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The myth of Vernon Philander being a green track bully...

Slog

Slog

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Time and again you see Philander being dismissed by people in discussions of great bowlers because apparently he is a home bully (or a green track bully)

However, his record is actually good overall. Just because he has an insanely ATG home record (which others dont so certainly not as simple), his away record is good too.

His averages away include:
Australia: 30
England: 23
India: 20
NZ: 22
UAE: 23

Only Sri Lanka from top teams is where he has a bad average

Ofcourse his home average of 18 is unreal but its certainly not a case that he is a dud everywhere else.

Also he's played more away and neutral tests than home tests.
 
His average in Cape Town must be below 10 or something. He takes a 5-fer in every Cape Town Test.

He is an outstanding bowler but there is something missing from his game. Just doesn’t make the headlines and only the ardent and nerdy followers of cricket appreciate and acknowledge his performance.

SA fans will remember him, but he will be quickly forgotten after his retirement.
 
Mamoon said:
His average in Cape Town must be below 10 or something. He takes a 5-fer in every Cape Town Test.

He is an outstanding bowler but there is something missing from his game. Just doesn’t make the headlines and only the ardent and nerdy followers of cricket appreciate and acknowledge his performance.

SA fans will remember him, but he will be quickly forgotten after his retirement.
Click to expand...

He lacks pace and doesn't 'look' a athlete?

Only faults I find.

He gets top order batsmen. Its not like he's simply cleaning up the tail.
 
He has been brilliant and has been hardly out of form. He simply lacks Flamboyance and X-factor but as far as he is performing for his team he doesn't need it.
 
Slog said:
He lacks pace and doesn't 'look' a athlete?

Only faults I find.

He gets top order batsmen. Its not like he's simply cleaning up the tail.
Click to expand...

Yes he is slow, looks boring and plays boring, has done nothing in Limited Overs and has been overshadowed by Steyn and lately Rabada.

Outside South Africa, there are bowlers like Anderson, Starc, Hazlewood, Boult etc. who get more exposure and fanfare.

There is a lot going against Philander and his legacy as an ATG.
 
Philander, hazlewood kind of bowler most likely gets top batsman of opposition that's what happens most of the time. Steyn, Starc, Rabada picks wicket but most likely great batsman handles them well or atleast not gives them their wicket.
 
Mamoon said:
Yes he is slow, looks boring and plays boring, has done nothing in Limited Overs and has been overshadowed by Steyn and lately Rabada.

Outside South Africa, there are bowlers like Anderson, Starc, Hazlewood, Boult etc. who get more exposure and fanfare.

There is a lot going against Philander and his legacy as an ATG.
Click to expand...

Certainly not the pin-up boy the ones mentioned above are and he's generally shared the attack with a genuine top speedster - Steyn, now Rabada.

Similar perhaps with Morkel too, fine bowler - though other similar players probably are better recognized.
 
A good bowler but nowhere near ATG status.

Also his average of 20 in India is based on 1 Test Match where he only bowled 27 overs. You are trying to bust the myth with that sample size? His average in Asia is 32 with less than 2 wickets per match and a strike rate of 79. His averages are less because he's a line and length bowler and hardly goes for runs. Low Average is not equal to Effectiveness.

England and NZ are known for seaming conditions which is right up the alley of Philander. Not sure how those performances can be included in busting the myth of him of not being a green track bully. So excluding NZ and England, his performance is:

Played: 13
Wickets: 30
Average: 32.46
SR: 74.0
 
shariqnoor said:
A good bowler but nowhere near ATG status.

Also his average of 20 in India is based on 1 Test Match where he only bowled 27 overs. You are trying to bust the myth with that sample size? His average in Asia is 32 with less than 2 wickets per match and a strike rate of 79. His averages are less because he's a line and length bowler and hardly goes for runs. Low Average is not equal to Effectiveness.

England and NZ are known for seaming conditions which is right up the alley of Philander. Not sure how those performances can be included in busting the myth of him of not being a green track bully. So excluding NZ and England, his performance is:

Played: 13
Wickets: 30
Average: 32.46
SR: 74.0
Click to expand...

How does that work though?
We exclude NZ and Eng, but we don't exclude Sri Lanka the only away country has been poor? What's that about?

How have the likes of Anderson bowled in easy countries like SA and NZ? How has Jimmy bowled in his own conditions against the best team of his era?

Let's take SA, NZ, Aus and England and compare averages. It should be interesting to see stats for bowlers for these "easy" conditions.
 
These are very interesting numbers.
I wanted to see how pace bowlers have fared in SA, NZ, Australia and England.
I started from 1 Jan 2003 (For currently active players and recently retired)

link

Philander has the best average bar Akhtar who played just 5 matches in that time period.


I then want see how bowlers from these countries perform against each other. Are they mainly bullying and exploiting batsmen from the subcontinent? Can they perform against opposition used to pace, bounce and/or swing.

LINK

Once again of all the active players Philander has the best average, only the recently retired R. Harris did better in these countries. What are the likes of Steyn, Rabada, Starc, Hazelwood, Anderson doing? Why aren't they exploiting similar conditions? He's outperforming these guys quite comfortably.
 
Lets see him play two series back to back (without breaking down or finding some excuse to get out) in places where the pitch is not going to be helpful at all for fast bowling and it will answer a lot of questions.

He is the bowling equivalent of a FTB.
 
Slog said:
Time and again you see Philander being dismissed by people in discussions of great bowlers because apparently he is a home bully (or a green track bully)

However, his record is actually good overall. Just because he has an insanely ATG home record (which others dont so certainly not as simple), his away record is good too.

His averages away include:
Australia: 30
England: 23
India: 20
NZ: 22
UAE: 23

Only Sri Lanka from top teams is where he has a bad average

Ofcourse his home average of 18 is unreal but its certainly not a case that he is a dud everywhere else.

Also he's played more away and neutral tests than home tests.
Click to expand...

He had only played one test match in India. If he had completed the entire series that average would be far worse. Im looking forward to see him play the entire series in India and not just one odd game before he pulls his ‘Hamstring’ and protects his average. He is very good bowler when conditions are ideal for swing bowling, however Im not sold on his skills when pitch is flat and no swing/seam available. Im surprised that despite being around for number of years, he have only played one single test match in India. It seems he have been avoiding India for some reason, I wonder what could it be.
 
shariqnoor said:
A good bowler but nowhere near ATG status.

Also his average of 20 in India is based on 1 Test Match where he only bowled 27 overs. You are trying to bust the myth with that sample size? His average in Asia is 32 with less than 2 wickets per match and a strike rate of 79. His averages are less because he's a line and length bowler and hardly goes for runs. Low Average is not equal to Effectiveness.

England and NZ are known for seaming conditions which is right up the alley of Philander. Not sure how those performances can be included in busting the myth of him of not being a green track bully. So excluding NZ and England, his performance is:

Played: 13
Wickets: 30
Average: 32.46
SR: 74.0
Click to expand...

he has played 7 tests in Asia and the only quality players that he has dismissed in Asia are Dhawan and Azhar Ali. Link: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ate=results;type=bowling;view=batsman_summary
 
Slog said:
Time and again you see Philander being dismissed by people in discussions of great bowlers because apparently he is a home bully (or a green track bully)

However, his record is actually good overall. Just because he has an insanely ATG home record (which others dont so certainly not as simple), his away record is good too.

His averages away include:
Australia: 30
England: 23
India: 20
NZ: 22
UAE: 23

Only Sri Lanka from top teams is where he has a bad average

Ofcourse his home average of 18 is unreal but its certainly not a case that he is a dud everywhere else.

Also he's played more away and neutral tests than home tests.
Click to expand...



doesnt play low quality t20 leagues perhaps thats why, other genuine reason I guess is that in flat wkts he is not that effective, but Dale Steyn wasnt effective in flat wkts either. Only Starc is these days
 
Slog said:
Time and again you see Philander being dismissed by people in discussions of great bowlers because apparently he is a home bully (or a green track bully)

However, his record is actually good overall. Just because he has an insanely ATG home record (which others dont so certainly not as simple), his away record is good too.

His averages away include:
Australia: 30
England: 23
India: 20
NZ: 22
UAE: 23

Only Sri Lanka from top teams is where he has a bad average

Ofcourse his home average of 18 is unreal but its certainly not a case that he is a dud everywhere else.

Also he's played more away and neutral tests than home tests.
Click to expand...
Philander.png

Too much conclusion on too little sample size.
1 game in India
2 games in UAE

Averages 76 in Zimbabwe in one game, should we consider that too?
I would wait for him to play more in Asia before coming to conclusion, but i doubt he would be played in asia, because with his pace and no movement, he would be bread and butter for batsmen.

On a different note, Ashwin was crucified for playing just one game in SA. Different takes for different players i suppose.
 
EliteCynical said:
View attachment 78150

Too much conclusion on too little sample size.
1 game in India
2 games in UAE

Averages 76 in Zimbabwe in one game, should we consider that too?
I would wait for him to play more in Asia before coming to conclusion, but i doubt he would be played in asia, because with his pace and no movement, he would be bread and butter for batsmen.

On a different note, Ashwin was crucified for playing just one game in SA. Different takes for different players i suppose.
Click to expand...
Ashwin didn't help win his side a game in SA like Philander did in Aus or UAE
 
Slog said:
Ashwin didn't help win his side a game in SA like Philander did in Aus or UAE
Click to expand...

What a wrong analogy. I expected better from you.

1. I meant Ashwin outside Asia is equivalent to Philander in Asia. Remind me which game did Philander win in Asia with figures of 2/40, 2/38, 2/52 and 3/84?


2. If you think one bowler wins you a game in unhelpful conditions, you are grossly mistaken. Given Ashwin the attack of Philander, Rabada, Morkel and Steyn and he will win games in NZ like Maharaj did.
 
He is a genius like Asif. No pace or anything extra ordinary, but just an awesome bowling mind and seam bowling abilities.
 
Tusker said:
Lets see him play two series back to back (without breaking down or finding some excuse to get out) in places where the pitch is not going to be helpful at all for fast bowling and it will answer a lot of questions.

He is the bowling equivalent of a FTB.
Click to expand...

He broke down in England this summer which is a place ideal for his type of bowling so his fitness issues aren't limited to one country as part of a devious plot to protect his average.
 
A very good bowler, and probably has one of the sharpest minds in the game in terms of how he sets a batsman to get out. Goes to show that superb line and length bowlers will always thrive no matter their pace.
 
Prince of Pakistan said:
He is a genius like Asif. No pace or anything extra ordinary, but just an awesome bowling mind and seam bowling abilities.
Click to expand...

Please don't compare him with Asif. Asif was a certified genius. Vernon is in the Mcgrath mould. His nickname is Vern McGrath!
 
Lethal when there's life in the pitch and very good when there's lateral movement in the air but there's no denying he struggles to take wickets on lifeless tracks due to lack of pace. However, he can shut an end due to his accuracy so he's great to have in that regard.

A South African Great. Can't put him past that.
 
He may not be as effective on the flat tracks but he is still a brilliant bowler. I watched him bowl some fantastic spells on his most recent trip to Aussie that went largely unrewarded. You dont see many guys dribbling it down at 128km troubling guys that much on those roads very often.
 
Very good bowler and has done well in other conditions as well. Just that he is too good at home. Nothing wrong in that.
 
Better be a bully of something than not bully at all. Most of the matches he plays will be on helpful pitches only. If he can average 22 there power to him.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Better be a bully of something than not bully at all. Most of the matches he plays will be on helpful pitches only. If he can average 22 there power to him.
Click to expand...

Agreed, a lot of batsmen get the flak for being flat track bullies. Sehwag is a good example, he is a walking wicket in UK but what he can do on slow pitches of Asia, no batsman in the world except maybe Viv Richards can match that.
 
He can bat too. So even if he was an above average bowler, he would be a top class player. As it stands, he is an outstanding bowler making him one of the best players in the history of this great sport.
 
Wassup with all the Philander threads? Let him get a match winning 5-for in Asia first. That's the benchmark for non-South Asian bowlers excl. West indies. He hasn't done many things memorable outside SAF. Home bullying is worthless now that all sides are dominant at home. A 5-for in India is worth 10 5-for in SAF.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Wassup with all the Philander threads? Let him get a match winning 5-for in Asia first. That's the benchmark for non-South Asian bowlers excl. West indies. He hasn't done many things memorable outside SAF. Home bullying is worthless now that all sides are dominant at home. A 5-for in India is worth 10 5-for in SAF.
Click to expand...

Australian pitches are flatter and harder to bowl on than Asian pitches
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Wassup with all the Philander threads? Let him get a match winning 5-for in Asia first. That's the benchmark for non-South Asian bowlers excl. West indies. He hasn't done many things memorable outside SAF. Home bullying is worthless now that all sides are dominant at home. A 5-for in India is worth 10 5-for in SAF.
Click to expand...

Ergo, Glenn McGrath was no ATG. Got it.
 
#I haven't been able to follow the match aside looking at scorecard at times but I am surprised why he bowled so less?
 
His career appears to be fading after the retirements of Steyn and Morkel. Still hard to score off because of his accuracy but doesn’t seem to be that threatening anymore.

He was surprisingly below his best in the Pakistan series at home against a very poor lineup.

A Kolpak deal is probably not far away.
 
He is a better test bowler than Morkel but the latter looked far more effective than Philander in sub continent conditions.

It can be argued that if Morne Morkel would have played for an Asian test side, he would have managed a fair enough career while Philander might not have a good career as an Asian bowler.

Among SA bowlers post re-admission, his legacy is behind:-

Steyn
Donald
Pollock
Morkel
Ntini
 
I’m sorry but in what universe is Philander a better test bowler than Morkel?
Morkel was genuine wicket taker and was effective even on lifeless pitches. On the other hand, we are seeing Philander trundling at 120Kms and getting hammered all parts. I even posted earlier in this thread that I’m not completely sold on his skills. Now I’m very sure he is Green Track Bully. [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]
 
Indians have been ruthless with Vernon. One of those cases where stats don't tell the whole story. Each and every Indian pacer has outbowled Philander on LiFeLeSs pitches.

IMO Kohli & co might have ended his career.
 
Biggest stat padder of this decade surely? There's a reason why nobody rates him despite his stats.
 
Philander is not a good bowler outside of South Africa and Australia. It is why he can never be a legend despite having a great average.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Biggest stat padder of this decade surely? There's a reason why nobody rates him despite his stats.
Click to expand...
absolutely. he is like the rohit of bowling in test. rohit averages 45. he is still cannon fodder in swing conditions. Actually when was the last time rohit scored in australia (test matches only) and south africa? he averages 20 in s.africain tests.

mediocre player.
 
tyron_woodley said:
absolutely. he is like the rohit of bowling in test. rohit averages 45. he is still cannon fodder in swing conditions. Actually when was the last time rohit scored in australia (test matches only) and south africa? he averages 20 in s.africain tests.

mediocre player.
Click to expand...

To make up for test mediocrity, at least Rohit is an ATG in ODIs and arguably the second best opener of all time. Meanwhile Philander isn't even good enough to play LOIs (it's not like SAF bowling in LOIs is very good either)

So basically the only place he's good at is SENA, in one format.
 
CanadianG00se said:
I’m sorry but in what universe is Philander a better test bowler than Morkel?
Morkel was genuine wicket taker and was effective even on lifeless pitches. On the other hand, we are seeing Philander trundling at 120Kms and getting hammered all parts. I even posted earlier in this thread that I’m not completely sold on his skills. Now I’m very sure he is Green Track Bully. [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

Philander averages 22 compared to Morkel's 27. You look at the no of 5-fers as well. Philander can run into a lineup far more often than Morkel would.

But then you also have to understand everything else I posted and the points I mentioned w.r.t. Asian conditions and their overall legacy.
 
Not a myth at all. The guy is completely harmless bowling at 124 kph. Rabada has had no support from him in anyway. The very definition of a green track bully.
 
Philander averages a very creditable 28 overseas. He has more difficulty in Asia but becomes a stock bowler there.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Not an atg for me.
But still better than anderson whose only plus point is longevity.
Click to expand...

It is ridiculous to claim that he is better than Anderson. Philander has played less than 15 Tests in Australia, England and India put together. That is no sample size at all.

He doesn’t have the mastery of swing and reverse-swing like Anderson, but he is really good at seaming the ball.

Longevity cannot be discounted when you are talking about a bowler with almost 600 wickets, in additional to more influential performances in places like Australia and India.

Comparing Philander to Anderson is worse than comparing Anderson to Wasim.
 
Mamoon said:
It is ridiculous to claim that he is better than Anderson. Philander has played less than 15 Tests in Australia, England and India put together. That is no sample size at all.

He doesn’t have the mastery of swing and reverse-swing like Anderson, but he is really good at seaming the ball.

Longevity cannot be discounted when you are talking about a bowler with almost 600 wickets, in additional to more influential performances in places like Australia and India.

Comparing Philander to Anderson is worse than comparing Anderson to Wasim.
Click to expand...

I would pick Philander ahead of Anderson.
 
Anderson is another green track bully cannon fodder. I would pick several players over both.

morne morkel would be a better choice than both these clowns.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Anderson is another green track bully cannon fodder. I would pick several players over both.

morne morkel would be a better choice than both these clowns.
Click to expand...

You would pick someone averaging 30 over someone averaging 21.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Anderson is another green track bully cannon fodder. I would pick several players over both.

morne morkel would be a better choice than both these clowns.
Click to expand...

Morkel has pace but doesn't bowl consistent line and length. At times, he has ended up releasing all the pressure created by Steyn on one end because of his inconsistency and lack of accuracy.

Philander has accuracy and is deadly on helpful conditions but simply a Kallis level stock bowler in Asian conditions. Jimmy on other hand, can reverse swing and had been England's lead bowler for many many years and over many tours to Asian countries.
 
Robert said:
You would pick someone averaging 30 over someone averaging 21.
Click to expand...

Philander is a Kallis level bowler in Asian conditions.

Jimmy has longevity, mastery of swing bowling, can reverse it and has been the leader of the attack for many many years and over several tours to Asian countries.

Anderson
Philander
Morkel

But Morkel has a bigger legacy than Philander because former is an excellent ODI bowler as well.
 
Last edited:
Ab Fan said:
Philander averages 22 compared to Morkel's 27. You look at the no of 5-fers as well. Philander can run into a lineup far more often than Morkel would.

But then you also have to understand everything else I posted and the points I mentioned w.r.t. Asian conditions and their overall legacy.
Click to expand...
You just can’t compare players based on stats specially when it comes to Philander. We all know how Philander have always avoided touring difficult countries. He has been around for many years and this Indian tour is going to be his first complete(if he doesn’t miss 3rd test) tour as player. IMO Morkel is much better option than Philander.
 
Ab Fan said:
Philander is a Kallis level bowler in Asian conditions.

Jimmy has longevity, mastery of swing bowling, can reverse it and has been the leader of the attack for many many years and over several tours to Asian countries.

Anderson
Philander
Morkel

But Morkel has a bigger legacy than Philander because former is an excellent ODI bowler as well.
Click to expand...

I never pay attention to ODI stats. It’s not the gold standard.
 
Mamoon said:
It is ridiculous to claim that he is better than Anderson. Philander has played less than 15 Tests in Australia, England and India put together. That is no sample size at all.

He doesn’t have the mastery of swing and reverse-swing like Anderson, but he is really good at seaming the ball.

Longevity cannot be discounted when you are talking about a bowler with almost 600 wickets, in additional to more influential performances in places like Australia and India.

Comparing Philander to Anderson is worse than comparing Anderson to Wasim.
Click to expand...

I do agree with some part of your post.
Anderson will always be more revered than someone like philander because of the number of matches he won for his side(as a result of longer career and fitness).

What i wanted to say was that philander is a better bowler away from home and i"ll take him over anderson outside home comfort, but yes he wont be rated as highly as jimmy.
 
tyron_woodley said:
Anderson is another green track bully cannon fodder. I would pick several players over both.

morne morkel would be a better choice than both these clowns.
Click to expand...

Morkel is way inferior to both of these bowlers, you need impact performances to be rated as a top quality bowler.
Morkel was never the leader of attack .

Morkel has 8 fifers and 0 10fers in 86 matches
Philander has 13 5fers and 2 10fers in 59 matches

and philander has won his country a series in aus ,morkel never had such impact performances.

Philander>>>Morkel.
 
CanadianG00se said:
You just can’t compare players based on stats specially when it comes to Philander. We all know how Philander have always avoided touring difficult countries. He has been around for many years and this Indian tour is going to be his first complete(if he doesn’t miss 3rd test) tour as player. IMO Morkel is much better option than Philander.
Click to expand...

Morkel is better in indian conditions, but how is it the "be all end all".
 
To be honest, he didn't bowl that badly. He was a bit unlucky not to find the edge more than a few times.
 
He couldn't make the XI in third test. Bowling average 77.5 in a series where Umesh and Shami averaged 12 and 14.5 respectively.
 
He was the best batsman from the South African side. Surprised he didnt play in the third test, they needed his level-headed batting at no 6 or 7
 
I wouldn't say he was totally toothless. He was still able to beat the bat every over with new ball.
 
I haven't seen an earth shattering performance from Phillander for a while. I remember there was a time period when he was getting 5 wicket hauls along with Steyn for fun
 
Slog said:
He didn’t bowl too badly man
Click to expand...

Philander was lucky to play the majority of his career in helpful conditions/surfaces. Was completely exposed in SL and in India . Accuracy can only take you so far. You can't trundle in at 80 mph and take wickets on good batting tracks.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Philander was lucky to play the majority of his career in helpful conditions/surfaces. Was completely exposed in SL and in India . Accuracy can only take you so far. You can't trundle in at 80 mph and take wickets on good batting tracks.
Click to expand...

he wasnt awful here even if he didnt take wickets

Philander is someone who pounces on you as he doesnt give you space and is accurate. So for him to be very effective everywhere he needs quality bowlers on the other ends putting pressure which he doesnt have anymore.
 
Slog said:
he wasnt awful here even if he didnt take wickets

Philander is someone who pounces on you as he doesnt give you space and is accurate. So for him to be very effective everywhere he needs quality bowlers on the other ends putting pressure which he doesnt have anymore.
Click to expand...

From what i saw he was able to beat the openers many times with new ball. Balls dropped a tad short of slip fielders. You could blame de kock for standing too far. He is better than the Ngidi at this point. Ngidi is completely toothless. Nortje on the other hand was very impressive despite lack of wickets.
 
Slog said:
he wasnt awful here even if he didnt take wickets

Philander is someone who pounces on you as he doesnt give you space and is accurate. So for him to be very effective everywhere he needs quality bowlers on the other ends putting pressure which he doesnt have anymore.
Click to expand...
Then whats wrong with ashwin.?

He seldom gets hit for runs the only reason he is called a htb is because he doesn't take many wickets away from home.
Ashwin is atleast as good as philander.
 
Slog said:
he wasnt awful here even if he didnt take wickets

Philander is someone who pounces on you as he doesnt give you space and is accurate. So for him to be very effective everywhere he needs quality bowlers on the other ends putting pressure which he doesnt have anymore.
Click to expand...

That's what both Ashwin and Jadeja does as well.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Then whats wrong with ashwin.?

He seldom gets hit for runs the only reason he is called a htb is because he doesn't take many wickets away from home.
Ashwin is atleast as good as philander.
Click to expand...

whats wrong with him?

i think hes a decent spinner abroad. Jadeja just seems to be better rated for away tours by management and tbf he has delivered
 
Slog said:
whats wrong with him?

i think hes a decent spinner abroad. Jadeja just seems to be better rated for away tours by management and tbf he has delivered
Click to expand...
People call him a HTB while philander is treated as a world class player or borderline atg.
 
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