South African dominance against Pakistan

[JibranAnsari]

Pakistan have won only one series against south africa. South africa have beaten pakistan by an innings on three occasions ( 4th likely tomorrow). South africa have beaten pakistan twice in away series and drawn two series in UAE.

 

[Mamoon]

Not surprising considering the fact that our mediocre batting has always been brutally exposed by South African pacers.

Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Abbott, Rabada, Olivier etc. All of them have carved through our batsmen.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Forget test series. I think even test wins against SA had a lot to do with Akhtar. 98 Durban . In 03 as well. Also in the 06/07 series in SA. All 3 if those test wins were because SA were stunned by Akhtars ferocious pace. Even that losing streak against SA in ODIs was stopped it by an Akhtar spell in Sharjah in 2000.

 

[The Viper]

Expected tbh. South African pacers have always torn apart our batsman- even Inzi, Yousuf.

 

[Savak]

More proof that something in the South African pitches makes it difficult for sub continent batsmen

 

[Chokli]

Should have won that 2013 series tbh.

 

[Swashbuckler]

More proof that something in the South African pitches makes it difficult for sub continent batsmen

We find it toughest in England, much prefer SA. India plays better in Aus/SA while Pakistan handles Eng/NZ conditions better. Our batsmen are better against high pace and steep bounce while Pakistani batters are much better against swing. Against seam maybe it's a tie. Sri Lanka has competed well only in England, never won a single test in Australia.

 

[Ab Fan]

Over a course of 10 test series, 11 with this one, Pakistan have only managed to win one of them.

No team has dominated Pakistan like this since 1990s.

 

[Ab Fan]

Should have won that 2013 series tbh.

What exactly went wrong?

 

[Varun]

Should have won that 2013 series tbh.

Isn't that the series where you got bundled out for 49 one innings? How could you have won that?

 

[Swashbuckler]

4-13 in tests
25-47 in ODIS (1-3 in WC, 1-2 in CT)
5-6 in T20s (3-0 in WT20)

All post 1992. Clearly SA is Pakistan's bogey team except in WT20. Pakistan-Australia clashes have been more competitive across formats since I started following cricket and that includes about 12 years of Aussies fielding the GOAT contender team.

 

[soso_killer]

I'm not surprised tbh, it's often teams with discipline that tend to do well against us. England were mediocre since SA readmission until 2004/5 onwards. But they still had a relatively good record against us (prior) despite not having the same level of talent as Pakistan. I think it's the same for NZ as well, very disciplined. Maybe I'm confusing ODI's but I believe they also have a decent record against us, share a link if possible.

 

[soso_killer]

Should have won that 2013 series tbh.

which one?

 

[soso_killer]

We find it toughest in England, much prefer SA. India plays better in Aus/SA while Pakistan handles Eng/NZ conditions better. Our batsmen are better against high pace and steep bounce while Pakistani batters are much better against swing. Against seam maybe it's a tie. Sri Lanka has competed well only in England, never won a single test in Australia.

This is false no subcontinent team likes playing in SA. Haven't checked stats but I can bat they have the lowest average runs per wicket than in any other country, W/L ratio can't be great either.

 

[Buffet]

I'm not surprised tbh, it's often teams with discipline that tend to do well against us. England were mediocre since SA readmission until 2004/5 onwards. But they still had a relatively good record against us (prior) despite not having the same level of talent as Pakistan. I think it's the same for NZ as well, very disciplined. Maybe I'm confusing ODI's but I believe they also have a decent record against us, share a link if possible.

Against SA since 1992:

 

[Buffet]

This is false no subcontinent team likes playing in SA. Haven't checked stats but I can bat they have the lowest average runs per wicket than in any other country, W/L ratio can't be great either.

Avg of all countries in SA since 1992.

 

[CricFan2012]

Should have won that 2013 series tbh.

Winning that series on the backs of cheat Ajmal wouldn't have proven anything.

Look at the 2013 ODI series win vs them for example, any intelligent and sane fan knows the large hand Ajmal provided and accrediting the win becomes dubious.

 

[soso_killer]

That illustrates my point. They've had some class players. Akhtar, S. Mushtaq, Wasim, Waqar, Inzi, YK, Moyo, Asif, Kaneria probably all walk into NZ all time XI. Taking into account that some encounters between SA and Pakistan were in Asia (alien conditions to SA) they should have a much better record than NZ who have been weak for a while. Conditions in NZ aren't as drastically different/alien to SA batsmen as compared to the subcontinent.

 

[soso_killer]

Avg of all countries in SA since 1992.

View attachment 86988

Again I'm proven right, I bet Asian sides have average above 30 per wicket in Australia, NZ and Eng. Don't see how averaging below 30 equates to playing well in SA.

 

[Buffet]

Again I'm proven right, I bet Asian sides have average above 30 per wicket in Australia, NZ and Eng. Don't see how averaging below 30 equates to playing well in SA.

All Asian teams average 28 or below in Eng.

SL/Pakistan average 27 or below in Aus.

 

[soso_killer]

All Asian teams average 28 or below in Eng.

SL/Pakistan average 27 or below in Aus.

since SA's readmission?

 

[Buffet]

since SA's readmission?

Let me check that. I forgot to add that filter.

 

[Buffet]

since SA's readmission?

In Aus:

Pakistan avg 25
SL avg 26

----

SL in NZ averages 26

I am listing only sub 30 here. Rest are 30+

 

[Swashbuckler]

This is false no subcontinent team likes playing in SA. Haven't checked stats but I can bat they have the lowest average runs per wicket than in any other country, W/L ratio can't be great either.

Average runs per wicket can't be the sole criterion. It is how our batters measure up compared to host batters on the same pitch. For India the bogey is England, especially in the last 10 years. Moreover SA always had a good pace battery unlike England. Yet our batsmen struggled a lot in England, Indians are very weak against swing which isn't tested to that extent in SA. What I said in that post is valid.

 

[Ab Fan]

Avg of all countries in SA since 1992.

View attachment 86988

What is the W/ L of all countries in SA?

 

[Buffet]

What is the W/ L of all countries in SA?

It's on the left side of avg on the same screenshot.

 

[Ab Fan]

It's on the left side of avg on the same screenshot.

Oh, yes! Thanks.

Aus: - 1.5
Eng: - 1.0
Ind: - 0.3
Pak: - 0.2
NZ/SL: - 0.09
WI: - 0.086

 

[amax]

Forget test series. I think even test wins against SA had a lot to do with Akhtar. 98 Durban . In 03 as well. Also in the 06/07 series in SA. All 3 if those test wins were because SA were stunned by Akhtars ferocious pace. Even that losing streak against SA in ODIs was stopped it by an Akhtar spell in Sharjah in 2000.

Yeah. if I remember correctly even earlier ODI wins were because of individual brilliance of Wasim and Waqar but that has changed recently as Pakistan is performing well in critical tournament matches against SA. In short South Africa has really dominated Pakistan.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Yeah. if I remember correctly even earlier ODI wins were because of individual brilliance of Wasim and Waqar but that has changed recently as Pakistan is performing well in critical tournament matches against SA. In short South Africa has really dominated Pakistan.

SA ODI team are beatable these days. Indian won 5-1 in SA recently. That would've unthinkable a few years ago. They are no longer the force they were in bilateral ODI's like in the 90's and early noughties when only Australia had a chance.

 

[AMSS]

These stats posted by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] should be read with a bagful of salt. Why? No other team, not even the maligned subcontinental ones, doctor their wicket so blatantly as saffers. Watch the wickets prepared by SA in this season and the last, when India toured and compare it with the flatties they served up when England toured, or australia. And watch out for the tracks in next saffer summer when england tour them. They are scheming little doctorers, these saffers.

 

[BreadPakoda]

These stats posted by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] should be read with a bagful of salt. Why? No other team, not even the maligned subcontinental ones, doctor their wicket so blatantly as saffers. Watch the wickets prepared by SA in this season and the last, when India toured and compare it with the flatties they served up when England toured, or australia. And watch out for the tracks in next saffer summer when england tour them. They are scheming little doctorers, these saffers.

Not to mention, they awarded Faf with captaincy, while Smith was given a ban by the Ozzies.

 

[soso_killer]

Average runs per wicket can't be the sole criterion. It is how our batters measure up compared to host batters on the same pitch. For India the bogey is England, especially in the last 10 years. Moreover SA always had a good pace battery unlike England. Yet our batsmen struggled a lot in England, Indians are very weak against swing which isn't tested to that extent in SA. What I said in that post is valid.

What is India W/L ratio in England since SA readmission? If I'm not mistaken they average 30 runs per wicket there too meaning they are coping better in those conditions. Winning is something different of course. India have never toured here and look like they were enjoying themselves.

 

[Swashbuckler]

What is India W/L ratio in England since SA readmission? If I'm not mistaken they average 30 runs per wicket there too meaning they are coping better in those conditions. Winning is something different of course. India have never toured here and look like they were enjoying themselves.

You have to take into account the fact that SA since 1992 has always been a top 2/3 team. England bowling was awful in the 90s and most of 2000s, only towards the end of 2000s did their bowling develop to become world class.

India won a test series in England in 2007 and I remember the bowling attack they fielded, nothing much to boast about. However I don't remember us facing a weak SA bowling unit.

Our failures in SA are more because of SA's bowling/catching quality while in England it is because of conditions.

 

[jagatk]

These stats posted by [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] should be read with a bagful of salt. Why? No other team, not even the maligned subcontinental ones, doctor their wicket so blatantly as saffers. Watch the wickets prepared by SA in this season and the last, when India toured and compare it with the flatties they served up when England toured, or australia. And watch out for the tracks in next saffer summer when england tour them. They are scheming little doctorers, these saffers.

They just don't like it when someone does it to them.

 

[Varun]

What is India W/L ratio in England since SA readmission? If I'm not mistaken they average 30 runs per wicket there too meaning they are coping better in those conditions. Winning is something different of course. India have never toured here and look like they were enjoying themselves.

Except in 2010/11.

 

[big_gamer007]

SA has historically always been a top notch team. If Australia didn't have the best team in cricket history for 8-10 years people would remember SA team better than what they remember today.

 

[soso_killer]

It's on the left side of avg on the same screenshot.

They find it tough here which isn't surprising, even Aussies struggled. Difference was always their middle and lower order. What does Australia average at home against SA? Probably 36+

 

[Varun]

SA has historically always been a top notch team. If Australia didn't have the best team in cricket history for 8-10 years people would remember SA team better than what they remember today.

South Africa are weird in the sense that they nearly always get slaughtered by Australia and England at home. Even New Zealand have won a handful of tests there.

The pitch doctoring is kind of needs must when the Asian teams tour as they can't afford to slack up in those series as well.

 

[Swashbuckler]

South Africa are weird in the sense that they nearly always get slaughtered by Australia and England at home. Even New Zealand have won a handful of tests there.

The pitch doctoring is kind of needs must when the Asian teams tour as they can't afford to slack up in those series as well.

NZ have a pathetic record against SA, both home and away.

 

[soso_killer]

SA did miss their best team ever I guess. Would have dominated the 70's and battled it out with the Windies in the 80's and smashed everyone else.

 

[BreadPakoda]

What is India W/L ratio in England since SA readmission? If I'm not mistaken they average 30 runs per wicket there too meaning they are coping better in those conditions. Winning is something different of course. India have never toured here and look like they were enjoying themselves.

So you will tell us who we struggle against? Since the beginning of this decade, India drew a series in 2010 and has a W/L ratio of 0.5 in SA despite epic levels of pitch doctoring by SA. SA has a W/L ratio of 0.25 in India. lol

We have clearly dominated you.

 

[ikky47]

South Africa are weird in the sense that they nearly always get slaughtered by Australia and England at home. Even New Zealand have won a handful of tests there.

The pitch doctoring is kind of needs must when the Asian teams tour as they can't afford to slack up in those series as well.

Then they complain when they get the same treatment dished to them in Asia. SA are due to tour India later on in the year I think, won't be surprised if India dish out the same treatment to them.

 

[BreadPakoda]

SA did miss their best team ever I guess. Would have dominated the 70's and battled it out with the Windies in the 80's and smashed everyone else.

Sadly, could've, would've doesn't count. 30 years of cricket and you're yet to play a WC final.

 

[big_gamer007]

South Africa are weird in the sense that they nearly always get slaughtered by Australia and England at home. Even New Zealand have won a handful of tests there.

The pitch doctoring is kind of needs must when the Asian teams tour as they can't afford to slack up in those series as well.

I guess it's conditions, it's easier for those teams to play in SA than in Indian conditions.

Having said that Australians always had a beastly team so no surprises.
How many series have England won in SA and in what years? Might have to dig in detail on how they won maybe because of some brilliance performances by a few players who raised their games..

 

[Chief Destroyer]

So what? Are you gonna cry about it?

 

[Rana]

South Africa generally are a monster side throughout the 4 year calendar. They are hot and cold during an ICC tournament but the side mentally has the upper hand to most countries. If there was no Quota system they would have 11 solid players and dominate all over the world

 

[Swashbuckler]

So you will tell us who we struggle against? Since the beginning of this decade, India drew a series in 2010 and has a W/L ratio of 0.5 in SA despite epic levels of pitch doctoring by SA. SA has a W/L ratio of 0.25 in India. lol

We have clearly dominated you.

I wouldn't say that. India-SA test rivalry has been very enjoyable, closely fought and produced excellent quality of cricket. It isn't hyped like other rivalries but I have enjoyed it, hope for a regular 4 test series fixture in our schedule like Border-Gavaskar Trophy.

 

[BreadPakoda]

South Africa generally are a monster side throughout the 4 year calendar. They are hot and cold during an ICC tournament but the side mentally has the upper hand to most countries. If there was no Quota system they would have 11 solid players and dominate all over the world

India has had a 1+ W/L ratio in all formats against SA since 2010.

 

[ikky47]

I guess it's conditions, it's easier for those teams to play in SA than in Indian conditions.

Having said that Australians always had a beastly team so no surprises.
How many series have England won in SA and in what years? Might have to dig in detail on how they won maybe because of some brilliance performances by a few players who raised their games..

England have won only 2 series in Australia in the last 30 years. In 2010/2011 & 1986/1987

 

[soso_killer]

Slaughtered by England at home? England have won in SA twice, both times when SA was in transition. Beat a nothing side in 2015 no Steyn, Philander and Morkel. Rabada missed two Test IIRC and was a newbie. The last time England faced a full strength side they escaped by the skin of their teeth (Steyn was injured, Philander hasn't emerged). They should have toured SA for a return series in 2012. Only Australia have come to SA and won, I suspect it has to do with having solid #4/5 Martyn, Smith, Clarke, Waugh brothers. Gilchrist had one good tour against a nothing attack, batted like a tail every other time.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Not to forget SA have won like 1 test in Asia in the last 5 years or so. That includes a series in Bangladesh. And their batting line up is in decline with ABD having retired and Amla on his last legs.

 

[soso_killer]

2004 and 2015, they never beat anyone at full strength

 

[big_gamer007]

England have won only 2 series in Australia in the last 30 years. In 2010/2011 & 1986/1987

Was a typo I meant how many series England won in South Africa since their readmission in cricket?

 

[ikky47]

Not to forget SA have won like 1 test in Asia in the last 5 years or so. That includes a series in Bangladesh. And their batting line up is in decline with ABD having retired and Amla on his last legs.

Since Jan 2014 SA have only won 1 test match in Asia losing 5 and drawing 4. This is an awesome W/L ratio of 0.200.

 

[ikky47]

Was a typo I meant how many series England won in South Africa since their readmission in cricket?

2 series one in 2005 and the most recent one in 2016. So 2 series wins in SA since readmission.

 

[big_gamer007]

2 series one in 2005 and the most recent one in 2016. So 2 series wins in SA since readmission.

Wouldn't call that a domination then.. SA have been historically a very good team.. I guess Pakistan have issues in South African conditions their batting has not been upto the mark so they haven't been able to win many tests..

 

[soso_killer]

What does that have to do with Test cricket?
In any case my point is that South Africa is the only team to be competitive outside their great side. Windies and Australia have struggled in general. It's not speculative to suggest SA would have been a top two side minimum in the 70's and 80's. That was our best ever side. It took great Australian side to win in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and England. We've won in those countries with a good side, that's the consistency and competitiveness I'm talking about.

 

[Chokli]

Winning that series on the backs of cheat Ajmal wouldn't have proven anything.

Look at the 2013 ODI series win vs them for example, any intelligent and sane fan knows the large hand Ajmal provided and accrediting the win becomes dubious.

So then going by your logic, all of Sri Lankas wins should be void because Murali played a huge hand?

 

[Chokli]

Isn't that the series where you got bundled out for 49 one innings? How could you have won that?

The series in UAE.

 

[Chokli]

which one?

Test series in UAE 1-1 draw.

 

[CricFan2012]

So then going by your logic, all of Sri Lankas wins should be void because Murali played a huge hand?

The ones where Murali played a large hand becomes dubious, I never said in my statement that Ajmal affected matches become void, they just become stats that we unfortunately cannot erase.

I am a strong believer of playing fairly and the legacy that chuckers have left is very disheartening as a cricket fan.

 

[Chokli]

The ones where Murali played a large hand becomes dubious, I never said in my statement that Ajmal affected matches become void, they just become stats that we unfortunately cannot erase.

I am a strong believer of playing fairly and the legacy that chuckers have left is very disheartening as a cricket fan.

Well choose to ignore it because he was well within the rules at that time.

 

[Buffet]

They find it tough here which isn't surprising, even Aussies struggled. Difference was always their middle and lower order. What does Australia average at home against SA? Probably 36+

37+ in Aus against SA.

 

[Dark Magician]

South Africa generally are a monster side throughout the 4 year calendar. They are hot and cold during an ICC tournament but the side mentally has the upper hand to most countries. If there was no Quota system they would have 11 solid players and dominate all over the world

Who's the qouta player in that side? Rabada? Amla? Bavuma? De Kock? Ngidi? Who? You people love talking that nonsense without evidence to back it up! If you look at those players records at domestic level they deserve to be there, all of them.