Solution: Turning Pakistan into a spin fortress

[Farabi]

This thread discusses solutions to put an end to the misery and confusion:

1. Give a shout to some Indian or Sri Lankan curators and ask them to create some spin-friendly tracks in Pakistan.
2. Scout the best spinners in domestic cricket and get them working with a solid spin coach at the NCA.
3. Always include 2 specialist spinners in our home Test line-ups to help them develop.
4. Pick batters who can handle spin well and develop them.
5. Turn our home ground into a fortress, especially against non-Asian teams.

Discuss.

 

[TabishNator]

This is exactly how we dominated in the UAE so it's definitely a solid strategy.

However we don't have YK and Mishah anymore. All our batsmen including King Babar are hopeless against spin lol.

 

[dravidthewall]

Hire indian curator

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Do we even have a quality spinner or a batsmen who can play quality spin? It's failed strategy before it even begins.

 

[Devadwal]

Do we even have a quality spinner or a batsmen who can play quality spin? It's failed strategy before it even begins.

this is why thread created to find out solid players against Spinners .

This is just not Pakistan problem but current Indian player's also have problem against quality spinners .

 

[Barragan]

This is the only solution!

Pretty idiotic to not have spin friendly wickets in domestic cricket.

Get wickets that crumble from the 3rd day and that shouldn't be an issue.

Fix your home before worrying about competing abroad because this has gone beyond a joke.

 

[Advaith]

Spin friendly pitches for sena countries and green pitches for other touring countries will solve immediate problem.. False hope on fast bowlers is reason for this hopeless condition..

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

Great post pak only chance is to prepare spin wickets vs sena that's how misbah used to do it with 2 spinners in lineup had great results.

 

[Varun]

Can completely see it backfiring and Pakistan being bowled out for 97 a.o. against somebody like Lyon.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Can completely see it backfiring and Pakistan being bowled out for 97 a.o. against somebody like Lyon.

Yup. It will get messy quickly with this lot.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Won't work even against all SENA sides.

Problem is PAK have too many weaknesses for any sort of pitch.

Quality of the bowling is just absolutely atrocious.

 

[sweep_shot]

I believe this is a good idea.

Current method is not working. Pakistan haven't won a home Test since 2021. Something has to change.

 

[FearlessRoar]

This thread discusses solutions to put an end to the misery and confusion:

1. Give a shout to some Indian or Sri Lankan curators and ask them to create some spin-friendly tracks in Pakistan.
2. Scout the best spinners in domestic cricket and get them working with a solid spin coach at the NCA.
3. Always include 2 specialist spinners in our home Test line-ups to help them develop.
4. Pick batters who can handle spin well and develop them.
5. Turn our home ground into a fortress, especially against non-Asian teams.

Discuss.

I don't think this will ever be part of the PCB's plan, because the PCB is more focused on fast bowlers, introducing around 100 of them every 10 years. However, since Ajmal's retirement, we haven't found a single spinner who can be our main force in all three formats.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

Poor idea

It worked for India because
1) You need quality spin bowlers who can take advantage of the pitch — India had Ashwin, Jadeja, Yadav, Patel (nearly Test 1000 wickets between them). Who have Pakistan got ? (Abrar has played six Tests and has 38 wickets)

2) You need batsmen who can play and attack spin bowling

Unless Pakistan can unearth a Saqlain or a Ajmal it would better to try and get some decent pitches that have some life in them.

 

[pak.cricket]

I think this idea will work wonders for our batsmen. we do have some very good players of spin like agha and saud. Moreover, our last 2 series wins came again bangladesh and srilanka on turning tracks. this shows that pakistan can actually play spin well. Also, if we get spin friendly wickets in domestics, we will see more spinners topping the bowling charts. Its a lie that pakistan do not have any good spinners. The thing is that pitches in domestics are so bad that no spinner in the world can do anything on these pitches.

 

[Varun]

Poor idea

It worked for India because
1) You need quality spin bowlers who can take advantage of the pitch — India had Ashwin, Jadeja, Yadav, Patel (nearly Test 1000 wickets between them). Who have Pakistan got ? (Abrar has played six Tests and has 38 wickets)

2) You need batsmen who can play and attack spin bowling

Unless Pakistan can unearth a Saqlain or a Ajmal it would better to try and get some decent pitches that have some life in them.

It hasn't worked for us all the time. Remember the likes of Simon Harmer and Steve O'Keefe?

 

[gazza619]

Hire indian curator

Plus hire Indian chairman to head PCB, and Indian Army Chief. All problems solved.

 

[TheSultan]

This thread discusses solutions to put an end to the misery and confusion:

1. Give a shout to some Indian or Sri Lankan curators and ask them to create some spin-friendly tracks in Pakistan.
2. Scout the best spinners in domestic cricket and get them working with a solid spin coach at the NCA.
3. Always include 2 specialist spinners in our home Test line-ups to help them develop.
4. Pick batters who can handle spin well and develop them.
5. Turn our home ground into a fortress, especially against non-Asian teams.

Discuss.

And people wonder why we haven’t had a prolific fast bowler since Waqar Younis!

This is a very bad idea for a few reasons.

Even if it succeeds we will just become a home team. Forget trying to win anything in England, NZ, SA and Aus.

And to even succeed you need some good spinners. We have zero. Maybe Abrar, but it remains to be proven. And you can’t base a strategy around one bowler who you don’t know enough about cos he never gets any chances! Every test playing side has better spinners than us, and even they don’t base strategy around solely spin.

We produce more seamers. It’s better to make them better than to have a strategy around resources you don’t have.

 

[giri26]

It hasn't worked for us all the time. Remember the likes of Simon Harmer and Steve O'Keefe?

India could take that risk because they had Ashwin and Jadeja. Any wicket which helps bowlers (Spin or pace) can backfire. We have seen this repeatedly in England, New Zealand and South Africa as well but the point is that majority if the time you should be able to win. India 9 times out of 10 will win in those conditions, the question is if Pakistan can do that?

 

[FastBowlingAllrounder]

Aside from stupid selection decisions like dropping Abrar from the squad for the Bangla series, Pakistan has also struggled to produce quality spinners in the past decade.

This comes down to the nature of domestic FC pitches and also the decision to use different balls over the past decade which usually favor seamers. This has led to a lack of quality red-ball spinners. Any half-decent spinner will try and chance their hat in PSL to make a quick buck and basically become Usama Mir or Shadab-esque or, even worse, Imad-esque and not be a red-ball quality spinner at all.

This has also meant all our red-ball batsmen are inexperienced at playing quality spin on rank turners and if PCT were to hypothetically play in India or anywhere similar, they'd be exposed. Hell, Keshav Maharaj might even run rings around the current Test batting order.

If you want to create a fortress centered on rank turners, you must build from the ground up. Start creating rank turners in FC cricket to incentivize a. proper spinners to come through the ranks, get more overs in FC games, etc. and b. give our batsmen exposure to playing spin for hours on end on a dusty pitch on days 3 and 4 of an FC game. Then, start including the top performers in national camps, etc. and slotting 2-3 of them into the national Test squad. And for the love of all that is Holy, keep them away from PSL or over-saturating them in white-ball cricket.

 

[FastBowlingAllrounder]

And people wonder why we haven’t had a prolific fast bowler since Waqar Younis!

This is a very bad idea for a few reasons.

Even if it succeeds we will just become a home team. Forget trying to win anything in England, NZ, SA and Aus.

And to even succeed you need some good spinners. We have zero. Maybe Abrar, but it remains to be proven. And you can’t base a strategy around one bowler who you don’t know enough about cos he never gets any chances! Every test playing side has better spinners than us, and even they don’t base strategy around solely spin.

We produce more seamers. It’s better to make them better than to have a strategy around resources you don’t have.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad idea.

With the current dismal state of PCT, even drawing at home right now seems like an achievement. Therefore, becoming a home-track bully team that is marginally competitive in say, SL or on a slow wicket in SA or something like Sydney in Australia is a massive improvement.

And I'm pretty sure everyone HAS already forgotten about winning anything in Eng, NZ, SA, and Aus. Barring England, when was the last time we really won anything in the other 3 countries?

As for why we haven't produced prolific fast bowlers - it's because for decades our domestic pitches and selections favored trundlers who ran in faster than they bowled and the rare, good fast-bowling talents we did produce were either mismanaged, got repeatedly injured due to PCB's medieval-era medical practices, spot-fixed, sold their soul to the franchise devil, etc. etc.

There are a multitude of factors at play, but I think producing spin-friendly pitches in FC or playing Tests in the UAE for 5-6 years where we defaulted to a spin-heavy strategy isn't at the top of said list because I can't recall PCB ever doing the former and as for the latter, I think it was a good exploitation of a crappy situation which ultimately led the team to #1 ranking in tests.

I completely agree with your points regarding Abrar though. Brainless decision.

 

[giri26]

And people wonder why we haven’t had a prolific fast bowler since Waqar Younis!

This is a very bad idea for a few reasons.

Even if it succeeds we will just become a home team. Forget trying to win anything in England, NZ, SA and Aus.

And to even succeed you need some good spinners. We have zero. Maybe Abrar, but it remains to be proven. And you can’t base a strategy around one bowler who you don’t know enough about cos he never gets any chances! Every test playing side has better spinners than us, and even they don’t base strategy around solely spin.

We produce more seamers. It’s better to make them better than to have a strategy around resources you don’t have.

To be frank India fast bowlers have done exceptionally well in the last decade on such wickets. People think only Ashwin & Jadeja + Axar and Kuldeep are the reason for our wins but the difference has been between what our pacers can do in comparison to the visiting ones.

In last 10 years these are the averages of main Indian pacers

U Yadav - 83 wickets at 25
Shami - 65 wickets at 23
Ishant - 42 wickets at 28
Bumrah - 33 wickets at 16
B Kumar - 18 wickets at 20
Siraj - 13 wickets at 34

So having such wickets does not mean that the pacers are completely out of the picture. They obviously need to know to take advantage of the rough surfaces and use it to their advantage.

 

[BouncerGuy]

This idea won't work because pakistan does not have a quality spin attack themselves to bundle the opposition out. But they will struggle against any spinner of the opposition even if he is playing his 1st game here.

Out batters are pathetic led by the great shan masood. We need to change them instead of crying for pitches.

 

[uppercut]

To be frank India fast bowlers have done exceptionally well in the last decade on such wickets. People think only Ashwin & Jadeja + Axar and Kuldeep are the reason for our wins but the difference has been between what our pacers can do in comparison to the visiting ones.

In last 10 years these are the averages of main Indian pacers

U Yadav - 83 wickets at 25
Shami - 65 wickets at 23
Ishant - 42 wickets at 28
Bumrah - 33 wickets at 16
B Kumar - 18 wickets at 20
Siraj - 13 wickets at 34

So having such wickets does not mean that the pacers are completely out of the picture. They obviously need to know to take advantage of the rough surfaces and use it to their advantage.

I was going to say the exact same thing !

 

[Speedster1]

At the moment teams like England are light years ahead in how they have developed and are developing their young spinners. Take a look at example of Rehan Ahmed/Shoaib Bashir. In and around the test teams even nowhere near finished articles but they have been identified for the long term.

Then you have likes of Farhan Ahmed + tazeem ali playing for eng lions. Offie and the latter a leggie. Ones for future for sure. I can’t say I’m not jealous of englands current spin resources. I didn’t think I would ever say that, looking at our rich spin history.

 

[RyanRyan10]

It hasn't worked for us all the time. Remember the likes of Simon Harmer and Steve O'Keefe?

Nothing in cricket works all the time. India is undefeated at home for 11+ years. Only Aus and England have been able to win test matches here in this period. W/L ratio is 10.

 

[aukhan]

Our overrated pace attack hasn’t won us anything in the last 15 years. Its better to rely on spinners from now on.

 

[Markhor]

Aside from stupid selection decisions like dropping Abrar from the squad for the Bangla series, Pakistan has also struggled to produce quality spinners in the past decade.

This comes down to the nature of domestic FC pitches and also the decision to use different balls over the past decade which usually favor seamers. This has led to a lack of quality red-ball spinners. Any half-decent spinner will try and chance their hat in PSL to make a quick buck and basically become Usama Mir or Shadab-esque or, even worse, Imad-esque and not be a red-ball quality spinner at all.

This has also meant all our red-ball batsmen are inexperienced at playing quality spin on rank turners and if PCT were to hypothetically play in India or anywhere similar, they'd be exposed. Hell, Keshav Maharaj might even run rings around the current Test batting order.

If you want to create a fortress centered on rank turners, you must build from the ground up. Start creating rank turners in FC cricket to incentivize a. proper spinners to come through the ranks, get more overs in FC games, etc. and b. give our batsmen exposure to playing spin for hours on end on a dusty pitch on days 3 and 4 of an FC game. Then, start including the top performers in national camps, etc. and slotting 2-3 of them into the national Test squad. And for the love of all that is Holy, keep them away from PSL or over-saturating them in white-ball cricket.

My nomination for POTW. Nailed it.

The key is varied pitches in FC cricket so our youngsters are equipped to counter all the possible conditions they'd face in Test cricket.

However PCB keep lurching from one extreme to the other. From 2004-19 we rolled out green mambas in an ill-advised attempt to improve our overseas Test record. Domestic cricket became a military medium's paradise with very few spinners in the wicket-taking charts. We even had one game in 2017 with seven Pakistani internationals ending in 4.5 sessions.

Then since 2019 our FC pitches have become uniformly slow and low. Last season at Gaddafi Stadium alone there were two scores of 700.

Each venue should have its unique character. Rawalpindi and Islamabad can be green, English style seamers. Lahore might be a quick, bouncy track. Karachi and Multan could be typical Asian turners etc.

Also should go without saying - the balls used for our home Tests and in QEA Trophy should be the same !

 

[TheSultan]

To be frank India fast bowlers have done exceptionally well in the last decade on such wickets. People think only Ashwin & Jadeja + Axar and Kuldeep are the reason for our wins but the difference has been between what our pacers can do in comparison to the visiting ones.

In last 10 years these are the averages of main Indian pacers

U Yadav - 83 wickets at 25
Shami - 65 wickets at 23
Ishant - 42 wickets at 28
Bumrah - 33 wickets at 16
B Kumar - 18 wickets at 20
Siraj - 13 wickets at 34

So having such wickets does not mean that the pacers are completely out of the picture. They obviously need to know to take advantage of the rough surfaces and use it to their advantage.

Are these the stats at home or away? Or combined.

Regardless, India are miles ahead of Pakistan. They can pick and choose how they fare in different conditions.

Us going for a spin strategy is putting sticky plaster on the problem rather than fixing at source. That’s exactly what misbah’s reign was all about and now that we don’t have any decent spinners anymore, we don’t know what to do.

It’s always best to have a more rounded strategy which gives you the flexibility for different conditions. We are losing, we might as well use this time to improve overall that a strategy that we don’t even have the resources for

 

[Farabi]

This idea won't work because pakistan does not have a quality spin attack themselves to bundle the opposition out. But they will struggle against any spinner of the opposition even if he is playing his 1st game here.

Out batters are pathetic led by the great shan masood. We need to change them instead of crying for pitches.

I saw a lot of these comments.

Didn’t Pakistan defeat SL in SL 2-0 last year where Pakistani spinners took 23 wickets.
Nauman Ali took 7 wickets in his last match I think.
Abrar Ahmed has 38 wickets in 6 matches. What does he need to do?

Are spinners getting enough chances? In White Ball, have Usman Qadir and Usama Mir got enough chances.

 

[Bhaijaan]

When you try to artificially create a spinning pitch in SC it ends up a rank turner where even the opposition’s ordinary spinners can wreck havoc. This is one of the reasons we lost a few tests at home during the last decade.

A good pitch in the SC will naturally help quality spinners. You can no longer hide your weakness. So aim should always be to put a competitive team out there that can do everything well. Umesh Yadav, Shami, Bumrah have all bowled brilliantly in Bharat in test cricket.

You need quality pitches that help everyone to allow for genuine growth of cricket in your country.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I saw a lot of these comments.

Didn’t Pakistan defeat SL in SL 2-0 last year where Pakistani spinners took 23 wickets.
Nauman Ali took 7 wickets in his last match I think.
Abrar Ahmed has 38 wickets in 6 matches. What does he need to do?

Are spinners getting enough chances? In White Ball, have Usman Qadir and Usama Mir got enough chances.

It is not easy to prepare condition-friendly wickets in Pakistan. The wickets here are generally pretty flat most of the time in the game as we have seen in the 1st test match. Everybody was saying green green green, support for pacers etc etc. But look how it turned out?

Pakistan has only 1 good spinner atm in ABRAR, and he was rested. this is how PCB thinks. Can you expect them to make any sensible decisions??

 

[Buffet]

In last 10 years these are the averages of main Indian pacers

U Yadav - 83 wickets at 25
Shami - 65 wickets at 23
Ishant - 42 wickets at 28
Bumrah - 33 wickets at 16
B Kumar - 18 wickets at 20
Siraj - 13 wickets at 34

Indian bowlers are able to use the pitch a lot better and far more skillful with new and old ball. That's why such a great numbers for Indians pacers at home. Also, Indian pitches have lots of variety and that helps bowlers to develop skills to bowl in all surfaces.

Solution for Pakistan should be to have variety in pitches at home. Going for green mamaba or highway or rank turners everywhere will not help. Have variety.

 

[Buffet]

Are these the stats at home or away? Or combined.

Regardless, India are miles ahead of Pakistan. They can pick and choose how they fare in different conditions.

Us going for a spin strategy is putting sticky plaster on the problem rather than fixing at source. That’s exactly what misbah’s reign was all about and now that we don’t have any decent spinners anymore, we don’t know what to do.

It’s always best to have a more rounded strategy which gives you the flexibility for different conditions. We are losing, we might as well use this time to improve overall that a strategy that we don’t even have the resources for

It should be pacers record in India because I am sure Bumrah does not average 16 in tests ( home and away combined).

I agree with your views. Having well rounded pitches with variety will help Pakistan in the long term. Bowlers will get used to bowl in all kinds of surfaces. Putting rank turner everyehere won't help. Some people are wrongly saying that Indians put rank turners all the time. That's not true. They do throw rank turners time to time but they have lots of variety in pitches.

 

[Hawkeye]

The solution is simple.

We need Misbah ul Haq, the King of Pakistan’s Test cricket in the last 2 decades, calling the shots for our Test team.

These Gullespies, Mickey Arthurs etc. are NOT going to work and have just destroyed our Test team.

Misbah along with Younis were true dominators of spin bowling.

He knew how to lay trap against the opposition in the 5 days of Test cricket.

He got us the results. He made us a Test cricket fortress.

He took us to the number 1 ranking in Test cricket.

We need him now to make Pakistan’s grand Test strategy and restore the Spin Domination game through which we have always trapped touring teams.

 

[TheSultan]

It should be pacers record in India because I am sure Bumrah does not average 16 in tests ( home and away combined).

I agree with your views. Having well rounded pitches with variety will help Pakistan in the long term. Bowlers will get used to bowl in all kinds of surfaces. Putting rank turner everyehere won't help. Some people are wrongly saying that Indians put rank turners all the time. That's not true. They do throw rank turners time to time but they have lots of variety in pitches.

Yea I do troll Indian pacers a bit on here. But I respect India setting up the MRF pace academy and maybe other satellite pace centres. It took a while but it is paying dividends now. It’s not even about pace, every Indian pacer that comes to international cricket does seem to have good skills and polished fundamentals.

I respect that.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan batters cannot play spin. You can see in the current match as well. Absolutely clueless.

 

[Savak]

Indians use their own local sg ball for their home test matches.

Why is Pakistan so stuck on using the kookaburra ball for their home test test matches when its been proven that the kookaburra ball is only good for Australian and South African pitches?

Why can't we use our own local balls for our test matches at home especially the balls being used for our domestic 3-4 day games?

 

[Varun]

Indians use their own local sg ball for their home test matches.

Why is Pakistan so stuck on using the kookaburra ball for their home test test matches when its been proven that the kookaburra ball is only good for Australian and South African pitches?

Why can't we use our own local balls for our test matches at home especially the balls being used for our domestic 3-4 day games?

I hope the logic isn't that "If India is using it, we shouldn't use it".

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Indians use their own local sg ball for their home test matches.

Why is Pakistan so stuck on using the kookaburra ball for their home test test matches when its been proven that the kookaburra ball is only good for Australian and South African pitches?

Why can't we use our own local balls for our test matches at home especially the balls being used for our domestic 3-4 day games?

It's not been proven at all. Kookaburra is a very good ball now. Much better than that rubbish Dukes ball .

 

[mominsaigol]

If Pakistan becomes a spin fortress then Pakistan will out for 100 every game lol

 

[Minnowbasher]

First experiment this in domestic cricket - create batsmen that can play spin and then replicate those pitches in internationals.
When there is lack of congruence between pitches in domestics and internationals then there are problems.

 

[AAli98]

Worth the risk,most likely Rehan Ahmed will pick up 5 wickets & outbowl murali Abra.

Heard his brother a spinners aswell made his county debut picked up 7 wickets.

 

[batandballbattle]

This approach worked in the UAE because we used to have batsmen with good techniques against spin. Now we have no one. Add that to the fact we need to groom at least 2 good spinners and you're looking at a comprehensive overhaul which is unlikely