The exaggerated myth of Mohammad Asif

[Moiza]

I have always had this debate with my friends over the greatness of Muhammad Asif and I would also like to take the opinion of fellow PP members on this. Not sure if this topic has been discussed before.

Muhammad Asif has always been touted as a symbol of greatness across the cricketing sphere but I think at times it has been greatly exaggerated. For ones who watch football, he is a Ben Arfa more than anything else.

If you look at his ODI stats they are mediocre at best. If you even compare Rao Anjum with him, its a like for like comparison. I know stats don't show everything but come on, the stats should show something at least. I randomly compared him Rao because he isnt some special bowler but both have similar stats. You will see a similar picture when u compare Asif the ODI bowler with Aizaz Cheema. Plus, we also need to account for the fact that Asif didnt play much in Asia so his stats are a little inflated anyway. If anything, Rao has better overall stats than Asif.

Asif Fans - What am I missing here? Is there some aspect of his greatness that is beyond these stats?

Right is Asif, Left is Rao.




Now if we talk about his performance in test match cricket, I agree he was much better there. Now we can compare Asif to Abbas in this case as both are similar style of bolwers and both have played similar number of matches. You will notice here that Asif does have better stats in this case but his stats arent mind blowingly better either. Abbas also toiled on the pitches of Dubai, something that Asif never had the privilege to do.

Right is Asif, Left is Abbas




One final aspect to consider now is the lush green wickets Asif played on in his career. We all see his performances from that one test but his overall performance in Pakistan is nothing to write home about. He got bulk of his wickets in England just before getting banned in a season which was statistically the best season for fast bowlers in a decade. I have posted Anderson's stats from 2009 and 2010 and you will see how much better he performed during the same period.




Anderson's stats during the 2010 season:




So my question to all fans who consider Asif to be the greatest bowler who has walked the face of the earth. What am I missing guys?

I am not disputing the fact that he was a great bowler. He does make a good reels package but his greatness seems to be greatly overstated. Shaheen for example has better stats in Asia than Asif's career stat which comprise mostly playing in SENA countries, in a era where lush green pitches were the norm.

 

[moghul]

I don't have to read your long post, all I know Amir has won two ICC trophies for Pakistan .

 

[Moiza]

I don't have to read your long post, all I know Amir has won two ICC trophies for Pakistan .

This post wasnt about Muhammad Amir but since you brought up the topic.

2009

Afridi, Gul and Ajmal won you the trophy.

Amir bowled well in the final but Razzaq bowled equally well, if not better.

Afridi was the MOTM and rightly so. He was also the MOTM in the Semis.


2017
Again Amir performed well in the final, but the player who actually won us the match was Fakhar.

Hassan Ali and Junaid Khan were the reasons we reached the final anyway. Both took more wickets as well if I remember correctly.


I'm not Amir hater like many people going around now a days but I like to recognize things for what they are and not what I want them to be.

 

[saqib.rai]

Took a leaf out of Shoaib Akhtar's book. Tell a lie so confidently that people think it's true.

I started watching cricket in 2004 so have seen both Asif and Shoaib's career. They were never as good as Steyn and McGrath. But they make themselves look like they were world beaters and won Pakistan many ICC tournaments and important away test series.

Fact is: both never won any ICC titles. Shoaib never even made it to an ICC Test/ODI team of the year. Asif only once made it to the Test team of the year.

But here we have cricket 'experts' who like abusing Babar and Shaheen when both of them have received ICC PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARDS- for comparison Shoaib and Asif combined came only once in the ICC Test/ODI team of the year.

It's the fault of sports journalists as well in this country who don't do their research and give a shut up call to Shoaib and Asif when both start blowing their trumpet.

 

[saqib.rai]

This post wasnt about Muhammad Amir but since you brought up the topic.

2009

Afridi, Gul and Ajmal won you the trophy.

Amir bowled well in the final but Razzaq bowled equally well, if not better.

Afridi was the MOTM and rightly so. He was also the MOTM in the Semis.


2017
Again Amir performed well in the final, but the player who actually won us the match was Fakhar.

Hassan Ali and Junaid Khan were the reasons we reached the final anyway. Both took more wickets as well if I remember correctly.


I'm not Amir hater like many people going around now a days but I like to recognize things for what they are and not what I want them to be.

On that Oval pitch where mediocre Hafeez looked like the second coming of Viv Richards, India would have chased down the target in 40 overs if Amir didn't get Rohit, Shikhar and Virat's wickets.
India at that time relied on their top 3 and it was Amir who got all 3 of them out

 

[Moiza]

Took a leaf out of Shoaib Akhtar's book. Tell a lie so confidently that people think it's true.

I started watching cricket in 2004 so have seen both Asif and Shoaib's career. They were never as good as Steyn and McGrath. But they make themselves look like they were world beaters and won Pakistan many ICC tournaments and important away test series.

Fact is: both never won any ICC titles. Shoaib never even made it to an ICC Test/ODI team of the year. Asif only once made it to the Test team of the year.

But here we have cricket 'experts' who like abusing Babar and Shaheen when both of them have received ICC PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARDS- for comparison Shoaib and Asif combined came only once in the ICC Test/ODI team of the year.

It's the fault of sports journalists as well in this country who don't do their research and give a shut up call to Shoaib and Asif when both start blowing their trumpet.

You have mentioned another big myth of PK cricket. I started watching cricket around 2003 WC and I can only remember extremely rare performances by the great Akhtar. I still think he was a very good bowler but he, in his mind at least, greatly overestimates the bowler he was.

Asif case is very peculiar. People have so much admiration for him as the great bowler to have graced the game but I can only think of good performances from him in very bowling friendly conditions where Anderson was taking 10 wickets or Irfan Pathan was taking a hat trick against us.

 

[Savak]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

 

[Moiza]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

I agree with a lot of the points you made here.

One question. Was he that good a new ball bowler? I mean he wasnt in ODIs, the stats are a proof of that. In test, even in helpful conditions, he was outperformed by his English counterparts. I'm not sure how well the New Zealand bowlers bowled during that series but I remember them to be quite good as well.

 

[Bewal Express]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

I think he used the word average and that should be good for motivation for SSA. It's no bad thing that the guys are brought down a peg or 2 to keep them grounded

 

[Moiza]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

Now a days, Asif is on a downward race to the bottom. His is destroying his own legacy.

I think its poetic justice at the end of day, he got a legacy which he never deserved, now he is the one who is the architect of its demise.

I was a PCT fan who always believed the Asif hype, after yesterday, I had a deep look into his stats to discover the legacy of lies that had been built up. I'm sure many of the fans who idolize him have never had a deep look at his mediocre performance which have been over shadowed by very well made reels.

 

[Moiza]

I think he used the word average and that should be good for motivation for SSA. It's no bad thing that the guys are brought down a peg or 2 to keep them grounded

I think if we hyped Asif up for average performances then SSA too deserves to be hyped for MUCH better performances than Asif.

As fans our responsibility is to hype up our players who play. It's SSA's personal responsibility to not get carried away. Till the day he is performing, I feel it is our duty to support him and hype him up. Even at his very young age, he is surpassed everything Asif acheived in his career.

Asif is a bitter old man who is haunted by what he could have been. I think many of the lies that his blind followers tell each other; Asif started to believe them as well.

 

[saqib.rai]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

The 3rd most famous athlete in the world says Waqar was his idol growing up.

Waqar has made a mockery out of himself by constantly accepting coaching roles and then mental cases like Shahzad and Akmal coming on tv and dissing Waqar.

If Usain Bolt says you were my idol growing up and I used to support Pakistan because you played in that team- then you have won in life.

I wonder how Shoaib and Asif would project themselves if they were as good as Waqar. Woh toh Don Bradman ko insaan na samjhein

 

[Moiza]

Asif needs to learn to give some respect to other players, especially when they are outclassing him what they achieved in a few years vs Asif's whole career.

Asif V SSA

ODI. SSA Miles ahread



Test. Similar Stats while playing in much worse conditions.

 

[Bewal Express]

I think if we hyped Asif up for average performances then SSA too deserves to be hyped for MUCH better performances than Asif.

As fans our responsibility is to hype up our players who play. It's SSA's personal responsibility to not get carried away. Till the day he is performing, I feel it is our duty to support him and hype him up. Even at his very young age, he is surpassed everything Asif acheived in his career.

Asif is a bitter old man who is haunted by what he could have been. I think many of the lies that his blind followers tell each other; Asif started to believe them as well.

Asif was a brilliant bowler until his pace dropped to under 80mph. His lack of pace on flat wickets made him into an up market version of Mohammad Abbas. I think alot of mythology is because he invented a new ball- the wobble seam and he destroyed Ind and also had a great series in SA.

 

[moghul]

This post wasnt about Muhammad Amir but since you brought up the topic.

2009

Afridi, Gul and Ajmal won you the trophy.

Amir bowled well in the final but Razzaq bowled equally well, if not better.

Afridi was the MOTM and rightly so. He was also the MOTM in the Semis.


2017
Again Amir performed well in the final, but the player who actually won us the match was Fakhar.

Hassan Ali and Junaid Khan were the reasons we reached the final anyway. Both took more wickets as well if I remember correctly.


I'm not Amir hater like many people going around now a days but I like to recognize things for what they are and not what I want them to be.

My fault , I didn't even look it was about Asif and not Amir. As Amir has been in the news and discussion lately , I thought it was about him.

 

[ArabKnight]

Asif can bowl a maiden over to Babar.

There’s a reason he was kept away from the PSL.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I agree with a lot of the points you made here.

One question. Was he that good a new ball bowler? I mean he wasnt in ODIs, the stats are a proof of that. In test, even in helpful conditions, he was outperformed by his English counterparts. I'm not sure how well the New Zealand bowlers bowled during that series but I remember them to be quite good as well.

It depends . I think folks assume he would have become the next McGrath had he continued playing but I'm not so sure. Very accurate seamer who became lethal when there was something in the air or off the surface . On flatter wickets, he was obviously not as good.

And ODI wickets could be really flat. I think it was question of pace as well.

Asif was Pakistan's best bowler in the first 15 overs(PP back then) . So, he was good with the new ball.

But guys like Ifthikar Anjum, Gul, even Sami were better in the middle overs when Asif's threat was extremely diminished because of his lack of pace and cutters/reverse etc.

Those skills are even more important at the death and Asif was clearly inferior to Rana, Akhtar, Gul who had effective yorkers and could reverse the ball at good pace.

He had to be used in a very specific way - the later you bowled him, the more susceptible he was to a spanking.

In 2011 World Cup, Pakistan missed Aamir more because he was effective with the new ball and at the death.

 

[kron]

Asif was a tremendous new ball bowler for Pakistan in helpful conditions, probably the best in our history. But he was not an all conditions bowler and he struggled badly in non helpful conditions a lot.

I dislike his arrogance and the manner in which he dissed Waqar's career. He also called all the bowlers in our present team useless.

Lol really?

That is sad he feels the way. Our bowling attack is our strength. If anything it's the best it has been since like 2009.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Asif was a guy who could make you fall in love with fast medium pace bowling in tests (even the early teens) He's probably not a good person but that doesn't take away the genius and complete control he had over the red cherry. One who hasn't seen him bowl will never be able to appreciate the kind of ability he had. Just like people of my age can't decipher the aura and talent of IK or Viv.

Another aspect of the appreciation for Asif is the what if scenario of his career. If he hadn't spot fixed or done all the stuff he got suspended for during his career.
Amir would have still been hailed as a Wasim reborn if he hadn't come back after his ban.

 

[Farabi]

Asif was a brilliant bowler until his pace dropped to under 80mph. His lack of pace on flat wickets made him into an up market version of Mohammad Abbas. I think alot of mythology is because he invented a new ball- the wobble seam and he destroyed Ind and also had a great series in SA.

This.
Building on top, I’d argue that Asif was always an OK bowler in ODIs, even before his pace dropped. Like Abbas, Asif didn’t taste much success outside the test arena. He relied on the movement he got with the red ball, and he continued to be effective in test cricket even after the pace dropped. Just before the saga, he helped Pak win a test match vs Eng in Eng, and vs Aus in Eng in 2009/2010 bowling around 77-82 MPH, and when conditions were helpful, he was quite potent even at that pace.

 

[Nasty Naz]

Not sure who hypes up ODI Asif, it's the Test Asif everyone hypes up and remembers so fondly and rightly so. His ODI career is pretty mediocre & forgettable.

A Test bowling attack in the early 2010's with Asif/Amir/Junaid/Ajmal could have pretty incredible to watch together.

 

[jeetu]

Asif was a high skilled bowler who could be have been a decent successor to McGrath. The similarity was very noticeable they both bowled in tandem for DD in IPL S1. They had uncanny ability to work out batsman weakness. Unfortunetly for Pakistan Asif's ability to self destruct made him less potent and finally ended in infamy.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Asif was a high skilled bowler who could be have been a decent successor to McGrath. The similarity was very noticeable they both bowled in tandem for DD in IPL S1. They had uncanny ability to work out batsman weakness. Unfortunetly for Pakistan Asif's ability to self destruct made him less potent and finally ended in infamy.

But performance was contrasting

McGrath's economy was 6.61 while Asif's was 9.25. Asif bowling average was also poor (37).

And this was when McGrath had retired and Asif was supposedly at his prime.

 

[jeetu]

But performance was contrasting

McGrath's economy was 6.61 while Asif's was 9.25. Asif bowling average was also poor (37).

And this was when McGrath had retired and Asif was supposedly at his prime.

I agree. Asif was no way near Mcgrath / Hadlee in terms of result. He also lacked their drive. The potential was there according to me. I think most people here share same opinion.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

But performance was contrasting

McGrath's economy was 6.61 while Asif's was 9.25. Asif bowling average was also poor (37).

And this was when McGrath had retired and Asif was supposedly at his prime.

That's where the myth of Asif is a bit exposed. But to be honest, he's only overrated if you compare him to McGrath who is arguably the greatest seam bowler of all time.

Even Ambrose had his limitations compared to McGrath and performances are clearly skewed towards helpful pitches. McGrath was a little quicker, a little more skilled and a whole lot smarter/more intense for many years.

He was not the typical hit a good length seam bowler all the time.

 

[SalimBhai]

very good bowler in helpful conditions.

 

[Rafay586]

Regarding Asif's performance and his impact on the dignity of cricket and Pakistan, he should refrain from commenting on our cricket stars and the selected World Cup squad. We should stand behind our team regardless of Inzamam ul Haq's slection. Asif's words only spread negativity, and regrettably, the cricket community is treating them as valuable. Let's remember his past actions and their impact on us and the game. Please show respect to our cricket stars.

 

[Hitman]

He was 10x better than Akhtar who could pull his hamstring from just warming up to bowl. I don't think anyone will sympathise with him though, since he was a serial offender and himself ended his career.

 

[Xoib]

Asif short career can be divided in two halves

I don’t count his debut in 2004 as he as not ready from Karachi 2006 vs India to Pak tour to South Africa just before World Cup 2007 he was one of the best I have seen up there with peak McGrath or Hadlee he operated in 130-140 region got zip of the surface and could make even the best look foolish on most surfaces
When Asif returned from his elbow surgery and first ban his pace had gone down to 124-132 and the skills were still intact but decline in pace meant he needed conditions in his favor to run havoc the moment pitch went flat he was easy to neutralise and from a McGrath or Hadlee his potency fell down to Tim Southee or Stuart Clark level.

 

[Rana]

I think he is right about bowling a maiden to Babar

He makes a valid point. Babar won’t go out of his way to score off good deliveries

 

[DJhant]

Yesterday thought of opening a thread on this, glad OP did it. I checked his overall record, in test 24 + , hugely helped by Srilanka (avg 10) and he was decent in NZ and prob SA. In ODI, he averages 33+. I accept he bowled some unplayable delivery to top players, in that logic Ryan Haris is also a magician. I would rank Shaheen over Asif, any day. He seems to be a more empty vessel, he is no legend neither the Pakistani great IMHO. Babar is 5 times superior to this bragging cheat

 

[gazza619]

Well done on the research. You have made some valid points here.

See the thing is that stats don’t always show the impact a player has had on team mates and the opposition.

Waqar Younus took many wickets in his career due to the pressure imposed by Wasim Akram at the other end. Amir Sohail was made look good because of Saeed Anwar’s brilliance as his partner.

Sport is all about partnerships and if I ever had a choice of selecting a bowling partner at the other end, I would absolutely go with Muhammad Asif.

 

[VForVendetta]

Asif needs to learn to give some respect to other players, especially when they are outclassing him what they achieved in a few years vs Asif's whole career.

Asif V SSA

ODI. SSA Miles ahread

View attachment 136696

Test. Similar Stats while playing in much worse conditions.

View attachment 136697

Those stats are very deceiving because they don't reveal the full picture. First of all you are comparing a guy who's in the middle of his career with a guy who's career got finished abruptly in the midst of his prime. By your own admission the stats you provided in your original post Asif was decent against SENA, he is responsible for some memorable victories against Ind,Sri & SA. On the contrast Afridi's records are absolutely horrendous against SENA, even when he travelled those places he couldn't do much. He is yet to win a match or produce a match winning spell against a top tier team.His record is boasted with supreme bashing against lesser sides like BD,Sri & WI. Obviously in odi's there's no comparison, Afridi wins 100%. But as a pure test match bowler nothing suggests till now that Afridi is a better bowler.He's got ample time to change that of course, so we'll have to wait & see.

 

[Nado_]

I keep saying time and time again, stats don’t always tell you the full picture. You have to watch the actual game itself. Stats won’t show you who broke the vital partnership, who got the wicket of the in form player, which bowler stood out in the match, who performed in the important matches etc there are so many examples.

Although we are talking about bowling here . Il give you a batting example - Imad Wasim averages over 40 and Inzamam ul haq averages just below . Does that mean Imad is better , no. So how do you know Inzi is better? By watching the games he played or by people telling you how great of a batsmen he was , by the experts and pundits saying how great of a middle order bat he was.

 

[VForVendetta]

I have always had this debate with my friends over the greatness of Muhammad Asif and I would also like to take the opinion of fellow PP members on this. Not sure if this topic has been discussed before.

Muhammad Asif has always been touted as a symbol of greatness across the cricketing sphere but I think at times it has been greatly exaggerated. For ones who watch football, he is a Ben Arfa more than anything else.

If you look at his ODI stats they are mediocre at best. If you even compare Rao Anjum with him, its a like for like comparison. I know stats don't show everything but come on, the stats should show something at least. I randomly compared him Rao because he isnt some special bowler but both have similar stats. You will see a similar picture when u compare Asif the ODI bowler with Aizaz Cheema. Plus, we also need to account for the fact that Asif didnt play much in Asia so his stats are a little inflated anyway. If anything, Rao has better overall stats than Asif.

Asif Fans - What am I missing here? Is there some aspect of his greatness that is beyond these stats?

Right is Asif, Left is Rao.

View attachment 136693


Now if we talk about his performance in test match cricket, I agree he was much better there. Now we can compare Asif to Abbas in this case as both are similar style of bolwers and both have played similar number of matches. You will notice here that Asif does have better stats in this case but his stats arent mind blowingly better either. Abbas also toiled on the pitches of Dubai, something that Asif never had the privilege to do.

Right is Asif, Left is Abbas

View attachment 136692


One final aspect to consider now is the lush green wickets Asif played on in his career. We all see his performances from that one test but his overall performance in Pakistan is nothing to write home about. He got bulk of his wickets in England just before getting banned in a season which was statistically the best season for fast bowlers in a decade. I have posted Anderson's stats from 2009 and 2010 and you will see how much better he performed during the same period.


View attachment 136694

Anderson's stats during the 2010 season:

View attachment 136695


So my question to all fans who consider Asif to be the greatest bowler who has walked the face of the earth. What am I missing guys?

I am not disputing the fact that he was a great bowler. He does make a good reels package but his greatness seems to be greatly overstated. Shaheen for example has better stats in Asia than Asif's career stat which comprise mostly playing in SENA countries, in a era where lush green pitches were the norm.

The myth has never really been about Asif the odi bowler or white ball bowler. It has always been about Asif the red ball specialist. In odi's I don't remember him ever bowling anything memorable or winning a match single handedly. Other than that brilliant opening spell against India in 07 t20 I don't think he ever had any impact in loi's. But in test it's different. Pak have historically produced fast bowlers who are more renowned for their activities with the older balls rather than new balls. Sarfaraz, Imran,Waqar,Akhter, Gul everyone has similar legacy. Only Wasim was known to be a potent new ball bowler. So obviously when Pak finally found someone who could talk with the new ball excitement was in the air. He was very different from traditional fast bowlers Pak historically produce. He didn't have great deal of pace or intimidation factor. He is a rare breed who could bowl tight line/length, could seam & swing. Most of his contemporaries like AB, Amla, Clarke, Cook,KP, Sanga etc rate him very highly. So there must have been something special about him.
However I absolutely don't agree with all the comparisons with Mcgrath, he may have some similarities with the old man,but no way he was better than him or could possibly surpass him. Those are absurd ideas. He could have possibly become the pacer from Pak who would have broken the drought of 200 test wickets milestone since Waqar. If he would have fulfilled his potential I see him finishing with /around 300 test & 200+ odi wickets which would have been very good though not necessarily legendary. Also if you are sour on him due to his recent commets about Pak bowling or Babar then I would say that should not be the reason to take a dig on him.

 

[happydavy]

In sports there is no bigger thrill than speculating. People talk about Asif not because of what he achieved but what he could have. Esp. with fans in our part of the world, the ones who aren't playing always look better than the ones playing. Case in point - Sanju Samson!

 

[RyanRyan10]

I keep saying time and time again, stats don’t always tell you the full picture. You have to watch the actual game itself. Stats won’t show you who broke the vital partnership, who got the wicket of the in form player, which bowler stood out in the match, who performed in the important matches etc there are so many examples.

Although we are talking about bowling here . Il give you a batting example - Imad Wasim averages over 40 and Inzamam ul haq averages just below . Does that mean Imad is better , no. So how do you know Inzi is better? By watching the games he played or by people telling you how great of a batsmen he was , by the experts and pundits saying how great of a middle order bat he was.

Both played in different eras and also Imad's average is boosted by not outs.

OP has compared two bowlers of the same era. Though Asif was never hyped for his ODI performances. In tests, his numbers are excellent.

 

[batandballbattle]

A fantastic bowler with the red ball on green pitches. Australia has always been a nightmare tour for any pakistani bowler, so his average is understandably higher there.
Who knows if he hadn't been swayed by greed in his prime he might have developed his game on flatter pitches, but that's something we'll never know

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Ben Arfa lool. Excellent. Don't forget Taarabt and Robert

 

[Saj]

Asif was a genius with the ball in hand.

So skilful and capable of causing problems for any of the world's best.

He had the ability to work out any batter.

An intelligent bowler, a world-class bowler.

You have to be good if the likes of de Villiers, Amla and KP say you were the best.

 

[Babeikh]

Quite simply a phenomenal bowler and a bigger loss to Pakistan cricket than Amir. Unfortunately, he only has himself to blame for his tarnished reputation.

 

[Lampard]

The thing about Asif was that he was a brilliant new ball bowler but at the same time really pathetic old ball bowler. He was just a new ball bowler and would literally get smashed whenever he would ball with the old ball especially in ODI’s. His stats are a reflection of that but if you just pick his new ball stats then he was brilliant. Also it’s not just the stats but the way he made batsmen jump around on the pitch when he was bowling with the new ball. All the top batsmen looked like his bunnies while playing him especially towards the end of his career before the ban. He was the best new ball swing baller at the time before he got banned.

 

[Moiza]

Asif was a genius with the ball in hand.

So skilful and capable of causing problems for any of the world's best.

He had the ability to work out any batter.

An intelligent bowler, a world-class bowler.

You have to be good if the likes of de Villiers, Amla and KP say you were the best.

I am never going to say Asif wasnt a good bowler, great even, but his greatness seems to be really blown out of proportion.

I agree that he was a very good new ball bowler but his overall stats, despite being good, are not out of the world amazing. To be touted as the biggest loss for Pakistan, you need a bit more than the ability to bowl with the new ball. He was never the most wicket taker in a calendar year during all the years he has played.

He may have made some batsmen look like fools, even Parveen Kumar could do that on his day, but at the end of the day there needs to be some end game to that. In test, he played in extremely bowling friendly conditions where his counterparts were also performing as good, if not better. In ODIs he was not better than Rao.



I have broken down Asif's test performance by year below. I didnt do the same with ODI because his performances there are extremely average:

Asif performance by year




2006 - Similar performance by Ntini maintained over longer matches



2007 & 2008 - Outperformed by Steyn by a BIG margin



2009 - Similar performances by Kulusekra



2010 - Outperformed by James Anderson

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I am never going to say Asif wasnt a good bowler, great even, but his greatness seems to be really blown out of proportion.

I agree that he was a very good new ball bowler but his overall stats, despite being good, are not out of the world amazing. To be touted as the biggest loss for Pakistan, you need a bit more than the ability to bowl with the new ball. He was never the most wicket taker in a calendar year during all the years he has played.

He may have made some batsmen look like fools, even Parveen Kumar could do that on his day, but at the end of the day there needs to be some end game to that. In test, he played in extremely bowling friendly conditions where his counterparts were also performing as good, if not better. In ODIs he was not better than Rao.



I have broken down Asif's test performance by year below. I didnt do the same with ODI because his performances there are extremely average:

Asif performance by year

View attachment 136713


2006 - Similar performance by Ntini maintained over longer matches

View attachment 136714

2007 & 2008 - Outperformed by Steyn by a BIG margin

View attachment 136715

2009 - Similar performances by Kulusekra

View attachment 136718

2010 - Outperformed by James Anderson

View attachment 136717

To be honest, Steyn and Anderson are borderline greats themselves.

And Kula was an exceptional ODI bowler in helpful conditions.

Not saying you are wrong but to be beaten by those bowlers that you put forward?

No shame in that.

 

[SamNJ]

An upgrade over Vernon Philander at best.
Never believe in could have, would have, should have.

 

[mominsaigol]

I never saw asif play so I don't know tbh.

 

[Moiza]

To be honest, Steyn and Anderson are borderline greats themselves.

And Kula was an exceptional ODI bowler in helpful conditions.

Not saying you are wrong but to be beaten by those bowlers that you put forward?

No shame in that.

Fully agreed with you there. Steyn and Anderson are modern day greats and Anderson is the possible GOAT test bowler so no shame in being beaten by him.


The issue I have here is that Asif has a cult like following where his fans believe that during the time he played, he was undisputedly the best bowler going around which isn't the case. His fans also seem to believe that had he not gotten banned he would have surpassed many of Pakistani great bowlers. I am just presenting the case that Asif even at his hayday wasnt the best in the world.

People seem to have romanticized the idea of Asif a little too much and the introduction of FB, Insta and YT reels has only further built up the house of lies. I remember IK saying that Asif was a bigger loss to PCT than Amir. There is no evidence to suggest that Asif was that big a loss to PCT.

Asif played at his absolute peak on lush green pitches and got caught fixing before his bowling could get exposed on dead tracks. Like someone said, he is at best an upgraded version of Philander.

 

[Third Man]

I agree with a lot of the points you made here.

One question. Was he that good a new ball bowler? I mean he wasnt in ODIs, the stats are a proof of that. In test, even in helpful conditions, he was outperformed by his English counterparts. I'm not sure how well the New Zealand bowlers bowled during that series but I remember them to be quite good as well.

Even in one of those Sri Lanka series Parvez Maharoof was actually quite close to Asif. I agree he was cannon fodder on flat pitches.

 

[Moiza]

An upgrade over Vernon Philander at best.
Never believe in could have, would have, should have.

Perfectly said.

If anything Asif is a downgraded version of Philander considering Philander kept it going for 64 test which is a fairly long time.

 

[Nado_]

Both played in different eras and also Imad's average is boosted by not outs.

OP has compared two bowlers of the same era. Though Asif was never hyped for his ODI performances. In tests, his numbers are excellent.

Hence why I said you can’t rely on stats , and the op is trying to compare based on stats.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Hence why I said you can’t rely on stats , and the op is trying to compare based on stats.

Stats suggest that Asif was good in whatever tests he played. OP is scrutinizing him.

 

[Savak]

Asifs record against Australia in Australia if you take out that one test match where he made the most of green top conditions is pathetic, in the same innings, even the pathetic Mohd Sami out of the blue looked very threatening and chipped in with three wickets.

Once the ball got older or the pitch flattened out, Asif was never the same bowler and he didn't have the X factor in his bowling to knock out tail enders.

 

[Moiza]

Stats suggest that Asif was good in whatever tests he played. OP is scrutinizing him.

Was he good? Absolutely.

Was he great? Maybe even that.

But was he as good as he think he is or as people make out him to be? Absolutely not! Even in his hayday, he has been outperformed by other bowlers.

 

[chinaman00]

You have mentioned another big myth of PK cricket. I started watching cricket around 2003 WC and I can only remember extremely rare performances by the great Akhtar. I still think he was a very good bowler but he, in his mind at least, greatly overestimates the bowler he was.

Asif case is very peculiar. People have so much admiration for him as the great bowler to have graced the game but I can only think of good performances from him in very bowling friendly conditions where Anderson was taking 10 wickets or Irfan Pathan was taking a hat trick against us.

I agree with your assessment and as someone who has been watching Pakistan cricket since 1998, I would say Asif is a tad bit overrated. People talk about his spot-fixing crimes, but he has also been suspended previously for taking banned drugs and was once arrested at the Dubai airport for drug trafficking. If it wasn’t the royal family intervening at the behest of the Pakistani government, Asif would hav been in Emirati jail for at least couple years.

So the guy was a on a serious mission to destroy his life and career, and the sentimentalist views about him are highly misplaced.

As for performances, I think my favorite would be that Karachi test where he got Tendulkar on his knees. His dismissal of Sehwag in the same inning was also a thing of beauty.

He was a great bowler who was always threatening hence why many great batsmen rate him very high.

 

[Moiza]

I agree with your assessment and as someone who has been watching Pakistan cricket since 1998, I would say Asif is a tad bit overrated. People talk about his spot-fixing crimes, but he has also been suspended previously for taking banned drugs and was once arrested at the Dubai airport for drug trafficking. If it wasn’t the royal family intervening at the behest of the Pakistani government, Asif would hav been in Emirati jail for at least couple years.

So the guy was a on a serious mission to destroy his life and career, and the sentimentalist views about him are highly misplaced.

As for performances, I think my favorite would be that Karachi test where he got Tendulkar on his knees. His dismissal of Sehwag in the same inning was also a thing of beauty.

He was a great bowler who was always threatening hence why many great batsmen rate him very high.

Even in 2007, if I am not wrong, Akhtar and Asif got into a physical fight just before the WC.

The Sehwag and Laxwan balls were beauties. In all honesty, Tendulkar got done by the pitch more so than by Asif. Had the ball bounced normally, the ball would have been middled.

 

[Savak]

Asif was a walking time bomb off the field. If not for the spot fixing scandal in 2010, he would have definitely done something else to end his career. There is not a single person who could have helped him or change it.

He was the least remorseful of all the three players and he was behaving like he didn't give a damn about his career ending.

 

[sam_ahm]

Asif was not very good on flat decks, that's absolutely right. However, Asif would not let you bat on a wicket with some assistance. He was unplayable on green wickets or wickets where there was help for him.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Disclaimer; I've never watched him in his prime live, only through highlights and stats

I always thought he was tremendously overrated, and that a lot of the mystique around him was because his career was cut short so there was a lot of "he would have done even better if he were still playing". I thought he had a nice few years in his prime but lets be honest, when was the last time we had a pacer play more than a few years? I figured he would have gone like Mohammad Abbas did; shake the world for a series or two, then as teams figure you out you just lose your effectiveness then get dropped forever.

But to his credit, some amazing batsmen have called him a great bowler and I can never take that away from him.

 

[sam_ahm]

Took a leaf out of Shoaib Akhtar's book. Tell a lie so confidently that people think it's true.

I started watching cricket in 2004 so have seen both Asif and Shoaib's career. They were never as good as Steyn and McGrath. But they make themselves look like they were world beaters and won Pakistan many ICC tournaments and important away test series.

Fact is: both never won any ICC titles. Shoaib never even made it to an ICC Test/ODI team of the year. Asif only once made it to the Test team of the year.

But here we have cricket 'experts' who like abusing Babar and Shaheen when both of them have received ICC PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARDS- for comparison Shoaib and Asif combined came only once in the ICC Test/ODI team of the year.

It's the fault of sports journalists as well in this country who don't do their research and give a shut up call to Shoaib and Asif when both start blowing their trumpet.

Shoaib was actually good during the period from 1999-2005. He has bowled some really fiery spells and had that ability to get a wicket when nothing much was happening, purely by his pace.

In 1999 WC, one big reason why Pakistan were hot favorites was because of the X Factor Shoaib Akhtar brought with him, Wasim and Saqlain were were Pakistan's best bowlers, but teams were more wary of the threat posed by Shoaib Akhtar.

We can find faults with him, there were times when he wasn't as good, but overall Shoaib was a big Impact bowler.

 

[Rana]

So basically Babar Azam’s dad confirmed that it was Asif who got Babar his first professional contract by telling the people doing his trials to not bother with a trial as he is more than good enough

Respect. Asif played a big role in propelling Babar’s career

 

[saqib.rai]

So basically Babar Azam’s dad confirmed that it was Asif who got Babar his first professional contract by telling the people doing his trials to not bother with a trial as he is more than good enough

Respect. Asif played a big role in propelling Babar’s career

Batsmen like Babar, Virat, Sachin are rare. Would have achieved greatness whether Asif had recommended him or not

 

[Rana]

Batsmen like Babar, Virat, Sachin are rare. Would have achieved greatness whether Asif had recommended him or not

He would have but this itself is a massive revelation

“don’t bother with a trial, the boy can play”

And they took him in.

 

[sindhiboy]

muhammad abbas debuted during the pace pandemic which started in 2018 and is still going on. the 2000s and even early part of 2010s were more batting friendly with many ATG batsmen playing, so that makes asif much better than abbas.

putting stats aside and just by watching, its pretty clear asif was more skillful than abbas

 

[Unbiased-Fan]

Players like Shane Bond and Ryan Harris have more impressive stats than this dishonest clown, but they never brag about their achievements infront of media or don't belittle other players like this Fixing clown.

 

[Bhaijaan]

One of the most overrrated cricketers in the history of cricket. He was very good , an absolute artist but nowhere near as extraordinarily great if you go by some narratives. ABD, KP, Amla played him on tracks where Phillander (a very similar type bowler) was also god level at times.

Asif was a weapon in supportive pitches. On tracks that didn’t have much lateral movement or bounce in them, he was just mediocre.

 

[NishanKonar]

Asif was extremely good on seaming pitches but very pedestrian on flat pitches. Never understood the hype over Asif on Pakistani cricket forums

 

[Moiza]

Asif was not very good on flat decks, that's absolutely right. However, Asif would not let you bat on a wicket with some assistance. He was unplayable on green wickets or wickets where there was help for him.

Asif was not that good on tracks with some assistance. He needed a track which offered quite a lot of assistance and his effectiveness only lasted as long as the ball was new and after that he was exposed.

Some further insight into the matter when you look at the major series he played:




2006 - IND tour of PK - Outperformed by Razzaq in and many from the Indian side




2007 - PK tour of SA. Best PK bowler




2010 - PK plays AUS in ENG - Outperformed by a young Amir



2010 - PK tour of ENG. Outperformed by many others

 

[NishanKonar]

One of the most overrrated cricketers in the history of cricket. He was very good , an absolute artist but nowhere near as extraordinarily great if you go by some narratives. ABD, KP, Amla played him on tracks where Phillander (a very similar type bowler) was also god level at times.

Asif was a weapon in supportive pitches. On tracks that didn’t have much lateral movement or bounce in them, he was just mediocre.

Asif & Philanderer are actually similar. to each other. Another example wud be Ryan Sidebottom who hit a purple patch in English conditions during the 2007-09 seasons

 

[Saj]

Those dismissals of the likes of Dravid and co will live long in the memory.

Totally bamboozled by an artist.

 

[Moiza]

Those dismissals of the likes of Dravid and co will live long in the memory.

Totally bamboozled by an artist.

The performances of one lives in the memory whereas the other is forgotten. I wonder why. Maybe we were used to Razzaq performing by then so we didnt really credit him as much as we did with Asif. Or maybe as fans we remind ourselves of some greatness that wasnt really there.

Razzaq matched Asif blow for blow in that famous test

1st Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Dravid and Yuvraj
Razzaq gets Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dhoni

2nd Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Sehwag and Tendulkar
Razzaq gets Yuvraj, Ganguly and Dhoni

 

[Saj]

The performances of one lives in the memory whereas the other is forgotten. I wonder why. Maybe we were used to Razzaq performing by then so we didnt really credit him as much as we did with Asif. Or maybe as fans we remind ourselves of some greatness that wasnt really there.

Razzaq matched Asif blow for blow in that famous test

1st Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Dravid and Yuvraj
Razzaq gets Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dhoni

2nd Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Sehwag and Tendulkar
Razzaq gets Yuvraj, Ganguly and Dhoni

A career and opinion isn't formed by many on just 1 Test match.

 

[Kriketer]

You just have to watch Asif to realize he was extremely special and rare, one in a generation bowler. No one comes close to his incredible skillet be it good or bad pitches, he was a magician with the ball, that too without much pace. Not sure why he's being questioned here as he played against probably the best batting era.

Lived a short career due to his own doings, but there is no doubt he was blessed with incredible skills. If he had played a proper length then there is no doubt in my mind he would have been the best pace bowler in cricket history.

 

[TheSultan]

Asif was a good bowler, he was a pioneering bowler with the wobble seam and he was a thinking bowler. He worked batsmen out and played with them - and that was his most impressive strength.

A lot of our current bowlers lack that and it would be great if it’s possible for him to work with some of our bowlers to instil that mindset.

However, I do believe people take a rose tinted view of him. Personally I always felt that his lack of pace would eventually catch up with him. We never got to find that out. It is a shame his career was curtailed because we would have found out either way. My hunch is that the early curtailment of his career was probably better for his reputation even if it did rob him of years of international cricket.

Even the matches he played - if he was as great as everyone said, someone like Stuart should never have scored 170 in a test against us. We can say “what did the other bowlers do”, but Amir got a 5fer in that innings, surely Asif should have stepped up. If he was so great he should have polished off the Aus tail in the Sydney test even if the captaincy was that bad.

There’s a lot of discussion about his white ball career - there should be no discussion, everyone knows it wasn’t his thing and he struggled. There should be no controversy with this.

 

[TheSultan]

The performances of one lives in the memory whereas the other is forgotten. I wonder why. Maybe we were used to Razzaq performing by then so we didnt really credit him as much as we did with Asif. Or maybe as fans we remind ourselves of some greatness that wasnt really there.

Razzaq matched Asif blow for blow in that famous test

1st Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Dravid and Yuvraj
Razzaq gets Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dhoni

2nd Innings
Asif gets Laxman, Sehwag and Tendulkar
Razzaq gets Yuvraj, Ganguly and Dhoni

I think you are just basing this on the scorecard rather than someone who actually watched that game live.

Asif was immense in those innings - as was Shoaib who Asif himself credited for creating opportunities for him by shaking up the players at the other end. And I’m not even a big fan of Asif as I’ve detailed in my previous post.

Razzi bowled well in those innings but by the time Raz came on, the India's were already demoralised by Asif and Shoaib

 

[VForVendetta]

I think you are just basing this on the scorecard rather than someone who actually watched that game live.

Asif was immense in those innings - as was Shoaib who Asif himself credited for creating opportunities for him by shaking up the players at the other end. And I’m not even a big fan of Asif as I’ve detailed in my previous post.

Razzi bowled well in those innings but by the time Raz came on, the India's were already demoralised by Asif and Shoaib

It just gives you the idea how misleading stats sometimes can be. Anybody who's watched that test match live wouldn't even think about comparing Razzak & Asif let alone pushing the agenda that Razzak actually was the better bowler, lol . Asif in both innings completely shook the Indian batting line up(best of that era), caught them off guard, they had no clue what actually hit them by the time the match was finished. Then there's Akhter, if you go purely by stats then you will reach to conclusion he was utter trash on that test match, except he wasn't. Those fiery 150+ thunderbolts that he bowled with the new ball in both innings completely unsettled the Indians, It wasn't even about picking up wickets anymore, it seemed he was daring them to either hit him(which they had been successfully doing in first two matches) or to get hit. He softened them up & Asif cashed in. Razzak obviously did a fantastic job since nobody expected his trundling pace to cause so much trouble. But in both innings by the time he came into action already enough damage had been done.
It has become a recent phenomena where everyone is judged purely by stats, it's almost as if impact, context, match situation etc don't matter anymore. Which is the reason why X,Y,Z get goated after some inconsequential soft bashing. I also don't get this new trend where every past cricketer is suddenly getting bashed & disrespected by people who didn't even watch them properly! I mean I didn't watch Abdul Qadir live & have only read how great he was. Based on his pathetic purely statical ENAWI performances should I start discrediting him by saying he was overrated? Even though his contemporaries rate him very highly & older fans here & around the world view him as a top notch match winner. That would be absurd, wouldn't it? That's exactly what a section of new age younger fans are doing & it's not even just Pak fans or simply cricket fans. Lot of Messi/CR7 fans also have this similar delusion & obsession where they can't give any credit to Ronaldo,Zidane or any other past legends. It's an unfortunate trend to witness specially if you have watched enough games(say minimum 20-25 years).

 

[Ali T]

Mo Asif in his day was just awesome to watch but like @TheSultan mentioned, we only got to see him at one stage of his career. Whether it was his peak or whether he would have been found out by batsmen batting outside the crease just like Mo Abbas will remain a mystery.

But being able to move the ball the way he did in dead tracks at his medium pace and get the wickets he got was pretty remarkable.

I don't remember him being as effective with the older bowl and against the tail as he didn't have the pace. Don't think he got much reverse swing either.

 

[kingusama92]

This thread is a great example of stats not always telling the truth.

I mean the shocking claim of Razzaq bowling better than Asif in the Ind series says it all. That's simply outrageous.

Not only were his technical skills exceptional but also his ability to build pressure. I watched him bowl spell after spell of unrelenting bowling with his wobble seam. There were countless times he sucked the life out of the opposition with his bowling while also setting them up. This allowed the other Pakistan bowlers to attack and pick up wickets.

Truly a great Test bowler and for me one of the smartest pacers to play Test cricket for Pakistan. If he only he was as smart off the field.

 

[Hitman]

It just gives you the idea how misleading stats sometimes can be. Anybody who's watched that test match live wouldn't even think about comparing Razzak & Asif let alone pushing the agenda that Razzak actually was the better bowler, lol . Asif in both innings completely shook the Indian batting line up(best of that era), caught them off guard, they had no clue what actually hit them by the time the match was finished. Then there's Akhter, if you go purely by stats then you will reach to conclusion he was utter trash on that test match, except he wasn't. Those fiery 150+ thunderbolts that he bowled with the new ball in both innings completely unsettled the Indians, It wasn't even about picking up wickets anymore, it seemed he was daring them to either hit him(which they had been successfully doing in first two matches) or to get hit. He softened them up & Asif cashed in. Razzak obviously did a fantastic job since nobody expected his trundling pace to cause so much trouble. But in both innings by the time he came into action already enough damage had been done.
It has become a recent phenomena where everyone is judged purely by stats, it's almost as if impact, context, match situation etc don't matter anymore. Which is the reason why X,Y,Z get goated after some inconsequential soft bashing. I also don't get this new trend where every past cricketer is suddenly getting bashed & disrespected by people who didn't even watch them properly! I mean I didn't watch Abdul Qadir live & have only read how great he was. Based on his pathetic purely statical ENAWI performances should I start discrediting him by saying he was overrated? Even though his contemporaries rate him very highly & older fans here & around the world view him as a top notch match winner. That would be absurd, wouldn't it? That's exactly what a section of new age younger fans are doing & it's not even just Pak fans or simply cricket fans. Lot of Messi/CR7 fans also have this similar delusion & obsession where they can't give any credit to Ronaldo,Zidane or any other past legends. It's an unfortunate trend to witness specially if you have watched enough games(say minimum 20-25 years).

Akhtar wasn't good enough to lace Asif's boots. Akhtar was a joke who was capable of pulling his hamstring by just warming up to bowl.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

On that Oval pitch where mediocre Hafeez looked like the second coming of Viv Richards, India would have chased down the target in 40 overs if Amir didn't get Rohit, Shikhar and Virat's wickets.
India at that time relied on their top 3 and it was Amir who got all 3 of them out

These are all assumptions.. people like to think we won championship due to Amir which is nt true.. yes he won us the final.. 50% to Fakhar and 50% credit to Aamir but there is a road to final that we had to cross. Amir did nt play semi final and we were up against English Juggernaut that smashed us for 444 year before and we still won. So to think Rohit , Kohli or Dhawan would have smashed us without amir chasing record breaking 338 is kind of over the top thinking

 

[VForVendetta]

Akhtar wasn't good enough to lace Asif's boots. Akhtar was a joke who was capable of pulling his hamstring by just warming up to bowl.

That's your views which I obviously don't agree with, but that's fine.Everyone is entitled to have their opinion as long as it's not personal attack.
Anyways the topic wasn't about Shoaib vs Asif. It was regarding how vain stats can be sometimes if we don't consider the context. I beleive you had watched that match since you appear to be old enough, so you would get the points I was making about Shoaib. How he had an impact on that match by just bowling ridiculously fast & bouncing out Sachin despite picking only fringe amount of wickets. That was the point I was referring.