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The 2016 U.S. Elections Thread

Laal

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At least a dozen Republicans and a handful of Democrats have expressed an interest in running for their party's 2016 presidential nomination.

So, this is what we have right now:

elections.jpg
 
Look forward to Bernie Sanders, a self-proclaimed socialist. His candidacy is far-fetched but he would definitely have some impact on the Democratic primaries. Should force the likes of Hillary Clinton to move more towards the left.
 
I am supporting Rand Paul.

Bernie Sanders would be my second pick.
 
Sanders has probably been convinced into running by the Democratic Party establishment, because Warren has said she won't run, and they need at least one candidate to the left of Hillary to create the illusion of a contest. Warren probably fancies her chances in four or eight years, and doesn't want the record of having not been able to win the nomination this time around.
 
Democrats are digging their own graves if they decide not to put up better candidates and expect hillary to win by just showing up. I hope someone like NY governor andrew cuomo runs and gives hillary a fair challenge. The republicans have some big names running so it will be more interesting on that side.
 
Hillary epitomizes everything that is wrong with America.

She's as status quo as they come.

A zionist, a corporate lackey, a warmonger.

I fear that she's gonna win, b/c sheeple think it's time for a woman POTUS. (qualified or NOT)

:facepalm:
 
Hillary epitomizes everything that is wrong with America.

She's as status quo as they come.

A zionist, a corporate lackey, a warmonger.

I fear that she's gonna win, b/c sheeple think it's time for a woman POTUS. (qualified or NOT)

:facepalm:

And the guy you are supporting is even worse.
 
I'm also a big fan of Rand Paul, who like his father, is straigh forward and honest politician, a rarilty. But don;t think he will win the Republican nomination. Too honest, and not a favorite of big lobbies with their special interest. Hillary is the worst candidate IMP, alongwith ugly fat guy of New jersey.
 
Bernie sanders is a proponent of welfare economics and such. It would be a great step moving forward for America. A European style social democracy would probably decrease poverty in the inner city areas etc. There was a Pew survey done a while back which showed that Millenials in America are less antagonistic towards socialism than Baby Boomers were.
 
Rand Paul is another nutter like his father as far as politics is concerned
 
Hahaha Santorum is running again? This I gotta see :))

another clown

he is pretty similar to our Jamaatis btw

had the misfortune of interviewing him once in the 2012 election primaries
 
The Republican side looks quite far-right, if you count Fiorina out. Would like to hear more from Christie and Bush, who're more center-right.
 
But I agree with others that Hillary's candidacy is nauseating. But I'm looking forward to Jim Webb (former senator from VA) if he runs. He could give a run for her money. Bernie's candidacy is too far-fetched.
 
Rand's economic policy is a no-go for me. It's straight up dangerous. Nonetheless, his foreign policy hits the nail on its head.
 
Have a feeling it will the worst US elections with lot of unwanted crap and more than average pathetic candidates.
 
If Rand is anything like his father, there is no way in hell he stands a chance due to his isolationist policy alone.
.
 
George Pataki, former gov. of NY, has thrown his hat in the ring for the Republican candidacy. A long, long shot.
 
The problem with US elections is that the campaign seems to go on forever. Citizens United means US democracy is now bought and sold to the highest bidder.

My only hope is that the Republicans are kept out of power. A dangerous, extremist party that makes every other centre-right party in the world appear like raging Marxists. They left not just the US but the world in a massive mess the last time they were in office. They are the party of the Zionists, neocons, big corporations and oil companies.

They have stooped no end to smear Obama with endless personal attacks and I hope the American people keep them out of power for a generation so they can finally come to their senses.
 
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker leads all of his potential Republican challengers in a new poll of Iowa primary voters, solidifying his claim as front-runner in the 2016 GOP presidential nomination.

Walker, who has not yet announced his campaign for president, is the first pick for 17 percent of likely GOP caucusgoers in Iowa, according to a new Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Politics poll.

The governor also boasts a positive image in the Hawkeye State, with two-thirds of likely caucusgoers viewing him favorably. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) and retired neurosurgeon Ben Carson, who have both declared their presidential candidacies, tied for second place with 10 percent each.

Walker said last week that he would announce his 2016 intentions in June after the Wisconsin budget is completed. The governor also suggested that he may sit out the Florida primary and let the Sunshine State's former Gov. Jeb Bush and its junior senator, Marco Rubio, duke it out in the expensive political market.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/31/scott-walker-iowa-poll_n_7479118.html
 
Honestly, the GOP needs to be split - any tea party candidate deemed acceptable to the Bible belt will never be acceptable to a moderate Republican from any other state. I vote Republican, but can see no candidate which will emerge as a consensus across the two republican fractions.

As for me, waiting for Chris Christie to enter the fray but he kinda burned his 'bridge' - in this case the GWB :P
 
Bernie Sanders is leading in both Iowa and New Hampshire in the Democratic race. Donald Trump and Ben Carson still out in front for the Republicans. Speaking of Ben Carson. Ben Carson doesn't have an energy policy so what does he do ? Goes to a coal baron and asks the billionaire what his policy should be.

Wow ! Its not like they're even hiding it. This is US politics in a nutshell - full of guys that've been bought and paid for by special interest groups and corporations and have no interest in making policies that'll actually benefit the American people. Why do you guys think these donors contribute to politicians' campaigns ? Its because they expect a return on their investment. These donors will contribute a $1 million because they'll end up with billions of dollars of tax breaks in return.

If Carson wants expertise on energy policy - you'd think he'd visit a scientist or industry expert right ? Wrong. He goes to a fossil fuel baron who'll donate to his campaign. This Pickens guy even admits he has an "open door to all presidential candidates" ! That he'll "educate them" on the energy issues. Like he doesn't have a financial interest in energy policy...

For the love of god Americans - please wake up and realise these politicians have no interest in governing on your behalf - the ONLY way to reclaim your democracy is to get the money OUT of politics. Thankfully there's groups like Wolf PAC who are campaigning for free and fair elections through State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.

Only Bernie Sanders is not bought and paid for and won't play the Washington game.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/256977-carson-gets-energy-advice-t-boone-pickens

Texas energy investor T. Boone Pickens has taken an interest in Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson, with both men sharing similar views on energy policy, aides say.

Carson, a retired neurosurgeon who has surged to second place among Republican presidential candidates in national polls, impressed the GOP mega-donor when they met in September 2014 in Pickens’s Dallas offices, according to a spokesman for the wealthy Texan.

But Pickens was not the only one to leave the meeting impressed. The energy investor has a fan in Carson and will have an influence on the energy policies the candidate eventually unveils. The Carson campaign is “still formulating [its] energy plan and speaking to different energy experts,” Carson communications director Doug Watts said in an email.

“We will be releasing more details in the future, but we are grateful that distinguished individuals like Mr. Pickens are willing to share their time and advice with us,” Watts said, adding that Carson respects Pickens for bringing "more sensibility to America's energy policy.”

Pickens, a major Republican donor, gave $100,000 to the super-PAC supporting former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. During the 2012 presidential campaign, he gave $1 million to the American Crossroads super-PAC founded by Republican operative Karl Rove.

But as NBC news first reported, the multimillionaire investor is now also investing in outsider candidate Carly Fiorina and has plans to support Carson.


Asked what drew the Texas oilman to Carson, Pickens spokesman Jay Rosser told The Hill that Pickens “believes Dr. Carson understands the threat that our continued dependence on OPEC oil means for our country going forward.”

Boone has an open door on pretty much every presidential candidate when it comes to a willingness to educate them on key energy issues,” Rosser added.
 
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Bernie Sanders is leading in both Iowa and New Hampshire in the Democratic race. Donald Trump and Ben Carson still out in front for the Republicans. Speaking of Ben Carson. Ben Carson doesn't have an energy policy so what does he do ? Goes to a coal baron and asks the billionaire what his policy should be.

Wow ! Its not like they're even hiding it. This is US politics in a nutshell - full of guys that've been bought and paid for by special interest groups and corporations and have no interest in making policies that'll actually benefit the American people. Why do you guys think these donors contribute to politicians' campaigns ? Its because they expect a return on their investment. These donors will contribute a $1 million because they'll end up with billions of dollars of tax breaks in return.

If Carson wants expertise on energy policy - you'd think he'd visit a scientist or industry expert right ? Wrong. He goes to a fossil fuel baron who'll donate to his campaign. This Pickens guy even admits he has an "open door to all presidential candidates" ! That he'll "educate them" on the energy issues. Like he doesn't have a financial interest in energy policy...

For the love of god Americans - please wake up and realise these politicians have no interest in governing on your behalf - the ONLY way to reclaim your democracy is to get the money OUT of politics. Thankfully there's groups like Wolf PAC who are campaigning for free and fair elections through State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.

Only Bernie Sanders is not bought and paid for and won't play the Washington game.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/256977-carson-gets-energy-advice-t-boone-pickens

Whats wrong with business lobbying with a political group? You think that such things dont happen in European countries, China, Russia, India? The only difference is that such things happen transparently open in America and 'below the table' in other countries. Every business has a right to protect its own self-interest and its onto the public to accept or reject a politician according to his political affiliations. Forget business, even international governments has its own lobby group in the capitol - Israel has one, China has one, Pakistan has one so has India, as do Non-profits like Planned Parenthood, Heritage Foundation, affiliated to political groups. Nothing new, this is part and parcel of American politics.

In my opinion, people like Sanders, Trump, Warren, Cruz are loose cannons - they will hold a country ransom just for the sake of their ideological beliefs (which in most cases are never practical). For instance, Sanders wants a Denmark like socialism in the US disregarding the fact that America's wealth was built on capitalist roots and most people here believe in working hard and uplifting themselves - not in 6 hour work days , free socialistic policies and trade unionism. Cruz is not above shutting down the Govt to uphold his religious conservative values. Elizabeth Warren hates Govt, period and Trump, well he works only for himself. If such people are ever elected, they will take US to the brink and polarize the whole country.

America needs practical people like Reagan who can work across the partisan politics and can take people of the whole country with himself.
 
Whats wrong with business lobbying with a political group? You think that such things dont happen in European countries, China, Russia, India?
Its not simply lobbying that's the issue, its the legalised bribery that is endemic in US politics, brought about by decisions like Citizens United allowing corporations and private interests to buy elections. The point I'm making is that these elections are not free and fair without proper regulation of campaign finance which you actually do get in European countries. Here in the UK there are strict rules on not only lobbying where MPs have to register their financial interests including remunerated employment outside Parliament but also donations above around £7,500 must be publicly declared.

During the 2012 election cycle, super PACs, tax-exempt nonprofit organizations and businesses spent more than $1 billion, including more than $300 million contributed by donors whose identities were never disclosed so we don't even know who is contributing to these campaigns ! In 2012, just 100 of the wealthiest people in America gave $339 million to super PACs - you don't think these donors are contributing merely out of the goodness of their heart. These guys are businessmen, they want a return on their investment and are in effect buying policy. Do you not think that's a sign of a democratic system that's broken ?

Don't take my word for it - what about Republican Senator Dale Schulz ? A long-time conservative who's served the party for 23 years but decided not to seek re-election because the Koch Brothers deemed him not conservative enough. He also criticises the money that is corrupting politics so this is an issue that unites both sides of the political divide - who the hell are these private wealthy donors to decide who is electorally acceptable and who isn't ?

Schultz announced his retirement from his career as a legislator as he faces a primary challenge from the right by Rep. Howard Marklein, a Republican from Spring Green who has already raised over $100,000 for the next election – and is backed by the Koch Brothers-funded Americans for Prosperity, who made it a priority to oust Sen. Schultz.

When you introduce a torrent – an ocean – of money into politics, all the elements are present to push towards more extremism in politics. And I think that sort of exploded with the decision in Citizens United,” said Schultz, who told me he had to raise $10,000 for his first Assembly race. “As a Republican, I have always thought business should have access to the public square. I never thought anybody should be able to buy the public square, and that’s really about where we’re at right now.”

Did you also know that lawmakers spend around HALF their time fundraising ? Instead of making laws that'll benefit the American people, they're begging for money from donors. In 2006, the top campaign spenders won 94% of House races so US elections aren't about a battle of ideas - its a battle between the elites, billionaires Sheldon Adelson, George Soros and the Koch Brothers. Come on man, you can't defend the indefensible - are we not describing a plutocracy here ?
 
[MENTION=138530]dildilpak[/MENTION]

Princeton University study: Public opinion has “near-zero” impact on U.S. law. - https://represent.us/action/theproblem-4/

The opinions of 90% of Americans have essentially no impact at all, public policy is dictated not by the strength of your convictions but by the MONEY. To paraphrase an old movie - "its ze money Lebowski !"

Explainer_prob4.jpg


In the last 5 years alone, the 200 most politically active companies in the US spent $5.8 billion influencing the government with lobbying and campaign contributions. Those same companies got $4.4 trillion in taxpayer support — earning a return of 750 times their investment.

Explainer_prob3.jpg


That's not to mention American elected officials spend 30-70% of their time in office fundraising for the next election. When they’re not fundraising, they have no choice but to make sure the laws they pass keep their major donors happy - or they won’t be able to run in the next election.

This is not a truly democratic election. The winner in 2016 will have spent torrents of money to reach the Oval Office, on the back of millions of dollars from corporations and businesses, probably having spent as much as a small nation's GDP to get there and then Americans wonder why their politicians never listen to their concerns and are only interested in serving the elites.
 
Sanders will be a disaster for the US, the reason why US is so powerful and has built the great empire civilisation has ever seen is because of its capitalistic roots that fuelled entrepreneurship and innovation and went on built and invent almost everything we use today. Its the same reason why Europe has been left so far behind despite have such a big head head start, social democratic policies of Europe has destroyed it.
 
Sanders will be a disaster for the US, the reason why US is so powerful and has built the great empire civilisation has ever seen is because of its capitalistic roots that fuelled entrepreneurship and innovation and went on built and invent almost everything we use today. Its the same reason why Europe has been left so far behind despite have such a big head head start, social democratic policies of Europe has destroyed it.

Yeah well said. Let Europeans enjoy their 6 hour workdays; we aint no freeloaders depending on the Govt for everything and happy with status quos. Equally we dont begrudge anybody their millions built due to their own hardwork - America is a highly individualized society which respects sucess and innovation.
 
^ no, america is a society governed by corporations, where the poor increasingly remain poor and the idea of hard work leading you to the top is fast becoming a myth.
 
^ no, america is a society governed by corporations, where the poor increasingly remain poor and the idea of hard work leading you to the top is fast becoming a myth.

The key to anybody's success is education and innovation. If the poor don't want to invest in education and want to live a life dependent on food-stamps while whining about lack of govt support, yeah sure the people who have worked hard to get an education are going to leave you behind.

The reason Europe can boast of success with their liberal socialistic schemes is because till now they have had a relatively homogeneous and increasingly shrinking population which is producing enough to meet their own needs - there has hardly been any increase in industrialization or innovation in Europe in the last few decades, barring Germany. Would be interesting to see the change in dynamics in European socialist politics and policies once a large scale migrant and diverse population is integrated in their society like US has. Already we are seeing scaling back of socialistic benefits in Scandinavian countries. Bernie Sanders doesnt probably realize there are more chances of Denmark becoming like US than US becoming another Denmark.
 
The reason Europe can boast of success with their liberal socialistic schemes is because till now they have had a relatively homogeneous and increasingly shrinking population which is producing enough to meet their own needs - there has hardly been any increase in industrialization or innovation in Europe in the last few decades, barring Germany. Would be interesting to see the change in dynamics in European socialist politics and policies once a large scale migrant and diverse population is integrated in their society like US has. Already we are seeing scaling back of socialistic benefits in Scandinavian countries. Bernie Sanders doesnt probably realize there are more chances of Denmark becoming like US than US becoming another Denmark.

That's a strange excuse considering Europe has managed to integrate a large number of migrants in the past 70 years, most of whom are poor and uneducated - as opposed to the US hiding brain drain under the guise of welcoming migrants, which they did to Europe after WWII . Many of the bigger european countries have more than 10% of people who are first, second or third gen migrants, including France (including 6 million muslims), UK (including 2 million Pakistanis) and Germany (including 5 million turks).

We will probably be alright with our immigration and the reason for that is exactly the social policies you are criticizing. We have a much greater social mobility and better education (and more equal) system than the US which, of course, favours the integration of immigrants.

All that is, of course, ignoring the fact that there is no sense in talking of Europe as a monolith. There is more difference between individual european countries than there is between US and some european countries.

You are calling countries like Denmark and other nords socialist when they are more liberal economically than the US. Yes, they have strong wellfare and taxation but that doesn't make a market free or not. Their economic policies understand the essence of capitalism better than America because you can't have a free market when the rich are free to buy government to legislate in their favour. Not only that, but in a country without a strong safety net, citizens are not provided with the incentive to take risks when a simple failure could lead them to destitution. Because, yes, success has as much to do with luck and grabbing the random opportunities as it has to with hard work, and that's easier in the countries you are calling socialist.

I think that this is an essential problem with american politics, conflating corporatism with capitallism and safety nets/support of small entrepreneurs with socialism. Socialism is the ownership of the means of production by the state, scandinavians couldn't be further from socialism. America, in a lot of ways, has an economy that is very anti-free market. There is a myriad of ununderstandable regulations destined to protect the bigger industries. A great example of that is the agriculture which is, in essence, a socialist agriculture whose profits go to private entities. Another is the automotive industry that benefits from heavy protectionism and regulation favoritism (just look at the history of public transport in the US and the way the auto companies destroyed it and lobbied for periurbanization).

The economies of northern europe are marked with what is called the hidden champions. These are smaller and middle companies than are world leaders in their segments. This, imo, is a much better way to both innovate and make wealth trickle down than the american model of megacorps and also the true measure of free market/success of capitalism (as the main challenge to a free market is its natural tendency to aggregate and become monopolies) but of course it's not as flashy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_champions

In short, please don't give a bad name to capitalism by conflating it with the american system of oligarchy. Thanks.
 
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^ no, america is a society governed by corporations, where the poor increasingly remain poor and the idea of hard work leading you to the top is fast becoming a myth.

No, the myth is of the rich getting rich and poor poorer, i already cracked open that myth in another thread.

Society as a whole all over the world is governed by corporations, which goes against the essence of capitalism, which created the US, but day by day US has been losing its capitalist charm that once built it. Ron Paul was probably the only politician that understood capitalism and economics in the country. Saying that corporations do not stop you from achieving success if you want it, they couldn't stop a nerd like Mark Zuckerberg or a hippie like Steve Jobs and against all the odds Elon Musk went on to build a car company in the 21st century.
 
[MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION] - Very well said.

No, the myth is of the rich getting rich and poor poorer, i already cracked open that myth in another thread.
The top 1% have got 95% of all income growth since 2009 whereas the incomes of the bottom 99% have risen by just 0.1%.

Even the IMF and World Bank, who are hardly Marxist revolutionaries, have said income inequality is a problem so how is it a myth ?

Put it this say, if income inequality WAS a myth, Bernie Sanders wouldn't be leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire right now.
 
[MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION] - Very well said.


The top 1% have got 95% of all income growth since 2009 whereas the incomes of the bottom 99% have risen by just 0.1%.

Even the IMF and World Bank, who are hardly Marxist revolutionaries, have said income inequality is a problem so how is it a myth ?

Put it this say, if income inequality WAS a myth, Bernie Sanders wouldn't be leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire right now.

Income equality totally depends on how you look at it, as explained before if the rich become richer due to there hard work and smartness and poor people get poorer due to laziness and ignorance, who do you blame?

If your not willing to put in an effort and achieve something then you will always see the rich as some kind of evil force, they all do and its these people that have a bad life not because the rich hate them or someone put them there BUT because there life situation has happened due to the consequences of the actions they took prior in there lives. People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Alan Sugar, Richard Branson etc. where at the same stage as many poor people, in fact probably even worse off BUT look where they are now. Like i said its the consequences of the actions you took earlier in your life that got to where you are today. Blaming the rich isn't going to change anything or make your life any better. What will is when you get off you @rse and get to work.
 
Income equality totally depends on how you look at it, as explained before if the rich become richer due to there hard work and smartness and poor people get poorer due to laziness and ignorance, who do you blame?

If your not willing to put in an effort and achieve something then you will always see the rich as some kind of evil force, they all do and its these people that have a bad life not because the rich hate them or someone put them there BUT because there life situation has happened due to the consequences of the actions they took prior in there lives. People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Alan Sugar, Richard Branson etc. where at the same stage as many poor people, in fact probably even worse off BUT look where they are now. Like i said its the consequences of the actions you took earlier in your life that got to where you are today. Blaming the rich isn't going to change anything or make your life any better. What will is when you get off you @rse and get to work.

In 2011 in the United States, a person earning between 30-40k a year was working 40 hours a week while the persons with individual incomes of 500k+ were working 49 hours a week. Is working 25 % more for 15 times the income really about laziness?

Also, I wonder how the fact that the US are the OCDE country with the lowest social mobility and the fact that households in the top 1% inherit447 times more money than the bottom 50% plays into your narrative of a meritocracy.

Instead of working one's ass off, one would be better advised to be born in the american oligarchy.
 
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By the way, the people you mention, while they worked very hard, also benefitted from their birth. For example, Bill Gates went to one or the best private schools in America, and the only one that had a computer at the time. If Bill Gates was born into a white trash family in rural Alabama, where would he be today? Maybe he'd have made it out of poverty through hard work and genius, maybe not. But sure as hell wouldnt be the richest man in the world.

It is conspicuous that most of the self made people you mention made their fortunes in the new sectors like IT. The reason for that is simply that the IT world didnt have their Fords and their Walmarts yet. Today, most new silicon valley entrepreneurs simply get bought out of their companies by the corporations you mentionned because they have the power to control congress and be anti-competitive. If you are familiar with the history of Microsoft, you'd know how many "hard workers working their **** off to reach self made wealth" it crushed into submission.
 
[MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION] - Very well said.


The top 1% have got 95% of all income growth since 2009 whereas the incomes of the bottom 99% have risen by just 0.1%.

Even the IMF and World Bank, who are hardly Marxist revolutionaries, have said income inequality is a problem so how is it a myth ?

Put it this say, if income inequality WAS a myth, Bernie Sanders wouldn't be leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire right now.

Hahahaa Iowa???? Last elections, if you were an American you would know that last elections Michelle Bachmann led Iowa. Trust me, those Iowians are not representatives of the whole country.
 
That's a strange excuse considering Europe has managed to integrate a large number of migrants in the past 70 years, most of whom are poor and uneducated - as opposed to the US hiding brain drain under the guise of welcoming migrants, which they did to Europe after WWII . Many of the bigger european countries have more than 10% of people who are first, second or third gen migrants, including France (including 6 million muslims), UK (including 2 million Pakistanis) and Germany (including 5 million turks).

We will probably be alright with our immigration and the reason for that is exactly the social policies you are criticizing. We have a much greater social mobility and better education (and more equal) system than the US which, of course, favours the integration of immigrants.

Yeah right, a greater social mobility and better education. Tell that to the large number of European Muslims who have joined ISIS inspite of generous socialistic measures. Tell that to the people from xenophobic countries like France, who have not integrated the Africans from the French colonies who continue to live in ghettos and are considered outsiders even after living in France for decades. Tell that to the Hungarians who construct barbed wire to keep out refugees. And lastly, tell that to the British Muslims who continue to demand Sharia even after availing those generous educational facilities. No thanks, we dont need such **** in America.



All that is, of course, ignoring the fact that there is no sense in talking of Europe as a monolith. There is more difference between individual european countries than there is between US and some european countries.

You are calling countries like Denmark and other nords socialist when they are more liberal economically than the US. Yes, they have strong wellfare and taxation but that doesn't make a market free or not. Their economic policies understand the essence of capitalism better than America because you can't have a free market when the rich are free to buy government to legislate in their favour. Not only that, but in a country without a strong safety net, citizens are not provided with the incentive to take risks when a simple failure could lead them to destitution. Because, yes, success has as much to do with luck and grabbing the random opportunities as it has to with hard work, and that's easier in the countries you are calling socialist.

I think that this is an essential problem with american politics, conflating corporatism with capitallism and safety nets/support of small entrepreneurs with socialism. Socialism is the ownership of the means of production by the state, scandinavians couldn't be further from socialism. America, in a lot of ways, has an economy that is very anti-free market. There is a myriad of ununderstandable regulations destined to protect the bigger industries. A great example of that is the agriculture which is, in essence, a socialist agriculture whose profits go to private entities. Another is the automotive industry that benefits from heavy protectionism and regulation favoritism (just look at the history of public transport in the US and the way the auto companies destroyed it and lobbied for periurbanization).

The economies of northern europe are marked with what is called the hidden champions. These are smaller and middle companies than are world leaders in their segments. This, imo, is a much better way to both innovate and make wealth trickle down than the american model of megacorps and also the true measure of free market/success of capitalism (as the main challenge to a free market is its natural tendency to aggregate and become monopolies) but of course it's not as flashy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_champions

In short, please don't give a bad name to capitalism by conflating it with the american system of oligarchy. Thanks.

Nice spiel, but give me example of ONE industry that Denmark has made innovative success in the last 50 years. If they were indeed as capable as you make it out to be, they would have been industry leaders- not been content in playing second fiddle to America in all matters of industry or politics. European countries as a whole are complacent, they will never match the intensity of Americans and Chinese in being market leaders. Sure, you have a small homogenous population and better income distribution, but as I said earlier all this will be exposed once migrants enter your country in large numbers and are willing to work 10 hour shifts at lower pay - it would then be fun to see how the complacent local population will deal with loss of jobs due to their inability to work harder.


I never claimed that the American system is perfect, but the complacent European economic systems and laidback lifestyles would never work for us. We are used to working hard 70 hour weeks and be industry leaders in whatever we do- we would never be content playing second fiddle to anybody. As I said earlier, Americans are individualistic - we see the role of our Govt in only providing overall policy guidance and international security matters, we don't like our own Govt interfering in our day-to-day life, even in matters of personal security.

I don't have any issues with the European system - it probably works the best for them. However my issues are with people like Sanders who are trying to idiotically impose theoretical, impractical socialistic ideals on the American society which is way different from the European one. It would never work.
 
Hahahaa Iowa???? Last elections, if you were an American you would know that last elections Michelle Bachmann led Iowa. Trust me, those Iowians are not representatives of the whole country.

Dildilpak still awaiting your response to the lobbying/money in US politics post - those numbers I posted in #26 and #27 suggest something different to what you were saying, that US corporate influence was no different to other countries which is simply not factual.

Regarding Iowa - I agree of course its not representative but that's the primary system which gives disproportionate coverage to these states. I do have my doubts as to whether Sanders can win a national election.

But to dismiss him entirely is absurd. Remember Clinton had a 34 point lead over Sanders in July. Now its just a 7 point lead according to the September polls. Explain how a candidate with supposedly no support jumps to 27% support in three nationwide polls, without media attention or super PACs. Then explain how Clinton goes from 60.8% support on May 10, 2015 to as low as 42% support in several polls by October, with billions and worldwide name recognition. 55% in one poll say they don't trust Hillary Clinton.

She is a beatable candidate, we've seen this show before. In 2008 she was attacked from the left and its happening all over again. OK say Sanders doesn't win - but he has shifted the debate to the left, look how Clinton now wants to prove her liberal credentials with talk of opposing TPP, college debt reforms and ending private prisons. The Sanders effect cannot be discounted !
 
Nice spiel, but give me example of ONE industry that Denmark has made innovative success in the last 50 years. If they were indeed as capable as you make it out to be, they would have been industry leaders- not been content in playing second fiddle to America in all matters of industry or politics. European countries as a whole are complacent, they will never match the intensity of Americans and Chinese in being market leaders. Sure, you have a small homogenous population and better income distribution, but as I said earlier all this will be exposed once migrants enter your country in large numbers and are willing to work 10 hour shifts at lower pay - it would then be fun to see how the complacent local population will deal with loss of jobs due to their inability to work harder.


I never claimed that the American system is perfect, but the complacent European economic systems and laidback lifestyles would never work for us. We are used to working hard 70 hour weeks and be industry leaders in whatever we do- we would never be content playing second fiddle to anybody. As I said earlier, Americans are individualistic - we see the role of our Govt in only providing overall policy guidance and international security matters, we don't like our own Govt interfering in our day-to-day life, even in matters of personal security.

I don't have any issues with the European system - it probably works the best for them. However my issues are with people like Sanders who are trying to idiotically impose theoretical, impractical socialistic ideals on the American society which is way different from the European one. It would never work.


Well, Denmark is a country of 5 million people so, obviously, they won't have the same overall impact. But, per capita, they are in a much better situation than the USA, both economically and in terms of intellectual research.

First of all, in the heritage index of economic freedom (with criteria that are pretty much a hyper-liberalist's wetdream), Denmark has a score of 76.3, compared to 76.2 for the US. Just to get that out the way.

After that, as far as danish industry is concerned, here is a paper that shows how dynamic and innovative it is. Also, it has a much higher penetration per capita in foreign markets than rigid american megacorps.

http://www.dti.dk/_/media/54497_The Hidden Champions - The Danish Industrial Motor of Growth.pdf

In terms of raw exports, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and Sweden all have more per capita $ exports than the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports_per_capita)

But, if what you are interested in is ''internet innovation'', most of the current internet innovation comes from the US. The world wide web was given to US by the CERN scientists, technologies such as adsl vectoring and fiber were spearheaded by Alcatel-Lucent and Huawei (not in the US). If you are talking about start-ups then Skype, Spotify, Deezer, Dailymotion,... are all european.

The thing is that, in your everyday life, you are probably surrounded by european companies that are industry leaders in their segment but you don't know about them simply because, to the average joe, the most they know about economy is the auto companies and the big tech companies like google and co.

France has some big multinationals that own a lot of things that surround us. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Vivendi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinci_SA
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LVMH_-_Moët_Hennessy_Louis_Vuitton
They are also world leaders in anything to do with nuclear (Areva EPR are basically the best in the business and experiments like ITER are happening in France).

Then of course you have the german hidden champions who are leading in their respective fields. LED diods for car companies may not be as fancy as SpaceX but it's just as much innovation. Here is a list for 2015: http://www.top100.de/die-top-100/top-innovatoren-2015/
You are probably surrounded by stuff from these german ''hidden'' companies from the ruhr area.

Don't get me wrong, the US economy is stronger than a lot of european ones but, if you look at the strong liberal economies (the ruhr+bavaria area, the randstad area, the flemish diamond, london, the nords, Estonia and bulgaria for start-ups), they are some of the main motors of the worldwide economy and innovation and I don't think that there is any non-deluded US economist who doesn't look up to them with envy.
 
In 2011 in the United States, a person earning between 30-40k a year was working 40 hours a week while the persons with individual incomes of 500k+ were working 49 hours a week. Is working 25 % more for 15 times the income really about laziness?

Also, I wonder how the fact that the US are the OCDE country with the lowest social mobility and the fact that households in the top 1% inherit447 times more money than the bottom 50% plays into your narrative of a meritocracy.

Instead of working one's ass off, one would be better advised to be born in the american oligarchy.

The answer to your post is basic common sense, you can not count hours for everyone in the same way because people work differently. what is an hour of work worth when 30 minutes of that is spent on facebook or instagram, then 20 minutes of daydreaming and only 10 minutes of actual work. One of the major enemies of success is procrastinating, smart people can get more work done in 10 hours then a worker with a poor mindset can do in 50 hours. So the answer to your question is YES its laziness of those people.

Blaming the rich for your empty bank accounts wont do you any good and has never changed any ones situation, in fact it will only make you more and more worse and arrogant each passing day. The key to wealth or poverty is the mindset, change that and your life will change.


By the way, the people you mention, while they worked very hard, also benefitted from their birth. For example, Bill Gates went to one or the best private schools in America, and the only one that had a computer at the time. If Bill Gates was born into a white trash family in rural Alabama, where would he be today? Maybe he'd have made it out of poverty through hard work and genius, maybe not. But sure as hell wouldnt be the richest man in the world.

It is conspicuous that most of the self made people you mention made their fortunes in the new sectors like IT. The reason for that is simply that the IT world didnt have their Fords and their Walmarts yet. Today, most new silicon valley entrepreneurs simply get bought out of their companies by the corporations you mentionned because they have the power to control congress and be anti-competitive. If you are familiar with the history of Microsoft, you'd know how many "hard workers working their **** off to reach self made wealth" it crushed into submission.


No, they didnt, Bill Gates despite going to good schools was a failure, did bad in exams. The second part your not making any sense, because Steve Jobs was poor who would walk 5 miles to feed himself everyday. There are numerous cases of self made people who were born poor, seems like you have been living under the rock or been brainwashed by some socialist fools.

In your last part you are hilarious now. Didn't those two huge companies you mentioned begin by nobodies with no money. Secondly if companies get bought out its because the owners willing sold it, its a simple transaction. You really want congress now to control people not to sell things, what is this DRUGS? or are you just a jealous brat that you didn't make something and spent your whole life complaining.
 
The answer to your post is basic common sense, you can not count hours for everyone in the same way because people work differently. what is an hour of work worth when 30 minutes of that is spent on facebook or instagram, then 20 minutes of daydreaming and only 10 minutes of actual work. One of the major enemies of success is procrastinating, smart people can get more work done in 10 hours then a worker with a poor mindset can do in 50 hours. So the answer to your question is YES its laziness of those people.

It's funny that you made fun of ''the six hour workday'' and now you are trying to pretend less is actually more. You can't have it both ways, either the ''socialist six hour workday'' is more productive or it's the 40 hours that americans work to earn 30k.

Blaming the rich for your empty bank accounts wont do you any good and has never changed any ones situation, in fact it will only make you more and more worse and arrogant each passing day. The key to wealth or poverty is the mindset, change that and your life will change.

It's not about blaming anyone, it's a simple reality that the american society is a society with low social mobility where birth is a bigger virtue than hard work. There is definitely a low amount of self-made people but, more than hard work, it's about opportunity and luck. It's ingrained in the ''temporarily embarassed milionaire'' mentality of americans to admit none of these facts because it makes self-flagellation easier.

No, they didnt, Bill Gates despite going to good schools was a failure, did bad in exams. The second part your not making any sense, because Steve Jobs was poor who would walk 5 miles to feed himself everyday. There are numerous cases of self made people who were born poor, seems like you have been living under the rock or been brainwashed by some socialist fools.

He may or may not have done well at school, it doesn't change anything. Good schools do give better SAT results and university outcomes but, more important than that are the ressources and networking opportunities they give. The computer that was at lakeside was Gates' introduction to programming and he wrote his first code on it. You can't pretend that none of that had anything to do with his success. Sure, he is a genius who worked very hard and there are dozens of rich kids who had the same opportunities and ''all'' they did from them is stagnate in the 1% (since wealth breeds wealth and america has low social mobility, it's rare for 1 percenters to be ejected from the 1%, even if they are dumb and lazy), he took his opportunities with both hands and rose far above his station at birth. But that doesn't change the fact that he is where he is today thanks to being born rich.

In your last part you are hilarious now. Didn't those two huge companies you mentioned begin by nobodies with no money. Secondly if companies get bought out its because the owners willing sold it, its a simple transaction. You really want congress now to control people not to sell things, what is this DRUGS? or are you just a jealous brat that you didn't make something and spent your whole life complaining.

The point I am making is that they managed to make huge companies from nothing because IT was a new sector with lower entry level investment. You can't do that today because agregation of wealth is the nature of the american market. There are roughly a dozen super-corporations (like, famously, unilever) who are responsible for more than a fourth of the GDP. The government can definitely influence that, there are a lot of ways to favour SME over bigger corporations since SME are universally better for innovation and competition. One of the methods used in other capitalist countries is a strong safety nets which makes people more willing to take a chance.
 
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And, yes, people like Larry Ellison are example of poorer backgrounds rising in the social hierarchy. But they are a minority since less than 40% of america's 1000 richest people come from a middle class background. And among the remaining 60%, yes, there are people like Bill Gates and Zuckerberg who were born in the 1% but have become richer than their parents ever were thanks to the opportunities afforded from being born in the 1%, but there are just as many people like the Waltons, Donald Trump and the Kochs who inherited a significant portion of their wealth. And this is the reason you can't peddle a myth of meritocracy to justify income inequality because, by definition, income equality goes with low social mobility and makes it so that being born rich is far more important than being smart or being hard working.

2.jpg


You'll find examples of self-made rich people everywhere in the world, including Pakistan, Russia or Brazil. The fact of the matter is that, if these countries are not meritocracies, then neither are the USA.
 
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[MENTION=130076]PetroDollars[/MENTION] once again you're blaming the poor for being poor.

Here's one idea to lift people out of poverty - how about these damn corporations who are raking in BILLIONS in profits each year and are avoiding billions of dollars of taxes actually pay their workers a decent living wage ? That way you don't need to spend as much on welfare, food stamps etc and can actually SAVE taxpayer money.

Millions of Americans are stuck in in-work poverty - many are working two or three jobs just to put food on the table, pay their bills and put their kids through school. The same is happening in the UK, infact here the majority of people in poverty are actually WORKING. These people are EARNING their poverty not living on welfare. And even if you WANTED to live on welfare - which is a tiny minority of people which right-wingers like yourself always want to make out as representative - its STILL not enough to make a living.

As far as these generous welfare programs that Democrats supposedly want - the US spends LESS on social programs (16.2% of GDP) than similarly developed countries (21.3% GDP), has a relative poverty rate 1.8 times higher than those peer nations, and has a child poverty rate more than twice as high.

Conservatives always repeat their talking points and cliches about "scroungers on welfare" but never actually use facts and evidence to support their statements because it usually disproves their fallacious, poor-bashing arguments.
 
My answers in RED

It's funny that you made fun of ''the six hour workday'' and now you are trying to pretend less is actually more. You can't have it both ways, either the ''socialist six hour workday'' is more productive or it's the 40 hours that americans work to earn 30k.

No one said 'less is more'. Its about productivity, i dont understand why that is so hard for you to understand. Humans are not robots, they work differently, have different mindsets and intelligence, counting productivity based on hours for the whole population is absurd.


It's not about blaming anyone, it's a simple reality that the american society is a society with low social mobility where birth is a bigger virtue than hard work. There is definitely a low amount of self-made people but, more than hard work, it's about opportunity and luck. It's ingrained in the ''temporarily embarassed milionaire'' mentality of americans to admit none of these facts because it makes self-flagellation easier.

NO, the reality is anyone can change themselves if they wanted, but blaming the rich for being poor has never got anyone no where.

..and LUCK, are you serious? this is something 12 year old kids believe in. Like i mentioned before, you situation today is due to the consequences of the actions you took earlier in your life. There is no luck to it.


He may or may not have done well at school, it doesn't change anything. Good schools do give better SAT results and university outcomes but, more important than that are the ressources and networking opportunities they give. The computer that was at lakeside was Gates' introduction to programming and he wrote his first code on it. You can't pretend that none of that had anything to do with his success. Sure, he is a genius who worked very hard and there are dozens of rich kids who had the same opportunities and ''all'' they did from them is stagnate in the 1% (since wealth breeds wealth and america has low social mobility, it's rare for 1 percenters to be ejected from the 1%, even if they are dumb and lazy), he took his opportunities with both hands and rose far above his station at birth. But that doesn't change the fact that he is where he is today thanks to being born rich.

You are now dragging the discussion on one person by bringing excuse after excuse, the point was anyone could achieve success if they wanted to, bill gates isn't the only selfmade man, there are thousands and thousands of people who went from rags to riches.

The point I am making is that they managed to make huge companies from nothing because IT was a new sector with lower entry level investment. You can't do that today because agregation of wealth is the nature of the american market. There are roughly a dozen super-corporations (like, famously, unilever) who are responsible for more than a fourth of the GDP. The government can definitely influence that, there are a lot of ways to favour SME over bigger corporations since SME are universally better for innovation and competition. One of the methods used in other capitalist countries is a strong safety nets which makes people more willing to take a chance.

:))) :))) :)))

Have you heard of the word COMPETITION?

This is not about aggregation of wealth, its simply that there is more competition and if it wasn't for competition we wouldn't even have half the things we have on this planet.

Your excuses are now turning into whines.

And, yes, people like Larry Ellison are example of poorer backgrounds rising in the social hierarchy. But they are a minority since less than 40% of america's 1000 richest people come from a middle class background. And among the remaining 60%, yes, there are people like Bill Gates and Zuckerberg who were born in the 1% but have become richer than their parents ever were thanks to the opportunities afforded from being born in the 1%, but there are just as many people like the Waltons, Donald Trump and the Kochs who inherited a significant portion of their wealth. And this is the reason you can't peddle a myth of meritocracy to justify income inequality because, by definition, income equality goes with low social mobility and makes it so that being born rich is far more important than being smart or being hard working.

2.jpg


You'll find examples of self-made rich people everywhere in the world, including Pakistan, Russia or Brazil. The fact of the matter is that, if these countries are not meritocracies, then neither are the USA.

Zukerberg was not from a rich family, yes he got in to Harvard but FB was built by him from scratch from hardly big money.

Like i said, its about intelligence and your mindset, almost all people who inherit money or win the lottery end up going bankrupt which explains how bs the whole income equality rubbish is.

Like i've mentioned before, its about your ambition and intelligence, if you want to go up and become successful, there is no one who can stop you. People who sit at home, do nothing and blame the rich will always remain poor.

Yes pakistan might have some self made rich people, Malik Riaz? and others BUT how many of them are there? probably enough to count on your fingers, whereas US is literately filled with them in every town and every corner.
 
[MENTION=130076]PetroDollars[/MENTION] once again you're blaming the poor for being poor.

Here's one idea to lift people out of poverty - how about these damn corporations who are raking in BILLIONS in profits each year and are avoiding billions of dollars of taxes actually pay their workers a decent living wage ? That way you don't need to spend as much on welfare, food stamps etc and can actually SAVE taxpayer money.

Millions of Americans are stuck in in-work poverty - many are working two or three jobs just to put food on the table, pay their bills and put their kids through school. The same is happening in the UK, infact here the majority of people in poverty are actually WORKING. These people are EARNING their poverty not living on welfare. And even if you WANTED to live on welfare - which is a tiny minority of people which right-wingers like yourself always want to make out as representative - its STILL not enough to make a living.

As far as these generous welfare programs that Democrats supposedly want - the US spends LESS on social programs (16.2% of GDP) than similarly developed countries (21.3% GDP), has a relative poverty rate 1.8 times higher than those peer nations, and has a child poverty rate more than twice as high.

Conservatives always repeat their talking points and cliches about "scroungers on welfare" but never actually use facts and evidence to support their statements because it usually disproves their fallacious, poor-bashing arguments.

Well the people who do pay good wages get bad press and you probably hate them more than those that pay minimum wages.
 
Well the people who do pay good wages get bad press and you probably hate them more than those that pay minimum wages.

Lol why would companies who pay a living wage get a bad press ? There are some living wage employers out there including Barclays Bank - so I give major credit to them. But other big corporations who have more than enough resources to pay a living wage do not.

http://www.livingwage.org.uk/employers
 
Zukerberg was not from a rich family, yes he got in to Harvard but FB was built by him from scratch from hardly big money. Like i said, its about intelligence and your mindset, almost all people who inherit money or win the lottery end up going bankrupt which explains how bs the whole income equality rubbish is. Like i've mentioned before, its about your ambition and intelligence, if you want to go up and become successful, there is no one who can stop you. People who sit at home, do nothing and blame the rich will always remain poor.

"Almost all people who inherit their wealth end up going bankrupt'' Total and utter BS. Don't even know how you can say that with a straight face.

And you're wrong about Zuk, he was definitely a part of the 1% and went to private schools. Like I said before, He doesn't come from super-wealth like most of the people in Forbes top 1000 but he does come from a privileged background.

Ideas have nothing to do with being ambitious or not. A lot of rich people who earned their wealth (including Gates and Buffett) do recognize everything that is wrong with the system. Me arguing against the plutocracy doesn't mean that I don't work hard and you acting like you are a temporarily embarassed millionaire on an internet forum won't make you an actual millionaire.
Yes pakistan might have some self made rich people, Malik Riaz? and others BUT how many of them are there? probably enough to count on your fingers, whereas US is literately filled with them in every town and every corner.

That's just perception bias based on your pre-existing ideas that the US are a meritocracy and Pakistan is not. The fact that both Pakistan and US have the same social mobility means that both countries have the same amount of self-made 0.1% percent upper echelon. Part of the reason is also that a lot of americans who inherited their wealth like to pretend they are self made because that's a point of pride while, in Pakistan, being ''old money'' is a bigger point of pride. When people like Donald Trump and the Kochs pretend themselves to be self made, you know the label has no meaning.
 
By the way, next time, don't be so lazy and make proper quotes because, otherwise, the person you are talking to has to individually copy paste each part of your post from the thread menu. I won't bother to do that for your first post, if you want to have a proper discussion on it, you can quote me in a new post. Thanks for being more considerate in the future.
 
"Almost all people who inherit their wealth end up going bankrupt'' Total and utter BS. Don't even know how you can say that with a straight face.

And you're wrong about Zuk, he was definitely a part of the 1% and went to private schools. Like I said before, He doesn't come from super-wealth like most of the people in Forbes top 1000 but he does come from a privileged background.

Ideas have nothing to do with being ambitious or not. A lot of rich people who earned their wealth (including Gates and Buffett) do recognize everything that is wrong with the system. Me arguing against the plutocracy doesn't mean that I don't work hard and you acting like you are a temporarily embarassed millionaire on an internet forum won't make you an actual millionaire.


That's just perception bias based on your pre-existing ideas that the US are a meritocracy and Pakistan is not. The fact that both Pakistan and US have the same social mobility means that both countries have the same amount of self-made 0.1% percent upper echelon. Part of the reason is also that a lot of americans who inherited their wealth like to pretend they are self made because that's a point of pride while, in Pakistan, being ''old money'' is a bigger point of pride. When people like Donald Trump and the Kochs pretend themselves to be self made, you know the label has no meaning.

Do you even know what you are saying, you seem to be getting more and more confused, make your mind up is Zuk 'definitely' part of the 1% or does he just come from a privileged background. You seem to have your knickers in a twist.

...and no, people inheriting millions and going bankrupt is not BS, its a FACT. There are numerous stories of people winning the lottery and ending up broke after a few years.

..and just to straighten out the facts, i am a millionaire and a self made one. I worked hard and took the opportunities to get where i am now, had i been complaining and crying about the rich i would have never achieved anything and be in the same place as you are.

Lastly, everyone knows Trump is not self made, stop bringing absurd theories in here, Americans have more successful and innovative people than other other country, only an idiot will argue against this, everything from cars, roads, ships, aeroplanes, computers, internet, mobiles, modern civil engineering, etc. was given to the world by american entrepreneurs, how does social mobility explain that? therefore everything you said is BS and utter cr@p.
 
Do you even know what you are saying, you seem to be getting more and more confused, make your mind up is Zuk 'definitely' part of the 1% or does he just come from a privileged background. You seem to have your knickers in a twist.

...and no, people inheriting millions and going bankrupt is not BS, its a FACT. There are numerous stories of people winning the lottery and ending up broke after a few years.

..and just to straighten out the facts, i am a millionaire and a self made one. I worked hard and took the opportunities to get where i am now, had i been complaining and crying about the rich i would have never achieved anything and be in the same place as you are.

Lastly, everyone knows Trump is not self made, stop bringing absurd theories in here, Americans have more successful and innovative people than other other country, only an idiot will argue against this, everything from cars, roads, ships, aeroplanes, computers, internet, mobiles, modern civil engineering, etc. was given to the world by american entrepreneurs, how does social mobility explain that? therefore everything you said is BS and utter cr@p.

The 1% is not being a billionaire, you are probably in that income bracket if both your parents are medical doctors who have paid off their student debts and loan on their house. There is just as much difference between the 0.1% and the 1% as there is between the 1% and the rest. That's why I categorized Zuckerberg into ''privileged but worked for what he has''.

You can't compare lottery or sports winning with inheritances. Like I said, the USA have low social mobility which means that people with big inheritances almost never lose them. But people who win the lottery or big NFL stars do lose their money very often. Two completely different sets of people.

Again, you don't really know anything about me or my work habits, you just make ad hominem assumptions based on my ideas. There are both poor and rich people who have a lot of biases about what it takes to be rich the same way there are a lot of poor and rich people who are realist about the situation. Individual success stories, sampling biases and personal achievement fallacies like illusory superiority don't change that. There are a lot of rich people who think like me and there are a lot of poor people who think like me, the same way the immense majority of the people who believe in conservative myths like the self-made man and the meritocracy are not rich. It is abundantly clear not everyone in the world makes up their believes based on self-serving ideas

As for your last point, you are clearly overestimating american contribution to current advancements. It's significant but not anymore significant than the relative contribution of Europe and north eastern Asia. Your point also hinges on the idea that people who inherited their position in american society can't be motors of innovation. The 1% of 300 million people is still 3 million people, you are bound to have competent people among them. Everyone knows that Donald Trump is not a self made man and yet you perpetuate the myth that American billionaire are self made men when, like I mentionned above, 60% of the people in the Forbes top1000 are one percenters.
 
I notice the fact that you mentionned ''you took the opportunities and worked hard to be where you are today''. I think that this is an important point because it definitely takes a lot of hard work to be a self-made man, which is the reason why most rich people are not self-made men. It doesn't take above average hard work to stay in one's parents' income bracket, whichever it may be, but it takes hard work to rise above it. So, from this we can deduce that the fact that you had to work hard for what you have means that you are not living in a meritocracy. The second important word is opportunities. Assuming you really are a self-made man, I want you to look back on all the opportunities that you had to grab. Surely you have to recognize that timing and luck had to play a part in both getting these opportunities and grabbing them? And there may have been people just as hard working as you who failed to get the right timing? That's the whole point I am making. It takes so much hard work and opportunities (many of them random) to be a self made billionaire that this occurrence is very rare, while it takes a lot of laziness and bad luck to be born a billionaire and lose everything which is why the occurrence is again very rare. This is what a society that is not a meritocracy looks like and that is why Pakistan and the USA are the same from the perspective of social mobility.

If there are two groups of athletes, one with an average 100m time of 10s and another with another average IQ of 14s, you are bound to find a cohort in the second population that has an average of 10s and you are bound to find individuals among those who have go down to 9.5s, higher than say 80% of the people in the first cohort. But those people will only be 99.99% of the second cohort. If a random person from the second cohort is first in race with the whole cohort, it makes them exceptional. But that's the thing, to be above average in the first cohort they have to be exceptional in the second cohort.

It's the same way with being a self-made person who made it in the US. Just to compete in terms of achievements with people who are in every way less talented than you, you had to be exceptional in the overall population. While, in a true meritocracy, being an exceptional individual, you would now have far more achievements than you have now. No matter how high you rise, you are making up for the deficit that you had at the start. That goes against the very definition of a meritocracy. Just because there are some self-made successful people doesn't make a country a meritocracy, it's social mobility that does because, by definition, the distribution of talents across social classes would be random in a meritocracy and thus there would be no reason for a person born in the upper echelon to be more likely to stay there.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How pathetic for <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump">@realdonaldtrump</a> to criticize the president for 9/11. We were attacked & my brother kept us safe.</p>— Jeb Bush (@JebBush) <a href="https://twitter.com/JebBush/status/655098096649707520">October 16, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

...But he didn't keep you safe. Despite ALL these warnings:

• January 20-September 10, 2001: President Bush Briefed on Al-Qaeda over 40 Times
• February 6, 2001: White House Told of New Rise in Terrorist Threats
• April 19-20, 2001: President Bush Warned ‘Bin Laden Planning Multiple Operations’
• May 2-3, 2001: President Bush Told Bin Laden’s Public Comments Suggest New Attack
• May 23, 2001: White House Told Al-Qaeda May Stage Hijacking or Storm Embassy
• May 25-26, 2001: President Bush Is Told Bin Laden May Be Hinting about New Attack
• May 25-26, 2001: President Bush Is Told Bin Laden May Be Hinting about New Attack
• June 23, 2001: White House Warned ‘Bin Laden Attacks May Be Imminent’
• June 25, 2001: White House Warned Multiple Attacks Are Expected within Days
• June 30, 2001: White House Warned ‘Bin Laden Planning High-Profile Attacks’
• July 2, 2001: Senior US Officials Warned Planning for Al-Qaeda Attacks Is Continuing
• July 13, 2001: White House Is Warned Al-Qaeda Attack Plans Are Delayed but Not Abandoned

And of course the August 6th memo - that Bin Laden was determined to attack inside the US. Then launching two wars that killed thousands of Americans. Yeah he kept people real safe Jeb.

Also there were 13 embassy attacks under Bush. 0 investigations.

1 embassy attack under President Obama. 13 investigations.

But it's not political right ?
 
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Jeb is a train wreck. He's clinging on to the last bits.
 
I hope Americans Feel the Bern and have another good president in 2016.

Vote for Bernie Sanders!
 
Joe Biden announced that he's not running for President. One source said if he did run, he'd have "kicked Hillary's ass."
 
Once this Benghazi committee's over, are we gonna have the 12 hour committee with Bush and Cheney being forced to explain why they invaded a country on a false pretence and why 3,000 Americans died on their watch despite being warned multiple times that Al Qaeda were planning an attack ?

No, guess not.
 
So can Donald Trump pull off the impossible? One thing i have realized, never underestimate the stupidity of the Americans.
 
Ben Carson lying once again, claiming he was offered a full scholarship to West Point in his book (that coincidentally he's spending a lot of this campaign promoting) when A) there's no such thing as a "full scholarship" to West Point and B) West Point has no records of Carson ever applying !

Now Carson admits he NEVER applied in the first place ! This comes as Carson is promoting a BS story about his life going from an angry young man with a rough upbringing to his transformation through finding Jesus becoming a neurosurgeon and GOP presidential frontrunner.

Carson claims in his book to have punched a seventh-grade classmate in the head while holding a lock, and attempted to stab a classmate named “Bob” in ninth grade, but CNN spoke to nine people who knew him at the time — two of whom lived next door to the Carsons and knew young Ben well — and not a single one of them could corroborate his stories ! He also claimed he was once victim of gun violence, that he was held up at Popeyes but again no evidence of that ever occurring !

He is a serial liar and its CRAZY how he ever was a neurosurgeon. He is SO CONVENIENT for the Republicans as here's a story about an angry violent black guy who found Jesus (big plus with the religious right), pulled himself up by "the bootstraps" as they love to say, is willing to crap on his fellow black people that their struggles are their own fault and will bow his head to his corporate establishment paymasters. The definition of Uncle Tom.

Not to mention his claim that "evolution was the WORK OF THE DEVIL" and his insane "Muslims should not be President" comment. For further entertainment - go read up on his comments about the Egyptian Pyramids...
 
It's unbelievable to think that this guy is a doctor let alone the world class neurosurgeon that he is.
 
Ben Carson lying once again, claiming he was offered a full scholarship to West Point in his book (that coincidentally he's spending a lot of this campaign promoting) when A) there's no such thing as a "full scholarship" to West Point and B) West Point has no records of Carson ever applying !

No , he didn't lie.He never admitted to applying at West Point in the first place.Learn to research and look at both sides of the coin instead of spewing from left wing hit pieces.The rest of your post can be refuted as well.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/960/n...st-point-its-ben-shapiro#.Vj4RrkdDBeM.twitter
 
No , he didn't lie.He never admitted to applying at West Point in the first place.Learn to research and look at both sides of the coin instead of spewing from left wing hit pieces.The rest of your post can be refuted as well.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/960/n...st-point-its-ben-shapiro#.Vj4RrkdDBeM.twitter

LOL so you refute a "left wing hit piece" with a link from a right wing hit piece. What logic is this ?

Firstly CNN isn't a Marxist Revolutionary news station. They INTERVIEWED Carson's classmates, neighbours and friends and none of them could collborate any of his stories about being involved in a stabbing or punching someone with a lock. In his autobiography, Carson wrote that as a teen, he tried to stab a friend named Bob in the stomach with a knife, but the boy's belt buckle blocked the knife (which sounds ludicrous in itself, how freakin' big can the belt buckle be ?).

On Thursday when pressed by reporters about the incident and also in an interview with Fox News, Carson said that Bob's name, along with some other names in the autobiography, were pseudonyms that he used to protect the privacy of the people he was writing about.

He described Bob in the book as a friend and classmate. BUT in the Fox News interview and on CNN, Carson said the boy was a "close relative" ! Which one is it Ben or is this another one of his fireplace tales ?!

Secondly, Politico stand by their story. Whilst Carson didn't directly say he had applied, it was an implication of the claim he was making several times about receiving a full scholarship even though there is NO such thing ! West Point have no record of ANY offer ! Yes Politico should have made that clearer but it doesn't detract from the fact Carson is a liar. According to Politico Ben Carson has repeatedly claimed he was offered a full scholarship from West Point. He conveys the story in at least two other books, “You Have a Brain” and “Take the Risk.” Carson repeated his West Point claim as recently as Aug. 13, when he was taking Facebook questions at an event.

Thirdly, Carson claimed he was offered a West Point scholarship over dinner with General Westmoreland in Detroit. But US Army records which detail Westmoreland's schedule that day show the General wasn't even in the city on the day Carson claimed he met him !

And finally, there's nothing to refute. The man you want to defend said on the record Muslims shouldn't be President despite the Constitution that right-wingers claim to love that there shall be no religious test for those seeking office and that Evolution is the work of the 'adversary'. Neither does he believe the Big Bang Theory. These are words coming out of HIS mouth.
 
Proof positive that when someone offers you something, get it in writing. Just imagine if Noora had promised that bullet train between Lodhran and Mian Chanu on a Rs. 100 stamp paper.
 
Also Politico are NOT left wing either. Ben Carson laughably went on CNN and claimed the media never vetted Obama like they are with him. Is he joking ? Long form birth certificates anyone ?!

Right wingers please address the substance instead of attacking the messengers.
 
Ben Carson lying once again, claiming he was offered a full scholarship to West Point in his book (that coincidentally he's spending a lot of this campaign promoting) when A) there's no such thing as a "full scholarship" to West Point and B) West Point has no records of Carson ever applying !

Now Carson admits he NEVER applied in the first place ! This comes as Carson is promoting a BS story about his life going from an angry young man with a rough upbringing to his transformation through finding Jesus becoming a neurosurgeon and GOP presidential frontrunner.

Carson claims in his book to have punched a seventh-grade classmate in the head while holding a lock, and attempted to stab a classmate named “Bob” in ninth grade, but CNN spoke to nine people who knew him at the time — two of whom lived next door to the Carsons and knew young Ben well — and not a single one of them could corroborate his stories ! He also claimed he was once victim of gun violence, that he was held up at Popeyes but again no evidence of that ever occurring !

He is a serial liar and its CRAZY how he ever was a neurosurgeon. He is SO CONVENIENT for the Republicans as here's a story about an angry violent black guy who found Jesus (big plus with the religious right), pulled himself up by "the bootstraps" as they love to say, is willing to crap on his fellow black people that their struggles are their own fault and will bow his head to his corporate establishment paymasters. The definition of Uncle Tom.

Not to mention his claim that "evolution was the WORK OF THE DEVIL" and his insane "Muslims should not be President" comment. For further entertainment - go read up on his comments about the Egyptian Pyramids...


Well 99% of Pakistan will agree with him here, are you going to call all Pakistanis liers now?
 
Well 99% of Pakistan will agree with him here, are you going to call all Pakistanis liers now?

Please prove 99% of Pakistanis believe evolution is the work of the devil. Do you believe it is the work of the devil despite all the scientific evidence (role of evolution in antibiotic resistance, the common ancestry between species proven by genetic and anatomical similiarities) or is the person you and [MENTION=139319]Thomaskutty[/MENTION] (who's mysteriously disappeared from this thread) want to defend in Ben Carson right ?

Bear in mind this is the same Ben Carson who believes the Holocaust wouldn't happened and 6 million Jews wouldn't have died if the Nazis didn't do gun control, that the US tax system should be based on the Biblical system of tithes and dismissed the Black Lives Matter movement as "creating strife" despite fact that black Americans are more than twice as likely to be unarmed when killed by US cops. He also lied about vaccinations in the debate in an act of breathtaking irresponsibility from a NEUROSURGEON NO LESS no less claiming "There are a "multitude" of vaccines that do not prevent deadly and crippling diseases" - but ALL childhood vaccines prevent deadly/crippling diseases - how can he say that knowing some parents would hear that and NOT vaccinate their kids ?!

And by the way Carson has been caught lying about his past today AGAIN. He claimed he sheltered his white classmates at school during the 1968 race riots - but he couldn't name any of them and NONE of the half-dozen former classmates of Carson or his high school physics teacher could recall white students hiding from rioting in the biology lab like Carson claimed.

Also why would Carson do a book tour in the middle of a Presidential campaign ? Imagine the uproar in 2007 if Barack Obama had done such a thing.Does he want to be President or make a quick buck and boost his public profile ?

Please answer these points and not to do disappearing act like Thomaskutty as I want right-wingers to address the substance of the issue.
 
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John Kasich tried to be logical and inject a dose of reality into the Republican debate last night but was unsuccessful as the GOP base don't want to live in a world where fact and reason exist. He was fighting a losing battle.

Rubio did well in terms of delivering the right-wing talking points and is positioning himself as the establishment candidate though what was with the random attack on philosophers ?! I guess Republicans don't like people who think for a living...

Jeb Bush continues to tank. Donald Trump's routine seems to be wearing thin too, he got booed a few times as people are starting to see through the bluster and generalities - entertaining yes, presidential material however ? No. Then again Trump's staying power has been underestimated by the pundits. Ben Carson blatantly lied about the minimum wage and unemployment but of course the corporate mainstream media won't pick him up on that.

Highlights:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/H34EzVSQwFw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Please prove 99% of Pakistanis believe evolution is the work of the devil. Do you believe it is the work of the devil despite all the scientific evidence (role of evolution in antibiotic resistance, the common ancestry between species proven by genetic and anatomical similiarities) or is the person you and [MENTION=139319]Thomaskutty[/MENTION] (who's mysteriously disappeared from this thread) want to defend in Ben Carson right ?

Bear in mind this is the same Ben Carson who believes the Holocaust wouldn't happened and 6 million Jews wouldn't have died if the Nazis didn't do gun control, that the US tax system should be based on the Biblical system of tithes and dismissed the Black Lives Matter movement as "creating strife" despite fact that black Americans are more than twice as likely to be unarmed when killed by US cops. He also lied about vaccinations in the debate in an act of breathtaking irresponsibility from a NEUROSURGEON NO LESS no less claiming "There are a "multitude" of vaccines that do not prevent deadly and crippling diseases" - but ALL childhood vaccines prevent deadly/crippling diseases - how can he say that knowing some parents would hear that and NOT vaccinate their kids ?!

And by the way Carson has been caught lying about his past today AGAIN. He claimed he sheltered his white classmates at school during the 1968 race riots - but he couldn't name any of them and NONE of the half-dozen former classmates of Carson or his high school physics teacher could recall white students hiding from rioting in the biology lab like Carson claimed.

Also why would Carson do a book tour in the middle of a Presidential campaign ? Imagine the uproar in 2007 if Barack Obama had done such a thing.Does he want to be President or make a quick buck and boost his public profile ?

Please answer these points and not to do disappearing act like Thomaskutty as I want right-wingers to address the substance of the issue.


lol disappearing act ? I thought you would be embarrassed , Markhor to even show up... you have clearly been exposed as a left wing knee jerk one eyed poster after I posted my link which clearly refutes ALL your points on the Westpoint issue.
The reason I called the media biased is because Obama had even worse things on his bio but nobody bothered to dig it up except for conservative sites.CNN , Politico don't cross-question or vet democrats in the same way they do for republicans.That is clear for everyone to see but people like you just lap it up and post it on here so.. but hey nothing wrong with being a leftie , just don't pretend to be objective.

I think your real beef with Carson was his statements on muslims , admit it.He was merely talking about his opposition to a theocracy which many muslims (not all) believe in.
 
Kassig and Rand Paul are the only people in the republican party that come across as half reasonable

Cruz, Jeb and Rubio are your typical politicians. Will suck up to anything or anyone to get into power
 
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Rand Paul is another nutter like his father as far as politics is concerned

in terms of domestic policy yes, i find that kind of pure libertarian philosophy insane

from a foreign policy point of you do you wont find a saner American politician then Ron Paul

Rand i reckon has the same beliefs but watered down because he knows coming and saying 'our support of Israel creates our enemies' like his dad would is political suicide.
 
lol disappearing act ? I thought you would be embarrassed , Markhor to even show up... you have clearly been exposed as a left wing knee jerk one eyed poster after I posted my link which clearly refutes ALL your points on the Westpoint issue.
The reason I called the media biased is because Obama had even worse things on his bio but nobody bothered to dig it up except for conservative sites.CNN , Politico don't cross-question or vet democrats in the same way they do for republicans.That is clear for everyone to see but people like you just lap it up and post it on here so.. but hey nothing wrong with being a leftie , just don't pretend to be objective.

I think your real beef with Carson was his statements on muslims , admit it.He was merely talking about his opposition to a theocracy which many muslims (not all) believe in.
No it didn't refute anything - I've already told you about the US Army records showing General Westmoreland wasn't even in Detroit on the day Carson claimed to meet him, that Carson made up the "full scholarship" to West Point offer as there's NO SUCH THING as a full scholarship to West Point, its free tuition and the story about him stabbing a schoolmate only for his BELT BUCKLE to get in the way was so laughable even Donald Trump mocked him.

I don't dislike Ben Carson only because of his comments about Muslims (it wasn't opposition to theocracy, watch the Jake Tapper interview, he says a Muslim president would have to "reject the tenets of Islam").

I dislike him because he says insane things like "evolution is the work of the devil", saying the Holocaust could've been avoided if the Jews had guns (a crass and disgusting comment) and wanting to base the tax system on the Biblical system of tithes. He totally dismissed the Black Lives Matter movement as well, saying "why don't they protest against plumbers when they do a bad job" in a comment so foolish even the most ardent Carsonista can't defend it - last time I checked plumbers weren't killing unarmed black men.

Address those comments please as they're HIS words not my "lefty opinions".

:))) at the idea Obama wasn't vetted. Do you follow American politics ? Do you not remember the birth certificate furore ? The right-media have relentlessly attacked Obama from day one - that he's not American, he's a secret Muslim etc. Go back and watch the CNN debates again. The GOP were given softball after softball with lame questions like "What did you think about what Donald Trump said about you ?" with no questioning on substance whereas Anderson Cooper turned up with a machine gun against the Democrats.
 
Ben Carson also claimed he had a vision where angels gave him the answers to his college chemistry exam the night before. I'm not kidding.

This is definitely the man we should have in the Oval Office, after all its not like we've had previous GOP Presidents claiming they spoke to God before making decisions...
 
what annoys me about Carsen is that he gives far right Americans the narritve they want on Black people.

'look at me i was a troubled black kid who went around beating up his mom and stabbing strangers, but then i found Jesus and became a neurosurgeon'
 
Bobby Jindal drops his campaign for US president

Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal has dropped out of the race for the US presidency after struggling for months to gain traction amid sprawling field of Republican candidates.

Although he showed some strength in the early voting state of Iowa, Governor Jindal consistently performed poorly in national polls.

He was shut out of the major Republican debates, relegated to secondary stage.

"This is not my time," Governor Jindal said on Tuesday.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34851185

Goodbye Bobby.
 
Carson on the Palestine-Israel conflict:

“We need to look at fresh ideas,” said Carson. “I don’t have any problem with the Palestinians having a state, but does it need to be within the confines of Israeli territory? Is that necessary, or can you sort of slip that area down into Egypt? Right below Israel, they have some amount of territory, and it can be adjacent. They can benefit from the many agricultural advances that were made by Israel, because if you fly over that area, you can easily see the demarcation between Egypt and Israel, in terms of one being desert and one being verdant. Technology could transform that area. So why does it need to be in an area where there’s going to be temptation for Hamas to continue firing missiles at relatively close range to Israel?”

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/20/ben...just_sort_of_slip_palestinians_down_to_egypt/

Is this guy for real?
 
When did Jindal's campaign ever begin ? At least "Bobby" gets more time to be "tanned and rested" now. Yes that was one of his campaign slogans.

Hopefully his "portrait" will be out of Governor's Mansion in Louisiana soon too.

2_9jindalportrait.jpg
 
[MENTION=139319]Thomaskutty[/MENTION] - I dare you to defend Ben Carson's comments about Syrian refugees.

Rabid dogs eh ?
 
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