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True believers from Abrahamic religions. Do you believe Adam & Eve were the first human beings?

Yossarian

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How many of you who claim to be firm believers in, and followers of, Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism) then also believe in the story of Adam and Eve (albeit with slight variations), that they were the first human beings, and that all mankind descended from them?

In theory, in order to be a true believer, it is also necessary to believe in Adam and Eve as being the ancesters of all human beings, dead or alive. Which, by implication, also means that Adam and Eve's children married/reproduced with each other.

[....]

According to a Gallup poll (from 2014) over 42% of all Americans (ie over 130 million people), a relatively well educated population, believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago.

In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins

PRINCETON, NJ -- More than four in 10 Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago, a view that has changed little over the past three decades. Half of Americans believe humans evolved, with the majority of these saying God guided the evolutionary process. However, the percentage who say God was not involved is rising

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
 
Without a shadow of a doubt, Adam and his wife were the first two people ever created. However, this 10,000 years business is not true and not an Islamic teaching.
 
Of course I do. I believe Adam (pbuh) was created out of some kind of clay. Not sure though. I think Eve was taken out of his ribs or something of that sort.

There are 4 billion people who are either Christians or Muslims. So even if a small amount of Christians don't believe in Adam, still about half of the world population believes in him.
 
[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
So you believe/accept that we all are the result of Adam and Eve's children (ie brothers and sisters) sleeping/reproducing with each other?
 
[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
So you believe/accept that we all are the result of Adam and Eve's children (ie brothers and sisters) sleeping/reproducing with each other?
Adam and Eve are just metaphors I heard.
 
What race were Adam and Eve?

How did so many races of people come into being on various continents?

Did Adam and Eve have some black kids, Some white kids, some aboriginals, some Asian kids and all similar race kids went and settled on various continents?

Nothing adds up in the Adam and Eve story.
 
No doubt about it. They were the first human beings on earth.
 
[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
So you believe/accept that we all are the result of Adam and Eve's children (ie brothers and sisters) sleeping/reproducing with each other?
Yea I don't see why not. A much better explanation than: "Humans evolved from microbes."
 
What race were Adam and Eve?

How did so many races of people come into being on various continents?

Did Adam and Eve have some black kids, Some white kids, some aboriginals, some Asian kids and all similar race kids went and settled on various continents?

Nothing adds up in the Adam and Eve story.
Humans evolved from their ape like ancestors over a period of millions of years.It wasn't just that one day Adam and Eve popped out of nowhere and started mating so as to populate the earth.I can understand illiterates from subcontinent believing in it but supposedly educated ones from Canada and America? Doob maro.
 
Having blind faith is one thing but believing it and providing support for it is a different matter, surprising.
 
Are you suddenly religious?

I don't engage in much religious debate here but I've always tried to be a good Muslim and have been very interested in Islamic history for about 4 years now
 
I have heard more thoughtful Christians who accept evolution describe Adam and Eve as the first sentient humans. This gets them round the problem of increasing genetic weakness through interbreeding from a single pair. The Tree of Knowledge can be thought if as an hallucinogenic fungus which made them self-aware.

Not that I believe a word of it. Not since I was a boy.
 
The writing is on the wall for a lot of these religious legends (Adam & Eve, Noah's Ark, the Battle with the Angel, etc), interesting metaphorical stories that can be studied on their literary merits for sure - but sadly not sharing even an ingot's worth of Truth capital T.
 
Having blind faith is one thing but believing it and providing support for it is a different matter, surprising.

Surprised that a family person like you doesnt have faith. I have turned more faithful after marriage. Anything that science confirms is a validation of divinity of my religion, and anything that goes against science is just a metaphor with deeper meaning. No amount of maths and physics can bring me mental peace..and I need to anchor my turbulent and unstable life around a supreme benevolent force, which gives me strength and courage to face my problems and reassures me that everything will be fine, because HE is there.
 
I don't engage in much religious debate here but I've always tried to be a good Muslim and have been very interested in Islamic history for about 4 years now

So its your faith as well as your belief and you don't find anything illogical about it as a whole?I wouldn't question on your faith but a belief is a different matter.
 
I don't engage in much religious debate here but I've always tried to be a good Muslim and have been very interested in Islamic history for about 4 years now
Given all the evidence about evolution, do you actually believe the Adam and Eve story as stated, or is it the case that you 'force' yourself into 'believing' it otherwise it forms (another?) crack in the lens through which you percieve everything according to what is stated in Islam? ie If sufficient cracks form, and the lens shatters, then you will see the world, and your existence within it, in a completely different light and then it questions your whole belief in Islam?
 
Adam and Eve is a matter of faith. Common sense tend to take a back seat when it comes to blind faith.
 
Not a believer in Darwinian evolution. So yes, I believe Adam and Eve were created by God and had no ape-like/ hominid or other type of ancestors.

I would suggest a reading of Michael Behe's Darwin’s Black Box as a must read for anyone interesting in a theory different than Darwinian Evolution .
 
Not a believer in Darwinian evolution. So yes, I believe Adam and Eve were created by God and had no ape-like/ hominid or other type of ancestors.

I would suggest a reading of Michael Behe's Darwin’s Black Box as a must read for anyone interesting in a theory different than Darwinian Evolution .
I thought you would provide some convincing arguments as to the reason behind you not believing in the evolution theory.Instead you came up with the pseudoscience piece of trash written by Michael Behe.
The lengths some people go to justify their illogical useless beliefs.smh.
 
Then you are ignoring a mountain of evidence from numerous scientific disciplines.

I am with Michael Behe and other proponents (some atheists, some christians) who have debunked whole darwinian evolution by proof from bio-chemistry and mathematics.

This is not the place for arguments but you can read the book I mentioned above to get an idea as to what I believe in.
 
I thought you would provide some convincing arguments as to the reason behind you not believing in the evolution theory.Instead you came up with the pseudoscience piece of trash written by Michael Behe.
The lengths some people go to justify their illogical useless beliefs.smh.

Darwinian Evolution is a pseudoscience piece of trash. I thought you would come up with some convincing arguments :uakmal
 
Not a believer in Darwinian evolution. So yes, I believe Adam and Eve were created by God and had no ape-like/ hominid or other type of ancestors.

I would suggest a reading of Michael Behe's Darwin’s Black Box as a must read for anyone interesting in a theory different than Darwinian Evolution .

What about Dinosaurs? Does that make sense to you? Maybe Darwin's theory was wrong but then how is any religion making sense to you?

No religion can ever make sense because it's not on proof, at least in case of scientists as such they try to be logical and acepting of their theories and shortcomings not religion.
 
How many of you who claim to be firm believers in, and followers of, Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism) then also believe in the story of Adam and Eve (albeit with slight variations), that they were the first human beings, and that all mankind descended from them?

In theory, in order to be a true believer, it is also necessary to believe in Adam and Eve as being the ancesters of all human beings, dead or alive. Which, by implication, also means that Adam and Eve's children married/reproduced with each other.

[....]

According to a Gallup poll (from 2014) over 42% of all Americans (ie over 130 million people), a relatively well educated population, believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago.


What do you mean by " True Believers of Abrahamic religions " ?


Who are the false believers of Abrahamic religions ?


If there is a segregation let me know.
 
Who has set this bench mark that True Believer is someone who believes in Adam & Eve to be first Human Beings on Earth ?

Who will decide this ? God or Humans ?


Where in Holy Quran Allah says that Prophet Adam and his wife were the first two human beings He created ?
 
I don't know. I will never know. Our knowledge of life , creation and why we are on earth is very limited.

Anthropologist have proven that we have the same DNA structure of the old historic man.

My Guess is. God is some supreme higher consciousness who can create anytrhing he wants. He said 'Be' and Adam was created

If evolution is true than why do we have a different DNA from all other animals
 
I don't know. I will never know. Our knowledge of life , creation and why we are on earth is very limited.

Anthropologist have proven that we have the same DNA structure of the old historic man.

My Guess is. God is some supreme higher consciousness who can create anytrhing he wants. He said 'Be' and Adam was created

If evolution is true than why do we have a different DNA from all other animals


Islam believes in Evolution as endorsed by Holy Quran but it does not believe on Darwinism. Islam believes in Intra Species Evolution and rejects Inter Species Evolution.


Currently Scientists, Geneticists, Molecular Biologists, Anthropologists (majority of them) do not agree with us. In future with more and more research going on there is a possibility of current theories and " facts " rejected and getting replaced with new proven theories and facts.


Natural Selection is questionable and bone of contention.


Any Muslim who says Evolution is a Hoax, a lie etc etc defies Quran.
 
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Adam's expulsion from Heaven is a symbolic story.

The forbidden fruit represents sin, the Satan represents our inner dark side which responds to animalistic instincts and is not restrained by morals, i.e. the concept of Id which was developed by Freud.

Eve's insisting that Adam should eat the fruit (commit a sin) represents how easily we can be influenced and cajoled by others into doing things that we may consider wrong without the external influence.

The expulsion from Heaven to Earth represents the end of the sin-free life. Every man is in Heaven before he commits his first person, which is why babies and young children are considered as angels, since they do not have the capacity to commit sin.

It is a complicated philosophical concept, which is easier to understand using symbolism. Much like the description of Heaven with rivers of honey and milk, and the Prophet's journey to Jerusalem on a flying horse/mule hybrid, we have to understand that the audience was 6th CE Arabia. If the Prophet would have been in modern times, the symbolism would have been different and perhaps more complicated.
 
Islam believes in Evolution as endorsed by Holy Quran but it does not believe on Darwinism. Islam believes in Intra Species Evolution and rejects Inter Species Evolution.


Currently Scientists, Geneticists, Molecular Biologists, Anthropologists (majority of them) do not agree with us. In future with more and more research going on there is a possibility of current theories and " facts " rejected and getting replaced with new proven theories and facts.


Natural Selection is questionable and bone of contention.


Any Muslim who says Evolution is a Hoax, a lie etc etc defies Quran.
Does it explicitly say so or is it one of those claims of religious scriptures containing scientific revelations after those explanations were discovered by scientists first and then later hijacked by the religious brigade to justify the credibility of their beloved textbooks?
 
[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
So you believe/accept that we all are the result of Adam and Eve's children (ie brothers and sisters) sleeping/reproducing with each other?

Yes, as far as I know that is the Islamic belief. You have to understand that morals, social norms and religious practices have been different for different times so while Muslims of today cannot participate in incest (at least among direct siblings), the same was not true of Adam's family.

I tend not to think too deeply about these things, however. With all due respect, finding out what Adam looked like, whether evolution has changed us over the years, whether the fruit that he ate was an apple or not, etc does not really affect me in any way, shape or form.

We'll get all the answers eventually. Just have to ensure we're in the right place when we do get said answers.
 
If someone is a 'true believer' of one of the Abrahamic religions then of course they are going to believe it. The title itself is an oxymoron. They're wrong they but they'll never admit or in other words to blind to consider it a possibility.
 
I don't know. I will never know. Our knowledge of life , creation and why we are on earth is very limited.

Anthropologist have proven that we have the same DNA structure of the old historic man.

My Guess is. God is some supreme higher consciousness who can create anytrhing he wants. He said 'Be' and Adam was created

If evolution is true than why do we have a different DNA from all other animals


Our DNA is extremely similar to Chimps and other big apes.
 
I'm completely on board with the theory of evolution. Remember there is overwhelming scientific evidence that there were more than one species of humans before present day homo sapiens over ruled the other species and drove them to extinction because of their superior brain power.
 
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] what do you believe?
I used to be very religious during my youth. However, over the years I've evolved (no pun intended), partly because I am a very logical person and I try and look for the logical reasons/explanations behind everything.

As I hinted at in my earlier post, the numerous cracks eventually shattered the lens through which I previously viewed the world.

Given all the evidence about evolution, do you actually believe the Adam and Eve story as stated, or is it the case that you 'force' yourself into 'believing' it otherwise it forms (another?) crack in the lens through which you percieve everything according to what is stated in Islam? ie If sufficient cracks form, and the lens shatters, then you will see the world, and your existence within it, in a completely different light and then it questions your whole belief in Islam?
 
I've never really thought about it much. It's another one of those questions where you can't get a definitive answer so seems pointless to give it much time. Adam and Eve are nice names though, and you can't go far wrong with a story which involves a tree and an apple.
 
What do you mean by " True Believers of Abrahamic religions " ?


Who are the false believers of Abrahamic religions ?


If there is a segregation let me know.
"True believer" as in, for example, although the vast majority of those born into Muslim households would regard themselves as being 'Muslims', nevertheless, those on one end of the spectrum display attitudes, actions, and live their day-to-day lives as far removed from Islam as any non-believer.

Whilst those on the other end of the spectrum take every aspect of Hadith, and every word of the Quran literally.

In between, there is every flavour imaginable. 'True believers' are those who lean towards the latter end of the spectrum. Similar for other religions.
 
As others have said, it comes down to faith in the end. Our brains are not strong enough to interpret the idea of God and his prophets. So it's not a matter of your brain making a decision. You have to soften your heart to the idea.
 
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Adam's expulsion from Heaven is a symbolic story.

The forbidden fruit represents sin, the Satan represents our inner dark side which responds to animalistic instincts and is not restrained by morals, i.e. the concept of Id which was developed by Freud.

Eve's insisting that Adam should eat the fruit (commit a sin) represents how easily we can be influenced and cajoled by others into doing things that we may consider wrong without the external influence.

The expulsion from Heaven to Earth represents the end of the sin-free life. Every man is in Heaven before he commits his first person, which is why babies and young children are considered as angels, since they do not have the capacity to commit sin.

It is a complicated philosophical concept, which is easier to understand using symbolism. Much like the description of Heaven with rivers of honey and milk, and the Prophet's journey to Jerusalem on a flying horse/mule hybrid, we have to understand that the audience was 6th CE Arabia. If the Prophet would have been in modern times, the symbolism would have been different and perhaps more complicated.

Almost all Muslim academics and scholars throughout the times have concluded these are literal events not symbolic. I assume this is your personal belief not based on any textual evidence?

As for the OP.

Yes there is evolution but Adam and Eve were sent down to Earth as humans and from them the human race expanded. The Earth already existed and so did many species. They may have been sent down around the same time as people believe man evolved into a speaking , upright walking species. We do not believe in a time frame as the Christians do.
 
Almost all Muslim academics and scholars throughout the times have concluded these are literal events not symbolic. I assume this is your personal belief not based on any textual evidence?

Yes it is. And Admittedly, it is always a problem when one looks at these religious miracles/evens through the lens of logic and science. Religion and faith ends when science and logic begin. It is no surprise that new religions stopped forming and religious miracles stopped taking place as soon as science and technology took over the world.

In today's world, you will not see a flying horse-mule hybrid and a staff turning into a snake, or a goat appearing from the sky to intervene a human sacrifice. It is best to leave these things to faith, which cannot be challenged or questioned, which is why it is called faith.
 
Yes it is. And Admittedly, it is always a problem when one looks at these religious miracles/evens through the lens of logic and science. Religion and faith ends when science and logic begin. It is no surprise that new religions stopped forming and religious miracles stopped taking place as soon as science and technology took over the world.

In today's world, you will not see a flying horse-mule hybrid and a staff turning into a snake, or a goat appearing from the sky to intervene a human sacrifice. It is best to leave these things to faith, which cannot be challenged or questioned, which is why it is called faith.

First of all it wasn't a flying horse. Baraq actually leaped far distances.

What is strange, someone who believes in an all powerful creator who has created angels, jinns , the universe but can't send down a leaping beast or exchange a young boy to a goat. Where is the logic is in this?
 
First of all it wasn't a flying horse. Baraq actually leaped far distances.

What is strange, someone who believes in an all powerful creator who has created angels, jinns , the universe but can't send down a leaping beast or exchange a young boy to a goat. Where is the logic is in this?

It did have wings, so was capable of flying. Perhaps it was a short-distance flyer, much like a chicken. Whether it jumped or flew, it was still a winged horse that will not be seen in modern times. There is no logic in religion, and there is no logic in picking and choosing what to believe.

Hence, it is best to not question and ponder over these things too much. I have (unsuccessfully) tried many times to find some logic in religion, but the more I think about, the more I find my faith weakened. However, when I let go of these things and simply embrace everything because it is beyond my understanding and comprehension, I feel that I am in the right place.
 
It did have wings, so was capable of flying. Perhaps it was a short-distance flyer, much like a chicken. Whether it jumped or flew, it was still a winged horse that will not be seen in modern times. There is no logic in religion, and there is no logic in picking and choosing what to believe.

Hence, it is best to not question and ponder over these things too much. I have (unsuccessfully) tried many times to find some logic in religion, but the more I think about, the more I find my faith weakened. However, when I let go of these things and simply embrace everything because it is beyond my understanding and comprehension, I feel that I am in the right place.

We aren't scholars so no point debating the attributes of this creature.

I'm more interested in your argument regarding logic. You say things such as Buraq or God exchanging a boy for a Goat are illogical. But you also believe in Angels, an All Powerful Creator, Jinns, the Prophet(pbuh) receiving revelations direct from God. This list is endless. I assume you believe these to be true but where does this conform to your logic when other stories don't? I would like to know how you make the distinction between what is logical and what is not?
 
We aren't scholars so no point debating the attributes of this creature.

I'm more interested in your argument regarding logic. You say things such as Buraq or God exchanging a boy for a Goat are illogical. But you also believe in Angels, an All Powerful Creator, Jinns, the Prophet(pbuh) receiving revelations direct from God. This list is endless. I assume you believe these to be true but where does this conform to your logic when other stories don't? I would like to know how you make the distinction between what is logical and what is not?

I actually agree with you that a distinction cannot be established; you cannot pick and chose, you are either a believer or a non-believer. It is black and white. However, I emphasized on this already in my previous post:

It did have wings, so was capable of flying. Perhaps it was a short-distance flyer, much like a chicken. Whether it jumped or flew, it was still a winged horse that will not be seen in modern times. There is no logic in religion, and there is no logic in picking and choosing what to believe.

Hence, it is best to not question and ponder over these things too much. I have (unsuccessfully) tried many times to find some logic in religion, but the more I think about, the more I find my faith weakened. However, when I let go of these things and simply embrace everything because it is beyond my understanding and comprehension, I feel that I am in the right place.
 
I actually agree with you that a distinction cannot be established; you cannot pick and chose, you are either a believer or a non-believer. It is black and white. However, I emphasized on this already in my previous post:

[/b]

Sure, then you should accept flying or leaping beasts too or any other miracle. Forget logic, once you know this is established in the religion accept it all or none.
 
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Adam's expulsion from Heaven is a symbolic story.

The forbidden fruit represents sin, the Satan represents our inner dark side which responds to animalistic instincts and is not restrained by morals, i.e. the concept of Id which was developed by Freud.

Eve's insisting that Adam should eat the fruit (commit a sin) represents how easily we can be influenced and cajoled by others into doing things that we may consider wrong without the external influence.

The expulsion from Heaven to Earth represents the end of the sin-free life. Every man is in Heaven before he commits his first person, which is why babies and young children are considered as angels, since they do not have the capacity to commit sin.

It is a complicated philosophical concept, which is easier to understand using symbolism. Much like the description of Heaven with rivers of honey and milk, and the Prophet's journey to Jerusalem on a flying horse/mule hybrid, we have to understand that the audience was 6th CE Arabia. If the Prophet would have been in modern times, the symbolism would have been different and perhaps more complicated.

I am someone who also think there are things in religion which are symbolic. I dont know for sure but heard Iqbal said in his book that religion should be reinterpreted every 50 years according to the needs of that time. It all comes down to interpretation.

regarding heaven which you highlighted in your post. there are famous poets and writers in past who also said things along similar lines.

Nikala ham ko jannat sai fareeb e zindagi dai kr
dia phir shoq e jannat kyun ye hairani nahi jati

and

ham to jantay hain jannat ki haqeeqat laikin
dil behlanay ko Ghalib ye khayal acha hai

and

ye jannat mubarak rahy zahidon ko
mai to ap ka samna chahta hun (Iqbal)

and many more......
 
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Okay a few things, I have noticed this argument (mostly from ignorance) being used countless times against Evolution, both here and elsewhere. And it goes like this, evolution is just a theory, we are not sure and can never be sure. And hence, the whole thing is dismissed.

There are facts, that state something phenomenon occurring in nature, data if you will. And then there are theories to explain those facts, why does a said thing happen. A theory will never ever become a fact, no matter how much evidence you bring forth, no matter how many times you test its predictions. It will become a better theory, but it will remain that, a theory. In science a well tested theory is as good as it get, it is in-fact the real deal. Facts or laws are not interesting in comparison.


Gravity is a fact, things fall down. Newton's theory and now Einstein's General Relativity are attempts to understand why is that so. Einetien came and improved upon Newton's ideas, but while he was doing so, the apples suddenly didn't suspend themselves in mid air.

Also that didn't make Newton's ideas obsolete or wrong .They are so precise, that the rockets we use today, still use those results. You can reduce Einstein's field equations to Newton's, the latter are contained with into the framework of GR.

Similarly Evolution is both a theory and a fact. The fact of Evolution is not going to go anywhere, even if we develop a better understanding of how Evolution happened. Infact any new theory that tries to describe Evolution (always a possibility) will have most of the aspects of Natural selection in it, such is the evidence in support of it.

It is fact that organism change over time that is to say they evolve (phenotypes and genotypes of populations of organisms change over time) and it is still hapenning. It is fact there was only single cellular life existed on Earth 2 billion years ago which then evolved into multicellular life. There there we no Mammals or Birds 300 million years ago, these birds came from non-birds and us humans from creatures that weren't human.

Common decent occurs and is an observable fact; you, me and the chimps have a common ancestor. It is a fact that speciation can and does occur. A single species branch of into two distinct new ones over time (See Human chromosome 2, if are looking for evidence).

All this is directly based on genetics, fossils, embryology and is supported by geophysics, chemistry, and even astrophysics. Biological evolution is keystone is the advancements in medicine and health. To deny this is like denying the earth moves around the sun.

Now how did evolution occur? The explantation of the fact of evolution is a theory. Darwinian natural selection is one of many that try to describe evolution. But it is the one that has been tested countless times, gone through limitless criticism and has withstood them all. It is the most successful theory we have by far. To say it is wrong, it akin to saying General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics is wrong, while reaping there benefits each day.

So no, Adam and Eve were not the first Homo Sapiens, in-fact there wasn't a first Homo Sapien. There are no ifs and buts here, it is as established a scientific fact as any.
 
I am someone who also think there are things in religion which are symbolic. I dont know for sure but heard Iqbal said in his book that religion should be reinterpreted every 50 years according to the needs of that time. It all comes down to interpretation.

regarding heaven which you highlighted in your post. there are famous poets and writers in past who also said things along similar lines.

Nikal ham ko jannat sai fareeb e zindagi dai kr
dia phir shoq e jannat kyun ye hairani nahi jati

and

ham to jantay hain jannat ki haqeeqat laikin
dil behlanay ko Ghalib ye khayal acha hai

and

ye jannat mubarak rahy zahidon ko
mai to ap ka samna chahta hun (Iqbal)

and many more......

This reminded me of a discussion that I was having with a religious type who kept harping that all and every type of interest is haram and people using it are hell-bound (he was oblivious to the fact that he also pays interest on his credit cards). I tried to explain to the dim-wit the concept of devaluation that if I lend someone 100 dollars today and he returns to me the same 100 dollars 25 years from now then the actual value of those 100 dollars would probably be 50 dollars because of devaluation and if interest is not imposed that matches the inflation rate then the money I am returned is significantly lesser than the amount I lent.

Also we need to understand that at the time when interest was declared haram there was no concept of paper currency. The currency at the time was bags of grain or sheep or gold etc. A sheep remains a sheep whether today or 25 years later.
 
Yes Adam and eve were Human beings, there is noting illogical about this Allah can create the universe so creating man in heaven and placing them on earth is nothing no big deal.
 
This reminded me of a discussion that I was having with a religious type who kept harping that all and every type of interest is haram and people using it are hell-bound (he was oblivious to the fact that he also pays interest on his credit cards). I tried to explain to the dim-wit the concept of devaluation that if I lend someone 100 dollars today and he returns to me the same 100 dollars 25 years from now then the actual value of those 100 dollars would probably be 50 dollars because of devaluation and if interest is not imposed that matches the inflation rate then the money I am returned is significantly lesser than the amount I lent.

Also we need to understand that at the time when interest was declared haram there was no concept of paper currency. The currency at the time was bags of grain or sheep or gold etc. A sheep remains a sheep whether today or 25 years later.

So is Interest Halal than?
 
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that Adam's expulsion from Heaven is a symbolic story.

The forbidden fruit represents sin, the Satan represents our inner dark side which responds to animalistic instincts and is not restrained by morals, i.e. the concept of Id which was developed by Freud.

Eve's insisting that Adam should eat the fruit (commit a sin) represents how easily we can be influenced and cajoled by others into doing things that we may consider wrong without the external influence.

The expulsion from Heaven to Earth represents the end of the sin-free life. Every man is in Heaven before he commits his first person, which is why babies and young children are considered as angels, since they do not have the capacity to commit sin.

It is a complicated philosophical concept, which is easier to understand using symbolism. Much like the description of Heaven with rivers of honey and milk, and the Prophet's journey to Jerusalem on a flying horse/mule hybrid, we have to understand that the audience was 6th CE Arabia. If the Prophet would have been in modern times, the symbolism would have been different and perhaps more complicated.


Few pertinent questions.


1. Are these your own Interpretations ?

2. Did you agree with these Interpretations you read, listened to or watched someone state ?
 
This reminded me of a discussion that I was having with a religious type who kept harping that all and every type of interest is haram and people using it are hell-bound (he was oblivious to the fact that he also pays interest on his credit cards). I tried to explain to the dim-wit the concept of devaluation that if I lend someone 100 dollars today and he returns to me the same 100 dollars 25 years from now then the actual value of those 100 dollars would probably be 50 dollars because of devaluation and if interest is not imposed that matches the inflation rate then the money I am returned is significantly lesser than the amount I lent.

Also we need to understand that at the time when interest was declared haram there was no concept of paper currency. The currency at the time was bags of grain or sheep or gold etc. A sheep remains a sheep whether today or 25 years later.


You live in Canada. If there is someone who is from working class, financially middle class and He can't afford a Car and a House on Cash than should he save money for 10 years to buy a Car or 50 years to buy a House ? Since He has to pay Interest otherwise ?

What is your belief and opinion ?


I don’t agree with him calling that " Interest ". For me Gold Price should be the Barrometer or Bag of Grains.


In 1980's a General did 2 Crore worth Corruption. In 2015 He did plea bargain with NAB and paid that Sum. Geberal sahib is still alive and is 90-92. Yeh tou berha acha soda hai.
 
What race were Adam and Eve?

How did so many races of people come into being on various continents?

Did Adam and Eve have some black kids, Some white kids, some aboriginals, some Asian kids and all similar race kids went and settled on various continents?

Nothing adds up in the Adam and Eve story.

We believe Allah created Adam from different types of soil hence different colours.
 
Few pertinent questions.


1. Are these your own Interpretations ?

2. Did you agree with these Interpretations you read, listened to or watched someone state ?

Yes these are my own interpretations. However, as I stated in my conversation with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION], it is not a topic that I am comfortable with, because there is a lot of conflict and confusion in my mind. Faith after all, is blind. You can feel it and sense it, but you cannot prove. I do believe that God exists and Islam is the true religion, and I have experienced thing and have had my prayers answered that have reinforced my faith, but obviously, I cannot prove it to anyone.

Nonetheless, if I start deducing things logically, then I feel that my faith is weakening. This is why I almost became a borderline Atheist around 2006-2008 before certain things/events brought me back into religion, and I don't want to tread onto that path anymore. At the end of the day, whether the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Heaven was symbolic/metaphorical/literal is insignificant.
 
Yes these are my own interpretations. However, as I stated in my conversation with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION], it is not a topic that I am comfortable with, because there is a lot of conflict and confusion in my mind. Faith after all, is blind. You can feel it and sense it, but you cannot prove. I do believe that God exists and Islam is the true religion, and I have experienced thing and have had my prayers answered that have reinforced my faith, but obviously, I cannot prove it to anyone.

Nonetheless, if I start deducing things logically, then I feel that my faith is weakening. This is why I almost became a borderline Atheist around 2006-2008 before certain things/events brought me back into religion, and I don't want to tread onto that path anymore. At the end of the day, whether the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Heaven was symbolic/metaphorical/literal is insignificant.

Fear of the unknown was it?
 
I am someone who also think there are things in religion which are symbolic. I dont know for sure but heard Iqbal said in his book that religion should be reinterpreted every 50 years according to the needs of that time. It all comes down to interpretation.

regarding heaven which you highlighted in your post. there are famous poets and writers in past who also said things along similar lines.

Nikala ham ko jannat sai fareeb e zindagi dai kr
dia phir shoq e jannat kyun ye hairani nahi jati

and

ham to jantay hain jannat ki haqeeqat laikin
dil behlanay ko Ghalib ye khayal acha hai

and

ye jannat mubarak rahy zahidon ko
mai to ap ka samna chahta hun (Iqbal)

and many more......

What distinguished Iqbal from a lot of other early Muslim poets was not afraid to ask bold questions. He made people realize that it was possible to question things without becoming a disbeliever, but unfortunately, it is a very fine line.

What is important is the message/essence, and not the direct examples. Unfortunately this is something that most of us are not prepared to consider. Let's take the description of Heaven. In 6 CE Arabia, how else were you going to describe Heaven to those people, if not entice them with rivers of milk and honey? If the Quran would have arrived in today's world and Islam would have been complete in the year 2015 instead of the year 632, do you really think we would still have had those examples/descriptions of Heaven?
 
Fear of the unknown was it?

The fear is always the foundation of faith, but the reason why I was drawn to religion again was because certain things happened which I felt were not possible without divine intervention, and I saw my prayers answered.
 
Okay a few things, I have noticed this argument (mostly from ignorance) being used countless times against Evolution, both here and elsewhere. And it goes like this, evolution is just a theory, we are not sure and can never be sure. And hence, the whole thing is dismissed.

There are facts, that state something phenomenon occurring in nature, data if you will. And then there are theories to explain those facts, why does a said thing happen. A theory will never ever become a fact, no matter how much evidence you bring forth, no matter how many times you test its predictions. It will become a better theory, but it will remain that, a theory. In science a well tested theory is as good as it get, it is in-fact the real deal. Facts or laws are not interesting in comparison.


Gravity is a fact, things fall down. Newton's theory and now Einstein's General Relativity are attempts to understand why is that so. Einetien came and improved upon Newton's ideas, but while he was doing so, the apples suddenly didn't suspend themselves in mid air.

Also that didn't make Newton's ideas obsolete or wrong .They are so precise, that the rockets we use today, still use those results. You can reduce Einstein's field equations to Newton's, the latter are contained with into the framework of GR.

Similarly Evolution is both a theory and a fact. The fact of Evolution is not going to go anywhere, even if we develop a better understanding of how Evolution happened. Infact any new theory that tries to describe Evolution (always a possibility) will have most of the aspects of Natural selection in it, such is the evidence in support of it.

It is fact that organism change over time that is to say they evolve (phenotypes and genotypes of populations of organisms change over time) and it is still hapenning. It is fact there was only single cellular life existed on Earth 2 billion years ago which then evolved into multicellular life. There there we no Mammals or Birds 300 million years ago, these birds came from non-birds and us humans from creatures that weren't human.

Common decent occurs and is an observable fact; you, me and the chimps have a common ancestor. It is a fact that speciation can and does occur. A single species branch of into two distinct new ones over time (See Human chromosome 2, if are looking for evidence).

All this is directly based on genetics, fossils, embryology and is supported by geophysics, chemistry, and even astrophysics. Biological evolution is keystone is the advancements in medicine and health. To deny this is like denying the earth moves around the sun.

Now how did evolution occur? The explantation of the fact of evolution is a theory. Darwinian natural selection is one of many that try to describe evolution. But it is the one that has been tested countless times, gone through limitless criticism and has withstood them all. It is the most successful theory we have by far. To say it is wrong, it akin to saying General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics is wrong, while reaping there benefits each day.

So no, Adam and Eve were not the first Homo Sapiens, in-fact there wasn't a first Homo Sapien. There are no ifs and buts here, it is as established a scientific fact as any.

Brilliant post.

The problem is that most of these Mullahs and online Jihadis bit more than they can chew, i.e. their knowledge of science is very, very limited to debate complex concepts like evolution. It is like a person trying to solve Fermat's Last Theorem when he cannot even solve basic quadratic equations.
 
Okay a few things, I have noticed this argument (mostly from ignorance) being used countless times against Evolution, both here and elsewhere. And it goes like this, evolution is just a theory, we are not sure and can never be sure. And hence, the whole thing is dismissed.

There are facts, that state something phenomenon occurring in nature, data if you will. And then there are theories to explain those facts, why does a said thing happen. A theory will never ever become a fact, no matter how much evidence you bring forth, no matter how many times you test its predictions. It will become a better theory, but it will remain that, a theory. In science a well tested theory is as good as it get, it is in-fact the real deal. Facts or laws are not interesting in comparison.


Gravity is a fact, things fall down. Newton's theory and now Einstein's General Relativity are attempts to understand why is that so. Einetien came and improved upon Newton's ideas, but while he was doing so, the apples suddenly didn't suspend themselves in mid air.

Also that didn't make Newton's ideas obsolete or wrong .They are so precise, that the rockets we use today, still use those results. You can reduce Einstein's field equations to Newton's, the latter are contained with into the framework of GR.

Similarly Evolution is both a theory and a fact. The fact of Evolution is not going to go anywhere, even if we develop a better understanding of how Evolution happened. Infact any new theory that tries to describe Evolution (always a possibility) will have most of the aspects of Natural selection in it, such is the evidence in support of it.

It is fact that organism change over time that is to say they evolve (phenotypes and genotypes of populations of organisms change over time) and it is still hapenning. It is fact there was only single cellular life existed on Earth 2 billion years ago which then evolved into multicellular life. There there we no Mammals or Birds 300 million years ago, these birds came from non-birds and us humans from creatures that weren't human.

Common decent occurs and is an observable fact; you, me and the chimps have a common ancestor. It is a fact that speciation can and does occur. A single species branch of into two distinct new ones over time (See Human chromosome 2, if are looking for evidence).

All this is directly based on genetics, fossils, embryology and is supported by geophysics, chemistry, and even astrophysics. Biological evolution is keystone is the advancements in medicine and health. To deny this is like denying the earth moves around the sun.

Now how did evolution occur? The explantation of the fact of evolution is a theory. Darwinian natural selection is one of many that try to describe evolution. But it is the one that has been tested countless times, gone through limitless criticism and has withstood them all. It is the most successful theory we have by far. To say it is wrong, it akin to saying General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics is wrong, while reaping there benefits each day.

So no, Adam and Eve were not the first Homo Sapiens, in-fact there wasn't a first Homo Sapien. There are no ifs and buts here, it is as established a scientific fact as any.

Good post. I just have one question. Assuming you are a fully practising Muslim, how do you reconcile evolution with your belief in Islam.
 
The fear is always the foundation of faith, but the reason why I was drawn to religion again was because certain things happened which I felt were not possible without divine intervention, and I saw my prayers answered.

So many such actions actually occur within a span of human life,which even though miraculous in nature cannot be attributed to divine but chance as best,anyhow as you have already said its a matter of faith nothing to prove.
But when you become certain that it "wasn't" possible then it becomes your belief ,I'm glad you are able to get the two crossed over at times and still survive without questioning.
 
Brilliant post.

The problem is that most of these Mullahs and online Jihadis bit more than they can chew, i.e. their knowledge of science is very, very limited to debate complex concepts like evolution. It is like a person trying to solve Fermat's Last Theorem when he cannot even solve basic quadratic equations.


So Mullah's are not representative of Islam ?

They are not Specialists of Islam ?

So who is it ? To whom One should look out for ?
 
Yes these are my own interpretations. However, as I stated in my conversation with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION], it is not a topic that I am comfortable with, because there is a lot of conflict and confusion in my mind. Faith after all, is blind. You can feel it and sense it, but you cannot prove. I do believe that God exists and Islam is the true religion, and I have experienced thing and have had my prayers answered that have reinforced my faith, but obviously, I cannot prove it to anyone.

Nonetheless, if I start deducing things logically, then I feel that my faith is weakening. This is why I almost became a borderline Atheist around 2006-2008 before certain things/events brought me back into religion, and I don't want to tread onto that path anymore. At the end of the day, whether the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Heaven was symbolic/metaphorical/literal is insignificant.


Actually some faiths do stand on rationality & logic. They do claim atleast to be rational and logical. You call them Impostor and there followers as followers of Imposters.


More than 120 years ago these things have been explained in almost the same way as you have described. So what you said really struck me and I wanted to know whether Ghamdi sahib(who picks 80 % stuff) told you or its your own Interpretation ?


Remember Pakistan's most highly ranked Economist recognised Worldwide ? The One IK names and retracted his words later ? 10 years ago He the Pakistani American almost fell in the whole of Atheism after doing his Postgrad and Doctoral studies at MIT. Than in search of Answers to Questions he resorted to Internet and found out some books of people He absolutely hated in college days back home and didn't even want to answer their Assalamoalaikum. In Search of rationality and logic He came across books like

" The Philosophy & Teachings of Islam "

" Islam's Response to Contemporary Issues "

" Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth "


And from being Constitutional Muslim and a hater He became a Constitutional Non Muslim.


Today He is not just a Globally recognised Economist but an Embassador of Peace, a very active Practicing Muslim in USA.


Since USA is not Pakistan with no religious freedom for few hence You might come across International Peace Conferences, I am a Muslim Ask me anything, True Islam, Muslims for Peace campaigns in Open in your Respective City where you will be hearing similar stuff.


No rational mind is willing to entertain fairytales which defy wisdom, fairytales which defy laws of nature, laws of science, laws of physics, laws of gravity etc to penpicture spectacular mindbogling fiction.
 
What race were Adam and Eve?

How did so many races of people come into being on various continents?

Did Adam and Eve have some black kids, Some white kids, some aboriginals, some Asian kids and all similar race kids went and settled on various continents?

Nothing adds up in the Adam and Eve story.


Listen. Sorry Read/See.


How can a Single Man give birth to so many races ?


If you are a rejectionist of science in all ways only than you can believe in this.


As I said Holy Quran at No Place says that Prophet Adam AS and his Wife Eve AS were the first two Homosapiens of Plannet Earth.


He AS was the first Global Leader, Divine Leader, Prophet of the Modern Human Lineage.


Holy Quran calls him AS as Successor and Successor is someone who succeeds.


Virat Kohli is the Succesor to Mahendra Dhoni so can you say Virat is first ever Indian Captain ? No. There were Captains before him.


There have been different cycles of Mankind. This is One Cycle of which we are the lineages. Allah in Quran clearly says that He raised some Nations while other Nations completely Perished and were substituted/replaced by New Ones. What we now see and know off from all our religious literatures of all religions is this Cycle of Mankind only and only this is relevant to Us ie 2000-5000 years old Man but even before that there was mankind which was evolving step by step.
 
It's interesting to read such a myriad of spin and convoluted explanations being constructed by intelligent individuals all trying to reconcile the question posed in the OP with their own rational thought processes. Religion eh!
 
It's interesting to read such a myriad of spin and convoluted explanations being constructed by intelligent individuals all trying to reconcile the question posed in the OP with their own rational thought processes. Religion eh!


72/73 Sects so its Natural.


Still few opinions comparatively.
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

This is my own interpretation, and I believe that every individual of sound mind should be do enough study so that he is capable of making his own judgment to a certain extent. However, the conflict arises when you have to map your thoughts and beliefs with the beliefs of esteemed scholars. They have devoted their lives into studying and researching Islam, so how can you overrule them? I have, and still find myself engrossed in this conflict. There are many, many things that don't make sense to me, and I try to interpret them according to my beliefs. However, at the same time, I also feel that I am wrong because I am not in a position to make sense of it.

Ghamidi is one theologist whose views I agree with almost all the time. His interpretations make a lot of sense to me and there is no doubt that he has not only reinforced but also influenced my beliefs on certain topics.

Now as far as logic and faith is concerned, my view is that they are polar opposites - logic will never comply with faith and vice versa. Ultimately, people who find themselves in torn between logic and faith have to make a compromise, and simply accept certain things and believe in them even when it makes no sense. The reason why I believe that logic and religion cannot work together is because the foundation of religion, i.e. the existence of God not logical, so how can we expect anything related to religion to comply with logic? You brought up a good example of Atif Mian, but he also had to make a compromise at some point: he accepted the illogical existence of God and tried to make sense of what is there, just like any atheist/borderline atheist who starts to believe in religion. Hence, they are left with no choice but to compromise on logic to accept religion in the first place.
 
Traditional Islamic cosmology says that the world is divined into five stages or divine presence, from the material to the spiritual, and everything is inter-connected, the material being a symbolic of the spiritual ; everything is an allegory, and in the same way, Adam and Eve can be both "humans" as well as metaphysical symbols, Adam being the Spirit-Logos and Eve being the Universal Soul ; with this we're going into complex intellectual sublimities and it's better to read the traditional shuyukh of Islam on the subject.

It's also a symptom of the "modern" world to ask the most useless questions, which is an extrapolation, in matters of theology, of what the sciences of nature have done (biology, chemistry, ...). When you're thirsty you don't care if water is H2O ; you try to find some. In the same way, the Qur'an has been revealed into a desert to a desert-dwelling people in order to recreate the conditions of postmodernity : postmodernity creates "deserts" (no sense of ego, of truth, of morality, ...) and thus the Qur'an give metaphysical symbolic to help transcend such narrow path - it's not here to teach you if Adam was six feet tall or whatever. That's the same literalism of all "modernists" (from religious literalists to New Atheists).
 
Traditional Islamic cosmology says that the world is divined into five stages or divine presence, from the material to the spiritual, and everything is inter-connected, the material being a symbolic of the spiritual ; everything is an allegory, and in the same way, Adam and Eve can be both "humans" as well as metaphysical symbols, Adam being the Spirit-Logos and Eve being the Universal Soul ; with this we're going into complex intellectual sublimities and it's better to read the traditional shuyukh of Islam on the subject.

It's also a symptom of the "modern" world to ask the most useless questions, which is an extrapolation, in matters of theology, of what the sciences of nature have done (biology, chemistry, ...). When you're thirsty you don't care if water is H2O ; you try to find some. In the same way, the Qur'an has been revealed into a desert to a desert-dwelling people in order to recreate the conditions of postmodernity : postmodernity creates "deserts" (no sense of ego, of truth, of morality, ...) and thus the Qur'an give metaphysical symbolic to help transcend such narrow path - it's not here to teach you if Adam was six feet tall or whatever. That's the same literalism of all "modernists" (from religious literalists to New Atheists).

Basically mambo jumbo stuff.

Sometimes literal meaning some times metaphorical. Typical.

So what is it? Are Adam and Eve real or just a story made up to explain to the 6th century Bedouins the concept of human origins?
 
[MENTION=137148]Rayyman[/MENTION] [MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
So you believe/accept that we all are the result of Adam and Eve's children (ie brothers and sisters) sleeping/reproducing with each other?

According to Shia belief, the fact that they slept with each other is a lie. We believe that Allah sent angels for Habeel and Kabeel to reproduce with. The angels are also believed to be the reasons for the beauty on Earth.
 
So Mullah's are not representative of Islam ?

They are not Specialists of Islam ?

So who is it ? To whom One should look out for ?

Muslims, especially Pakistani Muslims of whatever sect amuse me. Why is there a need to look elsewhere when all that you need is there already in the shape of the Quran. The best source after the Quran is the human brain itself. Our conscience itself helps us find the distinction between good and bad.
 
Why cant we have our own interpretation? Why do we always have to follow someone?
I respect anyone and everyone with any belief unless they are not hurting me & others and arent spreading hate.
 
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