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The issue of fake news connected with alleged forcible conversions of Christian girls in Pakistan

saeedhk

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Watch this video and find out how the forced conversion of minority girls goes on unabated in Pakistan. Every day, at least two minority girls are kidnapped, forcibly converted to Islam and then married off to Pakistani men twice their age.

In this particular case, the attitude of Punjab minority minister and Punjab police is disgusting. The father of the victim says that the police officers harass, curse and tell him to go and clean a drain whenever he goes to the police station.

Pakistani media refuses to show such cases of persecution of minorities. It seems to me Pakistani government has told media houses to not air such news.

It is hypocritical for Imran Khan to request others to respect Muslim minorities.
 
There was another case of 13 year old Arzoo Raja who was kidnapped and married off to a 45 yr old man in Sindh. I wonder if she came back to her family.
 
There was another case of 13 year old Arzoo Raja who was kidnapped and married off to a 45 yr old man in Sindh. I wonder if she came back to her family.

She has been sent to a shelter home instead of being sent to her parents. I think she is the first forced conversion victim whose case has been heard in a court.
 
Well let’s see what happens. The government needs to protect these sort of people.
 
Where's the deputy Khalifatul Muslimin, the champion of human rights? When is his Naya Pakistan releasing?? :)) :))
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The ‘news’ of a horrific alleged gangrape of a 14-year old Christian girl in Pakistan is not true - police in Pakistan have said no such incident has happened anywhere in Pakistan - it first appeared on the timeline of this man - a known purveyor of fake news targeting Pakistan <a href="https://t.co/qlLzPZaY40">pic.twitter.com/qlLzPZaY40</a></p>— FactCheckPakistan (@PakistanCheck) <a href="https://twitter.com/PakistanCheck/status/1398552990357803009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Terrible act.

As for Indians jumping like monkeys:

You know what the difference is? All Pakistanis here will condemn this act and call it wrong and call for the perpetrators to be punishers

But when something similar happens in India, certain posters here try to justify it, downplay it and call it ‘ghar wapsi”
 
Terrible act.

As for Indians jumping like monkeys:

You know what the difference is? All Pakistanis here will condemn this act and call it wrong and call for the perpetrators to be punishers

But when something similar happens in India, certain posters here try to justify it, downplay it and call it ‘ghar wapsi”

Forcible conversions of underage girls are not common in India though. It's a bit of a Pakistani speciality.

Beef lynchings are the forte of our fundamentalists.
 
Forcible conversions of underage girls are not common in India though. It's a bit of a Pakistani speciality.

Beef lynchings are the forte of our fundamentalists.
Forced conversions are definitely a issue in Pakistan but doesn’t India have some far right groups doing “ghar wapsi “ campaigns where they coerce people into converting to Hinduism?
 
It's relevant whether it's fake news or not because this is a crime that is rife in Pakistan.
 
How long before Imran Khan blames it on India?

Well, the story originated from a ‘Rahat Austin’. I won’t be surprised if it’s a extremist bakht behind it. Afterall, it is a fact that bakhts have been peddling fake news re Pakistan. They are obsessed.
 
Just another fake report exposed regarding Pakistan by probably sirivasta group or many other Indian anti Pakistan propaganda networks.
 
Where is the evidence of it being fake?? Yes we have a massive problems in how we treat non Muslims. No if's or but's here at all and no it it not India or Israel who are behind it.
 
Well, the story originated from a ‘Rahat Austin’. I won’t be surprised if it’s a extremist bakht behind it. Afterall, it is a fact that bakhts have been peddling fake news re Pakistan. They are obsessed.

Sounds very similar to those Pakistanis pretending to be Jews and Arabs and making anti India post on social media lol.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The ‘news’ of a horrific alleged gangrape of a 14-year old Christian girl in Pakistan is not true - police in Pakistan have said no such incident has happened anywhere in Pakistan - it first appeared on the timeline of this man - a known purveyor of fake news targeting Pakistan <a href="https://t.co/qlLzPZaY40">pic.twitter.com/qlLzPZaY40</a></p>— FactCheckPakistan (@PakistanCheck) <a href="https://twitter.com/PakistanCheck/status/1398552990357803009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
How this is related to news in op, you could have created a seperate thread for posting this
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The ‘news’ of a horrific alleged gangrape of a 14-year old Christian girl in Pakistan is not true - police in Pakistan have said no such incident has happened anywhere in Pakistan - it first appeared on the timeline of this man - a known purveyor of fake news targeting Pakistan <a href="https://t.co/qlLzPZaY40">pic.twitter.com/qlLzPZaY40</a></p>— FactCheckPakistan (@PakistanCheck) <a href="https://twitter.com/PakistanCheck/status/1398552990357803009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This creates a confusion regarding the original news in OP. The above is different from what's in OP and changing the title, it also changes the whole aspect of this thread.

The title atleast should be changed in to "collective news of alleged kidnapping/abduction/raping of underage girls in Pakistan."
 
Terrible act.

As for Indians jumping like monkeys:

You know what the difference is? All Pakistanis here will condemn this act and call it wrong and call for the perpetrators to be punishers

But when something similar happens in India, certain posters here try to justify it, downplay it and call it ‘ghar wapsi”

"Indians jumping like monkeys...."

In many environment, it will be considered hugely offensive.
 
Forced conversions are definitely a issue in Pakistan but doesn’t India have some far right groups doing “ghar wapsi “ campaigns where they coerce people into converting to Hinduism?

What is this ghar wapsi we keep hearing about? Figment of newspapers imagination?

Firstly the power dynamics between different communities in India and Pakistan are different. In Pakistan, hindus are what - 1% of your population? It is possible for the fundamentalists in your society to do kidnappings and forced marriages for underage minority girls while this would not be an easy job in India as muslims are a significant minority in India, officially nearly 15% of the population in the last census. There would be a definite blowback from the muslim community if an underage muslim girl was kidnapped by a fundamentalist in our society and converted forcibly to hinduism. It's why such forced conversions of underage girls are rare in India as it's pretty much rape under the guise of "marriage" and there would be a huge reaction to it once the news gets out, nevermind the legal ramifications of it as marriages of girls under 18 years of age is considered illegal in India and the marriage would get immediately struck down once you provide a valid certificate for age of the girl while this is very difficult in Pakistan as the prohibitory age for girls is 16 and cases would be further complicated by matters of shariah as the forced marriage would be classified as a nikah.

It's why the extremists in our society target lone muslim men particularly those who transport cattle, accuse them of illegal cattle trade, lynch them in groups and disappear without a trace. You can only receive a blowback when people know who are the perpetrators, what can you do when a bunch of unknown far right wing extremists lynch a muslim guy and disappear without trace? It's why I said lynchings are the forte of the fundamentalists on our side. Moreover the extremists create rumours that the victim is a cattle kidnapper and illegal trader and use the mob mentality of villagers to cause lynchings. Even if the guy was a cattle kidnapper, rightly he should be prosecuted under law but in India, the mob frenzy rules and so often many innocent people get lynched after being accused of illegal cattle trader, child kidnapper, etc.

Ghar wapsi cases itself aren't as common as lynchings in India, but then again, ghar wapsi has a different power dynamic. Ghar wapsi involves adult families and unlike forced conversion and marriage of underage girls, where once the girl is married (even if forcefully) and gets pregnant, she is doomed for life with the perpetrator as in our society, very few parent families accept back the girl once that happens due to age old patriarchal mindset. So either the girl is destined to live a life with the perpetrator or is forced into child trafficking and prostitution after a while. Ghar wapsi involves coercion of christian and muslim families by hindu outfits, promising them of special privileges after marriage. Now ghar wapsi mostly involves "re conversion" of poor Dalit christian and muslim families back to the hindu fold by the hindu outfits like RSS, VHP, etc. As all things in India, it revolves around caste as well and the Dalit castes are promised reservation after conversion by the Hindu outfits as a Dalit christian or a Dalit muslim would be considered a Christian or a muslim only (and not as a Dalit officially) and would get reservation under OBC category only (Other Backward communities category) while Dalit hindus are classified under SC and ST category (Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes) who get the most reservation and benefits according to Indian affirmative action system (ST>SC).

So Ghar wapsi can be considered similar to conversions by overenthusiastic christian missionaries which promise the poor Dalits who are already discriminated by their hindu counterparts belonging to the other castes, with social, monetary and economic benefits after converting to Christianity. The difference though is the Dalit christians at least get those benefits while those who were promised with reservation in ghar wapsi have been left with disappointment as the government is delaying then giving them benefits of being classified as a scheduled caste and those who did ghar wapsi have went into hiding as they have been unable to live up on their promises of reservation.

https://scroll.in/article/841812/gh...the-dalit-muslims-they-lured-back-to-hinduism
 
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There are too many Ppers in this thread who have comprehension issues. The video I shared at the beginning of the thread regarding forced conversions is different from the recent fake forced conversion. These are two different cases.
 
There was another case of 13 year old Arzoo Raja who was kidnapped and married off to a 45 yr old man in Sindh. I wonder if she came back to her family.

There was a case of a 12 year old girl Shama Rashid who was abducted in farm territories ind Dehli and taken to a temple by two men. It was captured on camera but the police confiscated the phone and we are still waiting to hear what became of it.
 
Stick to the Topic and refrain from personal attacks
 
There seems to have been a mix up between two cases and people have mistaken one case for the other.

The case mentioned in the OP, 12 year old (at the time of abduction) Farah Shaheen from Faisalabad, is very much true. It isn't fake news. Apparently she was tormented for five months in the custody of the kidnapper.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...g/news-story/a8058dd6927c304f506e3d3b36d79a1c


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The ‘news’ of a horrific alleged gangrape of a 14-year old Christian girl in Pakistan is not true - police in Pakistan have said no such incident has happened anywhere in Pakistan - it first appeared on the timeline of this man - a known purveyor of fake news targeting Pakistan <a href="https://t.co/qlLzPZaY40">pic.twitter.com/qlLzPZaY40</a></p>— FactCheckPakistan (@PakistanCheck) <a href="https://twitter.com/PakistanCheck/status/1398552990357803009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I have no idea what this case is about though and how this fake case got mistaken for a real case of kidnapping and forced conversion which led to the real case being dismissed as fake news.
 
Just for the record, every day, at least three minority girls are forcibly converted to Islam in Pakistan.
 
Forced conversions

Sulema Jahangir Published April 12, 2020 Facebook Count

The writer is a board member, AGHS Legal Aid Cell, an advocate of the high courts, Pakistan, and a solicitor of the senior courts of England and Wales.

OVER the years, the laws applicable to the rights of religious minorities in Pakistan have shifted from being neutral to blatantly discriminatory — from electoral laws, family laws, law on evidence, Hudood laws, redistribution of income through Zakat and Ushr, trust and evacuee property laws, domicile and nationality, to offences against religion.

The discrimination against women belonging to religious minority groups is worse; they become victims of rape, abduction, forced marriage and forced conversion. That it is largely underage girls who are ‘converting’ to Islam speaks volumes of the vulnerability of the converts, and the motivation of those behind the conversion.

Twice the Sindh government attempted to outlaw forced conversions and marriages, including laying guidelines for the court process in the Protection of Minorities Bill, placing an age limit of 18 years upon conversions and enabling better due process. In 2016, the bill was unanimously passed by the Sindh Assembly, but religious parties objected to an age limit for conversions, and threatened to besiege the assembly if the bill received approval of the governor, who then refused to sign the bill into law.

In 2019, a revised version was introduced, but religious parties protested once again. A sit-in was organised by Pir Mian Abdul Khaliq (Mian Mithu), a political and religious leader and a central character in many cases of forced conversions of underage Hindu girls in Sindh. He and his group claim the girls are not forced, but fall in love with Muslim men and convert willingly. In March 2019, nearly 2,000 Hindus staged a sit-in to demand justice for two sisters, Reena and Raveena, who they claimed were forcibly converted and married. The Islamabad High Court ruled the girls had willingly converted and married the men. Herein lies the contention. While there are a large number of cases of forced conversions and marriages, there are also cases where vulnerable young women are preyed upon by influential men who entice them to convert and marry. To what extent can the law differentiate coercion from peaceful persuasion, and could enticement without the threat of violence become punishable?

It is largely underage girls who are ‘converting’.

Pakistan is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states that the right to freedom of religion includes the right to change one’s religion and that no one shall be subject to coercion to change their religion. The European Court of Human Rights has given some guidance regarding the distinction between permissible religious persuasion, on the one hand, and coercion on the other.

According to case law, exploiting a position of power to entice vulnerable people or subordinates to convert amounts to coercion, which should be outlawed. The fact that the default legal system in Pakistan is discriminatory, particularly towards women from religious minorities, coupled with the clout and resources of those preying upon them, implies coercion and urgently requires positive legislation to safeguard vulnerable citizens.

Further, once the women convert, there is no going back, as apostasy would mean a death sentence. In many cases, women are also told that their families are ‘kafirs’ and they cannot meet them. This impedes their access to justice as they remain in the clutches of powerful men. No one hears from these women directly after they ‘elope’. Reena and Raveena’s parents are right to question why they suddenly decided to marry men who already had wives and children.

The Peoples Commission for Minorities’ Rights and the Centre for Social Justice compiled the data of 156 incidents of forced conversions which took place between 2013 and 2019. A vast majority of the girls are minors, with numerous cases of girls as young as 12 years old. Religious groups oppose a minimum age for conversion or marriage on the basis that this is not sanctioned by Islam. Since Sindh has outlawed the marriage of girls under 18, underage girls are taken to Punjab in some cases, where they are married.

Sexual intercourse with a girl below the age of 16 is statutory rape and carries a death sentence, or a minimum sentence of 10 years’ imprisonment. There is no defence. Yet in some cases, the production of a conversion certificate and a nikahnama influences law enforcement to pardon the abductors.

Pakistan has failed to comply with its international obligations to protect non-Muslim women and girls from exploitation by powerful groups and criminal elements. Even worse is the psychological impact on families of minorities who worry when their daughters venture out, and the culture of intolerance that is promoted when leaders like Mian Mithu celebrate another ‘conversion’ and marriage as a victory for the Muslim faith in the local community. It sends a chilling message to our most vulnerable people — that their girls are not safe.

The writer is a board member, AGHS Legal Aid Cell, an advocate of the high courts, Pakistan, and a solicitor of the senior courts of England and Wales.

sulemajahangir@gmail.com

Published in Dawn, April 12th, 2020

https://www.dawn.com/news/1548550/forced-conversions


....
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A 13 year old Christian girl Nayab Gill abducted by a pious Muslim man in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistan</a> and our <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistani?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistani</a> courts ACTUALLY returned him back to her abductor leaving their poor parents crying for help. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Justice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Justice</a> <a href="https://t.co/DjN9eBD1YT">pic.twitter.com/DjN9eBD1YT</a></p>— Charles Catholic (@Charles93180005) <a href="https://twitter.com/Charles93180005/status/1400685325295382537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can understand crime happening as there are criminals everywhere. But how does a court send an abducted minor with his abductor instead of the parents on the pretext of "marriage". At the moment, it's nothing more than an officially sanctioned paedo ring.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A 13 year old Christian girl Nayab Gill abducted by a pious Muslim man in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistan</a> and our <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistani?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistani</a> courts ACTUALLY returned him back to her abductor leaving their poor parents crying for help. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Justice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Justice</a> <a href="https://t.co/DjN9eBD1YT">pic.twitter.com/DjN9eBD1YT</a></p>— Charles Catholic (@Charles93180005) <a href="https://twitter.com/Charles93180005/status/1400685325295382537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can understand crime happening as there are criminals everywhere. But how does a court send an abducted minor with his abductor instead of the parents on the pretext of "marriage". At the moment, it's nothing more than an officially sanctioned paedo ring.

This is an every day event. Pakistani PM, politicians, celebrities, clerics and the average people have all the time in the world to harp on about the mistreatment of Muslims in faraway lands but they turn a blind eye to the horrible sufferings of Pakistani minorities. We, as a nation, need to grow some spine and accept and consider Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis as human beings. We need to stop treating them as sub-humans.
 
This is an every day event. Pakistani PM, politicians, celebrities, clerics and the average people have all the time in the world to harp on about the mistreatment of Muslims in faraway lands but they turn a blind eye to the horrible sufferings of Pakistani minorities. We, as a nation, need to grow some spine and accept and consider Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis as human beings. We need to stop treating them as sub-humans.

The problem with Indians and Pakistanis is that this often descends into a mudslinging match arguing on who treats their minorities worse. The liberals who actually talk about and highlight the atrocities against muslims in India are treated as anti nationals and traitors and it's the same for Pakistani liberals who highlight the injustices against their own minorities. For most Indians and Pakistanis, who are very conservative in their political views, highlighting such crimes shows their country in a bad light which pains their nationalistic heart. When people's sense of nationalistic jingoism overpowers their sense of empathy for other humans, it's not a nation anymore but a sh*thole. It's why the subcontinent is in the state it is in.

I've always believed that the subcontinent needs wide scale social reformist movements if they aspire to be progressive anything like the west. South India was lucky that it had some radical social reformers like Periyar, Kuvempu, etc., that reformed the society somewhat so that it isn't oppressive towards the most repressed classes but it still has a looong way to go and while religious intolerance is low, caste intolerance is still very much alive in the mentality of people even if it's not displayed as brazenly outside. Pakistan, north India, Bangladesh etc., haven't even started their social reform and as long as they remain devoid of social reform, minorities would continue to suffer in these regions. Ambedkar tried but ultimately the power of polarisation and jingoism prevailed in India.
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A 13 year old Christian girl Nayab Gill abducted by a pious Muslim man in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistan</a> and our <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistani?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistani</a> courts ACTUALLY returned him back to her abductor leaving their poor parents crying for help. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Justice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Justice</a> <a href="https://t.co/DjN9eBD1YT">pic.twitter.com/DjN9eBD1YT</a></p>— Charles Catholic (@Charles93180005) <a href="https://twitter.com/Charles93180005/status/1400685325295382537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can understand crime happening as there are criminals everywhere. But how does a court send an abducted minor with his abductor instead of the parents on the pretext of "marriage". At the moment, it's nothing more than an officially sanctioned paedo ring.

It is pretty simple, Pakistan is run on religious law, and religious law is based on practice of centuries ago where a boy or girl who reaches puberty is considered an adult. Until Pakistan stops regarding religious decree as sacrosanct, it won't change. As has been mentioned above, local authorites have tried to raise the age of marriage to 18 but run into opposition from the religious parties.

The stuff about forced conversions is contested, the truth of it I couldn't tell you. More than likely there will be abuses just as there will be in most third world countries. Poor people and minorities tend to have less rights in these medieval countries.
 
As a Muslim i am disgusted that Christians, Hindus etc would be forced to do anything against their will. It is the duty of the PK state to protect their rights, and if they dont then no amount of criticism is enough.
 
It is pretty simple, Pakistan is run on religious law, and religious law is based on practice of centuries ago where a boy or girl who reaches puberty is considered an adult. Until Pakistan stops regarding religious decree as sacrosanct, it won't change. As has been mentioned above, local authorites have tried to raise the age of marriage to 18 but run into opposition from the religious parties.

The stuff about forced conversions is contested, the truth of it I couldn't tell you. More than likely there will be abuses just as there will be in most third world countries. Poor people and minorities tend to have less rights in these medieval countries.

I don't know why it's contested. I'm not some hindutvadi right winger who is into the love jihad conspiracy everytime a muslim man marries a hindu or a christian woman. But when almost every time the case involves a girl belonging to minority community only and that too under age (it's never a hindu or a christian man marrying a muslim girl), marrying a 40 year old man with 3-4 kids, that's obviously not love.

I think judges should be practical enough to differentiate between legitimate cases of love marriages and cases where a middle aged man already married with kids, marries a girl who's young enough to be his own kid. And if the judiciary still sends the underage girl with the sexual predator, then the judges are failing their conscience.
 
Imran Khan, the gatekeeper of human rights, goes missing whenever there is a case involving Pakistani minorities. These cases of forced conversion will keep on happening till we get a strong and brave leader who does not fear the right wing and stands up and fights for his fellow countrymen. I do not see Imran ever mustering enough courage to do anything substantial for minorities.
 
I don't know why it's contested. I'm not some hindutvadi right winger who is into the love jihad conspiracy everytime a muslim man marries a hindu or a christian woman. But when almost every time the case involves a girl belonging to minority community only and that too under age (it's never a hindu or a christian man marrying a muslim girl), marrying a 40 year old man with 3-4 kids, that's obviously not love.

I think judges should be practical enough to differentiate between legitimate cases of love marriages and cases where a middle aged man already married with kids, marries a girl who's young enough to be his own kid. And if the judiciary still sends the underage girl with the sexual predator, then the judges are failing their conscience.

They are going strictly by the law, obviously there is plenty of room for abuse of these laws. There should probably be more pressure put on religious leaders to stop upholding such cases, without their pressure the judges would probably find their job much easier. These maulvis are the representatives of Islam in Pakistan, when they start invoking thousand year old traditions, then the judges probably need some backing from the state to overrule the fundamentalists.
 
I don't know why it's contested. I'm not some hindutvadi right winger who is into the love jihad conspiracy everytime a muslim man marries a hindu or a christian woman. But when almost every time the case involves a girl belonging to minority community only and that too under age (it's never a hindu or a christian man marrying a muslim girl), marrying a 40 year old man with 3-4 kids, that's obviously not love.

I think judges should be practical enough to differentiate between legitimate cases of love marriages and cases where a middle aged man already married with kids, marries a girl who's young enough to be his own kid. And if the judiciary still sends the underage girl with the sexual predator, then the judges are failing their conscience.

It should be a relatively easy decision and an open and shut case. No idea how these judges could come to this conclusion.
 
It should be a relatively easy decision and an open and shut case. No idea how these judges could come to this conclusion.

It's not really an open or shut case unless you know the particulars of the case. Men are allowed two wives in Islam. The age of the marriage is also a lot younger than we would expect in the western world. The main point you would argue on in an Islamic country would presumably whether the girl was abducted or married of her own free will.
 
As a Muslim i am disgusted that Christians, Hindus etc would be forced to do anything against their will. It is the duty of the PK state to protect their rights, and if they dont then no amount of criticism is enough.

Visit Hindus of Sindh website. You will see how many Christian and Hindu under age girls get kidnapped and surface out a week later married to an old Muslim man with a changed Name.

Imran may be a moderate at heart. But he bows down to radicles and Mullahs very easily. He will never take a stand against Islamic extremists. Instead he says that he is also fighting along with them for Islamic cause.
 
For those who are denying the existence of forced conversion, why is it that only teenage Hindu or Christian girls are accepting Islam?

Why aren’t older women accepting Islam and marrying Muslim men? And, why aren’t teenage Hindu and Christians boys converting and marrying Muslim girls?
 
Visit Hindus of Sindh website. You will see how many Christian and Hindu under age girls get kidnapped and surface out a week later married to an old Muslim man with a changed Name.

Imran may be a moderate at heart. But he bows down to radicles and Mullahs very easily. He will never take a stand against Islamic extremists. Instead he says that he is also fighting along with them for Islamic cause.

I follow that page on IG and every day there is a new case forced conversion.
 
It should be a relatively easy decision and an open and shut case. No idea how these judges could come to this conclusion.

You underestimate the power of the right wing. Mullahs can get anybody killed. Do you know two judges presiding over blasphemy cases were killed in the last two decades after their acquitted the suspects? Not to mention, dozens of lawyers of blasphemy suspect have been killed in gun attacks, the most notable being Rashid Rehman. Everybody is living under constant fear of the right wing.

Just a month back, a Lahore SP was almost killed by mullahs because he told two lady constables not to recite Quran whilst performing duty. He had to make a video, read verses from the Quran and apologise.
 
Visit Hindus of Sindh website. You will see how many Christian and Hindu under age girls get kidnapped and surface out a week later married to an old Muslim man with a changed Name.

Imran may be a moderate at heart. But he bows down to radicles and Mullahs very easily. He will never take a stand against Islamic extremists. Instead he says that he is also fighting along with them for Islamic cause.

Visiting a website is not really any way to determine veracity of any claims.
 
It's not really an open or shut case unless you know the particulars of the case. Men are allowed two wives in Islam. The age of the marriage is also a lot younger than we would expect in the western world. The main point you would argue on in an Islamic country would presumably whether the girl was abducted or married of her own free will.

Well there are two possibilities.

1. Either there's a strange phenomenon that's happening that makes 12-15 year old christian and hindu girls to be smitten in love with married 40+ year old muslim men with kids.

2. Sexual predation of young underage and vulnerable girls by fundamentalists who hold the kids and judiciary hostage with their unfettered power in the street and society due to the nature of the laws.

It is not an open and shut case only when you consciously choose not to look at the obvious. I remember reading the sobering story of a poor old muslim man burnt alive in the street with his belongings during the Delhi riots by right wing fundamentalists. I can of course pontificate that the old man could have first reacted with violence which resulted in escalation causing his own death, but then I know the obvious.
 
Well there are two possibilities.

1. Either there's a strange phenomenon that's happening that makes 12-15 year old christian and hindu girls to be smitten in love with married 40+ year old muslim men with kids.

2. Sexual predation of young underage and vulnerable girls by fundamentalists who hold the kids and judiciary hostage with their unfettered power in the street and society due to the nature of the laws.

It is not an open and shut case only when you consciously choose not to look at the obvious. I remember reading the sobering story of a poor old muslim man burnt alive in the street with his belongings during the Delhi riots by right wing fundamentalists. I can of course pontificate that the old man could have first reacted with violence which resulted in escalation causing his own death, but then I know the obvious.

Yes but each case still has to be considered on it's merits even if they turn out to be all forced conversions. They have to go through the process of examining the evidence from all parties. Then if you are getting clear cases of courts and judges giving biased or wrong decisions based on the case particulars, then you would need take action against the judges/legal establishment itself. Perhaps reform it inside out. Make the law clear so there can't be any weaselling out of it based on "but Islam allows this because it was ok in 600AD".
 
Yes but each case still has to be considered on it's merits even if they turn out to be all forced conversions. They have to go through the process of examining the evidence from all parties. Then if you are getting clear cases of courts and judges giving biased or wrong decisions based on the case particulars, then you would need take action against the judges/legal establishment itself. Perhaps reform it inside out. Make the law clear so there can't be any weaselling out of it based on "but Islam allows this because it was ok in 600AD".

I don't think it's as easy though. For all intents and purposes, even a 12 year girl (regardless of whether she's muslim or non muslim) is considered an adult according to the law in Pakistan as she's considered having attained puberty. Therefore while in other countries, it would not be possible to marry an underage child and would actually be punishable under the child marriage act even if one coerces the child to agree to a marriage either through grooming or threat, the religious nature of the legislature allows such marriages to happen in Pakistan.

And just who is going to take action against the legal establishment when they're the ones actually passing the judgements. The politicians? They are the ones preventing laws prohibiting child marriage to be passed in the parliament.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/515514-na-body-on-law-rejects-child-marriage-restraint-bill

To be completely honest, I don't see an easy solution here as any sort of reform would be deemed "unislamic" and therefore would get the scorn of the society.
 
I don't think it's as easy though. For all intents and purposes, even a 12 year girl (regardless of whether she's muslim or non muslim) is considered an adult according to the law in Pakistan as she's considered having attained puberty. Therefore while in other countries, it would not be possible to marry an underage child and would actually be punishable under the child marriage act even if one coerces the child to agree to a marriage either through grooming or threat, the religious nature of the legislature allows such marriages to happen in Pakistan.

And just who is going to take action against the legal establishment when they're the ones actually passing the judgements. The politicians? They are the ones preventing laws prohibiting child marriage to be passed in the parliament.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/515514-na-body-on-law-rejects-child-marriage-restraint-bill

To be completely honest, I don't see an easy solution here as any sort of reform would be deemed "unislamic" and therefore would get the scorn of the society.

This is what I was getting at, although I think in Pakistan the public would not approve of these sort of 'marriages' either, but they would probably fear going against the maulvis for fear of appearing unislamic. This is why I think more questions need to be asked of religious schools of thought how they can justify such early age marriages, especially to older men.

Also the avenue for prosecution of such men should focus on the charge of abduction as there is no way anyone can justify that. Local media can play a big part presuming there is actually a functioning local media.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A 13 year old Christian girl Nayab Gill abducted by a pious Muslim man in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistan</a> and our <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pakistani?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pakistani</a> courts ACTUALLY returned him back to her abductor leaving their poor parents crying for help. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Justice?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Justice</a> <a href="https://t.co/DjN9eBD1YT">pic.twitter.com/DjN9eBD1YT</a></p>— Charles Catholic (@Charles93180005) <a href="https://twitter.com/Charles93180005/status/1400685325295382537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can understand crime happening as there are criminals everywhere. But how does a court send an abducted minor with his abductor instead of the parents on the pretext of "marriage". At the moment, it's nothing more than an officially sanctioned paedo ring.

Fake documents. When it goes to court, the judge is seeing documents showing that the girl is over 18, and the girl is saying she agreed to the marriage.

Obviously based on this photo the girl is clearly underage. And if this photo is current, and not like 5 years old, then the judge got it wrong.

However lets play devils advocate. Fake documents can go both ways. Their have been cases where the parents have lied to save face and have stated that their daughter was underage, and produced documents to that effect.

This is from another case

The Islamabad High Court (IHC) on Thursday declared that the two sisters from Ghotki were not forcibly converted from Hinduism to Islam, and permitted them to live with their spouses.

The sisters and their spouses had petitioned the IHC on March 25 against alleged harassment by police days after their father and brother, in videos circulating on social media last month, alleged that the two sisters were underage, had been abducted, forced into changing their religion, and then married off to Muslim men.

Interior secretary Suleman also told the court that a medical board constituted to ascertain the age of the sister had concluded that they are adults aged 18 and 19 years.

Earlier, a medical report prepared by the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences (Pims) had also stated that Asia (formerly Raveena) is 19-years-old and Nadia (formerly Reena) is 18-years-old.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1475372

So the onus is on the judicuary to make sure that these girls are overage. And if they are, and the girl is saying she is marrying out of her own free will then no one should have a problem with it.
 
It is pretty simple, Pakistan is run on religious law, and religious law is based on practice of centuries ago where a boy or girl who reaches puberty is considered an adult. Until Pakistan stops regarding religious decree as sacrosanct, it won't change. As has been mentioned above, local authorites have tried to raise the age of marriage to 18 but run into opposition from the religious parties.

The stuff about forced conversions is contested, the truth of it I couldn't tell you. More than likely there will be abuses just as there will be in most third world countries. Poor people and minorities tend to have less rights in these medieval countries.

Wrong. In Pakistan the legal age for marriage is 18 for men, and 16 for girls. In Sindh the marriage age is 18 for girls as well.

Its on the judiciary to enforce the law.
 
For those who are denying the existence of forced conversion, why is it that only teenage Hindu or Christian girls are accepting Islam?

Why aren’t older women accepting Islam and marrying Muslim men? And, why aren’t teenage Hindu and Christians boys converting and marrying Muslim girls?

In Pakistan its not legal for a Muslim to marry a Hindu. We dont have the special marriage act like India does. So if a Muslim guy wants to marry a Hindu girl she would need to convert to Islam for marriage. To save faces in many instances the parents lie and say their daughter was underage. Their have been documented cases where this has been proven to be false.


This does not mean that their are no forced marriages, or marriages of underage girls. Of course they are. But this is not restricted to minorities. It happens to Muslim girls as well.

But when every Hindu Muslim marriage is deemed forced in the eyes of liberals, it hurts the credibility of genuine forced marriage cases.
 
In Pakistan its not legal for a Muslim to marry a Hindu. We dont have the special marriage act like India does. So if a Muslim guy wants to marry a Hindu girl she would need to convert to Islam for marriage. To save faces in many instances the parents lie and say their daughter was underage. Their have been documented cases where this has been proven to be false.


This does not mean that their are no forced marriages, or marriages of underage girls. Of course they are. But this is not restricted to minorities. It happens to Muslim girls as well.

But when every Hindu Muslim marriage is deemed forced in the eyes of liberals, it hurts the credibility of genuine forced marriage cases.

I think I've said this to you before, but you remind me so much of the the true "hindu liberal" that you see often in India. The "hindu liberals" aren't as crass and obnoxious in their conversations as their hindutvadi counterparts. They won't make islamophobic slurs like their right wing counterparts to muslims. They talk in sophisticated words making well nuanced arguments. They argue, very sensibly of course, that while there may be a few cases of innocent muslims being targeted by mobs, most often it's a case of illegal cattle smugglers kidnapping the cattle of poor villagers, who in a fit of rage target the illegal smuggler as their cattle is the only source of their income.

They talk how the NRC is the need of the day to limit the influx of the illegal immigrants into India as there's already overpopulation in the country. They often say while they aren't exactly a fan of Modi, they support the BJP and Modi as they're the only decent alternative available in India while all other options are corrupt to the core. I'm amazed how much our countries are so similar.
 
In Pakistan its not legal for a Muslim to marry a Hindu. We dont have the special marriage act like India does. So if a Muslim guy wants to marry a Hindu girl she would need to convert to Islam for marriage. To save faces in many instances the parents lie and say their daughter was underage. Their have been documented cases where this has been proven to be false.


This does not mean that their are no forced marriages, or marriages of underage girls. Of course they are. But this is not restricted to minorities. It happens to Muslim girls as well.

But when every Hindu Muslim marriage is deemed forced in the eyes of liberals, it hurts the credibility of genuine forced marriage cases.

You misread. I am asking why are teenage Hindu boys converting and marrying Muslim women? Why only teenage Hindu and Christian girls? Why aren’t older Hindu and Christian women converting to Islam?

Do you think Arzoo, 14, would have consented to marry a 40-odd year old man? That is a simple case of pedophilia and sex grooming.One or two supposedly fake cases if forced conversions do not negate thousands of genuine forced conversion cases. No wonder Pakistan is third-worst country to be a minority!
 
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