Shoaib Akhtar versus Waqar Younis

[hitthestump]

I started watching cricket 1996 onwards and only really got properly hooked from the 99 world cup.

In the above timeline i definitely remember Wasim as an unbelievable bowler but i really can't recall Waqar the same way at all. The 2001 natwest trophy sticks out in my mind as a series in which he dominated, but apart from that nothing sticks in my mind. My most prominent memory of his bowling was mediocre trundling during the 2003 world cup.

Was i simply born too late to have seen peak Waqar?

 

[shahidrazzaq]

Lol Ross Taylor retired Akhtar. Akhtar wasn't express consistently at the end of his career. Waqar played on even after the bashing he received from Jadeja

In reply to you -- Shoaib almost got him out for 3 runs if Kamran doesn't drop him. Now a set batsman well past his fifty at the end of the innings bashing a bowler happens every now and then no? What happened to Shoaib was in his 12th year as a professional, while Waqar got smacked in his 7th.

Moving forward:

Waqar is better overall. I'm an Akhtar stan, but who can definitively say Akhtar was better than Waqar in their primes? Waqar had days where his speed wasn't recorded, but he aspired to be better than Wasim before the injury and was absolutely vicious.

Of qualified bowlers, he has the second best strike rate in Test cricket (Steyn ahead of him) and third best strike in ODIs out of bowlers who've played more than 100 matches (Lee and Saqlain ahead of him). The main argument Akhtar has going for him is that he has arguably bowled against better batsmen in his career, would need to look into this more. Also, Waqar did have Wasim on the other end.

Waqar has the most 5-fers in ODI history, and most innings in which he has taken 4 or more as well.

Waqar is also the only bowler to take a 5-fer in 3 straight matches (1990).

And on two separate occasions, he's taken back to back 5-fers as well (Once in 1990, and 2001 - the famous 7fer against England and 6fer against Australia). While 10 bowlers have accomplished back to back 5fers, only two bowlers have done it on multiple occasions: Waqar and Mustafizur (2015 and 2019).

I watched Shoaib, never got to watch Waqar at his best. But in Pakistan cricket - availability is the best ability. With my bias, I might take Shoaib in a short spell over Waqar, but he'll lose most arguments if you're looking over time.

 

[Savak]

In reply to you -- Shoaib almost got him out for 3 runs if Kamran doesn't drop him. Now a set batsman well past his fifty at the end of the innings bashing a bowler happens every now and then no? What happened to Shoaib was in his 12th year as a professional, while Waqar got smacked in his 7th.

Moving forward:

Waqar is better overall. I'm an Akhtar stan, but who can definitively say Akhtar was better than Waqar in their primes? Waqar had days where his speed wasn't recorded, but he aspired to be better than Wasim before the injury and was absolutely vicious.

Of qualified bowlers, he has the second best strike rate in Test cricket (Steyn ahead of him) and third best strike in ODIs out of bowlers who've played more than 100 matches (Lee and Saqlain ahead of him). The main argument Akhtar has going for him is that he has arguably bowled against better batsmen in his career, would need to look into this more. Also, Waqar did have Wasim on the other end.

Waqar has the most 5-fers in ODI history, and most innings in which he has taken 4 or more as well.

Waqar is also the only bowler to take a 5-fer in 3 straight matches (1990).

And on two separate occasions, he's taken back to back 5-fers as well (Once in 1990, and 2001 - the famous 7fer against England and 6fer against Australia). While 10 bowlers have accomplished back to back 5fers, only two bowlers have done it on multiple occasions: Waqar and Mustafizur (2015 and 2019).

I watched Shoaib, never got to watch Waqar at his best. But in Pakistan cricket - availability is the best ability. With my bias, I might take Shoaib in a short spell over Waqar, but he'll lose most arguments if you're looking over time.

I don't mind people bringing up Waqar's overall number of wickets, fivers, bowling average, longetivity to bump him up over Shoaib.

But people need to acknowledge that in Waqar's peak i.e.

- He was bowling in an era where reverse swing was not a well known art and batsmen were amateurs in dealing with it

- Having quality support bowlers in Wasim, Aqib, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain Mushtaq

- Playing against some **** poor teams at the time i.e New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka

- West Indies in 1990 were on the downside where Haynes, Grenidge were at the end of their careers. England was not a great team, they had lost the ashes many times and the players like Gooch, Lamb, Botham, Gower were at the end of their careers and that England team had players like Hick who were mentally weak bunnies

- He debuted against Australia in 1989 but he looked pedestrian and ineffective in Australian pitches and on that tour in comparison to Wasim who was the bigger hit. That Australian team was not very strong, he got his chance to play against Australia in 1994 where his performances were okay but not blistering.

In comparison in Shoaib's peak from 1998 to 2005

- Shoaib was the main x factor in the team, the likes of Wasim and Waqar were not the same force and were at best support bowlers now which means he was single handedly responsible for running through sides because the other bowlers did not have the same match winning quality.

- Shoaib was operating in an era where now reverse swing was a well known art, where batsmen were well equipped to deal with it

- Shoaib humbled the best batsmen of his era, just look at the amount of times he dismissed them i.e. Ricky Ponting, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, VVS Laxman, Adam Gilchrist, Jacques Kallis, Mathew Hayden just to name a few. In comparison Waqar in his prime did not bowl or have such dominance over such players who will be regarded as all time greats

- Shoaib single handedly contributed towards Pakistan's 2-1 ODI series win against the greatest Australian team in history in Australia in 2002, only people who watched cricket at the time will remember that no one could even imagine or dream of that side being defeated so easily

- The NZ team that Shoaib helped Pakistan win against in 2002-2003 was far superior batting and bowling wise to the NZ team that Waqar feasted on in 1990, 1992, 1993 and 1994. Even then Waqar's record against Martin Crowe was not stellar whereas Shoaib had knocked over the best NZ batsman Stephen Fleming numerous times

- Shoaib only bowled 3 balls to Lara and in one ball he forced him to retire hurt. He also badly dazzed Tendulkar with a nasty bouncer in 2006. I do not recall Waqar in his prime forcing someone of unquestioned quality to retire hurt

In boxing terms, one can make the argument that while Waqar has better overall stats on his record, he has more bums in comparison to Shoaib. Yes Shoaib under achieved given the god gifted potential he had but people need to be kinder to him as well

 

[tyron_woodley]

I don't mind people bringing up Waqar's overall number of wickets, fivers, bowling average, longetivity to bump him up over Shoaib.

But people need to acknowledge that in Waqar's peak i.e.

- He was bowling in an era where reverse swing was not a well known art and batsmen were amateurs in dealing with it

- Having quality support bowlers in Wasim, Aqib, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain Mushtaq

- Playing against some **** poor teams at the time i.e New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka

- West Indies in 1990 were on the downside where Haynes, Grenidge were at the end of their careers. England was not a great team, they had lost the ashes many times and the players like Gooch, Lamb, Botham, Gower were at the end of their careers and that England team had players like Hick who were mentally weak bunnies

- He debuted against Australia in 1989 but he looked pedestrian and ineffective in Australian pitches and on that tour in comparison to Wasim who was the bigger hit. That Australian team was not very strong, he got his chance to play against Australia in 1994 where his performances were okay but not blistering.

In comparison in Shoaib's peak from 1998 to 2005

- Shoaib was the main x factor in the team, the likes of Wasim and Waqar were not the same force and were at best support bowlers now which means he was single handedly responsible for running through sides because the other bowlers did not have the same match winning quality.

- Shoaib was operating in an era where now reverse swing was a well known art, where batsmen were well equipped to deal with it

- Shoaib humbled the best batsmen of his era, just look at the amount of times he dismissed them i.e. Ricky Ponting, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, VVS Laxman, Adam Gilchrist, Jacques Kallis, Mathew Hayden just to name a few. In comparison Waqar in his prime did not bowl or have such dominance over such players who will be regarded as all time greats

- Shoaib single handedly contributed towards Pakistan's 2-1 ODI series win against the greatest Australian team in history in Australia in 2002, only people who watched cricket at the time will remember that no one could even imagine or dream of that side being defeated so easily

- The NZ team that Shoaib helped Pakistan win against in 2002-2003 was far superior batting and bowling wise to the NZ team that Waqar feasted on in 1990, 1992, 1993 and 1994. Even then Waqar's record against Martin Crowe was not stellar whereas Shoaib had knocked over the best NZ batsman Stephen Fleming numerous times

- Shoaib only bowled 3 balls to Lara and in one ball he forced him to retire hurt. He also badly dazzed Tendulkar with a nasty bouncer in 2006. I do not recall Waqar in his prime forcing someone of unquestioned quality to retire hurt

In boxing terms, one can make the argument that while Waqar has better overall stats on his record, he has more bums in comparison to Shoaib. Yes Shoaib under achieved given the god gifted potential he had but people need to be kinder to him as well

best post of this thread by far. shaoib > overrated waqar anyday.

Btw that 2002 win over prime Aussies in a odi series was impressive. I am surprised no one talks about it much on PP.

 

[Hawkeye]

I don't mind people bringing up Waqar's overall number of wickets, fivers, bowling average, longetivity to bump him up over Shoaib.

But people need to acknowledge that in Waqar's peak i.e.

- He was bowling in an era where reverse swing was not a well known art and batsmen were amateurs in dealing with it

- Having quality support bowlers in Wasim, Aqib, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain Mushtaq

- Playing against some **** poor teams at the time i.e New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka

- West Indies in 1990 were on the downside where Haynes, Grenidge were at the end of their careers. England was not a great team, they had lost the ashes many times and the players like Gooch, Lamb, Botham, Gower were at the end of their careers and that England team had players like Hick who were mentally weak bunnies

- He debuted against Australia in 1989 but he looked pedestrian and ineffective in Australian pitches and on that tour in comparison to Wasim who was the bigger hit. That Australian team was not very strong, he got his chance to play against Australia in 1994 where his performances were okay but not blistering.

In comparison in Shoaib's peak from 1998 to 2005

- Shoaib was the main x factor in the team, the likes of Wasim and Waqar were not the same force and were at best support bowlers now which means he was single handedly responsible for running through sides because the other bowlers did not have the same match winning quality.

- Shoaib was operating in an era where now reverse swing was a well known art, where batsmen were well equipped to deal with it

- Shoaib humbled the best batsmen of his era, just look at the amount of times he dismissed them i.e. Ricky Ponting, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, VVS Laxman, Adam Gilchrist, Jacques Kallis, Mathew Hayden just to name a few. In comparison Waqar in his prime did not bowl or have such dominance over such players who will be regarded as all time greats

- Shoaib single handedly contributed towards Pakistan's 2-1 ODI series win against the greatest Australian team in history in Australia in 2002, only people who watched cricket at the time will remember that no one could even imagine or dream of that side being defeated so easily

- The NZ team that Shoaib helped Pakistan win against in 2002-2003 was far superior batting and bowling wise to the NZ team that Waqar feasted on in 1990, 1992, 1993 and 1994. Even then Waqar's record against Martin Crowe was not stellar whereas Shoaib had knocked over the best NZ batsman Stephen Fleming numerous times

- Shoaib only bowled 3 balls to Lara and in one ball he forced him to retire hurt. He also badly dazzed Tendulkar with a nasty bouncer in 2006. I do not recall Waqar in his prime forcing someone of unquestioned quality to retire hurt

In boxing terms, one can make the argument that while Waqar has better overall stats on his record, he has more bums in comparison to Shoaib. Yes Shoaib under achieved given the god gifted potential he had but people need to be kinder to him as well

Good post.

I don't deny Waqar had a great career. He was probably as lethal as Shoaib Akhtar at his peak.

Just can't relate because we didn't see it.

 

[ShahidDar08]

Usually people would come to see the 4's and 6's hit by batsmen but when it is shoaib Akhtar bowling they forget about batsmen and roar for shoaib Akhtar. It tells everything about the class of a bowler.

When other bowlers were bowling, batsmen were only scared of getting out but when shoaib Akhtar bowls, they know if they are not getting out they are surely going to retired hurt.

If he had the fitness level of wasim or waqar, he would have taken more wickets than Wasim and Waqar combined.

Salute to Shobby!!!

 

[shahidrazzaq]

best post of this thread by far. shaoib > overrated waqar anyday.

Btw that 2002 win over prime Aussies in a odi series was impressive. I am surprised no one talks about it much on PP.

Shoaib's 5-25 is one of the most worshiped Pakistani performances bat or ball.

But if we're talking overall, I still think have to go with who accomplished more. I would rather watch Shoaib anyday, and even on days where he had apparent injuries, he could produce something out of nothing. I watched every session of England's tour of Pakistan right after their Ashes victory.

Akhtar was electric and I would stay up here in the US and watch whole days of those tests. Akhtar has many moments, but Waqar also had banana swing. His yorker to Lara is arguably my favorite delivery and I wasn't even alive for that.

Depends on the question probably- I'll even say if it's one match and Shoaib can fulfill his quota, I'll take him over Waqar. But career wise, and test cricket - when you know Waqar can give you overs and Shoaib can't, it'll be tough. It also makes it tough when you look at Shoaib's ODI career post-2005, and his last three test series (he only played in 3 after 2005), he didn't have the same juice.

Yeah injuries played a big role, and Shoaib's potential had he got to have played 100 Tests and through the skies.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Akhtar was in the media for wrong reasons even was ashamed of akhtar for what happened to him once. Waqar is a legend, such an insult

 

[Savak]

Akhtar was in the media for wrong reasons even was ashamed of akhtar for what happened to him once. Waqar is a legend, such an insult

Waqar is a legend statistically speaking but if he were a boxer, people would mock his record for consisting mostly of bums rather than quality opponents whereas Shoaib may not have the huge body of work but will have more high quality names on his record

 

[King_Kohli]

I know Waqar is ahead but AKthar has great following in India than any other Pakistani cricketer.
Even I am biggest fans of his action and pace.

In my college days he had great following in youth just because of speed.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Waqar is a legend statistically speaking but if he were a boxer, people would mock his record for consisting mostly of bums rather than quality opponents whereas Shoaib may not have the huge body of work but will have more high quality names on his record

Waqar dismantling Aussie line up and cleaning everyone up, even not in his prime in natwest series was a sight. To be fair to Waqar, he wasn't treated fairly when Wasim was captain.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Waqar is a legend statistically speaking but if he were a boxer, people would mock his record for consisting mostly of bums rather than quality opponents whereas Shoaib may not have the huge body of work but will have more high quality names on his record

waqar is like philander. A bonafide stat ladder. overrated second tier bowler. He only bullies weak players. See his record vs top teams like australia. Vs india as well.

shoaib is a real legend. one of the best Asian pacers ever.

 

[Savak]

Waqar dismantling Aussie line up and cleaning everyone up, even not in his prime in natwest series was a sight. To be fair to Waqar, he wasn't treated fairly when Wasim was captain.

That was a pretty inconsequential match, a dead rubber for the aussies

 

[tyron_woodley]

shoaib destroyed prime Aussies in 2002. first Asian team to win a bilateral odi series in australia. Thanks to shoaib. what did waqar do?

 

[Technics 1210]

Waqar Younis any day. Anyone who watched him before his injury will agree too even batsman. Even after his injury he was lethal.

There is a very famous quote by Alan Border, who in 1992 WC, after Waqar Younis was injured, said - '90% of our worries are over'.

Of course his stats, then his 'banana' yorkers.

There is one time where Shoaib edged it, and that was in Chennai 99, when he bowled Dravid, then presented Tendulkar in the next ball with his first ever Golden duck in Test cricket. The pin drop silence of a near 100000 crowd was a sight to to behold. Im sure theres a video of it on youtube.

 

[coy0607]

I didn't get to watch Waqar in his prime (early to mid 1990's) - but from everything I've heard, we was maybe the most explosive bowler ever during those years.

Shoaib was phenomenally explosive as well between 1999 - 2004, he just wasn't very consistent.

Both had a ton of injuries and so their prime years were limited. Waqar, to his credit, reinvented himself as a bowler and ended up having quite a lengthy career

 

[Savak]

I didn't get to watch Waqar in his prime (early to mid 1990's) - but from everything I've heard, we was maybe the most explosive bowler ever during those years.

Shoaib was phenomenally explosive as well between 1999 - 2004, he just wasn't very consistent.

Both had a ton of injuries and so their prime years were limited. Waqar, to his credit, reinvented himself as a bowler and ended up having quite a lengthy career

I wouldn't call a bowler reinventing himself when he used to be an explosive bowler in his prime but is struggling to even york a number 11 batsman like Walsh and Henry Olonga, that is what Waqar was from 1999 to the end of his career, a purely new ball dependent bowler who was a liability with the old ball. Waqar's ineffectiveness with the ball cost Pakistan the 2000 West Indies series and the 2001 NZ series, he was very lucky to have gotten the captaincy in 2001 which allowed him to play a few more games than he actually deserved

 

[Kingpin786]

waqar is like philander. A bonafide stat ladder. overrated second tier bowler. He only bullies weak players. See his record vs top teams like australia. Vs india as well.

shoaib is a real legend. one of the best Asian pacers ever.

like jasprit bumrah of india

 

[coy0607]

I wouldn't call a bowler reinventing himself when he used to be an explosive bowler in his prime but is struggling to even york a number 11 batsman like Walsh and Henry Olonga, that is what Waqar was from 1999 to the end of his career, a purely new ball dependent bowler who was a liability with the old ball. Waqar's ineffectiveness with the ball cost Pakistan the 2000 West Indies series and the 2001 NZ series, he was very lucky to have gotten the captaincy in 2001 which allowed him to play a few more games than he actually deserved

He did reinvent himself - you said it yourself - he went from super fast old ball bowler to a fast-medium new ball bowler.

He wasn't as good as he was before, but still averaged around 25 and took 100+ ODI wickets in his last 4 years.

 

[Savak]

He did reinvent himself - you said it yourself - he went from super fast old ball bowler to a fast-medium new ball bowler.

He wasn't as good as he was before, but still averaged around 25 and took 100+ ODI wickets in his last 4 years.

He would not have played half those games had he not been appointed captain from 2001 to 2003 which proved like a lucky lottery ticket for him. Prior to this he was in and out of the team because his form was inconsistent and his lack of performance hurt Pakistan tremendously on the WI tour of 2000 and NZ tour 2001 where he did not perform like a seasoned veteran at all. Moin Khan didn't even bother giving Waqar the ball when we had to knock of Courtney Walsh, thats how past it he was.

 

[tyron_woodley]

like jasprit bumrah of india

wrong. bumrah got the better de villiers and Kane twice in tests. Far better test players than pretty much anyone waqar has got the better off.

bumrah has a phenomenal record vs australia and south africa. hehe. Waqar has a trash record vs both teams and india.

waqar is basically a philander.

shoaib is way better than waqar anyday. Talking about tests.

 

[Pakistanian]

Never saw Waqar play but my father did and according to him the Two Ws (Waqar and Wasim) were a legendary duo. I wouldn't put Akhtar anywhere near the same level as them.

 

[Savak]

Never saw Waqar play but my father did and according to him the Two Ws (Waqar and Wasim) were a legendary duo. I wouldn't put Akhtar anywhere near the same level as them.

Ofcourse not against Wasim. But a strong argument can be made that Waqar has a lot of bums on his record.

 

[Nadeemp]

Ofcourse not against Wasim. But a strong argument can be made that Waqar has a lot of bums on his record.

Peak Waqar over peak akhtar anyday. waqar pre injury was insane. nobody had seen anything like him. He knew what he was going to bowl next, the batsman knew whats coming next, the whole stadium knew what coming next. And still the batsmen got destroyed. WI toured in 1989 -1990. Waqar played with them like they were kids

 

[Savak]

Peak Waqar over peak akhtar anyday. waqar pre injury was insane. nobody had seen anything like him. He knew what he was going to bowl next, the batsman knew whats coming next, the whole stadium knew what coming next. And still the batsmen got destroyed. WI toured in 1989 -1990. Waqar played with them like they were kids

Waqar pre-injury did not have the body of world class batsmen on his resume that Akhtar has. That WI side in 1989-90 was on the decline with Haynes, Grenidge at the end of their careers, there was no Viv Richards in that series. Waqar struggled against Australia in Australia in 1989 whereas Wasim stole all the adulation and accolades, England in 1992 were also a declining team which had lost the ashes consecutively and had an aging Graham Gooch, Allan Lamb, David Gower and filled with bunnies like Graeme Hick, David Gower.

Waqar during this time period got taken to the cleaners by Lara, Tendulkar. Batsmen got destroyed because reverse swing was a novelty and not a very well known art.

 

[Kingpin786]

wrong. bumrah got the better de villiers and Kane twice in tests. Far better test players than pretty much anyone waqar has got the better off.

bumrah has a phenomenal record vs australia and south africa. hehe. Waqar has a trash record vs both teams and india.

waqar is basically a philander

shoaib is way better than waqar anyday. Talking about tests.

So what waqar had his moments against lara tendulkar etc
Besides the australian team bumrah faced is weakest since 1980 and sa teamthat bumrah faced ab develiers had lost his peak same is the case with amla actually you actually bumrah is mediocre who has just bullied weaker lineups and he is yet to face a proper batting powerhouse which waqar faced many times

 

[Savak]

So what waqar had his moments against lara tendulkar etc
Besides the australian team bumrah faced is weakest since 1980 and sa teamthat bumrah faced ab develiers had lost his peak same is the case with amla actually you actually bumrah is mediocre who has just bullied weaker lineups and he is yet to face a proper batting powerhouse which waqar faced many times

Waqar did not face many batting powerhouses in his prime, the WI were in decline and far from the powerhouse they were in the 70's and early 80's. His record vs a weaker Australian batting line up compared the 2000's is poor as well. He mostly got hit around by Lara and Tendulkar

 

[Kingpin786]

Waqar did not face many batting powerhouses in his prime, the WI were in decline and far from the powerhouse they were in the 70's and early 80's. His record vs a weaker Australian batting line up compared the 2000's is poor as well. He mostly got hit around by Lara and Tendulkar

please check my above posts and tell me how many power house jasprit bumrah has faced in his test career

 

[Savak]

please check my above posts and tell me how many power house jasprit bumrah has faced in his test career

Not arguing in favour of philander but definitely arguing that Waqar is a bit over rated

 

[Kingpin786]

Not arguing in favour of philander but definitely arguing that Waqar is a bit over rated

yes just like jasprit bumrah who has inflated stats

 

[tyron_woodley]

So what waqar had his moments against lara tendulkar etc
Besides the australian team bumrah faced is weakest since 1980 and sa teamthat bumrah faced ab develiers had lost his peak same is the case with amla actually you actually bumrah is mediocre who has just bullied weaker lineups and he is yet to face a proper batting powerhouse which waqar faced many times

waqar faced nobodies and bullied no one worthy of note.

that same Australian team would butcher any version of prime Pakistani team in australia including imran's pakistan. Stop being delusional. waqar is a one trick pony with one dimensional ability. Shoaib is not even that great a bowler but he is far better than that overrated fraud.

de villiers was at his absolute best rofl. he just destroyed australia a year prior to facing india. amla was still in his prime. he too decimated am Australian team that had smith and warner in 2017. Stop talking nonsense. I don't rate waqar and I never will. He is a philander. A bonafide stat padder.

 

[Kingpin786]

waqar faced nobodies and bullied no one worthy of note.

that same Australian team would butcher any version of prime Pakistani team in australia including imran's pakistan. Stop being delusional. waqar is a one trick pony with one dimensional ability. Shoaib is not even that great a bowler but he is far better than that overrated fraud.

de villiers was at his absolute best rofl. he just destroyed australia a year prior to facing india. amla was still in his prime. he too decimated am Australian team that had smith and warner in 2017. Stop talking nonsense. I don't rate waqar and I never will. He is a philander. A bonafide stat padder.

Oh do you know amla's top score in 2018 test seies was 56
Why you go back to 2017 similarly azhar ali was explosive in 2016 but struggled in 2017 and onwards and i dont rate that crap bowler bumrah

 

[tyron_woodley]

Oh do you know amla's top score in 2018 test seies was 56
Why you go back to 2017 similarly azhar ali was explosive in 2016 but struggled in 2017 and onwards and i dont rate that crap bowler bumrah

amla was the reason they beat australia along with de villiers. bumrah just got the better of him. 2 players better than anyone waqar has got the better off an probably faced. Waqar is a mediocre trash fodder who made a career out of stat padding like the other SENA fodder philander. Total wastrel.

I don't rate waqar and never have. He sucked vs any top team in tests and in odi too.

 

[Kingpin786]

amla was the reason they beat australia along with de villiers. bumrah just got the better of him. 2 players better than anyone waqar has got the better off an probably faced. Waqar is a mediocre trash fodder who made a career out of stat padding like the other SENA fodder philander. Total wastrel.

I don't rate waqar and never have. He sucked vs any top team in tests and in odi too.

Please check amla's stats in series vs aus 2018
And bumrah's odi stats show that he is a bully as he averages 30+ against top teams accept sa and his career average which is below 25 waqar is 100ti.es better than that ugly action bowler

 

[majiz]

Shoaib akhtar is underrated imo but not as good as waqar younis- he himself slightly underrated

Akhtar was actually an intelligent bowler and miles ahead of Brett Lee. He didn't just lob it down

 

[Abdullah719]

Post sensibly and stick to the topic.

 

[silentkiller187]

both brilliant in their own right, i get the feeling Waqar was a lot more appreciated during his county years, and a lot of the adulation he gets is from his peers at that time, the ian wards, michael athertons, alec stewarts etc, these players saw waqars skills first hand and learned a lot from him, where as shoaib was your typical Pakistani bowler rawalpindi express scattergun approach but was a joy to watch as well. So i think Pakistani fans would probably rate shoaib higher however around the world cricketers would especially in the UK would opt for Waqar.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Please check amla's stats in series vs aus 2018
And bumrah's odi stats show that he is a bully as he averages 30+ against top teams accept sa and his career average which is below 25 waqar is 100ti.es better than that ugly action bowler

waqar would not survive in modern era. he is a weak minded one dimeniisnal bowler. Imagine him in batting era rofl. he would be a bonafide mohammed irfan at best. power play rules and restrictions lol. get out of here. he made a career by living off wasim's prodigious talent. wasim is the real legend. waqar is a phony. Not even a 10th of a bowler that bumrah is in modern era. Hell, I would even pick a 50 averaging philander in non SENA conditions over him because he can actually do a containment job.

 

[Kingpin786]

waqar would not survive in modern era. he is a weak minded one dimeniisnal bowler. Imagine him in batting era rofl. he would be a bonafide mohammed irfan at best. power play rules and restrictions lol. get out of here. he made a career by living off wasim's prodigious talent. wasim is the real legend. waqar is a phony. Not even a 10th of a bowler that bumrah is in modern era. Hell, I would even pick a 50 averaging philander in non SENA conditions over him because he can actually do a containment job.

Dont worry you are allowed to hype your mediocre bowlers

 

[ammar_merry]

Last time i checked waqar is:
-ICC hall of fame
-Bradman hall of fame
-3rd highest ODI wisden rating of 1167.
-Waqar Younis appears 9 times in wisden top 100 ODI bowling performance , more than any other player.

 

[Savak]

Last time i checked waqar is:
-ICC hall of fame
-Bradman hall of fame
-3rd highest ODI wisden rating of 1167.
-Waqar Younis appears 9 times in wisden top 100 ODI bowling performance , more than any other player.

No one denies this, but his stats have a lot of bums as well.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Dont worry you are allowed to hype your mediocre bowlers

cool. Still better than the guy who lived off wasim. Wasim big bothered him and made a phony look good but even then the mighty wasim couldn't save him from getting destroyed vs top teams or top players.

 

[shahidrazzaq]

waqar is like philander. A bonafide stat ladder. overrated second tier bowler. He only bullies weak players. See his record vs top teams like australia. Vs india as well.

shoaib is a real legend. one of the best Asian pacers ever.

Waqar's ODI record against India is similar if not better to Shoaib's, with similar amount of matches. Waqar also took a 6-fer towards the end of his career against Australia which consisted of both Waughs, Hayden, Symonds, and Bevan ('01 being one of his best years).

But I agree, Waqar was worse against Australia than Shoaib, but Shoaib was also expensive against Australia.

No one can forget Waqar's final two overs of hell in the 96 quarter-final. While his first 8 overs were outstanding, he bit dust in the end. That match was without Wasim as well, and on the day everyone was relatively spanked outside of Ata-ur-Rehman. One of Shoaib's most regrettable performances is also against India in the 03 World Cup. In the same match Shoaib got replaced, old Waqar was also expensive but took took Sehwag and Ganguly out immediately. No one could run away from Sachin on that day.

 

[Savak]

Waqar's ODI record against India is similar if not better to Shoaib's, with similar amount of matches. Waqar also took a 6-fer towards the end of his career against Australia which consisted of both Waughs, Hayden, Symonds, and Bevan ('01 being one of his best years).

But I agree, Waqar was worse against Australia than Shoaib, but Shoaib was also expensive against Australia.

No one can forget Waqar's final two overs of hell in the 96 quarter-final. While his first 8 overs were outstanding, he bit dust in the end. That match was without Wasim as well, and on the day everyone was relatively spanked outside of Ata-ur-Rehman. One of Shoaib's most regrettable performances is also against India in the 03 World Cup. In the same match Shoaib got replaced, old Waqar was also expensive but took took Sehwag and Ganguly out immediately. No one could run away from Sachin on that day.

That 6 wicket haul came in the most inconsequential match where both teams coming into the game were assured of a place in the final, it was a game where Ricky Ponting was rested and both Mark and Steve Waugh were dropped from ODI's for good a couple of months later as Cricket Australia felt they had to be moved on. Symonds was caught on the boundary rather than any brilliant piece of bowling.

Waqar was a habitual run leaker and pressure reliever from 1999 to 2003 and had he not been captain, a neutral selection committee without looking at his past records would have dropped him.

Waqar's prime from 1989 to 1996 is filled with stats from weak teams in that era i.e. England, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka

 

[Kingpin786]

cool. Still better than the guy who lived off wasim. Wasim big bothered him and made a phony look good but even then the mighty wasim couldn't save him from getting destroyed vs top teams or top players.

Yeah for indian standards crap like bumrah is equivalent to marshal and holding

 

[tyron_woodley]

Yeah for indian standards crap like bumrah is equivalent to marshal and holding

Still better than that fraud named waqar anyday. A sub par philander at best. Hell shami is better than your shoaib too. By the time he retires shami will overtake shoaib bhai.

waqar got outbowled by venkatst Prasad rofl. haha.

 

[ammar_merry]

That 6 wicket haul came in the most inconsequential match where both teams coming into the game were assured of a place in the final, it was a game where Ricky Ponting was rested and both Mark and Steve Waugh were dropped from ODI's for good a couple of months later as Cricket Australia felt they had to be moved on. Symonds was caught on the boundary rather than any brilliant piece of bowling.

Waqar was a habitual run leaker and pressure reliever from 1999 to 2003 and had he not been captain, a neutral selection committee without looking at his past records would have dropped him.

Waqar's prime from 1989 to 1996 is filled with stats from weak teams in that era i.e. England, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka

How many 5fers shoaib has picked after 2006 even in inconsequential matches?
You said waqar peak is from 89-96.
took 10 wickets in test match vs southafrica in 1998.
won sharjah cup final 2000 vs southafrica. changed the match by getting klusner.
7fer and 6fer in netwest series.

 

[Ab Fan]

Waqar was a brilliant bowler and his peak was outrageous. In ODIs, you could get runs from him but he was a wicket-taker bowler and his stats reflect that.

In this forum, Waqar Younis and Shaun Pollock are underrated and they both deserve more respect than they get.

 

[Kingpin786]

Still better than that fraud named waqar anyday. A sub par philander at best. Hell shami is better than your shoaib too. By the time he retires shami will overtake shoaib bhai.

waqar got outbowled by venkatst Prasad rofl. haha.

i dont know why you get harassed when we talk about pakistani fastbowlers

 

[Savak]

How many 5fers shoaib has picked after 2006 even in inconsequential matches?
You said waqar peak is from 89-96.
took 10 wickets in test match vs southafrica in 1998.
won sharjah cup final 2000 vs southafrica. changed the match by getting klusner.
7fer and 6fer in netwest series.

What was the end result of that game in 1998? What was the end result of that game in 1998 in South Africa where Shoaib got 5 wickets? What was the end result of that test match in South Africa where a past prime Shoaib picked up 4 wickets in 2007? Shoaib contributed to two test wins in South Africa, Waqar did squatter in comparison

You bring up the Sharjah cup in 2000 for Waqar, what about the matches and series he went missing i.e. the 2000 West Indies tour where Moin Khan didn't even deem it fit to give him the ball to wrap up the innings against Courtney Walsh? What about the 2001 NZ tour where Waqar inspire of being the senior bowler did not perform like a senior bowler?

Had he not been appointed captain he would not have even be picked for the national team from 2001 to 2003.

No one is claiming anything about Shoaib when he was past his prime from 2006 onwards, he missed most games due to injury problems and the only time period he played consistently for Pakistan was from June 2010 to March 2011, a period of 8-9 months where it clearly showed he was not the same bowler anymore and he retired immediately rather than hang on for a good 4-5 years shamelessly playing for Pakistan but being ineffective.

 

[Savak]

Waqar was a brilliant bowler and his peak was outrageous. In ODIs, you could get runs from him but he was a wicket-taker bowler and his stats reflect that.

In this forum, Waqar Younis and Shaun Pollock are underrated and they both deserve more respect than they get.

Lol, don't worry, Waqar gets massive respect on the forum inspire of the bulk of his test stats being filled with bums and bunnies

 

[tyron_woodley]

i dont know why you get harassed when we talk about pakistani fastbowlers

dude imran is an ATG. imran one of the best ever.
wasim an ATG. one of the greatest.


but waqar no. He is a fraud. I have seen him play and so have my parents. He lived off wasim. He made a career by feeding off wasim prodigious talent. Plus he is also a snitch. Not to mention he dint want shoaib in the team because he was afraid of competition since he wanted to preserve his place despite his pathetic record vs australia and india.

also pakistan lost in the world cup because of him. To india.

 

[Kingpin786]

dude imran is an ATG. imran one of the best ever.
wasim an ATG. one of the greatest.


but waqar no. He is a fraud. I have seen him play and so have my parents. He lived off wasim. He made a career by feeding off wasim prodigious talent. Plus he is also a snitch. Not to mention he dint want shoaib in the team because he was afraid of competition since he wanted to preserve his place despite his pathetic record vs australia and india.

also pakistan lost in the world cup because of him. To india.

now you are disrespecting legend

 

[DoosraView]

Waqar Younis or Shoaib Akhtar?



Hello and AOA,

I recently pondered with my friends who would be chosen if given the option between Waqar Younis and Shoaib Akhtar. One's contributions would remain and the other's would be eliminated, who would you choose?

Thank you,
Doosra View YT

 

[Ab Fan]

Waqar but Akhtar at its peak was arguably even more enjoyable.

Waqar is a lower tier ATG while Akhtar is a Pakistani great.

 

[daytrader]

Waqar is a legend and continues to contribute to Pakistan cricket till this day. Akhter is not in the same league as a player or person. He could've been an all time great, maybe even a higher tier one compared to Waqar, but his ego didn't allow him to improve

 

[ammar_merry]

Waqar.Both are wonderful bowlers though.

 

[Faiz1978]

Shoib had disciple issues , always in controversies , was not a team man all captains had problem with him .

 

[Savak]

Waqar is a legend and continues to contribute to Pakistan cricket till this day. Akhter is not in the same league as a player or person. He could've been an all time great, maybe even a higher tier one compared to Waqar, but his ego didn't allow him to improve

Contribute how? The man has been a failure in all his coaching stints and has left in controversy each time. There is no basis for your statements, Akhtar delivered as much as his body allowed him too.

 

[subshakerz]

Its not about being a Waqar fan but about being unbiased. We all know how much you admire Shoaib and I respect that but it doesn't change the fact that Waqar was a much greater player than Shoaib. I will specifically address some of the assertions you have made in your posts in this thread and how pretty much none of them stand up to close scrutiny.

It is always difficult to analyze the numbers of someone like Shoaib who was never a permanent fixture in the team at any point in his career, let alone compare him with one of the ATGs. Waqar, despite being plagued by injuries throughout his career was a much more reliable player and managed to play in about 80% of the tests (87 out of 111) and about 70% (262 of 382) of the ODIs that Pakistan played during his career. Shoaib's participation on the other hand remained below 50% (46 out of 94 tests and 163 out of 345 ODIs)in both and even when he did play more often than not he broke down. Adjusting for those occasions his participation is more like 30% over the course of his career. I doubt there has been any player in the history of the game with a poorer record in terms of being absent from the team for reasons other than non-selection. Also, unlike Waqar, not all of Shoaib's absences were caused by injuries or fitness issues. The fact that he still left such a legacy is a testament to his effectiveness but also leaves us with the question of what he could have achieved had he played more consistently.

Coming to your point about their respective peak years, the five year period of 90-94 was probably Waqar's peak. During this time he took 184 wickets in only 31 matches (more than Shoaib's entire career) with England 92, W.I 93 and NZ (both home and away being the highlights). His spells in WI, Eng and NZ are still some of the best I have ever seen from a Pakistani bowler. And none of them were weak teams, especially at home. Most of Waqar's wickets in those series were top order wickets of main opposition batsmen. Given Shoaib's sporadic appearances its really difficult to pinpoint his real peak in terms of a period (probably the closest he came to it was in 2002-03) and which is perhaps why we remember his career in terms of specific spells like Chennai 99 or Colombo 02 and overestimate his overall impact on the game. You have repeatedly stated that Shoaib was more effective against Australia when Waqar had both a better average against Australia and in Australia than Shoaib. Moreover, barring the Colombo test, Shoaib's other 5 wicket hauls against Australia were neither very destructive nor did they include many top order bats.

Your observation about Waqar being less effective towards the end of his career has some merit but not because he was a liability on the team but because his performance during this period paled in comparison to what he had achieved previously. During the last 4 years of his career (00-03) he picked 94 wickets @ 27.9 in tests and 129 @ 25.2 in ODIs and that is when he had lost most of his pace. Shoaib on the other hand in his last 4 years in tests produced 60 wickets @30 and 39 @ 33.7 in ODIs. Clearly shows how Waqar reinvented himself after losing his pace but Shoaib being the one trick pony he was declined sharply when his fitness and pace deserted him.

Shoaib was undoubtedly one of the fastest, if not THE fastest bowler ever to play the game. In terms of pace he was way ahead of Waqar. He also had better overall control than Waqar who had a tendency to spray it around at times, especially with the new ball. Waqar, however, was peerless with the old ball. In my three decades of watching this game I certainly haven't seen anything like Waqar's spells with the old ball. Shoaib running in at full throttle, full of menace, was a sight to behold, but for me at least, it will not equal the thrill of watching Waqar dismantle batting lineups with those searing toe crushing yorkers. However, as a Pakistan cricket fan I consider it a pleasure and honor to have witnessed both of them in their pomp.

Please recheck the scorecards from Waqar's peak. Most of his wickets were with the old bowl against middle order and lower order batsmen. Even in his peak, he was a fairly average new ball bowler who would get smashed around. That is exactly what Desmond Haynes and co did to him in West Indies in 1993. In fact, he was better with the new ball in the later part of his career.

Waqar was a better bowler than Shoaib but his peak is overrated and players who played both Wasim and Waqar during this time would still go for Wasim as better.

Imran's peak is actually superior to Waqar's as he was a monster with both old and new ball against superior sides and didnt have the same bowling support.

 

[daytrader]

Contribute how? The man has been a failure in all his coaching stints and has left in controversy each time. There is no basis for your statements, Akhtar delivered as much as his body allowed him too.

He's the current bowling coach and has been involved on and off with Pakistani cricket after retirement in various roles. Our current crop of bowlers are learning from him. What has Shoaib done?

Waqar is a contributer, Shoaib is a complainer. That's a fact

 

[daytrader]

Contribute how? The man has been a failure in all his coaching stints and has left in controversy each time. There is no basis for your statements, Akhtar delivered as much as his body allowed him too.

Akhtar was a poor athlete and never saw the need to improve. He could've delivered alot more if he stayed focused but sadly he's just another Pakistani case of 'what if'

 

[Zaz]

Contribute how? The man has been a failure in all his coaching stints and has left in controversy each time. There is no basis for your statements, Akhtar delivered as much as his body allowed him too.

Did he? I guess the various bans, poor attitude and his various off field issues were also because of his body right?

 

[Zaz]

Lets be honest Theres no match here Waqar is the clear winner He has twice the wickets in tests and odis at superior avges

Shoaib played intnl cricket for 15 years - he shouldve had at least 300 odi wickets and 250 test wickets as a minimum taking into account the strain on his body bowling so fast, injuries etc etc

The fact that he didnt means he underachieved and its all down to himself

 

[SensiblePakFan]

Waqar always.

 

[Savak]

He's the current bowling coach and has been involved on and off with Pakistani cricket after retirement in various roles. Our current crop of bowlers are learning from him. What has Shoaib done?

Waqar is a contributer, Shoaib is a complainer. That's a fact

Waqar was not getting involved in Pakistan Cricket for free. He was paid pretty handsomely with perks in his tenures. Like i said he has been involved in spats with the players and the PCB and has not produced one world class bowler in his tenure so not sure what the current crop of bowlers are learning from him when the bowling was embarrassing on the tour to Australia. Lol, the guy couldn't even get the bowling coach role for Cricket Australia even though the guy lives in Australia but yet the PCB has hired him for the bowling coach role and the head coach role numerous times which only shows our poor recruitment standards.

As far as commentary is concerned, i guess then we can say that Ramiz Raja is a far bigger contributor to Pakistan Cricket

Shoaib Akhtar applied for the national bowling coach role in 2012 and has been a PCB advisor and was in consideration for the U19 Head coach and chief selector role. What can he do if the PCB decides to go with yes men instead? The guy plans on acquiring a PSL franchise going forward which will give him a far greater say in how the players under him are managed.

 

[Savak]

Akhtar was a poor athlete and never saw the need to improve. He could've delivered alot more if he stayed focused but sadly he's just another Pakistani case of 'what if'

He was a poor athlete because his body was injury riddled, there was so much improvement he could do with a physique not meant for fast bowling. He has had knee replacement surgeries in 2016 and 2019 at the age of 41 and 44 because his knees were badly damaged by 14 years of bowling with those knees and these are surgeries which old people get in their 60's and 70's.

Don't think he has any regrets, he is held in very high esteem by India, Australia and is doing well in life outside Cricket and is very fondly remembered by the players he played with on the impact he had on the game.

 

[Savak]

Did he? I guess the various bans, poor attitude and his various off field issues were also because of his body right?

The bans are mostly because the PCB does not like individuals who are fearless, who say and do what they want and are not bound by dictation.

 

[Savak]

Lets be honest Theres no match here Waqar is the clear winner He has twice the wickets in tests and odis at superior avges

Shoaib played intnl cricket for 15 years - he shouldve had at least 300 odi wickets and 250 test wickets as a minimum taking into account the strain on his body bowling so fast, injuries etc etc

The fact that he didnt means he underachieved and its all down to himself

Its a stark contrast Waqar's stats from 1989-1996 and then from 1997 to 2003, two completely different bowlers. Shoaib's doctors gave him 2-3 years max in international cricket in 1997, don't think one can achieve 300 odi wickets and 250 test wickets in such a short time period.

 

[Zaz]

Its a stark contrast Waqar's stats from 1989-1996 and then from 1997 to 2003, two completely different bowlers. Shoaib's doctors gave him 2-3 years max in international cricket in 1997, don't think one can achieve 300 odi wickets and 250 test wickets in such a short time period.

Waqar was injury riddled post 1995 hence his stats fell away slightly

He redeveloped himself as a very effective fast medium pacer and still avged mid 20s post 1996 which is a credit to him

Shoaib injuries or not shouldve played more games for pakistan Half the time he wasnt injured, just loved being controversial

Wasim calls him Shoaib Actor

Worcestershire chairman famously said

Players like that are no good to our club. In fact, Shoaib has been no good for any club he's been at," Elliot was quoted as saying by Sporting Life. "It's all about team spirit and getting the dressing room right and when you've got a bloke like Shoaib in there, it can cause mayhem."

Hes fallen out with inzy, and every pcb chairman there was

Waqar said to him famously just shut up and bowl, had he done that then the comparison wouldve been more apt

 

[shamaan]

Akhtar is a great bowler waqar is a legend

 

[ammar_merry]

Its a stark contrast Waqar's stats from 1989-1996 and then from 1997 to 2003, two completely different bowlers. Shoaib's doctors gave him 2-3 years max in international cricket in 1997, don't think one can achieve 300 odi wickets and 250 test wickets in such a short time period.

shoaib at the time of reinventing was involved in non cricketing matters.Missed 3 ICC tournaments CT2006,WC 2007,Wt20 2007. Fighting bob, then asif and afridi before t20 wcup, positive dope test before wcup.

 

[tyron_woodley]

He was a poor athlete because his body was injury riddled, there was so much improvement he could do with a physique not meant for fast bowling. He has had knee replacement surgeries in 2016 and 2019 at the age of 41 and 44 because his knees were badly damaged by 14 years of bowling with those knees and these are surgeries which old people get in their 60's and 70's.

Don't think he has any regrets, he is held in very high esteem by India, Australia and is doing well in life outside Cricket and is very fondly remembered by the players he played with on the impact he had on the game.

he sure is well respected in india. Not waqar though. Indians never feared waqar. He was non existent in tests vs india. shoaib instilled fear in every side.

 

[Robert]

Waqar by miles. Shoaib did very well for a while but did not look after his fitness.

I rate Waqar as the second best bowler from Asia, behind only Imran.

 

[ammar_merry]

Waqar by miles. Shoaib did very well for a while but did not look after his fitness.

I rate Waqar as the second best bowler from Asia, behind only Imran.

[MENTION=2501]Savak[/MENTION] @tyron _woodley

 

[amvbfm]

Please recheck the scorecards from Waqar's peak. Most of his wickets were with the old bowl against middle order and lower order batsmen. Even in his peak, he was a fairly average new ball bowler who would get smashed around. That is exactly what Desmond Haynes and co did to him in West Indies in 1993. In fact, he was better with the new ball in the later part of his career.

Waqar was a better bowler than Shoaib but his peak is overrated and players who played both Wasim and Waqar during this time would still go for Wasim as better.

Imran's peak is actually superior to Waqar's as he was a monster with both old and new ball against superior sides and didnt have the same bowling support.

Had you not been hasty in replying to my post you would have noticed that nowhere did i claim Waqar was a great new ball bowler. In fact I wrote about his old ball woes in the last paragraph. The line you have highlighted was about Waqar's peak years as compared to Shoaib. It clearly said "Most of Waqar's wickets in those series were top order wickets of main opposition batsmen". In fact one of the most frustrating experiences of those years was watching Waqar getting thrashed with the new ball.

As for your point about 93, would request you to revisit the scorecards. Memories- assuming you are old enough to have witnessed the series - can be deceptive and selective. I remember that series as a disaster with the most vivid memories being the new ball thrashings, Hooper's masterclass and Aamir Nazir's no-ball woes. Forgotten amidst all that carnage is Waqar's bowling. 19 wickets with almost one third being top order and another one third being middle order wickets. Wasim on the other hand failed to get even a single top order wicket in the entire series. Similarly, England 92 produced more top order wickets for Waqar than Wasim. Also, overall Waqar has a higher percentage of top order test wickets than Wasim (although i wouldn't count it against Wasim as those numbers can be deceptive) and more than one third of Wasim's wickets are of lower order batsmen. Not to say I am claiming that Waqar was better. Wasim was a more versatile bowler and still for me the greatest cricketer we have ever produced but Waqar in his heyday was a totally unique bowler and certainly a way way better player than Shoaib.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Look at that sprint 4:23 onwards. Waqar in his prime was scary!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILRLWfKbOKg&ab_channel=CricketClassics

 

[Muddaser]

Laughable comparison.

Waqar is a great in both formats who did justice to his talent despite injuries.

Shoaib on the other hand never fulfilled his potential and blames everyone else for it.

He isn't even a great bowler. 174 test wickets and 247 ODI wickets.

Give it a rest.

 

[The Viper]

Waqar is easily better than Akthar. Waqar had one of the greatest peaks of all time and is an ATG whilst Akhtar is a great.