PCB should conduct a spin camp along with data analysis of all spinners

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We have seen many fast bowlers pace camps having been held over the years whenever Pepsi wants to run a marketing campaign, but this time around i think Pakistan needs to do a proper spin camp.

The spin camp should invite all the professional cricketers that bowl spin in Pakistan, and make them do a 4 week camp. In this camp, they should bowl on every kind of wicket that cricket provides, but with a white ball. (You dont need to select your red ball spinners through such ways, first class cricket is good enough for that purpose)

The batter should include our best players of spin and even a few ex cricketers that were very good players of spinners.

Cricvet does data analysis in cricket, there services should be hired to do data analysis of every spinner.

Now the data analysis part should be the main focus. The highest wicket taking spinner should not mean that he is the best bowler. Usman Qadir is a very good example that if you go on his cricinfo profile, you see his international stats, you will think he is a very good spinner but was not given a proper run.

Data analysis should be done like this

How many times the bowler pitches the ball at the same place : Line and Length Check
The degree of turn in his bowling : Spin Check
Whether someone is not getting spin due to their action : Action Analysis
How many other deliveries they can bowl and their landing consistency : Variety Check
How many half pitchers and full tosses were bowled: Again Line and Length Check

There can be many other variables aswell.

The idea should be that after this camp, to take out the spinner that has the best line and length and could also turn the ball.

The full toss bowlers need to be plucked out. (Usman Qadir, Shadab, Usama Mir)
The no turn bowlers but good line and length ones should also be plucked out. (Imad and Nawaz)

These plucked out bowlers should be red flagged, while the concentration should be on the spinners that spin and offer turn. Reason being, Usama Mir bowling 3 good balls and 3 bad bowls did not help us, infact it only led to Pakistan getting hit for more runs. Bowlers like Nawaz and Imad that dont turn, they are useless. We have argued in lengths that Nawaz should play when Imad was playing and vice versa, but point is, they both dont offer anything and waste the space of a spinner.




Side note:

Afridi was a bowler that got selected in Pakistan team on the basis of raw data. Proper analysis was not done, but when the guy was bowling leg spin, the only reason he landed in the team was because he did not bowl a single full toss in the nets. That was on the basis of raw analysis, now think about if Data Analysis was done, than a better bowler than Afridi could had been unearthed. ( I know Afridi is a bad example, but he was a bowler that got in the team based on such analysis)
 
One line that i wanted to add above the side note.


The remaining spinners that spin and bowl at proper line and length should have a further 1 week camp to see if they are threatening the batsman. If they are not, than why not? Than the best bowlers from this lot should be focused on and make the first class and list a teams and than Pakistan team.
 
A camp should have been done two years ago.

Checking which bowlers bowl line and length will not work in a camp though as you need to see if they are consistent in real matches. Bowling in nets etc is easy
 
A camp should have been done two years ago.

Checking which bowlers bowl line and length will not work in a camp though as you need to see if they are consistent in real matches. Bowling in nets etc is easy
It is if there is data being recorded. A net is good enough for line and length check.

But a camp will have real matches aswell too.
 
Good idea , but as I said before , the likes of Shadab and Nawaz were selected based on fluke performances in a PSL which was played on rank turners in UAE. Based on these fluke performances they managed to jump the queue over performing spinners in the domestics ie Zafar Gohar.

They then banker on these players for long time I guess hoping that they would develop but they just don’t have the ability and the board has just wasted many years on these failures.
 
Good idea , but as I said before , the likes of Shadab and Nawaz were selected based on fluke performances in a PSL which was played on rank turners in UAE. Based on these fluke performances they managed to jump the queue over performing spinners in the domestics ie Zafar Gohar.

They then banker on these players for long time I guess hoping that they would develop but they just don’t have the ability and the board has just wasted many years on these failures.
because data analysis was not done. I had pointed out many times that Shadab bowls full tosses and Nawaz doesnt spin. This was evident to the naked eye. Even someone like Usman Qadir looks great on the number of wickets he has taken, but upon analysis you wont see all his 6 balls in one spot. It will 2 full tosses and 2 half pithces.
 
Mushtaq Ahmed and Saqlain Mushtaq have been involved with the national team, NCA for a long time. By now these two should have been able to groom and produce a couple of spinners for Pakistan by now. These two have done zilch for Pakistan for now.
 
Shoaib Malik made an interesting suggestion to batters to improve their game against spin. He made a few points suggesting that unless you posses the ability to use your feet and hit the spinner straight back over his head for six, no spinner worth his salt is going to fear you.

He also made other suggestions ie bat in the nets without wearing any pads so that you are absolutely determined to ensure the ball doesn't hit your pads and you are well prepared come match day. The other suggestion he made is to actually wicket keep in the nets against the spinners so that you are able to pick the bowler better.

Pakistan needs to study Sarfaraz Ahmed in terms of how he plays spin ie he can cut, pull, back foot punch on the leg side, down the ground, straight drive down the ground, use his feet to play the big shot, reverse sweep and sweep of any full length. The best player of spin in Pakistan.
 
Mushtaq Ahmed and Saqlain Mushtaq have been involved with the national team, NCA for a long time. By now these two should have been able to groom and produce a couple of spinners for Pakistan by now. These two have done zilch for Pakistan for now.
I think they are nowhere near the current setup. The personnel change with political affiliations it seems. Consultant means general dogsbody.

What I find genuinely sad is this. I saw mush given so much respect and attention when he was part of the England set up as a spin coach. He was genuinely part of a coaching team that had all their roles worked out and looked to really develop a squad of spinners.

In Pakistan he just looks like he is relegated to the sidelines and just utilised on an adhoc basis. Of all the wasted talents, the lack of utility of ex cricketers especially when they have international coaching experience really hurts.
 
I think they are nowhere near the current setup. The personnel change with political affiliations it seems. Consultant means general dogsbody.

What I find genuinely sad is this. I saw mush given so much respect and attention when he was part of the England set up as a spin coach. He was genuinely part of a coaching team that had all their roles worked out and looked to really develop a squad of spinners.

In Pakistan he just looks like he is relegated to the sidelines and just utilised on an adhoc basis. Of all the wasted talents, the lack of utility of ex cricketers especially when they have international coaching experience really hurts.

Mushtaq Ahmed has been in charge of NCA for a while. He has also travelled on and off with the Pakistani team as the spin bowling coach. He has had enough opportunity to make an impact in Pakistan Cricket especially when it comes to producing spinners and he has failed. Same goes for Saqlain Mushtaq as well.
 
Mushtaq Ahmed has been in charge of NCA for a while. He has also travelled on and off with the Pakistani team as the spin bowling coach. He has had enough opportunity to make an impact in Pakistan Cricket especially when it comes to producing spinners and he has failed. Same goes for Saqlain Mushtaq as well.
I think this is old news not current. Roughly 2020 I think but these are short term contracts for one reason or another they end prematurely or are not as effective as can be. I think he is reduced to the role of consultant

But given the dearth of quality spinners in Pakistan the issue needs addressing as it’s becoming critical.
 
The fast bowling camps are waste of time and so will be the spin bowling camps. I think people don't realise that this is a PCB issue because it's the wickets( low and slow) that encourage wicket to wicket bowlers and not the guys who give it a rip.
But we know the PCB never had and never will have any interest in PK cricket. This ain't changing and if we do get some freakish spinners, it's by accident then by any design
 
The fast bowling camps are waste of time and so will be the spin bowling camps. I think people don't realise that this is a PCB issue because it's the wickets( low and slow) that encourage wicket to wicket bowlers and not the guys who give it a rip.
But we know the PCB never had and never will have any interest in PK cricket. This ain't changing and if we do get some freakish spinners, it's by accident then by any design
Fast bowling camps were a waste because of two things. One it was a marketing gimmack by the sponsoring company, second the metrics were bowling speed. Whoever bowled the fastest was emerged as the top talent, while a person like abbas would be ignored.

For a camp to be succesful you need to have a proper objective set and also metrics on which the players would be judged
 
Fast bowling camps were a waste because of two things. One it was a marketing gimmack by the sponsoring company, second the metrics were bowling speed. Whoever bowled the fastest was emerged as the top talent, while a person like abbas would be ignored.

For a camp to be succesful you need to have a proper objective set and also metrics on which the players would be judged
Spin bowling is about spin and the subtleties that are called guile. Guile is learnt through experience gained by playing in matches. Warne said that Monty didn't play 50 tests, he played one test 50 times. Your proposal needs to be used as a metric for a open trial for people that haven't played FC.
 
Interesting to know the point in which Malik said 'bat in the nets without wearing pads'. Kevin pietersen revealed that Dravid said him the exact same thing and also asked him to put his bat in front of his pad and not have the bat beside the pad. This was during the famous 2012 series in which England beat India at our home. Malik himself was a good player of spin, so makes sense.
 
We need to put a pause to camps and high performance centers and focus on domestic structure. Camps and HPC focus on celing events in idealized conditions, in a match situation a well disguised straighter one or googly isn't worth much if bowled in between 11 loose deliveries.
 
Interesting to know the point in which Malik said 'bat in the nets without wearing pads'. Kevin pietersen revealed that Dravid said him the exact same thing and also asked him to put his bat in front of his pad and not have the bat beside the pad. This was during the famous 2012 series in which England beat India at our home. Malik himself was a good player of spin, so makes sense.
Apparently Javed Miandad used to practice without pads against spin too and encouraged this drill when coach.
 
For me the person ( inadvertently) who has done lots of damage to PK spin is Imad. He created the template thay other spinners copied and made them realise that they could make a great living with no spin, and just a a bit of inswing/slide.
 
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i have little hope from sufiyan muqeem but he is still very inexperienced and relay heavily on his googly .He needs to develop good leg spin and learn how to setup the batsmen
 
For me the person ( inadvertently)who has done lots of damage to PK spin is Imad. He created the template thay other spinners copied and made them realise that they could make a great living with no spin, and just a a bit of inswing/slide.
It’s also the think tank that doesn’t challenge the template.
 
Spin bowling is about spin and the subtleties that are called guile. Guile is learnt through experience gained by playing in matches. Warne said that Monty didn't play 50 tests, he played one test 50 times. Your proposal needs to be used as a metric for a open trial for people that haven't played FC.
This.
I am also not a big fan of these “camps”, not gonna lie. It feels like a band aid solution.
I know a lot of people are saying improve FC. But it’s not like we pick FC performers anyway?
Abrar was the table topper spinner in FC last year but did he get an ODI game to assess his potential ?
Zafar Gohar could not buy a game either.
 
For me the person ( inadvertently) who has done lots of damage to PK spin is Imad. He created the template thay other spinners copied and made them realise that they could make a great living with no spin, and just a a bit of inswing/slide.
Nope, t20 caused this.

Spinners like Imad have existed before, Shahid Afridi is the best example as he had no spin and as soon as Afridi retired did Imad come in. Even hafeez and Moeen did this.

But T20 caused this as in T20 darters save you plus some teams go for allrounders.

I believe, an Imad type spinner can play but if he is a batter, like Hafeez or how Rizwan used Khushdil Shah in PSL.

A main spinner bowling like that is a big issue.
 
Nope, t20 caused this.

Spinners like Imad have existed before, Shahid Afridi is the best example as he had no spin and as soon as Afridi retired did Imad come in. Even hafeez and Moeen did this.

But T20 caused this as in T20 darters save you plus some teams go for allrounders.

I believe, an Imad type spinner can play but if he is a batter, like Hafeez or how Rizwan used Khushdil Shah in PSL.

A main spinner bowling like that is a big issue.
But Ind and Eng play more T20 than anyone and I am watching Livingstone and Rashid spin the ball, I will see Jadeja and Yadav turn the ball, i the tournament i have seen Santner also turn the ball and not just bowl darts. Why have our bowlers stopped spinning the ball at all. The influence of T20 has had an impact on spinners of all countries but why have ours stopped turning the ball? Its more about who they use as a template and our bowlers see Imad.
 
But Ind and Eng play more T20 than anyone and I am watching Livingstone and Rashid spin the ball, I will see Jadeja and Yadav turn the ball, i the tournament i have seen Santner also turn the ball and not just bowl darts. Why have our bowlers stopped spinning the ball at all. The influence of T20 has had an impact on spinners of all countries but why have ours stopped turning the ball? Its more about who they use as a template and our bowlers see Imad.
they play other formats as well like jadeja and kuldeep and Santander and rashid they are all formatter spinners are not they don't play domestic
 
Nope, t20 caused this.

Spinners like Imad have existed before, Shahid Afridi is the best example as he had no spin and as soon as Afridi retired did Imad come in. Even hafeez and Moeen did this.

But T20 caused this as in T20 darters save you plus some teams go for allrounders.

I believe, an Imad type spinner can play but if he is a batter, like Hafeez or how Rizwan used Khushdil Shah in PSL.

A main spinner bowling like that is a big issue.
Afridi used to get so much drift and turn noy sure which version of him you saw.
The problem is not T20 it's the domestic pitches and emphasis on first class. in 2021 I was watching an U-13 final streamed in YouTube between two Schools of Pakistan can't remember the name. There were 6-7 kids turning the ball big. Such talents need to be groomed and polished
 
they play other formats as well like jadeja and kuldeep and Santander and rashid they are all formatter spinners are not they don't play domestic
My point is that they value a guy that turns the ball. We picked Imad, he was "successful", and other spinners saw this tripe and copied this template and here we are today with the worst spinners in the World. I know its more nuanced that and I am also not blaming Imad for making a successful living, but its a factor.
 
Scrap domestic cricket, use street cricket for PSL selection and PSL for national selection. Redirect surplus funds to football.
 
i have little hope from sufiyan muqeem but he is still very inexperienced and relay heavily on his googly .He needs to develop good leg spin and learn how to setup the batsmen
He hasn't even played any FC matches, how is he meant to develop?

Shocking from the pcb, as usual.
 
Afridi used to get so much drift and turn noy sure which version of him you saw.
The problem is not T20 it's the domestic pitches and emphasis on first class. in 2021 I was watching an U-13 final streamed in YouTube between two Schools of Pakistan can't remember the name. There were 6-7 kids turning the ball big. Such talents need to be groomed and polished
afridi dint spin that much, it was drift. He would turn the ball once in a while. But his spin was never like a proper spinners.

Afridi survived on his variety and perfect line and length. The guy would never miss his line. I was a big critic of him as he was a terrible batsman and a bowler got 1 wicket per game only. But his accuracy was better than all.
 
the biggest trait a spinner needs to have is a big heart, its the reason why paks spinners freeze under pressure and destroy their lines and lengths.

only two spinners in the top wicket takers in a world cup in india, so its not just a pak problem, the lack of list-a cricket means most spinners dont have the strategy to bowl in odis anymore.

the two guys who are doing well, zampa and santner, dont really the turn the ball that much, so would not qualify on your criteria.

the real issue is a lack of brains, ive said this before, from top to bottom these guys are thick, and bowling spin is one discipline which requires a brain more than the others.

OP is an example of wishful thinking with minimal practical application.
 
the biggest trait a spinner needs to have is a big heart, its the reason why paks spinners freeze under pressure and destroy their lines and lengths.

only two spinners in the top wicket takers in a world cup in india, so its not just a pak problem, the lack of list-a cricket means most spinners dont have the strategy to bowl in odis anymore.

the two guys who are doing well, zampa and santner, dont really the turn the ball that much, so would not qualify on your criteria.

the real issue is a lack of brains, ive said this before, from top to bottom these guys are thick, and bowling spin is one discipline which requires a brain more than the others.

OP is an example of wishful thinking with minimal practical application.
Santner using flights,Zampa has been average but the guys that have controlled the middle are the likes of Jadeja and Yadav.
 
Santner using flights,Zampa has been average but the guys that have controlled the middle are the likes of Jadeja and Yadav.
jadeja is a pedigreed test spinner, he has always been a proper red ball spinner. thats why i didnt include him, because OP was talking about identifying white ball spinners from a 4 week camp.

jadeja and yadav have abt 600 fc wickets between them. pak had one spinner taking wickets at FC level but he missed the FC season to be a non playing back up the WC squad, lol.
 
jadeja is a pedigreed test spinner, he has always been a proper red ball spinner. thats why i didnt include him, because OP was talking about identifying white ball spinners from a 4 week camp.

jadeja and yadav have abt 600 fc wickets between them. pak had one spinner taking wickets at FC level but he missed the FC season to be a non playing back up the WC squad, lol.
As long as our cricketing intellect promotes guys that dont turn the ball, we will be here again and again. Look at the dreadful bowlers in FC QA trophy. I cant accept that we dont have people that can spin the ball in a population of 250mn most of whom are young. I dare say you offer money to young people to turn up to open trials, you would 100s that can spin it, the issue then is talent identification and thats why the PCB have let down PK. Our obsession with overage players at the u19s has also damaged our cricketing and that is directly a PCB issue.
 
The issue is we have the worst spinners even worse than uae or Nepal spinners. We should bring in 3-4 different spinners and groom them plus most of our batters are absolute s*** against spinners how will they going to improve they haven't improved in this WC at all
 
First thing the PCB needs to do is to ban spinners who resort to darting
 
Holding a camp is all well and good, but I would imagine that the selectors and coaches have about as much brains as the players. Concepts like data, analysis or stats would be like a foreign language to most of them.
 
Don't bring the boundaries in. Don't have 60 meter boundaries. That will give your spinners something.
 
As long as our cricketing intellect promotes guys that dont turn the ball, we will be here again and again. Look at the dreadful bowlers in FC QA trophy. I cant accept that we dont have people that can spin the ball in a population of 250mn most of whom are young. I dare say you offer money to young people to turn up to open trials, you would 100s that can spin it, the issue then is talent identification and thats why the PCB have let down PK. Our obsession with overage players at the u19s has also damaged our cricketing and that is directly a PCB issue.
there is no shortage of money in cricket, with the advent of the psl even the second tier of cricketers earn decent money, the idea that kids need to be paid and incentivised to come to trial which dont require specialist equipment doesnt make sense to me, however this is besides the point and propegates the idea that the only problem is talent identification.

i simply dont believe that's true, in the world of professionalized sport the development of talent, technical, physical and mental is as much, if not more important than natural talent. the system does not exist, and a 4 week camp is not the answer.

you need a pyramid structure, which the old PCB paid lip service to, but didn't even bother beyond the headline restructuring of the domestic system which in hindsight was simply to appease imran khan.

the shocking decline of players when they enter the Pakistan set up says everything, theres tonnes of leaks in the PCB's boat and the idea that talent camps can solve the issues is equivalent to tying a helium balloon to the mast.
 
He hasn't even played any FC matches, how is he meant to develop?

Shocking from the pcb, as usual.
it also shows our upcoming cricketers interest lies in easy money of franchise cricket and at best for pakistan t20 team .His willingness would have provided him spot atleast in second 11 squad
 
I actually blame the Saqlain , Afridi era .

Saqlain started darting a lot from 99 onwards especially at the death.

Afridi also was a unique spinner who relied on speed and drift rather than turning the ball.

Too many PAK spinners have tried to emulate them since
 
there is no shortage of money in cricket, with the advent of the psl even the second tier of cricketers earn decent money, the idea that kids need to be paid and incentivised to come to trial which dont require specialist equipment doesnt make sense to me, however this is besides the point and propegates the idea that the only problem is talent identification.

i simply dont believe that's true, in the world of professionalized sport the development of talent, technical, physical and mental is as much, if not more important than natural talent. the system does not exist, and a 4 week camp is not the answer.

you need a pyramid structure, which the old PCB paid lip service to, but didn't even bother beyond the headline restructuring of the domestic system which in hindsight was simply to appease imran khan.

the shocking decline of players when they enter the Pakistan set up says everything, theres tonnes of leaks in the PCB's boat and the idea that talent camps can solve the issues is equivalent to tying a helium balloon to the mast.
Let me clarify about talent identification and paying people. If you are poor, and have to travel large distances, you need resources. It needs to be refined to discourage time wasters but the PCB have no clue about running a cricket board. It exists to reward services rendered.
 
IMG_8270.jpeg
Before yesterday’s game i think, England probably topped the table as usual.
Not only are your spinners bad but your batsmen aren’t able to play them as well.
 
but what about our batters who can't handle spin at all?

They need a training session too.
 
And Pakistan's woes continue with spin in the tournament....


1699081072602.jpeg
 
Zahid Mehmood starts knocking PCB's door through his performances, he is performing well in Pakistan cup 2023. Should selectors consider him for white ball cricket?
 
Nope, t20 caused this.

Spinners like Imad have existed before, Shahid Afridi is the best example as he had no spin and as soon as Afridi retired did Imad come in. Even hafeez and Moeen did this.

But T20 caused this as in T20 darters save you plus some teams go for allrounders.

I believe, an Imad type spinner can play but if he is a batter, like Hafeez or how Rizwan used Khushdil Shah in PSL.

A main spinner bowling like that is a big issue.
Afridi had an X factor at his peak that no other spinner has ever shown in the history of ball tracking.

He could drift the ball at very high speeds unlike almost every other spinner where there is a clear correlation between slower speeds and more drift.

He just didn't have the accuracy of an elite bowler. At least not very often.
 
This is a good and sensible idea that would promote the betterment of Pakistan cricket.

Therefore they will not do it
 
Arafat minhas has the potential to be our Jadeja. Just hope he's not wasted like many before him
 
Australia tour is ahead, and we have not started the spin camp to find a young spinner. I think the load of the spin department will be on Noman Ali only, which I think can't be effective on Australian pitches.
 
Arafat minhas has the potential to be our Jadeja. Just hope he's not wasted like many before him

He is already being wasted. He played in the Asian games & U-19 tours but no FC or Pakistan cup because Pakistan's think tank from international or domestic doesn't have much thinking in them.

If not for PJL, who knows where he would be rotting away.
 
So, Abrar Ahmad and Noman Ali will form the spin attack for Pakistan during the Australia tour in 2023-24. Agha could be part time option. As test squad has been announced
 
The quality of spin bowling in our domestic circuit as we are witnessing in our National T20 cup is very depressing. All the spinners on display are mostly very average and are just net bowlers who roll their arm up every once in a while. This is a grass roots problem where bowlers are discouraged from bowling spin and are content with darting the ball in for 4 overs and thats it.
 
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