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Stuart Broad takes advice from Sir Richard Hadlee

Robert

Robert

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In an interesting development, Broad has received a long and detailed email from the great Hadlee about bowling and prolonging his career.

Like Hadlee, Broad has worked to shorten his run-up, perhaps sacrificing a bit of pace for more control.

It will be interesting to see how he goes from now on.
 
Robert said:
In an interesting development, Broad has received a long and detailed email from the great Hadlee about bowling and prolonging his career.

Like Hadlee, Broad has worked to shorten his run-up, perhaps sacrificing a bit of pace for more control.

It will be interesting to see how he goes from now on.
Click to expand...

Reducing pace Just wont work in this era.
 
Broad in many ways has the attitude of a desi bowler- he bowls well for a match and then does nothing for the next 5 or 6.
 
He has lost pace for sure, even before cutting his run. If that is what he is doing. Cumulative little niggles, I guess.
 
Broad would have been irreplaceable for England if he was much more consistent with the bat. In batting he is a big underachiever
 
Savak said:
Broad would have been irreplaceable for England if he was much more consistent with the bat. In batting he is a big underachiever
Click to expand...

He developed a phobia after being his in the face. Prior to that he scored a century and ten fifties in tests.

The parallel with Hadlee is rather interesting in that Hadlee suffered mental breakdown and could barely get out of bed, but saw a sports psychologist and improved for being a moderate fast bowler into a world-beater. He planned every match in a series or a County season, setting personal targets for each.

I wonder if Broad’s batting could benefit in the same way.
 
Broad looks fit. He is tall, sleek and has an easy and repeatable bowling action. There is no reason why he cant regain his bowling confidence. Needs to work very hard.
 
Tusker said:
Reducing pace Just wont work in this era.
Click to expand...

Ask M Abbas an innocuous looking 125kph trundler ripe for you to knock about if he played in previous eras but he's only got the best ever average for the last 100 years as of now.
 
Cric1234 said:
Ask M Abbas an innocuous looking 125kph trundler ripe for you to knock about if he played in previous eras but he's only got the best ever average for the last 100 years as of now.
Click to expand...

HE bowls around 130Ks ... Hadlee never bowled at those speeds.
 
And then [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] ran away from the discussion ... but then you had the cheek to say this on a old thread that I was reading.

Robert said:
I'm proud to be an elitist pretentious snob, in that case. The reason is that young people these days have the concentration spans of goldfish.
Click to expand...

Robert said:
The previous generation always knows more, because it has been around longer.
Click to expand...


Let me tell you this - The only thing you know is stories - mostly second hand - and very little of what you say can withstand a thorough fact check. This is the reason why you and the rest of the "Elite Old Era Brigade" invariably runs away when anyone starts to question your old > new claims. This is also the reason why you will never touch any topic where the facts are clearly visible to anyone - such as footage showing your beloved old ERA players playing ordinary cricket. You will just never ever touch the finer detailed topics such as batting techniques based on footage.

Try and learn how to indulge in a disciplined serious debate before you claim any superiority over anybody - especially when you want to accuse someone of concentration spans of goldfish. I can similarly make scathing comments about your age but I will refrain. I mean does the oldest guy in your country get to be the President/PrimeMinister or what ?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
 
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gazza619 said:
Broad looks fit. He is tall, sleek and has an easy and repeatable bowling action. There is no reason why he cant regain his bowling confidence. Needs to work very hard.
Click to expand...

Sure, he is only 32. He could still be the attack leader after Anderson finishes if he really wants to. It becomes about desire after a while though. Younger bowlers are emerging to take his place.
 
Stewie said:
Oh really? So what was Hadlee’s pace in your opinion?
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He was clocked with a max speed of 129K in the fast bowling competition back in 1978. Keep in mind that was not match conditions and the main aim was to bowl fast with no batsman facing him ( total of 8 balls with a lot of time gap between each delivery as every bowler took turns) . Then by his own admission he cut down his speed somewhere in the early 80s. Next if you observe his bowling footage he just ambles in bowls medium pace. I reckon not more than 120Ks tops that too if you are generous.

Now don't get all bent out of shape as this does not fit the image you have of Hadlee based on tall stories told by supposedly the "all knowing" oldies such as Robert.
 
Tusker said:
Reducing pace Just wont work in this era.
Click to expand...

Anderson, Philander, Abbas point otherwise. Asif and McGrath a decade or so ago also suggest that pace is overrated if you can land the ball on a spot on the pitch consistently. I have seen your follow-up reply from that old speed competition, but, I'm afraid I trust my eyes and the ball is certainly flying off the pitch in some of these videos to suggest Hadlee was hitting 83-84 mph.
 
It's curious that in his ninefer against Australia he looked to be at around 75 mph, which shouldn't have worked in Australia.

There were two Hadlees - the tearaway quick of the 1970s who was trying to be a young Dennis Lillee, copying his action, and the most advanced version of the 1980s with the shorter run-up who was more of an FM with well-disguised quicker balls every so often. He would bowl four leg-cutters per over as stock balls, and something else for the other two, such as a fast ball, or an inswinger, or a yorker.

I wonder has any of this rubbed off on Broad.
 
Bewal Express said:
Friend i saw him bowl- Hadlee wasnt slow, def early 80s and at times mid 80s.
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So the camera is lying then ? Human beings are simply not capable of judging speeds. Period ! You can try to pretend otherwise as much as you can but science tells us that the human eye has its limitations.
 
Tusker said:
So the camera is lying then ? Human beings are simply not capable of judging speeds. Period ! You can try to pretend otherwise as much as you can but science tells us that the human eye has its limitations.
Click to expand...

True. Don’t know how can you determine speed from the naked eye. You may have an idea but not an exact number.
 
Tusker said:
btw where did you see him bowl?
Click to expand...

First time i saw him bowl was in the 83 World cup against Pak at Edgebaston. Had us 3 for nothing and bowled beautifully. Then i saw him many times after, he bowled to the conditions and was up there with Marshall and IK as one of the bowlers of the decade in the 90s.
 
Bewal Express said:
First time i saw him bowl was in the 83 World cup against Pak at Edgebaston. Had us 3 for nothing and bowled beautifully. Then i saw him many times after, he bowled to the conditions and was up there with Marshall and IK as one of the bowlers of the decade in the 90s.
Click to expand...

At the ground or on TV ?
 
Last Monetarist said:
Anderson, Philander, Abbas point otherwise. Asif and McGrath a decade or so ago also suggest that pace is overrated if you can land the ball on a spot on the pitch consistently. I have seen your follow-up reply from that old speed competition, but, I'm afraid I trust my eyes and the ball is certainly flying off the pitch in some of these videos to suggest Hadlee was hitting 83-84 mph.
Click to expand...

None of those bowlers bowl around 120Ks ... they usually operated around 130-135K mark. Anderson and McGrath certainly did not pick up 100s of wkts like Hadlee bowling 120Ks. Beg to disagree with you on that video but sadly there is no way I can scientifically convince you.
 
Bewal Express said:
On TV
Click to expand...

So how does it put you in a better position than me when we can both see the same bowling footages on YT from the matches around the same time if not the same matches ? There is only one recording of the match that is broadcast unless you claim you were working in the media room. Other than having watched it live there is no difference between me and you when it comes to determining speed.
 
Bewal Express said:
First time i saw him bowl was in the 83 World cup against Pak at Edgebaston. Had us 3 for nothing and bowled beautifully. Then i saw him many times after, he bowled to the conditions and was up there with Marshall and IK as one of the bowlers of the decade in the 90s.
Click to expand...

I watched him open the bowling with Marshall in the MCC Bicentennary exhibition match. On a shirt front under blue skies, Marshall made Hadlee look ordinary that day.
 
England should reduce test matches they play per year. I doubt if this will happen but once that happen, they will start producing 140-150 kmph fast bowlers who can run through sides across all conditions and also start producing 50+ averaging batsmen.
 
Robert said:
I watched him open the bowling with Marshall in the MCC Bicentennary exhibition match. On a shirt front under blue skies, Marshall made Hadlee look ordinary that day.
Click to expand...

True , but if you look over the decade he was also a brilliant bowler.
 
Tusker said:
He was clocked with a max speed of 129K in the fast bowling competition back in 1978. Keep in mind that was not match conditions and the main aim was to bowl fast with no batsman facing him ( total of 8 balls with a lot of time gap between each delivery as every bowler took turns) . Then by his own admission he cut down his speed somewhere in the early 80s. Next if you observe his bowling footage he just ambles in bowls medium pace. I reckon not more than 120Ks tops that too if you are generous.

Now don't get all bent out of shape as this does not fit the image you have of Hadlee based on tall stories told by supposedly the "all knowing" oldies such as Robert.
Click to expand...

Why do people keep quoting that competition for exact speeds? Its been established that the methods used then were entirely different from how speeds are callculated now.

You can use that competition as reference point as in who was quicker in that competition but claiming that Hadlee was slower than Abbas is laughable to say the least.. for thise of us who have seen him bowl innhis pomp.

FYI- these days speeds are measured from the hand when the ball leaves it.
During that competition, they did it by measuring time it took once it left the hand and resched the other end.. s=d/t.. so its average speed over 22 yards with the trajectory, friction off the pitch, gravity all playing into it.. so the speeds will be significantly lower using that method..

Thommo rightly bemoans how he never got the credit for being the quickest bowler ever!! Lol
 
Stewie said:
FYI- these days speeds are measured from the hand when the ball leaves it.
During that competition, they did it by measuring time it took once it left the hand and resched the other end.. s=d/t.. so its average speed over 22 yards with the trajectory, friction off the pitch, gravity all playing into it.. so the speeds will be significantly lower using that method..

Thommo rightly bemoans how he never got the credit for being the quickest bowler ever!! Lol
Click to expand...

Absolutely not true. The speeds were measured at the release point just like today. Confirmed by the professor who did the study and in any case it is also in the video clip itself. I have the clip let me know if you want me to upload it. but otherwise the words used by the host that confirm this are :

"lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "
 
Robert said:
I watched him open the bowling with Marshall in the MCC Bicentennary exhibition match. On a shirt front under blue skies, Marshall made Hadlee look ordinary that day.
Click to expand...

Mustafizur can make Anderson look ordinary during a single match, doesn't mean anything. I don't understand how you compared two players from an exhibition match, which nobody takes seriously.
 
Tusker said:
And then [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] ran away from the discussion ... but then you had the cheek to say this on a old thread that I was reading.






Let me tell you this - The only thing you know is stories - mostly second hand - and very little of what you say can withstand a thorough fact check. This is the reason why you and the rest of the "Elite Old Era Brigade" invariably runs away when anyone starts to question your old > new claims. This is also the reason why you will never touch any topic where the facts are clearly visible to anyone - such as footage showing your beloved old ERA players playing ordinary cricket. You will just never ever touch the finer detailed topics such as batting techniques based on footage.

Try and learn how to indulge in a disciplined serious debate before you claim any superiority over anybody - especially when you want to accuse someone of concentration spans of goldfish. I can similarly make scathing comments about your age but I will refrain. I mean does the oldest guy in your country get to be the President/PrimeMinister or what ?

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

I think, that debate will always be there between cricketers of different era, therefore I don't use any statistical comparison between players of different era. Great players in every generation were admired by their peers & contemporaries - we can just compare their achievements and impact to the game.
 
MMHS said:
I think, that debate will always be there between cricketers of different era, therefore I don't use any statistical comparison between players of different era. Great players in every generation were admired by their peers & contemporaries - we can just compare their achievements and impact to the game.
Click to expand...

Exactly. But the likes of [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], [MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION] etc never tire of singing praises on how these players had magical abilities almost bionic. One guy here is claiming the the speeds measured were at the batsmans end in that speed bowling competition. That would make Thommo's release speeds in the baseball pitching range.

So when presented with facts you can be dead sure that they will just simply slip away from the thread only to surface in a different thread few days later and start the same nonsense all over again. And in-between make puerile comments like "Youngsters have the attention span of Gold fish". Sometimes I wonder what these guys might have said and done had they been actually able to substantiate their views thru proper facts. Dont even have the requisite discipline to debate properly but yeah everybody needs to just take these guys words as gospel because they are older ... Laughable.
 
Tusker said:
Absolutely not true. The speeds were measured at the release point just like today. Confirmed by the professor who did the study and in any case it is also in the video clip itself. I have the clip let me know if you want me to upload it. but otherwise the words used by the host that confirm this are :

"lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "
Click to expand...


Sure upload it.. ill certainly look at it..

But Hadlee was not a below 130kph bowler. Thats beyond ridiculous!
 
Stewie said:
Sure upload it.. ill certainly look at it..

But Hadlee was not a below 130kph bowler. Thats beyond ridiculous!
Click to expand...

It is EXACTLY those words ( I wrote it exactly verbatim as it was spoken by the host including the pause) I quoted above in RED ... so if you are not going to accept that even after seeing it ( well hearing it ) yourselves then Iam not going to bother going thru the hassle of uploading it to a file sharing website and sharing it.

So confirm if those words will be sufficient for you if you hear it from the original video clip.

And those words are ""lovely style a full toss ... still it is the speed that it leaves the hand that counts so lets just have a look and find out just how fast it did leave Wayne Daniels hand ... 123.6 "
 
Stewie said:
Sure upload it.. ill certainly look at it..

But Hadlee was not a below 130kph bowler. Thats beyond ridiculous!
Click to expand...

you know what ... it wasnt as painful as I thought it would be

here is the link : https://ufile.io/0r4t8

download the mp4 media file ( size is 119 MB) and play it in any media player and let me know when you are done. The part where they mention that its release speed starts at 14:55.

Let me know.
 
Bewal Express said:
True , but if you look over the decade he was also a brilliant bowler.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I saw a lot of him in 1983, 1986 and 1990. He was helped by a light workload. He never played a five test series, and only one four test series. That helped him stay fit.

His mental approach fascinated me. He set batting and bowling targets for every match. When he did the ‘double’ of 1000 runs and 100 wickets for Notts in 1984 I think, he knew how many wickets he was likely to get on the Trent Bridge greentop and how many he would have to get away from home. He was like Boycott in that regard, absorbed by the numbers, deep in the zone even off the field and not socialising much.

In the latter stages of the campaign he was behind in the runs and Clive Rice told him he would have to hit a double century. So he did, against my boys Middlesex, rescuing them from a top-order collapse.
 
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Blistering Barnacle said:
Even in this match, he's bowling around 79mph, which is around 127kph.
Click to expand...

thats his slowest ... the top speed is 83.5MPH ( 134.3K) ... you cannot calculate the avg from those numbers but if you look at the graph it is for the majority of the times above 130K.

But one or two Ks here and there does not matter much but what Iam saying is that it is unlikely he will keep taking wkts like that forever if his speed stays in that range.
 
Tusker said:
thats his slowest ... the top speed is 83.5MPH ( 134.3K) ... you cannot calculate the avg from those numbers but if you look at the graph it is for the majority of the times above 130K.

But one or two Ks here and there does not matter much but what Iam saying is that it is unlikely he will keep taking wkts like that forever if his speed stays in that range.
Click to expand...

I don't think so....I think the majority of the time it is below 130k. And his first few overs of this match also show that.
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
I don't think so....I think the majority of the time it is below 130k. And his first few overs of this match also show that.
Click to expand...

What do the numbers 79/83.5MPH in the graphic represent according to you ? to me they appear to be avg/top speeds respectively.
 
Tusker said:
What do the numbers 79/83.5MPH in the graphic represent according to you ? to me they appear to be avg/top speeds respectively.
Click to expand...

Well that would show then that his average speed is about 127kph. Basically I've been saying he bowls a lot in the 120s. That is borne out by the link you shared.
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
Well that would show then that his average speed is about 127kph. Basically I've been saying he bowls a lot in the 120s. That is borne out by the link you shared.
Click to expand...

But its not 122-125K as you said initially. Once he starts to play the big teams consistently his avg will drop and the wkts will dry up. Wait and watch. numerous Indian and SL bowlers have tried the line and length minus pace option and have failed.
 
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Tusker said:
But its not 122-125K as you said initially. Once he starts to play the big teams consistently his avg will drop and the wkts will dry up. Wait and watch. numerous Indian and SL bowlers have tried the line and length minus pace option and have failed.
Click to expand...

I said he was bowling 122, 125 kph in the first test as examples of the speeds he was bowling. I was watching on tv and noticed the slow speeds. So I posted to correct you. You mentioned he was bowling 130-135kph mostly. Clearly, that's not the case, as his average is around 127kph.
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
I said he was bowling 122, 125 kph in the first test as examples of the speeds he was bowling. I was watching on tv and noticed the slow speeds. So I posted to correct you. You mentioned he was bowling 130-135kph mostly. Clearly, that's not the case, as his average is around 127kph.
Click to expand...

You cannot have that Avg speed of 127 unless he also bowls in the 130-133 range. And moreover this is from one test ... for instance in the Eng 1st Test he bowled at avg 81.7 with Max speed of 85.7 MPH http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...vs-pakistan-1st-test-pak-in-ire-eng-scot-2018 .. in WI it was 81.2 with a max of 86.1 http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...est-indies-vs-pakistan-1st-test-wi-v-pak-2017 so its a mixed bag. if we want to get really paticular and picky then yes he does bowl under 130K also. Also true is that he can crank it upto 86/87 MPH.

But like I said this is splitting hairs and 1-2Ks here and there wont make any significant difference to the batsmen. The larger point is he too will be found out as and when people get used to him. In any case Hadlees top speed was 129K in a wind assisted fast bowling competition. Abbas has a top speed of 86.1MPH ( 138K ) that is significantly higher than Hadlee's speed. Hadlee is also on record for saying he cut down his speeds which is why I say he bowled around 120K's (Unless you want to go down the route of speed measured at batsmans end like Stewie does )
 
Tusker said:
You cannot have that Avg speed of 127 unless he also bowls in the 130-133 range.
Click to expand...

You're being really stubborn about this, when your point was about how much slower hadlee was by stating that Abbas was a level higher in speed. Turns out Abbas mostly bowls in the 120s as well. In fact, according to the links you provided, Hadlee's average speed in that bowling competition was higher than Abbas' in the first test against NZ.

Let's see what he's bowling at right now according to TV coverage.

Day 3 -

First over - 122, 123, 124, 125, 125, 124.

Second over - 127, 126.70, 121.70 (nb), not shown, 126, not shown, 126.50

In addition, bowling at an average of 127kph - no that doesn't mean that you bowl a lot in the 130-135kph range. If you did, your average speed would be higher.
 
here's the third over -

124.70, not shown, not shown, 118, not shown, 128.80

In comparison, Hasan is bowling around 135kph.
 
Blistering Barnacle said:
You're being really stubborn about this, when your point was about how much slower hadlee was by stating that Abbas was a level higher in speed.
Click to expand...

I also said that 1 or 2K's either way does not matter . And you seem to be stubbornly refusing to accept the fact that Abbas can bowl upto around 85-87 MPH in match conditions?

Turns out Abbas mostly bowls in the 120s as well. In fact, according to the links you provided, Hadlee's average speed in that bowling competition was higher than Abbas' in the first test against NZ.
Click to expand...

in this test yes but it is higher in few other tests for Abbas. But again as I keep saying that 129.8K is Hadlee's fastest ever recorded speed that too in wind assisted non-match conditions. He went on to reduce his speed by his own admission. Abbas however has a fastest speed recorded of nearly 87MPH. There is no evidence at all that Hadlee bowled anywhere remotely close to those speeds in match conditions ( or even in the fast bowling competition )



Let's see what he's bowling at right now according to TV coverage.

Day 3 -

First over - 122, 123, 124, 125, 125, 124.

Second over - 127, 126.70, 121.70 (nb), not shown, 126, not shown, 126.50

In addition, bowling at an average of 127kph - no that doesn't mean that you bowl a lot in the 130-135kph range. If you did, your average speed would be higher.
Click to expand...

these speeds you list are different from those on the Hawkeye tab in the scorecard. And Hawkeye is the official one.

And regarding whether or not and how much % he bowls above 130K ... see the attached snapshot from a Test match in England. The yellow line represents about 81-82MPH which is around the 131K mark and you can see plenty of balls above that. So if you really want to be picky about this % above 130K you need to do this exercise for all innings and all tests lol.

So if you do that exercise for all tests you will get a significant no.of deliveries bowled above 130K. But again 130K is not some magic number where things become automatically difficult for a batsman as opposed to 129K which is why I said this is like splitting hair. However there is significant difference as you go lower towards 120K which is the range Hadlee bowled at.



130K.jpg
 
I was watching the match live and the speeds they give on TV are the official speeds. And average speed is the figure to look at, not the slowest or fastest balls.

I think we're done debating this - the facts are there for all to see in terms of how fast he has been bowling, even according to your own links.
 
Looks like Sir Richard’s advice didn’t have much effect in this match.
 
Robert said:
Looks like Sir Richard’s advice didn’t have much effect in this match.
Click to expand...

Except he didnt take the advice or atleast didnt cut down on his pace in this Test Match. How do I know ?

Its very simple - on Cricinfo scorecard go to the hawkeye tab and click on the Bowl speeds at the bottom of the graphic and check his speeds --> http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...i-lanka-vs-england-3rd-test-eng-in-sl-2018-19


1st inngs - Avg speed 85.7 , top speed 89.5
2nd inngs - Avg Speed 85.9 , Top Speed 88.5

This small example highlights the difference between how you and I accept and acknowledge information.

So in this case for you to accept that Broad did not take Hadlee's advice you will probably need a official media confirmation to that effect. That's unlikely to happen.
 
aloo paratha said:
Watched the highlights for day 2, got the edge of 2 batsmen, slip put both down.
Click to expand...

Broadly does seem to suffer from a lot of drops. The England cordon is not what it was. Strauss, Flintoff and Swann caught everything.
 
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