Trump administration rescinds rule on international students [Post #85]

[MenInG]

(Reuters) - When the phone rang Tuesday morning, Raul Romero had barely slept.

The 21-year-old Venezuelan, on a scholarship at Ohio’s Kenyon College, had spent hours pondering his options after U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement announced Monday that international students taking classes fully online for the fall semester would have to transfer to a school with in-person classes or leave the country.

A college employee called Romero to say he would not be immediately affected, but warned that a local outbreak of COVID-19 could force the school to suspend in-person classes during the year. If that happened, he may need to go home.

Romero is one of hundreds of thousands of international students in the United States on F-1 and M-1 visas faced with the prospect of having to leave the country mid-pandemic if their schools go fully online.

For some students, remote learning could mean attending classes in the middle of the night, dealing with spotty or no internet access, losing funding contingent on teaching, or having to stop participating in research. Some are considering taking time off or leaving their programs entirely.

Reuters spoke with a dozen students who described feeling devastated and confused by the Trump administration’s announcement.

In a Venezuela beset by a deep economic crisis amid political strife, Romero said his mother and brother are living off their savings, sometimes struggle to find food and don’t have reliable internet at home.

“To think about myself going back to that conflict, while continuing my classes in a completely unequal playing field with my classmates,” he said. “I don’t think it’s possible.”

And that’s if he could even get there. There are currently no flights between the United States and Venezuela.

At schools that have already announced the decision to conduct classes fully online, students were grappling with the announcement’s implications for their personal and professional lives. Blindsided universities scrambled to help them navigate the upheaval.

Lewis Picard, 24, an Australian second-year doctoral student in experimental physics at Harvard University, has been talking nonstop with his partner about the decision. They are on F-1 visas at different schools.

Harvard said Monday it plans to conduct courses online next year. After the ICE announcement, the university’s president, Larry Bacow, said Harvard was “deeply concerned” that it left international students “few options.”

Having to leave “would completely put a roadblock in my research,” Picard said. “There’s essentially no way that the work I am doing can be done remotely. We’ve already had this big pause on it with the pandemic, and we’ve just been able to start going back to lab.”

It could also mean he and his partner would be separated. “The worst-case scenario plan is we’d both have to go to our home countries,” he said.

Aparna Gopalan, 25, a fourth-year anthropology PhD student at Harvard originally from India, said ICE’s suggestion that students transfer to in-person universities is not realistic just weeks before classes begin.

“That betrays a complete lack of understanding of how academia works,” she said. “You can’t transfer in July. That’s not what happens.”

Raul Romero holds a Venezuelan flag as he poses for a photo at Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio, U.S. in this handout photo taken February 2, 2020. Picture taken February 2, 2020. Raul Romero/Handout via REUTERS
Others were considering leaving their programs entirely if they cannot study in the United States, and taking their tuition dollars with them. International students often pay full freight, helping universities to fund scholarships, and injected nearly $45 billion into the U.S. economy in 2018.

“It doesn’t make much sense to me to pay for an American education, if you’re not really receiving an American education,” said Olufemi Olurin, 25, of the Bahamas, who is earning an MBA at Eastern Kentucky University and wants to pursue a career in healthcare management.

“It’s kind of heartbreaking,” she said. “I’ve been building my life here. As an immigrant, even if you are as law-abiding as it gets, you still are always waiting for the rug to be pulled out from under you.”

Benjamin Bing, 22, from China, who was planning to study computer science at Carnegie Mellon in the fall, said he no longer feels welcome in the United States. He and his friends are exploring the possibility of finishing their studies in Europe.

“I feel like it’s kicking out everyone,” he said, of the United States. “We actually paid tuition to study here and we did not do anything wrong.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-sent-home-after-us-visa-rule-idUSKBN2491F4

 

[MenInG]

Harvard and MIT sue to overturn order banning international students

According to reports in both Harvard Magazine and Harvard Crimson, Harvard and MIT are to sue the Trump Administration to overturn the ruling that overseas students whose courses are to be delivered wholly online cannot come into the US.

The Harvard Crimson quotes university president Lawrence S. Bacow saying in an email that “The order came down without notice—its cruelty surpassed only by its recklessness. We believe that the ICE order is bad public policy, and we believe that it is illegal.”

 

[Firebat]

India raises concerns with U.S. over new rules for foreign students

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India has conveyed its concerns to the United States about a new immigration order that could force a large number of Indian students to return home, the foreign ministry said on Thursday.

U.S. President Donald Trump’s administration issued a new rule this week that would bar foreign students from remaining in the United States if their universities are not holding in-person classes during the upcoming fall semester because of coronavirus.

“We have urged the U.S. side that we need to keep in mind the role that educational exchanges and people to people relations have played in the development of our relations,” Anurag Srivastava, spokesman at India’s foreign ministry told a news conference.

 

[Firebat]

Changes to student visa rules temporary, US says after India raises matter

NEW DELHI: The US on Tuesday said the modifications to student visa rules were temporary and aimed at ensuring greater flexibility for non-immigrant students to continue their studies while allowing for proper social distancing on campuses due to the novel coronavirus infections.

The US state department said in a statement it acknowledged the US had long been the destination of choice for international students.

“The Department of Homeland Security has announced its plan for temporary modifications to F-1 and M-1 non-immigrant visa requirements for the fall 2020 semester. This will allow a mixture of both in-person and some online coursework to meet the requirements for nonimmigrant student status. This temporary accommodation provides greater flexibility for nonimmigrant students to continue their education in the United States, while also allowing for proper social distancing on open and operating campuses across America," the statement said.

International students will still have to obtain the appropriate visa and may still be subject to other visa processing or travel restrictions due to covid-19. Students should check with the local US embassy or consulate for information specific to their country, the statement said.

The state department statement comes after India raised the matter during foreign office consultations between India and the US on Tuesday. The online meeting took place between Foreign Secretary Harsh Vardhan Shringla and US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs David Hale. During the meeting, the US side took note of Indian concerns on the matter. The US also conveyed that it will keep the best interests of the students in mind, Mint has learnt.

Detailed implementation guidelines on the visa rule changes are yet to be publicly notified but it has triggered widespread concern among parents and their wards studying in the US. India and China comprise a lion’s share of foreign students in the US. While US is home to some 202,000 Indian students, there are almost 369,000 Chinese students pursuing education in the US institutions, according to US government data.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india...after-india-raises-matter-11594180594637.html

 

[Energy]

This isn't good for International students who (or their parents) will get their pockets hit hard after paying through visa, travel, accommodation, tuition fee, and other expenses.

 

[MenInG]

New York, United States - The Trump administration's abrupt changes to foreign student visa rules have upended the plans of more than a million international students currently enrolled in institutions across the United States, with many fearing for their future.

The US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) on Monday announced that it would strip the visa of foreign students whose entire courses have moved online due to the coronavirus pandemic, with critics calling the move "xenophobic" and part of President Donald Trump's hardline immigration policy.

The directive by ICE's Student and Exchange Visitor Program is likely to hit hundreds of thousands of students, particularly from Asian countries, hard, as they will have to leave the US or face deportation.

Many of them might face the prospect of distance learning from the other side of the world, where time zones, unreliable internet connections, and internet bans would make completing their degree programmes difficult - if not impossible.

According to research conducted by ICE, nearly 80 percent of all international students in the US are from Asia, with China and India accounting for nearly half of them.

This order is basically pushing students to choose between disease and deportation.
IFAT GAZIA, A PHD STUDENT FROM INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR

Students currently enrolled in programmes taught entirely online must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status.

Universities in the US were forced to shift classes online in mid-March in the wake of the coronavirus crisis. The country is the hardest hit by the pandemic with more than three million confirmed cases and 135,000 deaths.

'Xenophobic' and 'anti-immigration'
Ifat Gazia, a PhD student from Indian-administered Kashmir, said: "If ICE sends me and other Kashmiri students back, we would be left with no remote learning option. I will have to take a leave from my university and sit back home until this order is revoked."

India imposed one of the longest internet blockades in Kashmir in August last year when the disputed Muslim-majority regionwas stripped of its special status. The internet blockade was lifted in January this year, but mobile internet, which many people there rely on, has been limited to 2G speeds.

If I go back and lose my F-1 [student] visa then I will have to restart my career in India with a huge debt.
A STUDENT FROM INDIA, WHO WISHED TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS

Calling the ICE order "xenophobic" and "anti-immigration", Gazia said the order will have a detrimental effect on international students in the US. "This order is basically pushing students to choose between disease and deportation," Gazia, from the University of Massachusetts Amherst, said.

A Chinese student currently studying at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) said attending online classes will be difficult if he goes back to his home country. Many websites, including Google and Facebook, that US universities use to communicate with students, are blocked in China.

To get around the issue, he will have to use a virtual private network (VPN) to access search engines such as Google and other websites. "Using a VPN slows the internet speed, and sometimes the connection breaks down," he told Al Jazeera wishing not to be named.

The ICE order has also taken away the flexibility that international students had while navigating academic life amid the pandemic. Veeraj Jindal, a student at Dartmouth College, said, he may have to drop this semester.

"There is so much uncertainty about what to do. Unless commercial flights start from India to US, I may not be able to go back to join college on time," the 19-year-old said.

Jindal said the policy is forcing him to choose between facing a health risk and losing his visa. "Forcing students to go back on campus will create health implications," Jindal said over the phone from India's capital, New Delhi.

Another Indian student pursuing a law degree at a university in New York, who also did not wish to be named, said the order has upended his career plans, and could leave him with unpaid debts of more than $150,000.

He fears he will have to let go of a job offer that he has received. "If I go back and lose my F-1 [student] visa then I will have to restart my career in India with a huge debt," he added.

Universities react

Two top American universities - Harvard and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) - on Wednesday filed a lawsuit in court, seeking to revoke the order by the Trump administration.

"We will pursue this case vigorously so that our international students - and international students at institutions across the country - can continue their studies without the threat of deportation," Harvard's president Lawrence S Bacow said in a statement.

This is to strong-arm universities and colleges to buy into that narrative which the Trump administration is trying to sell that everything is fine.
SHARVARI (SHEV) DALAL-DHEINI, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT RELATIONS AT THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION

"We believe that the ICE order is bad public policy, and we believe that it is illegal," he added.

Some universities, including, Princeton University, Stanford University, California Institute of Technology (Caltech), and Cornell University have announced their support for the lawsuit by Harvard and MIT.

Brown University, where international students account for about 18 percent of the total student population, issued a statement on Wednesday describing the new immigration order as "nothing short of cruel" and "a direct threat to public health".

International students contributed $45bn to the US economy during 2018, the Institute of International Education report said, citing the US Department of Commerce, according to a report by Reuters news agency.

Harvard on Wednesday filed a lawsuit in court, seeking to revoke the order by the Trump administration [Gunther/EPA]
NAFSA, a global education advocacy group, said the foreign students supported nearly 460,000 jobs in the US in the 2018-19 academic year.

Harvard plans to conduct all course instructions for the 2020-21 academic year online, but many other universities are planning to adopt a hybrid model, which will include online classes and some in-person instruction, in the wake of the visa changes.

During the 2019 fall semester, UC Berkeley admitted 6,833 international students, including 2,763 from China, and 709 from India. Berkeley will be implementing a hybrid model for the fall 2020 semester.

Ivor Emmanuel, director, Berkeley International Office, said campus leadership examining their course instruction plans for the fall 2020 semester "with an eye towards making sure that a sufficient level of in-person classes are made available for students".

Columbia University, situated in the leafy Upper West Side district of Manhattan, New York, has announced that classes will begin on September 8, with a three-term schedule and hybrid teaching.

Columbia University's president Lee C Bollinger said in a statement, "We must endeavor to configure hybrid classes providing in-person and remote learning options that alleviate the negative effect of these new regulations on Columbia students."

The US government on Wednesday defended the new ICE orders. "You don't get a visa for taking online classes from, let's say, the University of Phoenix, so why would you if you were just taking online classes generally?" White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany said during a press briefing.

But critics and leaders from the opposition Democratic Party have slammed Trump for the student visa directive.

We believe that the ICE order is bad public policy, and we believe that it is illegal."

"The cruelty of this White House knows no bounds. Foreign students are being threatened with a choice: risk your life going to class in-person or get deported," said Senator Bernie Sanders. "We must stand up to Trump's bigotry. We must keep all our students safe."


Meanwhile, New Delhi has expressed its concerns to Washington about the change in students visa that could affect a large number of Indian students.

"We have urged the US side that we need to keep in mind the role that educational exchanges and people to people relations have played in the development of our relations," Anurag Srivastava, spokesman at India's foreign ministry told a news conference.

The curb on students' visa is being seen by some experts as an effort by the Trump administration to pressure US educational institutions to open their gates as opposed to the cautious approach to their resuming classes.

Sharvari (Shev) Dalal-Dheini, director of government relations at the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), said the order helps advance the story that Trump administration wants to feed that everything is back to normal and everything should be open.

"This is to strong-arm universities and colleges to buy into that narrative which the Trump administration is trying to sell that everything is fine."

The ICE order on international students comes two weeks after the US government temporarily suspended work visas, including H1B, for foreign workers, as the US unemployment level hit record levels due to COVID-19. That order affected more than 400,000 H1B visa applications.

Greg Siskind, an immigration lawyer based in Memphis, said it was not a coincidence that the ICE order comes a few months before the 2020 US presidential elections. "The president believes that these things will help him which is why these things happen," he said. "I think COVID-19 is just an excuse to do things that they wanted to do all along."

Jenny J Lee, a professor at the Center for the Study of Higher Education at the University of Arizona, said the ICE order is consistent with anti-immigration policies that have been rolled out by the Trump administration.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...n-chinese-students-panic-200709091726735.html

 

[MenInG]

angladeshi students pursuing higher education in the United States face uncertainty over their future due to a new policy of the US administration on not allowing foreign students in the aftermath of Covid-19.

On Monday, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in a statement said it would not allow foreign students to remain in the country if the courses they take this fall were entirely online.

ICE said the decision came as an effort to reduce coronavirus transmission in the country.

Talking to The Daily Star, several Bangladeshi students studying at different colleges and universities in the US called the decision "inhumane, demeaning and mindless."

"The decision is nothing but inhumane and cruel to international students studying in the US," said Nuhan B Abid, a student at Dickinson College.


He said he was still waiting for further instructions from his university about how the ruling specifically affects them.

Since his university is conducting in-person classes for the fall semester, he is not directly affected. "However, this would still depend on my course load, as some of my classes might still be remote," he said.

The ICE in the statement said, "Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States."

"Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status," it said.

"If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings," it said.

The new policy came at a time when the number of Bangladeshi students is growing fast in the US.

According to the 2019 Open Doors Report on International Educational Exchange, the number of students from Bangladesh studying in the United States stood at 8,249 during the most recent academic year (2018/2019).

This is an all-time high for Bangladesh, reflecting a 10 percent increase over the 2018 report and more than tripling since 2009.

Bangladesh now ranks 20th in the world in terms of sending students to the US for higher education.

The increase in the number of Bangladeshi students is highest in the South Asian region. Out of total 8,249 Bangladeshi students studying in the US, 5,278 study at the graduate level, a 13.5 percent increase over 2017/2018 academic year.

"A MINDLESS NEW POLICY"

Nuhan said based on the recent instructions imposed by the ICE, international students risk being deported if universities conduct all courses online this fall.

"This means we will either have to leave the USA or transfer to a school that is conducting in-person classes," he said.

Now, since many students chose to go home due to the pandemic, they will be asked to risk their health and fly back. And if the student is in a country with travel restrictions, he/she may even have trouble coming back for in-person classes, risking visa status, he feared.

My international peers are scrambling to find expensive flights on short notice, knowing they'll have to actively risk an in-person semester or risk losing the education they worked so hard for.

"None of this is fair to us and with how the F-1 visa works, we can't do much to advocate for our rights and have to rely on our domestic peers and administration to step up for us to force a change", he added.

Nuren Iftekhar, a graduate student of chemistry at Virginia Tech said that being thousands of miles away from the country to pursue higher studies can be stressful for many reasons.

"But I honestly didn't think I'd have to wake up one day and be threatened with the prospect of being evacuated for a mindless new policy," he said.

"The fact that a decision like this would be taken against a large number of students is inhumane. We are once again being a victim of an asinine bureaucratic move that berates our hard work", he added.

The likely scenario is that the university authority would be unwillingly reopening their class putting the lives of students at risk. "Meanwhile on a personal level I'm now living under the constant worry of having to abandon my research that I've been working on for the past year and be forced out of the country, not knowing if I'd even be able to come back again," Nuren added.

He said the university and the professors are just as troubled by the situation. Their research is driven by a large participation from the international students.

"To say that the directive has been infuriating and even demeaning is an understatement", Prionti Dipita Nasir a student of Rochester Institute of Technology said.

Many of her friends at colleges that have chosen to be fully online are preparing to take leaves of absence, while still trying to push their respective college authorities to find suitable workarounds.

Too many of them are financially drained already, and so flying back home will be a difficult undertaking. "We are signing petitions to the government with the hope that it might miraculously end up reaching and swaying them", she said.

"Until the directive was declared, I was frowning at my college's decision to adopt a hybrid model -- one that will mix a high percentage of in-person classes with online offerings. This has proved to be a blessing in disguise because I, like other international students in my college, can remain in the country and continue my studies".

"But this is entirely conditional. If fully online instruction becomes necessary at any point, the directive will have serious implications for us," she said.

https://www.thedailystar.net/frontpage/news/severe-blow-foreign-students-1928421

 

[sweep_shot]

Not a good situation for international students. They are probably losing a lot of money due to this pandemic.

I don't know about USA but international students in Canada pay 2-3 times more than domestic students.

 

[iRfaN_LA]

Not a good situation for international students. They are probably losing a lot of money due to this pandemic.

I don't know about USA but international students in Canada pay 2-3 times more than domestic students.

Same in the US. International student fee is at least 2-3 times more than in-state.

 

[Itachi]

Not a good situation for international students. They are probably losing a lot of money due to this pandemic.

I don't know about USA but international students in Canada pay 2-3 times more than domestic students.

I think in all countries it is same.

 

[Nostalgic]

I feel for these kids, having been in these shoes once. Its an emotional rollercoaster, the euphoria and optimism of a potential future career in the US, tempered by the sheer uncertainty of it all: the rigmarole of job fairs and interviews and internships on the one hand, and negotiating the visa and later the permanent resident process on the other, not knowing where the chips may fall, forever fearing the worst.

But then I remind myself that a substantial chunk of these kids are from the Humsaaya Mulk, the sort I had the misfortune of studying with, and I feel so much better.

 

[JaDed]

This will put a dent to STEM field masters from India for sure, might work well for Canada to have cheap STEM labor, question is can they utilize it because I don't see Indian entrepreneurs being able to utilize this talent and don't think many of these students can establish a startup which is different.

Unfortunate for students as most probably took loans for this which itself is an anxious process ,not to forget preparation for GRE TOEFL which takes a while too, I remember I was unable to gather funds for it and had to let go of Masters aspirations ,no regrets though.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I feel for these kids, having been in these shoes once. Its an emotional rollercoaster, the euphoria and optimism of a potential future career in the US, tempered by the sheer uncertainty of it all: the rigmarole of job fairs and interviews and internships on the one hand, and negotiating the visa and later the permanent resident process on the other, not knowing where the chips may fall, forever fearing the worst.

But then I remind myself that a substantial chunk of these kids are from the Humsaaya Mulk, the sort I had the misfortune of studying with, and I feel so much better.

The last sentence ..... Our boi nostalgic becoming more and more patriotic every day. Nice!

 

[sshakir411]

Trump’s tactic to get universities to open this fall. Stupid and pathetic.

 

[Buffet]

Trump’s tactic to get universities to open this fall. Stupid and pathetic.

Pretty much this.

Many people in US don't appreciate the advanatge US has by attracting top students from world.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Pretty much this.

Many people in US don't appreciate the advanatge US has by attracting top students from world.

For the creme de le creme of students US does benefit from them. These star students should always be welcome. But for the B+ students how much benefits the country gets are debatable. They depreciate the wages of the people already here. Plus there are a finite number of jobs available. The country does benefit from them, as they are educated immigrants. But its understandable why people are upset, especially in the current environment.

 

[Nostalgic]

The last sentence ..... Our boi nostalgic becoming more and more patriotic every day. Nice!

Not really, it’s just that in the past I would keep my visceral hatred of the neighbors under wraps. Not so much post-August 5.

 

[sjahmed23]

I feel for these kids, having been in these shoes once. Its an emotional rollercoaster, the euphoria and optimism of a potential future career in the US, tempered by the sheer uncertainty of it all: the rigmarole of job fairs and interviews and internships on the one hand, and negotiating the visa and later the permanent resident process on the other, not knowing where the chips may fall, forever fearing the worst.

But then I remind myself that a substantial chunk of these kids are from the Humsaaya Mulk, the sort I had the misfortune of studying with, and I feel so much better.

Spot on. I see posts on linkedin from Humsaaya Mulk people like it's their birth right to study in the US and get a job here. Social justice matters in the US but not in their own country where millions of muslims are under siege. Why don't they make India open for visas from other countries and let's see what the reaction is like

 

[Buffet]

For the creme de le creme of students US does benefit from them. These star students should always be welcome. But for the B+ students how much benefits the country gets are debatable. They depreciate the wages of the people already here. Plus there are a finite number of jobs available. The country does benefit from them, as they are educated immigrants. But its understandable why people are upset, especially in the current environment.

People who are upset don't take time to look at basic facts.

This H1 visa opposition or stopping stem students is not based on facts in current enviroment as well.


------------------


Unemployment Rate For Computer Occupations Fell In May


The 2.5% unemployment rate in May 2020 for individuals in computer occupations is significantly lower than the 13.5% unemployment rate for all other occupations.

Jan-20 3.0% April-20 2.8% May 20 2.5%


https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...omputer-occupations-fell-in-may/#250b8a7116ad

--------------------

I will take those B+ students as well, because they will add lot more value than family immigration chain which is majority of migration in US.

 

[Giannis]

For the creme de le creme of students US does benefit from them. These star students should always be welcome. But for the B+ students how much benefits the country gets are debatable. They depreciate the wages of the people already here. Plus there are a finite number of jobs available. The country does benefit from them, as they are educated immigrants. But its understandable why people are upset, especially in the current environment.

Well most immigrants/naturalized citizens in this country are not from the so called "creme de le creme", they're more likely B or even C students. That shouldn't matter, as long as there is a shortage of labor then foreign labor will be required. I do agree that Indians have played the system and monopolized certain industries for far too long however I do not appreciate Pakistanis resorting to their inherent elitism/gatekeeperism which is rooted in our culture, and this is coming from a native born American.

 

[CricketCartoons]

An exception must be made for Trump loving Indians ( Hindus). Trump should prove that he loves Hindus.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Well most immigrants/naturalized citizens in this country are not from the so called "creme de le creme", they're more likely B or even C students. That shouldn't matter, as long as there is a shortage of labor then foreign labor will be required. I do agree that Indians have played the system and monopolized certain industries for far too long however I do not appreciate Pakistanis resorting to their inherent elitism/gatekeeperism which is rooted in our culture, and this is coming from a native born American.

Well its because people are worried about there own jobs. Alot of people are in furloughs. So its natural for the population to be worried. most people in US support immigration of high skilled workers, but right now if some curbs should happen, should at least warrant a debate. There are immigrants in pretty much every field in the US.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

People who are upset don't take time to look at basic facts.

This H1 visa opposition or stopping stem students is not based on facts in current enviroment as well.


------------------


Unemployment Rate For Computer Occupations Fell In May


The 2.5% unemployment rate in May 2020 for individuals in computer occupations is significantly lower than the 13.5% unemployment rate for all other occupations.

Jan-20 3.0% April-20 2.8% May 20 2.5%


https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...omputer-occupations-fell-in-may/#250b8a7116ad

--------------------

I will take those B+ students as well, because they will add lot more value than family immigration chain which is majority of migration in US.

Absolutely. However immigrants dont just work in IT. they are in every field, including fields where people are under furlough. I think there should at least be some debate about whether immigration should be temporarily curbed. Normally i am in complete support of immigration, and think that people opposing it are just worried about the demographic change and are opposed only because the immigrants are non white. However in this environment some discussion wont hurt.

 

[Buffet]

Absolutely. However immigrants dont just work in IT. they are in every field, including fields where people are under furlough. I think there should at least be some debate about whether immigration should be temporarily curbed. Normally i am in complete support of immigration, and think that people opposing it are just worried about the demographic change and are opposed only because the immigrants are non white. However in this environment some discussion wont hurt.

We do have around 70% H1 in IT field which is struggling to due to extremeely low unemployment. Then another 10% in engineering and healthcare. Ideally, we don't need to get all of them from outside, but if you step into any stem program in university, it's mostly immigrants.

I know one small(300+) IT company run by one of my friend. Due to not able to get people, he is simply sending projects to Ukrain. He is not really saving much in cost because it's not effiecient due to nature of projects, but he is forced to do so.

There is surely abuse by mostly Indian companies, but simply stopping H1 is going to hurt us in long term. More and more work which can not be done here for whatver reason will be sent outside.

Stopping students is poorly thought act. Trump wants schools to be open. Many schools depend on foreign students for revenue. This is simply pressure to open schools physically.

I can surely see why issue of immigrants will come during high unemployment, but we need to distinguish between nature of immigrants to make sure we are not lumping everythihng together. 40% of starts ups in SV are started by first generation immigrants. That creates lots of jobs and increases our tax base as well.

Instead of blanket ban, it's far better to make sure that it's not abused otherwise companies are already making satelite offices outside US due to problem with this.

 

[Giannis]

Well its because people are worried about there own jobs. Alot of people are in furloughs. So its natural for the population to be worried. most people in US support immigration of high skilled workers, but right now if some curbs should happen, should at least warrant a debate. There are immigrants in pretty much every field in the US.

You see the thing, it isn't just high skilled workers that are needed - there are studies by academics and people within the industry that study the market and know what they need, some industries have a huge shortage of manual labor and lowskilled jobs while other sectors need "high skilled" "advanced degree" individuals, it depends on the industry. Desis think every career revolves around the cubicle; more people from Mexico and Ireland are working on the farms on America and Canada than there are engineers and CPAs from Asia. At the end of the day no company can hire anyone from another country unless they get a labor-need certificate from the USCIS - it's a strenous process, they do a strict job vetting the company and their hiring process, the company that hired the foreigner has to prove that they advertised the job in America and tried really hard to find an American to do the job but couldn't. If people knew how the immigration system actually works then they wouldn't be making such statements. It's like when I hear white supremamcists saying "we need to vet immigrants", ignoring how much vetting already takes place - they just assume they let people in like it was the case in the Ellis island days. That said, I do think we need to crack down on the Indian visa mills that have gamed the system.

 

[Giannis]

80% of computer science graduate students in America are international students lol, of course the job market will be dominated by them. We don't have to keep all of them and a lot of them will eventually make their way to Canada or Europe or Australia or even the Arabian gulf but it'd be nice if we gave them a path to permanent residence as is the case in Canada.

 

[sjahmed23]

80% of computer science graduate students in America are international students lol, of course the job market will be dominated by them. We don't have to keep all of them and a lot of them will eventually make their way to Canada or Europe or Australia or even the Arabian gulf but it'd be nice if we gave them a path to permanent residence as is the case in Canada.

What? where did you get this number from? Maybe Grad students are... but do you really need a grad degree for a programming job? I don't see how an American can't do programming job with a bachelors in EE/CS where there are certainly more than 20% graduating....

And so what if alot of these schools have to end their graduate programs because no one wants to enroll in them? Does every college in America need a graduate program?

 

[sjahmed23]

Not to mention there is an influx of people changing their careers/majors to jump into computer science. There are coding boot camps poping up in every city and they are churning out programmers left and right (some more capable than those graduating from MS programs) ... I think America will be more than okay if it doesn't get grad students from India there are plenty of people lined up to take those entry level jobs who get pushed out because of immigrants from India...

 

[Nostalgic]

Spot on. I see posts on linkedin from Humsaaya Mulk people like it's their birth right to study in the US and get a job here. Social justice matters in the US but not in their own country where millions of muslims are under siege. Why don't they make India open for visas from other countries and let's see what the reaction is like

Just last year, an American classmate forwarded me posts on social media about a pro-Modi conclave deep in the Rocky Mountains, complete with banners, flags and whatnot, and I recognized a few of my former classmates in the pictures. I imagine they all also made the trek to Dallas or Houston or wherever it was the Howdy Modi lovefest took place.

 

[pillionrider]

Why don't they make India open for visas from other countries and let's see what the reaction is like

Don't know about others, but am pretty sure there will be a throng of budding students from Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir queuing up to study in Indian universities.

Just like their Indian brothers from across the border

Just last year, an American classmate forwarded me posts on social media about a pro-Modi conclave deep in the Rocky Mountains, complete with banners, flags and whatnot, and I recognized a few of my former classmates in the pictures. I imagine they all also made the trek to Dallas or Houston or wherever it was the Howdy Modi lovefest took place.

Indian students are a bit bipolar. Those who love their country like the ones you mentioned can't wait to flee to foreign universities.

Those who despise their country and are particularly from the Indian Union Territory of Jammu & Kashmir can't wait to study in their country's universities.

Not really, it’s just that in the past I would keep my visceral hatred of the neighbors under wraps. Not so much post-August 5.

The difference between a budding writer and a writer is, the former hates specific things while the latter hates everyone and everything.

 

[JaDed]

Not to mention there is an influx of people changing their careers/majors to jump into computer science. There are coding boot camps poping up in every city and they are churning out programmers left and right (some more capable than those graduating from MS programs) ... I think America will be more than okay if it doesn't get grad students from India there are plenty of people lined up to take those entry level jobs who get pushed out because of immigrants from India...

I'm from India and on H1B without masters but have done BE Computer Science, you are right when you say it doesn't need to be computer science major to do IT job ,also right that American grads better than many Indian Master students but you are incorrect if you think anyone that learns to code can apply that code at enterprise or even application level.

Having said that my previous lead and current IT Infra lead are veterans, while the Tech Lead was amazing , the Infra Lead isn't.

While America should do what is good for itself and you as an American citizen have every right to ask for ban on immigration or Students from India but your assumption that everyone that learns to code can work in the field is incorrect if you ever worked in an IT company.

Another thing is its a boring cubicle job, most of the Engineering grads prefer to work in Silicon valley kind of startups, they enter the market thinking the job would be interesting and get disinterested with the project work given and leave within an year or two for something more challenging(that's where a lot of growth within a company is lost but tech growth is good).
The non-engineering grads that get into coding expect high starting salary which they will not get as they don't have the experience and many assume they would get high salary if Indian IT workers didn't reduce the median salary, this is what I have personally observed w.r.t IT in atleast Illinois and Texas.

 

[Giannis]

What? where did you get this number from? Maybe Grad students are... but do you really need a grad degree for a programming job? I don't see how an American can't do programming job with a bachelors in EE/CS where there are certainly more than 20% graduating....

And so what if alot of these schools have to end their graduate programs because no one wants to enroll in them? Does every college in America need a graduate program?

I got it from some Twitter Journalist.

 

[ahsan17]

We do have around 70% H1 in IT field which is struggling to due to extremeely low unemployment. Then another 10% in engineering and healthcare. Ideally, we don't need to get all of them from outside, but if you step into any stem program in university, it's mostly immigrants.

I know one small(300+) IT company run by one of my friend. Due to not able to get people, he is simply sending projects to Ukrain. He is not really saving much in cost because it's not effiecient due to nature of projects, but he is forced to do so.

There is surely abuse by mostly Indian companies, but simply stopping H1 is going to hurt us in long term. More and more work which can not be done here for whatver reason will be sent outside.

I have discussed this with a few people in my circle. The first problem is that the bulk of H1Bs are given to Indian consulting companies such as Wipro, Infosys, TCS, etc which are acronymed WITCH. Source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

These companies seem to be committing particularly egregious abuse of H1B and should be investigated. Moreover, H1Bs are supposed to be given to specially skilled or highly gifted individuals. As such, the minimum salary (IMO) required for H1B should be 175k across the US. That will cut down the abuse significantly. The minimum salary should be higher in certain high CoL areas such as NYC and Bay Area, perhaps as high as 250k. I mean, most entry level software engineers are making 100k-ish at least, if not much more. So why should the highly gifted or highly skilled ones be making similar or a little more? They should be making 175k across the US at the very perhaps.

 

[globalcitizen]

F1 visas are provided on clause the students should attend classes in person. With universities deciding to go online only this was bound to happen.
This is not some new law being created, it was always there but now implemented for a different reason.
only reason to not implement is empathy which I doubt they will consider

 

[JaDed]

I have discussed this with a few people in my circle. The first problem is that the bulk of H1Bs are given to Indian consulting companies such as Wipro, Infosys, TCS, etc which are acronymed WITCH. Source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

These companies seem to be committing particularly egregious abuse of H1B and should be investigated. Moreover, H1Bs are supposed to be given to specially skilled or highly gifted individuals. As such, the minimum salary (IMO) required for H1B should be 175k across the US. That will cut down the abuse significantly. The minimum salary should be higher in certain high CoL areas such as NYC and Bay Area, perhaps as high as 250k. I mean, most entry level software engineers are making 100k-ish at least, if not much more. So why should the highly gifted or highly skilled ones be making similar or a little more? They should be making 175k across the US at the very perhaps.

Where did you get this number?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Where did you get this number?

100k-ish is not a number, but a range. Also, most is not a number.

 

[ahsan17]

Where did you get this number?

Based on common sense more than anything. I don't believe there is empirical data available on this. For locations with high number of software engineers such as bay area, Seattle, NYC this is generally assumed to be the case. These three are by far the biggest tech hubs in the US. In low or medium CoL areas such as Dallas, Chicago, Denver you may average closer to 80k, but for US overall I think it is widely assumed that 100k is quite an average starting income (including stocks, bonuses) etc.

 

[JaDed]

100k-ish is not a number, but a range. Also, most is not a number.

True.

Based on common sense more than anything. I don't believe there is empirical data available on this. For locations with high number of software engineers such as bay area, Seattle, NYC this is generally assumed to be the case. These three are by far the biggest tech hubs in the US. In low or medium CoL areas such as Dallas, Chicago, Denver you may average closer to 80k, but for US overall I think it is widely assumed that 100k is quite an average starting income (including stocks, bonuses) etc.

You are talking about tech companies not IT as such where those are the salaries. You should differentiate as a bank/insurance/Healthcare companies where IT as such is only part of its job force will not give 100 k to every graduate fresh out of college.Canadian example would be BMO vs Shopify..

And the salary range of ones in tech companies is high already my assumption is you want this to be increased?

https://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Google/225093.htm

Since you do take myvisajobs as a source here is another data from that for Google.

Profiles of foreign workers who applied for green card under PERM:
Citizenship: China(1666); India(953); Canada(361); South Korea(89); Taiwan(82); Australia(60); France(59); Germany(57); Ukraine(51); United Kingdom(51)

 

[sjahmed23]

I'm from India and on H1B without masters but have done BE Computer Science, you are right when you say it doesn't need to be computer science major to do IT job ,also right that American grads better than many Indian Master students but you are incorrect if you think anyone that learns to code can apply that code at enterprise or even application level.

Having said that my previous lead and current IT Infra lead are veterans, while the Tech Lead was amazing , the Infra Lead isn't.

While America should do what is good for itself and you as an American citizen have every right to ask for ban on immigration or Students from India but your assumption that everyone that learns to code can work in the field is incorrect if you ever worked in an IT company.

Another thing is its a boring cubicle job, most of the Engineering grads prefer to work in Silicon valley kind of startups, they enter the market thinking the job would be interesting and get disinterested with the project work given and leave within an year or two for something more challenging(that's where a lot of growth within a company is lost but tech growth is good).
The non-engineering grads that get into coding expect high starting salary which they will not get as they don't have the experience and many assume they would get high salary if Indian IT workers didn't reduce the median salary, this is what I have personally observed w.r.t IT in atleast Illinois and Texas.

Yes, but every profession is difficult, you think being a lawyer is easy? But Americans do it... Some go in, do well and succeed... To generalize that americans don't want cubicle jobs that pay well and offer health care is blatantly false. Some of these programming jobs can be taught at high school because most of what you do learn in these jobs comes from job site training itself. Most tech companies will train their recruits for 2-3 months before assigning them to a project so I don't get why we need a constant influx of these "awesome great techies from India" when there are plenty of American who can do the job just aswell with little bit of training.

Sure it's not for everyone but what profession is? Americans should be given first priority to these jobs before being replaced by immigrants.

 

[gani999]

I really don't see why foreign students must be allowed to remain in the US if the univs are not holding contact classes. Online lessons can be attended from anywhere in the world, and the students can save money by returning home where they can live for free with their parents or families.
Once the pandemic blows over, these students can be allowed to return to the US and finish their studies. The authorities can allow the use of the existing student visas for this.

As for the 2020 fall intake, I really wouldn't advise any of the students to abroad for their studies. It is a complete mess everywhere. Stay at home for now, and maybe do some online courses to improve your CV and knowledge. Try again next year. The loss of one year will matter little in your overall career.

 

[BreadPakoda]

But then I remind myself that a substantial chunk of these kids are from the Humsaaya Mulk, the sort I had the misfortune of studying with, and I feel so much better.

More Chinese students than ones from Humsaaya Mulk. Given the relationship Pakistan has with China you should publicly cry over this decision. IK should beg to the US to reverse it.

 

[gani999]

Yes, but every profession is difficult, you think being a lawyer is easy? But Americans do it... Some go in, do well and succeed... To generalize that americans don't want cubicle jobs that pay well and offer health care is blatantly false. Some of these programming jobs can be taught at high school because most of what you do learn in these jobs comes from job site training itself. Most tech companies will train their recruits for 2-3 months before assigning them to a project so I don't get why we need a constant influx of these "awesome great techies from India" when there are plenty of American who can do the job just aswell with little bit of training.

Sure it's not for everyone but what profession is? Americans should be given first priority to these jobs before being replaced by immigrants.

Absolutely Americans must be given first preference for jobs in America. Europe does this very well. It is a matter of crying shame that successive US governments have done nothing to stop companies from bringing cheap workers from India and other places, and replacing American workers with them. The H1B program was intended to bring in high-quality talent in short supply, and not cheap labour.
Many Indians working in high paying tech jobs in the US that I have talked to agree completely with Trump and his policies.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I really don't see why foreign students must be allowed to remain in the US if the univs are not holding contact classes.

It’s dangerous to take long flights at the moment. You also don’t want to risk the lives of your dear ones back home.

 

[JaDed]

Yes, but every profession is difficult, you think being a lawyer is easy? But Americans do it... Some go in, do well and succeed... To generalize that americans don't want cubicle jobs that pay well and offer health care is blatantly false. Some of these programming jobs can be taught at high school because most of what you do learn in these jobs comes from job site training itself. Most tech companies will train their recruits for 2-3 months before assigning them to a project so I don't get why we need a constant influx of these "awesome great techies from India" when there are plenty of American who can do the job just aswell with little bit of training.

Sure it's not for everyone but what profession is? Americans should be given first priority to these jobs before being replaced by immigrants.

My point is more on expectations vs reality and yes Americans should be given first priority. The Indian Consultancies(CTS,TCS, Infy) will in 90% case send the candidate back home this makes the corporations that contract with these companies to not be liable for Health Insurance or any other funding as such.
Due to which IT projects move at a faster rate, also most tech companies(non- IT) have a campus in India as well.. it's more of an ease of supply , an American concept of reducing prices increasing the output(sometimes at cost of efficiency) ,quicker delivery- American corporation do this with Manufacturing as well.

Also you are a lawyer and no profession is easy but its about expectations, what is the solution that you are proposing ,increasing minimum wage or putting a ban on immigrants? Coz currently the ban is in place till Dec 31.

 

[JaDed]

Absolutely Americans must be given first preference for jobs in America. Europe does this very well. It is a matter of crying shame that successive US governments have done nothing to stop companies from bringing cheap workers from India and other places, and replacing American workers with them. The H1B program was intended to bring in high-quality talent in short supply, and not cheap labour.
Many Indians working in high paying tech jobs in the US that I have talked to agree completely with Trump and his policies.

Many Indian American Citizens don't want other Indians to give them competition as well(something they did to American citizens), it's a reason why they are supporting Trump in the first place and actually want a ban on Indians coming from India.

They have a right to ask for a ban as they are American citizens now but let's not play the righteous reason angle.

 

[sjahmed23]

My point is more on expectations vs reality and yes Americans should be given first priority. The Indian Consultancies(CTS,TCS, Infy) will in 90% case send the candidate back home this makes the corporations that contract with these companies to not be liable for Health Insurance or any other funding as such.
Due to which IT projects move at a faster rate, also most tech companies(non- IT) have a campus in India as well.. it's more of an ease of supply , an American concept of reducing prices increasing the output(sometimes at cost of efficiency) ,quicker delivery- American corporation do this with Manufacturing as well.

Also you are a lawyer and no profession is easy but its about expectations, what is the solution that you are proposing ,increasing minimum wage or putting a ban on immigrants? Coz currently the ban is in place till Dec 31.

I'm proposing we get knitty gritty about the skills we need. The H1 brushes everyone with the same brush as "highly technical" worker when I can garuntee 70-80% of those workers are just programmers who the US has an abundance of. Every programmer starts somewhere and with experience goes to new tech.

What's happening with influx of immigrants is that Americans are not being allowed entry into these fields, corporate America will go after the best talent for the cheapeast price, if that talent is willing to take entry level salary after 10 years of experience then corporate America will take that talent. Hence we end up with generalizations that Americans simply don't want these jobs....

Programming jobs should not need to hire H1b, there is an abundant supply of software engineers in the US. Tech leads, architects and etc one could make an argument for...

 

[JaDed]

I'm proposing we get knitty gritty about the skills we need. The H1 brushes everyone with the same brush as "highly technical" worker when I can garuntee 70-80% of those workers are just programmers who the US has an abundance of. Every programmer starts somewhere and with experience goes to new tech.

What's happening with influx of immigrants is that Americans are not being allowed entry into these fields, corporate America will go after the best talent for the cheapeast price, if that talent is willing to take entry level salary after 10 years of experience then corporate America will take that talent. Hence we end up with generalizations that Americans simply don't want these jobs....

Programming jobs should not need to hire H1b, there is an abundant supply of software engineers in the US. Tech leads, architects and etc one could make an argument for...

That was happening under Trump anyway.. USCIS had rejected most of these generic programming H1Bs(extensions) which had no experience or were just random skill out there which many Americans had, that is also the reason for the increase in wages in last 3 years(until covid) if not during Obama time IT salaries were like meh...that actually works well for everyone but this will not happen under Democrats..

Also I posted above it's not only Indians but Chinese and Canadians too that are hired by these tech and they do their GC as well..


https://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Spon...gle/225093.htm


Profiles of foreign workers who applied for green card under PERM:
Citizenship: China(1666); India(953); Canada(361); South Korea(89); Taiwan(82); Australia(60); France(59); Germany(57); Ukraine(51); United Kingdom(51)

 

[Buffet]

I have discussed this with a few people in my circle. The first problem is that the bulk of H1Bs are given to Indian consulting companies such as Wipro, Infosys, TCS, etc which are acronymed WITCH. Source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

These companies seem to be committing particularly egregious abuse of H1B and should be investigated. Moreover, H1Bs are supposed to be given to specially skilled or highly gifted individuals. As such, the minimum salary (IMO) required for H1B should be 175k across the US. That will cut down the abuse significantly. The minimum salary should be higher in certain high CoL areas such as NYC and Bay Area, perhaps as high as 250k. I mean, most entry level software engineers are making 100k-ish at least, if not much more. So why should the highly gifted or highly skilled ones be making similar or a little more? They should be making 175k across the US at the very perhaps.

You are off by some big margin about it. All Entry level IT jobs are not in SV and even in SV not all of them pay 100+ for entry level jobs with batchelors.

If you have unemplyment rate of 2.5% in IT, then it tells you something about how many skilled owrker we have. Majority of H1 are highly skilled not highly gifted.

Cracking down on abuse is one thing, but making roadblocks for IT comanies in US by putting 175k+ salary will ensure that majority of work will be done outside US. Eventually it's going to hurt US and other countries will benefit. Tons of companies are having a second office in Toronto and hiring there for the same job. You make 175K a requirement for H1 then this proccess will simply accelerate. It will be penny smart and pound foolish decisions.

If we have 1M extra worker who can do the job, sure put restrictions to get immigrant from outside, but we don't have that situation.


Also, it's not as simple as providing high or low salary. Most of supply chain logistics survived during pandemic with workers from outside. They don't make salaries as high as H1B, but there is reason for them to take up these jobs. These jobs are not taken by US citizens.

Same situation exist in IT. Jobs exist, but we don't have enough skilled workers toherwise we won't be talking about 100-175K for entry level jobs scenario.

 

[ahsan17]

True.



You are talking about tech companies not IT as such where those are the salaries. You should differentiate as a bank/insurance/Healthcare companies where IT as such is only part of its job force will not give 100 k to every graduate fresh out of college.Canadian example would be BMO vs Shopify..

And the salary range of ones in tech companies is high already my assumption is you want this to be increased?

https://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Google/225093.htm

Since you do take myvisajobs as a source here is another data from that for Google.

Profiles of foreign workers who applied for green card under PERM:
Citizenship: China(1666); India(953); Canada(361); South Korea(89); Taiwan(82); Australia(60); France(59); Germany(57); Ukraine(51); United Kingdom(51)

That's fine, even if non tech companies are not paying 100k entry level, they are still fairly close. The numbers don't have to be exact for my point to be valid with respect to increasing minimum income for H1B workers.

The other thing I will add is that, at least in my experience, H1B software engineers tend to be intermediate or senior software engineers - I have rarely come across entry level ones. They generally have a few years experience from India.

There are a couple issues I will mention:

1) As someone else mentioned on this thread, vast majority of the H1B software engineers don't tend to do anything different than the millions of USC or GC software engineers in the US. So it's not clear what special skills they are bringing, especially when we know there a ton of software engineers in the US that can't find jobs or who had to change careers because they couldn't find jobs.

2) And yet H1Bs are usually getting paid less than GC or USC. This is the disconnect IMO, if they are truly special skilled, they should be making as much if not more. This makes it obvious what H1B program is being used for, i.e. to bring cheap workers rather than highly skilled workers.

If they make the minimum salary requirement around 175k then at least you solve the problem where WITCH companies (and many others) bring in cheap workers that other companies use as consultants to get rid of their American workforce.

American workforce has been abused and discarded quite harshly. H1B is just the tip of the iceberg. The manufacturing jobs that went to China (off topic) are another huge example of this.

 

[JaDed]

That's fine, even if non tech companies are not paying 100k entry level, they are still fairly close. The numbers don't have to be exact for my point to be valid with respect to increasing minimum income for H1B workers.

The other thing I will add is that, at least in my experience, H1B software engineers tend to be intermediate or senior software engineers - I have rarely come across entry level ones. They generally have a few years experience from India.

There are a couple issues I will mention:

1) As someone else mentioned on this thread, vast majority of the H1B software engineers don't tend to do anything different than the millions of USC or GC software engineers in the US. So it's not clear what special skills they are bringing, especially when we know there a ton of software engineers in the US that can't find jobs or who had to change careers because they couldn't find jobs.

2) And yet H1Bs are usually getting paid less than GC or USC. This is the disconnect IMO, if they are truly special skilled, they should be making as much if not more. This makes it obvious what H1B program is being used for, i.e. to bring cheap workers rather than highly skilled workers.

If they make the minimum salary requirement around 175k then at least you solve the problem where WITCH companies (and many others) bring in cheap workers that other companies use as consultants to get rid of their American workforce.

American workforce has been abused and discarded quite harshly. H1B is just the tip of the iceberg. The manufacturing jobs that went to China (off topic) are another huge example of this.

Not under Trump they are not, you are referring to Obama time salaries, during Trump the visa gets rejected if its low but putting it as 175k is effectively banning it as even Architects in many IT projects don't make 175 k..

So you can just say ban the H1bs for citizens of India,China and just get Canadians as the only foreign workforce to work in these tech companies unless you think all foreign visa work restrictions should be similar which would Canadians as well in this case as they don't make 175 k either.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Not under Trump they are not, you are referring to Obama time salaries, during Trump the visa gets rejected if its low but putting it as 175k is effectively banning it as even Architects in many IT projects don't make 175 k..

So you can just say ban the H1bs for citizens of India,China and just get Canadians as the only foreign workforce to work in these tech companies unless you think all foreign visa work restrictions should be similar which would Canadians as well in this case as they don't make 175 k either.

Cultural homogeneity is a force multiplier for any nation. The demography should not get polluted. Indians, though model immigrants, should get a chance only when options are exhausted from other western nations.

 

[Bigboii]

Cultural homogeneity is a force multiplier for any nation. The demography should not get polluted. Indians, though model immigrants, should get a chance only when options are exhausted from other western nations.

 

[JaDed]

Cultural homogeneity is a force multiplier for any nation. The demography should not get polluted. Indians, though model immigrants, should get a chance only when options are exhausted from other western nations.

That's what Pakistani posters here are trying to say, one wonders how they actually don't support Trump the leader but end up supporting most of his policies.

 

[ahsan17]

Not under Trump they are not, you are referring to Obama time salaries, during Trump the visa gets rejected if its low but putting it as 175k is effectively banning it as even Architects in many IT projects don't make 175 k..

So you can just say ban the H1bs for citizens of India,China and just get Canadians as the only foreign workforce to work in these tech companies unless you think all foreign visa work restrictions should be similar which would Canadians as well in this case as they don't make 175 k either.

So what would you consider reasonable besides 175k? Would 150k work? The current minimum salary for H1B is something very few software engineers would be getting. We can argue whether it should be 175k or 150k etc, but the point being either of those are far more reasonable than the current minimum.

Also, it should be regionalized. The number should likely be 175k in Bay area, NYC, Seattle but perhaps 100k in Dallas, Chicago etc.

 

[JaDed]

So what would you consider reasonable besides 175k? Would 150k work? The current minimum salary for H1B is something very few software engineers would be getting. We can argue whether it should be 175k or 150k etc, but the point being either of those are far more reasonable than the current minimum.

Also, it should be regionalized. The number should likely be 175k in Bay area, NYC, Seattle but perhaps 100k in Dallas, Chicago etc.

It is regionalized already, the rate depends upon the location. Maybe its time you go through the process and it's applications, even the Indian body shops have higher salary for NJ,NYC,Cali than TX,NC,SC.

I don't really care about the minimum but surprised to see you think its 150 k minimum for someone with 3-4 years exp.. but that's alright.. maybe you should ask the Canadians that come to states how much they make in tech companies.

 

[Slog]

More Chinese students than ones from Humsaaya Mulk. Given the relationship Pakistan has with China you should publicly cry over this decision. IK should beg to the US to reverse it.

Most Chinese go back home anyway. In fact most of them in my uni had gone back when lockdown started when it was apparent this semester will be virtual.

The thing is majority of them don’t have any intention to stay and work even on OPT

 

[JaDed]

Most Chinese go back home anyway. In fact most of them in my uni had gone back when lockdown started when it was apparent this semester will be virtual.

The thing is majority of them don’t have any intention to stay and work even on OPT

Maybe in your uni but Google's GC data suggests otherwise..

 

[ahsan17]

It is regionalized already, the rate depends upon the location. Maybe its time you go through the process and it's applications, even the Indian body shops have higher salary for NJ,NYC,Cali than TX,NC,SC.

I don't really care about the minimum but surprised to see you think its 150 k minimum for someone with 3-4 years exp.. but that's alright.. maybe you should ask the Canadians that come to states how much they make in tech companies.

I heard from someone that used to be on H1B that there is no regional minimum, but you are right, upon researching the minimums are indeed regionalized. But the minimums I found for SF and peninsula area of the bay area are still quite low. For a level 4 engineer in that region it should be 200k at least (even that sounds low), keeping in mind companies pay a lot through RSU and options. Here I am talking about total compensation, not base salary. IMO the number has to be reasonable. The current minimums are way too low.

I don't know of one Canadian making less than 150k total compensation, even those that are in low CoL areas.

 

[JaDed]

I heard from someone that used to be on H1B that there is no regional minimum, but you are right, upon researching the minimums are indeed regionalized. But the minimums I found for SF and peninsula area of the bay area are still quite low. For a level 4 engineer in that region it should be 200k at least (even that sounds low), keeping in mind companies pay a lot through RSU and options. Here I am talking about total compensation, not base salary. IMO the number has to be reasonable. The current minimums are way too low.

I don't know of one Canadian making less than 150k total compensation, even those that are in low CoL areas.

I know 3 irrespective I have put the reasons for lower salary in IT of MN companies(service) vs Tech companies as such(product), its upto you to ignore or utilize it.

I can tell you that in Canada as well the salaries of service vs product based is huge.

 

[CricketCartoons]

That's what Pakistani posters here are trying to say, one wonders how they actually don't support Trump the leader but end up supporting most of his policies.

No, pakistanis don't agree with this principle of supporting monoculturalism in western countries (which is what I support). They do have the desi crab mentality which is common among subcontinentals where they are jealous of other desis pursuing western dreams.

 

[Slog]

Maybe in your uni but Google's GC data suggests otherwise..

70% of H1Bs selected in this years lottery were Indians. Use a broad based measure not just one company

 

[ahsan17]

I know 3 irrespective I have put the reasons for lower salary in IT of MN companies(service) vs Tech companies as such(product), its upto you to ignore or utilize it.

I can tell you that in Canada as well the salaries of service vs product based is huge.

Like I said, if it's regionalized in a reasonable way then not all regions need to have a minimum of 150k. Yes, in MN 150k doesn't make sense.

I already talked about non tech vs tech companies. They may pay a little less but we are not talking about such a huge difference here that it invalidates my point.

 

[sjahmed23]

I heard from someone that used to be on H1B that there is no regional minimum, but you are right, upon researching the minimums are indeed regionalized. But the minimums I found for SF and peninsula area of the bay area are still quite low. For a level 4 engineer in that region it should be 200k at least (even that sounds low), keeping in mind companies pay a lot through RSU and options. Here I am talking about total compensation, not base salary. IMO the number has to be reasonable. The current minimums are way too low.

I don't know of one Canadian making less than 150k total compensation, even those that are in low CoL areas.

I don't think there is a minimum. I have gotten emails from indian consulting companies to work for 60-70k in the bay area

 

[ahsan17]

I don't think there is a minimum. I have gotten emails from indian consulting companies to work for 60-70k in the bay area

I have heard similar stories too. H1B employees at WITCH companies making 60k in bay area, for example. is the minimum compensation actually enforced, or is it used by the tech industry lobby to distract and lie?

 

[JaDed]

70% of H1Bs selected in this years lottery were Indians. Use a broad based measure not just one company

Yes but i thought we were talking about uni students in that context.

 

[globalcitizen]

Many Indian American Citizens don't want other Indians to give them competition as well(something they did to American citizens), it's a reason why they are supporting Trump in the first place and actually want a ban on Indians coming from India.

They have a right to ask for a ban as they are American citizens now but let's not play the righteous reason angle.

I think most who has worked in the industry understand that H1b is a farce.
most working onsite won’t be able to compete with their india counterparts on skill level.
There is absolutely no merit from the time of qualifying for the h1b lottery to getting selected internally for an on-site work. in fact all deserving ones stay behind and the lucky ones , since they won a lottery will be onsite on falsely claimed skills especially if a junior.
This practice is going on for years and no one bothers to raise these issues since they are benefited themselves.
Now it’s come to USA government to take action and about time.
Your argument of Indian Americans not wanting some Indians to work in America is a joke. They don’t want them to work is because they are not skilled as they claim

 

[JaDed]

I think most who has worked in the industry understand that H1b is a farce.
most working onsite won’t be able to compete with their india counterparts on skill level.
There is absolutely no merit from the time of qualifying for the h1b lottery to getting selected internally for an on-site work. in fact all deserving ones stay behind and the lucky ones , since they won a lottery will be onsite on falsely claimed skills especially if a junior.
This practice is going on for years and no one bothers to raise these issues since they are benefited themselves.
Now it’s come to USA government to take action and about time.
Your argument of Indian Americans not wanting some Indians to work in America is a joke. They don’t want them to work is because they are not skilled as they claim

The same Indian Americans that came through that system are now more skilled, right.

 

[ahsan17]

In my anecdotal experience, the H1Bs that I have come across or worked with are not particularly good software engineers. They range from average to well below average. They have good interviewing skills when it comes to leetcode-style interview (since those interviews are purely academic and have little to no relation to real world software engineering).and good skills to make their work appear bigger or more important than it was - which is why they are often involved in office politics.

 

[globalcitizen]

The same Indian Americans that came through that system are now more skilled, right.

They are skilled in what ever professions they do. but it does not matter they are citizens already.
I was talking about most h1b skilled workers from India in service companies. It’s just a matter of luck and also they will be trying their best to hold their positions and in turn blocking the path for another skilled worker for their opportunities.
it’s a literal abuse of system and probably paying for it now

 

[Bigboii]

You know this thread is indian ah when half of the conversation is about IT and stuff lol
Boring ah I had to struggle in order for me to not go to sleep
me and the whole IT clique like talk

(btw I am just jealous cause of the paycheck )

 

[globalcitizen]

In my anecdotal experience, the H1Bs that I have come across or worked with are not particularly good software engineers. They range from average to well below average. They have good interviewing skills when it comes to leetcode-style interview (since those interviews are purely academic and have little to no relation to real world software engineering).and good skills to make their work appear bigger or more important than it was - which is why they are often involved in office politics.

Totally agree with this

 

[Slog]

Yes but i thought we were talking about uni students in that context.

H1B is more relevant to uni students obv. Thats common knowledge.

The normal uni student path is:
F1 -> OPT - H-1B.

this is the path most indian students take while a lot of chinese go back.

students rarely if ever get to go directly from f1 to greencard

 

[sjahmed23]

I have heard similar stories too. H1B employees at WITCH companies making 60k in bay area, for example. is the minimum compensation actually enforced, or is it used by the tech industry lobby to distract and lie?

Alot of the tech industry outsources their mundane work to these consulting companies. They do have presence inside apple, google microsoft etc and the work goes to the lowest bidder hence they give their employees the lowest minimum ($60k for h1b).

It is really sad what they have done to this profession. Imagine if doctors and teachers were allowed to get outsourcing contracts like this...

 

[ahsan17]

You are off by some big margin about it. All Entry level IT jobs are not in SV and even in SV not all of them pay 100+ for entry level jobs with batchelors.

The gist of my post is that, the numbers don't have to exact for my point to be valid. Vast majority of IT jobs are in SV/Seattle/NYC. If you are not getting 100k then you are likely getting at least 90k. Point being, I am talking about 70-80% of the cases and not necessarily all cases.

If you have unemplyment rate of 2.5% in IT, then it tells you something about how many skilled owrker we have. Majority of H1 are highly skilled not highly gifted.

And yet we have a ton of people on reddit unable to land jobs, and people switching to other careers because they couldn't find jobs. If there's truly a shortage then US can bring in foreign workers, agreed, but not at the cost of undercutting compensation.

Cracking down on abuse is one thing, but making roadblocks for IT comanies in US by putting 175k+ salary will ensure that majority of work will be done outside US. Eventually it's going to hurt US and other countries will benefit. Tons of companies are having a second office in Toronto and hiring there for the same job. You make 175K a requirement for H1 then this proccess will simply accelerate. It will be penny smart and pound foolish decisions.

If we have 1M extra worker who can do the job, sure put restrictions to get immigrant from outside, but we don't have that situation.


Also, it's not as simple as providing high or low salary. Most of supply chain logistics survived during pandemic with workers from outside. They don't make salaries as high as H1B, but there is reason for them to take up these jobs. These jobs are not taken by US citizens.

Same situation exist in IT. Jobs exist, but we don't have enough skilled workers toherwise we won't be talking about 100-175K for entry level jobs scenario.

175k doesn't necessarily make sense for all levels and all regions. I was thinking that as the minimum for bay area/Seattle/NYC. However, perhaps in lower CoL it should be 100k. And then for upper level (e.g. principal engineers) it should be 200k in high CoL areas.

 

[ahsan17]

Alot of the tech industry outsources their mundane work to these consulting companies. They do have presence inside apple, google microsoft etc and the work goes to the lowest bidder hence they give their employees the lowest minimum ($60k for h1b).

It is really sad what they have done to this profession. Imagine if doctors and teachers were allowed to get outsourcing contracts like this...

And it seems like engineers in this industry have realized what these consulting firms are doing to the industry. Go on reddit, teamblind etc, and posts are filled with dislike for H1B, especially these consulting firms. Yeah, if the foreign doctors in the US were being used to lower the income of US doctors, I can't imagine that going down too well.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You know this thread is indian ah when half of the conversation is about IT and stuff lol
Boring ah I had to struggle in order for me to not go to sleep
me and the whole IT clique like talk
View attachment 102166
(btw I am just jealous cause of the paycheck )

Same here. 100k starting. Amazing.

 

[Syed1]

Same here. 100k starting. Amazing.

From the outside it looks amazing but you have to factor in the cost of living in places like California, specifically around Silicon Valley. 100k starting would mean after tax roughly 70k. Using this:
https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#zkgOt7Carc


That means about $5850 per month. Now even studio apartments around that area are $2500 rent. People are paying about $3600 for rent ON AVERAGE for tiny apartments.




Couple this rent with a modest car and suddenly 100k starting doesn't look very lucrative anymore. Beside silicon valley companies are notorious for hiring fresh grads and working them into the ground with loooong hours and strict deadlines.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

From the outside it looks amazing but you have to factor in the cost of living in places like California, specifically around Silicon Valley. 100k starting would mean after tax roughly 70k. Using this:
https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#zkgOt7Carc


That means about $5850 per month. Now even studio apartments around that area are $2500 rent. People are paying about $3600 for rent ON AVERAGE for tiny apartments.
View attachment 102168



Couple this rent with a modest car and suddenly 100k starting doesn't look very lucrative anymore. Beside silicon valley companies are notorious for hiring fresh grads and working them into the ground with loooong hours and strict deadlines.

I live in the US. There is a reason for my username.

 

[Syed1]

I live in the US. There is a reason for my username.

Hahahhahaha )


I'm in wannabe US, Toronto..... Property is sky high but only 10% of the opportunities for advancement

 

[Bigboii]

I live in the US. There is a reason for my username.

Lol so true