The Responsibility Of Immigrants

[Jadz]

There is always a great deal of discussion about anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies of far-right, right-wing Western governments and politicians. Whilst this reflects white supremacist ideology and continuing colonial mindset, it does not detract from the fact that some immigrants do contribute to the hatred directed at all immigrants by their conduct and attitude.

It is the responsibility of immigrants to exhibit gratitude to host countries, to educate themselves about local culture and traditions and to exercise restraint in the practice of their own - in the sense of not imposing their imported customs and religious beliefs upon the communities in which they live.

They ought to dress with decorum, keep their houses, gardens and places of work, worship and businesses clean. This is extremely important because one of the most oft-repeated complaints from indigenous peoples is how unclean, even dirty, immigrants are.

Regrettably, I have witnessed for myself how beautifully clean an area was - flats, houses, gardens, pavements, streets - and how appallingly unkempt it became after immigrants had moved into it. The former residents sold up and moved out in order to escape.

This is an especial reminder for Muslims: when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) migrated to Yathrib (Medina) from Mecca, he loved its people, their generosity, warmth and hospitality - and he responded in kind, as did the Muslim Community that had migrated before and after him. This is the example all Muslim immigrants should follow.

Immigrants may be subject to racism and discrimination, but it is their obligation to be patient in the face of adversity and, with utmost respect and sensitivity, invite host communities to learn about their own. Being welcoming and open, kind and compassionate, exchanging knowledge, ideas and experiences will, hopefully, lessen tensions, isolate extremists and eventually end hostility towards immigrants.

 

[Major]

You mentioned about learning the local culture and not import their own culture on them... Fair enough...

So tell me, would you allow your child to take part in secret santa or not? Secret santa is when during christmas hokiday season people at school or work exchange gifts.

I absolutely agree much of the hates immigrants get is because of their own actions by not indulging the community.

Hence, would you yourself or allow you child to part take in halloween trick or treating, or easter bunny hunts?

 

[Jadz]

You mentioned about learning the local culture and not import their own culture on them... Fair enough...

So tell me, would you allow your child to take part in secret santa or not? Secret santa is when during christmas hokiday season people at school or work exchange gifts.

I absolutely agree much of the hates immigrants get is because of their own actions by not indulging the community.

Hence, would you yourself or allow you child to part take in halloween trick or treating, or easter bunny hunts?

Thank you Brother - really appreciate your questions.

I think it is perfectly legitimate to express concerns about Halloween - - many Christians do not participate in it at all - and to convey these to school authorities. Above all else, it is important to instruct children as to exactly why Halloween should not be celebrated, to explain its meaning and purpose. Children often take part in school events because they are unaware of their origins, it is incumbent upon parents to teach them and to inform schools.


As for secret Santa, sorry but I don't really understand that at all, maybe you could explain? Gift-giving at any time strengthens bonds and ties to colleagues, relatives and friends, so I don't think giving presents at Christmas time is wrong or forbidden.

I also don't know anything about Easter bunny hunts - sorry! Please explain.

 

[Major]

What harm does Halloween does?

Secret santa is done in the essence of christmas. During december, co workers and students who want participate in this, they put their name in a jar. Each participating member picks out a name and the person whose name they pick out they have to buy him a christmas present without telling from who it was. It is celebrated in essence with christmas.

Easter bunny hunt is done mostly with kindergarden children. In essence with easter, chcolate eggs are hidden where toddlers are asked to search for them while dressed up in rabit costumes. Parents often have such festivals held in their back yard.

I am interested to know your views because these are part of the western culture, so would you be willing to indulge with your west friends and colleagues in such practises?

 

[Patriot]

What harm does Halloween does?

Secret santa is done in the essence of christmas. During december, co workers and students who want participate in this, they put their name in a jar. Each participating member picks out a name and the person whose name they pick out they have to buy him a christmas present without telling from who it was. It is celebrated in essence with christmas.

Easter bunny hunt is done mostly with kindergarden children. In essence with easter, chcolate eggs are hidden where toddlers are asked to search for them while dressed up in rabit costumes. Parents often have such festivals held in their back yard.

I am interested to know your views because these are part of the western culture, so would you be willing to indulge with your west friends and colleagues in such practises?

You are generalising and making it out as if these activities are ingrained in western culture. Not everyone does these activities. One team I worked with did the secret Santa and the other team hated it because they didn’t really care. These things are not as common in Europe and are more American. American culture is much more commercialised and so they promote such activities so that people spend money.

 

[Major]

You are generalising and making it out as if these activities are ingrained in western culture. Not everyone does these activities. One team I worked with did the secret Santa and the other team hated it because they didn’t really care. These things are not as common in Europe and are more American. American culture is much more commercialised and so they promote such activities so that people spend money.

Yes, i am talking from a north america pov.

These activites are part of their culturem whether you partake in it or not is a seperate issue.

I am just interested because muslims have issues in partaking in these western cultures and because op has said that immigrants should educate themselves about the local culture.
But is it till educating or should they partake in it aswell.

I believ if you dont partake than offcourse you will always be viewed as an outsider

 

[shaz619]

We are very critical of our own and what you say is absolutely correct but it’s not limited to muslim communities, the east midlands is a great example of this. And while I agree that efforts should be made to help these people, we must avoid demonising them during dangerous times. I”ll give you an example which once gave me a bit of a reality check with this, I had been spending a bit of time in an inner city area which was full of eastern European immigrants and the area to say the least was a bit dirty with rubbish everywhere and I recall during a taxi journey complaining about it to a local English bloke who had spent many years in that area and his first response was: “They haven’t been here that long and they are still adjusting” , I respect how the bloke was so protective and I think a community can grow together with such a spirit and it should also cancel some of our own criticisms and stereotypes surrounding adjustment and what that means in my view, those from abroad who are not born in the west especially are a bit ignorant and ill informed people when it comes to their understanding of western culture and the local population

 

[oatmeal]

The cleanliness part is the easiest to pick up for new migrants, but they need to make an effort. When I first moved to the UK, I saw a old retired man spending his free time picking up the trash left by others on the town streets. That left a deep impression. Back home its only the sanitation workers doing the cleaning, no one else cares.

 

[Champ_Pal]

When immigrants who have nothing in common in terms of culture or race enter a host nation, they will always find it hard to adjust. The culture shock can be too much for some to handle.

Multiculturalism is a great concept with great drawbacks. It is important to check the background of the immigrants thoroughly before letting them in.

 

[Jadz]

What harm does Halloween does?

Secret santa is done in the essence of christmas. During december, co workers and students who want participate in this, they put their name in a jar. Each participating member picks out a name and the person whose name they pick out they have to buy him a christmas present without telling from who it was. It is celebrated in essence with christmas.

Easter bunny hunt is done mostly with kindergarden children. In essence with easter, chcolate eggs are hidden where toddlers are asked to search for them while dressed up in rabit costumes. Parents often have such festivals held in their back yard.

I am interested to know your views because these are part of the western culture, so would you be willing to indulge with your west friends and colleagues in such practises?

Halloween is associated with worship of Satan, which is why Christians are prohibited from celebrating or participating in it.

Regarding gift-giving at Christmas, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with giving presents - many people in the West long abandoned any association of Christmas with Jesus (pbuh) and Christianity, for them it is simply a break - from work or school - and treated like a Winter holiday, after which they celebrate the New Year.

I did not know about the Easter hunts, so thank you for explaining. Yes, anything that remotely resembles Shirk (ascribing to Allah SwT partners, associates or offspring) is strictly prohibited. But again, I don't see Easter celebrated as a Christian holiday by the majority, they just enjoy the holidays, lots of chocolates and having plenty of fun with children - rather like Christmas.

The sad reality is that the West has distanced itself from Christianity and replaced it with materialistic ideologies which are God-less. However, as immigrants we must not denigrate host communities or their practises, we must be respectful and try to convey our own traditions, beliefs and customs without imposing them.

 

[Jadz]

The cleanliness part is the easiest to pick up for new migrants, but they need to make an effort. When I first moved to the UK, I saw a old retired man spending his free time picking up the trash left by others on the town streets. That left a deep impression. Back home its only the sanitation workers doing the cleaning, no one else cares.

Thank you for sharing that fascinating experience with us. What I found the most troubling - shocking - was Muslims behaving with utmost disregard for the places they lived, worked and worshipped in. They were so dirty, smelly and unclean I just could not explain it to my non-Muslim friends, it was incredibly embarrassing. Then, on Fridays, Muslims would dress up, spray perfume upon themselves and march down to the local Masjid to perform Juma'a Salaat - that memory has stayed with me. Why would Muslims do Wudu and live in unsanitary conditions? My Father would reprimand people and remind them of their obligations to be clean and to keep streets, their homes, children, wives clean and the importance of educating themselves - but the level of ignorance only increased their hostility towards him and our family.

Things have changed, but not much - I don't want to say too much for fear of being unkind or disrespectful. Suffice to say, Muslims have a duty to conduct themselves with dignity and to confer dignity upon host communities - that is the example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and al-Muhajirun.

 

[Technics 1210]

Halloween isn’t associated with Satan, but is in actual fact an event remembering the dead, albeit traced back to paganism.

 

[Local.Dada]

Halloween is associated with worship of Satan,.

What exactly is the source for this trivia?

 

[Jadz]

What exactly is the source for this trivia?

Why Christians should not celebrate Halloween
Halloween is a devil’s holiday, not a Christian observance

'The founder of the church of Satan said that by dressing up, either by wearing a costume or coloring oneself for Halloween, is tantamount to worshipping the devil.

Anton LaVey, the founder of the church of Satan, himself declared that by dressing up, either by wearing a costume or by coloring oneself in celebration of Halloween, signifies that you allow Satan to own you. He further said that when you adopt the pagan practices, you subconsciously dedicate yourself to the devil. He took joy in Christians who take part in the tradition, saying:

I am glad that Christian parents let their children worship the devil at least one night out of the year. Welcome to Halloween.

LaVey’s statement is corroborated by a former Satanist, John Ramirez, who said that when you dress up even as an angel or a mermaid for Halloween, “you give the devil the legal rights to change your identity.” Ramirez further warned that there’s a much darker reality in Halloween beyond costumes and candy. The former Satanist turned Christian pastor said in an interview on CBS News (October 20, 2018):

I was a general to the kingdom of darkness in witchcraft. I would sit with the devil and talk to him like I’m talking to you today. It was that kind of communication. It was that kind of relationship.

Christian teaching
With more than 2.2 billion adherents, Christianity comprises about 31.50% among all the organized religions in the world. And, based on a CBN News Facebook survey, 87% expressed that Christians should not celebrate Halloween, while 13% believe that there’s no problem celebrating it.

Christians are taught to be the light of the world. In one of the Scripture passages, we are instructed thus:

You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly father.

(Matthew 5:14-16)

Therefore, Christian believers have the moral responsibility to educate their children regarding the evil that comes with Halloween pumpkins, costumes, and the Trick-or-Treat tradition. Adults should likewise lead by example to the young ones.

Halloween history
The origin of Halloween can be traced back to the Celtic festival of Samhain. It’s a tradition held at the end of summer when sacrifices were made to the gods in Druid tradition. The adherents believed that Samhain, the god of death, scattered evil spirits during this time throughout the world to attack humans. These evil spirits play nasty tricks as soon as the dark winter and the waning of the sun set in.

To escape the attack, humans would assume disguises and make themselves look like evil spirits, too.

Halloween is also the favorite time of year for witches, or the advocates of Wicca. Wicca is the official religion of witchcraft. Wiccan adherents believe that on the night of October 31, the separation of physical and spiritual realities is at its thinnest and least guarded. And so, it’s the best time for those who have necromantic abilities to speak to the dead.

Pagan Halloween and Christian tradition
As Christianity spread through Europe, it came into conflict with the indigenous pagan beliefs. The organized church basically challenged the established customs by trying to introduce Christian alternatives. Although Christianity gained some converts, many were adamant. And so, the missionaries succeeded only in “Christianizing” pagan rituals. They were only able to introduce Christian symbols and practices to the pagan traditions, like the All Hallows Eve remembrance.

The missionaries injected the All Saints’ Day concept into the pagan Halloween celebration. They introduced the evening before All Saints’ Day as All Hallows Eve, when the time of solemn remembrance of the martyrs begins. The term was derived from “Hallowed”, which means holy. All Hallows Eve was shortened to “Hallow-e’en”, which eventually became “Halloween” over the years. The only difference between the two practices is that the early Christians’ observance of the Halloween never involved wearing costumes. It was rather a solemn event focused on prayer and meditation.

Sadly though, the pagan practices held a remarkably strong influence that some of the new converts were unable to abandon their old customs altogether. Over the years, other Christians adopted those customs, too. Besides, commercialization came into play. Thus, the practice of trick-or-treat, costumes, adornments, and make-up or body coloring is very much alive even up to the present.

Call to action
Christians are actually capable of reversing the evil of Halloween if, and only if, each one would live by the teachings of the One on whom they profess their faith. Parents should teach their children the appropriate way to commemorate All Saints Day.


https://www.meer.com/en/58292-why-christians-should-not-celebrate-halloween

 

[Major]

Halloween is associated with worship of Satan, which is why Christians are prohibited from celebrating or participating in it.

Regarding gift-giving at Christmas, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with giving presents - many people in the West long abandoned any association of Christmas with Jesus (pbuh) and Christianity, for them it is simply a break - from work or school - and treated like a Winter holiday, after which they celebrate the New Year.

I did not know about the Easter hunts, so thank you for explaining. Yes, anything that remotely resembles Shirk (ascribing to Allah SwT partners, associates or offspring) is strictly prohibited. But again, I don't see Easter celebrated as a Christian holiday by the majority, they just enjoy the holidays, lots of chocolates and having plenty of fun with children - rather like Christmas.

The sad reality is that the West has distanced itself from Christianity and replaced it with materialistic ideologies which are God-less. However, as immigrants we must not denigrate host communities or their practises, we must be respectful and try to convey our own traditions, beliefs and customs without imposing them.

You see these celebrations like that.

But we have a majority back home who want to move abroad but hate these celebrations and talk against them.

Anyways i am happy to know that you keep a more rarional approach to these holidays.

I believe holidays are one of the ways to indulge with the locals. If immigrants want to hate on their culture and traditions than its better such immigrants stay back home

As for keeping places clean, such people only learn through negative reinforcement. Dont know about europe but in Canada you can easily complain to the city and they would impose heavy fines, thats how many people learn.

 

[Major]

What exactly is the source for this trivia?

It was my favourite day... Enjoy tricko treating with friends and having huge stashes of candy and chips.

The segregation of geletin ones used to take up quite a time.

Sad alot of immigrant children cant celebrate such festives due to their parents

 

[RexRex]

Regrettably, I have witnessed for myself how beautifully clean an area was - flats, houses, gardens, pavements, streets - and how appallingly unkempt it became after immigrants had moved into it. The former residents sold up and moved out in order to escape.

This is so true .. particularly for south asian immigrants.

 

[Local.Dada]

Sad alot of immigrant children cant celebrate such festives due to their parents

Maybe in Britain. In US, Halloween is huge and it’s a kid friendly festival. Pretty much every kid goes trick or treating regardless of race and religion

There are lot of Indian/Pakistani families around where I live and most if not all kids dress up go trick or treating during Halloween including Muslim Pakistanis I know.

Unbelievable that people drag religion to everything. I don’t know maybe it had questionable origins but then again there are such dark stories behind every custom which is watered down and is deemed acceptable now.

It’s so stupid. What next people can’t watch horror movies or Harry Potter because it conflicts with the teaching of religion because it promotes magic and ghosts.

 

[Major]

Maybe in Britain. In US, Halloween is huge and it’s a kid friendly festival. Pretty much every kid goes trick or treating regardless of race and religion

There are lot of Indian/Pakistani families around where I live and most if not all kids dress up go trick or treating during Halloween including Muslim Pakistanis I know.

Unbelievable that people drag religion to everything. I don’t know maybe it had questionable origins but then again there are such dark stories behind every custom which is watered down and is deemed acceptable now.

It’s so stupid. What next people can’t watch horror movies or Harry Potter because it conflicts with the teaching of religion because it promotes magic and ghosts.

Exactly, but thats the issue we have back home. That soo much hate is preached that often immigrants dont indulge with society than

 

[Technics 1210]

Anton LaVey Was born in the 20th century. His opinion on what Halloween is, is not the same as what Halloween started off as.

From Wiki:

The word Halloween or Hallowe'en dates to about 1745[36] and is of Christian origin.[37] The word Hallowe'en means "Saints' evening".[38] It comes from a Scottish term for All Hallows' Eve (the evening before All Hallows' Day).[39] In Scots, the word eve is even, and this is contracted to e'en or een.[40] Over time, (All) Hallow(s) E(v)en evolved into Hallowe'en. Although the phrase "All Hallows'" is found in Old English, "All Hallows' Eve" is itself not seen until 1556.[39][41]

Some dude decides to change the meaning from Saint’s evening, to Satan worshipping, in the 20th century, and all of a sudden his take is Gospel. Yeah right.



Hmmm.

 

[Salma_T]

You see these celebrations like that.

But we have a majority back home who want to move abroad but hate these celebrations and talk against them.

Anyways i am happy to know that you keep a more rarional approach to these holidays.

I believe holidays are one of the ways to indulge with the locals. If immigrants want to hate on their culture and traditions than its better such immigrants stay back home

As for keeping places clean, such people only learn through negative reinforcement. Dont know about europe but in Canada you can easily complain to the city and they would impose heavy fines, thats how many people learn.

I live in Australia and guess what a lot of older Australians don't celebrate Halloween and it is seen as another commercial American holiday.

Growing up in the UK we did have sweets ready for kids for trickle treating but we never took part. I know younger kids do now but son hasn't and he is nearly 11!

In regards to Christmas, I have always participated in present giving with neighbours and work colleagues before marriage and since marriage with my husband's family.
[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] you are generalising and many organisations decide on behalf of minorities what is and isn't acceptable. Muslims haven't asked for Christmas to be cancelled anywhere yet it is portrayed in that manner many right wing papers/channels.

Being clean and tidy isn't hard and it should be a priority and I think that is more related to socio economic than race/faith per say.

 

[Jadz]

This is so true .. particularly for south asian immigrants.

And Arabs. Displaying smart phones, shiny new cars, possessing the latest widescreen TV and fancy gadgets - house inside is spotless, outside looks like a rubbish dump. I just don't get it.

 

[topspin]

There is always a great deal of discussion about anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies of far-right, right-wing Western governments and politicians. Whilst this reflects white supremacist ideology and continuing colonial mindset, it does not detract from the fact that some immigrants do contribute to the hatred directed at all immigrants by their conduct and attitude.

It is the responsibility of immigrants to exhibit gratitude to host countries, to educate themselves about local culture and traditions and to exercise restraint in the practice of their own - in the sense of not imposing their imported customs and religious beliefs upon the communities in which they live.

They ought to dress with decorum, keep their houses, gardens and places of work, worship and businesses clean. This is extremely important because one of the most oft-repeated complaints from indigenous peoples is how unclean, even dirty, immigrants are.

Regrettably, I have witnessed for myself how beautifully clean an area was - flats, houses, gardens, pavements, streets - and how appallingly unkempt it became after immigrants had moved into it. The former residents sold up and moved out in order to escape.

This is an especial reminder for Muslims: when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) migrated to Yathrib (Medina) from Mecca, he loved its people, their generosity, warmth and hospitality - and he responded in kind, as did the Muslim Community that had migrated before and after him. This is the example all Muslim immigrants should follow.

Immigrants may be subject to racism and discrimination, but it is their obligation to be patient in the face of adversity and, with utmost respect and sensitivity, invite host communities to learn about their own. Being welcoming and open, kind and compassionate, exchanging knowledge, ideas and experiences will, hopefully, lessen tensions, isolate extremists and eventually end hostility towards immigrants.

Excellent post.

I'm glad I'm not the one who shares these concerns.

The likes of [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] need to come to terms with this.

 

[Kroll]

Self righteous rant and a lot of stereotypical assumptions. OP needs to educate himself first before imposing his utopia on others.

 

[shaz619]

Self righteous rant and a lot of stereotypical assumptions. OP needs to educate himself first before imposing his utopia on others.

OP is a good poster so am surprised by these views tbh

 

[shaz619]

Excellent post.

I'm glad I'm not the one who shares these concerns.

The likes of [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] need to come to terms with this.

Self hatred is not the solution

 

[shaz619]

The prophet pbuh had rubbished dumped on him and still he looked to an alternative to get others to his way of thinking. These days you folk are so cowardly and cynical it’s unreal.

 

[Jadz]

Self righteous rant and a lot of stereotypical assumptions. OP needs to educate himself first before imposing his utopia on others.

I am 'herself' not 'himself' - I am a Muslim woman.

Kindly address the issues raised in my post - principally, responsibility of immigrants - and leave insults aside.

I have detailed personal experiences, observations and what I myself have witnessed whilst trying to avoid naming any one community. I have lived in Britain all my life and what I see is deeply troubling, and needs to be confronted. No point in playing the eternal victim, because many immigrants are not refugees or asylum seekers, they are economic migrants.

I am specific in calling upon Muslims to conduct themselves with decorum because that is the life-example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in Medina after he, his family and small Muslim Community migrated.

 

[Jadz]

Thank you Brother. I too am glad to hear that you share these concerns

 

[shaz619]

Taking the morale high ground from the sweet comfort of a UK birth is very easy. “Bad little immigrant do better” is naive, impractical and an uneducated response to root concerns which are not so simplistic and are at risk of inciting further disharmony, racism, violence and derail the potential for progress. We use the religion with pride and talk about the character of the prophet pbuh but don’t put it into practice ourselves. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Unfortunately a TLDR of this post is 'immigrants are dirty'

Whether that was the intention or not is debatable but thats sadly how it comes across.

While some of the statements could be true, they are not limited to immigrants and should be addressed to all citizens, no matter their background.

 

[daytrader]

Immigrants shouldn't be blamed for being dirty or unclean when most of them are living in the ghettos of many of these metropolises. In these ghettos, it doesn't matter who's living there, locals or immigrants, the ghettos will still come across as dirty as the areas simply don't get the same level of attention from the government as posh areas. Similarly it doesn't matter who lives in a posh area, it would come across as more clean.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You mentioned about learning the local culture and not import their own culture on them... Fair enough...

So tell me, would you allow your child to take part in secret santa or not? Secret santa is when during christmas hokiday season people at school or work exchange gifts.

I absolutely agree much of the hates immigrants get is because of their own actions by not indulging the community.

Hence, would you yourself or allow you child to part take in halloween trick or treating, or easter bunny hunts?

Most Pakistani Americans I know have no problem Halloween, or an Easter egg hunt. I myself went trick or treating once i moved to America. And i have participated in secret Santa at office.

However the people who hate immigrants, it does not matter how much they assimilate, they will hate them regardless. And for the people who are more open minded, it does not matter if they participate in local customs. They will welcome them regardless.

Best option is to have a healthy balance between preserving your own culture, and participating in the local culture. I really respect Pakistani women in this regards. Whether its a dawat or a wedding, they will always wear Pakistani clothes. Doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It is the responsibility of immigrants to exhibit gratitude to host countries, to educate themselves about local culture and traditions and to exercise restraint in the practice of their own - in the sense of not imposing their imported customs and religious beliefs upon the communities in which they live.

For the first generation sure, however subsequent generations who were born and bred in the country should not be expected to have gratitude.

They ought to dress with decorum, keep their houses, gardens and places of work, worship and businesses clean. This is extremely important because one of the most oft-repeated complaints from indigenous peoples is how unclean, even dirty, immigrants are.

Regrettably, I have witnessed for myself how beautifully clean an area was - flats, houses, gardens, pavements, streets - and how appallingly unkempt it became after immigrants had moved into it. The former residents sold up and moved out in order to escape.

I believe this is more of a socio-economic issue than an immigrant one. Poor areas are more likely to be "dirty" than more well off areas. So if a bunch of poor immigrants move into a middle class area, then their is a good chance that area will go down the drain. However if they were rich immigrants i don't think that would have happened.

 

[Jadz]

Immigrants shouldn't be blamed for being dirty or unclean when most of them are living in the ghettos of many of these metropolises. In these ghettos, it doesn't matter who's living there, locals or immigrants, the ghettos will still come across as dirty as the areas simply don't get the same level of attention from the government as posh areas. Similarly it doesn't matter who lives in a posh area, it would come across as more clean.

You interpret my post in terms of 'who is to blame' as opposed to the operative word in the title: 'Responsibility.' When an individual visits a person's house - especially if (s)he has not been invited (as is the case with most economic migrants) - it is their responsibility to conduct themselves with dignity, it is the host's responsibility to accord the visitor respect.

Of course poorer districts receive less local and State resources than middle class or wealthier ones, that is a given - but it is an entirely different subject. We can open up a thread about government austerity and its dire consequences upon the poorest, most vulnerable in society, I would be most happy to do that. However, my focus is upon the responsibility of immigrants to respect host communities, educate themselves and their children, and keep their homes, businesses, places of worship clean. Now if people - Muslims - find this simple message offensive and objectionable it shows to what degree the topic of immigrants has been weaponized and politicized.

And, with all due respect, there is no reason immigrants cannot clean up their own back yards, gardens or streets - do we have to depend upon local authorities for everything? Can we not pick up litter that is right in front of our houses? It's okay to dump rubbish on the roads but not okay to pick it up?

In any case, I reiterate my earlier point that Muslims have a particular responsibility in behaving respectfully towards their hosts in light of the life-example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[James]

I believe this is more of a socio-economic issue than an immigrant one. Poor areas are more likely to be "dirty" than more well off areas. So if a bunch of poor immigrants move into a middle class area, then their is a good chance that area will go down the drain. However if they were rich immigrants i don't think that would have happened.

I agree with this summary.

The grubby, smelly and poorly sanitised streets that are full of fly-tipped items and rubbish bags — and I have seen a fair few — tend to be found within areas of impoverishment (by developed country standards) and the postcodes that have the poorest socioeconomic status. (Believe it or not there are actual “ranking tables” kept on this stuff by the ONS…)

The aforementioned boroughs and towns typically have unemployment rates considerably higher than the national average, and educational attainment lower than the national average; there will often be an abundance of alcohol abuse and drug addiction; there will be ongoing gang and territory disputes with relatively easy & cheap access to lethal bladed weapons and concealable firearms.

This has all happened in the context of a history of minimal-to-zero funding or oversight from our Government.

Many such pockets of this existence in the UK can be variously found, in some specific parts of Greater London first of all, and then basically much of what can he found north of Oxford.

These areas are often populated by a mixture of White, Black, and Asian demographics of the working classes — some large families, some smaller families, some couples without children, and some single households — most of whom will be claiming state benefits of some kind in order to meet the ever rising costs of the monthly bills.

Unsanitary and uncaring behaviour comes from the mental depression, the economic depravation, and the general sense of hopelessness that is characteristic of these areas across the country — because, ultimately, many of these boroughs and towns have not seen an iota of improvement or investment for many decades. (This is why they all voted for Brexit)

In conclusion, the lack of tidiness is not specific to the immigrant households. It is a longstanding British socioeconomic phenomenon.

 

[daytrader]

You interpret my post in terms of 'who is to blame' as opposed to the operative word in the title: 'Responsibility.' When an individual visits a person's house - especially if (s)he has not been invited (as is the case with most economic migrants) - it is their responsibility to conduct themselves with dignity, it is the host's responsibility to accord the visitor respect.

Of course poorer districts receive less local and State resources than middle class or wealthier ones, that is a given - but it is an entirely different subject. We can open up a thread about government austerity and its dire consequences upon the poorest, most vulnerable in society, I would be most happy to do that. However, my focus is upon the responsibility of immigrants to respect host communities, educate themselves and their children, and keep their homes, businesses, places of worship clean. Now if people - Muslims - find this simple message offensive and objectionable it shows to what degree the topic of immigrants has been weaponized and politicized.

And, with all due respect, there is no reason immigrants cannot clean up their own back yards, gardens or streets - do we have to depend upon local authorities for everything? Can we not pick up litter that is right in front of our houses? It's okay to dump rubbish on the roads but not okay to pick it up?

In any case, I reiterate my earlier point that Muslims have a particular responsibility in behaving respectfully towards their hosts in light of the life-example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Immigrants come from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds though. They're not all the same. It's a fallacy to generalize them all as one group for any sort of 'responsibility'. The message is not so simple as you're making it seem as even Muslims are ethnically diverse. It shouldn't be about immigrants vs host responsibilities. There are broader factors at play especially the socio-conomic which need to be recognized for many of the problems that you've explained with immigrant communities.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Excellent post.

I'm glad I'm not the one who shares these concerns.

The likes of [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] and [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] need to come to terms with this.

I'm not an immigrant, this thread didn't really catch my attention for that reason, only reason I even looked at it was because I was alerted by your notification. I will have a look through and give my thoughts if you like though when the football is over.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I agree with this summary.

The grubby, smelly and poorly sanitised streets that are full of fly-tipped items and rubbish bags — and I have seen a fair few — tend to be found within areas of impoverishment (by developed country standards) and the postcodes that have the poorest socioeconomic status. (Believe it or not there are actual “ranking tables” kept on this stuff by the ONS…)

The aforementioned boroughs and towns typically have unemployment rates considerably higher than the national average, and educational attainment lower than the national average; there will often be an abundance of alcohol abuse and drug addiction; there will be ongoing gang and territory disputes with relatively easy & cheap access to lethal bladed weapons and concealable firearms.

This has all happened in the context of a history of minimal-to-zero funding or oversight from our Government.

Many such pockets of this existence in the UK can be variously found, in some specific parts of Greater London first of all, and then basically much of what can he found north of Oxford.

These areas are often populated by a mixture of White, Black, and Asian demographics of the working classes — some large families, some smaller families, some couples without children, and some single households — most of whom will be claiming state benefits of some kind in order to meet the ever rising costs of the monthly bills.

Unsanitary and uncaring behaviour comes from the mental depression, the economic depravation, and the general sense of hopelessness that is characteristic of these areas across the country — because, ultimately, many of these boroughs and towns have not seen an iota of improvement or investment for many decades. (This is why they all voted for Brexit)

In conclusion, the lack of tidiness is not specific to the immigrant households. It is a longstanding British socioeconomic phenomenon.

Good post. As someone who spent the first six years of my life living in a white council estate I know this very well. Even after moving out I still went back on occasions as my cousins lived there for a while longer. I think many posters have no real experience outside of their own bubbles and just pick up their views from the news media, not real life experience.