The resurgence of the left - Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn

[confused_amoeba]

I'm not as left wing as Sanders however I don't think you're understanding why he's resonating with people. Not all Sanders supporters are even socialists, nor are many Sanders supporters even calling for a socialist utopia. If you ask Sanders himself he'll admit even if elected he won't be able to take America in a socialist direction given the GOP's control of Congress.

To conservatives I say this - we've tried your way for 30 years and look what happened in 2008. Your way was unfettered neo-liberal dogma - the mantra of less regulation and tax cuts for the rich that's left Americans with decreasing living standards and stagnating wages DESPITE increased productivity. Kids are going to end up leaving college/university with a mountain of debt and their parents are having to take 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet. They're angry because under this supposed socialist that is President Obama, 90% of the income growth under the Obama recovery has gone to the top 1%. I know you're not a left-winger but do you accept this is a sign of a broken and unsustainable economic system ?

So when Sanders says things that EVEN people in Republican-voting states support - such as a higher minimum wage which shouldn't be beyond the reach of corporations who are raking in record profits, free college tuition, single-payer healthcare and tackling income inequality - these issues don't exist in a socialist vacuum - they're very real and that's why people are backing him. He's the only one with the guts to say it and if Sanders is as delusional as the Washington establishment says - then why is Hillary Clinton suddenly adopting Bernie's rhetoric ? Now apparently she's tough on banks and hates income inequality too !

American system was never supposed to be based on equality for all. Its a system based on merit. In the past, blue collar jobs were plentiful and even a high school grade was able to make a decent living. After China's awakening took all those jobs, the American working class has been seeing a slow but devastating decline in their income and benefits. Hence, the anger both on the right and left.

On the left, its directed towards the corporations and billionaires. On the right, its towards China and immigrants. Both misplaced. The reality is that the world has long become a global market and one can no longer be content with having no or minimum skills. If you push the corporations and the billionaires to pay more taxes, they will simply move their businesses out to countries with less regulation and taxes causing job loss and less tax revenue. If you punish China for lowering their currency or put tarrifs on chinese exports, that will jack up the prices of goods and end up hurting the common man. Its like spitting in the wind.

The truth is Americans instead of hoping for the next President to rescue them from the abyss, need to go back to school, get diplomas, get training in the skills that are required and in demand. Thousands if not millions of H1B workers come to America every year to fill in the positions regular Americans are not educated or trained enough to fill. That is the real revolution that is needed. To harnest the quintessential DIY spirit of America rather than going after imaginary villians dreamed up by Bernie and Trump.

 

[Markhor]

American system was never supposed to be based on equality for all. Its a system based on merit. In the past, blue collar jobs were plentiful and even a high school grade was able to make a decent living. After China's awakening took all those jobs, the American working class has been seeing a slow but devastating decline in their income and benefits. Hence, the anger both on the right and left.

On the left, its directed towards the corporations and billionaires. On the right, its towards China and immigrants. Both misplaced. The reality is that the world has long become a global market and one can no longer be content with having no or minimum skills. If you push the corporations and the billionaires to pay more taxes, they will simply move their businesses out to countries with less regulation and taxes causing job loss and less tax revenue. If you punish China for lowering their currency or put tarrifs on chinese exports, that will jack up the prices of goods and end up hurting the common man. Its like spitting in the wind.

The truth is Americans instead of hoping for the next President to rescue them from the abyss, need to go back to school, get diplomas, get training in the skills that are required and in demand. Thousands if not millions of H1B workers come to America every year to fill in the positions regular Americans are not educated or trained enough to fill. That is the real revolution that is needed. To harnest the quintessential DIY spirit of America rather than going after imaginary villians dreamed up by Bernie and Trump.

I agree with what you say that the labour market in the West has shifted towards jobs that require better skill and better training. The days of the blue collar manufacturing jobs are long, long gone and have been shifted to Asia and the Far East.

So then you have to make education affordable. If high skilled jobs are the future, then quality education must be invested in and available to the masses not just the wealthy that can afford it. Right now kids are taking on a mountain of debt once they leave college/university. Look at the numeracy and literacy metrics of America and the UK, we both embarrassingly lag behind many other countries, then we have to import these skills from elsewhere.

 

[Cracket]

The truth is Americans instead of hoping for the next President to rescue them from the abyss, need to go back to school, get diplomas, get training in the skills that are required and in demand. Thousands if not millions of H1B workers come to America every year to fill in the positions regular Americans are not educated or trained enough to fill. That is the real revolution that is needed. To harnest the quintessential DIY spirit of America rather than going after imaginary villians dreamed up by Bernie and Trump.

That is bull for the most part. There are more than enough Americans to fulfill the spots being filled by H1Bs. In fact, its Westerners who output more quality products in coding markets. You can see that in creative media and gaming segments such where Indian and Chinese software engineers are non-existent. Its just that H1Bs are willing to work for much lesser wages. And this is exactly not what the H1B is intented for but the Silicon Valley management loves it of course. There's real frustration among America's tech people - even the left leaning liberal IT workers, sys admins, network engineers on technology forums suddenly were admiring Trump for being the only one to speak against H1B exploitation.

I personally know Indian consultancy companies here in New Jersey, I was contacted by them when I graduated college, who run centers here which export IT consultants to business with fake resumes and padded experience. Its a practice mainstream America has no clue about as of yet but since the practice is so undercover and fortunately numbers are too low for it to cause any real damage to U.S. economy - but its a growing practice and eventually will need to be noticed by authorities.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] be like

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] be like

And as soon as he gets in power and has to make real-world decisions, his principles will become just as compromised.

I vote for compromised politicians who are competent.

 

[James]

If Corbyn is still the Labour leader in 2020 (which itself is unlikely), he will get trounced. The British public couldn't even bring themselves to vote for Slightly Red Ed in a General Election, so there's no way they'd go for a borderline communist in his mid 60s.

 

[Robert]

If Corbyn is still the Labour leader in 2020 (which itself is unlikely), he will get trounced. The British public couldn't even bring themselves to vote for Slightly Red Ed in a General Election, so there's no way they'd go for a borderline communist in his mid 60s.

Mr Corbyn will be 71 at the next general election.

 

[shaz619]

And as soon as he gets in power and has to make real-world decisions, his principles will become just as compromised.

I vote for compromised politicians who are competent.

Robert is a bigger bats fan then supes after all

 

[Markhor]

Very impressed with Bernie Sanders's interviews. People are sick of robotic, polished politicians with their pre-rehearsed talking points prepared by their army of PR advisers based on their focus groups. Sanders, and indeed Trump as much as I disagree with his views, come across as authentic and real human beings.

Sanders is saying the things mainstream Democrats haven't had the guts to say for years, standing up to the excessive political influence Wall Street has and criticising the appalling campaign finance system that allows corporations to legally bribe politicians so they get their huge tax cuts at the expense of ordinary Americans.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d7wuTs-UcmE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2qt2YOkIALA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[s28]

The Establishment of Right and Left are quite rightly worried and it's great to see. They are the ones who destroyed everybodies economic and national security over the last few decades.

 

[Robert]

Robert is a bigger bats fan then supes after all

)

Neatly done, sir!

 

[miandadrules]

And as soon as he gets in power and has to make real-world decisions, his principles will become just as compromised.

I vote for compromised politicians who are competent.

I've never brought in to this logic.

Any politician that comes to power will have to compromise. However, if you're on the left and then compromise you'll achieve more than starting from a compromised and shifting further right.

That's basic negotiation.

 

[Markhor]

For all the talk of Bernie Sanders not being 'electable', Sanders fares far better than Clinton does against every major GOP candidate. Here are the Quinnipiac polls for possible head-to-head contests (%):

Hillary Clinton 44-43 Donald Trump
Bernie Sanders 48-42 Donald Trump

Hillary Clinton 43-44 Jeb Bush
Bernie Sanders 49-39 Jeb Bush

Hillary Clinton 43-46 Ted Cruz
Bernie Sanders 49-39 Ted Cruz

Hillary Clinton 41-48 Marco Rubio
Bernie Sanders 47-41 Marco Rubio

Hillary Clinton 39-47 John Kasich
Bernie Sanders 45-41 John Kasich

Sanders has a +15% net favourability rating whereas Clinton has a -21% unfavourable rating. Now who has the "electability" problem again ?

 

[Robert]

For all the talk of Bernie Sanders not being 'electable', Sanders fares far better than Clinton does against every major GOP candidate.

Sanders has a +15% net favourability rating whereas Clinton has a -21% unfavourable rating. Now who has the "electability" problem again ?

I'd vote for Sanders.

 

[Convict]

Sanders is a lunatic. Believes in make believe Venezuelan economics.

 

[Convict]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] be like

Look at Corbyn on the Falklands. Completely gutless.

Would be willing to sell out thousands of British citizens to a second rate foreign banana republic that has no credible claim to the Falklands

 

[Adijazz1706]

Look at Corbyn on the Falklands. Completely gutless.

Would be willing to sell out thousands of British citizens to a second rate foreign banana republic that has no credible claim to the Falklands

It has a geographical claim of being a zillion miles closer to said islands. What does the UK have?

 

[Convict]

It has a geographical claim of being a zillion miles closer to said islands. What does the UK have?

The UK has the vastly superior claim of 98% of people who actually live on the islands wanting the UK.

People >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Geography

 

[Adijazz1706]

The UK has the vastly superior claim of 98% of people who actually live on the islands wanting the UK.

People >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Geography

In that case, there should be nothing Corbyn or any1 else can do about it.

 

[yasir]

Very impressed with Bernie Sanders's interviews. People are sick of robotic, polished politicians with their pre-rehearsed talking points prepared by their army of PR advisers based on their focus groups. Sanders, and indeed Trump as much as I disagree with his views, come across as authentic and real human beings.

Sanders is saying the things mainstream Democrats haven't had the guts to say for years, standing up to the excessive political influence Wall Street has and criticising the appalling campaign finance system that allows corporations to legally bribe politicians so they get their huge tax cuts at the expense of ordinary Americans.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d7wuTs-UcmE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2qt2YOkIALA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am not sure if going too far left to the route of Socialism is the solution, it can create lot more problems than we have now...I am not sure characterization of problems is all that correct, its more emotional than substantial. For example:

Corporate not paying taxes
One of the reason there are business tax break, because business create employment opportunity for the public, that servers the society and help government. For example because of Steve Jobs and Apple iPhone, there are more than 500k jobs created in US alone(not only by Apple, but entire eco system of Apps and mobile economy), Govt cannot start or create those kind of ventures... Taxes collected by Govt via that method far exceed the corporate taxes Apple saved by putting their $200B offshore, not just Taxes, but the economic and development impact of Apple innovation is far greater than just taxes...

Greed Does Works
You have to be careful and not get too extremist about American Venture Capitalism, that Capitalism creates new industries and feed the growth hungry society... It has its flaws but success too, for example: Internet was in the hand of Army and Govt sector for 20 years, they did not know what to do with it, in the hand of private sector and Wall Street aka American Venture Capitalists it become such a huge infrastructure for entire world... Again greeds plays a lot of role in that, not just intellectual genius of few... Only genius of Govt was not to regulate it, lets the kids(new comers) play without being bullied by Old(established businesses) guys...

You cannot get rid of greed completely like you cannot expect people to be only driven by greed... Its always going to be both, greed and fear has motivated us more than other ideas throughout our evolution, I don't see that going to change ever...

Bigger is better creates Empires

This is again kind of genius of free market economy is that there is no upper limit, people keep on shooting for bigger dreams...Even in past when societies and people hold on to their dreams and keep getting greedy(being bigger) empires were made... Look at Romans, Muslims, Mongols, British etc, bigger is better idea lead them to great heights...

Today many big companies started small, by few people, that keep on getting bigger and bigger all the time... If those ideas are blocked by heavy regulation, new industries and business will also get stifled... Industries which are heavily regulated are less innovate...Hi-Tech is less regulated so it moves fast, compare to other industries(healthcare, law, finance, auto etc), but that's why Hi-Tech influence the society and future lot more than other industries as well...

But this also creates income gap as well... You are not going to create billions of Steve Jobs or Wasim Akram by teaching(even if we do, bar will be raised at the top again)... By definition you cannot have billions at the top... Look at us, we are intelligent species than the rest, more intelligent we get more we exploit the rest and that is applicable to all of us... Equality is very hard to achieve, you will loose a whole lot before reaching that goal...

Economic System is complex

Economic System has become complex because of newer variables added all the time; interconnected world means interdependency both at micro and macro level, even technology is creating disrupting in many ways not expected or still fully understand by most...

For example: The more we automate the business, social and economic processes using technology the less society will depend upon Human, means less jobs for people to do... Should Govts and societies regulate to block those moves? - Well that's a tricky issue, its like blocking progress, same way people were against education of poor and many other social reforms ideas of past few centuries...If there is better way to do something, ignoring it deliberately is a step backward... We still don't fully understand the disruption this large scale automation will cause few decades down the road, but not investing init is not an option either...

Same goes with interconnected societies and integrated economics it will remove duplicates (only the most efficient processes and systems will remain, rest will die out of competition) and cause more loss of jobs...

Similarly for many jobs, Human cannot compete with Technology, for example: There are million people making iPhones in China, but that's very repetitive and frustrating work(putting 1000 iPhones screen or putting one specific screw can be done much better by machine), automation of such labor work is inevitable, but will loose many jobs... Not just that there are 5M truck drives in USA alone, who can loose their jobs in couple of decades as auto trucks become norm...We are right now working on Automating Infrastructure via DevOPs, means need of dedicated operation (and many dev functions) is not needed down the road, first we outsourced to India and now out source to machine, that is more efficient and cost effective... Problem in all those cases is that not doing it is not a wise option for society/company/govt...

Creating artificial jobs to keep people busy can only work for so long and so far... Communists tried both model, keep everybody equal(both economically and socially in many ways) and created too many unnecessary jobs to keep people employed... That did not helped, society become inefficient and stagnant... Focus moved away from progress/innovation...

 

[Couch Cricketer]

I am not sure if going too far left to the route of Socialism is the solution, it can create lot more problems than we have now...I am not sure characterization of problems is all that correct, its more emotional than substantial. For example:

Corporate not paying taxes
One of the reason there are business tax break, because business create employment opportunity for the public, that servers the society and help government. For example because of Steve Jobs and Apple iPhone, there are more than 500k jobs created in US alone(not only by Apple, but entire eco system of Apps and mobile economy), Govt cannot start or create those kind of ventures... Taxes collected by Govt via that method far exceed the corporate taxes Apple saved by putting their $200B offshore, not just Taxes, but the economic and development impact of Apple innovation is far greater than just taxes...

Greed Does Works
You have to be careful and not get too extremist about American Venture Capitalism, that Capitalism creates new industries and feed the growth hungry society... It has its flaws but success too, for example: Internet was in the hand of Army and Govt sector for 20 years, they did not know what to do with it, in the hand of private sector and Wall Street aka American Venture Capitalists it become such a huge infrastructure for entire world... Again greeds plays a lot of role in that, not just intellectual genius of few... Only genius of Govt was not to regulate it, lets the kids(new comers) play without being bullied by Old(established businesses) guys...

You cannot get rid of greed completely like you cannot expect people to be only driven by greed... Its always going to be both, greed and fear has motivated us more than other ideas throughout our evolution, I don't see that going to change ever...

Bigger is better creates Empires

This is again kind of genius of free market economy is that there is no upper limit, people keep on shooting for bigger dreams...Even in past when societies and people hold on to their dreams and keep getting greedy(being bigger) empires were made... Look at Romans, Muslims, Mongols, British etc, bigger is better idea lead them to great heights...

Today many big companies started small, by few people, that keep on getting bigger and bigger all the time... If those ideas are blocked by heavy regulation, new industries and business will also get stifled... Industries which are heavily regulated are less innovate...Hi-Tech is less regulated so it moves fast, compare to other industries(healthcare, law, finance, auto etc), but that's why Hi-Tech influence the society and future lot more than other industries as well...

But this also creates income gap as well... You are not going to create billions of Steve Jobs or Wasim Akram by teaching(even if we do, bar will be raised at the top again)... By definition you cannot have billions at the top... Look at us, we are intelligent species than the rest, more intelligent we get more we exploit the rest and that is applicable to all of us... Equality is very hard to achieve, you will loose a whole lot before reaching that goal...

Economic System is complex

Economic System has become complex because of newer variables added all the time; interconnected world means interdependency both at micro and macro level, even technology is creating disrupting in many ways not expected or still fully understand by most...

For example: The more we automate the business, social and economic processes using technology the less society will depend upon Human, means less jobs for people to do... Should Govts and societies regulate to block those moves? - Well that's a tricky issue, its like blocking progress, same way people were against education of poor and many other social reforms ideas of past few centuries...If there is better way to do something, ignoring it deliberately is a step backward... We still don't fully understand the disruption this large scale automation will cause few decades down the road, but not investing init is not an option either...

Same goes with interconnected societies and integrated economics it will remove duplicates (only the most efficient processes and systems will remain, rest will die out of competition) and cause more loss of jobs...

Similarly for many jobs, Human cannot compete with Technology, for example: There are million people making iPhones in China, but that's very repetitive and frustrating work(putting 1000 iPhones screen or putting one specific screw can be done much better by machine), automation of such labor work is inevitable, but will loose many jobs... Not just that there are 5M truck drives in USA alone, who can loose their jobs in couple of decades as auto trucks become norm...We are right now working on Automating Infrastructure via DevOPs, means need of dedicated operation (and many dev functions) is not needed down the road, first we outsourced to India and now out source to machine, that is more efficient and cost effective... Problem in all those cases is that not doing it is not a wise option for society/company/govt...

Creating artificial jobs to keep people busy can only work for so long and so far... Communists tried both model, keep everybody equal(both economically and socially in many ways) and created too many unnecessary jobs to keep people employed... That did not helped, society become inefficient and stagnant... Focus moved away from progress/innovation...

Today the US infrastructure is becoming obsolete. People have died because basic services were given to the corporations without any government controls. Pure capitalism or pure socialism does not work their is a need for balance. Today the US government has moved to much to the right needs to go back to the center that can only be achieved if someone starts from the left. Today Democrats are in the center republicans on far right. So the government is run center right.

Sent from my SM-G925I

 

[Robert]

It has a geographical claim of being a zillion miles closer to said islands. What does the UK have?

A section of Typhoons, integrated air defence network and a battalion of dug-in infantry.

And 5000 out of 5000 civilians who want to be British.

 

[Markhor]

I am not sure if going too far left to the route of Socialism is the solution, it can create lot more problems than we have now...I am not sure characterization of problems is all that correct, its more emotional than substantial. For example:

[MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] - You raise some very valid points and I don't dispute some of Sanders's platform is unrealistic especially with an obstructionist Republican Congress. However Sanders is not going to recreate Venezeula or Castro's Cuba like some are saying - infact Sanders is your classic New Deal Democrat who wouldn't have looked out of place in the party in the 60s and 70s so I object to your statement that he's going to move the country far left. He appears "far left" to the Washington consensus because the so-called "sensible centre" has moved SO FAR to the right since Reagan.

Regarding corporation tax, I certainly don't want the likes of Apple to be run out of town. That's not the Sanders position either, of course they create jobs and opportunities that the economy needs. What is a problem are corporations benefiting from a system that is grotesquely unfair to everybody else. A small or medium sized business who also create jobs for their community do NOT have the luxury to hire the expensive lawyers and accountants who can exploit these tax loopholes or shift profits to the Cayman Islands.

Also its not a one way street. Corporations get to be successful ALSO because rely on infrastructure paid by you and me - the taxpayer. They rely on employees who've attended public education funded by us. Many corporations have also taken advantage of govt bailout funds and state subsidies - yet stash their profits overseas avoiding repaying what they owe to society, e.g. Citigroup received $2.5 trillion of taxpayer bailouts, stashed $43.8 billion of profits overseas, and would owe $11.7 billion if this money is repatriated.

Is it not unreasonable to ask for a small sum of this money to fund for example free college education that'll consequently benefit all of us through a well educated, well earning workforce that'll in turn stimulate the economy ?

About regulation, sure it shouldn't stifle business activity or become too burdensome but every society needs a reasonable amount of regulation. We need environmental standards to stop companies from polluting our air and water. We need regulations to ensure the food we eat doesn't contain chemicals that'll harm our health. And if only we had enforced regulation of the sub-prime mortgage market ! This regulation is evil mentality, first initiated by Reagan/Thatcher and embraced by Clinton/Blair led us to this mess where we turned a blind eye to banks engaging in reckless lending and taking on too much risk. Sanders is right to point out the madness that its not Congress regulating Wall Street, its Wall Street regulating Congress as many politicians have taken massive campaign contributions from them yet they're the ones meant to be overseeing these same banks !

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Today the US infrastructure is becoming obsolete. People have died because basic services were given to the corporations without any government controls. Pure capitalism or pure socialism does not work their is a need for balance. Today the US government has moved to much to the right needs to go back to the center that can only be achieved if someone starts from the left. Today Democrats are in the center republicans on far right. So the government is run center right.

Sent from my SM-G925I

Explain how ? . Got examples of this ?

 

[Adijazz1706]

A section of Typhoons, integrated air defence network and a battalion of dug-in infantry.

And 5000 out of 5000 civilians who want to be British.

From 98% in Convicts post some time ago to 100% now. That escalated quickly. The question is, what can Corbyn do in this situation?

 

[Robert]

From 98% in Convicts post some time ago to 100% now. That escalated quickly. The question is, what can Corbyn do in this situation?

The ballot held last year was 99.6% in favour of staying a British Overseas Territory. I guess a few South Americans who have married the Islanders voted against.

Mr Corbyn has to get elected PM first, which I very much doubt will happen. Then there would be a motion in the Commons which I expect would be defeated as plenty of Labour MPs would vote against or abstain. In any event I expect Boris Johnson to be PM in 2020.

The sad thing about the Falklands is that, without the invasion of 1982, there would probably have been a negotiated settlement by now. As is, there never will be.

 

[s28]

lovely little video of Corbyn doing an impression of Ian Paisley whilst recounting a story about Tony Benn

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jeremy Corbyn doing an Ian Paisley impression whilst recounting a story about Tony Benn is quite amusing... <a href="https://t.co/swP2fyJ5Ig">pic.twitter.com/swP2fyJ5Ig</a></p>— The Absolute Boy JC (@TheBirmingham6) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheBirmingham6/status/944162164755124224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">22 December 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

lovely little video of Corbyn doing an impression of Ian Paisley whilst recounting a story about Tony Benn

Sounds too ‘Hampshire’ like John Arlott, he should move it more into the roof and front of his mouth.

I would happily discuss the Battle of the Boyne with Doctor Paisley too.

 

[shaz619]

People don't like this guy but the Tories are sucking the life out of Britain, I don't see anyone thinking along the same line unless they can empathise with all the people who are struggling, it's so upsetting.

 

[Robert]

People don't like this guy but the Tories are sucking the life out of Britain, I don't see anyone thinking along the same line unless they can empathise with all the people who are struggling, it's so upsetting.

This is the problem. The Tories are truly dreadful. Their statesman of the eighties and nineties - Hezza, Clarke, Major - have been replaced by a bunch of careerists who the think they rule out of birthright. They don’t want to make the country better, they merely want to stay in power because they think they are our natural rulers.

Unfortunately Corbyn is so unconvincing to older voters that a lot of them will keep voting Tory to stop him becoming PM.

What a mess.

 

[shaz619]

This is the problem. The Tories are truly dreadful. Their statesman of the eighties and nineties - Hezza, Clarke, Major - have been replaced by a bunch of careerists who the think they rule out of birthright. They don’t want to make the country better, they merely want to stay in power because they think they are our natural rulers.

Unfortunately Corbyn is so unconvincing to older voters that a lot of them will keep voting Tory to stop him becoming PM.

What a mess.

Regardless of your views on Corbyn, majority of those fellas will vote Tory regardless.

 

[Robert]

Regardless of your views on Corbyn, majority of those fellas will vote Tory regardless.

You’d be surprised. Plenty of old lefties about, more of them men than women. But the older you get, the less likely you are to be fooled.

 

[shaz619]

You’d be surprised. Plenty of old lefties about, more of them men than women. But the older you get, the less likely you are to be fooled.

There are more righty then lefty oldies, most are too stubborn and dopey to change their outdated views

 

[s28]

Robert praises Hezza but forgets Hezza has said Tory old voters attrition rate will see Corbyn in power at next election

 

[Robert]

There are more righty then lefty oldies, most are too stubborn and dopey to change their outdated views

I never underestimate older people. They have been around longer than me. They have seen more things. They are wiser than I.

Some of them can remember what Corbyn’s policies actually look like when enacted.

Actually so can I, which is why I don’t want to go back. Socialism was tried and it failed, then neoliberalism ran its course.

We need a new paradigm.

 

[Robert]

Robert praises Hezza but forgets Hezza has said Tory old voters attrition rate will see Corbyn in power at next election

That’s interesting. Lord Hezza sees the average age of Tory constituency parties. But then those older voters will be replaced by middle aged voters retiring. People tend to drift to the right as they age.

 

[James]

I never underestimate older people. They have been around longer than me. They have seen more things. They are wiser than I.

Some of them can remember what Corbyn’s policies actually look like when enacted.

Actually so can I, which is why I don’t want to go back. Socialism was tried and it failed, then neoliberalism ran its course.

We need a new paradigm.

How about no Left or Right anymore - just Pragmatism - do what works - try and be more collaborative in Parliament, in order to deliver what is best for Britain. We had a pragmatic, collaborative government throughout World War Two and that was arguably our finest hour. Particularly with Brexit on the horizon we need more of a cross-party consensus.

 

[Robert]

How about no Left or Right anymore - just Pragmatism - do what works - try and be more collaborative in Parliament, in order to deliver what is best for Britain. We had a pragmatic, collaborative government throughout World War Two and that was arguably our finest hour. Particularly with Brexit on the horizon we need more of a cross-party consensus.

Hallelujay, yes!

 

[s28]

No thanks that is what Blairite managerial neoliberalism was. Pragmatic centrism. It gave us Iraq War , Global Financial Crisis and Brexit

You don't get to claim you were in power for three terms but deny responsibility for the mess you left behind

 

[Robert]

No thanks that is what Blairite managerial neoliberalism was. Pragmatic centrism. It gave us Iraq War , Global Financial Crisis and Brexit

The hard right Bush 43 brought us the Iraq War, which would have happened without British involvement, and the 2008 crisis too, after the mortgage lenders were deregulated.

 

[James]

No thanks that is what Blairite managerial neoliberalism was. Pragmatic centrism. It gave us Iraq War , Global Financial Crisis and Brexit

You don't get to claim you were in power for three terms but deny responsibility for the mess you left behind

I would consider both Mr Blair and his friend Mr Bush to be neoconservatives above anything else.

 

[s28]

an article from the supposed left publication The New Statesman on Corbyn still trying to work him and his project out 3 years later

When Corbyn and his allies refer to themselves as “the new political mainstream”, they are, in Gramscian terms, seeking to redefine “common sense”. As Jeremy Gilbert, professor of cultural and political theory at the University of East London, told me: “They [the Corbynites] understand hegemony in a way that the Blairites didn’t. They thought that hegemony meant perpetual centrism, always accommodating [Thatcherism], rather than trying to build a coalition from as far left as possible into the centre.” Gilbert added: “There are two aspects to hegemony: on the one hand you have to expand your coalition as far as possible, but you also have to draw some lines and identify your enemies.”

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/meaning-corbynism

 

[Robert]

Ah yes, I read that article @s28. Found it quite enlightening regarding internal Labour politics since the early eighties.

 

[Markhor]

Renzi has crashed and burned in Italy with his party doing worse than expected.

Another example of technocratic centrism proving increasingly out of favour with working class voters who are turning to populist parties like the Five Star Movement and Northern League.

Germany's SPD is suffering the same fate with the rise of AFD, and propping up Merkel again is not sitting well with their base.

Time to get real progressives in across Europe and give the right a real fight. Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos etc have shown the way.

 

[s28]

Good to see the hypocrite Jon Lansman has been forced to quit his attempts to take more power for himself at the top of Labour

http://georgegalloway.com/on/2018/03/10/the-lansmangate/

 

[s28]

The 'Left' Tsunami is coming

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In an ad, <a href="https://twitter.com/CynthiaNixon?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CynthiaNixon</a> announced she's challenging <a href="https://twitter.com/NYGovCuomo?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NYGovCuomo</a> in the primary, stating "something has to change." <a href="https://t.co/ugAA07Gpqo">https://t.co/ugAA07Gpqo</a></p>— Twitter Moments (@TwitterMoments) <a href="https://twitter.com/TwitterMoments/status/975802361561174018?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">19 March 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[s28]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I love New York, and today I'm announcing my candidacy for governor. Join us: <a href="https://t.co/9DwsxWW8xX">https://t.co/9DwsxWW8xX</a> <a href="https://t.co/kYTvx6GZiD">pic.twitter.com/kYTvx6GZiD</a></p>— Cynthia Nixon (@CynthiaNixon) <a href="https://twitter.com/CynthiaNixon/status/975794613221982209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">19 March 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

The 'Left' Tsunami is coming

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In an ad, <a href="https://twitter.com/CynthiaNixon?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CynthiaNixon</a> announced she's challenging <a href="https://twitter.com/NYGovCuomo?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NYGovCuomo</a> in the primary, stating "something has to change." <a href="https://t.co/ugAA07Gpqo">https://t.co/ugAA07Gpqo</a></p>— Twitter Moments (@TwitterMoments) <a href="https://twitter.com/TwitterMoments/status/975802361561174018?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">19 March 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Nixon is on 19% compared to Cuomo’s 66%.

Is there really a left in America?

 

[s28]

Corbyn was 200-1 at the start of the Labour leadership race. You got that wrong too.

Funny you never resort to the cold hard reality of the numbers in support of your limp liberal Remain position. 48% voted Remain but only 7% support the Remaintard Liberals.

 

[Robert]

Corbyn was 200-1 at the start of the Labour leadership race. You got that wrong too.

Funny you never resort to the cold hard reality of the numbers in support of your limp liberal Remain position. 48% voted Remain but only 7% support the Remaintard Liberals.

There you go again, I state a fact, ask a question, you don’t like it and attack me personally and start throwing insults.

I challenge you to up your game. Get off the bottom of the pyramid of debate.

Tell me about Nixon. What positions does she take which make her left wing in the European sense of the term?

 

[James]

The American left seems to be relative at best. Many Democrats in the US definitely support left-wing social positions (universal healthcare, welfare state, LGBT rights) but the economic norm for every party (and most Independent candidates) locates itself bare minimum as centre-right, and in the case of some Democrats and most Republicans it leans very far to the right. The Americans have had anti-communist views so brutally drilled into them over the years that it would be very difficult to imagine a socialist US economy.

 

[s28]

By the way Cynthia Nixon only announced she would run for Governor yesterday so any reasonably intelligent observer would know that a 'snap poll' taken before she announces a manifesto or gets her campaign off the ground is totally useless against a well known incumbent.

 

[Robert]

By the way Cynthia Nixon only announced she would run for Governor yesterday so any reasonably intelligent observer would know that a 'snap poll' taken before she announces a manifesto or gets her campaign off the ground is totally useless against a well known incumbent.

More ad hominem. Come on. Do better. What are Nixon’s social and economic positions that put her on the left? Do you know? How do you know if she hasn’t announced her manifesto?

 

[Markhor]

Corbyn was 200-1 at the start of the Labour leadership race. You got that wrong too.

Funny you never resort to the cold hard reality of the numbers in support of your limp liberal Remain position. 48% voted Remain but only 7% support the Remaintard Liberals.

I'm a progressive but there's no need to resort to crude insults towards your opponents like this. Tony Benn was always civil and courteous to those he disagreed with and never demonised his opponents.

Anyway, I found the income inequality town hall that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren hosted last night to be very enlightening.

The lady from rural Alabama especially.gave a heartbreaking description of how there is a school in one of the poorest counties in the state that is surrounded by raw sewage due to inadequate waste disposal infrastructure. As a result, children have been found exposed to tropical diseases and parasites. Even a UN special racconteur who arrived at the scene was shocked to see this occur in the First World.

The US 2018 mid terms and UK local elections will be a good litmus test to see whether the progressive movements are gaining ground.

 

[s28]

Cenk makes the point in this that it was Clinton 63% Sanders 3% at the start of the Democratic Presidential Candidate campaign

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TsCF1yWj4hc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[s28]

"Let's talk about socialism. I think it's very important to bring back the idea of socialism into the national discussion to where it was at the turn of the [last] century before the Soviet Union gave it a bad name. Socialism had a good name in this country. Socialism had Eugene Debs. It had Clarence Darrow. It had Mother Jones. It had Emma Goldman. It had several million people reading socialist newspapers around the country. Socialism basically said, hey, let's have a kinder, gentler society. Let's share things. Let's have an economic system that produces things not because they're profitable for some corporation, but produces things that people need. People should not be retreating from the word socialism because you have to go beyond capitalism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn

 

[s28]

 

[James]

Socialism, Communism and Anarchism are all genuinely brilliant and ingenious concepts theoretically. The Left certainly holds an intellectual monopoly over most branches of political philosophy. The challenge facing the Left however is that the pioneers tend to be incredibly fair-minded, educated and intelligent people who could themselves make the ideas work in practice, whereas the masses whom they speak for - less so. It is sometimes difficult to move past a broadly cynical view of the human race IMO, given our chequered and blood-stained history.

 

[s28]

This is pretty big in US terms

Peter Daou was a big Clinton adviser and almost rabidly anti Sanders/The Left

Now he has come out unequivocally for the Left

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WHY I'M MOVING LEFT<br><br>After 20 years in politics, both as an anti-Bush/Cheney activist and as a Dem strategist, I see that the centrist, bipartisan, incrementalist, GOP-lite approach is a disaster. We've tried it and lost ground, now it's time for unapologetic progressivism.</p>— Peter Daou (@peterdaou) <a href="https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1138569634184073218?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 11, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

Jeremy Corbyn will be blocked from standing as a Labour MP at the next general election, Sir Keir Starmer will confirm at a meeting of the party's ruling body today.

The Labour leader will propose a motion that will make clear that the National Executive Committee (NEC) will not endorse his predecessor to fight for his Islington North seat.

SKYNEWS

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Jeremy Corbyn accuses Israel of ‘cleansing entire population of Gaza’

Former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has accused Israel of undertaking an “act of cleansing of the entire population of Gaza”.

The Islington North MP said Israel’s response is in “no way proportionate” to the “appalling events” of October 7, which saw 1,200 Israelis killed when Hamas carried out its attack.

Mr Corbyn sought assurances that there are no British soldiers “on the ground in Gaza”.

His remarks came during a Commons session in which Foreign Office minister Leo Docherty said talk of a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict is “premature”, amid calls from MPs for an end to the fighting.

Mr Docherty said Hamas being “committed to the destruction” of Israel means the UK Government continues to press for a further humanitarian pause – rather than a ceasefire – to free hostages and allow aid to reach Gaza.

Conservative former minister Rehman Chishti said the “time has come” for the UK to work towards a ceasefire while several Labour backbenchers supported a “permanent ceasefire”.

Speaking during the urgent question, Independent MP Mr Corbyn told the Commons: “Israel is clearly undertaking an act of cleansing of the entire population of Gaza.

It's clear that the Israeli objective is to defend itself against a terrorist group of Hamas

Leo Docherty
“It is illegal within international law and is in no way a proportionate response to the appalling events of October 7.

“So could I ask him what does he think Israel’s long-term objective is? Is it to expel the entire population of Gaza into Egypt?

“And could he say what is the role and purpose and military objective of British military participation in the whole area? And can he assure us that there are no British soldiers on the ground in Gaza?”

Mr Docherty replied: “Unsurprisingly I don’t share his assessment or his view of the context.

“It’s clear that the Israeli objective is to defend itself against a terrorist group of Hamas.”

MSN