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Should the India versus England 3rd Test pitch be rated poor or unfit? Rated Average

 
There's a podcast of Nasser, Atherton, Key and that Sky guy.

The first two agree it was a tough pitch but lay into Key when he tries to sell it as a poor pitch. They also agree that it was definitely not worthy of such low scores.

Nasser once again makes the point that this Indian team should not be compared with the previous era wrt their spin-playing abilities. Like he has been saying for a while now.

And with that, I'm out of this topic. It was fun :afridi1
 
pillionrider said:
There's a podcast of Nasser, Atherton, Key and that Sky guy.

The first two agree it was a tough pitch but lay into Key when he tries to sell it as a poor pitch. They also agree that it was definitely not worthy of such low scores.

Nasser once again makes the point that this Indian team should not be compared with the previous era wrt their spin-playing abilities. Like he has been saying for a while now.

And with that, I'm out of this topic. It was fun :afridi1
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Yeah, our spin playing abilities have gone down the drain. Is it due to too much T20 cricket these days?
 
pillionrider said:
There's a podcast of Nasser, Atherton, Key and that Sky guy.

The first two agree it was a tough pitch but lay into Key when he tries to sell it as a poor pitch. They also agree that it was definitely not worthy of such low scores.

Nasser once again makes the point that this Indian team should not be compared with the previous era wrt their spin-playing abilities. Like he has been saying for a while now.

And with that, I'm out of this topic. It was fun :afridi1
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Nasser also said that the pitch was 'poor' but batting was worse.
He even called the 2nd test pitch bad as well.
 
Ashmal said:
Nasser also said that the pitch was 'poor' but batting was worse.
He even called the 2nd test pitch bad as well.
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Key was trying to sell the pitch as being 'poor' as per ICC definitions which Hussain and Atherton were having none of. The latter even mocked Key's attempts calling him a stickler :) They also raised Rohit's 150 and Ashwin's 100 in Chennai when he tried to palm that off as a "poor" (ICC definition) pitch too.
 
MP2011 said:
Yeah, our spin playing abilities have gone down the drain. Is it due to too much T20 cricket these days?
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I think I remember a period where India changed the nature of domestic pitches to favour pacers in an attempt to help upcoming batsmen perform better on away tours. Away performances had started to become an obsession under Ganguly and this might have had an effect on the current batsmen.
 
pillionrider said:
Key was trying to sell the pitch as being 'poor' as per ICC definitions which Hussain and Atherton were having none of. The latter even mocked Key's attempts calling him a stickler :) They also raised Rohit's 150 and Ashwin's 100 in Chennai when he tried to palm that off as a "poor" (ICC definition) pitch too.
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Yeah Key was going way overboard
 
I dont really know what to make of this tbh. Two day test match? Ive got to say if this is the standard of batting then I cant see test cricket being favoured by the big three.

If your missing straight deliveries, not knuckling down, no use of the feet, rubbish defence and then pocketing millions in t20 leagues, well then I would suggest you stop playing test cricket.

There is something to say when a part timer like Root gets bags of wickets and when a top class batsman like pujara gets out to Leech. I thought Kohli made a stupid mistake and Gill was brainless.

Just a weird test match...I can see what the Indians did though, make a turner (which is not abnormal in India) hope your home batsman can play the england spinners much better and then destroy england. Problem was the Home teams batters were just as bad and hence why we got a two day match..

I suspect Sachin, inzi, dravid and co would have made decent runs on this..or would they???
 
The wickets are poor, and have spoilt a good contest. Even with decent wickets, Ind would have won the series, i expected 4-0, it looks like it will 3-1.
 
We shouldn't defend this pitch. It is not a good wicket but the way England played they would have lost on any regular Indian wicket.
 
the Great Khan said:
I dont really know what to make of this tbh. Two day test match? Ive got to say if this is the standard of batting then I cant see test cricket being favoured by the big three.

If your missing straight deliveries, not knuckling down, no use of the feet, rubbish defence and then pocketing millions in t20 leagues, well then I would suggest you stop playing test cricket.

There is something to say when a part timer like Root gets bags of wickets and when a top class batsman like pujara gets out to Leech. I thought Kohli made a stupid mistake and Gill was brainless.

Just a weird test match...I can see what the Indians did though, make a turner (which is not abnormal in India) hope your home batsman can play the england spinners much better and then destroy england. Problem was the Home teams batters were just as bad and hence why we got a two day match..

I suspect Sachin, inzi, dravid and co would have made decent runs on this..or would they???
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It was a turner no doubt, seems like the Indian curators rolled out a very dry wicket to even out the advantage the seamers get with the pink ball under the lights but what they probably didn't realise is that the pink ball, at least the SG variant, seems to be more lethal on a turning wicket than a normal red ball because of the ball skidding on quicker due to the extra coatings of lacquer and prouder seam.

A normal red ball even on a turning wicket, would get worn out easily after sometime and batting would get relatively easier (it's why Ashwin made a century on day 3 last test coming in at 8) but this harder pink ball with its more prominent seam, seems to grip, turn and bounce more and skid on from the surface faster than the red ball. If Indian curators roll out a turner for the next pink ball test in India expecting it to be a 300 par wicket, get ready for more 2 day tests.
 
street cricketer said:
It was a turner no doubt, seems like the Indian curators rolled out a very dry wicket to even out the advantage the seamers get with the pink ball under the lights but what they probably didn't realise is that the pink ball, at least the SG variant, seems to be more lethal on a turning wicket than a normal red ball because of the ball skidding on quicker due to the extra coatings of lacquer and prouder seam.

A normal red ball even on a turning wicket, would get worn out easily after sometime and batting would get relatively easier (it's why Ashwin made a century on day 3 last test coming in at 8) but this harder pink ball with its more prominent seam, seems to grip, turn and bounce more and skid on from the surface faster than the red ball. If Indian curators roll out a turner for the next pink ball test in India expecting it to be a 300 par wicket, get ready for more 2 day tests.
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Good observation. Perhaps a review of Pink ball tests in this part of the world needs to be conducted. Perhaps they can play some domestic games with the pink ball?

Also Englands selection was a bit weird too. No Dom Bess?? weird
 
I do not idolize cricketers anymore, especially Indian cricketers and i stay true to my words as far as my retirement as a crciket fan is concerned.

But, i will, from time to time, make cameo appearances like these to have a say in topics that go beyond cricketing talk, into the realm of character and sportsman spirit.

Also, as a policy sake, i will try my best to close my case in solitary post only and will not engage in constant chit-chat over opinions because i have no intention to debate with anyone on Cricket. A game played by spineless and characterless people, at least in my country.

So here is my take on the Ahmedabad test :-
It was a pathetic surface and a national embarrassment. It is further more hurtful given how it ruined the historic unveiling of our state of the art giant stadium.This test match will now be remembered for all the wrong reasons much like the forgettable Mumbai test match 2004 vs Australia.
Much like in public life, like how a lot of people previously thought to be neutral, secular have now passively shown their fascist face to the society, a lot of the cricket fans also have proven themselves to be nothing but arrogant, glory hunting little kids masuerading as genuine cricket lovers. You don't have to be an Indian, English or Pakistan to say this pitch is *****. I like moments like these when people's real faces are revealed. India is a great cricket nation. Dominant at home. They do not need to stoop to this level and then shamelessly defend it in order win at home. Stop embarrasing yourselves. I hope the ICC rightfully grades this pitch poor and penalizes India for it but that seems unlikely given the lack of spine.
 
Pakhs said:
The Pitch is unfit and match will be over well under 2 days.
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Unfit lol.. it might be a poor pitch but it didn't have variable bounce.. and it looks worse combined by poor techniques and pink ball .
 
Nothing yet from ICC.

Don't hold your breath.

If the ICC were to dare to declare the pitch poor, I'm sure the BCCI would put the England squad on the next plane to Heathrow.
 
street cricketer said:
It was a turner no doubt, seems like the Indian curators rolled out a very dry wicket to even out the advantage the seamers get with the pink ball under the lights but what they probably didn't realise is that the pink ball, at least the SG variant, seems to be more lethal on a turning wicket than a normal red ball because of the ball skidding on quicker due to the extra coatings of lacquer and prouder seam.

A normal red ball even on a turning wicket, would get worn out easily after sometime and batting would get relatively easier (it's why Ashwin made a century on day 3 last test coming in at 8) but this harder pink ball with its more prominent seam, seems to grip, turn and bounce more and skid on from the surface faster than the red ball. If Indian curators roll out a turner for the next pink ball test in India expecting it to be a 300 par wicket, get ready for more 2 day tests.
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Basically this.

At first glance, it did not seem to be any worse than the pitch for the 2nd Test in Chennai. That is why England played only 1 spinner unlike Chennai.

But its the pink ball that may have made the difference. Root and Rohit also said something to this effect in the post match press conference.
 
"Honestly, I think that ball had quite a big factor in this wicket. I think the plastic quoting on it and the hardness of the seam compared to the red SG ball, meant that it almost gathered pace off the wicket if it did not hit the seam... and because of the nature that it gathered pace off the wicket, I think that had a big part to play in things. Credit to Axar in particular, he utilized and exploited that exceptionally well," Root said in the post-match press conference.
 
https://www.cricketcountry.com/news/india-vs-england-mohammed-azharuddin-slams-english-batsmen-for-wearing-spikes-on-motera-pitch-971891

Following the Motera horror show, the English team has faced immense backlash, and former India captain Mohammed Azharuddin is the latest to take a jibe at the tourists. Azharuddin said it was not pleasant to see batsmen “come a cropper” in the third Test between India and England in Ahmedabad, which ended in a 10-wicket win for India on Thursday.

Taking to Twitter, a day after India’s win Azhar said that the English batsmen could have used rubber soles rather than opting for spikes on the Motera strip. The former India skipper also pointed out that batsmen in the past like Sunil Gavaskar have succeeded in playing with rubber soles.

He tweeted: “It was disappointing to watch the batsmen come a cropper in the Ahmedabad Test.The key to batting on such dry tracks and rank turners is shot-selection and assured footwork. It makes little sense to wear spikes when batting. Rubber soles don’t hamper the ability of batsmen.”

His second tweet: “I have seen some amazing Test knocks being played on tough surfaces by batsmen who wore shoes with rubber soles. The argument that batsmen can slip when running between wickets is countered by the fact that in Wimbledon, all tennis players wear shoes with rubber soles.”

And the last tweet: “And the ones that come to mind are not just Indians like Sunil Gavaskar Mohinder Amarnath and Dilip Vengsarkar but also many a visiting batsman like Sir Vivian Richards, Mike Gatting Allan Border, Clive Lloyd, and several others.”

With the fourth and final Test scheduled to be played at the same venue, it would be interesting to see if the English batsmen opt for rubber soles. India leads the four-match Test series 2-1.
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the Great Khan said:
I suspect Sachin, inzi, dravid and co would have made decent runs on this..or would they???
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Dravid would grind out runs.

Sachin would innovate by doing something crazy like playing the paddle sweep (or his trademarked vertical version of it) to the ball turning away. Just because he suddenly decided that the conventional sweep shot is risky.

Inzy would probably take a couple of heavy steps down and smash an Axar to oblivion.

Ashwin will bounce back in his next spell, but someone like Axar who is basically a consistent and accurate bowler can be comfortably taken out by someone with some guts...

Last Monetarist said:
...it would be interesting to see if the English batsmen opt for rubber soles
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...and not a rubber spine :afridi1
 
MP2011 said:
Considering you're calling current Indian batsmen best players of spin bowling shows how much you actually know about Indian cricket. We're pathetic players of spin as the innocuous spinners like Moeen, Elgar, Keefe etc will attest to.
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Oh really? Then tell me who are the best players of spin in the world?

South Africa? Australia? West Indies?
 
BreadPakoda said:
Pitch was poor but I just saw the highlights and I doubt Ishant, Bumrah, etc. are the best players of spin in the world.
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Ishant went not out. And he took the wickets of Pant and Ashwin too who have been among India's star players in this series.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Ishant went not out. And he took the wickets of Pant and Ashwin too who have been among India's star players in this series.
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Ashwin struck some form after a long time. He is still a lower order batsman. He can get out cheaply too. That is what he had been doing until the Australia test. Pant can get out to any bowler any time. That is the nature of his game.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Nobody. Except few individuals most guys struggle. Even Smith looked very awkward against Ashwin in Australia.
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Lol what a joke. India are the best players of spin in the world which is why they produce spinning tracks, and why they have been destroying teams at home even when they had a glorified minnow side in the 90s. India have produced worse wickets in the past against South Africa in 2015, and even on those wickets Indian batsmen looked a million times better than the South Africans.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Ashwin struck some form after a long time. He is still a lower order batsman. He can get out cheaply too. That is what he had been doing until the Australia test. Pant can get out to any bowler any time. That is the nature of his game.
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Underplaying every single thing just seems silly when you're 2-1 up in the series and just destroyed the opposition twice on rank turners.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Lol what a joke. India are the best players of spin in the world which is why they produce spinning tracks, and why they have been destroying teams at home even when they had a glorified minnow side in the 90s. India have produced worse wickets in the past against South Africa in 2015, and even on those wickets Indian batsmen looked a million times better than the South Africans.
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The reason INdia was good because they would play domestic cricket from time to time. Current players have no time to play domestic. When Kohli came on to scene he handled Mendis/Ajmal and other spinners like nobody's business. He was far too effortless. He has regressed badly against spin. Rahane is a joke against spin. Even Pujara who used to be a monster even on turning track is not the same anymore. What makes you think spinners wree the stars against South Africans. Sure they took more wickets. But Jaddu averaged 30. Ashwin averaged 25. It was Shami and Umesh who did the damage. India's seamers have been outstanding in home series like never before in history. Even Ishant has been very good.

Ashwin 15 wickets 25.26 averag
Jadeja 13 wickets 30.69 average
Shami 13 wickets 14.76 avge
Umesh 11 wickets 12.18 avge
 
90s Indian side were wayyyyy better players of spin than the current crop.

Actually that was the one thing they were world class in.

They would humiliate top class spinners while this current crop would get humiliated by average spinners.

Even in the 2018 series, Indians were struggling against Lyon.

Mayank after playing domestics was brought on, took on Lyon and smashed him. Then everyone else started playing him better.

I bet domestic bats will be better players than spin than Indian international bats.

Even Manjrekar used to talk about this as to how his spin playing ability went out of touch and when he went back to domestics, he was struggling against domestic spinners and it took him a while to get it right.

Even in this series, Pujara (who actually is the ONE batsman who spins well) has been exhibiting ATROCIOUS technique.

Check his 2 dismissals of Jack Leach.

Shockingly poor execution.

This is from a guy who played peak Swann and Monty on a raging turner in 2012.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Underplaying every single thing just seems silly when you're 2-1 up in the series and just destroyed the opposition twice on rank turners.
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Actually you are underplaying the ineptness of England for 5 innings in a row. You are merely blaming everything on the pitch downplaying the quality of Indian spinners and poor batting technique of England. They had turners in SL too.But good bowlers were not there to exploit. Ashwin dismissed Sangakkara 4 times in a row in SL. You think he will have problem against these batsmen? Root has a fantastic record in India.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
The reason INdia was good because they would play domestic cricket from time to time. Current players have no time to play domestic. When Kohli came on to scene he handled Mendis/Ajmal and other spinners like nobody's business. He was far too effortless. He has regressed badly against spin. Rahane is a joke against spin. Even Pujara who used to be a monster even on turning track is not the same anymore. What makes you think spinners wree the stars against South Africans. Sure they took more wickets. But Jaddu averaged 30. Ashwin averaged 25. It was Shami and Umesh who did the damage. India's seamers have been outstanding in home series like never before in history. Even Ishant has been very good.

Ashwin 15 wickets 25.26 averag
Jadeja 13 wickets 30.69 average
Shami 13 wickets 14.76 avge
Umesh 11 wickets 12.18 avge
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I think you need to go back and look at the numbers again. Ashwin took 31 wickets in that series at an average of 11, Jadeja took 23 at 10.8. And while you're there be sure to check ICC's poor rating of the Nagpur pitch. Be sure to read the part where they said:

"The pitch offers excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match"

Also, the fact that you are saying Pujara is not the same player of spin after one bad series at home tells me what you know abut cricket.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
The reason INdia was good because they would play domestic cricket from time to time. Current players have no time to play domestic. When Kohli came on to scene he handled Mendis/Ajmal and other spinners like nobody's business. He was far too effortless. He has regressed badly against spin. Rahane is a joke against spin. Even Pujara who used to be a monster even on turning track is not the same anymore. What makes you think spinners wree the stars against South Africans. Sure they took more wickets. But Jaddu averaged 30. Ashwin averaged 25. It was Shami and Umesh who did the damage. India's seamers have been outstanding in home series like never before in history. Even Ishant has been very good.

Ashwin 15 wickets 25.26 averag
Jadeja 13 wickets 30.69 average
Shami 13 wickets 14.76 avge
Umesh 11 wickets 12.18 avge
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I wrote my post and then saw yours haha.

Agreed.

He is referring to the 2015 series tho.

What he doesn't realize is that even in that series, it was Vijay and Pujara who scored the tough runs while others flopped.

Then Rahane scored 2 hundreds in a dead rubber where the pitch had something for pacers in the first innings before going flat.

That series is the perfect example of how pathetic Indian spin playing ability is.

Even in 2016 Eng series on FLAT tracks, India was in trouble multiple times against Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid :)) before the lower order of Ashwin, Jaddu, Jayant would bail us out.

Yes we scored lots of runs but we also were in dangerous situations in the 5 tests before clawing our way out of it.

Posters either are not realizing how mediocre India is with playing spin or they are just seeing what they want to see.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think you need to go back and look at the numbers again. Ashwin took 31 wickets in that series at an average of 11, Jadeja took 23 at 10.8. And while you're there be sure to check ICC ruling on the Nagpur pitch. Be sure to read the part where they said:

"The pitch offers excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match"

Also, the fact that you are saying Pujara is not the same player of spin after one bad series at home tells me what you know abut cricket.
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After one test? He has been struggling against spin for a while.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I wrote my post and then saw yours haha.

Agreed.

He is referring to the 2015 series tho.

What he doesn't realize is that even in that series, it was Vijay and Pujara who scored the tough runs while others flopped.

Then Rahane scored 2 hundreds in a dead rubber where the pitch had something for pacers in the first innings before going flat.

That series is the perfect example of how pathetic Indian spin playing ability is.

Even in 2016 Eng series on FLAT tracks, India was in trouble multiple times against Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid :)) before the lower order of Ashwin, Jaddu, Jayant would bail us out.

Yes we scored lots of runs but we also were in dangerous situations in the 5 tests before clawing our way out of it.

Posters either are not realizing how mediocre India is with playing spin or they are just seeing what they want to see.
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.
Okeefe memory is a nightmare. Then that Lyon's 8fer. Moeen Ali series clinching spells in England. Most of the time Kohli lost his wicket to a spinner at a crucial moment.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Actually you are underplaying the ineptness of England for 5 innings in a row. You are merely blaming everything on the pitch downplaying the quality of Indian spinners and poor batting technique of England. They had turners in SL too.But good bowlers were not there to exploit. Ashwin dismissed Sangakkara 4 times in a row in SL. You think he will have problem against these batsmen? Root has a fantastic record in India.
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The ineptness argument only works when one side fails and the other does incredibly well, my friend. But India were cleaned up for 145 aswell and had an even worse collapse than England losing their last 7 for 31 runs.

This argument may have been valid for Chennai, but it isn't valid for Ahmedabad.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think you need to go back and look at the numbers again. Ashwin took 31 wickets in that series at an average of 11, Jadeja took 23 at 10.8. And while you're there be sure to check ICC's poor rating of the Nagpur pitch. Be sure to read the part where they said:

"The pitch offers excessive assistance to spin bowlers, especially early in the match"

Also, the fact that you are saying Pujara is not the same player of spin after one bad series at home tells me what you know abut cricket.
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Pujara has been averaging 30s since the Aus 2018 series.

35 average at home (this includes flat tracks against SA too) across 11 tests.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...8;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Buddy, you are so quick to accuse others without understanding what point they really are trying to make.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
[/B]

Pujara has been averaging 30s since the Aus 2018 series.

35 average at home (this includes flat tracks against SA too) across 11 tests.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...8;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Buddy, you are so quick to accuse others without understanding what point they really are trying to make.
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As a fan of India we know the form of players as we are emotionally connected to their form. THeir failures irate us. It leaves a mark. It is not the same for someone who don't follow Indian cricket as much as Indian fans. That is why they are off the mark most of the time. That is why i don't rate my opinion about Pak players as much as a Pak fan's opinion. They probably know better as they are connected emotionally.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
As a fan of India we know the form of players as we are emotionally connected to their form. THeir failures irate us. It leaves a mark. It is not the same for someone who don't follow Indian cricket as much as Indian fans. That is why they are off the mark most of the time. That is why i don't rate my opinion about Pak players as much as a Pak fan's opinion. They probably know better as they are connected emotionally.
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You are right.

Which is why this issue becomes worse as perceptions stick on.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
[/B]

Pujara has been averaging 30s since the Aus 2018 series.

35 average at home (this includes flat tracks against SA too) across 11 tests.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...8;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Buddy, you are so quick to accuse others without understanding what point they really are trying to make.
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Oh you mean the series in which he averaged 57, was India's leading run-scorer and scored runs on difficult rank-turning tracks like Bangalore?

Here are Pujara's series averages for the home series he has played since the 2017/18 Australia series.


57.80 vs Sri Lanka
48 vs West Indies
36.25 vs South Africa
54.50 vs Bangladesh

I stand corrected he has had two bad series since then.

But remember bro, you gotta slice and dice the stats. Can't lift things you hear on TV and plant them here. Also, please stop thinking that just because someone is not an Indian cricket fan therefore you can look down on them. Pujara's series numbers prove he is just human and is prone to having one or two bad series like everyone.

But to say he is not one of the best players of spin in the world and India who have Rohit, Virat and Pujara in their top 4 are not the best team against spin in the world just betrays common sense.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
As a fan of India we know the form of players as we are emotionally connected to their form. THeir failures irate us. It leaves a mark. It is not the same for someone who don't follow Indian cricket as much as Indian fans. That is why they are off the mark most of the time. That is why i don't rate my opinion about Pak players as much as a Pak fan's opinion. They probably know better as they are connected emotionally.
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Your problem is that you have automatically assumed that just because someone is not an Indian cricket fan therefore it isn't possible for them to know about Indian cricket. That just because you watch Pakistan cricket from afar therefore every Pakistan fan must follow Indian cricket from afar too.

Sorry to break it to you but I have been watching Indian cricket for quite some time. Just like I have been watching New Zealand cricket, Australian cricket and South African cricket. Which is probably why I knew that Ashwin and Jadeja ran over South Africa at home in 2015, whereas you thought they averaged 25 and 30 in the series.
 
That Karachi wicket worse than any pitches in this series. Only thing is it was so slow that even when the ball was acuttling through, batsmen had time to react. Otherwise, there was plenty of variable bounce by day 2 itself and made for awful viewing. If that wasnt rated poor, not sure why these pitches should be.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Oh really? Then tell me who are the best players of spin in the world?

South Africa? Australia? West Indies?
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Is it a necessity to annoint someone best players of spin when everything over last few years point out to the contrary?

I mean why do you want to call Indian players best players of spin? Spin playing ability is not something god given right that it can be bestowed upon Indian batsmen.

Previous Indian batsmen earned this ability by playing in domestic games on turners and not by playing T20s on super flat pattas day in and day out which today's Indian batsmen do.

We are not exactly happy with the way our cricket is going considering the resources we have at our disposal but still reasonably happy.

Don't bestow this undeserving tag of best players of spin on us just to prove your point.
 
As for best players of spin, I think England's batsmen play spin far better than our batsmen. Only thing which set them back over last 2 tests is that they faced a borderline ATG, Ashwin and a totally unknown commodity Axar while our bats had to face the likes of Leach, Moeen and Root during last 2 tests.

I just shudder to think what harakiri our bats would have committed had they faced Ash-Axar in last 2 tests.
 
From other countries, I think Pakistan bats play spin far better than ours.

SL and SA are as bad as us in their spin playing ability.
 
MP2011 said:
From other countries, I think Pakistan bats play spin far better than ours.

SL and SA are as bad as us in their spin playing ability.
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Maybe during Younis era but no longer the same. Babar is average Vs left arm spin and other batters are also bad Vs spin.

The last 2-3 years has been Pakistan's arguably worst batting lineup in a long time with no half decent openers, a good batsman in Azhar Ali, a very good bat in Babar and a good bat in Rizwan. That's about it.
 
Ab Fan said:
Maybe during Younis era but no longer the same. Babar is average Vs left arm spin and other batters are also bad Vs spin.

The last 2-3 years has been Pakistan's arguably worst batting lineup in a long time with no half decent openers, a good batsman in Azhar Ali, a very good bat in Babar and a good bat in Rizwan. That's about it.
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I'm not talking about their overall batting abilities but their spin playing competence which I think is better than ours.
 
Poor. I was looking forward to this test series, but India killed it by producing these dust bowls where Root picked up a fifer for fun. India are a great team and they just beat Australia in Australia, so no need to chicken out against England and prepare a pitch where the match finishes in two days.
 
Poor pitch, Now expect England to dish out pitch with 20 cm grass for India return tour.
 
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the Great Khan said:
Problem was the Home teams batters were just as bad and hence why we got a two day match..

I suspect Sachin, inzi, dravid and co would have made decent runs on this..or would they???
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Pitch was horrendous but home team batters were not as bad as England's. They made the same runs losing half the number of wickets. Gill and Rohit used their feet well in the 4th innings and looked at ease.
 
Think it's fair to acknowledge two things:

That the current lot of Indian batsmen are not a patch on some of the past Indian batsmen like Sidhu, Azhar, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, etc. But tbh the guys I have mentioned above are possibly among the best ever players of spin in cricket history, Warne and Murali average around 40 in India for a reason. So to use that as a reason to say the current Indian batsmen are poor players of spin is a stretch, they're just not as good as their predecessors.

Among the current lot, only Rahane is embarrassing against spin. I was awestruck by how Gill played Lyon with ease in his debut series. He was well forward or well back in his crease and I still remember Lyon's reaction when Gill played an inside out cover drive against the spin to Lyon while seeing out the day till stumps.

Rohit has had his struggles against spin even in the IPL for example, but he has suddenly made a transformation from being a flat track bully to a minefield bully.

Kohli's game against spin is distinct by the absence of the sweep shot in his arsenal, but he still is a decent enough player of spin and not as bad as people think he is against spin.

Pujara is arguably the world's best player of spin. And I'm sure Vihari can manage spin well given he averages something like 60 in Ranji trophy.

I would say there had been a distinct decline in spin playing abilities in world cricket and apart from few guys like Root, majority of the players from outside Asia, even the star players like Stokes and De Kock struggle against quality spin.
 
How can the pitch be poor when India got to 49/0 without a sweat in their second innings?
 
England head coach Chris Silverwood rejected talks of lodging any formal complaint to the ICC regarding the Motera pitch but said he had expected the surface to hold up a little longer after his team lost the third Test against India inside two days.

The Motera pitch came in for sharp criticism from some former players after England were bowled out for 112 and 81 in the two innings as India crushed them by 10 wickets to grab a 2-1 lead in the four-match Test series. The likes of Sunil Gavaskar, however, credited the spinners rather than blaming the pitch.

"First and foremost, just to follow up from what Joe (Root) said yesterday, he got five for 8, but at the same time whatever the pitch did or didn't do, India ultimately played better than us on that surface, probably pushed us to the extremes of which our players haven't experienced before," he said during a virtual press conference.

"We did expect the wicket to hold up a little longer than it did," he added.

Asked if England will lodge a formal complaint to the ICC, Silverwood said: "Listen, we will be talking about some things behind the scene obviously, but at the same time, we were really disappointed that we lost with three days left ... But unfortunately the game did finish, we are where we are.

"So, from my point of view now it is heading to the next game and how do we make amends and make sure we come up fighting and draw the series." The final Test begins here on March 4.

Asked to elaborate what he meant by behind the scene discussions, the coach said: "We have spoken to Javagal (Srinath, match referee) but not about the pitch. I think Joe and I gonna sit down for a conversation about it really and see where it goes.

"We have to accept that we have to get better on this pitches, there are places where we could improve. You look at the first innings we had opportunity to score more runs and make the best use of the pitch."

Probed further if there will be any formal complaint, Silverwood said: "I am not going into that conversation, it is something me and Joe have to talk about." While India went with three spinners, England opted for just one in Jack Leach for the day-night pink ball Test.

"Joe got 5 for 8 so the second spinner did fine for us," Silverwood said.

"Looking back in history in pink-ball Tests, the ball swung for us, Jimmy and all got movement during practice. With experience we had and having two of our bowlers in the top 10 in the ranking, we felt with this pink ball, it would have been an opportunity for seamers to make an impact for us."

Talking about the possible type of pitch for the fourth and final Test, Silverwood said: "I would like the pitch in the fourth Test to be a bit flatter, it would suit our game plan. But we will see what the wicket looks like in the coming days and we will take it from there really."

Silverwood also gave credit to Indian spin duo of Ravichandran Ashwin and Axar Patel and said the experience of playing on such difficult conditions will help England in future.

"Gotta give their spinners some credit, obviously Ashwin is a world class spinner, second fastest to 400 wickets which is fantastic, we are up against a class act, and secondly Patel, he was very accurate, I mean, to hit the middle stumps in first ball to me shows how accurate he is," he said.

"So when some balls turn and some don't, it is difficult. But we have to find a way, but I think the experience will hold us in good stead. It is not just our batsmen who struggled, if you look at the number of LBWs that India got out."

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cric...-cricket-chris-silverwood/article33944360.ece
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Oh really? Then tell me who are the best players of spin in the world?

South Africa? Australia? West Indies?
Click to expand...

Spin playing capability of this generation isnt great. Neither Indians nor anyone else. Yes someone will play a Smith or Rohit or Kohli like innings once in a while, but on a regular basis they are far behind the Indian fab 5,Kallis,Inzy,KP,Lara etc.
 
street cricketer said:
Think it's fair to acknowledge two things:

That the current lot of Indian batsmen are not a patch on some of the past Indian batsmen like Sidhu, Azhar, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, etc. But tbh the guys I have mentioned above are possibly among the best ever players of spin in cricket history, Warne and Murali average around 40 in India for a reason. So to use that as a reason to say the current Indian batsmen are poor players of spin is a stretch, they're just not as good as their predecessors.

Among the current lot, only Rahane is embarrassing against spin. I was awestruck by how Gill played Lyon with ease in his debut series. He was well forward or well back in his crease and I still remember Lyon's reaction when Gill played an inside out cover drive against the spin to Lyon while seeing out the day till stumps.

Rohit has had his struggles against spin even in the IPL for example, but he has suddenly made a transformation from being a flat track bully to a minefield bully.

Kohli's game against spin is distinct by the absence of the sweep shot in his arsenal, but he still is a decent enough player of spin and not as bad as people think he is against spin.

Pujara is arguably the world's best player of spin. And I'm sure Vihari can manage spin well given he averages something like 60 in Ranji trophy.

I would say there had been a distinct decline in spin playing abilities in world cricket and apart from few guys like Root, majority of the players from outside Asia, even the star players like Stokes and De Kock struggle against quality spin.
Click to expand...

No not even close.He used to be but not now
 
MP2011 said:
As for best players of spin, I think England's batsmen play spin far better than our batsmen. Only thing which set them back over last 2 tests is that they faced a borderline ATG, Ashwin and a totally unknown commodity Axar while our bats had to face the likes of Leach, Moeen and Root during last 2 tests.

I just shudder to think what harakiri our bats would have committed had they faced Ash-Axar in last 2 tests.
Click to expand...

All said and done i would cut some slack for these guys. This is a rookie side. Look at top 3. Top 3 generally decides the fate of a team in India. They are highly inexperienced. They heavily rely on Root. Stokes has been Ashwin's bunny. Pope looked decent. But they were preoccupied with sweeping everything which was dead wrong. Overall this team completely depended on Root given their rotation policy.
 
MP2011 said:
Is it a necessity to annoint someone best players of spin when everything over last few years point out to the contrary?

I mean why do you want to call Indian players best players of spin? Spin playing ability is not something god given right that it can be bestowed upon Indian batsmen.

Previous Indian batsmen earned this ability by playing in domestic games on turners and not by playing T20s on super flat pattas day in and day out which today's Indian batsmen do.

We are not exactly happy with the way our cricket is going considering the resources we have at our disposal but still reasonably happy.

Don't bestow this undeserving tag of best players of spin on us just to prove your point.
Click to expand...

cricketjoshila said:
Spin playing capability of this generation isnt great. Neither Indians nor anyone else. Yes someone will play a Smith or Rohit or Kohli like innings once in a while, but on a regular basis they are far behind the Indian fab 5,Kallis,Inzy,KP,Lara etc.
Click to expand...


I have no idea why you all are getting so defensive or floating this strawman argument. Forget about Inzi, Dravid, Tendulkar and the pantheon of ATGs. I'm simply saying out of all the teams in the world at present; India is the best team against spin. What is so hard to understand about that? If I said New Zealand is the best test team in the world would you start comparing them to the Australian side of the 2000s?

And the reason I am saying this because India continues to prepare rank-turners in nearly every home game (despite having a very good pace bowling attack) and win, which tells me they see their ability to play spin as an advantage over other teams. These are basic facts that shouldn't be that hard to understand.
 
https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12344/12230722/indias-ravichandran-ashwin-tired-of-ahmedabad-pitch-criticism-after-test-win-over-england

India spinner Ravichandran Ashwin feels criticism of the Ahmedabad pitch is "out of hand" in the wake of his side's Test victory over England inside two days.

The surface at Narendra Modi Stadium - which is also the venue for the fourth and final Test in the series, beginning on Thursday - has come under fire following India's 10-wicket triumph.

Ashwin, who finished the match with seven wickets, bowled almost unchanged with fellow spinner Axar Patel as England were dismissed for just 81 in their second innings, leaving the home side with a modest victory target of 49.

"I've said this in the past, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the fact is that talk about the surface is getting out of hand," he said.

"Why would you talk about the surface time and again? Has there been any instance where the surface has been spoken about in any other country?

"I find it very funny that when they speak about the surface, it is immediately quoted all over the press.

"When we went to New Zealand, two Test matches were over in a total of five days. Nobody quoted it.

"In South Africa (India captain) Virat (Kohli) said he was not there to talk about the pitch. That's how we're taught to play cricket."

Spin is expected to dominate again in the final Test, particularly after India seamer Jasprit Bumrah withdrew from the squad, citing personal reasons.

Bumrah had been expected to play a major role in the series, his first on home soil, but has not added to the four wickets he took in the first Test in Chennai, which England won by 317 runs.

He was rested for the second game and bowled just six overs in the pink-ball third Test as seamers on both sides were forced into peripheral roles on a turning pitch.

"I don't see any of the players from England having an issue with the surface," added Ashwin, who reached 400 Test wickets during the Ahmedabad win.

"They want to improve, they look like they want to have a better contest. Is it the players who are complaining about the pitches? Because we've never done that in England."

India have not added a replacement for Bumrah to their squad, with Hardik Pandya, Mohammed Siraj and Umesh Yadav all competing to take his place.
Click to expand...
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I have no idea why you all are getting so defensive or floating this strawman argument. Forget about Inzi, Dravid, Tendulkar and the pantheon of ATGs. I'm simply saying out of all the teams in the world at present; India is the best team against spin.
Click to expand...
No, we aren't and there are plenty of instances which prove this assertion.

What is so hard to understand about that? If I said New Zealand is the best test team in the world would you start comparing them to the Australian side of the 2000s?
Click to expand...
NZ aren't best team in world by any stretch of imagination, lol! They may be 2nd best in world in winning at home but that's about it, they're massive home bullies!

And the reason I am saying this because India continues to prepare rank-turners in nearly every home game (despite having a very good pace bowling attack) and win, which tells me they see their ability to play spin as an advantage over other teams. These are basic facts that shouldn't be that hard to understand.
Click to expand...
Rank turners? No pitch of last England series in India in '16 was a turner, all were flatties, mostly. And England still lost 4-0!

This shows how much you've followed Indian cricket over the years and how much you know about it. Thank you very much for your time.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
All said and done i would cut some slack for these guys. This is a rookie side. Look at top 3. Top 3 generally decides the fate of a team in India. They are highly inexperienced. They heavily rely on Root. Stokes has been Ashwin's bunny. Pope looked decent. But they were preoccupied with sweeping everything which was dead wrong. Overall this team completely depended on Root given their rotation policy.
Click to expand...
I disagree, Pope looked horrible in his brief stays on wicket in both the innings. Looked totally like a rabbit in headlights!

Also, I'm saying that England has better spin playing ability and they're down 2-1 in this series only because they've to face far superior spinners than our batsmen have to.
 
What a brutal reply by Lyon

Nathan Lyon (in CA) said "I was watching India vs England Test, It was brilliant. I am thinking to bring that curator to SCG - we play on seaming wickets & get bowled out for 47,60. Nobody says anything but when it starts turning, world will start crying - I don't get this".
 
MP2011 said:
No, we aren't and there are plenty of instances which prove this assertion.


NZ aren't best team in world by any stretch of imagination, lol! They may be 2nd best in world in winning at home but that's about it, they're massive home bullies!


Rank turners? No pitch of last England series in India in '16 was a turner, all were flatties, mostly. And England still lost 4-0!

This shows how much you've followed Indian cricket over the years and how much you know about it. Thank you very much for your time.
Click to expand...

First off, keep the condescending tone to yourself. I don't care for it at all. India have prepared rank-turners since the absolutely random time-period you chose; whether you choose to believe it or not. The most obvious case being Pune 2017 vs. Australia. And even if you don't consider many of them rank-turners its fairly obvious that almost all of these wickets barring a few like the one dished out to Sri Lanka in Kolkata 2017 have assisted spin heavily.

Also, you can choose to live in your fantasy world but the rankings tell a different story. But regardless, the World Test Championship final will put the issue to rest.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Also, you can choose to live in your fantasy world but the rankings tell a different story. But regardless, the World Test Championship final will put the issue to rest.
Click to expand...

You seem to have a high opinion of NZ, but just a year ago they fared rather poorly in Australia. Lost 3-0 by margins of 296, 247 and 279 even after Australia declared their 2nd innings in all 3 Tests.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/new-zealand-in-australia-2019-20-1183522/match-results
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The most obvious case being Pune 2017 vs. Australia. And even if you don't consider many of them rank-turners its fairly obvious that almost all of these wickets barring a few like the one dished out to Sri Lanka in Kolkata 2017 have assisted spin heavily.
Click to expand...
lol, keep believing whatever you want to believe, nobody is going to stop you from day dreaming! I see you deliberately chose not to comment on tracks for last English series. I knew that because that didn't suit your agenda of painting all Indian tracks with one brush.
 
And lol what's this obsession with NZ? Only a totally foolish person won't anoint NZ as favorites for a test match being played in English conditions against any team in world which isn't England! English pitches suit NZ the most, after England of course!
 
https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cricket/india-vs-england/nathan-lyon-ahmedabad-pitch-third-test-ashwin-spin-england-four-seamers/article33953886.ece

Australia off-spinner Nathan Lyon has joined India counterpart R. Ashwin in defending Ahmedabad's spin-friendly pitch where India thumped England inside two days of the day-night third Test on Thursday.

Several former England players questioned the suitability of the pitch after 30 wickets fell in five sessions in what was the shortest completed Test match since 1935.

Ashwin launched an angry defence of the track on Saturday citing similar batting collapses in recent day-night Tests, saying batsmen were still not used to the pink-ball novelty. The spinner in Lyon was thrilled with the turn and irked by the criticism of the pitch that offered it.

"We play on seaming wickets around the world and get bowled out for 47, 60. Nobody ever says a thing (about the pitch)," Lyon was quoted as saying by the Australian Associated Press. "But as soon as it starts spinning, everyone in the world seems to start crying about it. I don't get it. I'm all for it, it was entertaining."

The 33-year-old, a former pitch curator himself, said he was up all night watching the match.

"It was absolutely brilliant. I'm thinking about bringing that curator out to the SCG (Sydney Cricket Ground)."

He was also amused by England's decision to field a pace-heavy attack on a spinners' paradise with Jack Leach as its only specialist spinner. The selection blunder was all the more evident as part-time spinner and skipper Joe Root went on to claim his maiden five-wicket haul.

"The best thing about this Test match that just passed is that England went in with four seamers," Lyon said. "That will do me. I don't need to say any more."

Lyon's views echoed Ashwin, who hit back at claims that the Ahmedabad pitch was not a good surface as it assisted the spinners. "What makes a good surface? Who defines this? Seam on the first day, then bat well, then spin on the last two days? Come on, who makes all these rules? We need to get over it," Ashwin said.
Click to expand...
 
"The best thing about this Test match that just passed is that England went in with four seamers," Lyon said. "That will do me. I don't need to say any more."

------------------

Lyon has a point here. Eng totally messed it up.
 
Napa said:
You seem to have a high opinion of NZ, but just a year ago they fared rather poorly in Australia. Lost 3-0 by margins of 296, 247 and 279 even after Australia declared their 2nd innings in all 3 Tests.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/new-zealand-in-australia-2019-20-1183522/match-results
Click to expand...

Yeah I know. I saw the series. But the WTC final is not in Australia.

And they also gave India a thrashing for the ages not too long ago. In seaming English conditions where India got hammered 4-1 a few years ago, I would pit NZ as favorites.
 
Last edited:
MP2011 said:
lol, keep believing whatever you want to believe, nobody is going to stop you from day dreaming! I see you deliberately chose not to comment on tracks for last English series. I knew that because that didn't suit your agenda of painting all Indian tracks with one brush.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you're trolling or just plain delusional. Flat tracks are considered helpful to spinners. Surely you must know that.

The series you are talking about: Ashwin and Jadeja shared 54 wickets between themselves.

Indian tracks are helpful to spinners. Doesn't matter if they are dead flat and India piles up 600-700 runs in the first innings. Or rank turners where the pitch starts exploding from the first day. The spinners are the ones who win you games on those tracks. Its that very strategy that propelled India to No.1 not too long ago.

You can choose to live in your alternate reality. But Indian tracks are known for being slow and low and that has always been the case dating back to the days of Bedi, Prassana, Venkataraghavan and Chandrasekhar. I don't know if you started watching cricket yesterday or are just being coy but I urge you to maybe go back and watch those matches you keep mentioning again. Its entirely possible that you weren't watching them with you eyes open.
 
MP2011 said:
So rankings are absolutely fine now since NZ is no.1 in world? Thank you!
Click to expand...

Don't know what you are implying. But being Number 1 technically means you are the best team in the world. Doesn't matter if you are New Zealand or Zimbabwe that is number one. Especially when there isn't one team that comfortably dominates all the others.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Yeah I know. I saw the series. But the WTC final is not in Australia.

And they also gave India a thrashing for the ages not too long ago. In seaming English conditions where India got hammered 4-1 a few years ago, I would pit NZ as favorites.
Click to expand...

We need Rahane rather than Kohli as captain to beat NZ, unfortunately it won't happen.
 
'I don't get it': Lyon baffled by pitch criticism

Australia off-spinner sees no problem with a turning pitch like the one for the third Test in Ahmedabad

Nathan Lyon would love India's chief curator to be put in charge of the SCG, declaring the much-maligned pitch in Ahmedabad was brilliant and he is perplexed by those "crying" about spin-friendly surfaces.

India crushed England by 10 wickets in a pink-ball match that spanned just 842 balls, making it the shortest completed Test since 1934.

The result has reignited debate about home-ground advantage.

Former England captains Andrew Strauss, Alastair Cook and Michael Vaughan criticised the pitch prepared by the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI)'s chief groundsman Ashish Bhowmik, while the tourists are considering whether to lodge a formal complaint to the International Cricket Council.

Lyon pointed to the fact that Jack Leach was the visitors' sole frontline spinner when asked about the reaction to the pitch.

"The best thing about this Test match that just passed is that England went in with four seamers," Lyon said.

"That will do me. I don't need to say any more."

Lyon, who worked as a curator before starting his 100-Test career, was captivated by the carnage created by fellow offspinner Ravichandran Ashwin and left-arm tweaker Axar Patel.

"I was up all night watching it," he said.

"It was absolutely brilliant. I'm thinking about bringing that curator out to the SCG.

"We play on seaming wickets around the world and get bowled out for 47, 60. Nobody ever says a thing (about the pitch).

"But as soon as it starts spinning, everyone in the world seems to start crying about it.

"I don't get it. I'm all for it, it was entertaining."

The result was a major blow to Australia's hopes of sneaking into the Test championship final.

Tim Paine's team will contest the mid-year final at Lord's if England win their fourth Test against India, which starts at the same venue on Thursday.

Any other result will mean Australia's next Test won't come until next summer.

The long wait comes as national coach Justin Langer admits he was disappointed to read rumblings of player discontent in a newspaper report, noting on Perth's SportFM he had "talked for years about honest conversations".

"Me personally, if I had a problem with JL I'd go straight to him," Lyon said.

"But I don't have a problem with him. I don't understand where it's all coming from.

"I'd like to think anyone in that change room or anyone at Cricket Australia or outside - if anyone has a problem with anyone, we're about being honest with each other."

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/nat...india-test-match-crying-ashwin-scg/2021-02-28
 
"We play on seaming wickets around the world and get bowled out for 47, 60. Nobody ever says a thing (about the pitch).

"But as soon as it starts spinning, everyone in the world seems to start crying about it.
Click to expand...
..
Brilliant from Lyon to speak the truth.
 
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