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Swiss Muslim girls must learn to swim with boys, court rules

Abdullah719

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Switzerland has won a case at the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) obliging Muslim parents to send their children to mixed swimming lessons.

It said authorities were justified in giving precedence to enforcing "the full school curriculum" and the children's "successful integration" into society.

The ECHR acknowledged that religious freedom was being interfered with.

But judges said it did not amount to a violation.

The case was brought by two Swiss nationals, of Turkish origin, who refused to send their teenage daughters to the compulsory mixed lessons in the city of Basel.

Education officials, however, said that exemptions were available only for girls who had reached the age of puberty - which the girls had not reached at the time.

In 2010, after a long-running dispute, the parents were ordered to pay a combined fine of 1,400 Swiss Francs ($1,380, £1,136) "for acting in breach of their parental duty".

They argued that such treatment was a violation of article nine of the European Convention on Human Rights, which covers the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

In a statement, the ECHR said the refusal to exempt the girls had interfered with the right to freedom of religion.

But it also said the law involved was designed to "protect foreign pupils from any form of social exclusion" and Switzerland was free to design its education system according to its own needs and traditions.

Schools, it said, played an important role in social integration, and exemptions from some lessons are "justified only in very exceptional circumstances".

"Accordingly, the children's interest in a full education, thus facilitating their successful social integration according to local customs and mores, prevailed over the parents' wish to have their children exempted from mixed swimming lessons," the court said.

The court also noted that "very flexible arrangements" had been offered as a compromise, including allowing the girls to wear burkinis during lessons rather than traditional swimwear, and allowing them to change clothes with no boys in the room.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38569428
 
Immigrants there have to respect Swiss values, I bet Western tourists are forced to use segregated swimming pools in Pakistan and other muslim countries. Even the lines and the transportation system there is segregated.
 
Immigrants there have to respect Swiss values, I bet Western tourists are forced to use segregated swimming pools in Pakistan and other muslim countries. Even the lines and the transportation system there is segregated.

You are referring to a lack of other options - no one forces them to go anywhere. Slight difference to OP.
 
You are referring to a lack of other options - no one forces them to go anywhere. Slight difference to OP.

Yeah but I'm pretty sure Pakistan woud require everything to be gender segregated and that's fine, we expect other people to respect our values but it isn't good to force your values on another nation.
 
Switzerland allow segregation after the puberty.

And in this case, officials tried their best to accommodate the concerns of parents of very small girls by providing "burqani" type costume. However, mother refused and as expected lost the case.

IMO, they have been given a very light fine.
 
Switzerland allow segregation after the puberty.

And in this case, officials tried their best to accommodate the concerns of parents of very small girls by providing "burqani" type costume. However, mother refused and as expected lost the case.

IMO, they have been given a very light fine.

That makes sense, why should little kids in grade school be segregated. Reminds of seeing girls as little as 4 years old wearing hijabs in Pakistan. :facepalm:
 
Some very amusing comments on social media, saying they should go back to their country (Swiss nationals).
 
Yeah but I'm pretty sure Pakistan woud require everything to be gender segregated and that's fine, we expect other people to respect our values but it isn't good to force your values on another nation.

I am not sure how opting out of something equates to 'forcing your values on another nation'.
 
Well if you are an immigrant to any country then you must respect the rules and traditions of that country.
 
I am not sure how opting out of something equates to 'forcing your values on another nation'.

These classes were mandatory so opt-out was not available.
Court said that they respect religious freedom, but cannot ignore the aspect of social integration.

If you have no desire to integrate then migrating does not make sense, except for economic reasons. It's like staying in bad marriage with a rich man/woman.
 
Well if you are an immigrant to any country then you must respect the rules and traditions of that country.

Not necessarily, you always can criticize bad ideas, laws, practices etc. You can challenge govt etc. In canada, several immigrant won cases against federal govt.
 
This is a very sad and bad news. It makes no sense to me.

This is bad news for " practicing " muslims.


If other countries also follow switzerland than this would make life very difficult for " practicing " muslims.




I don't know how the judge calibrated that this does not infringe religious rights of a teenager girl and her parents ? what was the barrometer ?



# very painful judgement
 
This is a very sad and bad news. It makes no sense to me.

This is bad news for " practicing " muslims.


If other countries also follow switzerland than this would make life very difficult for " practicing " muslims.




I don't know how the judge calibrated that this does not infringe religious rights of a teenager girl and her parents ? what was the barrometer ?



# very painful judgement

Just to be clear, case dated back to 2008, girls were 7 and 9 years old then. There were not teen then, Fine is given caused that refused then.

After puberty you can have segregated classes so now they can have segregated classes.
 
If the kids are under 10 it shouldn't even be a problem, kids don't have segregation in Islam either as far as I know.
 
Just to be clear, case dated back to 2008, girls were 7 and 9 years old then. There were not teen then, Fine is given caused that refused then.

After puberty you can have segregated classes so now they can have segregated classes.


Well there was a thread on last year incidence aswell. So I thought It was regarding that news.


So if a girl attains puberty at say 12 she has to submit a doctor's certificate ? This is too personal.
 
I have not checked about it.
But I will assume that officials will honor verbal statement and would not discrimate because of religion or skin color.

I think other case happened in Germany.
 
Immigrants there have to respect Swiss values, I bet Western tourists are forced to use segregated swimming pools in Pakistan and other muslim countries. Even the lines and the transportation system there is segregated.

This was exactly what I thought of, when I read this.

Let the kids grow up and make their informed choices. No need to be starting them off down a path chosen by their parents.
 
UK, Year 5 and ours were not segregated, cant remember the age.

But if it's lower school? Then i dont see the problem
 
Not necessarily, you always can criticize bad ideas, laws, practices etc. You can challenge govt etc. In canada, several immigrant won cases against federal govt.

To each his own.I dont agree with the idea of immigrants clashing with the local laws and traditions,to keep alive their own laws and traditions,which they incidentally left to come to that country.
 
Wrong decision. I don't see the threat in swimming with your own gender.
 
If you don't want any members of the opposite sex to see your wife or daughter or whatever in any shape or form then why on earth go to societies where both genders mix constantly.

Imagine a Western father in Pakistan taking a case to court demanding his teenage sons be allowed to take swimming lessons with girls :))

Seriously, your biggest issue is that your pre-teen daughters have swimming lessons with boys. Absolute nonsense. Hell the school even allows non mixed lessons when they hit puberty (which is perfectly sensible as teens can be awkward/self conscious at that age) yet still these people weren't happy. The sort of Stone Age thinking that has no place in the 21st century
 
kids swimming in the same pool, no problem

teens in the same pool, it definitely is a problem by islamic conduct.

if segregated pools are a recommendation by your own society, then go for it.

don't think so its too expensive lol.
 
This is a very sad and bad news. It makes no sense to me.

This is bad news for " practicing " muslims.


If other countries also follow switzerland than this would make life very difficult for " practicing " muslims.




I don't know how the judge calibrated that this does not infringe religious rights of a teenager girl and her parents ? what was the barrometer ?



# very painful judgement

This is for the kids, even PhysEd and health classes are segregated after the puberty age in the West.. Co-Ed physEd becomes optional in some schools but you will always have Boys PhysEd and Girl's PhysEd separately. Think of it as two kids of different gender play fighting at the age of 4-5 and think of two 16 year olds doing that.
 
Well there was a thread on last year incidence aswell. So I thought It was regarding that news.


So if a girl attains puberty at say 12 she has to submit a doctor's certificate ? This is too personal.

No that is not how it works, these co-ed swimming or any co-ed activities generally only go up to a school year before when most kids are expected hit puberty. In my experience, our Health Class had segregation since grade 5. All the boys in that grade were brought to one health class and were taught by male teachers, same was for girls. By grade 6, we had segregated Phys-Ed/Gym classes with similar procedure. In high school we had an optional Co-Ed class on top of the mandatory segregated class but it required you to have certain amount of average so all the nutjobs don't get into the class and start hitting on girls.
 
Considering the ruling applies to children then there is absolutely no reason from an Islamic standpoint to be seeking segregation...so anyone protesting this is doing so with no textual basis...
 
This is for the kids, even PhysEd and health classes are segregated after the puberty age in the West.. Co-Ed physEd becomes optional in some schools but you will always have Boys PhysEd and Girl's PhysEd separately. Think of it as two kids of different gender play fighting at the age of 4-5 and think of two 16 year olds doing that.

Maybe in Canada.

We definetely had mixed in my high school
 
The thing I fail to realize is that why go to Swizerland and then expect them to abide by our norms and customs ? I mean this is failed logic at best.

I am not advocating mixed swimming for teenagers but even if the government decided to have them then Swiss are well within their rights to do how they please. If some Muslims can't see eye to eye on the matter then Hijrat is always an option isn't it ??
 
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Strewth. When I was a lad the British pools had 'no petting' signs up. If you fooled around you were chucked out of the pool and banned. It was part of learning how to behave appropriately with the opposite sex.
 
Maybe in Canada.

We definetely had mixed in my high school

So in Phys-Ed girls and boys play sport together ? The guys have to take it easy to not over run the girls in every sports no ? Sounds like no fun.
 
Don't see a problem if it's only for children.

The school where I learnt swimming had joint swimming classes for children and even adults but an option available for ladies only during a specified time period. It's the same case with most pools, general (mixed) for the most part and ladies only period for about an hour or two in the morning and evening.

Still remember me and my brother being embarrassed a little girl who was swimming like a seasoned swimmer with a smirk on her face in the 10-15 ft region while we were learning (and struggling) to swim with tubes and tyres in the 5 ft region lmao..:yk3
 
So in Phys-Ed girls and boys play sport together ? The guys have to take it easy to not over run the girls in every sports no ? Sounds like no fun.

More like most the boys played seriously and the girls just hanged around
 
In the UK school swimming lessons stop after the age of 10, and if the girls are around that age, I don't see any problems.
 
The thing I fail to realize is that why go to Swizerland and then expect them to abide by our norms and customs ? I mean this is failed logic at best.

I am not advocating mixed swimming for teenagers but even if the government decided to have them then Swiss are well within their rights to do how they please. If some Muslims can't see eye to eye on the matter then Hijrat is always an option isn't it ??

Agree with you. It's their country, their rules.

Im tired of reading about muslims complaining about these western countries. Why don't they go and live in Saudia or Iran which ever they prefer.
 
Their country their rules. Have problem with the culture there return back to your own motherland.
 
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