The disparity between India's home and away record in Test cricket

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India last 30 home Tests:<br>Won 22<br>Drawn 6<br>Lost 2<br>India last 30 away Tests:<br>Won 5<br>Drawn 9<br>Lost 16<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/803638716967305216">November 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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[troodon]

India did not have the pacers and never had them.

At least in the last few years some decent pacers have come up who can bowl some mean deliveries.

Shami/BK will win us a series in England next time.

 

[The_Odd_One]

So many away tests were drawn which shows that the batting has been reliable but bowlers have not done well outside home.

 

[Sachin136]

India has the second best W/L ratio away from home and the best W/L ratio at home (they haven't lost a single match) since 2013.

Home: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Away: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

 

[jnaveen1980]

M.S.Dhony was not an inspiring captain especially abroad. He let go of opportunities in SA, then he packed the side with batsmen right after winning a test in England going for 4 straight draws. Also raw pace bowlers were not utilized well. Infact he even took a dig at them whenever he got a chance.

 

[The_Odd_One]

India has the second best W/L ratio away from home and the best W/L ratio at home (they haven't lost a single match) since 2013.

Home: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Away: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

What?

Lost in NZ, England, and Australia since 2013.

 

[Hawkeye]

India has the second best W/L ratio away from home and the best W/L ratio at home (they haven't lost a single match) since 2013.

Home: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Away: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2013;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Yes, stats can be misleading, specially when not properly looked at. Sure, include Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI in away all you want.

Most woeful team after Australia away.

 

[Buffet]

What?

Lost in NZ, England, and Australia since 2013.

I think it may be due to not getting whitewashed and at the same time, other teams getting whitewashed or losing by a bigger margin in away series.

 

[Sachin136]

What?

Lost in NZ, England, and Australia since 2013.

Despite that, they have done better than most other teams. They competed well in SA, NZ and Australia.

 

[Chrish]

That's why it's hard to decide which team is no 1 at the moment.

Btw India, England and SA

India - not impressive outside of SC

England - not impressive in Asia (although more competitive compared to their western counterparts)

SA - not impressive at home unexpectedly

 

[Sachin136]

Yes, stats can be misleading, specially when not properly looked at. Sure, include Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and WI in away all you want.

Most woeful team after Australia away.

England couldn't win a series in WI or Bangladesh, and Pakistan lost a test against them in the UAE. Sri Lanka whitewashed Australia and won a test against India and Pakistan at home. I don't see why those countries should be omitted.

 

[Varun]

Pretty sure it's similar for every other team at the moment.

All sides are HTBs today. England won in South Africa, so props to that - they're probably up top. But then they couldn't win against Bangladesh...

Australia are likely the worst, after Lanka and the West Indies.

 

[Chrish]

Not wining is okay as long as you don't loose the series.

 

[jnaveen1980]

It will all change with Kohli. Kohli got lot of appreciation for his bold approach in Australia for going after the target on day 5.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I think it may be due to not getting whitewashed and at the same time, other teams getting whitewashed or losing by a bigger margin in away series.

But if you see it the other way, India has won just 5 of ther 21 away tests. Pakistan on the other hand has won 6 of their 18 tests.

 

[Sachin136]

But if you see it the other way, India has won just 5 of ther 21 away tests. Pakistan on the other hand has won 6 of their 18 tests.

I used the period from Jan 2013, since there is no point in using statistics from more than 4 years back.

 

[King Kong]

India was competitive in their last tours to AUS, SA and NZ. Won the series in SL and WI. Won a test in England too.

So overall not a bad away record when you compare it with other teams. Mind you all these where under Dhoni(except SL&WI), who was the worst test captain. Under Kohli, things will change.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I used the period from Jan 2013, since there is no point in using statistics from more than 4 years back.

I did not use the stats from pre-2013. Took them from your link.

 

[soso_killer]

I'm curious, of those 20/30 home Tests, how many are against the Western nations?
Conversely, what's the record of SA. ENG &Australia in their last 30 home Tests against Asian/desi sides?

 

[soso_killer]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

 

[King Kong]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

No, I'm not that disappointed and I am an Indian. Things will improve under Kohli. As I mentioned, India was competitive in their last tours to SA, NZ, AUS, ENG(1st 2 tests). Won series in SriLanka(AUS got whitewashed), West Indies(England failed to win in WI).

 

[Zak_Fan]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

No, you would be chest-beating about being number 1 and would probably even mock the South African side for being ranked alongside minnows.

 

[Zak_Fan]

On topic, this is actually not a bad record. You have some relatively high ranked sides whose last few away tours in many countries have been a whitewash. India managing a few wins and many hard earned draws is actually quite commendable for this era.

 

[Napa]

That's why it's hard to decide which team is no 1 at the moment.

Btw India, England and SA

India - not impressive outside of SC

England - not impressive in Asia (although more competitive compared to their western counterparts)

<b>SA - not impressive at home unexpectedly</b>

And getting thrashed 0-3 in India too!

India is by far the best team overall, and it shows in the rankings.

 

[Zak_Fan]

That's why it's hard to decide which team is no 1 at the moment.

Btw India, England and SA

India - not impressive outside of SC

England - not impressive in Asia (although more competitive compared to their western counterparts)

SA - not impressive at home unexpectedly

They are rubbish in Asia too.

 

[Itachi]

We are a home track bully and a bheegi billi outside.... I don't know why this thread surprises anyone. It's a known fact.

 

[Napa]

But if you see it the other way, India has won just 5 of ther 21 away tests. Pakistan on the other hand has won 6 of their 18 tests.

Yes, but it is due to the not losing that India comprehensively outperforms Pakistan abroad. In the W/L ratio the number of losses is not ignored.

 

[Napa]

We are a home track bully and a bheegi billi outside.... I don't know why this thread surprises anyone. It's a known fact.

We manage to draw quite a few matches abroad while other teams generally fail to do that, that is the reason for our #1 ranking.

 

[Sachin136]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

We haven't lost a test at home in 4 years, but India is not as good as stats suggest? India has won in SL (Australia got whitewahsed) and WI (England couldn't win) and competed in SA, NZ and Australia.

I'm happy that all the money is translating into India being the #1 test side.

 

[Napa]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

You got thrashed 0-3 in India and you disparage India's away record? We at least manage to draw a few games.

 

[King Kong]

I'm curious, of those 20/30 home Tests, how many are against the Western nations?
Conversely, what's the record of SA. ENG &Australia in their last 30 home Tests against Asian/desi sides?

1. All are against western nations.

2. 19 won, 4 lost, 7 draws (Included NZ).

 

[Chrish]

And getting thrashed 0-3 in India too!

India is by far the best team overall, and it shows in the rankings.

One series loss doesn't equate to all the achievements of previous years.

I know you won't comprehend this but giving my 2c regardless

They aren't good at home though which def counts against them

 

[Buffet]

But if you see it the other way, India has won just 5 of ther 21 away tests. Pakistan on the other hand has won 6 of their 18 tests.

But W/L is about how many you win and how many you lose. Outside of those 6 wins, Pakistan lost every single test except one against BD. So you are not going to have a decent W/L with that kind of showings.

 

[soso_killer]

They are rubbish in Asia too.

Interesting, a side that has lost one series in Asia in 10 years is rubbish?
Let's put things into perspective, SA have won more games in Asia than the rest of the Asian sides have in South Africa combined.
Maybe I've got rose tinted glasses, maybe you've got a point. If SA are rubbish (having won a series in every country in the subcontinent), what would that make of India and the rest?

 

[soso_killer]

1. All are against western nations.

2. 19 won, 4 lost, 7 draws (Included NZ).

How is that dominant though?
I'm sure SA and Australia has good numbers against Asian sides too, maybe not as comprehensive as India but still dominant non the less. Both countries haven't lost a home series to any Asian side also.

I'm sorry but I'm struggling to see this supposed dominance.

 

[Indiafan]

Wait till Kohli's team tours, his different approach with fast bowlers is going to yield better results

 

[soso_killer]

You got thrashed 0-3 in India *and you disparage India's away record*? We at least manage to draw a few games.

the doctored pitches?
Are we actually comparing away records? SA has lost one away series in 10 years. It took desperate measures to end that 10 year record.
But hey, at least India manages to draw a few games.

 

[Sachin136]

the doctored pitches?
Are we actually comparing away records? SA has lost one away series in 10 years. It took desperate measures to end that 10 year record.
But hey, at least India manages to draw a few games.

Sad to see that despite being beaten so comprehensively away and at home, you still feel the need to make excuses. The only reason matches away from home are more difficult is because the pitches are different. That is how it has been from the start, and won't change no matter how much you complain about "doctored pitches"

 

[Snatch]

India did not have the pacers and never had them.

At least in the last few years some decent pacers have come up who can bowl some mean deliveries.

Shami/BK will win us a series in England next time.

I agree with that. Shami, Kumar & even Yadav & dear I say it Sharma would have been better on those NZ pitches than Pakistan bowlers were.

Right at the moment India looks a far better Test side than Pakistan I'd say in any conditions. And that includes in England, even if their history hasn't been as good as Pakistan there.

If both sides were to start an English series right now, I'd give India a bigger chance of performing well.

Much better batting lineup, slightly better pace bowlers & overall the better spin attack even if it could be argued Shah might be better in English conditions.

Having both Jadeja & Ashwin as all-rounders give India the edge in spin as well.

 

[soso_killer]

No, you would be chest-beating about being number 1 and would probably even mock the South African side for being ranked alongside minnows.

Chest thumping about what? SA dominated Test cricket for 10 years.
My comments aren't meant to take any credit away from team India.
But I'm putting things into perspective.
Winning 5 away matches (are Windies included?) isn't good enough.
And not hosting sides that have grown up in similar conditions isn't good enough for either.

I'm happy with where SA are ATM, still room for improvement no doubt but they're making progress.

 

[Indiafan]

the doctored pitches?
Are we actually comparing away records? SA has lost one away series in 10 years. It took desperate measures to end that 10 year record.
But hey, at least India manages to draw a few games.

But SA's home record sucks. Just because SA is some exception who loses badly at home, doesn't make it somehow a great team. Anyways, its a team in decline

 

[soso_killer]

Sad to see that despite being beaten so comprehensively away and at home, you still feel the need to make excuses. The only reason matches away from home are more difficult is because the pitches are different. That is how it has been from the start, and won't change no matter how much you complain about "doctored pitches"

no excuses, we've always competed well in India. I have watched a lot of cricket between the two countries in India. Those pitches are nothing I've ever seen.
They were deplorable. If the home side was racking up the runs, then it would have been bearable. But to struggle against marshmallow spinners and a depleted fast bowling battery doesn't bode well.
It was a horrible Test series, batsmen never stood a chance from both sides. It made for ugly viewing

For a pitch to have variable spin and bounce from day 1 is appalling. But I do look forward to touring India again, hopefully on what would be normal pitches.

 

[soso_killer]

But SA's home record sucks. Just because SA is some exception who loses badly at home, doesn't make it somehow a great team. Anyways, its a team in decline

How do we suck at home?

 

[Napa]

the doctored pitches?
Are we actually comparing away records? SA has lost one away series in 10 years. It took desperate measures to end that 10 year record.
But hey, at least India manages to draw a few games.

You can whine all you want about "doctored pitches", the fact remains that the pitch was the same for both teams. If your batsmen can't play spin that is your problem.

You need to get with the program. Cricket's future is India, and if you can't play spin, then bye bye...

 

[Sachin136]

no excuses, we've always competed well in India. I have watched a lot of cricket between the two countries in India. Those pitches are nothing I've ever seen.
They were deplorable. If the home side was racking up the runs, then it would have been bearable. But to struggle against marshmallow spinners and a depleted fast bowling battery doesn't bode well.
It was a horrible Test series, batsmen never stood a chance from both sides. It made for ugly viewing

For a pitch to have variable spin and bounce from day 1 is appalling. But I do look forward to touring India again, hopefully on what would be normal pitches.

What is a normal pitches, and who decides that? We have pitches in Australia where bowlers are treated horribly, but no one calls those pitches deplorable. Both teams face the same pitch, and as long as the pitch isn't dangerous, there is nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, this isn't the thread for that.

 

[petercat]

India have no home record to speak of, never mind disparity.
A good side @home no doubt, not as good as stats would translate. Then again they are nothing away.
I'd be disappointed with all that money translating into nothing if I was an Indian fan.

India has lost a total of 3 series at home in last 28 years. SA has lost many more. The aussies have been beating SA in SA for fun but have managed one series win in India since 1960s. England who have also beaten SA in SA have won 1 series in India since early 80s. SL which also managed a test win in SA has never won a test in India.

NZ has never won a test series in India,whle India has won a series in NZ.

Even Pakistan in ther last 3 visits have drawn 2 series and lost one.

So you can deny the stats but you cannot change the facts.India has one the best home records in last almost 3 decades.

And any Indian who has seen how money has developed cricketing infrastructure in India isnt disappointed even any little.

 

[petercat]

no excuses, we've always competed well in India. I have watched a lot of cricket between the two countries in India. Those pitches are nothing I've ever seen.
They were deplorable. If the home side was racking up the runs, then it would have been bearable. But to struggle against marshmallow spinners and a depleted fast bowling battery doesn't bode well.
It was a horrible Test series, batsmen never stood a chance from both sides. It made for ugly viewing

For a pitch to have variable spin and bounce from day 1 is appalling. But I do look forward to touring India again, hopefully on what would be normal pitches.

Just because SA could not play spinners and lost the series the pitches are deplorable?Green Pitches are fine but spin pitches are doctored.

The score reads 3-0 to India.And i dont see any asterix on that scorecard.

 

[Buffet]

But SA's home record sucks.

3rd best W/L ( 2.6) since re-admission.

Won around 70% of test series and 12% drawn.

How does SA record sucks at home?

 

[petercat]

the doctored pitches?
Are we actually comparing away records? SA has lost one away series in 10 years. It took desperate measures to end that 10 year record.
But hey, at least India manages to draw a few games.

How many series have you lost to AUS and ENG at home?

India lost no test series in 90s,Two series in 2000s and in 6 years of 2010 have lost 1 series.SA can only dream of such dominance at home.

What desperate measures?Pitches in India spin since India started playing test cricket.

You are the one being desperate here trying to deny the facts that India has superior record at home than SA,which you somehow cannot digest.

 

[Buffet]

They are rubbish in Asia too.

How many series loss in Asia in the last 10 years for SA?

 

[Chrish]

3rd best W/L ( 2.6) since re-admission.

Won around 70% of test series and 12% drawn.

How does SA record sucks at home?

Not very impressive against Australia and England at home in past 10 years (supposedly their golden period)

"suck" is probably wrong word

 

[Sachin136]

3rd best W/L ( 2.6) since re-admission.

Won around 70% of test series and 12% drawn.

How does SA record sucks at home?

In the past 3 years, SA have lost 2 home series. India hasn't lost a single test in this time period. They aren't bad at home by any means though.

 

[Statsman]

You need very good pace bowlers to win in Aus, NZ, England and SA. Right now none of the Asian teams have them.

 

[Chrish]

South Africa's home record against both England and Australia for last three tours: 4 series lost and 2 draws

 

[soso_killer]

What is a normal pitches, and who decides that? We have pitches in Australia where bowlers are treated horribly, but no one calls those pitches deplorable. Both teams face the same pitch, and as long as the pitch isn't dangerous, there is nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, this isn't the thread for that.

A normal pitch doesn't have variable turn and bounce, especially on day 1.
If its spinning then be so, but it must be consistent.
Problem with those pitches was not the players ability to handle spin.
It was guess work really. One ball would turn viciously, and the next would hold its line. One delivery would spit up the pitch, the next would be ankle high.

In my opinion that's got nothing to do with handling spin as both sides struggled. India didn't all of a sudden become bad players of spin. The pitches had a lot to do with that, not the quality of the SA spinners.

 

[petercat]

A normal pitch doesn't have variable turn and bounce, especially on day 1.
If its spinning then be so, but it must be consistent.
Problem with those pitches was not the players ability to handle spin.
It was guess work really. One ball would turn viciously, and the next would hold its line. One delivery would spit up the pitch, the next would be ankle high.

In my opinion that's got nothing to do with handling spin as both sides struggled. India didn't all of a sudden become bad players of spin. The pitches had a lot to do with that, not the quality of the SA spinners.

All that may be true for SA pitches,not for Indian ones.Your definition doesnt fit all pitches.Your whiniing comes off as being sore losers.

And anyone will tell you that the present Indian batting line up isnt as good againist spin as the last one was.Collectively they may outscore the opposition on turners,but individually they are not absolute guns of playing spin.

 

[Buffet]

Not very impressive against Australia and England at home in past 10 years (supposedly their golden period)

"suck" is probably wrong word

Aus and Eng are the only two sides who have won in SA in the last 25 years. Conditions and team allows it. SA, Eng and Aus will always have chance in these 3 venues as long as team is a strong one.

That's why SA has also won in Aus/Eng. At same time, SA didn't win series in UAE/India in recent years despite having a strong team. Yah, some blame goes to those 2 tests series, but it's about playing in conditions more suited for each teams comes in play.

Now, India can get similar kind of competition from Pakistan. Pakistan has lost only 3 tests in India since SA readmission. Won 3 and others were drawn. SA plays Eng and Aus regularly, but India doesn't play Pakistan regularly. Imagine if you had 3 quality Asian test side playing each other regularly then it won't be surprising to see them winning in each other venues time to time. SL falls short of quality test side, but imagine a better version of SL.

In the past 3 years, SA have lost 2 home series. India hasn't lost a single test in this time period. They aren't bad at home by any means though.

I don't have any issue with admitting that SA has a lesser record than India at home. I was taking exception to SA being rubbish in Asia and SA sucking at home. Both statements have no basis.

 

[soso_killer]

Not very impressive against Australia and England at home in past 10 years (supposedly their golden period)

"suck" is probably wrong word

These records are to be expected when teams from similar backgrounds meet though, especially sides with stability.
SA haven't lost a series in Australia in 10 years. Conversely, Australia haven't lost a series in SA since readmission.
Australia haven't won a series in England in 16 years.
SA also haven't lost a series in England since the 90's. The same for England in SA.

It's an infinite loop. Which is why teams from similar backgrounds must meet regularly. It would be pointless for SA to avoid hosting Eng and Australia in order to formulate a superior home record.

 

[Napa]

A normal pitch doesn't have variable turn and bounce, especially on day 1.
If its spinning then be so, but it must be consistent.
Problem with those pitches was not the players ability to handle spin.
<b>It was guess work really. One ball would turn viciously, and the next would hold its line. One delivery would spit up the pitch, the next would be ankle high.</b>

In my opinion that's got nothing to do with handling spin as both sides struggled. India didn't all of a sudden become bad players of spin. The pitches had a lot to do with that, not the quality of the SA spinners.

All that was also true when India was batting. The team which played better given the conditions won.

 

[petercat]

These records are to be expected when teams from similar backgrounds meet though, especially sides with stability.
SA haven't lost a series in Australia in 10 years. Conversely, Australia haven't lost a series in SA since readmission.
Australia haven't won a series in England in 16 years.
SA also haven't lost a series in England since the 90's. The same for England in SA.

It's an infinite loop. Which is why teams from similar backgrounds must meet regularly. It would be pointless for SA to avoid hosting Eng and Australia in order to formulate a superior home record.

Sri Lanka havent even won a test in India.Not even with the great Murali.Pakistan since 99 till 2007 played 3 series in India won none.

Its better if you dont trivialise the matter of India-Pakistan with,avoiding to play Pakistan to formulate a superior home record. You clearly have no idea about India-Pakistan relations.

 

[petercat]

These records are to be expected when teams from similar backgrounds meet though, especially sides with stability.
SA haven't lost a series in Australia in 10 years. Conversely, Australia haven't lost a series in SA since readmission.
Australia haven't won a series in England in 16 years.
SA also haven't lost a series in England since the 90's. The same for England in SA.

It's an infinite loop. Which is why teams from similar backgrounds must meet regularly. It would be pointless for SA to avoid hosting Eng and Australia in order to formulate a superior home record.

SA was regularly beaten home and away by AUS when either Warne or Mcgrath were there.Only after they left did SA managed to win a series in Aus.While Australia has dominated SA in SA since 1992.

 

[Chrish]

These records are to be expected when teams from similar backgrounds meet though, especially sides with stability.
SA haven't lost a series in Australia in 10 years. Conversely, Australia haven't lost a series in SA since readmission.
Australia haven't won a series in England in 16 years.
SA also haven't lost a series in England since the 90's. The same for England in SA.

It's an infinite loop. Which is why teams from similar backgrounds must meet regularly. It would be pointless for SA to avoid hosting Eng and Australia in order to formulate a superior home record.

But at the same time wouldn't you agree that a per-requisite of being an ATG team is to dominate your own backyard 1st? I mean SA are the best team of past decade but at the same time their home record is relatively poor.

Australia were completely under remodeling in 2008-09 and SA were at the height of their power and they still lost. Same thing happened in 2013-14

So their home record does leave something to be desired and is not as impressive as their away performance

 

[geraltofrivia]

Considering the fact that India won and Pakistan lost no wonder these threads are popping up for 'comfort'. So much for the hyperbole of being the no 1 side in the world seen few months ago.

Post Oz tour it will get even worse. Hard to see a Misbah/YK less team winning in WI even where Pakistan have traditionally struggled and against whom they lost a match at home.

 

[Sin Nombre]

The reason why India is a clear test #1 is that they win every series that they are expected to and convincingly at that.

Dominate every home series and thrash teams. Check.

Dominate WI, SL away (never really play the real minnows in BD and Zim, and Pak). Check.

Compete in SA, NZ and Aus. Check.

India's record in SA over the last 3 series is W2, L4, D2.

India had the best record in Australia of any team during their peak.


South Africa is just a very inconsistent team that might win the odd unexpected series but loses or draws a lot of tests and series that they are expected to win. There has only been a 2-year period between 2012-14 where they were more than that.

 

[petercat]

Considering the fact that India won and Pakistan lost no wonder these threads are popping up for 'comfort'. So much for the hyperbole of being the no 1 side in the world seen few months ago.

Post Oz tour it will get even worse. Hard to see a Misbah/YK less team winning in WI even where Pakistan have traditionally struggled and against whom they lost a match at home.

There is no undisputed number one team in te world right now.India may be slightly better than Pakistan.

 

[Sachin136]

The reason why India is a clear test #1 is that they win every series that they are expected to and convincingly at that.

Dominate every home series and thrash teams. Check.

Dominate WI, SL away (never really play the real minnows in BD and Zim, and Pak). Check.

Compete in SA, NZ and Aus. Check.

India's record in SA over the last 3 series is W2, L4, D2.

India had the best record in Australia of any team during their peak.


South Africa is just a very inconsistent team that might win the odd unexpected series but loses or draws a lot of tests and series that they are expected to win. There has only been a 2-year period between 2012-14 where they were more than that.

The last paragraph is far from the truth. South Africa have been the best team in the world from the past decade and have been very consistent. Recently, they haven't done well though.

 

[soso_killer]

Aus and Eng are the only two sides who have won in SA in the last 25 years. Conditions and team allows it. SA, Eng and Aus will always have chance in these 3 venues as long as team is a strong one.

That's why SA has also won in Aus/Eng. At same time, SA didn't win series in UAE/India in recent years despite having a strong team. Yah, some blame goes to those 2 tests series, but it's about playing in conditions more suited for each teams comes in play.

Now, India can get similar kind of competition from Pakistan. Pakistan has lost only 3 tests in India since SA readmission. Won 3 and others were drawn. SA plays Eng and Aus regularly, but India doesn't play Pakistan regularly. Imagine if you had 3 quality Asian test side playing each other regularly then it won't be surprising to see them winning in each other venues time to time. SL falls short of quality test side, but imagine a better version of SL.





I don't have any issue with admitting that SA has a lesser record than India at home. I was taking exception to SA being rubbish in Asia and SA sucking at home. Both statements have no basis.

That's an interesting theory.

SA in SA against India, Pakistan and Lanka since readmission.

Plyd 39, WON 25, LOST 5, DRAW 9, W/L 5.

Australia in Australia v India, Pak and Lanka

Plyd 44, WON 34, LOST 3, DRAW 7, W/L 11.

India in India against SA, AUS & ENG

Plyd 55, WON 31, LOST 12, DRAW 12, W/L 2.5

As we can see India's home record is dominated by beating western nations. However the western nations have been more severe to the Asian teams in their den. In the case of SA and Australia they haven't even dropped a series
I struggle to see this dominance and superiority. We've dominated India in India as well. Prior to the apocalypse we won 5, and lost 5. Hence they had to stoop low.

 

[soso_killer]

But at the same time wouldn't you agree that a per-requisite of being an ATG team is to dominate your own backyard 1st? I mean SA are the best team of past decade but at the same time their home record is relatively poor.

Australia were completely under remodeling in 2008-09 and SA were at the height of their power and they still lost. Same thing happened in 2013-14

So their home record does leave something to be desired and is not as impressive as their away performance

Yes, SA's home record is not without its flaws.
But like i stated when quality sides from a similar environment meet regularly you bound to have lopsided records. Just like Aus haven't beaten SA in Australia in 10 years.
And no, SA was never an ATG team.

 

[Sin Nombre]

That's an interesting theory.

SA in SA against India, Pakistan and Lanka since readmission.

Plyd 39, WON 25, LOST 5, DRAW 9, W/L 5.

Australia in Australia v India, Pak and Lanka

Plyd 44, WON 34, LOST 3, DRAW 7, W/L 11.

India in India against SA, AUS & ENG

Plyd 55, WON 31, LOST 12, DRAW 12, W/L 2.5

As we can see India's home record is dominated by beating western nations. However the western nations have been more severe to the Asian teams in their den. In the case of SA and Australia they haven't even dropped a series
I struggle to see this dominance and superiority. We've dominated India in India as well. Prior to the apocalypse we won 5, and lost 5. Hence they had to stoop low.

Apples and oranges comparisons is what you seem to like.


SA in SA against India since readmission.

W 8, D 7, L2; %won = 47%

Australia in Australia v India same period

W 12, D 5, L2; %won = 63%

Australia and SA in India in same period

W 22, D 4, L9; %won = 63%


Next time when you want to do statistics, a few tips for you.

- ensure all you are using the same time periods for all your data (using post readmission for SA but including India's results from the 1930s lol)
- ensure that you are not deliberately ignoring results which you don't like (ignoring England's home record against Asian teams)
- don't make a statement about x but include data about y and z (which you do by including SL and Pak)

I know the last series but no need to stoop low.

 

[soso_killer]

Apples and oranges comparisons is what you seem to like.


SA in SA against India since readmission.

W 8, D 7, L2; %won = 47%

Australia in Australia v India same period

W 12, D 5, L2; %won = 63%

Australia and SA in India in same period

W 22, D 4, L9; %won = 63%


Next time when you want to do statistics, a few tips for you.

- ensure all you are using the same time periods for all your data (using post readmission for SA but including India's results from the 1930s lol)
- ensure that you are not deliberately ignoring results which you don't like (ignoring England's home record against Asian teams)
- don't make a statement about x but include data about y and z (which you do by including SL and Pak)

I know the last series but no need to stoop low.

1 Jan 1992, no selective criteria
Was addressing the issue of India's supposed dominance at home, which is entirely against western nations.

Western nations have been as ruthless, especially SA & Australia. An issue of 3 series defeats in 3 decades was brought up. SA and Australia haven't lost a series in 25 years against Asian teams. India have lost three to Western nations.
There no point comparing SA V ENG & AUS in their respective backgrounds, when Asian sides don't meet nearly as enough.

Remember an issue of dominance was brought up in this thread. And i specifically asked who/whom have India dominated at home. One of the users pointed out that all those victories have been against western nations. The thread then escalated a bit, but my post was to prove SA & Aus are just as dominant as India at home against Asian sides. So there's no domination going on as far as I'm concerned.

 

[R0H1T]

1 Jan 1992, no selective criteria
Was addressing the issue of India's supposed dominance at home, which is entirely against western nations.

Western nations have been as ruthless, especially SA & Australia. An issue of 3 series defeats in 3 decades was brought up. SA and Australia haven't lost a series in 25 years against Asian teams. India have lost three to Western nations.
There no point comparing SA V ENG & AUS in their respective backgrounds, when Asian sides don't meet nearly as enough.

Remember an issue of dominance was brought up in this thread. And i specifically asked who/whom have India dominated at home. One of the users pointed out that all those victories have been against western nations. The thread then escalated a bit, but my post was to prove SA & Aus are just as dominant as India at home against Asian sides. So there's no domination going on as far as I'm concerned.

Australia that is who, we've beaten them 7 in a row in India & haven't lost a single test in 12+ years, the last one being 12 tests back.

Oz also haven't beaten us in a series when SRT & all other premier members of the team were available for selection, the 2004 series could've been drawn had the Chennai test not rained out & then SRT came back for the last two tests, we lost in Nagpur but won in Mumbai. Of course that's like saying England's 2005 ashes win was led by a stray ball.

Now let that sink in - lost 7 in a row & not won a single test for 12 tests & 12+ years, that includes some of their very best players ever.

 

[SandyB]

I genuinely believe we'll win more overseas with Kohli in charge. He's building up the pace attack nicely. The way he appreciates Shami for every wicket he takes is great to watch. These simple things help a lot with building up player confidence. Fast bowlers are fickle creatures who need to be petted, encouraged and have their egos fed regularly. "I'm a star in this team !"...
With Dhoni it always felt that wins were only coming due to the batting / Spinners and the Fast bowlers were only there as support cast. Even while playing overseas. I absolutely hated the way Bhuvi was ground to dust in the England tour and Shami too was overplayed to the point of breakdown. Not putting that on just Dhoni though. The management is also to blame . But given the stature and influence he had over the team, Dhoni rarely made attempts to nurture fast bowlers. He just took what was available ATM and just used them till they went bust, then took a fresh set. Kind of like how we use AA batteries.

 

[street cricketer]

You need quality pace bowlers to win outside asia. It's an oft repeated cliché, but it is what it is. Just like you can't win in Asia without quality spinners, you can't win outside asia without quality pacers. That's a reason why India tends to draw a lot of matches outside asia by virtue of its batting, but struggles to win matches because you still got to pick 20 wickets to win a test match. India have come close to winning matches and even sometimes series outside asia only to struggle to close out the innings in the end. It's a record India always has to live with because it hasn't been particularly blessed with quality pacers in its history. Despite all of that, India's best ever record overseas in its history, not surprisingly, coincided in the noughties when India had its best ever team.

I don't know what a record of the previous 30 test matches will indicate because it takes into the results of the previous generation of the Indian team when everyone were past it and in the fag end of their careers. A better statistic will be to analyze the results from the India tour of SA in 2013 onwards as that was the first overseas tour of the present team barring one or two senior players. I actually thought that India's previous round of overseas tours was pretty good actually for a team comprised of rookie players.

India came close to winning the first test at Johannesburg only for the bowlers to fail to close out the South African innings. India again came close to winning the 2nd test in New Zealand after losing the first one but again the bowlers failing to close out the innings resulting in an another draw. That's still better than what the western teams do in Asia when they at no point look like winning a match. The England tour was a mixed one. It started with a dour draw on a pretty dead pitch at Nottingham. Then followed the historic win at Lords on the greentop. That was pretty special akin to England's win at Mumbai four years ago on a square turner. But then for some reason, the whole team just had a dramatic implosion in the series and it was just one way traffic from then on. The England tour (or rather the latter half of the England tour) was the only series in the previous round of overseas tours when our batting capitulated. So naturally it was pretty ugly to watch.

Then came the Australian tour after the unfortunate demise of Phil Hughes. I thought India did well the best amongst all the series in Australia. The batting stood up consistently (barring the 2nd innings at the Gabba) throughout the series and I guess the series could've ended 1 nil in favour to Australia if Kohli had been a bit more pragmatic at Adelaide. Yes the wickets were pretty flat, but I thought it was pretty impressive the way the batting performed consistently under huge scoreboard pressure (they almost always came after Australia had piled up 550 runs) against class bowlers like Johnson, Harris, Starc, Hazelwood, etc.

I do expect the team to perform much better in the next round in 2017. We have a decent pool of pacers in Shami, Bhuvi, Ishant and Yadav while the likes of Kohli, Pujara, Ashwin, Rahane and Rahul have probably matured than what they were two years ago. The pacers are certainly much better than what we had in the noughties, so I would be very disappointed if the team doesn't replicate even a half of what the previous generation did. Above all, Kohli is a driven character and I'm sure he won't let the game drift away like Dhoni quite often did in matches outside asia.

 

[Saffer_XIII]

That's why it's hard to decide which team is no 1 at the moment.

Btw India, England and SA

India - not impressive outside of SC

England - not impressive in Asia (although more competitive compared to their western counterparts)

SA - not impressive at home unexpectedly

Pitches in SA are a bit too bowler friendly. Makes the matches a lottery at times. But there's always a great contest when the away team has decent bowling

 

[Chrish]

Pitches in SA are a bit too bowler friendly. Makes the matches a lottery at times. But there's always a great contest when the away team has decent bowling

I would agree.. England too

There is always chance for opposition to nick a match playing in these two places

 

[shariqnoor]

Dhoni was a very meek captain away from home in Tests. Kohli is a different beast. The mindset he's developing into the Indian team is freaky. I expect India to remain number 1 for a long long time. Kohli will end up with 40 Test wins if not more.

Even if India doesn't have the bowlers, I expect Kohli to still make that team very very competitive. The guy is a real student of the game and understands the nuances of every match situation. Reminds me of Salim Malik. Salim Malik was another player who was a master of the game when it came to match situations.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Chest thumping about what? SA dominated Test cricket for 10 years.
My comments aren't meant to take any credit away from team India.
But I'm putting things into perspective.
Winning 5 away matches (are Windies included?) isn't good enough.
And not hosting sides that have grown up in similar conditions isn't good enough for either.

I'm happy with where SA are ATM, still room for improvement no doubt but they're making progress.

SA did not dominate test cricket for 10 years by any stretch of the imagination. You had a 2-3 year period of dominance and that's it.

 

[Sin Nombre]

^^ as I mentioned previously on here, it is an oft-repeated cliche which is not even close to being true. I asked someone else to define the start and end of this supposed decade but there were unsurprisingly no answers.


Even if I come up with the most generous period for SA which would be 2006-2015, we would end with the following count of weeks at #1

Australia - 46 weeks
South Africa - 41 weeks
India - 21 weeks
England - 12 weeks

All data from here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC_Test_Championship#Historical_rankings


There is no continuous 10-year period where SA have been better than Australia as a test team.

 

[Sin Nombre]

As for saj's initial tweet, it is cheeky of course.

Last 18 tests home and away is a fairer reflection of the current team and not the embers of Sehwag, SRT hanging around for too long. And before anyone complains, the last 18 tests away include tours of Aus, England and NZ so it is a very fair sample.


Home
W14, D3, L1

Away
W5, D6, L7


And this is a record of a team that doesn't play BD or Zim.

Of course, it also tells us that the first 12 tests from saj's tweet performed as

Home
W8, D3, L1
Away
D3, L9

Now that is a really lopsided record and a horrible team away from home.

 

[Napa]

<b>Australia that is who, we've beaten them 7 in a row in India & haven't lost a single test in 12+ years, the last one being 12 tests back.</b>

Oz also haven't beaten us in a series when SRT & all other premier members of the team were available for selection, the 2004 series could've been drawn had the Chennai test not rained out & then SRT came back for the last two tests, we lost in Nagpur but won in Mumbai. Of course that's like saying England's 2005 ashes win was led by a stray ball.

Now let that sink in - lost 7 in a row & not won a single test for 12 tests & 12+ years, that includes some of their very best players ever.

By the time you smack down such claim with facts, other new ones pop up. It is kind of a losing battle really.