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Should the UK Criminalise Salafism?

shaz619

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The movement emerged as a liberal one, in later 18th century Egypt – this variant is nowadays qualified as Modernist Salafism – before taking its contemporary orientation in the 1920s, which ascribes itself in the ideology lineage of Ibn Taymiyya and has merged with the Wahhabism which is now considered as synonymous.
 
Thoughts [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION]
 
I dont think it should be criminalised. But Salafi foreign funding really needs to be looked at and the extreme elements of Salafism need to be tackled by scholars.
 
I dont think it should be criminalised. But Salafi foreign funding really needs to be looked at and the extreme elements of Salafism need to be tackled by scholars.

The Salafi Scholars can't do that because it would not be in line with their beliefs, while what they preach is innocent on the surface often the "us against them" rhetoric with everything happening around us can plant the roots for extremism even when they don't intend it
 
I dont think it should be criminalised. But Salafi foreign funding really needs to be looked at and the extreme elements of Salafism need to be tackled by scholars.

Agree the first step is to stop all that excess funding and we also need to spy on how Salafi leaders conduct their sermons on Friday's to root out all the bad apples, we need to be very careful about their speech because there are so many young people who go for prayer
 
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] you might call me out for saying this because I'm talking about the British law as a Pakistani citizen, but I think that you've made a brilliant thread and yes, I do think that the UK needs to criminalize Salafism. Salafism paves way for extremist ideologies followed by terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al Qaeda.
 
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] you might call me out for saying this because I'm talking about the British law as a Pakistani citizen, but I think that you've made a brilliant thread and yes, I do think that the UK needs to criminalize Salafism. Salafism paves way for extremist ideologies followed by terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al Qaeda.

No I won't everyone is entitled to their opinion :)) It's the elephant in the room which doesn't get enough coverage, I believe it's also a big issue in Pakistan as well; there are madrasas there which are funded by factions in saudi right? correct me if am wrong and there have been attacks on sufi shrines and grave sites because they believe people to be committing shirkh. ISIS have also attacked Medina which reinforces our understanding of their ideology which stems from their beliefs.

In the UK they often are more vocal about Muslims celebrating the birth of prophet pbuh Birthday then condemning what ISIS do. Now am not going to say we 100% need to criminalise their beliefs but it's just a thought and one which needs to be discussed because it's a very important issue
 
No I won't everyone is entitled to their opinion :)) It's the elephant in the room which doesn't get enough coverage, I believe it's also a big issue in Pakistan as well; there are madrasas there which are funded by factions in saudi right? correct me if am wrong and there have been attacks on sufi shrines and grave sites because they believe people to be committing shirkh. ISIS have also attacked Medina which reinforces our understanding of their ideology which stems from their beliefs.

In the UK they often are more vocal about Muslims celebrating the birth of prophet pbuh Birthday then condemning what ISIS do. Now am not going to say we 100% need to criminalise their beliefs but it's just a thought and one which needs to be discussed because it's a very important issue

Exactly. Pakistan suffers from the same problem thanks to General Zia ul Haq. Sadly, however, the situation has aggravated and is now out of control. There's nothing that can be done about it. There are such madrassas on every street of every city. Hopefully one day the Govt. will realise that they need to demolish these because they are literally harbors of terrorists.

The UK needs to look into this ASAP before things get as bad as they have gotten in Pakistan.
 
They should also take action against Barelvi mosques - all of whom idolize the terrorist Mumtaz Qadri. A good step would be to stop issuing visas to the likes of Hanif Qureshi.
 
They should also take action against Barelvi mosques - all of whom idolize the terrorist Mumtaz Qadri. A good step would be to stop issuing visas to the likes of Hanif Qureshi.

which would leave what type of mosques? genuinely asking as aren't deeobandi similar to salafi?
 
They should also take action against Barelvi mosques - all of whom idolize the terrorist Mumtaz Qadri. A good step would be to stop issuing visas to the likes of Hanif Qureshi.

Majority of terrorist groups cite Wahabi/Salafi as the belief source when it comes to justifying their unspeakable evil so they are clearly the biggest problem with their folk prone to radicalisation given what their scholars and leaders spew
 
The UK laws are generally pretty robust and comprehensive. If they are enforced properly then I don't see a problem, it should be pretty difficult to sidestep any laws if the public authorities are doing their job. There are many different strands of Salafism, the more extreme ones have already been outlawed. I'm not really sure what more can be done over that.
 
You can't criminalise a belief system. How on earth would you police it?

I would help them , go in the salafi mosque's as a mole :afridi first and most important aspect is to recognise that the Salafism is a huge problem, then we can work to find solutions to the questions you speak off
 
The movement emerged as a liberal one, in later 18th century Egypt – this variant is nowadays qualified as Modernist Salafism – before taking its contemporary orientation in the 1920s, which ascribes itself in the ideology lineage of Ibn Taymiyya and has merged with the Wahhabism which is now considered as synonymous.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who follow this variant, the vast majority 99.9% do not believe in killing innocent civllians.

Wahabism came into influence after the British installed a puppet regime in the holy land. Western governments continue to support and protect this to this day.
 
The UK laws are generally pretty robust and comprehensive. If they are enforced properly then I don't see a problem, it should be pretty difficult to sidestep any laws if the public authorities are doing their job. There are many different strands of Salafism, the more extreme ones have already been outlawed. I'm not really sure what more can be done over that.

I agree with you but even at the not so extreme strand I have a problem with their ideologies and I know not everything is black and white but we need to be very careful before things escalate
 
There are hundreds of thousands of people who follow this variant, the vast majority 99.9% do not believe in killing innocent civllians.

Wahabism came into influence after the British installed a puppet regime in the holy land. Western governments continue to support and protect this to this day.

There's a big Salafi uprising in the UK though, it's the most ignorant form of Islam and most intolerant; it needs to be dealt with
 
#SalafiOut #WahabiOut #DeobandiOut Get it trending guys! [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION]
 
There's a big Salafi uprising in the UK though, it's the most ignorant form of Islam and most intolerant; it needs to be dealt with

Birmingham Central Mosque may be following this version and they open their doors to Non-Muslims more than others.

It isn't Salafism which is intolerant, it is the small underground groups and not to mention many people are co-erced by the security forces too.
 
I agree with you but even at the not so extreme strand I have a problem with their ideologies and I know not everything is black and white but we need to be very careful before things escalate

I don't really care about their ideology and it has little impact on my life as it's easy to ignore for the most part. Maybe if I was living in Saudi Arabia it would be a different story. I trust the authorities to deal with any group that steps beyond it's bounds.
 
Birmingham Central Mosque may be following this version and they open their doors to Non-Muslims more than others.

It isn't Salafism which is intolerant, it is the small underground groups and not to mention many people are co-erced by the security forces too.

I don't really know what they follow to be honest, Green Lane is full on Wobbler-fied and funded by Saudi though.

Bro we can't blame security forces etc on literally everything, they don't like people celebrating the prophet's birthday it's not something we can blame the security forces on it's their ideology; they're not a very tolerant bunch and I do not encourage anyone to go to their mosque's or listen to their sermons
 
I am not aware how it works in the UK, but here in India , you have a lot of well funded, Arab attired, Salafi preachers going around saying stuff like :

1. Don't celebrate Eid-e-Milad , its anti-islam
2. Shun all sort of interactions with Kafirs (includes shias), even talking to them, buying from their shops etc is prohibited according to them .
3. Do not associate or participate in any feasts/celebrations etc conducted as part of kafir's festivals eg, Christmas, onam etc .

I don't know how much of the vitriol sprouted above is actually a part of the ideology, or it may be a case of overenthusiastic preachers showing extra gratitude for the oil money, but ANY ideology that preaches people to shun normal human interactions and aggravates and promotes differences among otherwise integrated communities is WRONG.

I live in a state with a significant muslim population which has culturally integrated well into our sociaty, so there seems to be an ongoing struggle amongst the Muslims themselves here on whether this ideology need to be given mainstream acceptance or not. They seem to promote complete isolation of the muslim community from the non-muslim surroundings, which I guess should not be encouraged in multi-cultural societies.
 
I don't really care about their ideology and it has little impact on my life as it's easy to ignore for the most part. Maybe if I was living in Saudi Arabia it would be a different story. I trust the authorities to deal with any group that steps beyond it's bounds.

In the grand scheme that's true but we got to ask questions when people from that ideology commit terrorist attacks and put all our lives in danger
 
I am not aware how it works in the UK, but here in India , you have a lot of well funded, Arab attired, Salafi preachers going around saying stuff like :

1. Don't celebrate Eid-e-Milad , its anti-islam
2. Shun all sort of interactions with Kafirs (includes shias), even talking to them, buying from their shops etc is prohibited according to them .
3. Do not associate or participate in any feasts/celebrations etc conducted as part of kafir's festivals eg, Christmas, onam etc .

I don't know how much of the vitriol sprouted above is actually a part of the ideology, or it may be a case of overenthusiastic preachers showing extra gratitude for the oil money, but ANY ideology that preaches people to shun normal human interactions and aggravates and promotes differences among otherwise integrated communities is WRONG.

I live in a state with a significant muslim population which has culturally integrated well into our sociaty, so there seems to be an ongoing struggle amongst the Muslims themselves here on whether this ideology need to be given mainstream acceptance or not. They seem to promote complete isolation of the muslim community from the non-muslim surroundings, which I guess should not be encouraged in multi-cultural societies.

I share the same concerns as you and points 1-3 can be attributed to Salafi, Wahabi and Deobandi's generally and not others
 
I live in a state with a significant muslim population which has culturally integrated well into our sociaty, so there seems to be an ongoing struggle amongst the Muslims themselves here on whether this ideology need to be given mainstream acceptance or not. They seem to promote complete isolation of the muslim community from the non-muslim surroundings, which I guess should not be encouraged in multi-cultural societies.

I was under the impression that Hindus do the same, many parts of India are segregated and in Mumbai Muslims or Christians aren't even allowed to rent or buy property in Hindu areas because the smell of cooked meat is offensive. Also of course, the caste system itself is still practised widely in India and that in itself is divisive in a multicultural society. I don't think you can pin this just on Muslims in your country.
 
In the grand scheme that's true but we got to ask questions when people from that ideology commit terrorist attacks and put all our lives in danger

Asking questions is one thing, prosecuting or criminalising is another. They have to actually break the law to be prosecuted, and most incendiary stuff is already outlawed through hate speech laws.
 
I don't really know what they follow to be honest, Green Lane is full on Wobbler-fied and funded by Saudi though.

Bro we can't blame security forces etc on literally everything, they don't like people celebrating the prophet's birthday it's not something we can blame the security forces on it's their ideology; they're not a very tolerant bunch and I do not encourage anyone to go to their mosque's or listen to their sermons

People are entitled to having different views on theology. There are dozens of sects in all major religions, this is very normal. You might not agree with them but as long as they don't cause harm, they can think, dress, eat and talk how they wish.

If the UK was to go with your proposal, tommorow it would be someone else who is banned.

We need to ban overseas state terrorism, this would make the biggest change.
 
I was under the impression that Hindus do the same, many parts of India are segregated and in Mumbai Muslims or Christians aren't even allowed to rent or buy property in Hindu areas because the smell of cooked meat is offensive. Also of course, the caste system itself is still practised widely in India and that in itself is divisive in a multicultural society. I don't think you can pin this just on Muslims in your country.

Which is why I SPECIFIED my state, Kerala. If you've read my previous posts in many threads, I've mentioned many times that my state has had no SUCH ISSUES , historically, with a level of cultural mixing between the muslim/christian/hindu populace you won't find in ANY OTHER INDIAN STATE. Which is why I find the rise of an ideology , that is creating all such divisions, where historically there has been none/very few, so alarming.
 
People are entitled to having different views on theology. There are dozens of sects in all major religions, this is very normal. You might not agree with them but as long as they don't cause harm, they can think, dress, eat and talk how they wish.

If the UK was to go with your proposal, tommorow it would be someone else who is banned.

We need to ban overseas state terrorism, this would make the biggest change.

You're right in that sense definitely, however I'd like for the Salafi community to do more and not worry so much about theology differences with other groups but come down hard on their preachers who may potentially be planting the seeds for radicalisation even when unintended. Yes we need to put an end to that a well since they're not playing a positive role over there
 
Asking questions is one thing, prosecuting or criminalising is another. They have to actually break the law to be prosecuted, and most incendiary stuff is already outlawed through hate speech laws.

True, it was just a thought but I've not said am in favour of it; there are adequate measures in place but we could always improve in certain areas
 
You're right in that sense definitely, however I'd like for the Salafi community to do more and not worry so much about theology differences with other groups but come down hard on their preachers who may potentially be planting the seeds for radicalisation even when unintended. Yes we need to put an end to that a well since they're not playing a positive role over there

Perhaps all scholars should have an open public debate on thier beliefs. At least this way there will be no hiding. Of course if we meet anyone whether it's a Muslim, far right extremist or anyone else peddling hate, we should shut them down instantly.
 
Which is why I SPECIFIED my state, Kerala. If you've read my previous posts in many threads, I've mentioned many times that my state has had no SUCH ISSUES , historically, with a level of cultural mixing between the muslim/christian/hindu populace you won't find in ANY OTHER INDIAN STATE. Which is why I find the rise of an ideology , that is creating all such divisions, where historically there has been none/very few, so alarming.

Fair enough, Kerala does seem to be a different (much cooler) planet to the rest of India.
 
Fair enough, Kerala does seem to be a different (much cooler) planet to the rest of India.

But salafism/wahabbism is far stronger here than most other Indian states, which is a paradox in itself.

Which is why I keep blaming the Saudi Influence.
 
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] i meant from mainstream Sunni and Sufi scholars to negate the message of Salafi-Wahhabism.
 
Wahhabism was around long before the British came into Arabia in the 1900s. Ibn Wahab was around in the 1700s and hia book Kitab al Tawhid has been used as a manual by Al Qaeda and ISIS and by Saudi scholars themselves to spread hatred against non Muslims against Shias and Sufis. Salafi Wahhabism and Deobandi fundamentalism encourages segregation and separation from other groups in society and doesnt fit well in a multi cultural society where people from all backgrounds are present.

Savile Town in Dewsbury is an example of this mindset.

You can of course be pious and be a fully functioning member of society Moeen Ali is a great example of this and he can be a great role.model.for kids from more conservative backgrounds how they can retain religious belief and integrate and mix with others.
 
Wahhabism was around long before the British came into Arabia in the 1900s. Ibn Wahab was around in the 1700s and hia book Kitab al Tawhid has been used as a manual by Al Qaeda and ISIS and by Saudi scholars themselves to spread hatred against non Muslims against Shias and Sufis. Salafi Wahhabism and Deobandi fundamentalism encourages segregation and separation from other groups in society and doesnt fit well in a multi cultural society where people from all backgrounds are present.

Savile Town in Dewsbury is an example of this mindset.

You can of course be pious and be a fully functioning member of society Moeen Ali is a great example of this and he can be a great role.model.for kids from more conservative backgrounds how they can retain religious belief and integrate and mix with others.

Ironically Salafism and Wahabbism can themselves be described as sects as they also differentiated from the original form of Islam they supposedly champion.
 
Thoughts [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION]

100% agree, it should be.

I remember making a thread regarding a salafist breeding ground in the Belgium neighborhood block called Molonbeek a few years ago. We know now that a number of fighters from that block went to Syria to join IS while a few returned to cause terrorist attacks in Paris and Belgium.

Apparently Salaifsm is much prominent in some European countries like Holland, France and Belgium and not as much as the UK.

So yes while tough action should be taken against this sort of ideological teaching that is totally incompatible with the European way of life there is also need to be action on the root causes like jobs, education, poverty.

In essence a multi prolonged attack.
 
[MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] they reject all the centuries of islamic scholarship philosophy and opinion for their own narrow minded criteria on what is "true Islam". Their claim to return to originality is a baseless one.
 
Kerala also sends most ISIS fighters than entire India combined.Much more than UP, birth place of ancient pakistanis.
[MENTION=130700]TM Riddle[/MENTION] That's too much of a sweeping statement to make. Kerala has seen 21-25 radical youth join ISIS till now, but if you combine the number who have gone from Telengana, Karnataka, Kalyan & Thane (mumbai), Kashmir etc that far exceed 25 . Already 19 or so people had joined from these areas as early as 2015.

I'm not defending Kerala here , what happens in kerala is unacceptable given our cultural dynamics, but its not the only place that send figthers.


This Guardian piece outlines what is happening in Kerala, and the kind of damage Salafism has been doing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/isis-recruiters-fertile-ground-kerala-indias-tourist-gem

How Isis recruiters found fertile ground in Kerala, India's tourist gem

Residents of Kerala like to call their lush south Indian state, “God’s own country”. Hafizuddin Hakim disagreed.

The 23-year-old left his wife and family in June, telling them he was headed to Sri Lanka to pursue his Islamic studies. Around the same time, 16 others slipped out of his district, Kasargod, and another four from neighbouring Palakkad.

The next anyone heard from the missing 21 was an encrypted audio recording sent from an Afghan number. “We reached our destination,” it said. “There is no point in complaining to police ... We have no plans to return from the abode of Allah.”

The mass disappearance of the group, widely believed – but not confirmed– to have joined Islamic State, is one of a number of incidents this year that have raised fears that India, so far unscathed by the terrorist group, might be seeing increased activity.

India’s Muslim population, the third largest in the world, has so far contributed negligible numbers to Isis – fewer than 90 people, according to most estimates. “More have gone from Britain, even from the Maldives, than India,” says Vikram Sood, a former chief of India’s foreign spy agency.

But growing concern over the group’s influence was made official this month, when the US embassy in Delhi issued its first Isis-related warning, of an “increased threat to places in India frequented by Westerners, such as religious sites, markets and festival venues”.

However, it is not India’s harsh, dry north, nor Kashmir, the site of a burning Islamic insurgency, where Isis has found most appeal. The group’s unlikely recruiting ground is Kerala, one of India’s wealthiest, most diverse and best-educated states.

Minarets and palm trees intersperse the skyline along Kerala’s Malabar coast, a verdant region of paddies and waterways that weave between villages like veins.

Padanna, in the north of the state, is a typical backwater town: orderly, lined with oversized houses, and made rich by remittances from its share of the nearly 2.5m Keralites who work in the Arab gulf.

It is also from where a dozen people, including Hakim, vanished in June. “He was a carefree, easy-going boy,” recalls his uncle, Abdul Rahim. “He used to indulge in all kinds of activities, smoking, drinking. He was not that religious.”

Hakim had worked in the United Arab Emirates in his late teens, returning to Padanna two years ago. A little aimless, he fell in with a new crowd, centred around an employee of the local Peace International School, an education franchise that adheres to a hardline Salafi Muslim ideology (but which has denied any involvement in the group’s disappearance).

“All of a sudden he became a recluse,” Rahim says. He grew a wispy beard, cut the TV cable to his home and one day, stopped driving his car. “He said it was taken on loan, and a loan was anti-Islam.”

Salafism is not new to southern India, but an influx of Saudi Arabian money in the past decades – partly detailed in Saudi diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks – has produced a harder-edged Islam in the region, says Ashraf Kaddakal, a professor at the University of Kerala.

“It is a very narrow, very rigid, very reactionary kind of ideology,” he says. “And it has attracted many youngsters, especially students.

These youngsters have detached from their [orthodox Sunni] leaders and started following the online Islam, the preaching and sermons of these Saudi and other Salafi scholars,” he says. “They indoctrinated many through these internet preachings.”

Kadakkal himself has tried to counsel dozens of young people, whose parents fear their children’s increasingly rigid faith. “My counselling has been a total failure”, he admits. “They blindly follow their masters. They get their fatwas from the internet.”

Whatever threat Isis poses to India is fundamentally different, and probably less pressing, than that which most occupies the minds of Indian security officials.

“For us the major fear is from groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed,” says Sood, the former intelligence chief. “That is where the real, organised, state-sponsored threat lies.”

In contrast, those arrested so far on suspicion of Isis links or sympathies, numbering 68 people, have largely been self-starters, operating in small, unskilled networks.

“And they were almost all well-short of coming close to actually carrying out anything resembling a lethal operation,” says Praveen Swami, an author and journalist who specialises in strategic issues.

Still, the militant group has explicitly tried to ignite fervour among Indians. Its propaganda wing released a video in May featuring interviews with Indian recruits, including members of an existing jihadi group, the Indian Mujahideen, that pledged allegiance to Isis in 2014.

According to a National Intelligence Agency charge-sheet issued against 16 alleged extremists in July, authorities also believe Shafi Armar, a notorious Indian Mujahideen member believed to be in Syria, has been actively trying to groom recruits back home.

As well, Subahani Haja Moideen, one of six members of an alleged extremist cell arrested in northern Kerala in October, is believed to have actually returned from fighting with Isis in Iraq, where he reportedly met with some of the alleged organisers of the Paris terror attacks, according to Indian news agencies.

On the numbers, overall – and like al-Qaida before it – the group has so far failed to make deep roots in India.

Kadakkal suggests India’s idiosyncratic religious culture just doesn’t blend well with Isis’ highly orthodox worldview. “Indian soil is not right for this kind of extremism,” he says.

Sood agrees: “There is a lot of laissez faire in India, much more than in the more ordered societies of the modern world. We let things be, and that’s terrible when it comes to driving, but otherwise ... it has upsides.”

But the fault-line between Hindus and Muslim in India is a deep one, and the symbolic power of a successful attack could far outweigh any toll of casualties.

“I guess that is the real fear,” Swami says. “If even this small Isis thing succeeds in carrying out large acts of violence, the political and knock-on consequences could create serious trouble.”
 
I don't know about criminalisation - it seems to be descending to the level of these people.

I do think that there needs to be a major national discussion about the ghetto-isation of places like Dewsbury and Blackburn and the creation of Asian enclaves there in which the people have zero integration or understanding of their host society.

My personal strategies would be:

1. A complete ban on spouse visas for non-EU citizens. You don't get to marry someone unless he or she is a UK or EU citizen.

2. Criminalisation of both legal and religious marriages to first cousins.

3. A complete ban on madrasas and other forms of religious education replacing mainstream education.

4. English language tests for all immigrants after 5 years, with instant deportation for all people who fail, regardless of colour or creed.

5. Good citizenship classes at all schools, with mandatory exams which cannot be passed without a decent working knowledge of British culture and a range of religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism.

6. Our James Bonds actually need to be British Asians, embedded into every mosque and religious school in the country. And the government needs to have sweeping powers to close them if they promote hatred.
 
Thoughts [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=23613]90MPH[/MENTION]

I would be extremely uncomfortable with the thought if criminalising any religious sect. That would seem authoritarian and ilLiberal.

If anyone promotes sedition or violence I would jail them.
 
I would be extremely uncomfortable with the thought if criminalising any religious sect. That would seem authoritarian and ilLiberal.

If anyone promotes sedition or violence I would jail them.

It was just a thought and I think I got carried away with it, it's also not something which would be in line with British values but at the same time we need to realise that there are some big causes for concern
 
I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] that we should robustly assert our liberal democratic values with citizenship classes in school. Show them what is good about this nation. And maybe in doing so remind ourselves when our government strays from those values.
 
I don't know about criminalisation - it seems to be descending to the level of these people.

I do think that there needs to be a major national discussion about the ghetto-isation of places like Dewsbury and Blackburn and the creation of Asian enclaves there in which the people have zero integration or understanding of their host society.

My personal strategies would be:

1. A complete ban on spouse visas for non-EU citizens. You don't get to marry someone unless he or she is a UK or EU citizen.

2. Criminalisation of both legal and religious marriages to first cousins.

3. A complete ban on madrasas and other forms of religious education replacing mainstream education.

4. English language tests for all immigrants after 5 years, with instant deportation for all people who fail, regardless of colour or creed.

5. Good citizenship classes at all schools, with mandatory exams which cannot be passed without a decent working knowledge of British culture and a range of religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism.

6. Our James Bonds actually need to be British Asians, embedded into every mosque and religious school in the country. And the government needs to have sweeping powers to close them if they promote hatred.

All those are perfectly doable, but I can't see what relevance most of them would have to terrorism. The last one in particular made me laugh. A British Asian would have virtually no chance of playing a real James Bond character, but he'd get the 'opportunity' to be a faceless snitch in some tatty mosque in Ilford. :91:

Err...no thanks. Ironically I do know there are people who are paid to do the spying in the mosques and community, but the one I met was actually a foreign student. They don't cost as much I presume, how reliable they are I have no idea.
 
I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] that we should robustly assert our liberal democratic values with citizenship classes in school. Show them what is good about this nation. And maybe in doing so remind ourselves when our government strays from those values.

I agree to a certain extent but this approach completely ignores the fact that abroad and in foreign policy over the last few centuries Britain has not demonstrated liberalism and to could say has practised 'liberalism at home and barbarism abroad'.

A multi pronged approach has to consider foreign policy and British support for Saudi Arabia etc and the state's agencies in supporting & fomenting Islamist organisations throughout the world eg Libya, Syria.
 
I don't know about criminalisation - it seems to be descending to the level of these people.

I do think that there needs to be a major national discussion about the ghetto-isation of places like Dewsbury and Blackburn and the creation of Asian enclaves there in which the people have zero integration or understanding of their host society.

My personal strategies would be:

1. A complete ban on spouse visas for non-EU citizens. You don't get to marry someone unless he or she is a UK or EU citizen.

2. Criminalisation of both legal and religious marriages to first cousins.

3. A complete ban on madrasas and other forms of religious education replacing mainstream education.

4. English language tests for all immigrants after 5 years, with instant deportation for all people who fail, regardless of colour or creed.

5. Good citizenship classes at all schools, with mandatory exams which cannot be passed without a decent working knowledge of British culture and a range of religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism.

6. Our James Bonds actually need to be British Asians, embedded into every mosque and religious school in the country. And the government needs to have sweeping powers to close them if they promote hatred.

Atheism is a religious belief ??? Or have I understood it incorrectly ???

P.S. I kinda agree with every other thing you've actually said in your post....
 
I agree to a certain extent but this approach completely ignores the fact that abroad and in foreign policy over the last few centuries Britain has not demonstrated liberalism and to could say has practised 'liberalism at home and barbarism abroad'.

A multi pronged approach has to consider foreign policy and British support for Saudi Arabia etc and the state's agencies in supporting & fomenting Islamist organisations throughout the world eg Libya, Syria.

.....which is what I mean by "strays from these values".
 
I agree to a certain extent but this approach completely ignores the fact that abroad and in foreign policy over the last few centuries Britain has not demonstrated liberalism and to could say has practised 'liberalism at home and barbarism abroad'.

A multi pronged approach has to consider foreign policy and British support for Saudi Arabia etc and the state's agencies in supporting & fomenting Islamist organisations throughout the world eg Libya, Syria.

I think that liberalism is a state which only takes over in the most advanced and enlightened countries. In the U.K. it only really arrived from the late 1960's onwards.

I have just returned to Australia from the USA, but I identify as British. Yet even though I vote Conservative in the UK, [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] for example will consider it totally normal that I consider my values to be liberal ones. But more than that, whereas most Americans (or Asians) are proud to identify themselves as "Conservatives", I view that label as an insult.

Go back to the early 1960's and our society had abominable and disgraceful values: the death penalty, disapproval of pre-marital sex, racial prejudice etc, etc. The period in which you lambast our illiberal colonial policies was one marred by illiberalism at home too.

The question now is almost whether we should require immigrants to accept and adopt our modern liberal values. You could mount a case for it, but where does it end? Should immigrants have to renounce the death penalty? Should they not be permitted to marry until they can demonstrate 12 months of sexual activity with their fiancé?

The funadamental problem with our liberalism is that our tolerance arguably goes too far towards accepting the extremism of others. All of us can see that it's inhuman not to allow an English woman to marry the Australian man she met on holiday and has lived with for two years. But why on earth do we allow an English Asian to import from his or her country of origin a relative whom they have just married without even being in an intimate relationship first? A relative who, in contrast with the Australian in the earlier example does not share a common culture or language?

For many countries in Western Europe, it is our liberal tolerance which is creating these problems. But without that tolerance, we would lose our soul.
 
I don't know about criminalisation - it seems to be descending to the level of these people.

I do think that there needs to be a major national discussion about the ghetto-isation of places like Dewsbury and Blackburn and the creation of Asian enclaves there in which the people have zero integration or understanding of their host society.

My personal strategies would be:

1. A complete ban on spouse visas for non-EU citizens. You don't get to marry someone unless he or she is a UK or EU citizen.

2. Criminalisation of both legal and religious marriages to first cousins.

3. A complete ban on madrasas and other forms of religious education replacing mainstream education.

4. English language tests for all immigrants after 5 years, with instant deportation for all people who fail, regardless of colour or creed.

5. Good citizenship classes at all schools, with mandatory exams which cannot be passed without a decent working knowledge of British culture and a range of religious beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism.

6. Our James Bonds actually need to be British Asians, embedded into every mosque and religious school in the country. And the government needs to have sweeping powers to close them if they promote hatred.

What if I fall in love with a foreigner :(

and point 2 should be enforced but it has nothing to do with Salafism :))

Point 4 is already in place and will be tweaked soon.

Point 5 needs to be enforced.

Point 6 is already in place.

Point 3 will need to be enforced.

Man that's got to be a record I agree with you on most things :yk3
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] I was in a religious school for a very short period a long time ago thank god I left it, at one point I recall them showing us video's of the Gujarat riots in India and pointing out how these people are not all hunky dory so we should blacklist Bollywood. Some of their teachers use to have an issue with my haircut as well.

Anyhow a few years ago the school was rated inadequate by Ofsted and they also pointed out concerns over heavy involvement by governors in the day-to-day running of the school, it had gone through three head teachers in 18 months at one point. Soon after the City Council replaced the governors of the school with an interim executive board. The council has stated that the governing body had created a considerable budget deficit. Furthermore the council would investigate claims that state funding for the school was diverted to set up a School in Pakistan.

I also think in my opinion that the school has benefited from suspect funding during the history of its development.
 
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The fundamental problem with our liberalism is that our tolerance arguably goes too far towards accepting the extremism of others. All of us can see that it's inhuman not to allow an English woman to marry the Australian man she met on holiday and has lived with for two years. But why on earth do we allow an English Asian to import from his or her country of origin a relative whom they have just married without even being in an intimate relationship first? A relative who, in contrast with the Australian in the earlier example does not share a common culture or language?

Great point [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. This seems to be a common problem with western liberalism in General - Germany, France even the non-republican US. This is what gives all those ultra-conservative/radical hindus, muslims and christians (especially among blacks and latinos) so much avenues to spread hate.

But the last time a liberalism based ideology that crushed religion based extremism came about in Europe, wasn't it called Communism and admonished ?
 
I was under the impression that Hindus do the same, many parts of India are segregated and in Mumbai Muslims or Christians aren't even allowed to rent or buy property in Hindu areas because the smell of cooked meat is offensive. Also of course, the caste system itself is still practised widely in India and that in itself is divisive in a multicultural society. I don't think you can pin this just on Muslims in your country.

You should visit North India vs South India thread. Loosely we are different people. I came here as an international student from South India, I made sure my roommates were Indian so I can feel a bit comfortable. As soon as I arrived I realized it was a bad idea. thinking process and behaviour didn't set well with me.
 
Great point [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. This seems to be a common problem with western liberalism in General - Germany, France even the non-republican US. This is what gives all those ultra-conservative/radical hindus, muslims and christians (especially among blacks and latinos) so much avenues to spread hate.

But the last time a liberalism based ideology that crushed religion based extremism came about in Europe, wasn't it called Communism and admonished ?

lol Are you serious?

It's called freedom of speech. People like [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] will use it and claim it's his human right but if there is someone with a different opinion, he calls it liberalism going too fair. The guy is a complete and utter hypocrite. In fact the truth is here in the UK it's ok to use hate speech against Muslims now but if other use much lesser and non-hate speech , simply criticising aspects of foreign policy, it's shut down. Liberalism is just a deception and makes no sense in the western world.
 
Very self righteous people are these Salafi head cases. They can't tolerate any second opinion at all and are hell bent in forcing their view on others. To think that only they understand Islam is greatly offensive to many Muslim's who have no interest in this Salafi thing. Yes, if they propagate violence to enforce their views then throw them in prison.
 
The west is only just now waking up to the problems with salafi's after they brought the problems to these shores, it was ok using them as hired guns for regime change but now they have to deal with the consequences, Muslim world has had to bear the brunt of these thugs for a good 100 years now and some long before that.
 
Bit worrying how much influence these guys have.

Are Saudi-Funded Mosques Really A Problem In The UK?

The Muslim woman who spoke of Saudi-funded mosques and the spread of Wahhabi Islam in Thursday’s Question Time was spot on.

What makes Wahhabism so damaging? We don’t have to look further than its ideologues, such as its founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab who is refered to in ISIS publications. His preaching was vehemently intolerant and violent. Anyone who disagreed with his narrow understating of Islam was considered an apostate and would be punishable by death. His preaching brought bloodshed to the Arabian Peninsula in the form of beheadings, executions, and amputations, much like what we have witnessed from ISIS.

Bernard Haykel, a scholar at Princeton describes the ISIS’ ideology as “a kind of untamed Wahhabism,” and says that “Wahhabism is the closest religious cognate.” Personally, I would not describe ISIS’ ideology as an untamed form of Wahhabism. For me, this overshadows the fundamental problem with Wahhabism’s Islamic theology and implies that Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabism is “tamed.”

A former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Sheikh Aadel Al-Kalbani, Al-Kalbani, criticised aspects within the Salafi stream for permitting the killing of opponents. He announced that ISIS was the result of the Salafi version of Islam, and therefore the Salafi sect needed to change. It could be argued that the difference between Saudi Arabia and ISIS, is that Saudi Arabia merely has nicer buildings. There is no taming a theology, which consists of noxious principles. What makes it worse is that this ideology has spread far and wide in the UK.

In 2007, Dr Denis MacEoin, an Islamic studies expert at Newcastle who previously taught at the University of Fez, led a team of researchers over a two-year project, uncovering a hoard of malignant literature inside as many as a quarter of Britain’s mosques. All of it had been published and distributed by agencies linked to the government of Saudi Arabia.

Among some of the content found in the material were recommendations to burn, stone, and throw homosexuals from mountains or tall buildings, and inflict the same on those who commit adultery or dare to leave or change their religion.

Almost half of the literature, which was openly available in many mosques including the East London Mosque in Whitechapel which had been visited by Prince Charles, was written in English, suggesting that its target audience was that of young British Muslims who would have no formal training in Arabic or Urdu.

It us estimated that Saudi spending on religious causes abroad are between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn during the cold war), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools.

It is no exaggeration then to say that these mosques are little more than propaganda factories producing Wahhabi ideologues to populate the streets of Britain. In 2002, Jamaican convert Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal who had trained at a Saudi university, was caught on tape saying “You can use chemical weapons to exterminate the unbelievers. Is that clear? If you have cockroaches in your house, you spray them with chemicals.” Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 bombers, was among his followers.

This was in 2002, and though the Saudis began to cut back on their international funding after they came into the spotlight following 9/11, imagine how deep the roots of Salafist thought have embedded themselves in British mosques today.

In addition to funding their propaganda in Britain, at home in Saudi Arabia, the Islamic University of Medina reserves 85% of its places for foreign students, resulting in hundreds of British graduates who have returned to the UK with their newly found hard-line Salafist views.

When discussing extremism and radicalisation in the UK, the elephant in the room, without a doubt, is Wahhabism. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other terrorist groups all subscribe to this hostile intolerant reading of Islam. If we are serious about challenging extremism, surely we should start by stopping the mass export of intolerance and hatred of Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia to the UK.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-deen/saudi-funded-mosques_b_16825640.html
 
Salafis are not the problem. The guys who go for ISIS rarely frequent mosques or madaris, Salafis or not. You'll find more of them in nightclubs or among Call of Duty players. You can criticize Salafis for their religious conservatism, but very few of them promote armed militancy against individuals or States ; in fact, many are on ISIS death list, if anything (I think it's the case of the "prime" British Salafi, the Saudi-educated Shaykh Haitham Al Haddad.)
 
I think that liberalism is a state which only takes over in the most advanced and enlightened countries. In the U.K. it only really arrived from the late 1960's onwards.

I have just returned to Australia from the USA, but I identify as British. Yet even though I vote Conservative in the UK, [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] for example will consider it totally normal that I consider my values to be liberal ones. But more than that, whereas most Americans (or Asians) are proud to identify themselves as "Conservatives", I view that label as an insult.

Go back to the early 1960's and our society had abominable and disgraceful values: the death penalty, disapproval of pre-marital sex, racial prejudice etc, etc. The period in which you lambast our illiberal colonial policies was one marred by illiberalism at home too.

The question now is almost whether we should require immigrants to accept and adopt our modern liberal values. You could mount a case for it, but where does it end? Should immigrants have to renounce the death penalty? Should they not be permitted to marry until they can demonstrate 12 months of sexual activity with their fiancé?

The funadamental problem with our liberalism is that our tolerance arguably goes too far towards accepting the extremism of others. All of us can see that it's inhuman not to allow an English woman to marry the Australian man she met on holiday and has lived with for two years. But why on earth do we allow an English Asian to import from his or her country of origin a relative whom they have just married without even being in an intimate relationship first? A relative who, in contrast with the Australian in the earlier example does not share a common culture or language?

For many countries in Western Europe, it is our liberal tolerance which is creating these problems. But without that tolerance, we would lose our soul.

Actions speak louder than words. Why this pretence about being a liberal. Conservatives have apposed every progressive policy that has ever been enacted to help the poor, elderly, disabled, women, minorities, gay rights, workers rights..... I can go on and on with the list. And you voted against all those progressive policies all your adult life it seems. how are you a liberal?
 
Salafis are not the problem. The guys who go for ISIS rarely frequent mosques or madaris, Salafis or not. You'll find more of them in nightclubs or among Call of Duty players. You can criticize Salafis for their religious conservatism, but very few of them promote armed militancy against individuals or States ; in fact, many are on ISIS death list, if anything (I think it's the case of the "prime" British Salafi, the Saudi-educated Shaykh Haitham Al Haddad.)

Salafism is a major issue, it's well and dandy when you listen to them but dare to question or have an apposing view and they get a bit hot under the collar and start labelling with you all sorts of terms.
 
It is easier to ban Salafism and Wahabism than to spend tax-payers money on monitoring their activities. Besides, their ideology contradicts real Islam. Any ideology that gives glimpse of khawarijsm should be eradicated from the facet of the earth. Direct order from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Ban Salafism and Wahabism. Half of the problem will be solved. The remaining problem will boil down to the funding source which can be gradually sorted given on the foreign policy of the nations towards funding-source nation that is behind Salafism and Wahabism.
 
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