Türkiye Versus India - Who is more powerful?

[rickroll]

So I have been reading quite a few articles recently about the rising power of Türkiye and it's geo-strategic location adding to its power as well. This got me very curious about which country has more holistic power (not just military but also economic, cultural, knowledge etc). I know Türkiye is a darling among Pakistanis and Indians do not feel as warm about Türkiye.

Military - Let's consider India without its nuclear capabilities for a more apples-apples comparison. Who is more powerful militarily in terms of past accomplishments, projection of military power in its region, and current military capabilities (discounting nuclear)?

Political - Both of them seem to have strong autocratic style conservative leaning leaders in Modi and Erdogan. Both have their sets of allies and other countries valuing them for their respective stances - Türkiye for NATO and India being seen as an offset against China and their long term alliance with Russia. So who has more global political power today?

Cultural - Türkiye has its own amazing music, culture and contemporary shows like Ertugul. India has its similar equivalents. I think cultural power is also termed as soft power in some documentaries. So who has more soft power today?

Expat Effect - India seems to have its expats throughout the world and Türkiye seems to have its fair share in EU and in the US, including prominent sports personalities in EU. Perhaps one could also include the Turkic people from central Asia as part of the long time expats of Türkiye (maybe I'm wrong about this). Who has more power here?

Economy - Indians seem to always move discussions back to their economic power in Pakistani forums because they know they have an advantage there against Pakistan as of today. But how do Türkiye and India fare against each other in terms of their current economic might that includes both overall GDP and on a per capita basis since both these measures can offer distinct advantages?

Knowledge - Usually overlooked in arguments in many online forums but this is one of the most important factors for a nation since this is the engine driving everything else. Who has the better knowledge capital as of today between Türkiye and India and who has a better education system for their respective populations for future knowledge growth?

This is something I'm genuinely curious about. I'm hoping to have meaningful insights and discussions here from the forum members and prefer not to have this topic devolve into hate comments.

 

[uppercut]

Great topic!! I will pitch in later but wont be surprised if the usual suspects might have thoroughly derailed this thread by then and turned it into a pissing contest.

PS: India is not an "autocratic style" democracy by any stretch of imagination( will provide facts later). Another thing to consider is the sheer size. But it all comes down to how you define power? Does that mean having the ability to calling shots on the global stage and getting things done that that are beneficial to the country's interest or does that mean something else ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

I will take India any day now. If you had asked this in 90's or even early 2000's, I would have said Turkey is better and more upside.

The next 50 years will all be about China and India. But US will still be No.1.

 

[rickroll]

Great topic!! I will pitch in later but wont be surprised if the usual suspects might have thoroughly derailed this thread by then and turned it into a pissing contest.

PS: India is not an "autocratic style" democracy by any stretch of imagination( will provide facts later). Another thing to consider is the sheer size. But it all comes down to how you define power? Does that mean having the ability to calling shots on the global stage and getting things done that that are beneficial to the country's interest or does that mean something else ?

Thank you. I'm hoping for an interesting discussion regarding this.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pound for pound Turkyie. India is only what it is due to the size of land mass and esp the size of population.

Turks have more allies esp within the Islamic world and not that I think it means much right now but also part of Nato.

Turks also have a very important strategic location on the globe.

Imo Turks should try to become a nuclear armed power and then leave Nato. If they do this , they have the potential to become a future superpower, just as this land was the home of a global empire for hundreds of years under the Ottomans.

 

[rickroll]

Pound for pound Turkyie. India is only what it is due to the size of land mass and esp the size of population.

Turks have more allies esp within the Islamic world and not that I think it means much right now but also part of Nato.

Turks also have a very important strategic location on the globe.

Imo Turks should try to become a nuclear armed power and then leave Nato. If they do this , they have the potential to become a future superpower, just as this land was the home of a global empire for hundreds of years under the Ottomans.

Good points about Islamic allies for Turkiye and the importance of their geo strategic location. I think to keep it balanced, we should consider India with it's population (and we have already discounted India's nuclear capability). India has the luck of the draw with population advantage and Turkiye has a similar luck of the draw with its geographic location.

I do suspect that in spite of considering India's population, Turkiye could be more overall powerful considering ALL factors in my OP but that is a different point altogether.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I will take India any day now. If you had asked this in 90's or even early 2000's, I would have said Turkey is better and more upside.

The next 50 years will all be about China and India. But US will still be No.1.

I don't believe the OP was talking about the next 50 years, unless I'm mistaken we are talking current times. If we are talking in present terms, I think it would be pretty hard to argue India.

 

[rickroll]

For clarity - My post/question is who is more powerful as of today taking into account Turkey's geo strategic advantage and any population advantage India has while discounting India's nuclear capability when comparing military strengths.

 

[Buffet]

Country power may not be exactly in the same proportion, but it's pretty much mirrors their size of GDP when it comes to global influence.

If global GDP is 100T and one country has 20T out of it then country will be very influential power world. Some country with 5T won't be at same level as 20T economy.

China hardly had any influence 30 years ago. Population was still large, land mass was still large, but their economy was insignificant as compared to world's economy. Now they are significant part and likely to become number one in future. Their influence grew with their economy.


Coming back to comparing India and Turkey. Indian economy is 4 times bigger and this ratio is going to get a more lop sided with time.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

So I have been reading quite a few articles recently about the rising power of Türkiye and it's geo-strategic location adding to its power as well. This got me very curious about which country has more holistic power (not just military but also economic, cultural, knowledge etc). I know Türkiye is a darling among Pakistanis and Indians do not feel as warm about Türkiye.

Military - Let's consider India without its nuclear capabilities for a more apples-apples comparison. Who is more powerful militarily in terms of past accomplishments, projection of military power in its region, and current military capabilities (discounting nuclear)?

Political - Both of them seem to have strong autocratic style conservative leaning leaders in Modi and Erdogan. Both have their sets of allies and other countries valuing them for their respective stances - Türkiye for NATO and India being seen as an offset against China and their long term alliance with Russia. So who has more global political power today?

Cultural - Türkiye has its own amazing music, culture and contemporary shows like Ertugul. India has its similar equivalents. I think cultural power is also termed as soft power in some documentaries. So who has more soft power today?

Expat Effect - India seems to have its expats throughout the world and Türkiye seems to have its fair share in EU and in the US, including prominent sports personalities in EU. Perhaps one could also include the Turkic people from central Asia as part of the long time expats of Türkiye (maybe I'm wrong about this). Who has more power here?

Economy - Indians seem to always move discussions back to their economic power in Pakistani forums because they know they have an advantage there against Pakistan as of today. But how do Türkiye and India fare against each other in terms of their current economic might that includes both overall GDP and on a per capita basis since both these measures can offer distinct advantages?

Knowledge - Usually overlooked in arguments in many online forums but this is one of the most important factors for a nation since this is the engine driving everything else. Who has the better knowledge capital as of today between Türkiye and India and who has a better education system for their respective populations for future knowledge growth?

This is something I'm genuinely curious about. I'm hoping to have meaningful insights and discussions here from the forum members and prefer not to have this topic devolve into hate comments.

I think a subsequent and perhaps a more thoughtful question is, how does that “might and power” translate into improving the quality of life of that country?

India is perhaps more powerful in terms quantity but what if we compare the quality of life of the citizens of both countries?

I don’t have any numbers or data but having visited Turkey, I think the quality of life of general Turk population is much, much better (healthy and cleaner too) than the general public life of a huge majority of Indians.

So exactly how good is your might if you can’t do the right?

 

[rickroll]

I think a subsequent and perhaps a more thoughtful question is, how does that “might and power” translate into improving the quality of life of that country?

India is perhaps more powerful in terms quantity but what if we compare the quality of life of the citizens of both countries?

I don’t have any numbers or data but having visited Turkey, I think the quality of life of general Turk population is much, much better (healthy and cleaner too) than the general public life of a huge majority of Indians.

So exactly how good is your might if you can’t do the right?

True about quality or more accurately total power on a per capita basis. No doubt overall quality of life in Turkey is better than in India today. I think it could be a much bigger discussion and digress into many other points. Hence I wanted to limit the scope to just total holistic power of each of the two nations and see which is more powerful. Of course, we can make a follow up thread to quality of life after this one.

 

[wasim-fan]

Turkey is almost a developed country. India is at least 20 years away on that regards. Geopolitically because of scale and Indians abroad, India has perhaps more global relevance at the moment. Plus Turkish economy continues to tank with record inflation. However Turkey has done a remarkable job in punching way above it's weight. In terms of trajectory though, turkey is declining big time. I was shocked to see state of the economy in my recent visit. It's on a secular decline with middle class looking for opportunities to leave for Europe.

 

[uppercut]

So I have been reading quite a few articles recently about the rising power of Türkiye and it's geo-strategic location adding to its power as well. This got me very curious about which country has more holistic power (not just military but also economic, cultural, knowledge etc). I know Türkiye is a darling among Pakistanis and Indians do not feel as warm about Türkiye.

Military - Let's consider India without its nuclear capabilities for a more apples-apples comparison. Who is more powerful militarily in terms of past accomplishments, projection of military power in its region, and current military capabilities (discounting nuclear)?

Political - Both of them seem to have strong autocratic style conservative leaning leaders in Modi and Erdogan. Both have their sets of allies and other countries valuing them for their respective stances - Türkiye for NATO and India being seen as an offset against China and their long term alliance with Russia. So who has more global political power today?

Cultural - Türkiye has its own amazing music, culture and contemporary shows like Ertugul. India has its similar equivalents. I think cultural power is also termed as soft power in some documentaries. So who has more soft power today?

Expat Effect - India seems to have its expats throughout the world and Türkiye seems to have its fair share in EU and in the US, including prominent sports personalities in EU. Perhaps one could also include the Turkic people from central Asia as part of the long time expats of Türkiye (maybe I'm wrong about this). Who has more power here?

Economy - Indians seem to always move discussions back to their economic power in Pakistani forums because they know they have an advantage there against Pakistan as of today. But how do Türkiye and India fare against each other in terms of their current economic might that includes both overall GDP and on a per capita basis since both these measures can offer distinct advantages?

Knowledge - Usually overlooked in arguments in many online forums but this is one of the most important factors for a nation since this is the engine driving everything else. Who has the better knowledge capital as of today between Türkiye and India and who has a better education system for their respective populations for future knowledge growth?

This is something I'm genuinely curious about. I'm hoping to have meaningful insights and discussions here from the forum members and prefer not to have this topic devolve into hate comments.

I would look at it this way using the recent major geo political event: The Ukraine war. Which world super power was able to arm twist India into following their agenda? The US and EU tried to pressure Ind in to not buying Russian oil but it made no difference to India's position. It even went on to profit from buying Russian crude oil at steep discount and then reselling it to EU nations of all at a profit !! and at the same time struck new deals to supply arms to those countries that were reliant on Russian arms when Russia suspended military sales to these countries. Infact there is talk of India selling back used Russian military h/w to Russia !!

Such deft maneuvering is not possible without significant clout. It also helps when a country is self reliant in multiple industries. Oil refining at massive scale, manufacture our own missiles, a world class pharma industry, a world class space program and no shortage of skilled man power to name a few.

Turkey scores very poorly on these factors as it is heavily dependent on outside tech for most of its military and other needs. Therefore it has to tread carefully without antagonizing the Chinese and Russians while still remaining a NATO member. Previously the US used Turkey as a military base.

UNSC : India is the top contender to become a permanent UNSC member. Not Turkey

Economy: India is one of the few countries thats venturing into de-dollarization and challenge the Dollars status quo. Still early days but it has started.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would look at it this way using the recent major geo political event: The Ukraine war. Which world super power was able to arm twist India into following their agenda? The US and EU tried to pressure Ind in to not buying Russian oil but it made no difference to India's position. It even went on to profit from buying Russian crude oil at steep discount and then reselling it to EU nations of all at a profit !! and at the same time struck new deals to supply arms to those countries that were reliant on Russian arms when Russia suspended military sales to these countries. Infact there is talk of India selling back used Russian military h/w to Russia !!

Such deft maneuvering is not possible without significant clout. It also helps when a country is self reliant in multiple industries. Oil refining at massive scale, manufacture our own missiles, a world class pharma industry, a world class space program and no shortage of skilled man power to name a few.

Turkey scores very poorly on these factors as it is heavily dependent on outside tech for most of its military and other needs. Therefore it has to tread carefully without antagonizing the Chinese and Russians while still remaining a NATO member. Previously the US used Turkey as a military base.

UNSC : India is the top contender to become a permanent UNSC member. Not Turkey

Economy: India is one of the few countries thats venturing into de-dollarization and challenge the Dollars status quo. Still early days but it has started.

The only reason India hasn't been arm-twisted is because geo-politically it doesn't matter as a region. Their biggest resource is cheap labour that can speak English. No cultural obstacles either, because of the soft power of English language and lack of cultural resistance, this creates a massive market for western countries to sell into, with very little threat on the horizon coming back at us which will threaten our economies.

But if they do ever threaten our economies then I guess we would find out just how easy it is to turn the screw and where would India find allies then?

 

[uppercut]

The only reason India hasn't been arm-twisted is because geo-politically it doesn't matter as a region.

Why is the US courting India then with the offer of NATO membership and forming a QUAD alliance to counter China ?

Their biggest resource is cheap labour that can speak English. No cultural obstacles either, because of the soft power of English language and lack of cultural resistance, this creates a massive market for western countries to sell into, with very little threat on the horizon coming back at us which will threaten our economies.

But if they do ever threaten our economies then I guess we would find out just how easy it is to turn the screw and where would India find allies then?

What are the most notable products that the Western countries are selling to India ?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why is the US courting India then with the offer of NATO membership and forming a QUAD alliance to counter China ?

What are the most notable products that the Western countries are selling to India ?

The US is courting India because they need to counter China.

What are the most notable products western countries are selling to India? Our culture. Our language. Our hygiene standards. Do you want me to go on?

 

[uppercut]

The US is courting India because they need to counter China.

You want to retract your pompous claim that "geo-politically India doesn't matter as a region" ? Or you going to start your usual verbal gymnastics ?

What are the most notable products western countries are selling to India? Our culture. Our language. Our hygiene standards. Do you want me to go on?

And how is that benefitting the Western countries considering that most of them run a trade deficit with India ?

And BTW India openly flouting the EU and US ban on buying Russian oil does not constitute as going against Western Interests ?

 

[rickroll]

I would look at it this way using the recent major geo political event: The Ukraine war. Which world super power was able to arm twist India into following their agenda? The US and EU tried to pressure Ind in to not buying Russian oil but it made no difference to India's position. It even went on to profit from buying Russian crude oil at steep discount and then reselling it to EU nations of all at a profit !! and at the same time struck new deals to supply arms to those countries that were reliant on Russian arms when Russia suspended military sales to these countries. Infact there is talk of India selling back used Russian military h/w to Russia !!

Such deft maneuvering is not possible without significant clout. It also helps when a country is self reliant in multiple industries. Oil refining at massive scale, manufacture our own missiles, a world class pharma industry, a world class space program and no shortage of skilled man power to name a few.

Turkey scores very poorly on these factors as it is heavily dependent on outside tech for most of its military and other needs. Therefore it has to tread carefully without antagonizing the Chinese and Russians while still remaining a NATO member. Previously the US used Turkey as a military base.

UNSC : India is the top contender to become a permanent UNSC member. Not Turkey

Economy: India is one of the few countries thats venturing into de-dollarization and challenge the Dollars status quo. Still early days but it has started.

Interesting point about drawing a parallel from Ukraine war.

Regarding the bolded part - India is also dependent on Russia and western nations for military hardware, right? How is this a disadvantage only for Turkey?

The US is courting India because they need to counter China.

What are the most notable products western countries are selling to India? Our culture. Our language. Our hygiene standards. Do you want me to go on?

+1 for countering to China part. I agree. By the same token, aren't western nations using Turkey for their geo-strategic location against Russia? There are no saints and everyone is using someone else while also getting used by someone else, right? I'm trying to understand the distinct disadvantage of India when it is used as a counter in a scenario where most other emerging world countries are also being used.

Regarding other points - massive labor pool of India, western countries selling to India - Isn't this the norm for all countries now with interconnected global trade? No country is out to do pure charity and it is all a give-take in international relations. Global trade relations today is multi-layer connected with products, services, and capital across so many industry segments, hence natural for some to offer cheap manufacturing (China, Vietnam), some to offer cheap services (India, Philippines) and some to offer cheaper capital in flow (US, EU, China).

Same logic here too, everyone is using someone for their specific offering, while getting used by others for something they offer. Where is the distinct advantage (or disadvantage) for India or Turkey here? Or is the advantage in global trade measured by "how much a certain country is used by others and thus their worthiness" aka trade imbalances?

 

[uppercut]

Interesting point about drawing a parallel from Ukraine war.

Regarding the bolded part - India is also dependent on Russia and western nations for military hardware, right? How is this a disadvantage only for Turkey?

Thats true but not to the extent that Turkey is dependent on US and now slowly to Russia. However the significant difference lies in Indias own indigenous Missile program, Nuclear weapons, Submarine and slowly fighter jets. Not saying that these are anywhere as capable as F16s or Rafale's but its fairly decent start. India has also started selling weapons to many countries now. This is a huge change from the past. Turkey is far away from getting to that level ... especially nuke tech , missile tech and space tech which complement each other.

+1 for countering to China part. I agree. By the same token, aren't western nations using Turkey for their geo-strategic location against Russia? There are no saints and everyone is using someone else while also getting used by someone else, right? I'm trying to understand the distinct disadvantage of India when it is used as a counter in a scenario where most other emerging world countries are also being used.

Regarding other points - massive labor pool of India, western countries selling to India - Isn't this the norm for all countries now with interconnected global trade? No country is out to do pure charity and it is all a give-take in international relations. Global trade relations today is multi-layer connected with products, services, and capital across so many industry segments, hence natural for some to offer cheap manufacturing (China, Vietnam), some to offer cheap services (India, Philippines) and some to offer cheaper capital in flow (US, EU, China).

Same logic here too, everyone is using someone for their specific offering, while getting used by others for something they offer. Where is the distinct advantage (or disadvantage) for India or Turkey here? Or is the advantage in global trade measured by "how much a certain country is used by others and thus their worthiness" aka trade imbalances?

Good observations but if there is a saint in todays world it is India ... we have a very genuine no strings attached aid program especially when it comes to Pharma. India earned a lot of respect and gratitude for helping many poor countries during covid times by helping them with cheap vaccines unlike the US pharma giants that wanted to cash in. This wasnt the first time ... previously India has stood up against the Evil western Pharma giants to sell very effective AIDS meds to African countries preventing millions of deaths. The stand that the western Pharma took was abominable to say the least which is why India has a lot of goodwill amongst many poor nations.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The only reason India hasn't been arm-twisted is because geo-politically it doesn't matter as a region. Their biggest resource is cheap labour that can speak English. No cultural obstacles either, because of the soft power of English language and lack of cultural resistance, this creates a massive market for western countries to sell into, with very little threat on the horizon coming back at us which will threaten our economies.

But if they do ever threaten our economies then I guess we would find out just how easy it is to turn the screw and where would India find allies then?

Who is this we? When did Pakistan had an economy that can be threatened? Pakistan has no leverage. Or are you trying to wear the Brit hat now. )

India doesn't matter thats why it's being courted for alliance.

How desperate you get trying to diss India and bait posters. All this would work if Pakistan was a great economic power and every UK PM since Cameroon wouldn't be bending to get a trade deal with India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The US is courting India because they need to counter China.

What are the most notable products western countries are selling to India? Our culture. Our language. Our hygiene standards. Do you want me to go on?

But you said India didn't matter.

I don't think anyone is buying Pakistani culture or language or hygiene in India.

 

[Romali_rotti]

But you said India didn't matter.

I don't think anyone is buying Pakistani culture or language or hygiene in India.

You have to give Captain a pass here as he is mentioning the Hygiene issue as a neutral Brit and not a Village Pakistani...

 

[NishanKonar]

Lets compare each of the points

1. Military : No comparison. India is way ahead of Turkeiye in size. Bcoz India has its own military and not dependent on NATO. However on qualitative side Turkiye is ahead bcoz they have best US weapons unlike India who have to do with inferior Russian weapons. So pound for pound TUrkiye army is better than India but due to overall size India is ahead

2. Economy : India wins here hands down. Last few years Turkiye economy has fallen in to bad times while India is fastest growing economy and with huge scope for growth in future

3. Political : Both countries have very authoritarian govt. Turkiye is slightly more authoritarian right now but not much difference

4. Culture : India wins here hands down. Bollywood is much bigger everywhere than Turkish entertainment. For all the success of Ertughul - even in the Islamic world Bellwood scores higher than Turkish dramas. Also Ertughul is mostly a success in Pakistan

5. Expats : India again wins hands down. Turkiye has a sizeable diaspora in 1 country - Germany. India has a large and influential diaspora in many countries - USA, UK , Canada, Australia, UAE, KSA , Fiji, Mauritius, Belgium, Trinidad, Guyana , South Africa, Surinam, New Zealand. And more importantly Indian diaspora is still growing in the West and becoming more influential

6. technology : Here both India & Turkiye have their strengths . India has space program, biotech, pharmacy , supercomputing. But Turkiye is also doing well in many sectors like drone technology

 

[wasim-fan]

I see many here mention economy of India being superior to Turkiye. How exactly ? On growth parameters, 100%. But Turkiye is $10000 per Capita GDP economy. Don't know if you folks have ever visited the country and especially the villages. People have a very commendable standard of living. The economy is declining but there is still no comparison on absolute terms on this front.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Who is this we? When did Pakistan had an economy that can be threatened? Pakistan has no leverage. Or are you trying to wear the Brit hat now. )

India doesn't matter thats why it's being courted for alliance.

How desperate you get trying to diss India and bait posters. All this would work if Pakistan was a great economic power and every UK PM since Cameroon wouldn't be bending to get a trade deal with India.

I am a Brit. I don't think this topic is about India vs Pakistan as a military power, maybe you have some issues you need to work out if you think it is. It's India vs Turkiye.

 

[boomboomcheema]

I see many here mention economy of India being superior to Turkiye. How exactly ? On growth parameters, 100%. But Turkiye is $10000 per Capita GDP economy. Don't know if you folks have ever visited the country and especially the villages. People have a very commendable standard of living. The economy is declining but there is still no comparison on absolute terms on this front.

It's a very Indian Habit of ignoring per capita living standards and keep bragging about PR exercise projects.

It's like a Family of 20 people with a total worth of 1000 USD bragging about being wealthier than a Family of 4 people with worth of 500 USD.

 

[NishanKonar]

I see many here mention economy of India being superior to Turkiye. How exactly ? On growth parameters, 100%. But Turkiye is $10000 per Capita GDP economy. Don't know if you folks have ever visited the country and especially the villages. People have a very commendable standard of living. The economy is declining but there is still no comparison on absolute terms on this front.

There are 2 ways to evakuate economy

1. Absolute terms - here Turkiye is ahead

2. Future growth : Here India is ahead. Turkiye has little scope for growth in the near future

For economists the future growth is generally a more important parameter than current situation. Like UK is much richer per capita than China but right now UK is in a big crisis while China is still surging forward !

Bcoz 10 years from now the family from UK / Turkiye will worse off than present day, while the family from China / India will be doing much better

 

[NishanKonar]

Give you a historic analogy

Turkiye is today like Mughals under Aurangzeb. A bigger power and economy but in a state of decline, facing economic woes and situation is going to get worse in future. India is more like Marathas. Currently an upstart but on its way to achieving greater relevance and influence in global affairs over the next decade

 

[Technics 1210]

Turkey, for the simple reason it is a member of NATO meaning it has leverage against the NATO members.

The rest of the comparisons between Turkey and India is just a statistical exercise.

 

[amax]

India might be ahead in certain fields, but when it comes to standard of living of masses Turkey is way ahead despite recent inflation crisis , you have to go to both countries to see the difference. Turkey actually is one of the few countries outside of EUROPE/NA and East asia to create this pseudo develop country look.

Another interesting comparison is cinema , both indian and Turkish cinema is quite popular in balkan countries interestingly

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Give you a historic analogy

Turkiye is today like Mughals under Aurangzeb. A bigger power and economy but in a state of decline, facing economic woes and situation is going to get worse in future. India is more like Marathas. Currently an upstart but on its way to achieving greater relevance and influence in global affairs over the next decade

Based on what? Just a massive population that can speak English in an unattractive accent. No one outside of India could give two hoots about Marathas since they don't have any idea who they are/were.

 

[NishanKonar]

Based on what? Just a massive population that can speak English in an unattractive accent. No one outside of India could give two hoots about Marathas since they don't have any idea who they are/were.

Like Stalin said Size has a quality of its own. Yes India's size has its advantage but more importantly its the fastest growing economy. I mean Pakistan also has a big population buts mostly irrelevant bcoz its people are lazy and unproductive

Thats why our PM will be visiting White House this month for a state visit and then France. While your ex PM Imran Khan kept crying that Joe Biden never picks up the phone ! Which is why folks like you try so hard to pretend that India is as irrelevant as Pakistan

 

[NishanKonar]

I am a Brit. I don't think this topic is about India vs Pakistan as a military power, maybe you have some issues you need to work out if you think it is. It's India vs Turkiye.

Just like you try so hard to hide your Pakistani roots and pretend to be British - same way many Pakistani- Americans try to hide their Pakistani identity and pretend to be Indian in the USA

 

[Mirpuri Don]

Türkiye's geo-strategic position, "bridge between Asia and Europe", will always make it relevant, and its human capital is under-rated : they're one of the few empire-builders out of the +100 countries and if you meet them in Europe they can be good in virtually all fields, business, academia, and sports (while most immigrants are either good or more often average in one or two but not all fields.)

They were basically destined to be successful sooner than later, and their rise in GDP/per capita under Erdogan (from 3000 or so to around 10 000 or so), their rising soft power in culture (from tourism to TV serials that are a hit from Latin America to the Balkans to Indonesia) or their defense industry (can we think about a modern-day military conflict without the Bayraktar drones) for me are just a sort of trailer, in the sense that I believe despite the economy taking a hit since 2018 their potential is way higher.

In the Muslim world I do believe others have the same sort of potential, Iran, Egypt, Morocco, ... and yes Pakistan (not being too patriotic), esp its Punjab province, but they still need that "national-populist" ruler like Erdogan, someone who can play with modernity (mainly economy) but without compromising too much so taking enthusiastic masses alongside him as well for a revolutionary process.

 

[amax]

Türkiye's geo-strategic position, "bridge between Asia and Europe", will always make it relevant, and its human capital is under-rated : they're one of the few empire-builders out of the +100 countries and if you meet them in Europe they can be good in virtually all fields, business, academia, and sports (while most immigrants are either good or more often average in one or two but not all fields.)

They were basically destined to be successful sooner than later, and their rise in GDP/per capita under Erdogan (from 3000 or so to around 10 000 or so), their rising soft power in culture (from tourism to TV serials that are a hit from Latin America to the Balkans to Indonesia) or their defense industry (can we think about a modern-day military conflict without the Bayraktar drones) for me are just a sort of trailer, in the sense that I believe despite the economy taking a hit since 2018 their potential is way higher.

In the Muslim world I do believe others have the same sort of potential, Iran, Egypt, Morocco, ... and yes Pakistan (not being too patriotic), esp its Punjab province, but they still need that "national-populist" ruler like Erdogan, someone who can play with modernity (mainly economy) but without compromising too much so taking enthusiastic masses alongside him as well for a revolutionary process.

My experience with Turks in Germany has been quite different , they live in alternate Germany of blue collar realm of warehouses and manual labour/low end stores(its almost like two different countries) , döner can be considered as a cultural influence they brought but it is largely considered low end junk food type item. i have rarely seen any Turkish restaurant considered as high end like Persian and Indian ones here. Tbh British Pakistanis have much more holistic impact on British society than Turks in Germany despite being much smaller diaspora.

 

[wasim-fan]

There are 2 ways to evakuate economy

1. Absolute terms - here Turkiye is ahead

2. Future growth : Here India is ahead. Turkiye has little scope for growth in the near future

For economists the future growth is generally a more important parameter than current situation. Like UK is much richer per capita than China but right now UK is in a big crisis while China is still surging forward !

Bcoz 10 years from now the family from UK / Turkiye will worse off than present day, while the family from China / India will be doing much better

So on growth trajectory, I totally get it. Highest FDI, highest GDP growth rate etc etc. But we are not talking about 10 years from now. Theoretically India should be a $12-14 trillion economy and GDP per Capita of $8000. Yes in PPP terms India is perhaps much more than $8000, but I don't see how you can guage their current strength based on future performance.

 

[NishanKonar]

So on growth trajectory, I totally get it. Highest FDI, highest GDP growth rate etc etc. But we are not talking about 10 years from now. Theoretically India should be a $12-14 trillion economy and GDP per Capita of $8000. Yes in PPP terms India is perhaps much more than $8000, but I don't see how you can guage their current strength based on future performance.

Bcoz countries with more future potential gets more influence. See both Tukiye bought S400 from Russia. BUt while Turkiye faced sanctions from USA - even though its a NATO member. India faced no such sanctions . In fact India is now all set to get GE jet engine technology from the US. While Turkiye had to return all the F35s back to USA

Thats bcoz the US does not want to antagonize a country with big potential growth while Turkiye does not matter so much bcoz its economy is toast

Now imagine if Turkiye was growing at much better pace - then US will never impose such sanctions

Point is bcoz India is set to be 10 trillion USD economy in the next 10 years - the country is being currently wooed by Western powers. That's why over the next week there will be state visits to France & USA. That's why India was invited to G7. Turkiye gets no such attentions - except for Shahbaz Sharif

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just like you try so hard to hide your Pakistani roots and pretend to be British - same way many Pakistani- Americans try to hide their Pakistani identity and pretend to be Indian in the USA

Not sure what you are saying here. Are you talking about me the poster or Pakistanis in general pretending to hide their roots yet somehow failing to integtrate with British culture? Can't speak on behalf of US Pakistanis, if you insist they are pretending to be Indians only they can answer that.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My experience with Turks in Germany has been quite different , they live in alternate Germany of blue collar realm of warehouses and manual labour/low end stores(its almost like two different countries) , döner can be considered as a cultural influence they brought but it is largely considered low end junk food type item. i have rarely seen any Turkish restaurant considered as high end like Persian and Indian ones here. Tbh British Pakistanis have much more holistic impact on British society than Turks in Germany despite being much smaller diaspora.

Any food is considered high end compared to the local German cuisine.

 

[wasim-fan]

Bcoz countries with more future potential gets more influence. See both Tukiye bought S400 from Russia. BUt while Turkiye faced sanctions from USA - even though its a NATO member. India faced no such sanctions . In fact India is now all set to get GE jet engine technology from the US. While Turkiye had to return all the F35s back to USA

Thats bcoz the US does not want to antagonize a country with big potential growth while Turkiye does not matter so much bcoz its economy is toast

Now imagine if Turkiye was growing at much better pace - then US will never impose such sanctions

Point is bcoz India is set to be 10 trillion USD economy in the next 10 years - the country is being currently wooed by Western powers. That's why over the next week there will be state visits to France & USA. That's why India was invited to G7. Turkiye gets no such attentions - except for Shahbaz Sharif

All of that is true. However, Turkiye doesn't need this attention and state visits. Its already part of NATO. They are trying to woo India to pick a side and pull it towards western alliance. Turkiye for it's size has managed to keep both west and Russia interested while it's economy is tanking. It shows that turkiye's status is incredibly important in the region.

Not to mention quality of life is better.

 

[uppercut]

I am a Brit. I don't think this topic is about India vs Pakistan as a military power, maybe you have some issues you need to work out if you think it is. It's India vs Turkiye.

Thats per your passport. Otherwise any random Joe on the street would bracket you as a Indian - the very identity that you loath. Talk about Karma !!. You will actually be better off renaming yourself to a very Indian name like Suresh/Ramesh Kumar. Would be a great career move.

And speaking about thread topic ... this thread is also not about English/UK. But you couldn't resist the itch to troll.