Should Afghanistan be part of the Akhand Bharat?

[Bigboii]

So in a different thread I asked the same question but after researching this topic I thaught it's not a purely historical question and it deserves a new thread.

I came across some Hindu nationalists (on the internet) claiming that Afghanistan is part of akhand Bharat which I thaught was kinda wrong (not totally but mostly wrong)

So posters who believe that Aghanistan is or isn't part of the Akhand Bharat what's your reasoning ?

 

[Nostalgic]

Khand, from the Farsi Qand, means sugar in various South Asian languages. Consequently, every time I hear the term Akhand Bharat, I picture Bharat Mata in a diabetic coma...

 

[Nostalgic]

... the RSS map showing an artificially bloated Bharat doesn’t help.

 

[Zaz]

Does it include?

Aghanistan
Pakistan
India
Nepal
Bhutan
Bangladesh
Burma

 

[ElRaja]

So in a different thread I asked the same question but after researching this topic I thaught it's not a purely historical question and it deserves a new thread.

I came across some Hindu nationalists (on the internet) claiming that Afghanistan is part of akhand Bharat which I thaught was kinda wrong (not totally but mostly wrong)

So posters who believe that Aghanistan is or isn't part of the Akhand Bharat what's your reasoning ?

the great thing about imaginary constructs is that they can include whatever people want.

 

[Bigboii]

Afghanistan was part of the Harappan civilization and at the time these native people were not semi-nomadic people from central asia and it's possible that ethnically people from the Harappan civilization (including Afghanistan) maybe the same people

Than the central asian nomadic people pushed tham out and after that we saw that these nomads were converted to buddhism

So I think an argument "can" be made that Afghanistan is historically part of greater India

(Now we know that there wouldn't be be anything like Akhand Bharat in real life but I think by looking at what they consider "India" or "indian" we can learn a lot about this modern Hindu nationalist movement and it's goals)

 

[Bigboii]

Does it include?

Aghanistan
Pakistan
India
Nepal
Bhutan
Bangladesh
Burma

Also Tibet

 

[PetroDollars]

I think it should go all the way up to America, but why stop there, maybe make mars a colony too.

 

[Nostalgic]

What they need is to take a leaf from our book and come up with a catchy acronym for the constituent elements of the proposed Akhand Bharat. Since it has Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet, the Humsaaya Mulk proper, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh and Burma, they could call it Paint BBB, or Ban PTI, or Bat Nip etc.

 

[Mesozoic]

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Ghamand Bharat

 

[Madplayer]

Khand, from the Farsi Qand, means sugar in various South Asian languages. Consequently, every time I hear the term Akhand Bharat, I picture Bharat Mata in a diabetic coma...

In Kashmiri too Khand means sugar.
Khand-Phol (Phol literally translates to "bit") means a small miniature ball of a sugary preparation which is often offered to the devotees by Pirs at Sufi Shrines in Kashmir.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Nothing wrong with saying Afghanistan is part of Akhand Bharat. Afghanistan used to be Hindu and Buddhist majority, and that's what is Akhand Bharat to Hindu Nationalist.

Hindu Nationalist consider Afghanistan to be part of Akhand Bharat because they consider South Asia to be one historical country, that might not have been politically united, but it was culturally united.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

In Kashmiri too Khand means sugar.
Khand-Phol (Phol literally translates to "bit") means a small miniature ball of a sugary preparation which is often offered to the devotees by Pirs at Sufi Shrines in Kashmir.

In Hindi also Desi Khand means Sugar.

 

[Nostalgic]

In Kashmiri too Khand means sugar.
Khand-Phol (Phol literally translates to "bit") means a small miniature ball of a sugary preparation which is often offered to the devotees by Pirs at Sufi Shrines in Kashmir.

Fascinating, I’ve read lots about the shrine culture in the valley: Hazratbal, the shrine of Ali Hamdani, and many others.

 

[El Generico]

I have seen some Indians claim even US as part of ancient Indian territory. So I guess the US is also part of akhand bharat.

 

[Bigboii]

Nothing wrong with saying Afghanistan is part of Akhand Bharat. Afghanistan used to be Hindu and Buddhist majority, and that's what is Akhand Bharat to Hindu Nationalist.

Hindu Nationalist consider Afghanistan to be part of Akhand Bharat because they consider South Asia to be one historical country, that might not have been politically united, but it was culturally united.

But for thousands of years Afghanistan was basically a Persian province and before Ahmed Shah Durrani there was no "proper" Afghanistan it was basically "Persia"

Harrapan civilization was the only time when India and Afghanistan had contact but even than most sources say Afghanistan was a "colony" not a proper part of the Harrapan Civilization

And when they became Buddhists they were "persianized" (basically how Afghans are right know but with a lot more Persian influences) so if shared religion was the only requirement than this is a slippery slope because budhism is everywhere and even than it was a big part of east asian and asian countries

 

[Bigboii]

It would have been cool if you did to fellow indian PP members (like [MENTION=2099]Cricket[/MENTION]joshilla and many others) who claim that Afghanistan was part of the "Akhand Bharat"

 

[Mesozoic]

I have seen some Indians claim even US as part of ancient Indian territory. So I guess the US is also part of akhand bharat.

Well there's a reason why they refer to the natives there as "Indians".

 

[Madplayer]

Fascinating, I’ve read lots about the shrine culture in the valley: Hazratbal, the shrine of Ali Hamdani, and many others.

Yes, Kashmir is also called Pir-Ver in the Kashmiri language which roughly translates to "the abode of saints" due to a large number of sufi saints, either foreigners or locals, who contributed enormously to the local life and especially shaped the ethos. Mir Syed Ali Hamdani (RA) as you mentioned is considered a major historical figure (even though a foreigner) in Kashmir who uplifted the economy by bringing in new skills and facilitated the flourish of Islam alongside other local saints like Sheikh Noorudin Noorani (Ra). Hazratbal Shrine on the banks of Dal Lake (a sight to behold i tell you) is believed to host the Moi Mubarak (a hair strand of the Prophet) and that's why people revere it the most.

 

[Madplayer]

In Hindi also Desi Khand means Sugar.

Yes i know. And Khand also means a broken part in Hindi i think. I learnt it when Rajnath singh once said "Pakistan Khand khand ho jayega"

 

[Bigboii]

Yes, Kashmir is also called Pir-Ver in the Kashmiri language which roughly translates to "the abode of saints" due to a large number of sufi saints, either foreigners or locals, who contributed enormously to the local life and especially shaped the ethos. Mir Syed Ali Hamdani (RA) as you mentioned is considered a major historical figure (even though a foreigner) in Kashmir who uplifted the economy by bringing in new skills and facilitated the flourish of Islam alongside other local saints like Sheikh Noorudin Noorani (Ra). Hazratbal Shrine on the banks of Dal Lake (a sight to behold i tell you) is believed to host the Moi Mubarak (a hair strand of the Prophet) and that's why people revere it the most.

Isn't RA for Sahabas only

 

[Nostalgic]

Yes, Kashmir is also called Pir-Ver in the Kashmiri language which roughly translates to "the abode of saints" due to a large number of sufi saints, either foreigners or locals, who contributed enormously to the local life and especially shaped the ethos. Mir Syed Ali Hamdani (RA) as you mentioned is considered a major historical figure (even though a foreigner) in Kashmir who uplifted the economy by bringing in new skills and facilitated the flourish of Islam alongside other local saints like Sheikh Noorudin Noorani (Ra). Hazratbal Shrine on the banks of Dal Lake (a sight to behold i tell you) is believed to host the Moi Mubarak (a hair strand of the Prophet) and that's why people revere it the most.

Yup. For many of us in Pakistan who are inclined to literature, it was hard not to have read Qudratullah Shahab’s autobiography, warts and all. He was from Jammu, and during an outbreak of plague, he and his siblings were sent off to Srinagar. He writes about the trip from Jammu to Srinagar over the old Banihal route on the Nanda Bus Service. There’s a point on the trip where itinerant Kashmiri laborers are making the backbreaking trip from the Punjab plains up to the valley on foot, bent over by the load they are carrying on their backs. At this point, he segues into a lovely description of the sheer intimacy of life in the valley: the shrine culture, and tales of Shah Hamdan (as Ali Hamdani is known as), and lovelorn poetry by Habba Khatun... it was hard not to fall in love with Kashmir after having read that passage...

 

[Madplayer]

Isn't RA for Sahabas only

The abbreviation could mean different things. I meant Rahmatullahiala. Which simply means May Allah have mercy on them. For Sahabas we say RadiAllahuta'ala Anhu. RA is just short form for any of such prayers.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Isn't RA for Sahabas only

One is RaziAllah Taaalah Anha/o/oma which is specifically used for the Sahaba. The other is Rehmatullah Alaih which you can use for any pious person dead or alive.

Yup. For many of us in Pakistan who are inclined to literature, it was hard not to have read Qudratullah Shahab’s autobiography, warts and all. He was from Jammu, and during an outbreak of plague, he and his siblings were sent off to Srinagar. He writes about the trip from Jammu to Srinagar over the old Banihal route on the Nanda Bus Service. There’s a point on the trip where itinerant Kashmiri laborers are making the backbreaking trip from the Punjab plains up to the valley on foot, bent over by the load they are carrying on their backs. At this point, he segues into a lovely description of the sheer intimacy of life in the valley: the shrine culture, and tales of Shah Hamdan (as Ali Hamdani is known as), and lovelorn poetry by Habba Khatun... it was hard not to fall in love with Kashmir after having read that passage...

Kashmir for me is forever linked with the short stories of Shafeeq-ur-Rehman. The story about the lorry and finding idiosyncrasies in people around us when we pay attention from the book Shagoofay, or the epic tale of young love in "Baby" from Hamaaqatain. Kashmir resonates with the soul. It just hits on an entirely different level all aside.

On the thread, the parosis have a right to claim whatever they want, whether it's on the ground or in the skies - there's no limit to claims.

 

[Madplayer]

Yup. For many of us in Pakistan who are inclined to literature, it was hard not to have read Qudratullah Shahab’s autobiography, warts and all. He was from Jammu, and during an outbreak of plague, he and his siblings were sent off to Srinagar. He writes about the trip from Jammu to Srinagar over the old Banihal route on the Nanda Bus Service. There’s a point on the trip where itinerant Kashmiri laborers are making the backbreaking trip from the Punjab plains up to the valley on foot, bent over by the load they are carrying on their backs. At this point, he segues into a lovely description of the sheer intimacy of life in the valley: the shrine culture, and tales of Shah Hamdan (as Ali Hamdani is known as), and lovelorn poetry by Habba Khatun... it was hard not to fall in love with Kashmir after having read that passage...

I havent read the book which you've mentioned. I surely will now. Kashmir's culture and worldview is quite unique. However, the values of the old are now getting eroded especially in the more urban stretches. We would like to blame outsiders for it who have worked tirelessly to make us betray the folkways and mores that we once held dear but at the end of the day we have to look inwards and know that we allowed and are still allowing it to happen.

 

[Nostalgic]

Kashmir for me is forever linked with the short stories of Shafeeq-ur-Rehman. The story about the lorry and finding idiosyncrasies in people around us when we pay attention from the book Shagoofay, or the epic tale of young love in "Baby" from Hamaaqatain. Kashmir resonates with the soul. It just hits on an entirely different level all aside.

Ah yes, the P.G.Wodehouse of Urdu literature. I have to confess I’ve read little of his work, and what little I’ve read I’ve forgotten. I am going to rectify that right now though... by downloading illegal pdf copies of his books.

 

[Bigboii]

Yup. For many of us in Pakistan who are inclined to literature, it was hard not to have read Qudratullah Shahab’s autobiography, warts and all. He was from Jammu, and during an outbreak of plague, he and his siblings were sent off to Srinagar. He writes about the trip from Jammu to Srinagar over the old Banihal route on the Nanda Bus Service. There’s a point on the trip where itinerant Kashmiri laborers are making the backbreaking trip from the Punjab plains up to the valley on foot, bent over by the load they are carrying on their backs. At this point, he segues into a lovely description of the sheer intimacy of life in the valley: the shrine culture, and tales of Shah Hamdan (as Ali Hamdani is known as), and lovelorn poetry by Habba Khatun... it was hard not to fall in love with Kashmir after having read that passage...

I don't read a ton of literature but I think Qudratullah Shahab's journey is really famous and when I read the part about the labourers and thier journey it was really sad because the background if I remember correctly was that these labourers left thier families behind for months to earn money in punjab and I don't remember clearly but it also talked about how tough life was for for thier families back in Kashmir and how the kids and the families were looking forward to fruits, gifts from thier fathers when they came back

But what I remember clearly from that piece was that it got me real emotional and sad and just made me appreciate all the good things in life that we take for granted

 

[Nostalgic]

I havent read the book which you've mentioned. I surely will now. Kashmir's culture and worldview is quite unique. However, the values of the old are now getting eroded especially in the more urban stretches. We would like to blame outsiders for it who have worked tirelessly to make us betray the folkways and mores that we once held dear but at the end of the day we have to look inwards and know that we allowed and are still allowing it to happen.

The book, called Shahabnama, is set in Kashmir in the early part of the author’s life. His father had been governor of Gilgit during Dogra rule, having risen through the ranks from a mere clerk, but then fell out with the Maharaja and settled down to a quiet life in Jammu, but was respected by the up and coming Muslim youth leadership in the 30s, including both Sheikh Abdullah and Chaudhary Ghulam Abbas, who visited him regularly. There’s mention of the rift between those two, the attitudes of the Dogras towards Muslims, a description of him having to visit the royal palace for tea after winning an essay-writing competition, and much later, his role in establishing the Azad Kashmir government, where he got to interact with Mirwaiz Yusuf Shah and other exiles.

 

[Nostalgic]

I don't read a ton of literature but I think Qudratullah Shahab's journey is really famous and when I read the part about the labourers and thier journey it was really sad because the background if I remember correctly was that these labourers left thier families behind for months to earn money in punjab and I don't remember clearly but it also talked about how tough life was for for thier families back in Kashmir and how the kids and the families were looking forward to fruits, gifts from thier fathers when they came back

But what I remember clearly from that piece was that it got me real emotional and sad and just made me appreciate all the good things in life that we take for granted

Correct, they were itinerant labor, who left the valley every fall for work in the markets in Punjab, but on the way back in the spring, without fail, the Dogra officers would loot them of all the money they had earned, and all that they were carrying back. Yet such was their love for their valley, they would make the journey back in the spring no matter what. In the winters while they were away, their womenfolk would busy themselves with embroidery, or carpet weaving, or carving delicate handicrafts out of wood or papier mache, masterpieces all of them... only to be fleeced at the hands of Pundit middlemen who paid them peanuts but sold off their work at high prices to tourists or in the markets outside Kashmir.

 

[Napa]

So in a different thread I asked the same question but after researching this topic I thaught it's not a purely historical question and it deserves a new thread.

I came across some Hindu nationalists (on the internet) claiming that Afghanistan is part of akhand Bharat which I thaught was kinda wrong (not totally but mostly wrong)

So posters who believe that Aghanistan is or isn't part of the Akhand Bharat what's your reasoning ?

Thanks but no thanks. India has enough problems to solve, without taking over terrorist ridden countries.

India needs to focus on developing its economy, not pandering to silly fantasies of those who want Afghanistan and Pakistan to be part of India.

 

[anakwalajinn]

Should have continued up to Scandinavia and taken over Norway as well!

https://advocatetanmoy.com/2019/09/07/akhand-bharat-greater-india/

 

[Napa]

<b>Harrapan civilization was the only time when India and Afghanistan had contact</b> but even than most sources say Afghanistan was a "colony" not a proper part of the Harrapan Civilization

Not really. All or parts of Afghanistan have been ruled by numerous Indian empires. For example:

The Indo-Greek Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

The Mauryan Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

The Maratha Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peshawar_(1758)

Afghanistan's history also included Vedic Gandhara and being one of the 16 mahajanapadas of ancient India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Vedic_Gandhara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Mahajanapada

Just curious, did you learn history in a Pakistani school?

 

[Nostalgic]

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION], while you search for the book, I found the chapter on the Jammu-Sringar trip narrated on YouTube (which actually ended up being terminated prematurely in Udhampur). The narrator mispronounces a few words: Jana Singh instead of Jana Sangh, Farn instead of Pheran etc, but its fine otherwise.

(also [MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] and [MENTION=133726]GoUgandaCranes[/MENTION] if you're interested in hearing it again)

 

[moghul]

So in a different thread I asked the same question but after researching this topic I thaught it's not a purely historical question and it deserves a new thread.

I came across some Hindu nationalists (on the internet) claiming that Afghanistan is part of akhand Bharat which I thaught was kinda wrong (not totally but mostly wrong)

So posters who believe that Aghanistan is or isn't part of the Akhand Bharat what's your reasoning ?

, why not, and China too.

 

[Bigboii]

Not really. All or parts of Afghanistan have been ruled by numerous Indian empires. For example:

The Indo-Greek Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

The Mauryan Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

The Maratha Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peshawar_(1758)

Afghanistan's history also included Vedic Gandhara and being one of the 16 mahajanapadas of ancient India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Vedic_Gandhara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Mahajanapada

Just curious, did you learn history in a Pakistani school?

My wording wasn't right but what I meant was that after Harapan civilization north India and Afghanistan didn't share a common ethnicity and whatever Indian influences that reached Afghanistan was mostly centered in Potohar and Peshawar valley region but failed to penetrate deep into Afghanistan unlike what was happening during Harrapan civilization (and also unlike what Persians did with Afghanistan)

Except for Mauryan's (even than they were not the same ethnic group) no Indian empire penetrated Afghanistan deep enough to leave a lasting cultural impact or bond between the two countries that we can put the whole of Afghanistan as "Indian"

And you cut the part where I said that after the Greek's Afghanistan basically became a Persian province and it was important because what I meant was that Greeks were the major reason for this divide between India and Afghanistan (after the central Asian nomads) because before Greeks Mauryan's controlled Afghanistan so some kind of cultural movement was going on but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed

(I also wanted to write how Indo-Greek empires weren't really Indian but this would go off-topic)

 

[Bigboii]

, why not, and China too.

they want Tibet so...

 

[Bhaijaan]

Geographic expansion in the biggest show of inferiority complex among sub continental men.

We should work hard to bring greater autonomy within the region rather

 

[Slog]

They want Afghanistan to be considered part of Akhand Bharat but at the same time consider Afghan invaders )

 

[Giannis]

mamoon would be in favor cause he loves india but he would feel conflicted as he claims his people have turkish and arab origins

 

[Nostalgic]

mamoon would be in favor cause he loves india but he would feel conflicted as he claims his people have turkish and arab origins

We could simply extend Akhand Bharat westwards to encompass all of Turkistan and Arabia...

 

[watson367]

lmao. What clowns.

 

[Napa]

My wording wasn't right but what I meant was that after Harapan civilization north India and Afghanistan didn't share a common ethnicity and whatever Indian influences that reached Afghanistan was mostly centered in Potohar and Peshawar valley region but failed to penetrate deep into Afghanistan unlike what was happening during Harrapan civilization (and also unlike what Persians did with Afghanistan)

Except for Mauryan's (even than they were not the same ethnic group) no Indian empire penetrated Afghanistan deep enough to leave a lasting cultural impact or bond between the two countries that we can put the whole of Afghanistan as "Indian"

And you cut the part where I said that after the Greek's Afghanistan basically became a Persian province and it was important because what I meant was that Greeks were the major reason for this divide between India and Afghanistan (after the central Asian nomads) because before Greeks Mauryan's controlled Afghanistan so some kind of cultural movement was going on but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed

(I also wanted to write how Indo-Greek empires weren't really Indian but this would go off-topic)

"but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed"

Your knowledge about these issues is limited. You seem to think that Persians and Greeks are more similar to each other than Indians.

In reality, modern "Persia", that is Iran has only a minority Greek or even old Persian heritage. Ancient India, Persia and Greece were ethnically close.

Iran was successively overrun by Arabs and Mongols, and the present population reflects those conquests. In the table below you can see that the modern Iranian population has R1a ancestry ranging from 0% to 20%. The R1 ancestry marks Indo-European heritage. In comparison R1 rises to up to 72% in different Indian communities. At the other end of the geographical expanse of the Indo-Europeans are the Irish who have about 90% R1b ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population

Arab, Turk etc. Y-chromosome haplogroups are relatively common in modern Iran.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes it should be part of Akhand Bharat, just need Indians to start telling Afghans that now. Modi should summon the Afghan diplomat in India and give him this message to take back to Kabul.

 

[Bigboii]

"but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed"

Your knowledge about these issues is limited. You seem to think that Persians and Greeks are more similar to each other than Indians.

In reality, modern "Persia", that is Iran has only a minority Greek or even old Persian heritage. Ancient India, Persia and Greece were ethnically close.

Iran was successively overrun by Arabs and Mongols, and the present population reflects those conquests. In the table below you can see that the modern Iranian population has R1a ancestry ranging from 0% to 20%. The R1 ancestry marks Indo-European heritage. In comparison R1 rises to up to 72% in different Indian communities. At the other end of the geographical expanse of the Indo-Europeans are the Irish who have about 90% R1b ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population

Arab, Turk etc. Y-chromosome haplogroups are relatively common in modern Iran.

Where I am saying that Greek and Persians are similar compared to anyone(please stop putting words into my mouth and actually read) that's stupid why would I say that (I don't know where I discussed the ethnicity of Greeks, Persians or even Indians for that matter I only mentioned the ethnicity of Afghans)

Achaemids controlled Afghanistan for a long time before greeks and thier invasions check
Than after Greeks Sassanids took over Afghanistan till the Arab invasion check (also Safavid)

That's 1000s of years of Persian rule of Afghanistan this will remove most of the "cultural influences" and make it Persianized
This is what I mean what I mean when I say "but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed"
Indian, Greek vaccum wasn't big to began with because Persia ruled Afghanistan for a long time but after Greeks no one (except for Persians) managed to control Afghanistan (deep enough) that they can leave a lasting cultural impact or even stop this persianization from taking place

I really think you should read what I am writing carefully than focusing on taking subtle digs...

And I am almost certain that you're wrong with your theory that 3000-4000 years ago
Greek and Ancient Indians were almost the same people ethnically or "close" (So much for taking digs at Pakistani education system, our neighbors aren't doing a good job either)

 

[Bigboii]

"but after Greeks the Indian vacuum was filled by Persia and 99% of the old Indian influences were removed"

Your knowledge about these issues is limited. You seem to think that Persians and Greeks are more similar to each other than Indians.

In reality, modern "Persia", that is Iran has only a minority Greek or even old Persian heritage. Ancient India, Persia and Greece were ethnically close.

Iran was successively overrun by Arabs and Mongols, and the present population reflects those conquests. In the table below you can see that the modern Iranian population has R1a ancestry ranging from 0% to 20%. The R1 ancestry marks Indo-European heritage. In comparison R1 rises to up to 72% in different Indian communities. At the other end of the geographical expanse of the Indo-Europeans are the Irish who have about 90% R1b ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population

Arab, Turk etc. Y-chromosome haplogroups are relatively common in modern Iran.

I feel like you are engaging in nitpicking of highest order without context a line out of a post means nothing and than you're using those single sentences to further propagate your biases

Cause I don't think I even remotely mentioned the ethnic makeup of Greeks or Persians but because of your preconceived notions that I would do so you took the conversation towards "ethnicity" which I hate doing cause imo culture trump's everything ethnicity means almost nothing

 

[sweep_shot]

There was no such thing called Akhand Bharat before partition. Indian subcontinent was divided into multiple kingdoms.

Also, I don't think Afghanistan should be considered as a part of Akhand Bharat (whatever it is).

 

[Napa]

And I am almost <b>certain</b> that you're wrong with your theory that 3000-4000 years ago Greek and Ancient Indians were almost the same people ethnically or "close"

If you want to know about the scientific opinions for these issues, read up about DNA mutations, Y-chromosome haplogroups, mitochondrial haplogroups and population genetics. There has been a lot of information we have gained about the ancestry of different modern populations in the last 20 years. Pay particular attention to the Y-chromosome F and R haplogroups.

 

[Pakpak]

I don't get it. They hate Muslims. Call them termites. What would they want with annexing three more Muslim countries with half a billion new Mulsims within them? If Bangladesh and Pakistan joined India the total Muslim population of India wouldn't be far from the Hindu population.

 

[Napa]

I don't get it. They hate Muslims. Call them termites. What would they want with annexing three more Muslim countries with half a billion new Mulsims within them? If Bangladesh and Pakistan joined India the total Muslim population of India wouldn't be far from the Hindu population.

"They" also believe that the populations of these countries will revert to the religions of their ancestors prior to their conversion to Islam.

"They" are less than 0.01% of Indians. It is a waste of time discussing "them", but it appears people have time to waste

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

But for thousands of years Afghanistan was basically a Persian province and before Ahmed Shah Durrani there was no "proper" Afghanistan it was basically "Persia"

Harrapan civilization was the only time when India and Afghanistan had contact but even than most sources say Afghanistan was a "colony" not a proper part of the Harrapan Civilization

And when they became Buddhists they were "persianized" (basically how Afghans are right know but with a lot more Persian influences) so if shared religion was the only requirement than this is a slippery slope because budhism is everywhere and even than it was a big part of east asian and asian countries

The Southern part of Afghanistan was more connected to the rest of the subcontinent than the Northern part. And for the Hindu Nationalist its about religion, that's the connection, not language. The same people of Afghanistan when they became Muslim, and invaded North India, they were viewed as foreign invaders. Had they been Hindu or Buddhist they would not have cared, and simply viewed them as Indian.

And linguistically Persian and Sanskrit are not only from the same language family, they are from the same branch of the language family. There is more in common with them any of the South Indian languages.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I don't get it. They hate Muslims. Call them termites. What would they want with annexing three more Muslim countries with half a billion new Mulsims within them? If Bangladesh and Pakistan joined India the total Muslim population of India wouldn't be far from the Hindu population.

The same way some Muslims support Ghazwa-e-Hind, where Muslims will rule the subcontinent, but they hate Hindus. They want the land but not the non Muslim people. Akhand Bharat types are the same way. They want the land but not the Muslim people.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Not really. All or parts of Afghanistan have been ruled by numerous Indian empires. For example:

The Indo-Greek Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

The Mauryan Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

The Maratha Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Peshawar_(1758)

Afghanistan's history also included Vedic Gandhara and being one of the 16 mahajanapadas of ancient India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Vedic_Gandhara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara#Mahajanapada

Just curious, did you learn history in a Pakistani school?

You left out the Mughals. They probably had the biggest impact.

 

[Bigboii]

If you want to know about the scientific opinions for these issues, read up about DNA mutations, Y-chromosome haplogroups, mitochondrial haplogroups and population genetics. There has been a lot of information we have gained about the ancestry of different modern populations in the last 20 years. Pay particular attention to the Y-chromosome F and R haplogroups.

Well I would want to see references for these Research if you can provide it. Secondly we need to define whether Akhand Bharat is based on Culture or ethnicity (specifically genetic ancestors)? Seems like you are conflating the two things. Yes there has been a lot of research into it but we can better address this of you can bring a scientific paper proving your claims. Cause to me it looks like you are just throwing my ABIO Genetics term at me. They don't mean anything without proper research paper. And if we go by this logic we share similarity to African and Europeans. So I don't think it is right to determine ethnicity through genetics. (Especially when someone is trying to claim territory through it) kinda reminds of me bunch of people who seized power in Germany in 1933.

 

[Lurker_Ind]

Afghans are too different from Indians. They do not look anything like Indians and their religion and customs are very different.
If Afghans ever return to Buddhism and Hinduism, then a case can be made. Otherwise Afghans should remain their own country forever.

 

[Khan12]

Lol. Bunch of clowns. The whole world belongs to them.

 

[Napa]

You left out the Mughals. They probably had the biggest impact.

Yes, the Mughals too. I wrote "For example"

 

[Napa]

Well I would want to see references for these Research if you can provide it. Secondly we need to define whether Akhand Bharat is based on Culture or ethnicity (specifically genetic ancestors)? Seems like you are conflating the two things. Yes there has been a lot of research into it but we can better address this of you can bring a scientific paper proving your claims. Cause to me it looks like you are just throwing my ABIO Genetics term at me. They don't mean anything without proper research paper. And if we go by this logic we share similarity to African and Europeans. So I don't think it is right to determine ethnicity through genetics. (Especially when someone is trying to claim territory through it) kinda reminds of me bunch of people who seized power in Germany in 1933.

Just look at Wikipedia or do a Google search. There are many articles published in scientific journals that provide the haplogroup percentages of modern populations.

 

[Bigboii]

Just look at Wikipedia or do a Google search. There are many articles published in scientific journals that provide the haplogroup percentages of modern populations.

So I looked around but there was no evidence that 3000 to 4000 years ago Ancient Indians were similar to Greek people in ethnic make up

They just showed that Indians were Dravidian and Aryan/Central Asian migration just started to happen or was in its initial stages

And if we look at Greeks most of the migration happened from Anatolia

If you are taking about Indo-European migration theory than theirs a problem

1- These migrations were just starting to happen or at least they weren't in their peak the time period we are operating in
2- At no point in history these migrations were big enough in numbers that we became similar to ancient Greeks in ethnic makeup
if there was a time that these Indo-European were the majority in India than we would be 70 to 80% indo-european not 5- 20% like we are right know
This shows that Dravidian's (people native to India) were always the majority in India and these people had no connection to Greece except if we go back straight to Africa

So if majority of people in India were Dravidian (also proven by our ethnic makeup in this day and age) than this disqualifies any chance that ever in history an average person from ancient India was similar to a person from ancient Greece

Yes this Indo- European culture was the dominant culture but this doesn't translate into ethnicity

 

[Napa]

So I looked around but there was no evidence that 3000 to 4000 years ago Ancient Indians were similar to Greek people in ethnic make up

They just showed that Indians were Dravidian and Aryan/Central Asian migration just started to happen or was in its initial stages

And if we look at Greeks most of the migration happened from Anatolia

If you are taking about Indo-European migration theory than theirs a problem

1- These migrations were just starting to happen or at least they weren't in their peak the time period we are operating in
2- At no point in history these migrations were big enough in numbers that we became similar to ancient Greeks in ethnic makeup
if there was a time that these Indo-European were the majority in India than we would be 70 to 80% indo-european not 5- 20% like we are right know
This shows that Dravidian's (people native to India) were always the majority in India and these people had no connection to Greece except if we go back straight to Africa

So if majority of people in India were Dravidian (also proven by our ethnic makeup in this day and age) than this disqualifies any chance that ever in history an average person from ancient India was similar to a person from ancient Greece

Yes this Indo- European culture was the dominant culture but this doesn't translate into ethnicity

History stretches back a lot longer than 3K to 4K. The shared ancestry of the Indo-European people is based on the relative frequencies of the R1 Y-chromosome haplogroup in modern populations. Earlier there was a hypothesis about shared ancestry based on languages derived from the Proto-Indo-European language, and this was confirmed by modern population genetics.

 

[Lurker_Ind]

India has trouble helping its own citizens from poverty. Why would they want some other war torn country?

 

[msaaim89]

India has trouble helping its own citizens from poverty. Why would they want some other war torn country?

Ask the orange fundamentalists? They want the land, not the people.

 

[Bigboii]

History stretches back a lot longer than 3K to 4K. The shared ancestry of the Indo-European people is based on the relative frequencies of the R1 Y-chromosome haplogroup in modern populations. Earlier there was a hypothesis about shared ancestry based on languages derived from the Proto-Indo-European language, and this was confirmed by modern population genetics.

History also goes back to Africa should we be discussing the relationship between Africans and Indians? hopefully you get my point

All our discussion was focused on 3000 to 4000 year and to quote you, you originally said "Ancient India, Persia and Greece were ethnically close"

So this is what my point was that No they were not ethnically close yes they have partially shared ancestry but their was no point in history that we can say people of India or Greece were same or eve close ethnically,genetically

They only have shared ancestor and that too partially