Sourav Ganguly or MS Dhoni - Who was the better captain?

[Tusker]

No 1 test rank was offered to him on plate without doing much. We would have won t20 world cup without dhoni.

lol ... Sorry but there is nothing we can discuss rationally with that kind of thinking. Our understanding of cricket is completely different. Cheers!

What's the big deal with that? He got a ready made team for tests & ODI in 2007~11, the team he shaped in 2015 got to the semis mainly because of our fast bowlers, there were big holes even in that squad & hence we lost handsomely against Aus.

The big deal is in the simple fact that no other captain has been able to achieve this and Ganguly did not manufacture a whole team all by himself ... atleast 5 of the big players that he had under him were there in the team before he took over. ... Eg: SRT, RD, VVS, Kumble, Srinath.

 

[ab041937]

The big deal is in the simple fact that no other captain has been able to achieve this and Ganguly did not manufacture a whole team all by himself ... atleast 5 of the big players that he had under him were there in the team before he took over. ... Eg: SRT, RD, VVS, Kumble, Srinath.

No other captain also got a team that had been consistently performing. The fact is Dhoni inherited a team that had already learnt how to win matches overseas whereas, Ganguly took over a team that severely lacked confidence in its abilities to win away from home & even had history going against it. Now the results, Ganguly turned a meek team into fighters that challenged probably the greatest test team ever in its own den while, Dhoni turned a fighting side into school boys that once again started receiving 4-0 phainty by the hands of England/Aussie.

 

[R0H1T]

The big deal is in the simple fact that no other captain has been able to achieve this and Ganguly did not manufacture a whole team all by himself ... atleast 5 of the big players that he had under him were there in the team before he took over. ... Eg: SRT, RD, VVS, Kumble, Srinath.

At least five? I can think of at least ten under Dhoni, so again what's the big deal in us getting to number one in tests under him, or winning the WC for that matter? The other difference being the sides we faced under Ganguly, do you think India would've won against the best ODI team ever if Dhoni were to captain us in the 2003 run chase, or win against the mighty Aussies led by Waugh?

The other point of reference was the 2015 side, which was assembled under him & how soundly they were thrashed in Aus, forget about the test drubbings.

 

[Tusker]

No other captain also got a team that had been consistently performing. The fact is Dhoni inherited a team that had already learnt how to win matches overseas whereas, Ganguly took over a team that severely lacked confidence in its abilities to win away from home & even had history going against it. Now the results, Ganguly turned a meek team into fighters that challenged probably the greatest test team ever in its own den while, Dhoni turned a fighting side into school boys that once again started receiving 4-0 phainty by the hands of England/Aussie.

Really? So the reason why the same team got eliminated from first round of WC 2007 was ...... ?

 

[Tusker]

At least five? I can think of at least ten under Dhoni, so again what's the big deal in us getting to number one in tests under him, or winning the WC for that matter?

because of the bowling we have. Far better Aussie sides with rock-star bowlers couldnt win more. Appreciate that. And if Dhoni inherited such a Gun team with gun players why did we get eliminated from 2007 WC first round with the same players ?

The other difference being the sides we faced under Ganguly, do you think India would've won against the best ODI team ever if Dhoni were to captain us in the 2003 run chase, or win against the mighty Aussies led by Waugh?

I dont think MSD would have bowled first in a big match.

The other point of reference was the 2015 side, which was assembled under him & how soundly they were thrashed in Aus, forget about the test drubbings.

And how many ODI matches did Ganguly win in Aus ? You talk as though Ganguly won a boat load of matches in Aus.

 

[R0H1T]

because of the bowling we have. Far better Aussie sides with rock-star bowlers couldnt win more. Appreciate that. And if Dhoni inherited such a Gun team with gun players why did we get eliminated from 2007 WC first round with the same players ?

The format kicked us out, the very reason why ICC had to change it in subsequent editions. If it were something similar we would've been facing elimination against SA in 2011.

The 2007 team had Dravid captaining btw & that team was vastly different than the 2011 WC squad, in terms of senior personnel & their form as well.

I dont think MSD would have bowled first in a big match.

He would've won us the game with his batting right, lest you forget the game against Aus earlier in the WC, probably on the same ground?

And how many ODI matches did Ganguly win in Aus ? You talk as though Ganguly won a boat load of matches in Aus.

Not many against the 2003 WC holders, how did we do as a WC holder in 2011/12 series under Dhoni?

 

[Tusker]

The format kicked us out, the very reason why ICC had to change it in subsequent editions. If it were something similar we would've been facing elimination against SA in 2011.

No format is going to help you if you lose to likes of BD and SL ... under MSD we pasted a much better BD side in their own backyard.

The 2007 team had Dravid captaining btw & that team was vastly different than the 2011 WC squad, in terms of senior personnel & their form as well.

So then you agree that its not just about having good players ... right ?

He would've won us the game with his batting right, lest you forget the game against Aus earlier in the WC, probably on the same ground?
Not many against the 2003 WC holders, how did we do as a WC holder in 2011/12 series under Dhoni?

Most of the Great Aussie players were still there playing during the 2007/8 CB Series and ofcourse the 2007 S/F ... Dhoni did exceptionally well as a captain.

In 2015 WC we did pretty well to reach the S/F with that team and Kohli out of form ... we beat some tough teams and the Aussie team was vastly superior to us. Do you really expect to win every single match ? It doesnt work that way.

And Ganguly lost 9 out of 11 finals he played in.

 

[Pollack]

lol ... Sorry but there is nothing we can discuss rationally with that kind of thinking. Our understanding of cricket is completely different. Cheer.

Its not about understanding of cricket.It is all about rising above from your blind love for dhoni. Its all about viewing things dispassionately.

Tell me what exactly dhoni did in that t20 world cup. Truth is we had complete overhaul for that world cup and youngsters were hungry for success and making mark.There was no much pressure as well.

Dhoni inherited a strong test team.That is a fact.I am sorry you are oblivious to facts due your love.

 

[ab041937]

Really? So the reason why the same team got eliminated from first round of WC 2007 was ...... ?

Ganguly wasn't the captain of 2007 WC. He took the team to finals in 2003 under his captaincy.

There were several factors to blame for 2007 WC debacle. Format of the tournament (where 1 bad match against BD proved too costly), team being in a state of flux (Rahul Dravid was more of a makeshift captain), & more mportantly, Greg Chappel hadn't been able to bring team together.

 

[Pollack]

Also if you notice I am not talking of world cup 2011 .Even there he did nothing throughout except for finals. The finals innings was outstanding and all is forgiven. I give credit to dhoni for that win along with gambhir as well. I can view things dispassionately. Dhoni should be given credit for world cup 2011 and I certainly give him.No problem there. Don't give him much credit for test no 1 ranking and t20 world cup.

 

[Tusker]

Ganguly wasn't the captain of 2007 WC. He took the team to finals in 2003 under his captaincy.

There were several factors to blame for 2007 WC debacle. Format of the tournament (where 1 bad match against BD proved too costly), team being in a state of flux (Rahul Dravid was more of a makeshift captain), & more mportantly, Greg Chappel hadn't been able to bring team together.

If you want to credit Ganguly for "gifting" Dhoni super-duper superstar gun cricketers that helped him win everything without having to do much then you cannot at the same time lay the blame for 2007 WC on RD.

And who invited Greg Chappell into Indian Cricket ... Ziiiiing !!!

This is why I don't rate Ganguly all that high. Man was a prima donna and completely unprofessional and totally unfit as far as fitness is concerned. Yes he did great things in his times but you gotta be kidding me if you think he was the full package.

 

[R0H1T]

No format is going to help you if you lose to likes of BD and SL ... under MSD we pasted a much better BD side in their own backyard.

Format matters as much as the quality of game we play, what was Aus output in the CT before it became round robin in 2006 IIRC?

So then you agree that its not just about having good players ... right ?

Of course but Dhoni's captaincy is vastly overrated here & on many other boards. You just have to look at the WT20 2009, 2010 & 2012 disasters to know how bad he can be when he's not captaining an in form ideal squad.

Most of the Great Aussie players were still there playing during the 2007/8 CB Series and ofcourse the 2007 S/F ... Dhoni did exceptionally well as a captain.

They weren't, check the 2003 & 2008 squads btw the 2007 WC Aussie squad was inferior to the one in 2003.

In 2015 WC we did pretty well to reach the S/F with that team and Kohli out of form ... we beat some tough teams and the Aussie team was vastly superior to us. Do you really expect to win every single match ? It doesnt work that way.

And Ganguly lost 9 out of 11 finals he played in.

So how do you expect Ganguly to beat the best ODI team ever assembled, the team Ganguly lead was comprised of youngsters as against the seasoned veterans that Dhoni led. Even then Ganguly vastly outperformed Dhoni in the WC as a batter, 2003 vs 2011.

If you aren't winning the most important games then really what are you doing? Surely a great tactician like MSD should've been able to raise his game & the team's when push came to shove. He did neither, hence the OTT praise that he gets for winning the 2011 WC should be reigned in, according to many.

Against much better ODI sides though, also he led a new team to newer horizons.

 

[Drreddymd]

The format kicked us out, the very reason why ICC had to change it in subsequent editions. If it were something similar we would've been facing elimination against SA in 2011.

The 2007 team had Dravid captaining btw & that team was vastly different than the 2011 WC squad, in terms of senior personnel & their form as well.

He would've won us the game with his batting right, lest you forget the game against Aus earlier in the WC, probably on the same ground?
Not many against the 2003 WC holders, how did we do as a WC holder in 2011/12 series under Dhoni?

Give it a rest mate.dhoni is the greatest non performing captain in the world who magically inspired other players in the team to perform above their capabilities.

it has nothing to do with team .dhoni is a like a puppet master who is making the batsmen come good and regarding bowlers they are rubbish and it is dhoni who is making them good with his extraorfinary captaincy.

So now u have to understand that as dhoni is doing so much good work as i said above u have to give him some lee way for his pathetic performances in every icc cup we have won.


Dhoni is so great that he is giving chances to other players to perform instead of him inorder to give credit to the players as he is such a good human being.

 

[Pollack]

Ganguly did bottle in the finals of 2003 but you must understand that Aussie team was head and shoulders above us. We were not going to win against them.

 

[R0H1T]

Give it a rest mate.dhoni is the greatest non performing captain in the world who magically inspired other players in the team to perform above their capabilities.

it has nothing to do with team .dhoni is a like a puppet master who is making the batsmen come good and regarding bowlers they are rubbish and it is dhoni who is making them good with his extraorfinary captaincy.

So now u have to understand that as dhoni is doing so much good work as i said above u have to give him some lee way for his pathetic performances in every icc cup we have won.


Dhoni is so great that he is giving chances to other players to perform instead of him inorder to give credit to the players as he is such a good human being.

Without Ganguly's backdrop there wouldn't be a Dhoni period. Too bad people associate Captain Cool's nostalgia with how great a captain he was supposedly, he wasn't. Although a very good limited overs skipper but not in the top 5 IMO.

 

[ab041937]

No format is going to help you if you lose to likes of BD and SL ... under MSD we pasted a much better BD side in their own backyard.

Even the best BD team doesn't hold a matchstick to the 2003 Aussie Test team. That was probably the greatest test team ever in the history of cricket & Ganguly's boys challenged that team in its own den drawing 1-1.

Most of the Great Aussie players were still there playing during the 2007/8 CB Series and ofcourse the 2007 S/F ... Dhoni did exceptionally well as a captain.

Tendulkar was playing in 1997/98 aswell when he was decimating the best bowlers in the world & the same Tendulkar played in 2007 World Cup aswell when he didn't do a zilch. All Aussie greats were at the fag end of their career. Infact most of them retired after that VB series.

In 2015 WC we did pretty well to reach the S/F with that team and Kohli out of form ... we beat some tough teams and the Aussie team was vastly superior to us. Do you really expect to win every single match ? It doesnt work that way.

We had one exceptional match against South Africa. Rest of the teams we beat were expected results, Pak, West Indies, UAE, Zibabwe, & BD. The moment we met Australia, we were brought down to earth.

Just goes on to show how much 1 bad game or good game can matter. Had a good game against SA in 2015, we sailed through upto Semis. Had one ad game against BD in 2007, & had 1st round elimination.

And Ganguly lost 9 out of 11 finals he played in.

Can someone post stats of how many series we even reached finals before Ganguly took over?

 

[R0H1T]

Ganguly did bottle in the finals of 2003 but you must understand that Aussie team was head and shoulders above us. We were not going to win against them.

That's the point, we wouldn't have won against them barring a miracle regardless if we batted first or second.

 

[Tusker]

Its not about understanding of cricket.It is all about rising above from your blind love for dhoni. Its all about viewing things dispassionately.

It absolutely is about how we understand Cricket and I can discuss Cricketing topics purely on fact basis. But dont expect me to respond to illogical statements.

Even the bottom most ranked team like BD will give you a run for money these days. And you are saying No.1 Test Rank was offered on Plate ...

Tell me what exactly dhoni did in that t20 world cup. Truth is we had complete overhaul for that world cup and youngsters were hungry for success and making mark.There was no much pressure as well.

What he did is reflected in the results ... nobody gave us an outside chance.

Dhoni inherited a strong test team.That is a fact.I am sorry you are oblivious to facts due your love.

Again strong teams dont = Success. Otherwise we would have done well in 2007 WC and not lost Banglore Test to Pakistan and the 2004 Series to Aus ( Guess who ran away from the battle when things got hot in 2004 !) . And we never had Great fast bowlers EVER ! You win Tests only if you have great bowlers. The 2 Best fast bowlers were Javagal and Zack both of whom helped Ganguly more than MSD.

 

[ab041937]

If you want to credit Ganguly for "gifting" Dhoni super-duper superstar gun cricketers that helped him win everything without having to do much then you cannot at the same time lay the blame for 2007 WC on RD.

I've already replied to you that there were several factors that affected. South Africa was also eliminated in 1st round of 2003 WC on their own home soil. Doesn't make SA a bad team.

And who invited Greg Chappell into Indian Cricket ... Ziiiiing !!!

BCCI

This is why I don't rate Ganguly all that high. Man was a prima donna and completely unprofessional and totally unfit as far as fitness is concerned. Yes he did great things in his times but you gotta be kidding me if you think he was the full package.

Unprofessional & unfit Ganguly has more test runs, more ODI runs, & more test match victories than "New Generation" super Captain Dhoni.

 

[Tusker]

Even the best BD team doesn't hold a matchstick to the 2003 Aussie Test team.

And who is comparing the 2 ? Not me.

That was probably the greatest test team ever in the history of cricket & Ganguly's boys challenged that team in its own den drawing 1-1.

You forget to mention the absence of McGrath and Warne. Do you want me to tell what happened when they toured soon after ? Kaptaan great ran away from the heat of the battle as soon as he say a green pitch.

Tendulkar was playing in 1997/98 aswell when he was decimating the best bowlers in the world & the same Tendulkar played in 2007 World Cup aswell when he didn't do a zilch. All Aussie greats were at the fag end of their career. Infact most of them retired after that VB series.

Good so you agree that "handing" over top players doesnt mean success ?

We had one exceptional match against South Africa. Rest of the teams we beat were expected results, Pak, West Indies, UAE, Zibabwe, & BD. The moment we met Australia, we were brought down to earth.

Just goes on to show how much 1 bad game or good game can matter. Had a good game against SA in 2015, we sailed through upto Semis. Had one ad game against BD in 2007, & had 1st round elimination.

Ehh? You are comparing the loss to BD in 2007 to loss vs Aus in 2015 ?

 

[R0H1T]

It absolutely is about how we understand Cricket and I can discuss Cricketing topics purely on fact basis. But dont expect me to respond to illogical statements.

Even the bottom most ranked team like BD will give you a run for money these days. And you are saying No.1 Test Rank was offered on Plate ...

Yet again you twist facts to suit your love for Dhoni, like most others. A true test of a captain comes when he's to see out a storm, Dhoni's failed in that test as much as Ganguly, except Ganguly faced greater odds & better players. In tests they aren't even close.

What he did is reflected in the results ... nobody gave us an outside chance.

He was lucky just admit it, we went in favorites for the 2009 WT20 & his captaincy was found wanting.

Again strong teams dont = Success. Otherwise we would have done well in 2007 WC and not lost Banglore Test to Pakistan and the 2004 Series to Aus ( Guess who ran away from the battle when things got hot in 2004 !) . And we never had Great fast bowlers EVER ! You win Tests only if you have great bowlers. The 2 Best fast bowlers were Javagal and Zack both of whom helped Ganguly more than MSD.

Dhoni conveniently skipped the 2008 SL tor, he also missed the last test of 2011/12 tour down under & then finally jumped ship leaving Virat to fend for himself on the 2014/15 Aus tour. He also sends in youngsters early to face pacers in ODI & tests, when was the last time you saw him take on the best opposition fast bowlers in seamer friendly conditions be it tests or limited overs?

 

[R0H1T]

And who is comparing the 2 ? Not me.



You forget to mention the absence of McGrath and Warne. Do you want me to tell what happened when they toured soon after ? Kaptaan great ran away from the heat of the battle as soon as he say a green pitch.




Good so you agree that "handing" over top players doesnt mean success ?



Ehh? You are comparing the loss to BD in 2007 to loss vs Aus in 2015 ?

Warne was banned for a year, only Mcgrath was missing from their full strength squad. The 2004 debacle was on him but that's the only blot on his otherwise exceptional test resume, remind us what Dhoni did on away tours?

The Bd side also beat SA you know, or did you forget that? The 2015 Aus side was great but then you do expect the GOAT ODI skipper to beat them in a WC semi defying all odds, I'd expect at least this much from captain Marvel or do you have lower standards for him, that he obviously met?

 

[Drreddymd]

Yet again you twist facts to suit your love for Dhoni, like most others. A true test of a captain comes when he's to see out a storm, Dhoni's failed in that test as much as Ganguly, except Ganguly faced greater odds & better players. In tests they aren't even close.

He was lucky just admit it, we went in favorites for the 2009 WT20 & his captaincy was found wanting.

Dhoni conveniently skipped the 2008 SL tor, he also missed the last test of 2011/12 tour down under & then finally jumped ship leaving Virat to fend for himself on the 2014/15 Aus tour. He also sends in youngsters early to face pacers in ODI & tests, when was the last time you saw him take on the best opposition fast bowlers in seamer friendly conditions be it tests or limited overs?

But but dhonis performances are a side show .it is how he helps the team wins is far greater than his actual peformance.

According to his fans he is some kind of supernatural power who is making a pathetic team like india perform so well and win icc tournaments.but the same powers doesnt work for him .the powers he has are only for the greater good of the team and not for his selfish performances

 

[Pollack]

The Bd side also beat SA you know, or did you forget that? The 2015 Aus side was great but then you do expect the GOAT ODI skipper to beat them in a WC semi defying all odds, I'd expect at least this much from captain Marvel or do you have lower standards for him, that he obviously met?

In 2015 world cup we had good start chasing a mammoth total.Then 3 wickets fall and that's it. Rahane and dhoni were playing.Rahane did not have much capabilities to accelerate yet was trying hard .On the other hand captain cool and great already gave up.Was not captain more capable to accelerate and rahane doing anchor? What kind of leadership or tactic is from magician tactician great dhoni.

 

[Tusker]

I've already replied to you that there were several factors that affected. South Africa was also eliminated in 1st round of 2003 WC on their own home soil. Doesn't make SA a bad team.

And how does that still prove your point about Ganguly manufacturing and gifting worldclass cricketers to Dhoni ?

BCCI

Wrong answer. It was Ganguly who begged Greg to come over and take John Wrights position. The BCCI merely obliged. Its another thing that he got screwed by Greg properly but tell me something new about captain confused.

Unprofessional & unfit Ganguly has more test runs, more ODI runs, & more test match victories than "New Generation" super Captain Dhoni.

Because he didn't have to Keep wkts ... I can assure you that his royal laziness the Maharaja would not play a quarter of the cricket he did if he had to keep wkts and dive around like MSD.

And you are dead wrong about Matches won.

Link (Tests) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

ODIs :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

 

[Pollack]

Ganguly was responsible for Greg chapel appointed but mistakes do happen.This we know because we have media bytes.Who knows what dhoni did in background politics.For whose selection he was responsible and for whose not? Media is much better managed today about such things than past.

 

[ab041937]

And who is comparing the 2 ? Not me.

Let me Quote you "under MSD we pasted a much better BD side in their own backyard" - Post#87.

You forget to mention the absence of McGrath and Warne. Do you want me to tell what happened when they toured soon after ? Kaptaan great ran away from the heat of the battle as soon as he say a green pitch.

"Warne" is a name you can use to scare Pak, SA, Eng, WI. Given his record against India, its more likely he chickened out. McGrath had toured India in 2001 when Ganguly's men stopped Aussie juggernaut of 16 straight Test match wins. Don't think he would've made much difference anyway against rampaging Laxman, Dravid, Tendulkar, & Ganguly.

It takes a team to stop a team. One player here & there doesn't matter much

Good so you agree that "handing" over top players doesnt mean success ?

Agreement with you??? Then you are contradicting yourself when on one hand, you say that top players doesn't mean success while otoh, you are invoking the absence of Warne & McGrath to discredit Ganguly's success.

Ehh? You are comparing the loss to BD in 2007 to loss vs Aus in 2015 ?

I am talking about the World Cup format. Loss to BD in 2007 got us 1st round exit whereas, victory against SA in 2015 saw us top the table & sail through to Semis w/o much challenge.

 

[R0H1T]

And how does that still prove your point about Ganguly manufacturing and gifting worldclass cricketers to Dhoni ?

The likes of Sehwag, Yuvraj, Zaheer & Harbhajan owe their name & fame a lot to Ganguly. You check their best years & tell me how captain Marvel reaped the rewards of these players' hardwork, all by himself.

Wrong answer. It was Ganguly who begged Greg to come over and take John Wrights position. The BCCI merely obliged. Its another thing that he got screwed by Greg properly but tell me something new about captain confused.

The same way Dhoni begged BCCI to remove Mohinder Amarnath, so that he could enjoy his stay as the skipper a while longer?

Because he didn't have to Keep wkts ... I can assure you that his royal laziness the Maharaja would not play a quarter of the cricket he did if he had to keep wkts and dive around like MSD.

If MSD wasn't the keeper he'd have been thrown out of the (test) squad after the 2011/12 tour down under. The fact that he never let any other competent keeper to grow as a competitor just shows how conniving he was. The plotting scheming act to throw Amarnath out was the icing on the cake.

And you are dead wrong about Matches won.

Link (Tests) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

ODIs :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

Maybe he's talking about away tests.

 

[Tusker]

Yet again you twist facts to suit your love for Dhoni, like most others. A true test of a captain comes when he's to see out a storm, Dhoni's failed in that test as much as Ganguly, except Ganguly faced greater odds & better players. In tests they aren't even close.

Ohh this is perfect topic to discuss ... On tough days MSD would roll up his sleeves take off the Wicket keeping gloves and start bowling. Whereas Ganguly would find ways to sit out from home test matches. You want to still continue on this topic ?

And what fact was twisted ? Everything I have said is public knowledge.

He was lucky just admit it, we went in favorites for the 2009 WT20 & his captaincy was found wanting.

Wah ji wah ... tukke sey poora world cup jeet liye ... I got nothing to respond to that ... and you are accusing me of being biased ?

Dhoni conveniently skipped the 2008 SL tor, he also missed the last test of 2011/12 tour down under & then finally jumped ship leaving Virat to fend for himself on the 2014/15 Aus tour. He also sends in youngsters early to face pacers in ODI & tests, when was the last time you saw him take on the best opposition fast bowlers in seamer friendly conditions be it tests or limited overs?

He was genuinely injured. Nobody in his right mind will question MSD's work ethics. He has his flaws but when it comes to professionalism you cant blame him.

He is a Keeper ... they bat at 7 .. at best 6. Thats his regular position. And you will not get a better example than the WC 2011 Final when he batted ahead of Yuvraj. Without MSD we would still be with 1 WC tally. Understand that and acknowledge that even if you cannot bring yourselves to respect his achievements.

 

[ab041937]

And how does that still prove your point about Ganguly manufacturing and gifting worldclass cricketers to Dhoni ?

Correction!! I never used the word "Worldclass cricketers". I said, Dhoni inherited a world beating team. India always had world class cricketers. But, none knew how to perform as a team.

Wrong answer. It was Ganguly who begged Greg to come over and take John Wrights position. The BCCI merely obliged. Its another thing that he got screwed by Greg properly but tell me something new about captain confused.

What does that even prove?? In the end it was BCCI that had to make a decision. Moreover, that is a moot point since nobody could've had a premonition How Guru Greg would turn up.

Because he didn't have to Keep wkts ... I can assure you that his royal laziness the Maharaja would not play a quarter of the cricket he did if he had to keep wkts and dive around like MSD.

Ganguly was a part time bowler who has 100 wkts & 2 5fers in ODIs. I can also assure you that if Dhoni had to bowl, he too would've turned up a pony & "not play quarter of the cricket" as you quote. This is a worthless comparison that has no basis. You cannot prove in any way that Dhoni's batting would've improved.

And you are dead wrong about Matches won.

Link (Tests) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

ODIs :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

Ooops, just realized that I wrote "more test matches". Allow me to make the correction... More "overseas" test matches. Even the dogs rule their street.. no big deal.

 

[R0H1T]

Ohh this is perfect topic to discuss ... On tough days MSD would roll up his sleeves take off the Wicket keeping gloves and start bowling. Whereas Ganguly would find ways to sit out from home test matches. You want to still continue on this topic ?

And what fact was twisted ? Everything I have said is public knowledge.

Because he failed in his primary duty as a skipper, or even keeper at times besides it's not like Ganguly couldn't bowl or that he didn't bowl when needed. You remember Dhoni dropping Sanga on his way to a ton in the first test, that we lost on SL 2010 tour, I think not!

Your opinion is that Ganguly skipped the harshest tests he faced as a captain, I said (& many others) that Dhoni did the same, only with a panache!

Wah ji wah ... tukke sey poora world cup jeet liye ... I got nothing to respond to that ... and you are accusing me of being biased ?

The 2007 WT20 was basically an eliminator, SA lost one game & were knocked out. Yeah lucky (Misbah croop anyone?) is what I'd call it, tukka is your word not mine.

He was genuinely injured. Nobody in his right mind will question MSD's work ethics. He has his flaws but when it comes to professionalism you cant blame him.

He is a Keeper ... they bat at 7 .. at best 6. Thats his regular position. And you will not get a better example than the WC 2011 Final when he batted ahead of Yuvraj. Without MSD we would still be with 1 WC tally. Understand that and acknowledge that even if you cannot bring yourselves to respect his achievements.

He took a voluntary rest on 2008 SL tour, was not injured AFAIK.

Even without MSD we would've won that WC final, however even with him in the team we nearly lost the equally crucial games in QF & SF against much better teams.

 

[Tusker]

Correction!! I never used the word "Worldclass cricketers". I said, Dhoni inherited a world beating team. India always had world class cricketers. But, none knew how to perform as a team.

again the facts dont agree with you (performing team) ... see my previous posts. Cant rehash the same things.

What does that even prove?? In the end it was BCCI that had to make a decision. Moreover, that is a moot point since nobody could've had a premonition How Guru Greg would turn up.

Because Greg was single handedly responsible for wreaking the team and setting it back a few years. Ganguly takes the blame for all that.

Ganguly was a part time bowler who has 100 wkts & 2 5fers in ODIs. I can also assure you that if Dhoni had to bowl, he too would've turned up a pony & "not play quarter of the cricket" as you quote. This is a worthless comparison that has no basis. You cannot prove in any way that Dhoni's batting would've improved.

keyword there is Part time ... might as well add trundler to the description. And yes it is common knowledge that Wkt keepers cannot be averaging as much as top order batsmen ( Rare exceptions like Gilly )

MSD Played 90 Tests and after 90 Tests Ganguly was a grand sum of 447 runs ahead of MSD ... let me know if you want to still discuss this ...

Ooops, just realized that I wrote "more test matches". Allow me to make the correction... More "overseas" test matches. Even the dogs rule their street.. no big deal.

See how much you end up with once you remove the mighty Zimbabwes and BD's

 

[jusarrived]

By the very same criteria, Dhoni didn't do anything that was achieved the "1st time", including 2011 World cup victory. Considering that last overseas test victory came in 1986 before Ganguly took over in 2000 itself means how much Indian cricket had slumped.

New Indian generation didn't just come out in vacuum. If the new generation can do wonders then by now, we should be regularly qualifying for football World cups & winning tons of medals in Olympics. All that the "New Generation" hero Capt Dhoni did was take us back to old generation ways of losing series in England/Australia 4-0.

Dhoni is supposed to be an extremely poor test captain according to some , so why compare him to Ganguly here ..the argument is if Dhoni is so poor , what makes Ganguly that great . A grand total of 2 test wins ( most people would argue against a a very weak Aus and Eng ) sides , inability to win a series even in places like WI , Zim and NZ .

if you actually look around , we have won a lot more medals in Olympics , Asian games and other sporting events in the 10-15 years than we did in the past .

 

[R0H1T]

Dhoni is supposed to be an extremely poor test captain according to some , so why compare him to Ganguly here ..the argument is if Dhoni is so poor , what makes Ganguly that great . A grand total of 2 test wins ( most people would argue against a a very weak Aus and Eng ) sides , inability to win a series even in places like WI , Zim and NZ .

He is, you don't have to beat around the bush to try & prove that, his record as a skipper is poor overseas & that as a batter even more pathetic!

The teams you're referring to were much better, both Zim & WI, as for NZ guess you missed the grassy knolls they prepared for us & of course Bond. Aside from that you're wrong as well, he did beat the weaker Zim side in 2005, they were still better than the squad Dhoni surrendered to, in a T20 last year!

if you actually look around , we have won a lot more medals in Olympics , Asian games and other sporting events in the 10-15 years than we did in the past .

Your point being - India is getting better at winning due to better players &/or coaches? That explains some of the obsession with Dhoni & rating him the GOAT ODI skipper, too many people miss the most obvious of things sadly!

 

[Tusker]

Because he failed in his primary duty as a skipper, or even keeper at times besides it's not like Ganguly couldn't bowl or that he didn't bowl when needed. You remember Dhoni dropping Sanga on his way to a ton in the first test, that we lost on SL 2010 tour, I think not!

Do you really want to go down the path of onfield performances ? Rest assured I will just bury you with so many incidents that you wont know what happened. For starters MSD is acknowledged to be one the best Keepers ever .. His stumping style is so vastly superior that people grudgingly acknowledge it.

Ganguly was actually dropped from the side for poor batting.

Your opinion is that Ganguly skipped the harshest tests he faced as a captain, I said (& many others) that Dhoni did the same, only with a panache!

The 2007 WT20 was basically an eliminator, SA lost one game & were knocked out. Yeah lucky (Misbah croop anyone?) is what I'd call it, tukka is your word not mine.

He took a voluntary rest on 2008 SL tour, was not injured AFAIK.

Even without MSD we would've won that WC final, however even with him in the team we nearly lost the equally crucial games in QF & SF against much better teams.

I don't recall MSD ever running away at last moment from a Test match at home. Man is a honest pro. You dont get to the T20 final by luck.

Will continue tomorrow.

 

[jusarrived]

He is, you don't have to beat around the bush to try & prove that, his record as a skipper is poor overseas & that as a batter even more pathetic!

The teams you're referring to were much better, both Zim & WI, as for NZ guess you missed the grassy knolls they prepared for us & of course Bond. Aside from that you're wrong as well, he did beat the weaker Zim side in 2005, they were still better than the squad Dhoni surrendered to, in a T20 last year!

Your point being - India is getting better at winning due to better players &/or coaches? That explains some of the obsession with Dhoni & rating him the GOAT ODI skipper, too many people miss the most obvious of things sadly!

So we have another dozen excuses why we lost to sides like Zim , WI and NZ ? And one of the excuses is that the pitch was grassy ?

 

[R0H1T]

Do you really want to go down the path of onfield performances ? Rest assured I will just bury you with so many incidents that you wont know what happened. For starters MSD is acknowledged to be one the best Keepers ever .. His stumping style is so vastly superior that people grudgingly acknowledge it.

Ganguly was actually dropped from the side for poor batting.

Your verbal barrage won't change facts, aside from the hilarious "you won't know what hit you" riposte I doubt you have anything to support your silly arguments! Give me one Dhoni away innings that compares to the Gabba ton in 2003, I doubt he's come close to such magnificence with the bat ever! Australia have probably won 5 Gabba tests each side of that performance by India, that was & is an Aus fortress but India was the first away side to draw a test in Gabba for a long long time.

Dhoni is definitely at good stumpings, but he's missed crucial catches many a times, him captaining the squad obviously exaggerates the effect that has on the team & his own batting performances. For what it's worth I do believe had he given up on captaincy in early 2012 he could've extended his test career & increased his overall output but he was too stubborn to play under anyone else!

I don't recall MSD ever running away at last moment from a Test match at home. Man is a honest pro. You dont get to the T20 final by luck.

Will continue tomorrow.

I do, it's just that he's more subtle at it.

 

[R0H1T]

So we have another dozen excuses why we lost to sides like Zim , WI and NZ ? And one of the excuses is that the pitch was grassy ?

Excuses, what were Dhoni's excuses for surrendering meekly in Eng/Aus/Eng & again Eng away? Not winning the second test against WI (chasing 100 odd) in WI back in 2011, what about the single we couldn't get chasing in Mumbai against WI the same year?

As for grassy pitches, did you actually watch that series or just happy trolling?

 

[ab041937]

again the facts dont agree with you (performing team) ... see my previous posts. Cant rehash the same things.

Can't go around chasing your posts.

The facts are that 2 almost same team toured Australia in 1999 & 2003. One returned with a 3-0 Loss while other drew 1-1.

Because Greg was single handedly responsible for wreaking the team and setting it back a few years. Ganguly takes the blame for all that.

So you agree that Greg tried to wreak the team. You've answered your own argument for 2007 WC debacle.

BTW, I am not sure if you have any insider information about Greg Chappel sharing his plans to wreck Team India with Ganguly but otherwise, your argument here sounds hollow. It is as hilarious as blaming Dhoni for Yuvraj geting cancer, having a slump in form post that & getting kicked out of the team.

keyword there is Part time ... might as well add trundler to the description. And yes it is common knowledge that Wkt keepers cannot be averaging as much as top order batsmen ( Rare exceptions like Gilly )

A part-time trundler who has 2 5fers & 100 ODI wickets. BTW, thanks for clearing up for few people that Dhoni is not as good as Gilly. Lot of people on this forum think otherwise.

MSD Played 90 Tests and after 90 Tests Ganguly was a grand sum of 447 runs ahead of MSD ... let me know if you want to still discuss this ...

Dhoni has 4800 runs whereas Ganguly has 7200 runs (50% more runs than Dhoni). I don't go with the argument of after or before 90 Tests. Nobody had stopped Dhoni from playing. He himself quit realizing his limitations. In the end He played 90 tests & scored 4800 runs @ avg of 38 whereas, Ganguly played 113 tests & scored 7200 runs @ avg of 42.

See how much you end up with once you remove the mighty Zimbabwes and BD's

Next try one more thing.. Take out 4-0 losses against England & Australia & turn MSD into a better captain than Ponting/Steve Waugh.

A victory is a victory. Fact is that We struggled to beat even BD & Zim before Dhoni.

 

[ab041937]

Dhoni is supposed to be an extremely poor test captain according to some , so why compare him to Ganguly here ..the argument is if Dhoni is so poor , what makes Ganguly that great . A grand total of 2 test wins ( most people would argue against a a very weak Aus and Eng ) sides , inability to win a series even in places like WI , Zim and NZ.

If you don't consider any comparison between Dhoni & Ganguly then the entire thread itself is moot. More than the inability of Ganguly to win test series, it was his ability to instill belief in his team mates & start winning test matches overseas that made him great. He has a much better overseas test record than Dhoni. BTW, the very weak Aussie side was the undisputed #1 ranked team in the world at that moment. Dhoni lost 4-0 against a far inferior Aussie team.

if you actually look around , we have won a lot more medals in Olympics , Asian games and other sporting events in the 10-15 years than we did in the past .

2 medals (No Gold) in a pop of 1.3 billions is lot many!! Enough said!

 

[Dulex9]

Ganguly brought in yougsters like Yuvraj, Kaif, Zaheer, Harbhajan, Sehwag, Dhoni and kept faith in them after the demise of Jadeja, Azharuddin, Mongia and suggested Dravid to put on the gloves to retain him in the side.

India reached so many finals only to lose them in his time. During Ganguly's captaincy, India drew a test series in England, Australia, won in Pakistan beat the invincible Australians, reached the 2003 WC Final as well as two Champions Trophy finals.

Ganguly brought mental toughness and aggression to the Indian side.

I will go for Ganguly.

 

[Tusker]

Your verbal barrage won't change facts, aside from the hilarious "you won't know what hit you" riposte I doubt you have anything to support your silly arguments! Give me one Dhoni away innings that compares to the Gabba ton in 2003, I doubt he's come close to such magnificence with the bat ever! Australia have probably won 5 Gabba tests each side of that performance by India, that was & is an Aus fortress but India was the first away side to draw a test in Gabba for a long long time.

Helped by Rain , injuries to key Aussie bowlers and a over the hill (and not 100% fit) Gillespie and Waugh.

For MSD there is the 148 vs Shoaib Akhtar and Asif in their Backyard , 2007 Series in Eng where he saved a Test match on Day 5 (I think he Avg more than Gangs in that Series IIRC) ... without that we would still be talking about 1986 when we last won in Eng prior to that. Then there is the 90 vs peak Steyn in SAF. Let me know if you need more or if you want to venture into ODI performances.

Dhoni is definitely at good stumpings, but he's missed crucial catches many a times, him captaining the squad obviously exaggerates the effect that has on the team & his own batting performances.

Dhoni drops catches very rarely ... but yeah I see how you expect him to hold on to every half chance while Mr Prince can chose to hide in the field and do ball escorting if it ever came close to him. Must be a joke if you are trying to compare Dhoni and Gangs in fielding . Has Ganguly ever run as hard in his entire life as a 35 year old Dhoni ? By all accounts MSD is just as fit as Kohli who is far more younger than him. You should really be thankful to MSD for bringing in that top fitness and professional culture into the team.

For what it's worth I do believe had he given up on captaincy in early 2012 he could've extended his test career & increased his overall output but he was too stubborn to play under anyone else!


I do, it's just that he's more subtle at it.

Proving wrong by the fact that he gave up captaincy in ODIs to play under Kohli ... imagine if this was Ganguly ... he would do everything in his power to stay on as a skipper even if he wasnt fit and performing. Huge respect to MSD in this regard. And he will just as easily walk away from it all if he thinks he is not good at Keeping anymore.

 

[Drreddymd]

Helped by Rain , injuries to key Aussie bowlers and a over the hill (and not 100% fit) Gillespie and Waugh.

For MSD there is the 148 vs Shoaib Akhtar and Asif in their Backyard , 2007 Series in Eng where he saved a Test match on Day 5 (I think he Avg more than Gangs in that Series IIRC) ... without that we would still be talking about 1986 when we last won in Eng prior to that. Then there is the 90 vs peak Steyn in SAF. Let me know if you need more or if you want to venture into ODI performances.




Dhoni drops catches very rarely ... but yeah I see how you expect him to hold on to every half chance while Mr Prince can chose to hide in the field and do ball escorting if it ever came close to him. Must be a joke if you are trying to compare Dhoni and Gangs in fielding . Has Ganguly ever run as hard in his entire life as a 35 year old Dhoni ? By all accounts MSD is just as fit as Kohli who is far more younger than him. You should really be thankful to MSD for bringing in that top fitness and professional culture into the team.



Proving wrong by the fact that he gave up captaincy in ODIs to play under Kohli ... imagine if this was Ganguly ... he would do everything in his power to stay on as a skipper even if he wasnt fit and performing. Huge respect to MSD in this regard. And he will just as easily walk away from it all if he thinks he is not good at Keeping anymore.

If he is so selfless why he didnt he resign after white washes after white washes and even used back door channels to stay both as a player and captain of test side

 

[Tusker]

Can't go around chasing your posts.

The facts are that 2 almost same team toured Australia in 1999 & 2003. One returned with a 3-0 Loss while other drew 1-1.

Almost same ? The 2003 Team did not have McGrath and Fleming that right there is the reason why Ganguly had much success.

So you agree that Greg tried to wreak the team. You've answered your own argument for 2007 WC debacle.

BTW, I am not sure if you have any insider information about Greg Chappel sharing his plans to wreck Team India with Ganguly but otherwise, your argument here sounds hollow. It is as hilarious as blaming Dhoni for Yuvraj geting cancer, having a slump in form post that & getting kicked out of the team.

lol so Ganguly still goes scot free despite his big role in inviting the pest into our cricket and to top it all he still gets the credit for the team that MSD inherited ? Nice logic.

A part-time trundler who has 2 5fers & 100 ODI wickets. BTW, thanks for clearing up for few people that Dhoni is not as good as Gilly. Lot of people on this forum think otherwise.

As a batsman. Not as Keeper.

Dhoni has 4800 runs whereas Ganguly has 7200 runs (50% more runs than Dhoni). I don't go with the argument of after or before 90 Tests. Nobody had stopped Dhoni from playing. He himself quit realizing his limitations. In the end He played 90 tests & scored 4800 runs @ avg of 38 whereas, Ganguly played 113 tests & scored 7200 runs @ avg of 42.

This is Gold ... so using your logic Tendulkar is a better ODI bowler than say a Joshi or Hirwani or Chandra or Bedi ? Similarly is Ganguly also a better ODI bowler than Praveen Kumar or BK then ?

Next try one more thing.. Take out 4-0 losses against England & Australia & turn MSD into a better captain than Ponting/Steve Waugh.

A victory is a victory. Fact is that We struggled to beat even BD & Zim before Dhoni.

I see that you don't like it when I decide to use your own selective cherry picking strategy ? So I guess a Victory is a Victory only if that happens in away matches even if it be against rank minnows ? Keep going

 

[R0H1T]

Helped by Rain , injuries to key Aussie bowlers and a over the hill (and not 100% fit) Gillespie and Waugh.

For MSD there is the 148 vs Shoaib Akhtar and Asif in their Backyard , 2007 Series in Eng where he saved a Test match on Day 5 (I think he Avg more than Gangs in that Series IIRC) ... without that we would still be talking about 1986 when we last won in Eng prior to that. Then there is the 90 vs peak Steyn in SAF. Let me know if you need more or if you want to venture into ODI performances.

That rain only spruced up the pitch more when we went into bat, also only Mcrgath was missing from the side whilst Warne was banned, get your facts straight when you're trying to impose your opinions. Over the hill Gillespie? He was the wrecker in chief in India, I'll give you Waugh though!

The MSD hundred came on a road, lest you forget, there was also an Irfan Pathan who did equally well if not better than him in that innings.

Nice, you remember the rain oh so glorious rain (& the poor umpiring on the last day) that saved us? Ganguly played more crucial knocks, despite what you're saying wrt avg. That 90 is the only one you can come up with really on a flattened pitch when he played second fiddle to SRT, he failed even at that getting out to Steyn after SA had taken the new ball.

Dhoni drops catches very rarely ... but yeah I see how you expect him to hold on to every half chance while Mr Prince can chose to hide in the field and do ball escorting if it ever came close to him. Must be a joke if you are trying to compare Dhoni and Gangs in fielding . Has Ganguly ever run as hard in his entire life as a 35 year old Dhoni ? By all accounts MSD is just as fit as Kohli who is far more younger than him. You should really be thankful to MSD for bringing in that top fitness and professional culture into the team.

There is no comparison because one is a keeper & the other an outfielder, Ganguly was a much safer catcher than Dhoni, just because you don't remember his drops doesn't mean other don't. I can dig other crucial drops/stumpings but then you'll bring some other excuse as to why Ganguly was slower & hence worse than Dhoni.

Proving wrong by the fact that he gave up captaincy in ODIs to play under Kohli ... imagine if this was Ganguly ... he would do everything in his power to stay on as a skipper even if he wasnt fit and performing. Huge respect to MSD in this regard. And he will just as easily walk away from it all if he thinks he is not good at Keeping anymore.

He's failed repeatedly over the last 4 years, since 2013 end. He knows this is the end, his time is up & is just trying to prolong his career. You won't see through the smokescreen because of the obvious bias/nostalgia you have for the GOAT ODI skipper ever, but I do hope the selectors call his bluff & boot him out in the next 6 months unless he shows much better form.

 

[Tusker]

That rain only spruced up the pitch more when we went into bat, also only Mcrgath was missing from the side whilst Warne was banned, get your facts straight when you're trying to impose your opinions. Over the hill Gillespie? He was the wrecker in chief in India, I'll give you Waugh though!

The MSD hundred came on a road, lest you forget, there was also an Irfan Pathan who did equally well if not better than him in that innings.

Nice, you remember the rain oh so glorious rain (& the poor umpiring on the last day) that saved us? Ganguly played more crucial knocks, despite what you're saying wrt avg. That 90 is the only one you can come up with really on a flattened pitch when he played second fiddle to SRT, he failed even at that getting out to Steyn after SA had taken the new ball.
There is no comparison because one is a keeper & the other an outfielder, Ganguly was a much safer catcher than Dhoni, just because you don't remember his drops doesn't mean other don't. I can dig other crucial drops/stumpings but then you'll bring some other excuse as to why Ganguly was slower & hence worse than Dhoni.
He's failed repeatedly over the last 4 years, since 2013 end. He knows this is the end, his time is up & is just trying to prolong his career. You won't see through the smokescreen because of the obvious bias/nostalgia you have for the GOAT ODI skipper ever, but I do hope the selectors call his bluff & boot him out in the next 6 months unless he shows much better form.

If he is prolonging his career wouldnt he still be the captain of both ODI and Test teams ? On the other hand Ganguly would try to get into the team hook or crook. Just see how utterly biased you are !!

Will respond to your other points later.

 

[R0H1T]

If he is prolonging his career wouldnt he still be the captain of both ODI and Test teams ? On the other hand Ganguly would try to get into the team hook or crook. Just see how utterly biased you are !!

Will respond to your other points later.

How will he do that, do tell? Daddy Srini isn't here to save his hide anymore, doubt he could redo an Amarnath this time around.

Ganguly, what'd he do to get back into the team by hook or crook? Right he was statistically India's best (test) batter in the time between 2006/07 & 2008 end, after he was dropped when Dravid was sworn in.

Don't bother responding, I can accept Dhoni as a very good captain, taking both formats into account, but making him some sort of a savant of Indian cricket is beyond preposterous & I'm not going down that road.

 

[Smbhayi]

also think he's an overrated captain. it always Srinath/Kaif/Yuvi/Zak who set field for him. also remember he left the field couple of times when opponents playing well (in test matches) and leave captaincy to VC.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ganguly as a batsman hurt his captaincy legacy badly. He was that much hated by fans at one point. His selfish batting positions despite lack of form, mishandling of Dravid, Persistence of Parthiv patel, handing over series advantages, yelling at srinath.. He did some good like he managed to lead India to few landmark wins. Dhoni on the other hand touched peaks and as well as vallies. One moment winner next moment first round exit. Dhoni had more challenging job than Ganguly given that Dhoni at one point was captain 4 teams (including CSK). As a keeper that job was demanding. He didn't care much for Test results. He just kept hiding behind "processes". Also he was extremely adamant in nature.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Dhoni is to Ganguly what Ponting is to Waugh. Both reaped the benefits of their predecessor who laid the foundation of a world class team.

 

[Sin Nombre]

People hating on Ganguly are probably kids.

Indian cricket was in the doldrums when he took over; a decade of getting beaten by Pakistan in the UAE/Canada and no performances to speak of in the major competitions; and not being competitive in away tests and not dominant at home. And Tehelka - Kapil was implicated and Azhar and Jadeja were found guilty and faith in cricketers was lost.


Ganguly is the reason why India has clearly been one of the 2 dominant teams over all formats in the 2000s. He changed the culture completely and the results followed -

2000 CT finals (Ganguly top scored in the tournament)
2001 Natwest winners
2002 CT winners
2003 WC finals

with some exceptional test match results which was kicked off by the famous 2001 series against the record breaking Australians, drawn series in Aus and SA and won series in NZ and England.

People have forgotten that Australia (goat test team) had 16 match winning runs twice and Ganguly's teams broke it on both occasions, once at Eden and once in Adelaide (both all time great matches).

 

[Sin Nombre]

Dhoni is to Ganguly what Ponting is to Waugh. Both reaped the benefits of their predecessor who laid the foundation of a world class team.

Good analogy though Ganguly is Taylor and Waugh combined in terms of when he took over and where he left.

 

[Tusker]

People hating on Ganguly are probably kids.

Since we are now into hurling insults in lieu of facts .... I would say those hating MSD are demented geriatrics . There so easy to do on a online forum ...

People have forgotten that Australia (goat test team) had 16 match winning runs twice and Ganguly's teams broke it on both occasions, once at Eden and once in Adelaide (both all time great matches).

He actually almost cost us a win by batting forever into Day5 ... if not for the crucial wkts by Tendulkar when Harbhajan was tiring ... that match had a draw written all over it. The Aussies came within 15 mins of holding out for a draw.This is why he is over rated.

 

[Tusker]

How will he do that, do tell? Daddy Srini isn't here to save his hide anymore, doubt he could redo an Amarnath this time around.

Last time i cheked Srini mama hasnt been in BCCI for last 2-3 yrs. But Iam pretty sure you will find some other conspiracy theory to support your theories.

Ganguly, what'd he do to get back into the team by hook or crook? Right he was statistically India's best (test) batter in the time between 2006/07 & 2008 end, after he was dropped when Dravid was sworn in.

Don't bother responding, I can accept Dhoni as a very good captain, taking both formats into account, but making him some sort of a savant of Indian cricket is beyond preposterous & I'm not going down that road.

Ganguly had his share of Sugar Daddy's in BCCI ... if you think he was all pure merit then Iam pretty sure I have a good chance of selling the Taj Mahal to you ... Good luck with your MSD hate.

 

[jnaveen1980]

People hating on Ganguly are probably kids.

Indian cricket was in the doldrums when he took over; a decade of getting beaten by Pakistan in the UAE/Canada and no performances to speak of in the major competitions; and not being competitive in away tests and not dominant at home. And Tehelka - Kapil was implicated and Azhar and Jadeja were found guilty and faith in cricketers was lost.


Ganguly is the reason why India has clearly been one of the 2 dominant teams over all formats in the 2000s. He changed the culture completely and the results followed -

2000 CT finals (Ganguly top scored in the tournament)
2001 Natwest winners
2002 CT winners
2003 WC finals

with some exceptional test match results which was kicked off by the famous 2001 series against the record breaking Australians, drawn series in Aus and SA and won series in NZ and England.

People have forgotten that Australia (goat test team) had 16 match winning runs twice and Ganguly's teams broke it on both occasions, once at Eden and once in Adelaide (both all time great matches).

His personal form was a disaster. Even against Australia during the epic 2001 series he was butt off jokes by fans. Yes he led the side to wins by being authoritative and in your face approach. But back end of his stint as captain left sour taste in mouth of fans. He was strategically very poor as well. Also his penchant for picking one day players for Tests hurt solid Test players like Dravid. He had a great team to work with. Srinath, Zaheer, Kumble, Bhajji, Tendulkar, Laxman, Dravid, Sehwag .Ganguly's contribution was pretty much zilch in that 2001 epic series. John Wright as a first foreign coach played a significant role. For most of his tenure as captain he would not have even been in the side but for his captaincy.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kohli will be better than both. He has more hunger to make India a top notch winning side than either of them in all formats. Hey may not succeed. But his attitude is superior from what i have seen.

 

[ab041937]

Almost same ? The 2003 Team did not have McGrath and Fleming that right there is the reason why Ganguly had much success.

So, Warne has been replaced with Fleming now? For the sake of argument even if I agree with you, there were still 9 other players. Cricket is played by a team of 11 not by 1/2 players. Only Subcontinent teams rely on individual brilliance to pull them through. Teams like Australia play as a unit where no matter how good a player you are, you are merely a cog that needs to do its part. This is why Cricket Australia didn't even blink an eye banning the greatest leg spinner ever at the onset of 2003 World Cup for disciplinary reasons.

BTW, 2012 Aussie Team was far inferior to 2003 Oz team (even w/o McGrath, Fleming, Warne). Dhoni still meekly surrendered. Anybody who played with Ganguly would tell you that results would've been far different if he was at helm.

lol so Ganguly still goes scot free despite his big role in inviting the pest into our cricket and to top it all he still gets the credit for the team that MSD inherited ? Nice logic.

So, if you recommend a friend of yours for a job & the friend turns out to be a undisciplined, incompetent employee then, guess HR should fire you aswell!!! Nice logic.

This is Gold ... so using your logic Tendulkar is a better ODI bowler than say a Joshi or Hirwani or Chandra or Bedi ? Similarly is Ganguly also a better ODI bowler than Praveen Kumar or BK then ?

What is your point? A sample size of 90/113 matches is not small enough to determine who is a better cricketer.

I see that you don't like it when I decide to use your own selective cherry picking strategy ? So I guess a Victory is a Victory only if that happens in away matches even if it be against rank minnows ? Keep going

Let me again take the liberty of quoting you -- "See how much you end up with once you remove the mighty Zimbabwes and BD's"

So if anybody is selectively cherry picking here is you when you continue to mock Ganguly's victories against Zim/BD all the while conveniently ignoring his test match victories against Aus, Eng, Pak, WI, SL and not to mention completely avoiding any mention of 4-0 loss by Dhoni to Australia, & England.

 

[ab041937]

He actually almost cost us a win by batting forever into Day5 ... if not for the crucial wkts by Tendulkar when Harbhajan was tiring ... that match had a draw written all over it. The Aussies came within 15 mins of holding out for a draw.This is why he is over rated.

One can be assured that if it was Dhoni, forget winning the match would've been lost on Day 4 evening itself. He just didn't have the fire in him to fight it out like Ganguly.

 

[Tusker]

Iam just going to pick some choice nuggets from your post to highlight the preposterous levels that Gangulians go to defend their hero.

So, if you recommend a friend of yours for a job & the friend turns out to be a undisciplined, incompetent employee then, guess HR should fire you aswell!!! Nice logic.

Not just incompetent but a very disruptive personality that costs the company dearly .... then yes I will be shown the door . But here you are actually trying to absolve him of all guilt and responsibility for that Error in judgement and still take credit for the team that survived the Greg episode and did well under Dhoni when it is very clear from simple facts that all good that was done by Ganguly had long since been undone and we had actually regressed by the time Dhoni took over.

What is your point? A sample size of 90/113 matches is not small enough to determine who is a better cricketer.

The point is that you cannot compare 2 batsmen based on career runs like what you tried to do. Especially when one is Wkt Keeper and cannot be expected to play as many matches as a middle order batsman that he is being compared to. Otherwise you will end up with idiotic things like Hammond better than Bradman or Chanderpaul better than Kevin Pietersen , Dhoni better than Damien Martyn or Gambhir or Samuels or ... (and I could keep going on and on ).

The fact that a full time keeper + Captain like MSD who captained in far more Tests than Ganguly is not that far off from Ganguly at that stage of his career is itself a damning stat.

Let me again take the liberty of quoting you -- "See how much you end up with once you remove the mighty Zimbabwes and BD's"

So if anybody is selectively cherry picking here is you when you continue to mock Ganguly's victories against Zim/BD

So let me get this straight here .... you want to selectively Credit Ganguly for some wins at Home but you don't want to count any of Dhoni's home wins because to quote you "Even the dogs rule their street.. no big deal."

But wait it gets better ... somehow per your "brilliant" logic all of that does not imply cherry picking at all but asking to ignore minnows does.

This is like saying "heads I win tails you lose ". Only a fanatic Gangulian can come up with such hilarious tidbits

all the while conveniently ignoring his test match victories against Aus, Eng, Pak, WI, SL and not to mention completely avoiding any mention of 4-0 loss by Dhoni to Australia, & England.

Can you point me to the post where I have done all of that ? I suggest you read my posts clearly before you start twisting my words to suit your agendas.