The Forgotten Cleansed Iraqi Jews - From 135,000 to <5 in 68 Years...

[shaykh]

Following the creation of Iraq after WWI there were 80,000 Jews in Baghdad out of a population of 202,000...so around 40% of the capital...this has now dwindled to almost 0...considering Jews have been in Iraq for 2500 years what caused this massive exodus?...

1921 - Under King Faisal
'Religion is for God, Fatherland is for everyone'
Faisal was focused on nationalism as opposed to pan-Arabism or pan-Islamism which served the Jews of Iraq well...the 20's and 30's were generally considered a Golden Age for Jews...
The Faisal-Weizmann showed support for a homeland for Jews in Palestine...they held important positions in parliament, education and culture...
So whilst the official line was supportive of the Jews during this period of peace there was was resentment among some Iraqis that Jews were disproportionately represented in government, had a superior social status and had control of the economy (sound familiar?)...
There was also a push for pan-Arabism and the restoration of the Caliphate by some but wasn't getting any traction under the secularism of Faisal I...a rare leader actually in that he was opposed to the British, worked to reconcile relations between Shias and Sunnis, and encouraged respect for Christians and Jews...when he died in 1933 the landscape changed (allegedly he was poisoned)...


1933-1941... - The Growth of Nazism in Iraq
Sunni Palestinians had been coming to Baghdad since 1929...and there was a growth in pro-Nazi activity in Iraq with the creation of Al-Futuwwa and Al-Muthanna which were both militant Nazi organisations that incited violence against the Jews of Iraq...under the influence of Fritz Grobba...the German ambassador to Iraq...
When Faisal died his son Gazi took over and was co-opted by the Germans...this led to a new rules regarding the Jews in Iraq including the likes of quotas in higher education and the banning of Hebrew...
Iraq strengthened it's relationship with Germany and hosted many neo-Nazi Arabs such as Buhan al Din Al-Abbushi who regularly pushed for Iraq to either expel of massacre it's Jewish population...the Mufti of Palestine was also hosted at this time...
Radio Berlin became a popular station...Grobba acquired a popular newspaper and converted it into a Nazi organ...
This fusion of Arab nationalism and Hiterlism culminated in Rashid Alis coup in 1941...

1941 Farhud Massacre
In 1941 Rashid Ali initiated a coup with German encouragement and instigated a war with the British which was lost....and then the first pogrom against the Jews 'The Farhud'...
What followed was the massacring of Jews, looting of Jewish stores, destruction of a synagogue...it took the British two days to intervene in the massacre...
180 deaths, 586 shops looted, 99 houses destroyed...this is the lowest estimate...
Far more chilling is that Jewish houses and businesses had been marked in red by the Futuwwa...and this was prior to the loss to the British...so rather than the massacre being a spontaneous reaction to the loss to the British, it seems that the British victory actually saved the Jews from a much a nastier fate much like had that which had befallen Jews in Europe...

1948-1951 The Creation of Israel and it's aftermath...
Jews generally fell into three political camps...patriots who wanted to stay in Iraq, communists who believed that only communism could bring about equality for minorities, and then the Zionists who believed that only through Palestine could they find security...
Following the defeat of the Arab armies against Israel the Arab nations looked inwardly and retaliating against their Jewish populations...
Edicts prevented Jews from many aspects of public life...
Operating licenses of Jewish bankers were cancelled, they couldn't buy or well their assest, were prevented from travel...
Their properties were being confiscated, they were being refused for jobs...
Life was becoming unbearable and Jews began to escape...usually smuggled out...
in 1950 Iraq tried a new tactic which was to allow Jews to leave legally providing they revoked their citizenship, and had their assets frozen and taken by the Iraqi state...wealthy Iraqi Jewish refugees had now arrived to Israel penniless...
Sequestration of Jewish property had brought in $80m and this was just in 1948...
Between 1948 and 1951 121,633 had left the country through Operation Ezra and Nehemiah...
Only 15,000 Jews remained

1952-1967 Period of relative calm for Jews
For the the Jews that remained there was a brief improvement in conditions under the Qassem government (58-63)
However under the Baath regime of Al-Aref the discrimination begun again...exclusion from colleges, denial of passports
People were escaping again albeit more slowly and by the end of the '67 war there were only 3,350 Jews left in Iraq...

1968-1973 Saddam and the end of the Jews...
Backlash from the '67 war led to the brutal hangings of nine Jews whose bodies were showcased in Baghdads central square...
Saddam removed Jews from private and public sector jobs, froze their bank accounts, revoked their business licenses, disconnected their telephone lines among other discriminatory measures...
Between 1970 and 1973 the majority of the remainder of Jews escaped...

Today
In 2013 it was estimated that there were 5 Jews left in Iraq...and they are elderly so expect that number to get to 0 soon...

Population Shifts
The Arab nations were very adept at cleansing their countries of Jews and Iraq was probably the most prominent example of it in action...being a second class citizen was generally tolerable but being the target of arbitrary physical violence was not...
Here is the population breakdown since 1948...
1948 - 135,000
1958 - 6,000
1968 - 2,500
1978 - 350
2011 - 7
2014 - 5

This population will whittle down to 0 soon...Morocco went down from 265,000 to 2,000...Algeria from 140,000 to >50...

Over 50% of the Jewish population in Israel are Mizrahim who were forced out of Arab countries...and while issues of discrimination exist in Israel towards the Mizrahim it's a far cry from their treatment in the Middle East...

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

They probably left for Israel for better life.

 

[JaDed]

Have you written the post bro? Well written if its the case.

 

[Musakhel]

just proves that jews were ok under ottoman rule, as opposed to arab nationalist.

 

[shaykh]

They probably left for Israel for better life.

There is no doubt their lives are definitely better in Israel but the idea they simply left is a falsehood actually...

Many Jews were part of the Iraqi communist party and sought to improve conditions of Iraqis, many were Zionists who did want to make aliya, and many were Iraqi patriots who simply wanted to stay where they were...all groups eventually found that a future in Iraq was impossible...the Mizrahim generally weren't originally Zionists but found their hand forced...

All the Arab League countries took the same stance in 1948 which was to ban Jewish emigration to Israel...Iraq btw at the same time refused to take more than 5000 Palestinian refugees...

This position changed under Nuri Said who said Jews could 'choose' to leave Iraq providing they revoke their citizenship and relinquish all their assets property and business which became part of the Iraqi treasury...they essentially ensured the departing Iraqis would be penniless on leaving...part of Saids thinking which he expressed publicly was economic gain and to put a strain on the Israeli economy...

The reason Iraqi Jews made this 'choice' was due to the increasing anti-Jewish sentiment and the change in social conditions they faced...

Its easy to say they simply chose to leave for a better life without examining why they chose to give up everything they had to leave in the first place...

 

[shaykh]

Have you written the post bro? Well written if its the case.

Yeh wrote it myself...thanks

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The collaberation between the Nazis and the Iraqi leadership makes for chilling reading.

 

[shaykh]

just proves that jews were ok under ottoman rule, as opposed to arab nationalist.

It was dependent on which Sultan was in power but yep the Ottoman Empire was relatively tolerant towards Jews...Iraqis were actually quite well off despite the destruction of the Empire too under Faisal...they weren't simply dhimmi anymore...the beginning of the end for the Jews came with Faisals death...

Arab nationalism fused with Nazism essentially led to a complete exodus of Jews from the Arab world...

 

[Saeed]

Wouldn't Arabs be considered the same as Jews under Nazi ideology? After all both Jews and Arabs are considered to be semitic.

Looking at the Iraq now I bet they are glad they are not living under a sectarian government. No surprise they are so hostile to Arab Muslims. They have been treated and chased out of their homes the same way as Palestinians.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Why they wanted Jews out?

 

[shaykh]

Wouldn't Arabs be considered the same as Jews under Nazi ideology? After all both Jews and Arabs are considered to be semitic.

Looking at the Iraq now I bet they are glad they are not living under a sectarian government. No surprise they are so hostile to Arab Muslims. They have been treated and chased out of their homes the same way as Palestinians.

Hitler saw Arabs and Jews as distinct...and saw them as ethnic groups...so even in Israel today an Iraqi isn't an Arab Jew although that would make perfect sense to me...

Hitler was generally ambivalent towards Muslims especially...and saw them as a natural ally against the Jews and the British...

Mizrahim in Israel who form half the population are known to be more right wing in Israel...the left wing tend to be Ashkenazim (Europeans) who have had no experience of living under Arab rule...so whilst it might not be right one can empathise somewhat with why the Mizrahim sway to the right more...850,000 of them were treated terribly by the Arab leaders of the time...and many prominent Palestinians like Amin Al-Husseini were also prominent Nazis who contributed to their cleansing in the Middle East...

 

[Madplayer]

Faisal wasn't even from mesopotamia was he? He was made the king by colonialists iirc.

 

[hussain123]

They probably left for Israel for better life.

This.obviously the 8 to 9 million jews living in israel didn't desecend from the heavens.every ones looks for greener pastures so did they i suppose.

 

[enkidu_]

There was an Iraqi Jewish intellectual, Naeim Giladi, who wrote a book on how the Mossad supposedly orchestrated the mass exodus of Jews from Arab lands, basically not only the fulfill the premises of Zionism, but also because they needed cheap labour for their growing industries (the Asheknazi Jews - from Europe - being less into such menial jobs).

Even if we admit it's true, that doesn't de-responsibilize Arab nationalism from its rabid chauvinism, which also targeted other ethnic minorities in the region.

The ideological wedding with Nazism/Fascism was quite tangential (because of anti British pragmatism), but in some segments of the Ba'ath (in Syria and Iraq) particularly it was genuine, with translations of Nazi literature lasting for decades, and also the reception of Nazi officials escaping Europe.

Saddam Hussein (who's hanging anniversary has reached its tenth year recently) tried to foment a more "inclusive" Arab nationalism, incorporating everything from Sumer up to medieval Islam : but the anti Semitism was so permanent that instead of welcoming them in his meta narrative (Babylonian Jews were the most influential of Jewry for millenia), in his very last words he kept demonizing them.

The Arab world needs a complete revolutionary overhaul when it comes to the "Jewish question".

 

[shaykh]

There was an Iraqi Jewish intellectual, Naeim Giladi, who wrote a book on how the Mossad supposedly orchestrated the mass exodus of Jews from Arab lands, basically not only the fulfill the premises of Zionism, but also because they needed cheap labour for their growing industries (the Asheknazi Jews - from Europe - being less into such menial jobs).

Even if we admit it's true, that doesn't de-responsibilize Arab nationalism from its rabid chauvinism, which also targeted other ethnic minorities in the region.

The ideological wedding with Nazism/Fascism was quite tangential (because of anti British pragmatism), but in some segments of the Ba'ath (in Syria and Iraq) particularly it was genuine, with translations of Nazi literature lasting for decades, and also the reception of Nazi officials escaping Europe.

Saddam Hussein (who's hanging anniversary has reached its tenth year recently) tried to foment a more "inclusive" Arab nationalism, incorporating everything from Sumer up to medieval Islam : but the anti Semitism was so permanent that instead of welcoming them in his meta narrative (Babylonian Jews were the most influential of Jewry for millenia), in his very last words he kept demonizing them.

The Arab world needs a complete revolutionary overhaul when it comes to the "Jewish question".

Hmm some things don't add up there...the Baghdad bombings of 1951 are argued by Giladi and some others as being a Jewish plot to get Iraqis to leave...

Here is what doesn't add up is many Iraqis were already trying to leave...Nuri Said was actually annoyed that the Israelis weren't taking enough of them...Israel if anything was worried about how it was going to cope with such a huge influx of refugees from the Middle East...

Nazism had already made life in Iraq untenable for most Jews...id argue that the bombings in Baghdad did make things worse but were hardly a reason for Jews to leave...they were already leaving in their droves and had more than enough reasons to...

86,000 had already registered to leave BEFORE the bombing...why then when Jews were constantly leaving was there a need to bomb anything?...it makes little sense really...

The ideological wedding you speak of had a much bigger impact on the exodus of Iraqi Jews...much like the rest of the Arab world where almost all the Jews have left...

 

[Major]

They probably left for Israel for better life.

So every single one of them left for israel...........................

 

[enkidu_]

Hmm some things don't add up there...the Baghdad bombings of 1951 are argued by Giladi and some others as being a Jewish plot to get Iraqis to leave...

Here is what doesn't add up is many Iraqis were already trying to leave...Nuri Said was actually annoyed that the Israelis weren't taking enough of them...Israel if anything was worried about how it was going to cope with such a huge influx of refugees from the Middle East...

Nazism had already made life in Iraq untenable for most Jews...id argue that the bombings in Baghdad did make things worse but were hardly a reason for Jews to leave...they were already leaving in their droves and had more than enough reasons to...

86,000 had already registered to leave BEFORE the bombing...why then when Jews were constantly leaving was there a need to bomb anything?...it makes little sense really...

The ideological wedding you speak of had a much bigger impact on the exodus of Iraqi Jews...much like the rest of the Arab world where almost all the Jews have left...

If you read what I actually wrote, I basically meant that *even* if all of this was true, it wouldn't have blocked Iraqi Jews from migrating, so much a nauseating anti Semitism was ingrained into the latest emananations of the newly born Arab nationalism. My only point was to be open to all narrative (by the way Giladi doesn't begin his construction from the 50s at all, even if it's one of the major highlights).

Now where I disagree with you is about Nazism : you say that it was an organic inflitration into Arab nationalism, whereas I think that the different brands of Arab nationalism didn't need Nazism to showcase a visceral hatred for the Jews, even if the Ba'ath party absorbed its rhetoric fully in the later years.

Also Nazism/Fascism mainly had an impact in Iraq, Syria and Egypt, not the likes of Morocco or Yemen where Jews have also been ousted (and in Yemen the Mossad played an ugly role now openly acknowledged).

So you can't blame Nazism (and Fascism) for the very much Arabic diseases (toxic nationalism).

 

[shaykh]

If you read what I actually wrote, I basically meant that *even* if all of this was true, it wouldn't have blocked Iraqi Jews from migrating, so much a nauseating anti Semitism was ingrained into the latest emananations of the newly born Arab nationalism. My only point was to be open to all narrative (by the way Giladi doesn't begin his construction from the 50s at all, even if it's one of the major highlights).

Now where I disagree with you is about Nazism : you say that it was an organic inflitration into Arab nationalism, whereas I think that the different brands of Arab nationalism didn't need Nazism to showcase a visceral hatred for the Jews, even if the Ba'ath party absorbed its rhetoric fully in the later years.

Also Nazism/Fascism mainly had an impact in Iraq, Syria and Egypt, not the likes of Morocco or Yemen where Jews have also been ousted (and in Yemen the Mossad played an ugly role now openly acknowledged).

So you can't blame Nazism (and Fascism) for the very much Arabic diseases (toxic nationalism).

Just I wouldn't really call him an academic...I can't say i've read his work but i've seen his claims used by anti-Israel guys and even a basic understanding of what was going on during the time shows that what he has written is essentially rubbish...whether it be his analysis of the reason for exodus, his complete neglect of criticism for Arab nationalism and then his complete misunderstanding of the situation in Israel at the time...

I don't think we disagree...i am not suggesting Nazism is the cause of anything in the Middle East...rather it is a natural ideology to go side by side with the Arabs at the time...Husseini of course reached out to the Nazis not the other way round...the Arabs indeed had their own problems with toxic nationalism...

Out of interest what are you referring to in Yemen?...the disaster of Operation Magic Carpet or the allegation of missing babies?...

 

[Yossarian]

The creation of Israel - and not just since when it came into being in 1948, but also all the events and factors that led to it, such as the emergence of Zionism, the British capture of Ottoman territories in the Levant, Balfour Declaration, Mandate of Palestine, just to name a few.

No point in selectively picking a particular point in time to prove some point or other without looking at all the background and historical factors leading up to it.

Following the creation of Iraq after WWI there were 80,000 Jews in Baghdad out of a population of 202,000...so around 40% of the capital...this has now dwindled to almost 0...considering Jews have been in Iraq for 2500 years what caused this massive exodus?...

Otherwise you could argue as to why there were still 80,000 Jews in Baghdad as of the end of WW1 if it was as simple as blaming it on some anti Jewish sentiment amongst Muslims which appears to be the implication and the hidden agenda of the OP.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wasnt King Faisal an ally of Zionists and installed by Britain?

Zionists seem to be the biggest enemies of Jews, not Arabs or Muslims.

 

[shaykh]

The creation of Israel - and not just since when it came into being in 1948, but also all the events and factors that led to it, such as the emergence of Zionism, the British capture of Ottoman territories in the Levant, Balfour Declaration, Mandate of Palestine, just to name a few.

No point in selectively picking a particular point in time to prove some point or other without looking at all the background and historical factors leading up to it.

Otherwise you could argue as to why there were still 80,000 Jews in Baghdad as of the end of WW1 if it was as simple as blaming it on some anti Jewish sentiment amongst Muslims which appears to be the implication and the hidden agenda of the OP.

Did you actually read beyond the first three lines?...feel free to discuss points instead of reverting to your standard ad-hominem form...

 

[Yossarian]

Did you actually read beyond the first three lines?...feel free to discuss points instead of reverting to your standard ad-hominem form...

Why pick on the creation of Iraq as the starting point? Why not also show the Jewish population numbers going further back a century or two, and the fluctuations, if any, of the numbers during those periods, along with reasons why? At least that will show whether (or not, as the case may be) the creation of Iraq was also a critical factor (since you specifically use the phrase "Following the creation of Iraq ").
Seems as if its a carefully selected point in time, along with a deliberately emotive choice of thread title by use of the word "Cleansed". An agenda if ever there was one.

It's the equivalent of solely focusing on the events of the Nazi holocaust from the start of WW2 onwards without delving into the factors that led to the Nazis coming into power and offering some insight as to what justifications the Nazis used in picking their victims and why the rest of the German population by and large not only did nothing to prevent it, but tens of thousands of Germans actively participated in the holocaust, by rounding up the victims, creating the transport infrastructure, building and running the camps and gas chambers .....

 

[shaykh]

Wasnt King Faisal an ally of Zionists and installed by Britain?

Zionists seem to be the biggest enemies of Jews, not Arabs or Muslims.

Faisal was installed by the British but as with everything its all too easy to simply view him as a British stooge...after he was shafted by Britain and lost Syria he accepted Iraq...and his legacy is less as a client and more of someone who fought to establish political independence without obligation to the British...they had threatened to depose him at one point...

He actually wanted to unify the people and was liberal and tolerant...it's one of the things that gets him hate...after all he was secular which bizarrely seems to get associated with clientdom...this despite the fact that its usually the non-secularist dictator hardmen who the British preferred...

In this regard and with sadness, I have to say that it is my belief there is no Iraqi people inside Iraq. There are only diverse groups with no patriotic sentiments. They are filled with superstitious and false religious traditions. There are no common grounds between them. They easily accept rumors and are prone to chaos, prepared always to revolt against any government. It is our responsibility to form out of this mass one people that we would then guide, train and educate.

I'd say compared to almost all Arab leaders at the time he actually inspired a patriotism based on tolerance and fraternity...and he didn’t rely on religion to justify his, or any group’s, claim to power...

As for his support of Zionism he seemed to support migration but didn't appear to support the idea of a separate state...Faisal himself wanted an Arab Kingdom which included Palestine...

“We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in race (and) have suffered similar oppression at the hands of powers stronger than themselves…. We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement…. We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home…. People less informed and less responsible than our leaders and yours, ignoring the need for co-operation of the Arabs and Zionists, have been trying to exploit the local difficulties that must necessarily arise in Palestine in the early stage of our movements.”

Prior to his death he had changed his tact somewhat but still spoke with a human tone...

He asked the British to limit Jewish migration and land sales, for fear that “otherwise in the near future the Arabs would either be squeezed out of Palestine or reduced to economic and social servitude.”

So in terms of his legacy i'd say he wasn't really a British client...ever since he got shafted by the Sykes Picot agreement and his support for Zionism was essentially to do with Jewish migration rather than the creation of a state...

As for your final comment...thats a real stretch considering Mizrahim wouldn't exchange their lives under Arab rule for the ones they have now...and of course neither would the Europeans...one can disagree with Israel if they want but it is certainly a victory for Jews...just like Muslims who search for that Caliphate that will offer them protection...

 

[shaykh]

Why pick on the creation of Iraq as the starting point? Why not also show the Jewish population numbers going further back a century or two, and the fluctuations, if any, of the numbers during those periods, along with reasons why? At least that will show whether (or not, as the case may be) the creation of Iraq was also a critical factor (since you specifically use the phrase "Following the creation of Iraq ").
Seems as if its a carefully selected point in time, along with a deliberately emotive choice of thread title by use of the word "Cleansed". An agenda if ever there was one.

It's the equivalent of solely focusing on the events of the Nazi holocaust from the start of WW2 onwards without delving into the factors that led to the Nazis coming into power and offering some insight as to what justifications the Nazis used in picking their victims and why the rest of the German population by and large not only did nothing to prevent it, but tens of thousands of Germans actively participated in the holocaust, by rounding up the victims, creating the transport infrastructure, building and running the camps and gas chambers .....

Cleansing seems an apt word really...emotive yes...but also accurate...

I have indeed discussed Zionism in my original post...and said that Iraq was interesting because most Iraqis were not actually Zionists until the oppression they faced made their positions in Iraq untenable...

I started with King Faisal's reign because it showed that Jews were living well in Iraq and were afforded rights and were well integrated...this is despite Sykes-Picot which shafted Faisal and the Zionist project...there were Arab nationalist elements, Islamist elements etc but these were largely kept in check by Faisal...

It seems only apt then to show the contrast with what followed...which was a nasty cultivation of Arab nationalism and Nazism from the leadership followed by a form of collective punishment following the establishment of Israel....

Please do inform me of the gems I have missed from the Ottoman period or the 2500 year Babylonic history...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Faisal was installed by the British but as with everything its all too easy to simply view him as a British stooge...after he was shafted by Britain and lost Syria he accepted Iraq...and his legacy is less as a client and more of someone who fought to establish political independence without obligation to the British...they had threatened to depose him at one point...

He actually wanted to unify the people and was liberal and tolerant...it's one of the things that gets him hate...after all he was secular which bizarrely seems to get associated with clientdom...this despite the fact that its usually the non-secularist dictator hardmen who the British preferred...



I'd say compared to almost all Arab leaders at the time he actually inspired a patriotism based on tolerance and fraternity...and he didn’t rely on religion to justify his, or any group’s, claim to power...

As for his support of Zionism he seemed to support migration but didn't appear to support the idea of a separate state...Faisal himself wanted an Arab Kingdom which included Palestine...



Prior to his death he had changed his tact somewhat but still spoke with a human tone...



So in terms of his legacy i'd say he wasn't really a British client...ever since he got shafted by the Sykes Picot agreement and his support for Zionism was essentially to do with Jewish migration rather than the creation of a state...

As for your final comment...thats a real stretch considering Mizrahim wouldn't exchange their lives under Arab rule for the ones they have now...and of course neither would the Europeans...one can disagree with Israel if they want but it is certainly a victory for Jews...just like Muslims who search for that Caliphate that will offer them protection...

He didnt seem to support, he signed an agreement with Zionists to do what he could to make Jews leave towards Palestine. When discussing the numbers of Iraqi Jews, leaving this out seems a purposeful act to twist history to suit some strange Holocaust type industry propaganda.

Israel is a type of modern day Crusader outpost using the Jewish homeland narative to establish and remain. It goes against the very nature of Judaism, their own scriptures state until the Messiah has returned and the temple is built there should be no return for the Jews as they are in Exile. Not to metion the danger it has caused for Jews and ripped up the middle east into conflict which we can still see to this day. Eventurally as with all previous outposts it will go due to the geographical nature of it's location, power changes throught time. But you carry on claiming Irsael is justified and a good thing for Jews .

 

[Yossarian]

Cleansing seems an apt word really...emotive yes...but also accurate...

It also implies that the 'cleansed' were completely and utterly innocent victims down to a man and played no part whatsoever in any of the events leading up to them being 'cleansed' from the Arab lands. So, for example, no part whatsoever in the actions of their fellow Jews in Britain using their wealth and influence in persuading Lord Balfour to make his declaration, or their fellow Jews in Europe and America in persuading the USA, Britain and other European leaders to create the state if Israel.

 

[shaykh]

He didnt seem to support, he signed an agreement with Zionists to do what he could to make Jews leave towards Palestine. When discussing the numbers of Iraqi Jews, leaving this out seems a purposeful act to twist history to suit some strange Holocaust type industry propaganda.

Israel is a type of modern day Crusader outpost using the Jewish homeland narative to establish and remain. It goes against the very nature of Judaism, their own scriptures state until the Messiah has returned and the temple is built there should be no return for the Jews as they are in Exile. Not to metion the danger it has caused for Jews and ripped up the middle east into conflict which we can still see to this day. Eventurally as with all previous outposts it will go due to the geographical nature of it's location, power changes throught time. But you carry on claiming Irsael is justified and a good thing for Jews .

I don't support anyones right to land whether that be Jews or Palestinians...I don't have a horse in this race...but having been to Israel I would certainly say the majority are happy with the result...the notion that any of their parents have some nostalgia for the past isn't apt either...

The Zionist project was a secular project...Herzl wasn't a Jewish ideologue...he wanted a Jewish homeland...and tbf can you honestly argue that the Ashkenazim didn't have legitimate reasons to seek pastures ashore...Europe was a terrible place to be Jewish...a lot more so than the Middle East where relatively speaking their lives were ok ...you may oppose the result on moral grounds which is fair enough but the resultant Israel has given the Jews a much better life...

In the same way that I wouldn't be supportive of a Caliphate but could understand why a Muslim would be attached to it...and would see an improvement in their dignity, safety and lifestyle...

On Faisal there are many arguments discussing that 1919 deal...fact is besides signing the deal there is very little else to suggest anything...there isn't even much to say that he was even interested in honouring it considering what I have already said which is he wanted to build an Arab state that included Palestine...that by logic doesn't
fit with what your suggesting...he supported Jewish migration as a right of human beings to move...but didn't show any interest in a state and said as much prior to his death...

When assessing leaders there is very much a tendency to pick one aspect of ones reign while negating every other aspect...things aren't that simple...

 

[shaykh]

It also implies that the 'cleansed' were completely and utterly innocent victims down to a man and played no part whatsoever in any of the events leading up to them being 'cleansed' from the Arab lands. So, for example, no part whatsoever in the actions of their fellow Jews in Britain using their wealth and influence in persuading Lord Balfour to make his declaration, or their fellow Jews in Europe and America in persuading the USA, Britain and other European leaders to create the state if Israel.

Last time I checked I was writing about Iraq...the reason i'm writing about Iraq actually is because Zionism didn't really catch on there until the hostility towards Jews begun...if you want to blame the Iraqis for being Jewish then go ahead...but the fact is there existed different types of Jews there...those who were patriots of Iraq, those who were Communists, those who were Zionists and then other types...

Your defence for the Arabs it seems is that the likes of Nuri Said were justified to collectively punish all the Jews of Iraq because of Zionism taking place elsewhere...the long line of Iraqi aliyah came as a consequence of poor treatment of the Jews for being Jewish...

 

[Yossarian]

Last time I checked I was writing about Iraq...the reason i'm writing about Iraq actually is because Zionism didn't really catch on there until the hostility towards Jews begun...if you want to blame the Iraqis for being Jewish then go ahead...but the fact is there existed different types of Jews there...those who were patriots of Iraq, those who were Communists, those who were Zionists and then other types...

Your defence for the Arabs it seems is that the likes of Nuri Said were justified to collectively punish all the Jews of Iraq because of Zionism taking place elsewhere...the long line of Iraqi aliyah came as a consequence of poor treatment of the Jews for being Jewish...

Wrong. You're twisting others posts - yet again. I'm defending no such thing. I'm objecting to your use of the word 'cleansing' in this context, ie the Iraqi Arabs cleansed the Jews from their lands. You know very well that 'cleansing' in the manner you are using it is to say 'ethnic cleansing' along the lines of what the Nazis tried to do, This despite the fact that you also state that the Zionists made agreements with the Iraqis to persuade the Jews to move to Palestine.

So Jewish Zionists wishing to get Iraqi Jews to move to Palestine, so as to bolster the Jewish population of Palestine in order to bring closer to reality the dream of a Jewish state, and the Zionists making agreements to that effect with the Iraqi ruler, is according to you ethnic cleansing by the Iraqis?

 

[shaykh]

Where have I written that the Israelis needed to convince the Jews of Iraq to leave?...

The Israelis had to smuggle out Iraqis facing persecution ...and then Nuri Said wanted to speed up the expulsion process by legalizing leaving ...but only if Jews have up their citizenship and all of their assets ...

The Jews were all willing to give this up because their lives in Iraq had become untenable ...

The Israelis actually struggled immensely with taking on such a large number of immigrants ...this is also well documented with the problems they had with taking on so many Moroccans immediately ...Israelis wanted to bolster numbers sure but not at the rate at which they were receiving new immigrants ...

Expulsion btw is also considered cleansing ...the Palestinians have used this term for what happened to them in 1948 ...so there is absolutely nothing wrong with the term used when describing Iraqis who were forced to leave Iraq ...

The fact that many Palestinians were cleansed/expelled from their homes in 1948 is well known and this is during a time of war ...what countries like Iraq did was the same but the difference being these weren't people at war with the Iraqi state ...they just happened to be Jews and victims of collective punishment ...

 

[enkidu_]

Just I wouldn't really call him an academic...I can't say i've read his work but i've seen his claims used by anti-Israel guys and even a basic understanding of what was going on during the time shows that what he has written is essentially rubbish...whether it be his analysis of the reason for exodus, his complete neglect of criticism for Arab nationalism and then his complete misunderstanding of the situation in Israel at the time...

I don't think we disagree...i am not suggesting Nazism is the cause of anything in the Middle East...rather it is a natural ideology to go side by side with the Arabs at the time...Husseini of course reached out to the Nazis not the other way round...the Arabs indeed had their own problems with toxic nationalism...

Out of interest what are you referring to in Yemen?...the disaster of Operation Magic Carpet or the allegation of missing babies?...

I never called him an "academic", but "intellectual", that he was in the Iraqi Jewish community as journalist before all of this fiasco.

Also, you still overestimate Nazism : Arab nationalism already became anti Semitic while Hitler was still a struggling artist in Vienna, and actually abhorred anti Semitism as he himself precises in his Mein Kampf. The problem I have with you is that you tend to adopt the neo con position which tries to Nazify everything for its own ideological gains. For instance Netanyahu pushing Al Hussaini as the mastermind behind the Final Solution, when historiographers still fight to formalize the role of Hitler himself.

For Yemen I'm referring to the 1000s of kidnapped Mizahim children who were given to Ashkenazi Jews in order to "civilize" them.

 

[shaykh]

I thought Netenyahu was completely wrong with his comments on Husseini ...he tried to imply if I remember rightly that Husseini impacted the Nazis which is complete nonsense ...most people thought his comments were ridiculous also ...

Arab nationalism was indeed toxic in general and being anti-Jewish certainly preceded Nazism but I do feel there is evidence there that Nazism influenced Arab nationalism in Iraq and Palestine ...the role of Grobba and the fact that the paramilitary organisations in Iraq modeled themselves on the Hitler youth ...

This is specific to Iraq and I'm not suggesting that this analysis can be applied to say Morocco ...

As for the missing children thing ...it's no secret unfortunately that the treatment of the Mizrahim by the Ashkenazim was discriminatory and the kidnapped children scandal is a stain on their history ...the Ashkenazim have generally viewed themselves as superior Europeans and that is why you had organisations like the Black Panther movement which sought to improve the rights of Mizrahim ...today while discrimination still exists it is less pronounced than it was in the initial stages ...