The myth that bowlers in the past consistently bowled fast!

[Nikhil_cric]

Not gonna take examples from the distant past but many belive that even in the early-mid 2000's , bowlers were bowling super quick throughout with names like Akhtar, Lee and Sami being thrown about. But this is mostly our memory playing tricks on us and we only really remember their fastest spells.

Check this out


Average speed of 84.9(136.7 kph) and this is a young Sami. Post more examples if possible

 

[andy0204]

I have seen Brett Lee bowling in 130's during test matches.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Not gonna take examples from the distant past but many belive that even in the early-mid 2000's , bowlers were bowling super quick throughout with names like Akhtar, Lee and Sami being thrown about. But this is mostly our memory playing tricks on us and we only really remember their fastest spells.

Check this out
View attachment 103850

Average speed of 84.9(136.7 kph) and this is a young Sami. Post more examples if possible

Sami was playing with an injury in that series. He had pain in his heel which resulted in him missing the last 3 matches of that series if I am not wrong.

So the Sami you see here was not 100%.

Plus, Sami is not a good example, because he played most of his career with a confused approach; his captains didnt really know how to best use him and he himself wasn't a leader or have a strong enough personality to know what he should be doing.

There were times when he tried to be a speed demon, trying to compete with Akhtar. This was when he played under Rashid, and we saw the best of Sami under him.

I remember his spells against england in the 3 match series right after the world cup where he averaged over 92 mph and maxed out at 96 mph.

Here is a link to him bowling with Akhtar in that series. Just watch the speeds from both of them.
https://youtu.be/FsTPQodEbXs

However, then there were other times where he was told to focus on line and length, particularly under Inzamam and Malik who were defensive captains.
This was when he fell away and went into obscurity.

 

[Shafi]

Sami was playing with an injury in that series. He had pain in his heel which resulted in him missing the last 3 matches of that series if I am not wrong.

So the Sami you see here was not 100%.

Plus, Sami is not a good example, because he played most of his career with a confused approach; his captains didnt really know how to best use him and he himself wasn't a leader or have a strong enough personality to know what he should be doing.

There were times when he tried to be a speed demon, trying to compete with Akhtar. This was when he played under Rashid, and we saw the best of Sami under him.

I remember his spells against england in the 3 match series right after the world cup where he averaged over 92 mph and maxed out at 96 mph.

Here is a link to him bowling with Akhtar in that series. Just watch the speeds from both of them.
https://youtu.be/FsTPQodEbXs

However, then there were other times where he was told to focus on line and length, particularly under Inzamam and Malik who were defensive captains.
This was when he fell away and went into obscurity.

Miandad was coach back then no wonder our team was clueless.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Lol this has to be the worst example to prove this hypothesis.

You can pull up Sami's average speeds onbthe 2006 test tour to England, and you'll be disappointed there too. However, Sami had spells where he averaged 90+ mph quite easily, like the 2003 England tour.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Further on that series in 2003, in the 2nd match at the Oval, Shoaib bowled a delivery at 98.7 mph. He got smashed though, but here is a link to that: https://youtu.be/odBLbPANwEo

There is another match I want to bring to your notice; the first test vs south africa at Lahore on a phatta.
Watch Shoaib's and Sami's speeds in this one.
In the second innings Shoaib hit 160 kph in a test, in the heat of Lahore; so much for people doubting his commitment. His 4 wickets in the 2nd innings won us the test match.
Here is the link to that.
https://youtu.be/4VquJ7wflCY

The point of telling is that bowlers of that era indeed bowled quicker than what we see today. Remember, those were the days of odi's and test matches.
Imagine Shoaib, Sami and Lee bowling in the t20 age with just a workload of 4 overs.
155, 156 kph was not as rare then, as it is today.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Here is sami randomly chucking in a 156 kph yorker in a low profile match agsinst Zimbabwe.
https://youtu.be/w5yhffpxhRE
The captain was once again Rashid.

 

[tyron_woodley]

it is indeed a myth. Speed guns were just faulty and inaccurate. I have seen bret lee of all people trundle in tests.

bowlers are much better and faster now on average. Proper speed guns are being used unlike the inflated stat boosting mechanism they have utilized in the past.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Further on that series in 2003, in the 2nd match at the Oval, Shoaib bowled a delivery at 98.7 mph. He got smashed though, but here is a link to that: https://youtu.be/odBLbPANwEo

There is another match I want to bring to your notice; the first test vs south africa at Lahore on a phatta.
Watch Shoaib's and Sami's speeds in this one.
In the second innings Shoaib hit 160 kph in a test, in the heat of Lahore; so much for people doubting his commitment. His 4 wickets in the 2nd innings won us the test match.
Here is the link to that.
https://youtu.be/4VquJ7wflCY

The point of telling is that bowlers of that era indeed bowled quicker than what we see today. Remember, those were the days of odi's and test matches.
Imagine Shoaib, Sami and Lee bowling in the t20 age with just a workload of 4 overs.
155, 156 kph was not as rare then, as it is today.

The point i'm trying to make is there is no evidence that say any of those bowlers maintained 143.xx as average speed over a career as Starc has. Speeds may have actually gone up. While you guys are pointing out series where those bowlers maintained high speeds over a series, there are plenty of counter examples to bring that average pace down..

 

[tyron_woodley]

The point i'm trying to make is there is no evidence that say any of those bowlers maintained 143.xx as average speed over a career as Starc has. Speeds may have actually gone up. While you guys are pointing out series where those bowlers maintained high speeds over a series, there are plenty of counter examples to bring that average pace down..

you are absolutely right mate. It is indeed a myth. Ignore the fanb*ys. Bowlers are fitter and faster now compared to past. Just bowling in an era with more advanced technology which actually provides an accurate figure regarding speeds.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

you are absolutely right mate. It is indeed a myth. Ignore the fanb*ys. Bowlers are fitter and faster now compared to past. Just bowling in an era with more advanced technology which actually provides an accurate figure regarding speeds.

You are calling me a ****** when you yourself have zero historical perspective and are a victim of recency bias.

You are trying to tell us that Brett lee and Shoaib are slower than Starc, Ferguson, Archer or your much cherished Indian quartet (whom i am actually a big fan of). This is the biggest fallacy I have ever heard, and totally shows who is fanboying.
Faulty speedguns; like really?
You seriously need to go and try to understand how fast bowling and its mechanics work before spouting such ignorance.

So let me Just try to take you to school for a bit;

It is widely understood, that to bowl quick, you need to have the following attributes or elements.

1) Supreme fast twitch fibre muscles: this is what most of the fastest bowlers have commonly. This is the raw ability to move your body quickly and to generate power and velocity.
A guy like Haris Rauf also has great fast twitch fibre, but he lacks in atleast one of the next two elements.

2) A good sprint speed to get the momentum. Just see how this helped Mark wood increase his pace after he lengthened his run up. Guys like Shoaib, Waqar, Lee and Zahid generated a tremendous amount of momentum through their run up.
In the modern age, Shami does this very well. However, he lacks in the next attribute.

A technically correct action:
Brett lee and Allan Donald had the perfect actions from a biomechanical standpoint; so much so that Lee's action is taught as a prototype in high performance centres worldwide.



A guy like Starc who collapses in his delivery stride cannot hold a candle to Lee, given how braced the latter's knee is which allows for maximum arm extension and torque generation.


One might argue that Nortje has a braced knee too, but look at his run up and compare that to Lee.
There is a world of difference in how much momentum they generate.
Mohammad Shami too doesnt have a braced knee and thereby, doesnt get as good an extension to generate pace upwards of 150 kph.

There will be an argument that Shoaib also had a bent knee. But with him, he had an abnormal physique, due to his hyperextension which allowed him extra leverage and arm speed than other bowlers.
This is precisely why Bumrah also generates his pace despite not having a run up. However his run up is so lacking in momentum that he cant crack the 150 kph consistently even though he is capable of it.


So next time, you try to argue on fast bowling, come with some technical knowledge instead of that "faulty speedgun" logic so that we can have a valid discussion for a change.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

I see that my friend loves his hit and run posting style.
I am still waiting for a debate my friend. [MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION]
Would like to learn from your views.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

The point i'm trying to make is there is no evidence that say any of those bowlers maintained 143.xx as average speed over a career as Starc has. Speeds may have actually gone up. While you guys are pointing out series where those bowlers maintained high speeds over a series, there are plenty of counter examples to bring that average pace down..

Give me a substantial array of examples of Shoaib and lee bowling slower than today's bowlers.

Those guys used to bowl close to a 100 mph in test matches, and not for 4 overs in the IPL.

By the way, here is another one for you.

https://youtu.be/58qXzYSCUMw

Threatening 100mph once again in a test match, bowling New Zealand out single handedly for 73 where Pakistan scored 643.

Here is lee threatening the 100 mph mark in South Africa.
Come back to me when Starc, Archer, Nortje, Ferguson produce such spells regularly in test matches.
https://youtu.be/jXDCxpAgp90

Another one for Lee. This is one of his slower spells before the action change, which got him an extra yard of pace.

https://youtu.be/7aB3p-9_cyU

 

[tyron_woodley]

You are calling me a ****** when you yourself have zero historical perspective and are a victim of recency bias.

You are trying to tell us that Brett lee and Shoaib are slower than Starc, Ferguson, Archer or your much cherished Indian quartet (whom i am actually a big fan of). This is the biggest fallacy I have ever heard, and totally shows who is fanboying.
Faulty speedguns; like really?
You seriously need to go and try to understand how fast bowling and its mechanics work before spouting such ignorance.

So let me Just try to take you to school for a bit;

It is widely understood, that to bowl quick, you need to have the following attributes or elements.

1) Supreme fast twitch fibre muscles: this is what most of the fastest bowlers have commonly. This is the raw ability to move your body quickly and to generate power and velocity.
A guy like Haris Rauf also has great fast twitch fibre, but he lacks in atleast one of the next two elements.

2) A good sprint speed to get the momentum. Just see how this helped Mark wood increase his pace after he lengthened his run up. Guys like Shoaib, Waqar, Lee and Zahid generated a tremendous amount of momentum through their run up.
In the modern age, Shami does this very well. However, he lacks in the next attribute.

A technically correct action:
Brett lee and Allan Donald had the perfect actions from a biomechanical standpoint; so much so that Lee's action is taught as a prototype in high performance centres worldwide.
View attachment 103857
View attachment 103858

A guy like Starc who collapses in his delivery stride cannot hold a candle to Lee, given how braced the latter's knee is which allows for maximum arm extension and torque generation.


One might argue that Nortje has a braced knee too, but look at his run up and compare that to Lee.
There is a world of difference in how much momentum they generate.
Mohammad Shami too doesnt have a braced knee and thereby, doesnt get as good an extension to generate pace upwards of 150 kph.

There will be an argument that Shoaib also had a bent knee. But with him, he had an abnormal physique, due to his hyperextension which allowed him extra leverage and arm speed than other bowlers.
This is precisely why Bumrah also generates his pace despite not having a run up. However his run up is so lacking in momentum that he cant crack the 150 kph consistently even though he is capable of it.


So next time, you try to argue on fast bowling, come with some technical knowledge instead of that "faulty speedgun" logic so that we can have a valid discussion for a change.

What? I agree with the points regarding hyperextension and biomechanics of the bowler.

I was referring to bowlers pre 90s era. Holding etc.

Shoaib was quick but he was never consistently quick in test.
Neither was Brett Lee.
I have seen them trundle in tests over long spells.

Their average speeds would be close to Starc. Their peak speak may be faster. actually Starc has bowled 160.

Of course there were faulty guns being utilised at the time. I remember Morkel clocking 173.

I remember Nehra clocking 150 plus and sami hitting close to 163 ROFL.

all these phassst bowlers pre 90s bowled in an era with dubiously faulty inaccurate speed guns so I am excluding all of them from the conversation.

I am not denying that Brett Lee and shaping etc were quick. They could be the quickest in terms of peak speed but their average bowling speed will never be much higher than 145 in test.

 

[Cric_lover4487]

Give me a substantial array of examples of Shoaib and lee bowling slower than today's bowlers.

Those guys used to bowl close to a 100 mph in test matches, and not for 4 overs in the IPL.

By the way, here is another one for you.

https://youtu.be/58qXzYSCUMw

Threatening 100mph once again in a test match, bowling New Zealand out single handedly for 73 where Pakistan scored 643.

Here is lee threatening the 100 mph mark in South Africa.
Come back to me when Starc, Archer, Nortje, Ferguson produce such spells regularly in test matches.
https://youtu.be/jXDCxpAgp90

Another one for Lee. This is one of his slower spells before the action change, which got him an extra yard of pace.

https://youtu.be/7aB3p-9_cyU

I think it’s embarrassing to compare likes of archer, Rabada with Shoaib and lee. I have seen Archer bowling 130s in test cricket, so early in his career. Shoaib was bowling 95+ even in his last match. He could easily bowl 90+ despite being 50% fit.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I've followed both Lee and Akhtar throughout their career. Both were much quicker than anyone we have these days.

Shaun Tait was at times faster than both. Watch some of his videos.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Bowling 24 deliveries in a T20 and an hour long spell in a test game are two entirely different things. It's obvious, but people seem to not consider it.


Shoaib Akhtar loved pace. It cost him everything but he made some legends of game fear and jump. It was something surreal. Even in last international game he was going 155kmph+, easily.

The day we see someone similar, I'll be the 1st one creating threads.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

And corrola is faster than ferrari.

 

[Rana]

I’ve seen Shoaib Akhtar live, he really was exceptionally quick. Bowlers nowadays don’t compare

 

[Majid Khan]

I remember watching Brett Lee for the first time live in an Ashes series in maybe 2000 after he had just made a comeback following injury , and thought to myself is this guy really as quick as some made him out to be or is it all hype? He was clocking in low to mid 80s for that test match and looked horribly out of rythym , and I thought he’s supposed to be as quick as Shoaib ?

And then came the next test and Brett Lee started to get a bit of rythym and was bowling not only better and looked more threatening but he was bowling quicker and in some spells was getting ball after ball in 90-95mph range with some exceeding that range - that’s when I realised his pace came through rythym but he was definitely up there with Shoaib in pace. Shoaib was more explosive if that’s the right word and Lee looked more an athlete and rythymic bowler.

 

[cric_4life]

The question is who creates terror in the mind of the batsmen?
A) Shoaib Akhtar or Brett Lee
B) Starc or Archer

It's not about consistent 90mph bowling it's about few deliveries which brings a chill down your spine as a batsmen. Once Ganguly was hit by Akhtar for Ganguly every single delivery from shoaib was a thunderbolt.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Bowlers who really deserve the pace demon tag:
1.Akhtar (undoubtedly the fastest)
2.Lee
3.Tait
4.Ferguson
5.Starc
6.Donald
7.Bond
8.Johnson(doubtful but still..)
9.Thomson
10.Waqar

Bowlers who operated in 130s and max 145:
1.Imran Khan
2.Wasim Akram
3.Dennis lillee
4.Michael Holding
5.Bob willis

There's a yt video which shows most of the 80s bowlers bowling in low 130s except thomson.
Michael holding was bowling high 120s to low 130s lol.

Sami was quick, so not a really good example.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Bowlers who really deserve the pace demon tag:
1.Akhtar (undoubtedly the fastest)
2.Lee
3.Tait
4.Ferguson
5.Starc
6.Donald
7.Bond
8.Johnson(doubtful but still..)
9.Thomson
10.Waqar

Bowlers who operated in 130s and max 145:
1.Imran Khan
2.Wasim Akram
3.Dennis lillee
4.Michael Holding
5.Bob willis

There's a yt video which shows most of the 80s bowlers bowling in low 130s except thomson.
Michael holding was bowling high 120s to low 130s lol.

Sami was quick, so not a really good example.

Pre-injury Waqar and Imran were genuine 90mph+ bowlers. Even Wasim Akram in late 80s/early 90s (before diabetes diagnostic) was faster than his late career.

It's a sad observation but being a fast bowler and continuous career threatening injuries go hand in hand

 

[Savak]

Brett Lee was a man possessed in the 2003 ODI WC, he steamed in and bowled every ball at 152-156 km/hr plus in every spell and in his opening spell he was touching 158-160 km/hr. That was the best and the most fiery i every saw him bowl.

Marvan Attapattu who had a solid defense which most bowlers could not penetrate was helpless against a 160 km/hr delivery from Lee.

 

[Artaxerxes]

WI had four or five fast bowlers in every test match.They were all quick so there was no respite for batsmen.There are very few genuine fast bowlers now.

 

[Rana]

I do think that the speed guns of the 2003 World Cup were inaccurate

Even Bichel was bowling at 92mph in that tournament.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ian Botham once said ( during 2002 India series in England ) that so called Speed Guns were basically modified traffic speed checkers used by police & not really accurate beyond a point

So yes the average speeds of bowlers 15-20 years back should be taken with a pinch of salt. I remember Javagal Srinath clocked 93 mph at 1999 WC & Glenn McGrath was 88 mph. If u watch them actually bowl in that WC, they were at least 3-5 mph slower

 

[pratiktc]

The 3 fastest bowlers I have seen live are Lee, Johnson and Flintoff.

TBH the speedguns in India in 2000s were faulty as hell.

Today's IPL speedguns are amped up to put fake pace for hype. There is no way likes of Prasidh Krishna are bowling 148 kmph

 

[Junaids]

Ian Botham once said ( during 2002 India series in England ) that so called Speed Guns were basically modified traffic speed checkers used by police & not really accurate beyond a point

So yes the average speeds of bowlers 15-20 years back should be taken with a pinch of salt. I remember Javagal Srinath clocked 93 mph at 1999 WC & Glenn McGrath was 88 mph. If u watch them actually bowl in that WC, they were at least 3-5 mph slower

It depends which speed guns you refer to.

The 1975-76 Australia v West Indies Test at Perth featured the University of Western Australia measuring the bowlers' speeds using Photo-Sonics 500 frame per second cameras which were - and still are TWENTY TIMES more accurate than 21st century cricket speed guns. You can still rent the machinery because it is still the Gold Standard.

In that Test, the following speeds were recorded, as you would expect with the two fastest attacks in history:

Jeff Thomson 160.45
Andy Roberts 157.36
Dennis Lillee 154.78
Michael Holding 153.17

You will notice that all these speeds were measured to TWO DECIMAL PLACES, whereas current technology is not accurate enough to provide speeds to more than one decimal place.

 

[tyron_woodley]

The 3 fastest bowlers I have seen live are Lee, Johnson and Flintoff.

TBH the speedguns in India in 2000s were faulty as hell.

Today's IPL speedguns are amped up to put fake pace for hype. There is no way likes of Prasidh Krishna are bowling 148 kmph

Lol prasidh is a quick bowler. He bowls 138-146 consistently.

 

[therealAB]

I do think that the speed guns of the 2003 World Cup were inaccurate

Even Bichel was bowling at 92mph in that tournament.

Party the guns also the atmosphere

 

[Junaids]

Sami is another case of a significant talent being wasted.

His Test bowling average is substantially better than Yasir Shah's away record. He had pace, he had away swing and he had the potential to become a very annoying Number 9 to try to dismiss.

In that period from 2005-2010 I think that Pakistan should have looked to field in Tests:

6. Abdul Razzaq
8. Shahid Afridi
9. Mohammad Sami
10. Shoaib Akhtar til 2009, then Mohammad Amir
11. Mohammad Asif

 

[NishanKonar]

Mohammad Sami was the textbook example of scattergun. Only pace, no accuracy & plan. Just run in and bowl fast without any focus on length & line. Even someone like Dhoni who was not so great against pace whacked him left right & centre. He took the Pace is pace yaar maxim too seriously & ended up becoming a parody

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Mohammad Sami was the textbook example of scattergun. Only pace, no accuracy & plan. Just run in and bowl fast without any focus on length & line. Even someone like Dhoni who was not so great against pace whacked him left right & centre. He took the Pace is pace yaar maxim too seriously & ended up becoming a parody

I felt Sami was a little too floaty. Just couldn't generate the bounce even at his fastest. He started his career at a time when pitches were getting extremely flat and that has to be factored in as well. [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] or [MENTION=152972]Pacy with wisdom[/MENTION] can explain the why part

 

[JibranAnsari]

I think mohammad sami didnt have a hairstyle of a fast bowler , so fast bowling wasnt very kind to him.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

I felt Sami was a little too floaty. Just couldn't generate the bounce even at his fastest. He started his career at a time when pitches were getting extremely flat and that has to be factored in as well. [MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] or [MENTION=152972]Pacy with wisdom[/MENTION] can explain the why part

Anybody who bowls half volleys upon half volleys is going to look floaty.
He didnt impart as much backspin on the ball and used to push it through instead of rolling it through. This is why he was also skiddier.

Sami was just not made for the big stage. A fragile and shy personality who just didn't feel like he belonged to that level.
He could be thumped into submission by any tailender and he would just accept it, and walk back to his mark acceptingly.
All of this is a shame, because he had everything aside from an extra couple of inches of height.

This is why i find it funny when the majority of the posters compare the new age Pakistani fast bowlers with him in a bid to mock them, when Sami himself was a very skillful bowler.

He needed a loyal father figure like captain all the time, who would make him believe in himself. Not surprisingly, his best performances came under Rashid, a guy he trusted in and played under at club level.

 

[M_kor]

Indians and their years long agenda of somehow showing how Pakistani bowlers weren't express ...now they decide to bring up this whole avg bowling speed