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The complicated relationship of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis

Leo23

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In spite of forming one of the most potent bowling partnerships ever the relationship between wasim and waqar has been a rocky one

Imo waqar has always had a complex because of wasim

Wasim is everything Waqar aspired to be and he has always suffered because he didn't manage to emerge out of his shadow

It all started with the 92 world cup where Wasim became a legend and Waqar was out injured.

That was where Wasim stole Waqar's thunder who was the best bowler in the world from 89-92 and the world cup was supposed to be his tournament.

Waqar had another opportunity to have his moment in the 96 world cup but he got destroyed by jadeja while Wasim cleverly avoided that match

The humiliation that Waqar faced because of that and the criticism that he was subject to did a lot of damage to his career.

While Wasim lead to pakistan to a world cup final in 99, Waqar lead the team to a disastrous tournament only 4 years later.

Wasim retired as a bigger legend of Pakistan and Waqar probably feels that if it wasn't for him his stock would have been far higher.

After retirement Wasim was able to secure mega money coaching gigs with the most marketable IPL franchise (kolkata) while the only thing Waqar got in 10 years of ipl was one brief stint with Sunrisers Hyderabad

As a result Waqar kept himself available for the pakistan coaching job and both his tenures ended in misery.

In spite of coaching pakistan for years he was not considered good enough by any PSL franchise while Wasim immediately got a deal with Islamabad United and now has moved to Multan where he has once again left Waqar in his dust

How do you see the relationship between these two?
 
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in spite of forming one of the most potent bowling partnerships ever the relationship between wasim and waqar has been a rocky one

imo waqar has always had a complex because of wasim

wasim is everything waqar aspired to be and he has always suffered because he didn't manage to emerge out of his shadow

it all started with the 92 world cup where wasim became a legend and waqar was out injured

that was where wasim stole waqar's thunder who was the best bowler in the world from 89-92 and the world cup was supposed to be his tournament

waqar had another opportunity to have his moment in the 96 world cup but he got destroyed by jadeja while wasim cleverly avoided that match

the humiliation that waqar faced because of that and the criticism that he was subject to did a lot of damage to his career

while wasim lead to pakistan to a world cup final in 99,waqar lead the team to a disastrous tournament only 4 years later

wasim retired as a bigger legend of pakistan and waqar probably feels that if it wasn't for him his stock would have been far higher

after retirement wasim was able to secure mega money coaching gigs with the most marketable ipl franchise (kolkata) while the only thing waqar got in 10 years of ipl was one brief stint with sunrisers hyderabad

as a result waqar kept himself available for the pakistan coaching job and both his tenures ended in misery

in spite of coaching pakistan for years he was not considered good enough by any psl franchise while wasim immediately got a deal with islamabad united and now has moved to multan where he has once again left waqar in his dust

how do you see the relationship between these two?



Their relationship is a lot more complex than that. Yes, they ate each other’s brains out during their playing time, but it was a love-hate relationship. They were constantly at each other’s throats, but it didn’t stop Wasim from praising Waqar and admiring him as his comrade in his 1998 Autobiography. Similarly, despite all that adversity, they still had some “good-time” off the pitch (hint: West Indies bust 94).

Post retirement(s), they have been much more amicable and respectful of each other. They have appeared on shows together, reflected upon their pasts in many interview and did come to the realization that they were both somewhat childish in their actions.

This most recent quote has been taken out of context. Waqar was lamenting, but in no way is motivated by jealousy. And it isn’t as big a deal as people are making it to be with sound-bites.
 
As magnificent as the 2 Ws were for Pakistan cricket, they were also very destructive. The constant factionalism and infighting throughout the 90s meant that team failed to achieve its full potential.

They both plotted against each other's captaincy. Waqar led the players revolt against Wasim in 1994 that saw him replaced with Salim Malik, after Javed Miandad and Moin Khan had been controversially left out of the squad for a series vs New Zealand.

The worst of the infighting was around the 2002-03 period, culminating in the awful World Cup campaign where they were barely on speaking terms. Either you were in Wasim's camp or Waqar's. It was clear some of the players weren't playing for Waqar.
 
Pakistan team has always had the potentual to be the best team in the world, if it could rid itslef of the childish immature behaviour, and lie by the words there is no "I" in team
 
Pakistan team has always had the potentual to be the best team in the world, if it could rid itslef of the childish immature behaviour, and lie by the words there is no "I" in team

Yes, there is no I in team, but there is me. :yk
 
they were also very destructive. The constant factionalism and infighting throughout the 90s meant that team failed to achieve its full potential.

They both plotted against each other's captaincy. Waqar led the players revolt against Wasim in 1994 that saw him replaced with Salim Malik, after Javed Miandad and Moin Khan had been controversially left out of the squad for a series vs New Zealand.

The worst of the infighting was around the 2002-03 period, culminating in the awful World Cup campaign where they were barely on speaking terms. Either you were in Wasim's camp or Waqar's. It was clear some of the players weren't playing for Waqar.

Good post though you have written only a part of damage they have done.
Imo these two should stay away from our youngsters along with other 90s and early 2000s 'legends'.

Pakistan is a cricket crazy nation we will find our way and hopefully able players too who put the team first.

If I have a choice to pick an exceptional talent with 9.5/10 marks but behavior issues and on other side a not great player with 7/10 marks but a selfless die heart attitude and work ethic for Pakistan cricket team I know who I will pick in my team.
 
Waqar isnt the only person with which wasim had feuds. He had feuds with miandad, saleem malik and later aamer sohail, rashid latif as well. Kudos to wasim, he has a charming persona these days and is very humble to endear to us all.

But in his playing days he was clearly the most narcissistic player of the team then. Do read the dawn cricket articles after 1996 WC as well as 2003 WC to get the complete picture about him. It is that same attitude that was then passed on to the afridis, maliks, and now akmal, shehzad which holds no respect for team cohesion and results.

This is the reason the 90's team under-achieved. We remember them fondly because they were super successful in sharjah and would beat india regularly which would make us forget how horrendous they werein other tournaments. Zaleel hi krwaya tha is so called great team ne hume har jaga siwaye england aur new zealand k. We had 14 match losing streak in the 1990's against SA at one point. I used to call Allan donald pakistan's executioner because of it
 
As magnificent as the 2 Ws were for Pakistan cricket, they were also very destructive. The constant factionalism and infighting throughout the 90s meant that team failed to achieve its full potential.

They both plotted against each other's captaincy. Waqar led the players revolt against Wasim in 1994 that saw him replaced with Salim Malik, after Javed Miandad and Moin Khan had been controversially left out of the squad for a series vs New Zealand.

The worst of the infighting was around the 2002-03 period, culminating in the awful World Cup campaign where they were barely on speaking terms. Either you were in Wasim's camp or Waqar's. It was clear some of the players weren't playing for Waqar.

More than that its a great tragedy that they only played together 50% (or so) of the Tests in which their career overlapped
 
I have been watching videos of all the issues around Pakistan's team in the 90s, and there are mentions of "Wasim's camp" vs "Waqar's camp"
Who would typically be in each camp ?
 
I have been watching videos of all the issues around Pakistan's team in the 90s, and there are mentions of "Wasim's camp" vs "Waqar's camp"
Who would typically be in each camp ?

I am just guessing but I think Waqar would have had Inzi, Mushi, Amir Sohail

Wasim would have had the support of Salim Malik, Ijaz, Saeed Anwar
 
I have been watching videos of all the issues around Pakistan's team in the 90s, and there are mentions of "Wasim's camp" vs "Waqar's camp"
Who would typically be in each camp ?

At that time it was PIA v UBL. They were strong teams with Wasim playing for PIA and Waqar for UBL.

They may not have got along all the time, but both were damn good bowlers who gave their all for the team.
 
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Jealousy is common in these situations, both were extremely talented players though I will always rate Wasim ahead of Waqar.

Both of them used to tamper the ball, there are plenty of videos out there. However, Wasim was also extremely skillful with the new ball, whereas Waqar was practically nothing without the old ball.

The two formed perhaps the deadliest bowling combination in the history of the sport, but it was Wasim who always stood out. The height, the pace, the swing, the yorkers, the bouncers, and most of all, the elegance of the greatest left-arm fast bowler in the history of the sport meant that Waqar had to do much, much more to be regarded as one of the world's finest.

Pakistan Cricket is a dark, twisted place as we have come to learn. Almost everything, and virtually anything that is discussed is plausible.

It's sad to think about, but what shot our country's cricket down was the ego we got from who knows where.
 
It’s not that Waqar could not have been great with the new ball. He never really worked on it earlier in his career because he was so deadly with the old. He did work on the new ball later on and proved he could have been just as good. That odi spell at Headingley in 2001 was awesome.

Wasim was so good all round and better no doubt but Waqar with the old ball was probably more lethal.
 
Their pettiness and bitterness destroyed the team. Its one of the main reasons why we barely achieved anything with some of the most talented players we have ever produced. You don't expect players to be best friends but you don't expect them to hate each other, which is what they did. I hey the idiots will be sitting down and wondering why they did all this nonsense.
 
Waqar and Wasim's relationship has seen so many sea-saws, so many twists and turns, that one could honestly write a compelling biography on it. They both have also gone through immense trauma, and internal struggles in trying to define their relationship with each other. The most difficult part for them has been often feigning to the public (e.g., generic media interviews, which has honestly consumed most of their press) during their whole playing careers, and especially after. Whenever they are interviewed or done a mini-documentary on, it's not like the broadcasters/interviewers try to develop a complex narrative. It is build around their 'partnership', and very few scratch beyond the surface, and even if they do, it's in passing (even Sky Sports). There is a lot to be explored, but it's never been done.

This is a relationship that has seen it all: From developing an insane 'on-the-pitch' bowling duo (89-94), backstabbing and playing politics for captaincy (94-2003), jealousy, mistrust, respect, heck to even getting busted for recreational drugs together, to trying to make amends by trying to define a concrete narrative to the world about their relationship post-retirements (but failing miserably, because they are often on different wave-lengths).

They keep rolling with this narrative post-retirement, because it is honestly a huge mechanism for their identity (each other), and no matter how hard they try, they will be conjoined.

Somehow no one, even Peter Oborne (the most celebrated Pak Cricket Historian), has sought to explore this fascinating and immensely tortorous relationship.

IN fact, the best we get is some silly/lazy analysis which states that despite turmoil between themselves and conspiracies, they ultimately brought out the best in each other and they retires as ATGs.

That is such a disservice though to the most complex cricketing relationship in cricket history. Yes sure, out of competition, jealousy, envy, this drive to be the best worked out, often to the benefit of Pakistan (and to their careers), but it brought immense turmoil as well, at the cost of not only Pakistan cricket, but to their mental state of being (e.g., complexes, grievances, wishes) that one can read between the lines, but no one (wants to) explore, because they all want it to have closure with something homely.

This relationship has been complex, turbulent, inspiring, innovative, tragic, all at the same time, and it will continue to be so, and it will govern their personal and professional identities, no matter how hard they have tried to shape a narrative otherwise, they are constrained by their own personalities, which have brought them immense joy, but also let them down, individually and collectively (both on and off the field, during their playing careers, and after).
 
I bet they look back and think why were we so childish? Yes their bowling brought a lot of highs but their acrimonious relationship meant pakistan suffered a lot of lows too

All that infighting camps jealousy and biterness meant pakistan didnt hit the heights it shouldve back in the 90s In fact they suffered a lot of humilation too

That must be a huge regret for them now that they are older n wiser If they had got on they wouldve played a lot more together, they wouldve had much better stats and pakistan wouldve won a lot more than they did
 
It’s not that Waqar could not have been great with the new ball. He never really worked on it earlier in his career because he was so deadly with the old. He did work on the new ball later on and proved he could have been just as good. That odi spell at Headingley in 2001 was awesome.

Wasim was so good all round and better no doubt but Waqar with the old ball was probably more lethal.

Waqar was always good in English conditions both with the new and old balls. Even after his bad patch that started from 96 onwards till the end of his career he was a match winner in england but was pathetic in all other parts of the world. Wasim was far better than him overall in all conditions. Waqar just had an edge over wasim from 1990-94 during his peak but mostly against weaker lineups.
 
Waqar Younis in the interview I did with him recently for Wisden:

From 1995/1996 onwards, Wasim Akram and I became great buddies and remain so until today. We grew out of the issues we initially had. The whole team had issues with his captaincy and the way he was behaving. The whole thing blew up when the Justice Qayyum Report came out and Wasim was removed from the captaincy and for many years, he kept a grudge thinking that I was the one who led the revolt against his captaincy. But, I did not, as there were 13 or 14 players - many of whom were senior players - who were not happy with him as skipper. But for some reason, Wasim felt that I was the ringleader and I was the one behind it, so that I would be made captain after he was removed. It got ugly off the field with Wasim, but on the field, we always wanted to do the best for our country and to outdo each other with our performances. The on-field rivalry was good for the team and also good for our individual performance. Wasim and I always wanted to continue Imran Khan’s legacy. We had our differences off the field, but we respected each other as cricketers, we helped each other on the field, and we learnt from each other as well.
 
Waqar was always good in English conditions both with the new and old balls. Even after his bad patch that started from 96 onwards till the end of his career he was a match winner in england but was pathetic in all other parts of the world. Wasim was far better than him overall in all conditions. Waqar just had an edge over wasim from 1990-94 during his peak but mostly against weaker lineups.

Too many ifs and buts.

Waqar of 1990 - 1995 was the best bowler in that era. Unlike batsmen it's unfair to judge fast bowlers with too many ifs and buts. Wasim was an exception probably because he was good throughout his career but most fast bowlers are only great for 5 - 7 years or so.

Wasim was a more clever bowler certainly and he had more variety. If conditions didn't suit and he was bowling to good batsmen he would set them up. Waqar couldn't do that - he would try to get someone out lbw and bowled regardless of the conditions. But you can compare their strike rates and see how they compared in their respective career peaks and you'll see the difference. If we start talking about ifs and buts then someone can say if Wasim had so many serious injuries like Waqar would he have kept performing?
 
I give immense credit to Miandad and Imran for coming together for Pakistan cricket despite clashing egos and different methods. Unfortunately Wasim and Waqar allowed their squabbles to go into pettiness.

To me their biggest blame is not mentoring Shoaib and feeling insecure with grooming him.
 
Too many ifs and buts.

Waqar of 1990 - 1995 was the best bowler in that era. Unlike batsmen it's unfair to judge fast bowlers with too many ifs and buts. Wasim was an exception probably because he was good throughout his career but most fast bowlers are only great for 5 - 7 years or so.

Wasim was a more clever bowler certainly and he had more variety. If conditions didn't suit and he was bowling to good batsmen he would set them up. Waqar couldn't do that - he would try to get someone out lbw and bowled regardless of the conditions. But you can compare their strike rates and see how they compared in their respective career peaks and you'll see the difference. If we start talking about ifs and buts then someone can say if Wasim had so many serious injuries like Waqar would he have kept performing?

Thats what I said waqar has an edge over him at his peak. And Wasim was overall a better bowler. I didn't said anything like if that could have happened or anything like that. And during the peak waqar took wickets mostly against sri Lanka, England, New Zealand and Zimbabwe which were the weeker sides during those days.
 
Waqar was always good in English conditions both with the new and old balls. Even after his bad patch that started from 96 onwards till the end of his career he was a match winner in england but was pathetic in all other parts of the world. Wasim was far better than him overall in all conditions. Waqar just had an edge over wasim from 1990-94 during his peak but mostly against weaker lineups.

I don't think he was bad in other parts of the world but he did not do well in India in the 1999 tour. He has been very good in South Africa, New Zealand etc too.
 
I don't think he was bad in other parts of the world but he did not do well in India in the 1999 tour. He has been very good in South Africa, New Zealand etc too.
In new Zealand I think he played in test series in 93-94 when he was at his peak and was successful. I am talking about the period from 96 till his retirement when he was ordinary and I don't remember any series in new Zealand in that period when waqar played. In south Africa if I remember he played in 1998, got wickets but if you see those spells completely, I mean not just wicket highlights, he don't have any impact in those matches. And what about Australia, west indies? He was horrible there too during that period.
 
In new Zealand I think he played in test series in 93-94 when he was at his peak and was successful. I am talking about the period from 96 till his retirement when he was ordinary and I don't remember any series in new Zealand in that period when waqar played. In south Africa if I remember he played in 1998, got wickets but if you see those spells completely, I mean not just wicket highlights, he don't have any impact in those matches. And what about Australia, west indies? He was horrible there too during that period.

And that's the reason that shoaib akhtar was always preferred over waqar whenever someone else was captaining during that period.
 
In new Zealand I think he played in test series in 93-94 when he was at his peak and was successful. I am talking about the period from 96 till his retirement when he was ordinary and I don't remember any series in new Zealand in that period when waqar played. In south Africa if I remember he played in 1998, got wickets but if you see those spells completely, I mean not just wicket highlights, he don't have any impact in those matches. And what about Australia, west indies? He was horrible there too during that period.

Tbh wasim wasnt great either from 1996-2001 in tests
Off the top of my head he avges around 28 in that period with about 100 test wickets in 33-34 tests

Yes he had a good series here and there like in WI in 2000 india in 1999 but he was well below avge and at times ordinary in as many series as he was as good at in particlarly england 2001 home and away and in australia 1999
 
Tbh wasim wasnt great either from 1996-2001 in tests
Off the top of my head he avges around 28 in that period with about 100 test wickets in 33-34 tests

Yes he had a good series here and there like in WI in 2000 india in 1999 but he was well below avge and at times ordinary in as many series as he was as good at in particlarly england 2001 home and away and in australia 1999
Stats are not everything and could not always reflects the real impact of a player. I have seen them bowl live and watched their spells ball by ball in that era and I can say that Wasim was far more effective and impactfull than waqar in both formats of the game. And I have seen waqar being thrashed sometimes by even the tailenders and had no fear factor among the teams in late 90s. Only English conditions were exceptions. Wasim may have some series where he don't took wickets but he was not that ordinary as waqar, he had a fear factor among all teams till the end of his career.
 
Sometimes it's not the players themselves where the problem lies, but rather some of their team-mates and backers who have axes to grind.

That just escalates the problems and rather than issues being resolved, they become even bigger.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 1992. Pakistan beat England by 10 wickets at The Oval. Wasim Akram took 9 wickets in the match and Waqar Younis took 6, as Pakistan won the 5 match series 2-1.<br>Those were the days. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/qUzV0aE41q">pic.twitter.com/qUzV0aE41q</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1556917369112563712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 9, 2022</a></blockquote>
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Who does Waqar Younis get on with besides Misbah in Pakistan cricket?
 
In our part of the world anyway no celebrity talks much openly of such intrigues unlike west where sportspersons etc. after their careers may reveal details in books/documentaries. At the end these people will have to meet each other in public and private circles and thus won't give ugly truths.

But IMO, too much is made of rivalry impact on team. More than W vs W, it was toxic fixing culture of 90s that prevented Pak team from achieving potential.
Kobe and Shaq hated each other, Gilly/Waugh & Warne weren't great friends and would openly criticize other camp in private. Still their teams did well
 
Think Waqar gets a lot of flak. It always takes two to tango and Wasim wasn't a saint either.

Waqar might not have been a good coach, but I think he remains one of the greatest fast bowlers in the history of cricket.

Plus with ODI cricket getting played less and less, it's going to get pretty difficult for bowlers to cross that 400 wicket mark. Starc and Shami have been playing for 10 years or more and yet have only reached 200 mark.
 
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Wasim had some pretty powerful backers in the dressing room initially, but then the power swung towards Waqar when UBL became a strong domestic side and more senior players emerged from that team and backed Waqar.

The reality is that if there had been less politics in the Pakistan dressing room over the years, there would have been more success.
 
Don't know internal politics, but they used to compete for wickets when bowling together and it was good for Pakistan.
 
Think Waqar gets a lot of flak. It always takes two to tango and Wasim wasn't a saint either.

Waqar might not have been a good coach, but I think he remains one of the greatest fast bowlers in the history of cricket.

Plus with ODI cricket getting played less and less, it's going to get pretty difficult for bowlers to cross that 400 wicket mark. Starc and Shami have been playing for 10 years or more and yet have only reached 200 mark.

It takes two to tango I agree, but him leading a revolt so early in his career was quite pathetic.

Wasim was a young captain in 1993 and arguably it was a poor decision for him to be made captain at the time in the first place. But Waqar succeeding Wasim would have been an even worse decision. Leading that revolt was too early (despite wasim’s documented bad behaviour). Once he was captain, they should have given him a chance.

If it was someone like Salim Malik it might have been more understandable, but Waqar shouldn’t have done that.
 
It takes two to tango I agree, but him leading a revolt so early in his career was quite pathetic.

Wasim was a young captain in 1993 and arguably it was a poor decision for him to be made captain at the time in the first place. But Waqar succeeding Wasim would have been an even worse decision. Leading that revolt was too early (despite wasim’s documented bad behaviour). Once he was captain, they should have given him a chance.

If it was someone like Salim Malik it might have been more understandable, but Waqar shouldn’t have done that.

tbh 90s was a surreal period of pak cricket. there would be even more that happened we don't know about. everyone barring a few would have skeletons in closet.
 
Competition is good but their stupidity and jealousy destroyed a potentially great team. You fight your battles together and not against each other.I can't forgive either and never will.
 
It takes two to tango I agree, but him leading a revolt so early in his career was quite pathetic.

Wasim was a young captain in 1993 and arguably it was a poor decision for him to be made captain at the time in the first place. But Waqar succeeding Wasim would have been an even worse decision. Leading that revolt was too early (despite wasim’s documented bad behaviour). Once he was captain, they should have given him a chance.

If it was someone like Salim Malik it might have been more understandable, but Waqar shouldn’t have done that.

True.

Even Wasim himself felt that he shouldn't have been made captain when he was and that it was not a pleasant environment.

Appointing a young captain rarely works in Pakistan cricket, we saw it also with Shoaib Malik.
 
Wasim repaid the favor to Waqar in the 2003 WC where he and Waqar were not even on talking terms.
 
Competition is good but their stupidity and jealousy destroyed a potentially great team. You fight your battles together and not against each other.I can't forgive either and never will.

Yup and also coupled with matchfixing, it turned a potential ATG side in to a rabble who became known for the sublime and ridiculous.

The real shame is that the team kept changing so often - all these world class players like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Salim Malik, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Mushtaq didn’t play enough together and even if they did, very rarely were they all United.

The 1996 tour of England was an exception where they all played together and United. Completely formidable side that swatted England away like a fly. But it didn’t happen often enough.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 1992. Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis at their best as Pakistan won a brilliant Test match at Lord's by 2 wickets. The 2 Ws took 13 wickets in the match and shared a crucial 46-run partnership to take Pakistan to victory <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/KrFGjMxdT6">pic.twitter.com/KrFGjMxdT6</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1671516650036756484?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 21, 2023</a></blockquote>
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Yup and also coupled with matchfixing, it turned a potential ATG side in to a rabble who became known for the sublime and ridiculous.

The real shame is that the team kept changing so often - all these world class players like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Salim Malik, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Mushtaq didn’t play enough together and even if they did, very rarely were they all United.

The 1996 tour of England was an exception where they all played together and United. Completely formidable side that swatted England away like a fly. But it didn’t happen often enough.

I hope when they look back they are embarrassed by their antics. On the other hand, knowing these guys, they will still be bitter and jealous of each other.
 
Both were not just great bowlers but also a delight to watch. Their bowling actions and the ability to produce magical deliveries was pretty captivating. I think the only bowler who consistently got jayasurya out when sanath was at his peak was waqar with his inswinging delivery to the left hander with the new ball. Their involvement in match fixing did taint their legacy but the pure talent they were born with ensured that they are still respected and largely forgiven.
 
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