might think that I am talking crap, but a day will come when my words might ring in your ears.

You might find a woman who will share the same beliefs as you, you might settle down with her and have a family. If and when you have kids, you will start regretting the choices that you have made. Even if you don’t have kids or don’t settle down with someone, you will still badly regret your decision at some point in time. Mark my words. You may not believe them now but you will believe them one day, and I hope it won’t be too late.

There are only two people in this world who will love you unconditionally, and they are your parents. Not your spouse, not your siblings, not your friends etc. Only your parents, and they are worth a hell of a lot more than your beliefs and opinions. It is something you will appreciate when they will not be around anymore.

I do not want to sound sentimental, but I implore you to ignore everyone who told you to go for option B. We do not know each other and probably never will, but I am rattled and disturbed with what I have read, and I seriously hope you are not contemplating leaving your family.

You have two choices: value your freedom now and live with your decision for the rest of your days, or make a sacrifice for your parents now, which might seem very hard, but it will be a decision that you will one day take pride in as your life goes by.

Also, do not assume that just because your arranged marriage wife will think differently does not mean that you will not be compatible. That is the beauty of arranged marriage, it often brings together two people who could not be any different, but they still manage to find harmony and love.

Nonetheless, if you have already made your decision, I wish you luck, but I do hope that what I said will have some impact on you. Perhaps not now, but surely one day.
Click to expand...

Well said [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] #respectbruh
 
TM Riddle said:
Man it would be so awesome if all of a sudden [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] started sporting long henna dyed beard without moustache, wearing those ankle length payjamas and dropping "Alhamdulilah" and "Bismillah" in between the conversations.
The reactions on his mother's face would be priceless :))
Click to expand...

They'd pray some shukrana nafals and sacrifice a bakrah for whole neighborhood :yk (That's what I'd do :D )

In all seriousness tho, May the Lord, who sustains everything, guide all of us to the path of the righteous :)
 
kaayal said:
I don't know about you but iam very emotonally attached to my parents and also to my mother in law. Giving respect doesn't mean that we can't take our own decisions. Till now whatever they have given as options for me be it about my career, partner, having kids etc, I made the final decision. Nobody has a say on it except me. That's the truth even if you believe it or not.

But like DW bhai, i can't cut off my relations with my ma and pa just like that. I want to give them comfort as long as i can. Even if that means halting my career to take care of them. The hardships they suffered for educating me and my brothers.....i have seen that through my eyes. I will never let them go.

And I am basically from village in Malappuram and I don't think an urban guy like you will understand these emotions, love and care. So it's better we stop this here.
Click to expand...

Urban guy? That has nothing to do with this, halting career to take care of your parents is nothing wrong and it's kids responsibility to take care of parents, I'm not denying that, but parents can only advice on marriage partners , you cant expect parents to emmotionally blackmail their children to marry someone coz of that society/family says, I can give you multiple examples where this has gone wrong,open the paper you ll find it, your basis of saying everyone should listen to their parents.

According to you to give emmotional comfort to parents we should marry and live how they say, that is incorrect, and you are encouraging that behavior even knowing how things can go wrong.

Also I'm the only child so obviously I'm very emmotionally attached to my parents.
 
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I can never really see myself getting an arranged marriage. Seems like too much of a risk marrying someone who you hardly know.
 
aloo paratha said:
I can never really see myself getting an arranged marriage. Seems like too much of a risk marrying someone who you hardly know.
Click to expand...

aren't you just 14 years old right now lol! Stop thinking about marriage!!
 
Slog said:
aren't you just 14 years old right now lol! Stop thinking about marriage!!
Click to expand...

DeadBall said:
Think he's almost 15 now. Hopefully it isn't another DW444 type situation.
Click to expand...

TM Riddle said:
At his age my biggest worry was going blind because of a certain addictive habit pretty common among teens in that age group.
Click to expand...

You all need to chill:)) marriage is just a reality of most peoples lives, was just giving my opinion.

BTW I'm turning 16 in a couple of months, not 14:shhh:sanga
 
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