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The Caste System: Disgusting bigotry or uncomfortable truth?

but muslims still face issues when looking to rent a place in bangalore. too many first hand stories.

Could be , although my assumption is many people face issues while looking to rent a place as I know my college mates while moving out of hostel had similar issues..but guess if its based on religion they can actual file a case..
 
Could be , although my assumption is many people face issues while looking to rent a place as I know my college mates while moving out of hostel had similar issues..but guess if its based on religion they can actual file a case..

How do you prove it is because of religion? And under what law? The constitution asks the state to be secular, not its citizens. Citizens have the right to discriminate whom they marry, dine with, go out with and rent their properties to.
 
How do you prove it is because of religion? And under what law? The constitution asks the state to be secular, not its citizens. Citizens have the right to discriminate whom they marry, dine with, go out with and rent their properties to.

Then how did they know it was because they were Muslims?
 
Surprising that admission can't be used in court but I guess I made an assumption based on employment to be similar to renting a flat.

let me make it clear. I don't have a problem with that. They are well within their rights. I have problem with any city in india being called cosmopolitan.
 
On September 29, Manisha Valmiki, a 19-year-old Dalit girl succumbed to her injuries from a gang rape committed by four Thakur (upper-caste) men in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. News of the incident caused outrage across India and the rest of the world, including in Pakistan and the diaspora.

I and many fellow Pakistanis have actively participated in social media campaigns demanding justice for Valmiki. But few of us have said much about another horrendous death of a Dalit woman.

On September 30, just a day after Valmiki’s death, 17-year-old Momal Meghwar took her own life in the village of Dalan-Jo-Tarr in Sindh province, Pakistan. A year earlier, she had been brutally raped and filmed by three men who have remained at large.

Meghwar was the 58th woman to take her own life this year in Thar alone. There is a multitude of reasons for this macabre statistic and all are at the intersections of gender, religion, class, and caste.

Yes, caste – a word which many of us Pakistani feminist scholars and organisers, especially those with sectarian, caste, and class privileges in the diaspora, remain unfamiliar with, whether willfully or out of ignorance.

Of course, due to the untiring work of mostly (but not exclusively) Indian-origin Dalit feminists and organisations such as Equality Labs, those of us Pakistanis who have not thought about caste before are learning about caste in India and its diaspora.

However, concerns raised by Dalit and anti-caste thinkers from Pakistan often remain ignored and outright dismissed, especially by caste and class privileged Pakistani Muslims who refuse to see caste, let alone the caste dominance and caste terror prevalent in Pakistan and its diaspora.

Pakistanis need to stop believing that Dalits live only in India. There are about 40 castes, 32 of which were listed as scheduled castes under the November 1957 Presidential ordinance of Pakistan. Meghwars are one of these listed castes, along with Bheels, Kolhis, Baghris and others.

While there are Dalit Muslims in Pakistan, because of the belief that there are no caste hierarchies among Muslims, the castes mentioned as scheduled are necessarily read as Hindu only. It is important to point out the infusion of upper-caste Brahmin supremacy that has coerced and contained lower-caste people into the category of Hindu. Many Dalit-Bahujan people see themselves as part of Indigenous cultures and traditions and reject Hinduism as their religious identification.

Moreover, the majority of Christians in the country are also Dalit – pejoratively labelled as Chuhra. As a recent New York Times article on Dalit Christians taking up scavenging jobs in Pakistan notes, according to the 1998 census, Christians made up only 1.6 percent of the population but filled 80 percent of the sweeper jobs. This caste apartheid is prevalent in Pakistan and yet there is no authentic caste census available.

Just like in India, Dalits face discrimination by society at large and by the state. In a 2007 report on the condition of scheduled castes in Pakistan, journalist Zulfiqar Shah points out that a 6-percent government job quota for scheduled castes from urban and rural areas put forward in 1948 was never ethically implemented and was simply scrapped in the 1990s.

In other words, no political or economic security measures are extended to scheduled caste people who continue to be seen simply as “religious minorities” in Pakistan and marked for violence with impunity.

That is why it is important to call Momal Meghwar’s rape and death by suicide what it is: caste-based sexual violence. While Pakistani mainstream media has mostly stayed silent, in some instances where the incident was discussed, it was made into a case of her being Hindu, a religious minority, effectively erasing caste which is also one of the main factors legitimising violence against lower-caste people by both upper-caste Muslims and Hindus.

The murder of social media celebrity Qandeel Baloch in 2016, which was widely covered by the media, was also linked to caste, but journalists and scholars overwhelmingly ignored that aspect. One of the people who drew attention in public to the role caste played in the killing was anti-caste activist, Auwn Gurmani.

As he explained in a July 2020 tweet: “We remember Qandeel and we also remember she was killed because of her gender, class and most importantly caste background: Qandeel’s caste was Mehra (ماہڑا in Siraiki). Mahar, Mehra, Mehar, Mahara – all these castes have the same origin, scheduled caste in Madhya Pradesh.”

Caste dismissal in Pakistan often comes from the belief that because we are Muslim, caste does not exist in our communities and societies. Unlike Hindu scriptures, the Quran does not establish and condone a caste system. Moreover, unlike India, Pakistan does not have Brahminical cis-heteropatriarchy and Islamophobia governing the nation-state.

The ritualistic, religious, familial, social, economic, political and gendered aspects of caste have their own tones in Pakistan. It is not saffron-tinted, as Hindu nationalism is, but rather it takes a green, Islamic traditional, hue. This is not to say that the importation and translation of Hindutva ideology are not happening across the border and do not affect Pakistani Muslims’ conception of caste.

As Sindhi anti-caste scholar Ghulam Hussain, who has contributed ground-breaking work on caste relations in Sindh, notes, Sayedism and Brahminism are infused with each other. Sayed supremacy – which Hussain labels as Sayedism – comes from the (unproven) belief that Sayeds are genealogical descendants of Prophet Muhammad and therefore have a more authentic grasp on Islam and all social and political matters.

Another anti-caste researcher, Haris Gazdar, points out that “the public silencing on caste contrasts with an obsession with it in private dealings”. There is always violence attached to caste hierarchies of which Gazdar names several examples, such as having pejorative labels to strict taboos around eating and drinking together and sharing of utensils to stealing land to beatings and rapes of men and women of lowered caste people with impunity, all to “keep them in their place”.

Islam is often evoked by upper-caste Muslims as the reason for some of these practices. Pakistani Muslims would argue that lowered caste people from Hindu and Christian minorities eat “haram” (forbidden by Islamic law) food. However, eating with upper-caste Hindus and Christians is not frowned upon.

These Brahminical notions of ritual purity become aligned with concepts of “paak” (pure/clean) and “naapak” (impure/unclean) under Muslims’ casteist interpretations of Islam. Even when lowered caste people from religious minorities convert to Islam, they continue to meet with the same caste-based violence. Conversion to Islam in Pakistan does not de-casteise the lowered caste people who continue to be treated as “untouchables”.

There is also the commonly circulated argument that caste exists only in rural areas of provinces like Sindh and Punjab. But caste dangerously circulates as common sense in large cities as well.

A recent example of this, even among young people who are usually understood as more progressive than their parents’ generation, is a student-led survey at the University of Lahore in Punjab in which students were asked on camera questions about how caste informs choices they make about romantic relationships and friendships. Every single one of these students knew their caste from Sayeds to Arains (a predominantly agricultural caste) to Sheikhs (a lower caste stereotyped as having a business acumen). In the almost nine-minute-long video, it is quite clear that caste is an active and everyday experience for university students in an urban setting.

More survey work needs to be done in urban and rural areas, as well as in the diaspora to fully understand the forms which caste takes at our dinner tables, in our kinships, our attachments, workplaces, and every other aspect of our lives.

As many of us diasporic Pakistanis become invested in liberatory projects of Black Lives Matter and Indigenous sovereignties in the west and educated about caste politics in India, it appears that this is indeed the right time to turn inwards and explore our own experiences with caste. Sayedism – a prime example of upper-caste dominance and hegemony – is quite prominent among us and should be studied both in Pakistan and in the diaspora.

In our pursuit of understanding caste, however, we also need to be very careful, particularly us western-educated, class- and caste-privileged diasporic scholars. Some of us go to Pakistan to focus on caste violence in the menial jobs lower castes are relegated to, such as scavenging or sanitation work.

While I think these anthropological studies have their place and must be done, I am also reminded of scholar Joby Mathew’s remarks in the book Hatred in the Belly: “If any intellectual wants to emphasize the pathetic condition of Dalits through these derogatory images [of scavenging], that itself amounts to symbolic violence”.

Furthermore, when looking into caste-based, gender-based violence and trying to understand a figure such as Baloch in all her complexities, our analysis needs to move beyond the binaries of lower-caste women as either vulnerable victims or heroes. Therefore, it is urgent that we engage with Dalit feminist theory.

And finally, we also have to remain aware and mindful of how Islamophobia and anti-Pakistan violence can be disruptive in our critical work on complicity in various structures of domination. To talk about violence in Pakistan is difficult because of how quickly nationalist non-Muslim Indians – and even those Indian Muslims invested in the idea of Brahminical India – latch onto our critiques to further malign Pakistan as a terrorist Muslim state.

But the intense Islamophobia, casteism, and colonial violence – in relation to Kashmir, for example – in India should not be a reason not to have these important conversations and studies in Pakistan and the diaspora. After all, these violent paradigms are interconnected and know no borders.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...bout-caste-in-pakistan-and-pakistani-diaspora
 
On September 29, Manisha Valmiki, a 19-year-old Dalit girl succumbed to her injuries from a gang rape committed by four Thakur (upper-caste) men in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. News of the incident caused outrage across India and the rest of the world, including in Pakistan and the diaspora.

I and many fellow Pakistanis have actively participated in social media campaigns demanding justice for Valmiki. But few of us have said much about another horrendous death of a Dalit woman.

On September 30, just a day after Valmiki’s death, 17-year-old Momal Meghwar took her own life in the village of Dalan-Jo-Tarr in Sindh province, Pakistan. A year earlier, she had been brutally raped and filmed by three men who have remained at large.

Meghwar was the 58th woman to take her own life this year in Thar alone. There is a multitude of reasons for this macabre statistic and all are at the intersections of gender, religion, class, and caste.

Yes, caste – a word which many of us Pakistani feminist scholars and organisers, especially those with sectarian, caste, and class privileges in the diaspora, remain unfamiliar with, whether willfully or out of ignorance.

Of course, due to the untiring work of mostly (but not exclusively) Indian-origin Dalit feminists and organisations such as Equality Labs, those of us Pakistanis who have not thought about caste before are learning about caste in India and its diaspora.

However, concerns raised by Dalit and anti-caste thinkers from Pakistan often remain ignored and outright dismissed, especially by caste and class privileged Pakistani Muslims who refuse to see caste, let alone the caste dominance and caste terror prevalent in Pakistan and its diaspora.

Pakistanis need to stop believing that Dalits live only in India. There are about 40 castes, 32 of which were listed as scheduled castes under the November 1957 Presidential ordinance of Pakistan. Meghwars are one of these listed castes, along with Bheels, Kolhis, Baghris and others.

While there are Dalit Muslims in Pakistan, because of the belief that there are no caste hierarchies among Muslims, the castes mentioned as scheduled are necessarily read as Hindu only. It is important to point out the infusion of upper-caste Brahmin supremacy that has coerced and contained lower-caste people into the category of Hindu. Many Dalit-Bahujan people see themselves as part of Indigenous cultures and traditions and reject Hinduism as their religious identification.

Moreover, the majority of Christians in the country are also Dalit – pejoratively labelled as Chuhra. As a recent New York Times article on Dalit Christians taking up scavenging jobs in Pakistan notes, according to the 1998 census, Christians made up only 1.6 percent of the population but filled 80 percent of the sweeper jobs. This caste apartheid is prevalent in Pakistan and yet there is no authentic caste census available.

Just like in India, Dalits face discrimination by society at large and by the state. In a 2007 report on the condition of scheduled castes in Pakistan, journalist Zulfiqar Shah points out that a 6-percent government job quota for scheduled castes from urban and rural areas put forward in 1948 was never ethically implemented and was simply scrapped in the 1990s.

In other words, no political or economic security measures are extended to scheduled caste people who continue to be seen simply as “religious minorities” in Pakistan and marked for violence with impunity.

That is why it is important to call Momal Meghwar’s rape and death by suicide what it is: caste-based sexual violence. While Pakistani mainstream media has mostly stayed silent, in some instances where the incident was discussed, it was made into a case of her being Hindu, a religious minority, effectively erasing caste which is also one of the main factors legitimising violence against lower-caste people by both upper-caste Muslims and Hindus.

The murder of social media celebrity Qandeel Baloch in 2016, which was widely covered by the media, was also linked to caste, but journalists and scholars overwhelmingly ignored that aspect. One of the people who drew attention in public to the role caste played in the killing was anti-caste activist, Auwn Gurmani.

As he explained in a July 2020 tweet: “We remember Qandeel and we also remember she was killed because of her gender, class and most importantly caste background: Qandeel’s caste was Mehra (ماہڑا in Siraiki). Mahar, Mehra, Mehar, Mahara – all these castes have the same origin, scheduled caste in Madhya Pradesh.”

Caste dismissal in Pakistan often comes from the belief that because we are Muslim, caste does not exist in our communities and societies. Unlike Hindu scriptures, the Quran does not establish and condone a caste system. Moreover, unlike India, Pakistan does not have Brahminical cis-heteropatriarchy and Islamophobia governing the nation-state.

The ritualistic, religious, familial, social, economic, political and gendered aspects of caste have their own tones in Pakistan. It is not saffron-tinted, as Hindu nationalism is, but rather it takes a green, Islamic traditional, hue. This is not to say that the importation and translation of Hindutva ideology are not happening across the border and do not affect Pakistani Muslims’ conception of caste.

As Sindhi anti-caste scholar Ghulam Hussain, who has contributed ground-breaking work on caste relations in Sindh, notes, Sayedism and Brahminism are infused with each other. Sayed supremacy – which Hussain labels as Sayedism – comes from the (unproven) belief that Sayeds are genealogical descendants of Prophet Muhammad and therefore have a more authentic grasp on Islam and all social and political matters.

Another anti-caste researcher, Haris Gazdar, points out that “the public silencing on caste contrasts with an obsession with it in private dealings”. There is always violence attached to caste hierarchies of which Gazdar names several examples, such as having pejorative labels to strict taboos around eating and drinking together and sharing of utensils to stealing land to beatings and rapes of men and women of lowered caste people with impunity, all to “keep them in their place”.

Islam is often evoked by upper-caste Muslims as the reason for some of these practices. Pakistani Muslims would argue that lowered caste people from Hindu and Christian minorities eat “haram” (forbidden by Islamic law) food. However, eating with upper-caste Hindus and Christians is not frowned upon.

These Brahminical notions of ritual purity become aligned with concepts of “paak” (pure/clean) and “naapak” (impure/unclean) under Muslims’ casteist interpretations of Islam. Even when lowered caste people from religious minorities convert to Islam, they continue to meet with the same caste-based violence. Conversion to Islam in Pakistan does not de-casteise the lowered caste people who continue to be treated as “untouchables”.

There is also the commonly circulated argument that caste exists only in rural areas of provinces like Sindh and Punjab. But caste dangerously circulates as common sense in large cities as well.

A recent example of this, even among young people who are usually understood as more progressive than their parents’ generation, is a student-led survey at the University of Lahore in Punjab in which students were asked on camera questions about how caste informs choices they make about romantic relationships and friendships. Every single one of these students knew their caste from Sayeds to Arains (a predominantly agricultural caste) to Sheikhs (a lower caste stereotyped as having a business acumen). In the almost nine-minute-long video, it is quite clear that caste is an active and everyday experience for university students in an urban setting.

More survey work needs to be done in urban and rural areas, as well as in the diaspora to fully understand the forms which caste takes at our dinner tables, in our kinships, our attachments, workplaces, and every other aspect of our lives.

As many of us diasporic Pakistanis become invested in liberatory projects of Black Lives Matter and Indigenous sovereignties in the west and educated about caste politics in India, it appears that this is indeed the right time to turn inwards and explore our own experiences with caste. Sayedism – a prime example of upper-caste dominance and hegemony – is quite prominent among us and should be studied both in Pakistan and in the diaspora.

In our pursuit of understanding caste, however, we also need to be very careful, particularly us western-educated, class- and caste-privileged diasporic scholars. Some of us go to Pakistan to focus on caste violence in the menial jobs lower castes are relegated to, such as scavenging or sanitation work.

While I think these anthropological studies have their place and must be done, I am also reminded of scholar Joby Mathew’s remarks in the book Hatred in the Belly: “If any intellectual wants to emphasize the pathetic condition of Dalits through these derogatory images [of scavenging], that itself amounts to symbolic violence”.

Furthermore, when looking into caste-based, gender-based violence and trying to understand a figure such as Baloch in all her complexities, our analysis needs to move beyond the binaries of lower-caste women as either vulnerable victims or heroes. Therefore, it is urgent that we engage with Dalit feminist theory.

And finally, we also have to remain aware and mindful of how Islamophobia and anti-Pakistan violence can be disruptive in our critical work on complicity in various structures of domination. To talk about violence in Pakistan is difficult because of how quickly nationalist non-Muslim Indians – and even those Indian Muslims invested in the idea of Brahminical India – latch onto our critiques to further malign Pakistan as a terrorist Muslim state.

But the intense Islamophobia, casteism, and colonial violence – in relation to Kashmir, for example – in India should not be a reason not to have these important conversations and studies in Pakistan and the diaspora. After all, these violent paradigms are interconnected and know no borders.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...bout-caste-in-pakistan-and-pakistani-diaspora

Out of interest do any Pakistanis on here identify or even know their caste?...

I went to school with a Pakistani Muslim who took pride in the fact he was a Jat...is Memon a caste ?...other than those I’ve never met any Pakistani who’s even alluded to it ...
 
Out of interest do any Pakistanis on here identify or even know their caste?...

I went to school with a Pakistani Muslim who took pride in the fact he was a Jat...is Memon a caste ?...other than those I’ve never met any Pakistani who’s even alluded to it ...

Pakistanis abroad will rarely talk about it publicly, just not seen as a very cool thing to do. No idea if it's discussed openly in Pakistan, but I think even there it's mostly an unspoken thing.
 
Out of interest do any Pakistanis on here identify or even know their caste?...

I went to school with a Pakistani Muslim who took pride in the fact he was a Jat...is Memon a caste ?...other than those I’ve never met any Pakistani who’s even alluded to it ...

It’s very uncommon. Like very.

Memoms do but I don’t think that’s a caste. Seems like they see it as an ethnicity.

Apart from that my whole life I’ve only heard one guy refer to and take pride in being a Rajput
 
It’s very uncommon. Like very.

Memoms do but I don’t think that’s a caste. Seems like they see it as an ethnicity.

Apart from that my whole life I’ve only heard one guy refer to and take pride in being a Rajput


Thanks for the insight ...yours fit with my own experiences...
 
Pakistanis abroad will rarely talk about it publicly, just not seen as a very cool thing to do. No idea if it's discussed openly in Pakistan, but I think even there it's mostly an unspoken thing.

Would they know it though?
 
Pakistanis tend to stick to marriage within their own castes or castes on a similar level. It's still a reasonably big deal in some circles.

I know if I had married into certain castes it would have genuinely brought my grandmother to tears. In younger generations its less of a big deal. Surprised that this experience isn't more common. Perhaps its just my caste/extended family that still consider it a factor. Maybe its stronger in Punjab than other provinces too.
 
Pakistanis tend to stick to marriage within their own castes or castes on a similar level. It's still a reasonably big deal in some circles.

I know if I had married into certain castes it would have genuinely brought my grandmother to tears. In younger generations its less of a big deal. Surprised that this experience isn't more common. Perhaps its just my caste/extended family that still consider it a factor. Maybe its stronger in Punjab than other provinces too.

Is the Sayid thing a thing when getting married?...
 
Both. It is an uncomfortable truth that the caste system (which is disgusting bigotry) exists
 
Is the Sayid thing a thing when getting married?...

I don't think these fake Sayid's really like to marry outside their caste....perhaps more so than other castes.

In all honesty I think the caste system only plays a part in marriage, and that too in arranged marriages. AFAIK it doesn't really affect friendships/jobs/social interactions apart from some bigoted comments here and there. It is nowhere to the level of Indian Caste system.
 
Both. It is an uncomfortable truth that the caste system (which is disgusting bigotry) exists

Caste system is disgusting, it exists and any idiot that tells you it doesn't is a fool. They are probably the oppressing caste.
 
Caste system is disgusting, it exists and any idiot that tells you it doesn't is a fool. They are probably the oppressing caste.

Caste system is good. Oppression based on caste is bad.

Just like you don't call religion bad just because there is religion based oppression.
 
India should ‘fix its own caste system’ before taking the knee against racism
October 26, 2021 - 20:28PM

Sky News host Andrew Bolt says India should “fix its own caste system” before making “big international gestures” against racism.

It comes after the Indian cricket took the knee as a protest against racism before its game against Pakistan.

“This is from a team representing the country that should first fix its own caste system before making big international statements,” he said.

“The Hindu caste system that has Brahmins, the priest caste at the very top, and the Untouchables down at the very, very bottom.

“Has the Indian team ever taken the knee to protest against that, or is that a bit too close to home?”

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/...racism/video/89abcfe153a67737ebc9c13853ad6cd0
 
He is right. But would have preferred if the observation came from someone who's not a right wing bigot himself.
 
The caste system has been a really big issue especially in Punjab. Jatts have always been seen as the elite Punjabi race with great skills to survive and to excel when it comes to job prospects. It's a very huge thing for both Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs.
 
The caste system has been a really big issue especially in Punjab. Jatts have always been seen as the elite Punjabi race with great skills to survive and to excel when it comes to job prospects. It's a very huge thing for both Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs.

Yes we are more expressive and domineering but in Pakistan, we are also a huge majority of the population. So it’s quite natural for us to be almost everywhere, and this is not directly a result of elitism.
Things are changing on our side of the border now, thankfully.
 
Yes we are more expressive and domineering but in Pakistan, we are also a huge majority of the population. So it’s quite natural for us to be almost everywhere, and this is not directly a result of elitism.
Things are changing on our side of the border now, thankfully.

Exactly, I don't see a problem with people marrying into their own castes (as long as it's not a cousin marriage since it's disgusting) but technically everyone should have equal opportunities in life.
 
I am not an expert on this topic but here is my understanding.

Caste system was defined by the work they used to do in the most simple terms. Like pottery, agriculture, barber, warrior, priest etc etc. The original intention was that, people will specialize in a particular skill through this way. But human nature is not noble. We define respect and power based on the work we do. So, some castes eventually held higher power while the others became downtrodden. After generations, power concentrated in a few hands.

Caste based discrimination was very much prevalent mainly due to power concentration and lack of central governance. It’s more of a ruling issue rather than a religious one. For example: Brahmins were priests and used to be respected more. But as importance shifted to ruling, they became powerful and later landlords gained most power. Religious texts doesn't specify any of these things.

My personal opinion - If you are economically poor, you don't have much identity in this society and caste provides one such identity. Hence, people cling on to it. It provides sense of pride and unity among big groups.

While these are the negatives, castes usually have their own culture. Like people from agricultural background vs landlords etc. As the lives revolved around the work / skill, that festivals / celebrations also revolve around that. For example, in during harvest season, the set of activities and festivities done by the people vastly vary. Hence, marriages used to happen among same castes.

Now, the whole work based concept evolved radically and hence, the caste system holds little value to our generation particularly. And as people grow, new identities for them will be created and castes doesn't even provide that. Hence, we see lots of educated and successful people not minding caste as it holds little value. Even the cultural significance is limited.

And India has strict laws on caste based discrimination and an SC/ST case on anyone can almost ruin their life. While the eradication of discrimination may vary given the vast size of India and the backwardness persisting in rural areas.

Regarding to which societies these caste systems are closer -
Given my limited studies on philosophy during MBA - I feel its closer to Socrates definition of society. “Doing what one supposed to do”

And if we simplify this even further, its also similar to Marxist theory of evolution where capitalism eventually shifts to communism. But it never happens as “one cannot let go of the power and the things they own”.

I understand that most of the posters here is looking for troll posts, but this is the closest perspective I can give and it resonates with most people I believe.
 
I am not an expert on this topic but here is my understanding.

Caste system was defined by the work they used to do in the most simple terms. Like pottery, agriculture, barber, warrior, priest etc etc. The original intention was that, people will specialize in a particular skill through this way. But human nature is not noble. We define respect and power based on the work we do. So, some castes eventually held higher power while the others became downtrodden. After generations, power concentrated in a few hands.

Caste based discrimination was very much prevalent mainly due to power concentration and lack of central governance. It’s more of a ruling issue rather than a religious one. For example: Brahmins were priests and used to be respected more. But as importance shifted to ruling, they became powerful and later landlords gained most power. Religious texts doesn't specify any of these things.

My personal opinion - If you are economically poor, you don't have much identity in this society and caste provides one such identity. Hence, people cling on to it. It provides sense of pride and unity among big groups.

While these are the negatives, castes usually have their own culture. Like people from agricultural background vs landlords etc. As the lives revolved around the work / skill, that festivals / celebrations also revolve around that. For example, in during harvest season, the set of activities and festivities done by the people vastly vary. Hence, marriages used to happen among same castes.

Now, the whole work based concept evolved radically and hence, the caste system holds little value to our generation particularly. And as people grow, new identities for them will be created and castes doesn't even provide that. Hence, we see lots of educated and successful people not minding caste as it holds little value. Even the cultural significance is limited.

And India has strict laws on caste based discrimination and an SC/ST case on anyone can almost ruin their life. While the eradication of discrimination may vary given the vast size of India and the backwardness persisting in rural areas.

Regarding to which societies these caste systems are closer -
Given my limited studies on philosophy during MBA - I feel its closer to Socrates definition of society. “Doing what one supposed to do”

And if we simplify this even further, its also similar to Marxist theory of evolution where capitalism eventually shifts to communism. But it never happens as “one cannot let go of the power and the things they own”.

I understand that most of the posters here is looking for troll posts, but this is the closest perspective I can give and it resonates with most people I believe.
WHat is shudra or untouchable?
 
WHat is shudra or untouchable?
Shudra means born from lower part of body in ‘RigVeda’
Its not a derogatory term but human nature has made it evolved into the way that social classes are made fixed at birth.


You can refer to this if you want. Hindu social classes refereed in ‘RigVeda’, the Hindu literature is based on talent and virtues and not by birth. But once people got power, they evolved it into caste system. The caste system and sub-divisions today has no basis in literature.
 
I do not see sanghis condemning caste system.

If they believe in decency, they should condemn it. Caste system is a racist system. :inti
 
Shudra means born from lower part of body in ‘RigVeda’
Its not a derogatory term but human nature has made it evolved into the way that social classes are made fixed at birth.


You can refer to this if you want. Hindu social classes refereed in ‘RigVeda’, the Hindu literature is based on talent and virtues and not by birth. But once people got power, they evolved it into caste system. The caste system and sub-divisions today has no basis in literature.

what does Manu say about caste system?
 
Where is the guy that claimed India should be based around the Hindu culture. My question is which shared Hindu culture? Are we talking about the culture that treats the darker skinned people as crap and beats them to death if they drink from the same cup as the Chiti Chambri.
@kron
another strawman logic.
Using the actions of a small representative of a tiny group of miscreants and using that same logic to apply it to the entire population.

Even if you factor that in, it’s nothing compared to what your backwards uncultured country does to its women. Go read about what qoran says about people practicing other religions.

- honor killings rampant in your disgusting culture
- barbaric ideology to destroy anyone who isn’t a Muslim basically
- women get bashed and subdued. Can’t question the men. Enforce the burqa when they go out
-coercing people and forcing Islam down their throats or they risk being killed
- wife beating is recommended to keep women suppressed lmao
-if you actually read the Quran it tells you to kill all polytheists
 
another strawman logic.
Using the actions of a small representative of a tiny group of miscreants and using that same logic to apply it to the entire population.

Even if you factor that in, it’s nothing compared to what your backwards uncultured country does to its women. Go read about what qoran says about people practicing other religions.

- honor killings rampant in your disgusting culture
- barbaric ideology to destroy anyone who isn’t a Muslim basically
- women get bashed and subdued. Can’t question the men. Enforce the burqa when they go out
-coercing people and forcing Islam down their throats or they risk being killed
- wife beating is recommended to keep women suppressed lmao
-if you actually read the Quran it tells you to kill all polytheists
For you to deny that its been part of Hunduism for 1000s of years shows how embarrassed you are of what you called the Hindu culture and you want to impose this culture on every citizen of Indian. Its the light thrown by the 20th century to the laws being passed.
How do you know its isolated? Do you think the dark skinned people would get Justice in the rural areas if they pursued something you call Hindu culture?
So once again what is this shared culture where one group thinks the others are sub human?
 
Where is the guy that claimed India should be based around the Hindu culture. My question is which shared Hindu culture? Are we talking about the culture that treats the darker skinned people as crap and beats them to death if they drink from the same cup as the Chiti Chambri.
@kron
I don't think he is from India either lol

He took one look at the culture and self deported himself.

Only thing left from his Hindu culture is Muslim loathing.
 
I don't think he is from India either lol

He took one look at the culture and self deported himself.

Only thing left from his Hindu culture is Muslim loathing.
That's the only thing that unites them. Hence they go around the World showing empathy for oppressed Whites in America and Europe🤣🤣🤣
He used the Word Hindu Culture and that rquires an explanation of how one of set of Hindus treat the darker skinned Hindus as sub human. The irony gets even more weird because the Whites they ape do in some cases eat from the same plate as their dogs and sleep in the same bed. They treat their animals as equals and show them more love then these guys show their fellow human beings.
 
another strawman logic.
Using the actions of a small representative of a tiny group of miscreants and using that same logic to apply it to the entire population.

Even if you factor that in, it’s nothing compared to what your backwards uncultured country does to its women. Go read about what qoran says about people practicing other religions.

- honor killings rampant in your disgusting culture
- barbaric ideology to destroy anyone who isn’t a Muslim basically
- women get bashed and subdued. Can’t question the men. Enforce the burqa when they go out
-coercing people and forcing Islam down their throats or they risk being killed
- wife beating is recommended to keep women suppressed lmao
-if you actually read the Quran it tells you to kill all polytheists
Not Allowed to Rent Because of Caste


 
For you to deny that its been part of Hunduism for 1000s of years shows how embarrassed you are of what you called the Hindu culture and you want to impose this culture on every citizen of Indian. Its the light thrown by the 20th century to the laws being passed.
How do you know its isolated? Do you think the dark skinned people would get Justice in the rural areas if they pursued something you call Hindu culture?
So once again what is this shared culture where one group thinks the others are sub human?
Yes they would get justice.

What has that got to do with what I said before anyway?

Things are changing in India. Caste system is a product of colonialism anyway.

For me anyone who is racist to his own kind and uses caste as a tool to denigrate and belittle someone should be executed. Plain and simple.

I don’t and have never tolerated this kind of behaviour personally. Atleast we are making changes though.

Like I always say.

Move forward like urine does. Not backwards like feces.

Worry about your own backwards culture first. The most backwards culture in the world.

Anglos being on par with you lot as well as Christianity is no better Another backwards culture.
 

How Indian Cities Hide Caste Discrimination (Mumbai, Delhi & Corporate India) | Simplyy Samjho |​






Caste discrimination in Indian cities like Mumbai, Delhi, and Bangalore is thriving — from posh housing societies to corporate boardrooms and elite campuses.We think caste system lives in villages — but here’s the truth: Indian cities hide caste in housing, jobs, education, and even dating apps. From Mumbai’s posh societies denying Dalits to corporate India dominated by upper castes, and tragedies like Darshan Solanki at IIT Bombay — this is how Indian cities hide caste in plain sight.In this video, we uncover:
  • Urban caste bias in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore housing markets
  • Why Dalits and OBCs change surnames to rent or buy homes
  • Corporate caste discrimination — Oxfam & IIM Bangalore studies
  • Caste harassment cases like the IndiGo pilot incident
  • SC/ST dropout crisis in IITs, IIMs, and universities
  • Dating app caste bias and honour killings like Pranay Perumalla’s case

@Rajdeep @cricketjoshila @Champ_Pal @JaDed @Devadwal @uppercut @Theanonymousone @straighttalk @Vikram1989 @Varun @Romali_rotti @Bhaijaan @Cover Drive Six @rickroll @rpant_gabba, @Romali_rotti @kron @globetrotter @Hitman @jnaveen1980


#FreeMinoritiesOfIndiaFromHindus

#SaveAllIndianMinorities

#FreeIndiaFromHinduExtremism

#SanctionIndia
 
Yes they would get justice.

What has that got to do with what I said before anyway?

Things are changing in India. Caste system is a product of colonialism anyway.

For me anyone who is racist to his own kind and uses caste as a tool to denigrate and belittle someone should be executed. Plain and simple.

I don’t and have never tolerated this kind of behaviour personally. Atleast we are making changes though.

Like I always say.

Move forward like urine does. Not backwards like feces.

Worry about your own backwards culture first. The most backwards culture in the world.

Anglos being on par with you lot as well as Christianity is no better Another backwards culture.
I trust that you don't but the culture you advocated for all citizens is not a shared culture. You cannot have a stake in something which treats you like crap or even worse sub human which is how many of your fellow shared culturees feel about the darker people
 
@kron - why leave a laughing emoji and not say anything,


are you to write anything, cmon kron challenge us
*How come you didn't write anything*

Sanghis are low-IQ, braindead zombies.

Their behaviors are not normal by human standard. So, not surprised when they do not condemn disgusting racist systems like caste system. :inti
 
Look at this popular Maulana and his views on Dalits. While Indian Dalit organizations and Leftists go to bed with Islamists, this is what Islamists think of Dalits. Anyone who makes such statements against Dalits will be in jail and will never see the daylight again.




Caste system is deeply ingrained in the subcontinent, even in Pakistan there is still plenty of evidence that Hindu culture persists despite the religious faith proclaimed by the new nation. It seems to be a deeply ingrained part of the fabric there.

I wonder if it is the same in other parts of alleged Akhand Bharat like Afghanistan or Nepal?
 
Caste system is deeply ingrained in the subcontinent, even in Pakistan there is still plenty of evidence that Hindu culture persists despite the religious faith proclaimed by the new nation. It seems to be a deeply ingrained part of the fabric there.

I wonder if it is the same in other parts of alleged Akhand Bharat like Afghanistan or Nepal?
Way to blame Hinduism. Pakistani Muslims have not been Hindu for centuries. They are not some fresh converts who still cling onto their age old practices that their ancestors may have done.
Dalits are looked down upon not just because of their low social status. But also due to their looks and the jobs they did. Pakistan also has caste system. It’s a division of the society.
 
Way to blame Hinduism. Pakistani Muslims have not been Hindu for centuries. They are not some fresh converts who still cling onto their age old practices that their ancestors may have done.
Dalits are looked down upon not just because of their low social status. But also due to their looks and the jobs they did. Pakistan also has caste system. It’s a division of the society.

Lots of Pakistanis are still honorary Hindus though, even if they won't admit it. Didn't your Indian bro @Bhaijaan just post some video of Pakistani girls doing some Bollywood dance at a wedding ceremony in Pakistan?
 
I have never seen sanghis condemn caste system. Then again, sanghis are big racists. So, I can see why they support this racist system. :inti

As far as I am concerned, caste system is worse than South Africa's apartheid. India deserve to be boycotted/sanctioned like South Africa until they abolish caste system and ensure minority protections.

#SaveIndianMinorities
 
Lots of Pakistanis are still honorary Hindus though, even if they won't admit it. Didn't your Indian bro @Bhaijaan just post some video of Pakistani girls doing some Bollywood dance at a wedding ceremony in Pakistan?
Stupid logic.

Lots of white and black and Hispanic girls also dance to Bollywood songs. They don’t call racist names like chamar and call them unclean and ugly.

Pakistan has not been Hibdu for centuries. Most don’t even know what Hinduism is and what it represents. It is very evident from the posts of many Pak ppers.

Just accept Pakistan is racist. Such speeches are banned in India and the punishments are severe. In Pakistan, such people become Maulana with millions of followers. :mv
 
Stupid logic.

Lots of white and black and Hispanic girls also dance to Bollywood songs. They don’t call racist names like chamar and call them unclean and ugly.

Pakistan has not been Hibdu for centuries. Most don’t even know what Hinduism is and what it represents. It is very evident from the posts of many Pak ppers.

Just accept Pakistan is racist. Such speeches are banned in India and the punishments are severe. In Pakistan, such people become Maulana with millions of followers. :mv

It's simple logic. Is Chamar or Dalit from Islam or Hindu caste system? Then you can use your own logic to deduct where this racism comes from. Stop trying to deflect and own it.

I am not here to defend Pakistan, I am quite correctly pointing out the roots of the caste prejudice and how it is still prevalent, even in countries which have supposedly left Hindu culture behind.

We both know this is true, there is no need to be defensive. Especially since you are an alleged atheist and not a believer in Hindu relgion.
 
It's simple logic. Is Chamar or Dalit from Islam or Hindu caste system? Then you can use your own logic to deduct where this racism comes from. Stop trying to deflect and own it.

I am not here to defend Pakistan, I am quite correctly pointing out the roots of the caste prejudice and how it is still prevalent, even in countries which have supposedly left Hindu culture behind.

We both know this is true, there is no need to be defensive. Especially since you are an alleged atheist and not a believer in Hindu relgion.
Why are the light skinned guys at the top of the food chain, why not the dark guys. @Champ_Pal
Is racial purity the reason the RSS are a Nazi organisation and the Hindutuva are so invested in Sir Elon and Sir Tommy Ten names
 
Organizations from sc/st/minorities demanding Brahmins to leave the country.

This is the real face of caste discrimination. After getting reservations for almost 80yrs and getting nice government jobs even though they don’t deserve them on merit, they now demand upper caste to leave the country.
Many Muslims believe they are the Aulad of Mughal, Arabs and Persians. I wonder if they are also being asked to leave the country.
:mv


 
Organizations from sc/st/minorities demanding Brahmins to leave the country.

This is the real face of caste discrimination. After getting reservations for almost 80yrs and getting nice government jobs even though they don’t deserve them on merit, they now demand upper caste to leave the country.
Many Muslims believe they are the Aulad of Mughal, Arabs and Persians. I wonder if they are also being asked to leave the country.
:mv


you left the country didnt you :ROFLMAO:
 

'Caste Status Not Enough': Court Rejects Use Of SC/ST Act In Property Case​


The court observed that a mere reference to SC land or the caste status of the informant is insufficient to attract the provisions of the special law.


New Delhi:
The Allahabad High Court has quashed a criminal case, including charges under the SC/ST Act, arising from alleged irregularities in land allotments made more than two decades ago and related revenue proceedings.

Allowing a criminal appeal, a single-judge Bench of Justice Shekhar Kumar Yadav observed that a mere reference to Scheduled Caste land or the caste status of the informant is insufficient to attract the provisions of the special law.

Justice Yadav held that the case was "predominantly civil and revenue in nature" and that the prosecution amounted to an abuse of the process of law.

In its order, the Allahabad High Court set aside the cognisance and summoning order dated March 20, 2023, the charge sheet, and all proceedings arising from a 2022 FIR registered at Dadri police station in Gautam Buddha Nagar, under Section 3(1)(f) of the SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989, along with multiple IPC offences.


It held that neither the FIR nor the charge sheet disclosed that the alleged acts were committed "on the ground that the victim belongs to a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe", which is a mandatory statutory requirement for invoking the SC/ST Act.

"Mere reference to Scheduled Caste land or status of the informant is insufficient to attract the provisions of the Act," Justice Yadav observed, relying on the law laid down by the Supreme Court.

The Allahabad High Court also observed that the FIR, lodged in 2022 after an unexplained delay of more than two decades, did not attribute any specific role, overt act, or individual transaction to the appellant.

"None of the witnesses have stated that any act was committed by the accused on the ground that the pattadar belonged to a Scheduled Caste, which is a sine qua non for invocation of the SC/ST Act," it said.

The order also flagged serious irregularities in the investigation, including the inclusion of dead persons as prosecution witnesses, observing that such lapses reflected non-application of mind and rendered the investigation legally unsustainable.

The Allahabad High Court added that the summoning order had been passed in a "routine and mechanical manner", without recording satisfaction about the existence of prima facie material.

Taking note that similarly placed co-accused had already been granted relief, and that no distinguishing circumstance was shown against the appellant, Justice Yadav concluded that continuation of the criminal proceedings would amount to an abuse of the process of law.

"In the considered opinion of this court, invocation of the SC/ST Act in the present case is wholly unsustainable, and continuation of the proceedings would result in miscarriage of justice," the Allahabad High Court held, quashing the criminal case in its entirety.



Source:



Sanghis, dalits are not free, have no idea why you keep tellng me this:

@Rajdeep @cricketjoshila @Champ_Pal @Devadwal @uppercut @straighttalk @Vikram1989 @Varun @Romali_rotti @Bhaijaan @Cover Drive Six @rickroll @RexRex @rpant_gabba, @Romali_rotti @kron @globetrotter @Hitman @jnaveen1980 @Local.Dada @CrIc_Mystique @Van_Sri @nish_mate @SportsWarrior @kaayal
 
Interesting phrasing.
This is the real issue.

The real discrimination is done by Backward castes and OBC's against Dalits. But Dalits will never raise their protests against them. Because they are in alliance with them to get more reservation.

Its easy to blame 2% Brahmin of the population who are nothing but punching bags for all and sundry. :mv
 
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