South Africa vs Australia in their prime. Pick a winner and mention reasons

[Chief Destroyer]

A pity all those South African batsmen generally failed against Warne and McGrath in real life.

And Pollock and Donald.

AB and Amla can't even beat a pretty average Australian side in South Africa and to be perfectly honest, while the last day defiance in Adelaide was great Siddle/Hilfenhaus and Lyon aren't McGrath and Warne.

And Australian conditions absolutely do favour leg spinners.

So the Australian batting lineup is better, the pace attacks are at best equal but Warne makes the Australian attack better given he is about 10 times the bowler any South African spinner is

If Pollock or Donald don't get you, Schultz or Steyn will. It's your Australian bias talking if you think the pace attacks are equal.

Like I said, AB and Amla transform that lineup, adding great depth and providing confidence to the rest. These are two more great, highly skilled batsmen that Warne and McGrath will have to deal with. Cricket isn't played on the stats sheet that just because McWarne were successful against the other lot, these are just two more pawns in the way.

Warne gives Australia's bowling attack the edge in Sydney and Melbourne but SA's attack takes it anywhere else. Warne might be successful at other venues SA's pace heavy attack will always have the edge.

 

[anikrc1]

I know which 2 Tests you are talking about - I have seen both Tests almost by ball. The 1st one was at Motera 2008, when Kumble can better tell why he opted to bat on a damp wicket with over night rain - Styen ran through India with 5 wickets, but Ntini bowled better - took Jafar, Ganguly & VVS in opening spell. That was a Test ST missed. By the time 2nd innings started, wicket dries up Styen too 3 wickets Ganguly, Bhaji & RP Singh, not before 80 overs were bowled.

2nd one was at Nagpur, when he ran through Indian tail with old ball reverse swing, after SAF had put 550+ in 1st 2 days on a crumbling wicket - an Indian line up of

Gambhir, Sehwag, Murali Vijay, ST, Badrinath, MS (playing as specialist bat), Saha, Bhaji, Zak, Mishra & Ishant.

I don't think those 2 Tests actually reflects "best" ever Indian lineup though.

Ambi I don't think ever played Test in India; Wasim played in his later stages - his Madras & Kolkata spells were perfect examples when wickets' tali doesn't tell the full story. Mac as one who would always struggle on dead life less wickets.

Styen averages 28 in AUS, 32 in UK & 33 in UAE (PAK) - has 142 wickets at ~17 against BD, ZIM, NZ & WI.

One of the greats of the game indeed, but his career peak was the 10 years when World Test cricket was at it's lowest in last 45 years at least that I can compare. Apart from IND, ENG & AUS - none of the teams would have made it to 5th day against their respective teams of 80s & 90s - OK, apart from Bangladesh. And, current the AUS team also would struggle to make Day 5 if they were to compete with their countrymen from 1999 till 2005 Ashes.

just quoting the averages don't give the full picture. steyn has played 6 and 5 tests in aus and england. he has given match winning performances in 2 tests in both of the countries. he also has won south africa a test in sl. the only place he has genuinely fail in is uae.but he has won a match in pak.now let's compare match winning performances of donald, akram , ambrose and mcgrath in those countries.i think steyn is going to come up ahead.

 

[Convict]

If Pollock or Donald don't get you, Schultz or Steyn will. It's your Australian bias talking if you think the pace attacks are equal.

Like I said, AB and Amla transform that lineup, adding great depth and providing confidence to the rest. These are two more great, highly skilled batsmen that Warne and McGrath will have to deal with. Cricket isn't played on the stats sheet that just because McWarne were successful against the other lot, these are just two more pawns in the way.

Warne gives Australia's bowling attack the edge in Sydney and Melbourne but SA's attack takes it anywhere else. Warne might be successful at other venues SA's pace heavy attack will always have the edge.

If Pollock or Steyn didn't get you? Like they never did.

Amazing how all these South Africans still can't beat Aus in Aus.

And let's face it. The old generation South Africans will do what ever they did when they came across Australia - melt under the pressure.

But I'm sure de Villiers and Amla beating up on Siddle and Lyon means they will handle the big boys.

 

[Convict]

just quoting the averages don't give the full picture. steyn has played 6 and 5 tests in aus and england. he has given match winning performances in 2 tests in both of the countries. he also has won south africa a test in sl. the only place he has genuinely fail in is uae.but he has won a match in pak.now let's compare match winning performances of donald, akram , ambrose and mcgrath in those countries.i think steyn is going to come up ahead.

Glenn McGrath
Continent        Tests  Wkts  BBI   BBM   Ave   ECON  SRATE  5i  10m
Africa               9    35  6/86  8/49  22.14 2.15  61.6    2    0
Americas*           10    50  6/47 10/78  20.70 2.59  47.8    6    1
Asia                19    72  5/66  7/59  23.02 2.51  54.8    1    0
Europe              14    87  8/38  9/82  19.34 2.91  39.8    8    0
Oceania             72   319  8/24 10/27  22.05 2.44  54.1   12    2

*Remember the Windies still had a decent batting lineup

I dunno Glenn McGrath's record is pretty good everywhere in the world.

Now he did only average 31 in Pakistan but I think his bowling average of 7 in the UAE makes up for that

 

[anikrc1]

against australia,england,pakistan srilanka and newzeland south africa has won 11 testsaway from home in which steyn have played. steyn has taken 79 wickets in those 11 tests.against those same countries sa has won 9 tests in which donald has played . he has taken 41 wickets in them.doing the same exercise for ambrose , wasim and mcgrath (replacing sa with their home country). wasim 106 from 19.ambrose 98 from 19,mcgrath 114 from 22.steyn averages more than 7 wickets per test in won matches in those countries. none of the others average more than 6 wickets.

 

[pacesensation]

If Pollock or Donald don't get you, Schultz or Steyn will. It's your Australian bias talking if you think the pace attacks are equal.

Like I said, AB and Amla transform that lineup, adding great depth and providing confidence to the rest. These are two more great, highly skilled batsmen that Warne and McGrath will have to deal with. Cricket isn't played on the stats sheet that just because McWarne were successful against the other lot, these are just two more pawns in the way.

Warne gives Australia's bowling attack the edge in Sydney and Melbourne but SA's attack takes it anywhere else. Warne might be successful at other venues SA's pace heavy attack will always have the edge.

[MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

actually all matches are played at fast bowling friendly wickets in australia. No match is being played at sydney.

As for your questions, whether these teams are the best post apartheid era. Then yes, i think they are the best. I forgot to add clarkes name instead of martyn. But dont you think, donald steyn and schultz will be a problem for clarke due to his weakness against short(or was it only later in his career)
plz feel free to suggest any changes


[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
dont you think schultz at peak is better than de villers, schultz after injury in 1998 ran through aussie line up?. He had pace and he could swing it both ways. Ntini was not really effective against aussies in their prime tbh, de villers might have been better than ntini but I think its schultz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ylTvWF4UJ4

 

[anikrc1]

Glenn McGrath
Continent        Tests  Wkts  BBI   BBM   Ave   ECON  SRATE  5i  10m
Africa               9    35  6/86  8/49  22.14 2.15  61.6    2    0
Americas*           10    50  6/47 10/78  20.70 2.59  47.8    6    1
Asia                19    72  5/66  7/59  23.02 2.51  54.8    1    0
Europe              14    87  8/38  9/82  19.34 2.91  39.8    8    0
Oceania             72   319  8/24 10/27  22.05 2.44  54.1   12    2

*Remember the Windies still had a decent batting lineup

I dunno Glenn McGrath's record is pretty good everywhere in the world.

Now he did only average 31 in Pakistan but I think his bowling average of 7 in the UAE makes up for that

i have already compared mcgrath and steyn;s record in won matches. i feel steyn;s record is slightly better. of course the difference is going to be minscule . they along with akram are the 3 best bowlers i have seen.donald i feel is a bit vehind the pack. i missed ambrose and waqar's peak. so won't comment on those 2. i also missed wasim's peak. but even after his peak he was the most magical bowler i have seen

 

[pacesensation]

Australia win win this contest, Africa team lacks a quality spinner while Australia has Shane Warne, which can be a huge huge difference.

all matches are played on fast bowling friendly wickets in australia

so there is a limitation for aussies

 

[pacesensation]

Isn't it the case with the dominant teams of any era?

west indies prime of 70s 80s, their dominance was more balanced

though some lillee got bad in late 70s etc. Pak was weak at start of 80s but their dominance in my opinion was more legit

 

[pacesensation]

pacessaion I just made two changes in your xi
iclude smith and gibbs and exclude cronje and duminy.

na bro, cannot exclude cronje
his leadership skills to me are unrivaled in sa. Remember his captaincy in that famous test when sa defended 120ish runs?

it was cronje who was captaining since wessels was injured

 

[pacesensation]

i have already compared mcgrath and steyn;s record in won matches. i feel steyn;s record is slightly better. of course the difference is going to be minscule . they along with akram are the 3 best bowlers i have seen.donald i feel is a bit vehind the pack. i missed ambrose and waqar's peak. so won't comment on those 2. i also missed wasim's peak. but even after his peak he was the most magical bowler i have seen

donald vs waughs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGBS-HwG55s


people are underestimating the white lightening (donald) on this thread

 

[Convict]

all matches are played on fast bowling friendly wickets in australia

so there is a limitation for aussies

Australian wickets are very leg spin friendly

 

[Convict]

Warne's best ground was actually the Gabba.
And Adelaide day 5 suits Warne.

And like any Victorian he loves the MCG

 

[anikrc1]

of course donald was a great bowler. and so he is likely to have spells like these. rating him behind steyn akram and mcgrath doesn't mean underestimating him

 

[Chief Destroyer]

If Pollock or Steyn didn't get you? Like they never did.

Amazing how all these South Africans still can't beat Aus in Aus.

And let's face it. The old generation South Africans will do what ever they did when they came across Australia - melt under the pressure.

But I'm sure de Villiers and Amla beating up on Siddle and Lyon means they will handle the big boys.

Post your best 11.

 

[Convict]

Post your best 11.

I already did earlier in the thread.

 

[Bilal7]

I expect a 1:1 draw. The batting on both sides is unbelievably strong.

 

[Convict]

I expect a 1:1 draw. The batting on both sides is unbelievably strong.

Except when it comes to head to head matches.
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

These are the test records of selected best squads for players since South Africa's readmission to international cricket.

Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM  105  7696  250  45.27  23  30     0  --.--  0    0  73   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM  103  8625  380  50.73  30  29     0  --.--  0    0 128   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM  168 13378  257  51.85  41  62     5  55.20  0    0 196   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM  124  8830  200  55.88  29  37    47  30.52  1    0  80   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   67  4406  165  46.37  13  23     2  84.00  0    0  36   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA 115  8643  329* 49.10  28  27    31  38.19  2    0 134   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   96  5570  204* 47.60  17  26     -  --.--  -    - 379  37
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   73  2065  123* 22.20   1  11   313  28.40 12    3  27   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS  145  3154   99  17.32   0  12   708  25.41 37   10 125   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF   71  1218  201* 18.73   1   2   259  26.13  8    0  27   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM 124   641   61   7.36   0   1   563  21.64 29    3  38   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   79  6235  195  51.52  19  29     7  43.71  0    0  85   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS   41  3852  215  60.18  14  16    16  52.31  0    0  43   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF   27   603   74  21.53   0   3   113  23.52  5    0  13   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS   44   359   43   9.69   0   0   208  29.02 12    0  16   0

and

South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS  117  9265  277  48.25  27  38     8 110.62  0    0 169   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS  101  7289  275  45.27  21  34     2  71.00  0    0  83   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   92  7358  311* 51.45  25  29     0  --.--  0    0  78   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM 166 13289  224  55.37  45  58   292  32.65  5    0 200   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM  106  8074  278* 50.46  21  39     2  52.00  0    0 197   5
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS   70  4554  275* 44.21  14  20     2  35.00  0    0  67   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM  147  5515  125  30.30   5  35     1   6.00  0    0 532  23
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM 108  3781  111  32.32   2  16   421  23.12 16    1  72   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   82  1143   76  14.11   0   2   406  22.54 25    5  22   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA  48   460   46  10.70   0   0   103  37.87  3    0  16   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   72   652   37  10.69   0   0   330  22.25 20    3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  90  6167  229  41.95  14  26     0  --.--  0    0  94   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   68  3714  135  36.41   6  23    43  29.95  0    0  33   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF  101   699   32*  9.84   0   0   390  28.83 18    4  25   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM  32   725   74  25.00   0   4   126  22.09  9    2   8   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    9     9    6   1.50   0   0    36  20.24  2    0   2   0

and now for the really key stats these are the head to head records. So how the Australians performed against South Africa and how the South Africans performed against Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM   11   768  126  42.66   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  11   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM   19  1486  138  43.70   6   5     -  --.--  -    -  22   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM   26  2132  143* 47.37   8  11     -  --.--  -    -  35   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM   16  1147  164  49.86   2   7    17  15.88  1    0   9   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   11   743  133  53.07   4   3     1  19.00  0    0   7   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA  14  1487  259* 67.59   5   3     4  42.00  0    0  18   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   12   754  204* 47.12   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  39   5
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   12   578  123* 38.53   1   2    64  25.64  3    2   9   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS   24   460   63  13.93   0   1   130  24.16  7    2  19   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF    7    14    6*  2.80   0   0    24  27.25  1    0   1   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM  17    78   18   6.50   0   0    57  27.33  2    0   6   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   17  1108  122  38.20   3   6     1 118.00  0    0  10   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS    3   269  100  67.25   1   1     2  40.00  0    0   2   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF    4    63   25  12.60   0   0    14  29.84  0    0   1   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS    4    63   29  15.75   0   0    18  28.44  0    0   2   0

And South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS   21  1328  122  32.57   3   5     1  77.00  0    0  36   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS   18  1134  153  34.36   2   5     1 112.00  0    0  12   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   14  1280  196  51.20   5   4     0  --.--  0    0   8   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM  29  2061  147  41.22   5  10    51  37.56  0    0  37   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM   20  1641  169  48.26   5   9     0  --.--  0    0  39   1
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS    7   153   43  12.75   0   0     -  --.--  -    -   5   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM   21   779   89  22.26   0   5     -  --.--  -    -  66   2
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM  13   517   67* 28.72   0   2    40  36.85  1    0   7   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   14   190   76  16.11   0   1    69  27.12  2    1   5   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA   6    92   39  10.22   0   0    24  32.58  1    0   2   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   14    98   21   7.54   0   0    53  31.08  2    0   3   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  15   947  104  31.57   1   6     -  --.--  -    -  13   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   12   788  122  39.40   1   6     5  49.40  0    0   2   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF   15   152   28* 10.13   0   0    58  34.74  2    1   2   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM   7   218   51* 31.14   0   1    25  30.24  2    0   1   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    1     2    2   2.00   0   0     6  15.17  0    0   1   0

So the Australians generally perform quite well against South Africa - including players like Clarke and Johnson who only faced the world number 1 South African side.

Meanwhile the South Africans generally failed against the Australians until Warne/McGrath/Gilchrist/Langer/Waugh/Martyn and Hayden were retired.

 

[idrizzy]

Australia hands down, they'll wallop any team. It's be stupid to say otherwise.

 

[Anfield]

With Amla and ABDV in the side along with smith, Kallis, Gibbs this South African side would bat much better than than player against McGrath and Warne in 90s and early 2000s. Also steyn, Donald and Pollock with form a very good attack to challenge strong Aussie batting line up. But still IMO that would not be enough to for proteas to win against the Aussies. They lack a good spinner and Aussies have warney. He shifts the favor in the favor of South African team. However it won't be an easy victory for Aussies like some posters here are saying. When was the last time Aussies won a series against South Africa in their own den?

 

[Convict]

With Amla and ABDV in the side along with smith, Kallis, Gibbs this South African side would bat much better than than player against McGrath and Warne in 90s and early 2000s. Also steyn, Donald and Pollock with form a very good attack to challenge strong Aussie batting line up. But still IMO that would not be enough to for proteas to win against the Aussies. They lack a good spinner and Aussies have warney. He shifts the favor in the favor of South African team. However it won't be an easy victory for Aussies like some posters here are saying. When was the last time Aussies won a series against South Africa in their own den?

2006.

But from the 2008 side and the 2012 side you're adding McGrath/Warne/Gilchrist/Waugh/Langer/Martyn and a peak (not completely past it) Hayden and Ponting.

Take the 2012 series.

Australia dominated the second test in Adelaide but du Plessis held on to force a draw on day 5. But with Pattinson breaking down the Australia attack for day 5 was Siddle, Hilfenhaus and Lyon. And this was back when Lyon was bog average.

Then Australia rested the entire first choice pace attack and brought in John Hastings, a very raw and not up to it Starc and Johnson who was still in the process of recreating himself.

Smith struggled against Johnson. Why would he do better when you add Warne and McGrath to that?

It would be like most of the Australia-South Africa test series during this time period - hard fought, good cricket with an Australian series win.

 

[Anfield]

2006.

But from the 2008 side and the 2012 side you're adding McGrath/Warne/Gilchrist/Waugh/Langer/Martyn and a peak (not completely past it) Hayden and Ponting.

Take the 2012 series.

Australia dominated the second test in Adelaide but du Plessis held on to force a draw on day 5. But with Pattinson breaking down the Australia attack for day 5 was Siddle, Hilfenhaus and Lyon. And this was back when Lyon was bog average.

Then Australia rested the entire first choice pace attack and brought in John Hastings, a very raw and not up to it Starc and Johnson who was still in the process of recreating himself.

Smith struggled against Johnson. Why would he do better when you add Warne and McGrath to that?

It would be like most of the Australia-South Africa test series during this time period - hard fought, good cricket with an Australian series win.

There have been matches in the past where South Africa lost from a winning position, so I won't look too much into that draw.

Johnson had done well against smith but smith had his shares too like that 100 when they chased down that record total in Perth.

South Africa got better after the induction of Amla and ABDV along with steyn.

I do agree like I mentioned before Australia would win but it would be a close series.

 

[street cricketer]

west indies prime of 70s 80s, their dominance was more balanced

though some lillee got bad in late 70s etc. Pak was weak at start of 80s but their dominance in my opinion was more legit

How was it more balanced?

Please explain a bit more..

 

[Mamoon]

I simply cannot believe that a lot of people are suggesting that South Africa would win/draw.

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

actually all matches are played at fast bowling friendly wickets in australia. No match is being played at sydney.

As for your questions, whether these teams are the best post apartheid era. Then yes, i think they are the best. I forgot to add clarkes name instead of martyn. But dont you think, donald steyn and schultz will be a problem for clarke due to his weakness against short(or was it only later in his career)
plz feel free to suggest any changes


[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
dont you think schultz at peak is better than de villers, schultz after injury in 1998 ran through aussie line up?. He had pace and he could swing it both ways. Ntini was not really effective against aussies in their prime tbh, de villers might have been better than ntini but I think its schultz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ylTvWF4UJ4

I think, Schultz was a fantastic prospect, but you have to remain fit as well. His career stats are a bit mis-leading for the sample size - 20 of his 37 wickets are against SRL, a team in early 90s was not that reputed for playing raw pace. At similar time, I believe WW once bundled them in opening spell. Both his 5 fers are against SRL & if you take out his 20 wickets in 3 Tests, he has 17 in rest 6. Besides, SAF's domestic cricket was lowest scoring in 80s & 90s - where he averages 4+ runs higher in FC cricket than Test, that's 24.5 in 60 matches, which actually indicates that apart from pace, he might not have anything much. Even domestic players, who are comfortable against sheer raw pace could manage him reasonably.

I really rate Fannie high, because he won 2 Tests against the best 2 sides that time AUS & PAK, particularly that one at SCG. Besides, what we had seen was an aged FdV - he was 29 at debut & played last Test at 35; still had 85 wickets in 18 Test with 5 5fers & 2 Ten wicket match. He must have been one of the greats of the game, had he started career say 8 years earlier.

 

[big_gamer007]

The difference in Pressure handling capabilities between the Aussies and South Africans is too much.. Talent wise and player to player wise it's close but Aussies know how to win big games that's the major advantage they have over SA.. I see only one winner in this..

 

[Hasan123]

Australia would win maybe close but Aussies would win can't understand why people think South Africa would draw or win the series

 

[MMHS]

The difference in Pressure handling capabilities between the Aussies and South Africans is too much.. Talent wise and player to player wise it's close but Aussies know how to win big games that's the major advantage they have over SA.. I see only one winner in this..

Then what you have left for? Cricket is a game 80% dominated by mind - it's not a power game, neither the skills are that difficult to master. But, you need to make just 1 mistake to get out - still batsmen bat for 11 hours - how?

 

[sajeebmcj]

Australia would win maybe close but Aussies would win can't understand why people think South Africa would draw or win the series

because the team we are talking about is consisted of players from 24 years, not aussi team of 2000s or south african yeam of early 90s or 2000s or 2010s. the team included all the plauers of 24 uears. and om paper sa team is no less than aussi.
you have to think the line up first. batimg line of smith, kirsten,amla, kallis,ab, gibbs is in no way inferior to hayden,lamger,ponting, s waugh,martyn,hussy. just boucher is inferrior to gilly. on thw bowling attack donald,polock,steyn,fannie de villiers is no way inferior to an ayyack of mcgra,warne,gillespi,johnson.
that's tje reason.

 

[sajeebmcj]

if you close analyse this player career you will surely find the reason. actually most poster underrating sa team. I am not saying who will win, but who are saying aus will thras sa like mmhs, street cricketer are qrong.
afterall ot is an assumption. so don't take it serious mate.

 

[sajeebmcj]

sorry. not qrong. iit's wrong

 

[sajeebmcj]

you can add cullinan and exclude boucher and make ab keeper. this line up will be formidable
smirh
kirsten
amla
kallis
gibbs
cullinan
ab(wk)
pollock
donald
fannie de villiers
steyn.

 

[Convict]

because the team we are talking about is consisted of players from 24 years, not aussi team of 2000s or south african yeam of early 90s or 2000s or 2010s. the team included all the plauers of 24 uears. and om paper sa team is no less than aussi.
you have to think the line up first. batimg line of smith, kirsten,amla, kallis,ab, gibbs is in no way inferior to hayden,lamger,ponting, s waugh,martyn,hussy. just boucher is inferrior to gilly. on thw bowling attack donald,polock,steyn,fannie de villiers is no way inferior to an ayyack of mcgra,warne,gillespi,johnson.
that's tje reason.

except when they all came up against Australia they failed.

 

[Chrish]

you can add cullinan .

Against warne ?

 

[sajeebmcj]

I know he was warne's bunny. but the dude was too good a batsman in the late 90s and early 2000s. he and kallis make the weak suffe midlle order strong
in late 90s and 00s kirsten, cullinan, kallis was performing consistently.

 

[Chrish]

Tbh don't think any saffer played warne well..

 

[sajeebmcj]

except when they all came up against Australia they failed.

ya. I know this. in late 90s and early 00s soutj afriva was the second best team. theu were performing very well everywhere. when sa visited australia in 2001-02, we all were expecting a great test series
but ais were too dominant. they won the series 3-0.
after the series south africa tjen started playing well.
in returning series of 2004-05, aus visited sa. this time aus won the series 2-1.
actually the sa being was no match for aussi. bowling line was weak and batting line was no so strong. though gibbs, kallis, cullinan, kirsten were there, but others were passengers. another big difference was gilly. boucher was nothing in xomparison with gilly as a wicket keeper batsman. donald already passed his prime. and aus had warne also.
I have already told aussi team of 90s or 00s was the best tean or second best team after windies of 80s in the cricket history.

 

[sajeebmcj]

Tbh don't think any saffer played warne well..

actually on this timeexcept kallis, no batsman of sa play spin well. sa failed to win a series in srilanka on that time. kallis performed poorly in srilanka and that was the reason of sa failure. kallis performed well against pak and india and south plaued well in those country. infact in 2000 soutj afeica whitewashed india in india.

 

[Bilal7]

Except when it comes to head to head matches.
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

These are the test records of selected best squads for players since South Africa's readmission to international cricket.

Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM  105  7696  250  45.27  23  30     0  --.--  0    0  73   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM  103  8625  380  50.73  30  29     0  --.--  0    0 128   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM  168 13378  257  51.85  41  62     5  55.20  0    0 196   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM  124  8830  200  55.88  29  37    47  30.52  1    0  80   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   67  4406  165  46.37  13  23     2  84.00  0    0  36   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA 115  8643  329* 49.10  28  27    31  38.19  2    0 134   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   96  5570  204* 47.60  17  26     -  --.--  -    - 379  37
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   73  2065  123* 22.20   1  11   313  28.40 12    3  27   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS  145  3154   99  17.32   0  12   708  25.41 37   10 125   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF   71  1218  201* 18.73   1   2   259  26.13  8    0  27   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM 124   641   61   7.36   0   1   563  21.64 29    3  38   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   79  6235  195  51.52  19  29     7  43.71  0    0  85   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS   41  3852  215  60.18  14  16    16  52.31  0    0  43   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF   27   603   74  21.53   0   3   113  23.52  5    0  13   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS   44   359   43   9.69   0   0   208  29.02 12    0  16   0

and

South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS  117  9265  277  48.25  27  38     8 110.62  0    0 169   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS  101  7289  275  45.27  21  34     2  71.00  0    0  83   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   92  7358  311* 51.45  25  29     0  --.--  0    0  78   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM 166 13289  224  55.37  45  58   292  32.65  5    0 200   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM  106  8074  278* 50.46  21  39     2  52.00  0    0 197   5
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS   70  4554  275* 44.21  14  20     2  35.00  0    0  67   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM  147  5515  125  30.30   5  35     1   6.00  0    0 532  23
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM 108  3781  111  32.32   2  16   421  23.12 16    1  72   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   82  1143   76  14.11   0   2   406  22.54 25    5  22   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA  48   460   46  10.70   0   0   103  37.87  3    0  16   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   72   652   37  10.69   0   0   330  22.25 20    3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  90  6167  229  41.95  14  26     0  --.--  0    0  94   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   68  3714  135  36.41   6  23    43  29.95  0    0  33   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF  101   699   32*  9.84   0   0   390  28.83 18    4  25   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM  32   725   74  25.00   0   4   126  22.09  9    2   8   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    9     9    6   1.50   0   0    36  20.24  2    0   2   0

and now for the really key stats these are the head to head records. So how the Australians performed against South Africa and how the South Africans performed against Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM   11   768  126  42.66   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  11   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM   19  1486  138  43.70   6   5     -  --.--  -    -  22   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM   26  2132  143* 47.37   8  11     -  --.--  -    -  35   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM   16  1147  164  49.86   2   7    17  15.88  1    0   9   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   11   743  133  53.07   4   3     1  19.00  0    0   7   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA  14  1487  259* 67.59   5   3     4  42.00  0    0  18   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   12   754  204* 47.12   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  39   5
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   12   578  123* 38.53   1   2    64  25.64  3    2   9   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS   24   460   63  13.93   0   1   130  24.16  7    2  19   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF    7    14    6*  2.80   0   0    24  27.25  1    0   1   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM  17    78   18   6.50   0   0    57  27.33  2    0   6   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   17  1108  122  38.20   3   6     1 118.00  0    0  10   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS    3   269  100  67.25   1   1     2  40.00  0    0   2   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF    4    63   25  12.60   0   0    14  29.84  0    0   1   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS    4    63   29  15.75   0   0    18  28.44  0    0   2   0

And South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS   21  1328  122  32.57   3   5     1  77.00  0    0  36   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS   18  1134  153  34.36   2   5     1 112.00  0    0  12   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   14  1280  196  51.20   5   4     0  --.--  0    0   8   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM  29  2061  147  41.22   5  10    51  37.56  0    0  37   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM   20  1641  169  48.26   5   9     0  --.--  0    0  39   1
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS    7   153   43  12.75   0   0     -  --.--  -    -   5   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM   21   779   89  22.26   0   5     -  --.--  -    -  66   2
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM  13   517   67* 28.72   0   2    40  36.85  1    0   7   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   14   190   76  16.11   0   1    69  27.12  2    1   5   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA   6    92   39  10.22   0   0    24  32.58  1    0   2   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   14    98   21   7.54   0   0    53  31.08  2    0   3   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  15   947  104  31.57   1   6     -  --.--  -    -  13   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   12   788  122  39.40   1   6     5  49.40  0    0   2   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF   15   152   28* 10.13   0   0    58  34.74  2    1   2   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM   7   218   51* 31.14   0   1    25  30.24  2    0   1   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    1     2    2   2.00   0   0     6  15.17  0    0   1   0

So the Australians generally perform quite well against South Africa - including players like Clarke and Johnson who only faced the world number 1 South African side.

Meanwhile the South Africans generally failed against the Australians until Warne/McGrath/Gilchrist/Langer/Waugh/Martyn and Hayden were retired.

Smith and Kallis being average against Australia is surprising. I take my statement back, Australia would win this 2-1.

 

[pacesensation]

you can add cullinan and exclude boucher and make ab keeper. this line up will be formidable
smirh
kirsten
amla
kallis
gibbs
cullinan
ab(wk)
pollock
donald
fannie de villiers
steyn.

dude
cullinan was a certified warne bunny

 

[pacesensation]

How was it more balanced?

Please explain a bit more..

we are heading towards an argument and i do not think it will be wise for both of us to argue on an offtopic topic

 

[pacesensation]

I think, Schultz was a fantastic prospect, but you have to remain fit as well. His career stats are a bit mis-leading for the sample size - 20 of his 37 wickets are against SRL, a team in early 90s was not that reputed for playing raw pace. At similar time, I believe WW once bundled them in opening spell. Both his 5 fers are against SRL & if you take out his 20 wickets in 3 Tests, he has 17 in rest 6. Besides, SAF's domestic cricket was lowest scoring in 80s & 90s - where he averages 4+ runs higher in FC cricket than Test, that's 24.5 in 60 matches, which actually indicates that apart from pace, he might not have anything much. Even domestic players, who are comfortable against sheer raw pace could manage him reasonably.

I really rate Fannie high, because he won 2 Tests against the best 2 sides that time AUS & PAK, particularly that one at SCG. Besides, what we had seen was an aged FdV - he was 29 at debut & played last Test at 35; still had 85 wickets in 18 Test with 5 5fers & 2 Ten wicket match. He must have been one of the greats of the game, had he started career say 8 years earlier.

Actually i was talking about schultz prime, that brief period for which he was fit and taking lots of wickets

his post injury return fetched him 8 for agasint australia

srl weak early to mid 90s team is a valid argument

i might have overestimated schultz than

 

[street cricketer]

we are heading towards an argument and i do not think it will be wise for both of us to argue on an offtopic topic

No problem brother, forums are for arguing

 

[Chrish]

I am surprised focus of attention has been warne and no one has bothered with gilchrist.. I mean Boucher was good but having 47 averaging wk would make a world of difference

 

[Square Drive]

You win SD

Tell me something new bro.

 

[pacesensation]

No problem brother, forums are for arguing

i would rather not argue

i can see both of us arguing uselessly only to end up getting nothing out of it



You can argue with the self-proclaimed-competitive-golfer about shoaib malik. He might have a picture of shoaib malik on his stethoscope

 

[Srtfan]

Right now
Aus xi
Hayden
Warner
Ponting
Smith
Steve Waugh
Clarke/ hussey
Gilly
Warne
Cummins
McGrath
Gillespie/ hazalwood/Johnson
Vs RSA xi
Smith
Kirsten
Amla
Kallis
Ab
Gibbs
Boucher
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Rabada
Aus 3-1

 

[street cricketer]

Except when it comes to head to head matches.
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

These are the test records of selected best squads for players since South Africa's readmission to international cricket.

Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM  105  7696  250  45.27  23  30     0  --.--  0    0  73   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM  103  8625  380  50.73  30  29     0  --.--  0    0 128   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM  168 13378  257  51.85  41  62     5  55.20  0    0 196   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM  124  8830  200  55.88  29  37    47  30.52  1    0  80   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   67  4406  165  46.37  13  23     2  84.00  0    0  36   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA 115  8643  329* 49.10  28  27    31  38.19  2    0 134   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   96  5570  204* 47.60  17  26     -  --.--  -    - 379  37
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   73  2065  123* 22.20   1  11   313  28.40 12    3  27   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS  145  3154   99  17.32   0  12   708  25.41 37   10 125   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF   71  1218  201* 18.73   1   2   259  26.13  8    0  27   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM 124   641   61   7.36   0   1   563  21.64 29    3  38   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   79  6235  195  51.52  19  29     7  43.71  0    0  85   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS   41  3852  215  60.18  14  16    16  52.31  0    0  43   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF   27   603   74  21.53   0   3   113  23.52  5    0  13   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS   44   359   43   9.69   0   0   208  29.02 12    0  16   0

and

South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS  117  9265  277  48.25  27  38     8 110.62  0    0 169   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS  101  7289  275  45.27  21  34     2  71.00  0    0  83   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   92  7358  311* 51.45  25  29     0  --.--  0    0  78   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM 166 13289  224  55.37  45  58   292  32.65  5    0 200   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM  106  8074  278* 50.46  21  39     2  52.00  0    0 197   5
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS   70  4554  275* 44.21  14  20     2  35.00  0    0  67   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM  147  5515  125  30.30   5  35     1   6.00  0    0 532  23
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM 108  3781  111  32.32   2  16   421  23.12 16    1  72   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   82  1143   76  14.11   0   2   406  22.54 25    5  22   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA  48   460   46  10.70   0   0   103  37.87  3    0  16   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   72   652   37  10.69   0   0   330  22.25 20    3  18   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  90  6167  229  41.95  14  26     0  --.--  0    0  94   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   68  3714  135  36.41   6  23    43  29.95  0    0  33   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF  101   699   32*  9.84   0   0   390  28.83 18    4  25   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM  32   725   74  25.00   0   4   126  22.09  9    2   8   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    9     9    6   1.50   0   0    36  20.24  2    0   2   0

and now for the really key stats these are the head to head records. So how the Australians performed against South Africa and how the South Africans performed against Australia

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   JL Langer        LHB RM   11   768  126  42.66   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  11   0
2.   ML Hayden        LHB RM   19  1486  138  43.70   6   5     -  --.--  -    -  22   0
3.   RT Ponting       RHB RM   26  2132  143* 47.37   8  11     -  --.--  -    -  35   0
4.   SR Waugh*        RHB RM   16  1147  164  49.86   2   7    17  15.88  1    0   9   0
5.   DR Martyn        RHB RM   11   743  133  53.07   4   3     1  19.00  0    0   7   0
6.   MJ Clarke        RHB SLA  14  1487  259* 67.59   5   3     4  42.00  0    0  18   0
7.   AC Gilchrist+    LHB OS   12   754  204* 47.12   2   2     -  --.--  -    -  39   5
8.   MG Johnson       LHB LF   12   578  123* 38.53   1   2    64  25.64  3    2   9   0
9.   SK Warne         RHB LS   24   460   63  13.93   0   1   130  24.16  7    2  19   0
10.  JN Gillespie     RHB RF    7    14    6*  2.80   0   0    24  27.25  1    0   1   0
11.  GD McGrath       RHB RFM  17    78   18   6.50   0   0    57  27.33  2    0   6   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  MEK Hussey       LHB RM   17  1108  122  38.20   3   6     1 118.00  0    0  10   0
13.  SPD Smith        RHB LS    3   269  100  67.25   1   1     2  40.00  0    0   2   0
14.  RJ Harris        RHB RF    4    63   25  12.60   0   0    14  29.84  0    0   1   0
15.  SCG MacGill      RHB LS    4    63   29  15.75   0   0    18  28.44  0    0   2   0

And South Africa

#.   Player           Bat Bwl Mat  Runs  HS   Ave   100  50  Wkts  Ave   5i  10m  Ct  St
1.   GC Smith*        LHB OS   21  1328  122  32.57   3   5     1  77.00  0    0  36   0
2.   G Kirsten        LHB OS   18  1134  153  34.36   2   5     1 112.00  0    0  12   0
3.   HM Amla          RHB OS   14  1280  196  51.20   5   4     0  --.--  0    0   8   0
4.   JH Kallis        RHB RFM  29  2061  147  41.22   5  10    51  37.56  0    0  37   0
5.   AB de Villiers   RHB RM   20  1641  169  48.26   5   9     0  --.--  0    0  39   1
6.   DJ Cullinan      RHB OS    7   153   43  12.75   0   0     -  --.--  -    -   5   0
7.   MV Boucher+      RHB RM   21   779   89  22.26   0   5     -  --.--  -    -  66   2
8.   SM Pollock       RHB RFM  13   517   67* 28.72   0   2    40  36.85  1    0   7   0
9.   DW Steyn         RHB RF   14   190   76  16.11   0   1    69  27.12  2    1   5   0
10.  PL Harris        RHB SLA   6    92   39  10.22   0   0    24  32.58  1    0   2   0
11.  AA Donald        RHB RF   14    98   21   7.54   0   0    53  31.08  2    0   3   0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.  HH Gibbs         RHB RFM  15   947  104  31.57   1   6     -  --.--  -    -  13   0
13.  WJ Cronje        RHB RM   12   788  122  39.40   1   6     5  49.40  0    0   2   0
14.  M Ntini          RHB RF   15   152   28* 10.13   0   0    58  34.74  2    1   2   0
15.  VD Philander     RHB RFM   7   218   51* 31.14   0   1    25  30.24  2    0   1   0
16.  BN Schultz       LHB LF    1     2    2   2.00   0   0     6  15.17  0    0   1   0

So the Australians generally perform quite well against South Africa - including players like Clarke and Johnson who only faced the world number 1 South African side.

Meanwhile the South Africans generally failed against the Australians until Warne/McGrath/Gilchrist/Langer/Waugh/Martyn and Hayden were retired.

People remember South Africa winning 2 or 3 consecutive series in Australia and think they have always played well against Aus.

Not many remember how the great Australian team ow*ed South Africa home and away. SA had a very poor record vs Australia home and away until the big guns were playing. The decline of the great Australian team coincided with the rise of the Saffers and South Africa started to have success against Australia in Australia.

 

[Ab Fan]

2008 South Africa tour to Australia remains South Africa's greatest test series win.

It was a well publicized test tour to Australia as Australia were in decline while South Africa under Smith had some talented youngsters who were rising from the ranks. However, Kallis was going through a major dip in his career at that time and also had poor returns in that series.

Smith won the player of the series and youngsters like Steyn, de Villiers and Duminy were hailed as match winners, something which Kallis was accused of not being one for years.

 

[subshakerz]

Johnson prime is basically Johnson of 2013/2014. That on top of McGrath and Warne is too much for SA to handle.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

I know which 2 Tests you are talking about - I have seen both Tests almost by ball. The 1st one was at Motera 2008, when Kumble can better tell why he opted to bat on a damp wicket with over night rain - Styen ran through India with 5 wickets, but Ntini bowled better - took Jafar, Ganguly & VVS in opening spell. That was a Test ST missed. By the time 2nd innings started, wicket dries up Styen too 3 wickets Ganguly, Bhaji & RP Singh, not before 80 overs were bowled.

2nd one was at Nagpur, when he ran through Indian tail with old ball reverse swing, after SAF had put 550+ in 1st 2 days on a crumbling wicket - an Indian line up of

Gambhir, Sehwag, Murali Vijay, ST, Badrinath, MS (playing as specialist bat), Saha, Bhaji, Zak, Mishra & Ishant.

I don't think those 2 Tests actually reflects "best" ever Indian lineup though.

Ambi I don't think ever played Test in India; Wasim played in his later stages - his Madras & Kolkata spells were perfect examples when wickets' tali doesn't tell the full story. Mac as one who would always struggle on dead life less wickets.

Styen averages 28 in AUS, 32 in UK & 33 in UAE (PAK) - has 142 wickets at ~17 against BD, ZIM, NZ & WI.

One of the greats of the game indeed, but his career peak was the 10 years when World Test cricket was at it's lowest in last 45 years at least that I can compare. Apart from IND, ENG & AUS - none of the teams would have made it to 5th day against their respective teams of 80s & 90s - OK, apart from Bangladesh. And, current the AUS team also would struggle to make Day 5 if they were to compete with their countrymen from 1999 till 2005 Ashes.

Mcgrath picked 31 wickets in 7 tests in two tours of India against arguably the greatest Indian batting lineup of all time. A bit unfair to say he struggled in life less pitches.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

To the topic
Prime Australia would beat every side in the history of the game. The only side that will hurt them is the prime India playing in India.