UK born British citizens of Pakistani origin, who are unable or unwilling to regard the UK as 'home'

[Yossarian]

The vast majority of British citizens of Pakistani origin have either lived in the UK for decades and/or have been born in the UK, grown up in the UK, done their schooling in the UK, work and live in the UK, and are likely to die and be buried in the UK.

Most are 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation born and bred in the UK.

And yet many of them, including some on this forum, don't regard the UK as their 'home', and still regard themselves as being 'Pakistanis' despite, more often than not, only ever having visited Pakistan a handful of times at most, and even then just for a few weeks of holiday at a time to see distant relatives.

So the question arises:

Despite all of the above, if they still don't regard themselves as being part of this country, as part of this nation, and still don't regard these islands as their 'home', with all that it entails in terms of loyalty to the country, then how can they expect others, ie the local host community, to regard them as being part of this country, part of this nation?

(My parents are now buried here in the UK, I have lived nearly all my life in the UK (apart from my stints living/working in the USA and various European and Middle Eastern countries) and my children, born in the UK, are being brought up to regard themselves as being part of this country, and not as 'Pakistanis')

 

[blackanhyellow]

It is perfectly normal.

It can take much longer for the connection to the "homeland" to be wiped out.

Take Italian-Americans as an example. Why do they still refer themselves as Italian-Americans when most were born in the U.S and don't even speak Italian?

Why do hispanics in the U.S. still consider themselves as Mexican and cheer for the Mexican soccer team even if they were born in the U.S?

British - Pakistanis do have some additional variables that will keep their connection to the homeland longer than other cultures. The main one being that many choose to (or are pressured into) marrying someone from Pakistan. Even those born in the UK sometimes marry their cousin or someone from Pakistan. Another factor is the desi enclaves in the UK such as in Bradford. Going out in shalwar kameez is probably a regular occurrence there.

 

[Slog]

It is perfectly normal.

It can take much longer for the connection to the "homeland" to be wiped out.

Take Italian-Americans as an example. Why do they still refer themselves as Italian-Americans when most were born in the U.S and don't even speak Italian?

Why do hispanics in the U.S. still consider themselves as Mexican and cheer for the Mexican soccer team even if they were born in the U.S?

British - Pakistanis do have some additional variables that will keep their connection to the homeland longer than other cultures. The main one being that many choose to (or are pressured into) marrying someone from Pakistan. Even those born in the UK sometimes marry their cousin or someone from Pakistan. Another factor is the desi enclaves in the UK such as in Bradford. Going out in shalwar kameez is probably a regular occurrence there.

the ones who do are mostly on border states and are first generation

italian american is just a term lol. theirs no case of conflicting loyalties

 

[Yossarian]

It is perfectly normal.

It can take much longer for the connection to the "homeland" to be wiped out.

Take Italian-Americans as an example. Why do they still refer themselves as Italian-Americans when most were born in the U.S and don't even speak Italian?

Why do hispanics in the U.S. still consider themselves as Mexican and cheer for the Mexican soccer team even if they were born in the U.S?

British - Pakistanis do have some additional variables that will keep their connection to the homeland longer than other cultures. The main one being that many choose to (or are pressured into) marrying someone from Pakistan. Even those born in the UK sometimes marry their cousin or someone from Pakistan. Another factor is the desi enclaves in the UK such as in Bradford. Going out in shalwar kameez is probably a regular occurrence there.

I disagree. The Italians etc. still regard themselves as 'Americans' first and foremost, and that is in complete contrast to the majority of British citizens of Pakistani origin who refer to themselves as 'Pakistanis', even those who are 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation UK born and bred.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I want to know are these people legally entitled to being UK citizens ?? If yes, there shouldn't be any problem on what they think or what opinion they have !!

This is a free world and freedom of speech and thought is one of the basic fundamentals of Human Rights !!

This rationale is the same line of thinking that enables TRUMP to call for a ban on existing american citizens that do not show 'respect' to the US flag....

 

[Yossarian]

I want to know are these people legally entitled to being UK citizens ?? If yes, there shouldn't be any problem on what they think or what opinion they have !!

This is a free world and freedom of speech and thought is one of the basic fundamentals of Human Rights !!

This rationale is the same line of thinking that enables TRUMP to call for a ban on existing american citizens that do not show 'respect' to the US flag....

"I want to know are these people legally entitled to being UK citizens ?" What do you think considering that, as the OP states, they are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation UK born? And oh, as the OP states, them being "British citizens"?

As for the rest of your post, I'll refer you to the main point of the thread, ie

"if they still don't regard themselves as being part of this country ....................
.............then how can they expect others, ie the local host community, to regard them as being part of this country?"

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

"I want to know are these people legally entitled to being UK citizens ?" What do you think considering that, as the OP states, they are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation UK born? And oh, as the OP states, them being "British citizens"?

As for the rest of your post, I'll refer you to the main point of the thread, ie

"if they still don't regard themselves as being part of this country ....................
.............then how can they expect others, ie the local host community, to regard them as being part of this country?"

I don't really understand this point. Why should the local host community be considered as any different to any other person born in the UK whether his ancestral heritage is from Germany, Italy or Pakistan? Who are these local host community people that someone like myself should feel answerable to?

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

I don't really understand this point. Why should the local host community be considered as any different to any other person born in the UK whether his ancestral heritage is from Germany, Italy or Pakistan? Who are these local host community people that someone like myself should feel answerable to?

Perfectly said.
Following the law , paying taxes and doing good things is more important .

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Religion my friend religion.

Love for your country is part of your faith is misinterpreted when the country isn't (Muslim)


So they want to associate themselves with a so called Muslim country from where there great grandparents migrated.


If you are born in a Non Muslim country still you should consider country of your birth of which you are a citizen/national as your home and motherland.


On this forum the religious muslim UK friends do not consider UK as there home while there are some Pakistan born muslim brothers now UK nationals who consider UK as their home but they are non religious/non practicing muslims or liberals.


No offence to anyone but I support the OP's personal stance and believe this is how it should be from both religious aswell as moral/human aspect.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Religion my friend religion.

Love for your country is part of your faith is misinterpreted when the country isn't (Muslim)


So they want to associate themselves with a so called Muslim country from where there great grandparents migrated.


If you are born in a Non Muslim country still you should consider country of your birth of which you are a citizen/national as your home and motherland.


On this forum the religious muslim UK friends do not consider UK as there home while there are some Pakistan born muslim brothers now UK nationals who consider UK as their home but they are non religious/non practicing muslims or liberals.


No offence to anyone but I support the OP's personal stance and believe this is how it should be from both religious aswell as moral/human aspect.

What is the OP's stance? I wasn't aware that he had taken one from that post, seemed more of a question to me.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

What is the OP's stance? I wasn't aware that he had taken one from that post, seemed more of a question to me.

This is his personal stance :


" (My parents are now buried here in the UK, I have lived nearly all my life in the UK (apart from my stints living/working in the USA and various European and Middle Eastern countries) and my children, born in the UK, are being brought up to regard themselves as being part of this country, and not as 'Pakistanis') "

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is his personal stance :


" (My parents are now buried here in the UK, I have lived nearly all my life in the UK (apart from my stints living/working in the USA and various European and Middle Eastern countries) and my children, born in the UK, are being brought up to regard themselves as being part of this country, and not as 'Pakistanis') "

On that I wholeheartedly agree, but as I already mentioned above, why do we then need to distinguish ourselves from the 'local host community' which surely, by that logic, we are one and the same?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

On that I wholeheartedly agree, but as I already mentioned above, why do we then need to distinguish ourselves from the 'local host community' which surely, by that logic, we are one and the same?

Yes you are one and same and local community should think the same aswell.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't really understand this point. Why should the local host community be considered as any different to any other person born in the UK whether his ancestral heritage is from Germany, Italy or Pakistan? Who are these local host community people that someone like myself should feel answerable to?

OK, let me put it it another way since the reference to 'host community' is perhaps ambiguous.

If British citizens of Pakistani origin, even those 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation born and bred in the UK, don't see themselves as being members of British society, don't regard Britain as their 'home', with all that it entails in terms of loyalty to this country, but still see themselves as being 'Pakistanis' first and foremost, with loyalties to Pakistan and not to the UK, then how can they expect the rest of British society to regard them as being fully fledged members of British society and not see them as being 'foreigners'?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

OK, let me put it it another way since the reference to 'host community' is perhaps ambiguous.

If British citizens of Pakistani origin, even those 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation born and bred in the UK, don't see themselves as being members of British society, don't regard Britain as their 'home', with all that it entails in terms of loyalty to this country, but still see themselves as being 'Pakistanis' first and foremost, with loyalties to Pakistan and not to the UK, then how can they expect the rest of British society to regard them as being fully fledged members of British society and not see them as being 'foreigners'?

Firstly, I agree that anyone who is a British citizen with all the rights that come with it should with no hesitation hold loyalty to Britain over and above Pakistan, Cyprus, India or Australia. That being a given though we should remember that loyalty should be demanded of ALL British citizens, not just those who might be regarded as 'foreigners'. Indeed there are many who would consider' left wing loonies' as agents of Russia and to look at them you couldn't in any way mistake them as 'foreigners'.

I suppose this raises a further debate of how loyal should one be? Even in Pakistan we have contributors here who unashamedly hate their own country. Should those people also be judged disloyal or in fact respected for their views?

 

[Yossarian]

Firstly, I agree that anyone who is a British citizen with all the rights that come with it should with no hesitation hold loyalty to Britain over and above Pakistan, Cyprus, India or Australia. That being a given though we should remember that loyalty should be demanded of ALL British citizens, not just those who might be regarded as 'foreigners'. Indeed there are many who would consider' left wing loonies' as agents of Russia and to look at them you couldn't in any way mistake them as 'foreigners'.

I suppose this raises a further debate of how loyal should one be? Even in Pakistan we have contributors here who unashamedly hate their own country. Should those people also be judged disloyal or in fact respected for their views?

Good points. And by and large I don't disagree with any of what you say above.

However, in the cases of those that, as you put it, unashamedly hate their own country, they still regard themselves as being loyal members of their society and country, and in their viewpoint, they are the one's who are 'the true patriots' and everyone else are the ones who are disloyal and 'sell outs'.

The difference with the British citizens of Pakistani origin mentioned in the OP (and also perhaps a few of other ethnic backgrounds), who are born and bred in the UK, is that they themselves state that their loyalties are not to Britain but to Pakistan and elsewhere.
There have even been threads on this forum where they have stated that, if push comes to shove, their loyalties will be to Pakistan and not to the UK, even though they have been born and grown up in the UK, and in many cases where their parents, and even grandparents, have been born and raised in the UK.

 

[Buffet]

The vast majority of British citizens of Pakistani origin have either lived in the UK for decades and/or have been born in the UK, grown up in the UK, done their schooling in the UK, work and live in the UK, and are likely to die and be buried in the UK.

Most are 2nd, 3rd, even 4th generation born and bred in the UK.

And yet many of them, including some on this forum, don't regard the UK as their 'home', and still regard themselves as being 'Pakistanis' despite, more often than not, only ever having visited Pakistan a handful of times at most, and even then just for a few weeks of holiday at a time to see distant relatives.

I could be wrong, but I recall reading in PP that even 2nd or 3rd generations marry some one from Pakistan in a large numbers. If that's the case then connection with Pakistan may be a lot stronger with one parent growing up in Pakistan. So being 2nd or 3rd generation can be a bit different than what normally happens in this situation.

 

[Pakistanian]

As American of Pakistani descent, I'm an American but I also consider myself Pakistani and that's not any different to how most people here identify with their heritage.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Good points. And by and large I don't disagree with any of what you say above.

However, in the cases of those that, as you put it, unashamedly hate their own country, they still regard themselves as being loyal members of their society and country, and in their viewpoint, they are the one's who are 'the true patriots' and everyone else are the ones who are disloyal and 'sell outs'.

The difference with the British citizens of Pakistani origin mentioned in the OP (and also perhaps a few of other ethnic backgrounds), who are born and bred in the UK, is that they themselves state that their loyalties are not to Britain but to Pakistan and elsewhere.
There have even been threads on this forum where they have stated that, if push comes to shove, their loyalties will be to Pakistan and not to the UK, even though they have been born and grown up in the UK, and in many cases where their parents, and even grandparents, have been born and raised in the UK.

I haven't seen these people who claim loyalty to Pakistan if push comes to shove, but then I don't open every thread. I don't really see a problem there, if their loyalty is to Pakistan they should move there otherwise their deeds don't match their words.

 

[Yossarian]

As American of Pakistani descent, I'm an American but I also consider myself Pakistani and that's not any different to how most people here identify with their heritage.

It's different in the States. They see themselves as being 'American' first and foremost. Not so in the UK. That may partly be due to the quirkiness of the 'UK' being different to 'Britain' which in turn is different to being 'English', 'Welsh', 'Scottish' or 'Irish'. Each of these designations have historical associations and differences.
For example, being 'English' is normally associated with being 'white' and having ancestral roots in England.

I suppose the closed example one can think of in the USA would be someone seen as being a 'Yank' or "Yankee', which has different meanings dependent upon the context and scope, and whether it's American's themselves referring to other Americans as "Yanks" or whether it's non-Americans referring to Americans.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't really think we can compare to the States, that whole country is made up of immigrants and their descendants. But whether you are African American or Chinese American, it is true most of them will still see themselves as Americans first and foremost and that's how it should be.

 

[The_KING]

I never understand why anyone in their right mind would regard themselves as a Pakistani over British. UK is one the best places in the world while Pakistani is one of the worst. I personally don't care much about either country as I'm not patriotic but I'm always embarrassed to tell people that I'm from Pakistan. I very rarely tell someone that I'm from Pakistan because I care about my reputation and being a Pakistan isn't great especially when that country is always in the news for all the wrong reasons. Even though I'm not patriotic, I identity myself as a British first and then Pakistani. If you live in this country and have been living here for a long time and yet you consider Pakistan home and not this country, then you need to get the hell out of here and back to Pakistan. People like you aren't needed here.

 

[Saj]

If they don't regard UK as home then they shouldn't be in the UK and should go and live in Pakistan.

Shouldn't live in a country that thety don't like or don't regard as home.

The UK provides its residents with opportunities that these people would not get everywhere. If they cannot make the most of those opportunities then it's their loss.

 

[Yossarian]

I could be wrong, but I recall reading in PP that even 2nd or 3rd generations marry some one from Pakistan in a large numbers. If that's the case then connection with Pakistan may be a lot stronger with one parent growing up in Pakistan. So being 2nd or 3rd generation can be a bit different than what normally happens in this situation.

True.

But the fact that it was the Pakistani born parent who came to the UK upon marriage, and not the other way around, means that both parents have accepted that the UK will be their home, and the home of their future offspring. So that in itself should mean that if not the parents, then at least the children born to these parents should regard the UK as their 'home', and the rest of the UK populace as their 'countrymen'. They need to stop seeing themselves as 'Pakistanis' and start to regard themselves as being British or UK citizens - or as being UK citizens of Pakistani origin.

And their loyalties should be to the UK first and foremost, to the UK citizens who are their schoolmates, their work colleagues, their neighbours ..... and not to Pakistan.

 

[Bilal7]

I really don't understand this. It's okay if the guy is only there for his studies or for a short period of time but when you've been there for years and even generations, it's the sign of a confused person if they still think that they are Pakistanis.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

A no-win thread.

I see myself as a British Pakistani. I'm British born and Pakistani. I've a Pakistani ID card and I can choose to buy a property in Keran if I wish to.

I love both nations. I mainly eat Pakistani food and I'm interested in both cultures.

I don't need to prove my loyalty to either country because I integrate with others, work hard, pay my taxes, talk about my culture and openly wear it, it is in my heart and I have great knowledge about it.

Funny that people claim people should go to Pakistan if they don't consider UK as home; The British empire did the same before 1947 and continued to reside in British India. I'm sure nobody said the same to them

 

[Yossarian]

A no-win thread.

I see myself as a British Pakistani. I'm British born and Pakistani. I've a Pakistani ID card and I can choose to buy a property in Keran if I wish to.

I love both nations. I mainly eat Pakistani food and I'm interested in both cultures.

I don't need to prove my loyalty to either country because I integrate with others, work hard, pay my taxes, talk about my culture and openly wear it, it is in my heart and I have great knowledge about it.

Funny that people claim people should go to Pakistan if they don't consider UK as home; The British empire did the same before 1947 and continued to reside in British India. I'm sure nobody said the same to them

And yet you choose to make UK your (permanent?) home.

So let me put a (hypothetical, but given the Brexit mood, a future possibility) question to you:

If the UK (or Pakistan) decided that the law on dual citizenship was to be changed, and you were forced to choose between keeping your British citizenship or keeping your Pakistani citizenship, which would you choose to keep and which to give up?

For example, if Pakistan followed India in not recognizing dual citizenship. (The Indian government's Overseas Citizens of India (OCI) and Person of Indian Origin (PIO) programs are not "dual nationality" or "dual citizenship.")

 

[KingKhanWC]

If you have lived all your life in UK, you are British , only your roots are Pakistani.

It gets more complicated for those who came over in the 50s, 60's, they may have lived most of their lives in the UK but they feel Pakistani as they came over for a better living and nothing more.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

And yet you choose to make UK your (permanent?) home.

So let me put a (hypothetical, but given the Brexit mood, a future possibility) question to you:

If the UK (or Pakistan) decided that the law on dual citizenship was to be changed, and you were forced to choose between keeping your British citizenship or keeping your Pakistani citizenship, which would you choose to keep and which to give up?

For example, if Pakistan followed India in not recognizing dual citizenship. (The Indian government's Overseas Citizens of India (OCI) and Person of Indian Origin (PIO) programs are not "dual nationality" or "dual citizenship.")

I would keep my British citizenship because most of my family is in the UK. But it's not the case. I have two strings to my bow.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

If you have lived all your life in UK, you are British , only your roots are Pakistani.

It gets more complicated for those who came over in the 50s, 60's, they may have lived most of their lives in the UK but they feel Pakistani as they came over for a better living and nothing more.

There is always the worry about right wing parties. That's why we keep our link to Pakistan. Especially with the growing tide of Islamophobia.

I am proud to be British and Pakistani. But I'm open.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

And yet you choose to make UK your (permanent?) home.

So let me put a (hypothetical, but given the Brexit mood, a future possibility) question to you:

If the UK (or Pakistan) decided that the law on dual citizenship was to be changed, and you were forced to choose between keeping your British citizenship or keeping your Pakistani citizenship, which would you choose to keep and which to give up?

For example, if Pakistan followed India in not recognizing dual citizenship. (The Indian government's Overseas Citizens of India (OCI) and Person of Indian Origin (PIO) programs are not "dual nationality" or "dual citizenship.")

Ps I know people who have got Dual citizenship with Hong Kong. Because they're not brown and not Muslim, it's not such a big deal.

Chinese people don't integrate either within the UK. Although I believe in integration and I do it personally, I find these identity questions are selectively aimed at south Asian people.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

If you have lived all your life in UK, you are British , only your roots are Pakistani.

It gets more complicated for those who came over in the 50s, 60's, they may have lived most of their lives in the UK but they feel Pakistani as they came over for a better living and nothing more.

The thing is, a lot of British people don't see me as being British, but like Pakistanis might not see me as being Pakistani. There's no right and wrong answer.

I am proud of my two identities but the foreign policy of the U.K. has alienated a lot of British Muslims.

 

[Yossarian]

The thing is, a lot of British people don't see me as being British.......,

And that's the whole crux of the thread.
ie If those mentioned in the OP don't see and regard themselves as being British, then how can they expect the rest of British society to see them and accept them as being British?
"Hey, you must accept and see me as being British even if I don't do so myself"

 

[Yossarian]

I would keep my British citizenship because most of my family is in the UK. But it's not the case. I have two strings to my bow. ��

So does that also mean that in such a situation your loyalties and allegiances would be to Britain, to British people, to your schoolmates, work colleagues, neighbours and the rest of British society and not to Pakistan? And it won't simply be a matter of convenience?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

And that's the whole crux of the thread.
ie If those mentioned in the OP don't see and regard themselves as being British, then how can they expect the rest of British society to see them and accept them as being British?
"Hey, you must accept and see me as being British even if I don't do so myself"

It's the chicken and egg scenario.

Which triggers which? I suspect there are suspicions on both sides. Some white people do not see any Asian person as being British even if born here. Some south Asian people don't see themselves as British even if born here (minority though). Both may well be to blame.

There are three types of people. There are those that don't speak English and are ghettoised and won't call themselves British.
There are people who are young like me who are born here and regard themselves as British and (Pak/Indian/etc). The third type are born here and don't regard themselves as British and call themselves Muslim only.

The OP seems to point the blame at the ethnic minorities. I disagree. Both white people not willing to accept people as British and Asians/Paks not willing to see themselves as British, are to blame.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

And that's the whole crux of the thread.
ie If those mentioned in the OP don't see and regard themselves as being British, then how can they expect the rest of British society to see them and accept them as being British?
"Hey, you must accept and see me as being British even if I don't do so myself"

I'm not bothered what people see me as. I'm very comfortable in my skin having suffered racist abuse a number of times when younger.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

So does that also mean that in such a situation your loyalties and allegiances would be to Britain, to British people, to your schoolmates, work colleagues, neighbours and the rest of British society and not to Pakistan? And it won't simply be a matter of convenience?

I don't get why people create a hypothetical scenario for Pakistanis and not the Chinese or British Jews who have loyalty to Israel as well?

My allegiance lies with humans. I work in healthcare. I show my loyalty through my compassion to people, my taxes, my integration in society, mixing with people and having British culture. I believe in justice, fairness and equality.

I'm comfortable that sits alongside my pride in my heritage and the creation of Pakistan by Jinnah, which drives me to show faith, unity and discipline in my daily life.

Ps it also happens that I live amongst mainly Pakistanis although I will be moving to another area soon. Not that it's important to me.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't get why people create a hypothetical scenario for Pakistanis and not the Chinese or British Jews who have loyalty to Israel as well?

Because this is PakPassion, a site primarily consisting of members of Pakistani ethnicity

My allegiance lies with humans. I work in healthcare. I show my loyalty through my compassion to people, my taxes, my integration in society, mixing with people and having British culture. I believe in justice, fairness and equality.

I'm comfortable that sits alongside my pride in my heritage and the creation of Pakistan by Jinnah, which drives me to show faith, unity and discipline in my daily life.

Ps it also happens that I live amongst mainly Pakistanis although I will be moving to another area soon. Not that it's important to me.

Note the part in bold/red

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE AND PLEDGE OF LOYALTY

A person aged over 18 cannot be registered or naturalised as British
citizen unless he or she has made the relevant citizenship oath and
pledge at a citizenship ceremony.

The form of citizenship oath and pledge for registration of or naturalisation as a British citizen is as follows:

Oath:
"I, [name], swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British
citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors
according to law."

Pledge:

"I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its
rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I
will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and
obligations as a British citizen."

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/268021/oathofallegiance.pdf

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Because this is PakPassion, a site primarily consisting of members of Pakistani ethnicity


Note the part in bold/red

I do all the things the things that you've highlighted.

But what does loyalty mean? Supporting England first in cricket? Eating fish and chips more than Desi food? It's a very general comment.

I think loyalty includes the things that they've highlighted; so in that way I'm loyal

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I regard the UK and Pakistan both as home. If people don't call UK a home whilst living here; that's bizarre.

 

[Junaids]

To me it is not about loyalty, it is about identity.

Most Italian Americans are proud of both aspects of their identity.

Norman Tebbit's cricket Test was crude, but any number of similar little questions really help identify whether a person residing in Britain is assimilated or not.

To give a flippant but topical example, consider the 1987 song "The Fairytale of New York" now back in the Top Twenty for the fifteenth consecutive year.

If you hear the first chords and immediately smile or cry, you are part of our cultural identity, whatever your colour or creed. Pretty much every Irish or even New Zealand person aged 12 to 50 passes, let alone the British.

But if it's just another song to you, of no specific significance, then you're probably not really one of us. And that includes most EU immigrants, even though they look like us superficially.

 

[Robert]

To give a flippant but topical example, consider the 1987 song "The Fairytale of New York" now back in the Top Twenty for the fifteenth consecutive year.

If you hear the first chords and immediately smile or cry, you are part of our cultural identity, whatever your colour or creed. Pretty much every Irish or even New Zealand person aged 12 to 50 passes, let alone the British.

What if you heard the flippin' thing so many times that it grates?

 

[Junaids]

What if you heard the flippin' thing so many times that it grates?

That DEFINITELY counts.

I should have added "scream" as a third option, shouldn't I?

A bit like Ant and Dec make me feel.

It's when it is just meaningless music that I think it raises questions about assimilation.

I'm not on a mission to ethnically cleanse somewhere I don't even live any more!

I'm just fascinated by this thread and the thought that there are clearly many immigrants who feel excluded and marginalised but who haven't really made an effort to immerse themselves in the country's culture and society.

I don't understand how people can expect to develop loyalty when they don't try to take on the identity that goes with a place.

By the way, you might get less annoyed by "Fairytale" if you download the podcast of Radio 4's Soul Music episode about the song.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

To me it is not about loyalty, it is about identity.

Most Italian Americans are proud of both aspects of their identity.

Norman Tebbit's cricket Test was crude, but any number of similar little questions really help identify whether a person residing in Britain is assimilated or not.

To give a flippant but topical example, consider the 1987 song "The Fairytale of New York" now back in the Top Twenty for the fifteenth consecutive year.

If you hear the first chords and immediately smile or cry, you are part of our cultural identity, whatever your colour or creed. Pretty much every Irish or even New Zealand person aged 12 to 50 passes, let alone the British.

But if it's just another song to you, of no specific significance, then you're probably not really one of us. And that includes most EU immigrants, even though they look like us superficially.

I smile in response to that song.

 

[Junaids]

I smile in response to that song.

I've been through all your posts in this thread, and to me you are just British.

I realise that some bigots have given you a hard time, but you shouldn't let that affect you - you are as British as the current and previous Mayor of London.

All of us have roots, all of us have a heritage. But you should be defined by who you are, not by where your parents came from.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I've been through all your posts in this thread, and to me you are just British.

I realise that some bigots have given you a hard time, but you shouldn't let that affect you - you are as British as the current and previous Mayor of London.

All of us have roots, all of us have a heritage. But you should be defined by who you are, not by where your parents came from.

I am British and I'm Pakistani. (I call myself a British Pakistani). I'm very much British and I'm very much Pakistani. Proud of both. I'm not defined by my ethnicity or place of birth, but by my intentions, personality, law abiding, hard work and integration.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I've been through all your posts in this thread, and to me you are just British.

I realise that some bigots have given you a hard time, but you shouldn't let that affect you - you are as British as the current and previous Mayor of London.

All of us have roots, all of us have a heritage. But you should be defined by who you are, not by where your parents came from.

It's not always the bigots. There are often examples of subtle racism eg "where are you from?" (Birmingham). """No where are you FROM?!"

 

[Junaids]

I am British and I'm Pakistani. (I call myself a British Pakistani). I'm very much British and I'm very much Pakistani. Proud of both. I'm not defined by my ethnicity or place of birth, but by my intentions, personality, law abiding, hard work and integration.

I agree and disagree. Maybe because - given my Dad's upbringing in East Pakistan - I have issues around what Pakistani identity is. The whole point of partition creating two Pakistans was simply that Pakistanis were Muslim Indians.

At a pinch I'd say that you are an Englishman of Pakistani heritage. You've spoken of suffering prejudice in the U.K., but do you really want a share of ownership of issues like honour killings or Asia Bibi? Isn't that much, much worse?

I'm a bit surprised that you identify with the country of Pakistan rather its culture.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I agree and disagree. Maybe because - given my Dad's upbringing in East Pakistan - I have issues around what Pakistani identity is. The whole point of partition creating two Pakistans was simply that Pakistanis were Muslim Indians.

At a pinch I'd say that you are an Englishman of Pakistani heritage. You've spoken of suffering prejudice in the U.K., but do you really want a share of ownership of issues like honour killings or Asia Bibi? Isn't that much, much worse?

I'm a bit surprised that you identify with the country of Pakistan rather its culture.

British person of Pakistani heritage sounds good. Ps my aim by saying I'm British Pakistani and there being subtle racism in the U.K....it doesn't mean that I'm supporting acts of corruption, injustice or intolerance in Pakistan.

Maybe you want to add to the mix that my mother was from Kashmir, which is a disputed territory.

I love the UK and the justice, opportunities and stability it has given my family. My celebration of my two parts doesn't in any way act as aggression toward Britain or Pakistan

 

[Junaids]

British person of Pakistani heritage sounds good. Ps my aim by saying I'm British Pakistani and there being subtle racism in the U.K....it doesn't mean that I'm supporting acts of corruption, injustice or intolerance in Pakistan.

Maybe you want to add to the mix that my mother was from Kashmir, which is a disputed territory.

I love the UK and the justice, opportunities and stability it has given my family. My celebration of my two parts doesn't in any way act as aggression toward Britain or Pakistan

That sort of subtle racism has thankfully improved with time. I remember when English football fans heckled and threw bananas at black footballers!

I really welcome how multiracial the UK has become. We are better for it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I never understand why anyone in their right mind would regard themselves as a Pakistani over British. UK is one the best places in the world while Pakistani is one of the worst. I personally don't care much about either country as I'm not patriotic but I'm always embarrassed to tell people that I'm from Pakistan. I very rarely tell someone that I'm from Pakistan because I care about my reputation and being a Pakistan isn't great especially when that country is always in the news for all the wrong reasons. Even though I'm not patriotic, I identity myself as a British first and then Pakistani. If you live in this country and have been living here for a long time and yet you consider Pakistan home and not this country, then you need to get the hell out of here and back to Pakistan. People like you aren't needed here.

This is where I differ from you. If I get asked where I am from, not just by white people either, and like Wasim_Waqar I will always say England, then I will inevitably get asked, no where are you FROM??

But I have no hesitation in saying my parents were from Pakistan because I consider myself an exemplar. My kids are the same, very proud of their heritage and they are a shining light for British Pakistanis even if I say so myself.

Reminds me of when I was a student there was a football match organised between Pakistan vs India and one of the Indian guys looked in surprise as I lined up alongside the Pakistanis. He had been convinced I was Indian and was very much devastated to see me go over to the enemy side.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

That sort of subtle racism has thankfully improved with time. I remember when English football fans heckled and threw bananas at black footballers!

I really welcome how multiracial the UK has become. We are better for it.

Agreed. I'm a big England football fan but not plucked up courage to watch them live due to this kind of thing:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-abused-by-fellow-England-fans-in-Brazil.html

 

[PakLFC]

UK should be home for all who are born here. They can continue to have a soft spot for Pakistan and even have the choice to move back to the land of there ethnicity. Whilst living here UK should be number one for them, no doubt about it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The thing is, a lot of British people don't see me as being British, but like Pakistanis might not see me as being Pakistani. There's no right and wrong answer.

I am proud of my two identities but the foreign policy of the U.K. has alienated a lot of British Muslims.

You are correct many racists don't 'see people of colour as British but they have no right to say who is and who isn't.

Let me ask you one question.

It won't happen but hypothetically, if Britain and Pakistan went to war, which side would you be on? : )

 

[shaz619]

You are correct many racists don't 'see people of colour as British but they have no right to say who is and who isn't.

Let me ask you one question.

It won't happen but hypothetically, if Britain and Pakistan went to war, which side would you be on? : )

100% behind Birmingham with me AK.

Anyway, with the OP the issues are not so black and white, you've touched on some of the points to with regards to how others in the country perceive those of colour and foreign policy etc but if push came to shove 99% of people will not choose Pakistan over Britain, life is just so much better here. Other than that I'd say most are generally happy with their status as British Pakistanis, values all this country has given despite the issues (then again how many people are perfectly happy citizens? Why do we get singled out) and generally everyone is tolerant of each other and I say this despite the fact that a loved one of mine was stabbed recently (thankfully survived).

 

[Junaids]

UK should be home for all who are born here. They can continue to have a soft spot for Pakistan and even have the choice to move back to the land of there ethnicity. Whilst living here UK should be number one for them, no doubt about it.

I really love this post.

If you think about it, Moeen Ali and Nasser Hussain are not generally viewed as foreigners.

I think we have come a long way on race since I was a kid.

And a say that as person living in Australia who yesterday heard a really gentle and caring nurse describe her favourite (Aboriginal) patient as a "bit of a stinky c**n" when she heard that she was being discussed, and then broke down in tears of genuine grief when she heard that she had actually died.

People who are badly educated on race often say incredibly crass racial things, without necessarily being racist monsters.

 

[Thivagar]

Religion my friend religion.

Love for your country is part of your faith is misinterpreted when the country isn't (Muslim)


So they want to associate themselves with a so called Muslim country from where there great grandparents migrated.


If you are born in a Non Muslim country still you should consider country of your birth of which you are a citizen/national as your home and motherland.


On this forum the religious muslim UK friends do not consider UK as there home while there are some Pakistan born muslim brothers now UK nationals who consider UK as their home but they are non religious/non practicing muslims or liberals.


No offence to anyone but I support the OP's personal stance and believe this is how it should be from both religious aswell as moral/human aspect.

UK will always be their home and their homeland however can be Pakistan.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

100% behind Birmingham with me AK.

Anyway, with the OP the issues are not so black and white, you've touched on some of the points to with regards to how others in the country perceive those of colour and foreign policy etc but if push came to shove 99% of people will not choose Pakistan over Britain, life is just so much better here. Other than that I'd say most are generally happy with their status as British Pakistanis, values all this country has given despite the issues (then again how many people are perfectly happy citizens? Why do we get singled out) and generally everyone is tolerant of each other and I say this despite the fact that a loved one of mine was stabbed recently (thankfully survived).

I really love this post.

If you think about it, Moeen Ali and Nasser Hussain are not generally viewed as foreigners.

I think we have come a long way on race since I was a kid.

And a say that as person living in Australia who yesterday heard a really gentle and caring nurse describe her favourite (Aboriginal) patient as a "bit of a stinky c**n" when she heard that she was being discussed, and then broke down in tears of genuine grief when she heard that she had actually died.

People who are badly educated on race often say incredibly crass racial things, without necessarily being racist monsters.

UK will always be their home and their homeland however can be Pakistan.

We are comfortable as British Pakistanis. Much like British Indians. We can be proud of what we are, where we are and where we came from.

It's very different to being an Aussie or Kiwi origin in England because we stand out.

Ps the UK is the most tolerant nation in the world. It is a wonderful place which I call home.

 

[Junaids]

We are comfortable as British Pakistanis. Much like British Indians. We can be proud of what we are, where we are and where we came from.

It's very different to being an Aussie or Kiwi origin in England because we stand out.

Ps the UK is the most tolerant nation in the world. It is a wonderful place which I call home.

And it is our pleasure and privilege to have people with such attitudes come to enrich our country!

 

[Yossarian]

And it is our pleasure and privilege to have people with such attitudes come to enrich our country!

If he was born in the UK, he didn't 'come to enrich our country', he was always here! Whether you meant it not, by using that phrase, there's a subtle implication that he's not 'one of us' but a foreigner who 'came' here.

Of course if he wasn't born in the UK, you would be perfectly correct in saying what you've said.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If he was born in the UK, he didn't 'come to enrich our country', he was always here! Whether you meant it not, by using that phrase, there's a subtle implication that he's not 'one of us' but a foreigner who 'came' here.

Of course if he wasn't born in the UK, you would be perfectly correct in saying what you've said.

You have got the true spirit of a son of the soil Yoss. Many others can't help but reveal their immigrant mentality. Someone who truly belongs to Britain just doesn't feel the need to conform in a different way to any indigenous Brit.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

If he was born in the UK, he didn't 'come to enrich our country', he was always here! Whether you meant it not, by using that phrase, there's a subtle implication that he's not 'one of us' but a foreigner who 'came' here.

Of course if he wasn't born in the UK, you would be perfectly correct in saying what you've said.

I was born in the UK.

 

[Yossarian]

You have got the true spirit of a son of the soil Yoss. Many others can't help but reveal their immigrant mentality. Someone who truly belongs to Britain just doesn't feel the need to conform in a different way to any indigenous Brit.

Where I currently live, and whether by accident or by design or by luck (good luck or bad luck, depending upon others point of view, although not mine), we are the only family of Pakistani/Indian/West Indian heritage (ie non-white).

It's a medium sized, well-knit community, and none of our neighbours treat us or regard us as being any different to our other neighbours, and neither do we feel any different to any of the other residents in the area. My kids feel and see themselves as english as any of their friends and schoolmates - and are treated as such without exception.

Having said that, we have had some complaints from some neighbours down the road - They want to know why they don't all get invited when my wife cooks curries and samosa's and takes some round to our immediate neighbours!

The reason that I started the thread is because when I do go and visit family friends (mainly Pakistani origin family friends of my deceased parents) in the town where I grew up, which has a large Pakistani-origin population, and/or bump into past aquaintances whilst there, I get very irritated when comments are made along the lines of "you've moved away from the Pakistani community", "the gorays around here.......", "what's the gorays like where you live?" etc. And it's not always from the older generation, but also from 2nd, 3rd generationers.

 

[Yossarian]

I was born in the UK.

Hence my reply to [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You are correct many racists don't 'see people of colour as British but they have no right to say who is and who isn't.

Let me ask you one question.

It won't happen but hypothetically, if Britain and Pakistan went to war, which side would you be on? : )

Don't know the answer- prob neither!!

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Where I currently live, and whether by accident or by design or by luck (good luck or bad luck, depending upon others point of view, although not mine), we are the only family of Pakistani/Indian/West Indian heritage (ie non-white).

It's a medium sized, well-knit community, and none of our neighbours treat us or regard us as being any different to our other neighbours, and neither do we feel any different to any of the other residents in the area. My kids feel and see themselves as english as any of their friends and schoolmates - and are treated as such without exception.

Having said that, we have had some complaints from some neighbours down the road - They want to know why they don't all get invited when my wife cooks curries and samosa's and takes some round to our immediate neighbours!

The reason that I started the thread is because when I do go and visit family friends (mainly Pakistani origin family friends of my deceased parents) in the town where I grew up, which has a large Pakistani-origin population, and/or bump into past aquaintances whilst there, I get very irritated when comments are made along the lines of "you've moved away from the Pakistani community", "the gorays around here.......", "what's the gorays like where you live?" etc. And it's not always from the older generation, but also from 2nd, 3rd generationers.

I'm due to move to where there are less Pakistanis. That's mainly due to it being too disorderly and messy around here.

We are probably very similar. I personally seeing myself as British Pakistani ensures I behave appropriately. A lot of British Pakistanis who say "this is my country and I can do what I want" often find themselves in trouble.

It works for me; bit of both. British and Pakistani. I'm accepted by most in the UK as are others like me.

 

[Junaids]

If he was born in the UK, he didn't 'come to enrich our country', he was always here! Whether you meant it not, by using that phrase, there's a subtle implication that he's not 'one of us' but a foreigner who 'came' here.

Of course if he wasn't born in the UK, you would be perfectly correct in saying what you've said.

Very good point! I stand corrected.

He still makes the country better for his presence though!

 

[Junaids]

Very good point! I stand corrected.

He still makes the country better for his presence though!

As do I. By my absence!

 

[Yossarian]

As do I. By my absence!

Reminds of what my Scottish flatmate used to say just to annoy some of my other flatmates (eight of us were living in a company owned villa when working in the Middle East):

"When a Scotsman moves down south to live in England, the average IQ of both England and Scotland goes up!"

(Those who don't 'get it', find someone who's good at maths to explain it you!)

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Where I currently live, and whether by accident or by design or by luck (good luck or bad luck, depending upon others point of view, although not mine), we are the only family of Pakistani/Indian/West Indian heritage (ie non-white).

It's a medium sized, well-knit community, and none of our neighbours treat us or regard us as being any different to our other neighbours, and neither do we feel any different to any of the other residents in the area. My kids feel and see themselves as english as any of their friends and schoolmates - and are treated as such without exception.

Having said that, we have had some complaints from some neighbours down the road - They want to know why they don't all get invited when my wife cooks curries and samosa's and takes some round to our immediate neighbours!

The reason that I started the thread is because when I do go and visit family friends (mainly Pakistani origin family friends of my deceased parents) in the town where I grew up, which has a large Pakistani-origin population, and/or bump into past aquaintances whilst there, I get very irritated when comments are made along the lines of "you've moved away from the Pakistani community", "the gorays around here.......", "what's the gorays like where you live?" etc. And it's not always from the older generation, but also from 2nd, 3rd generationers.

Given your unprompted description of your interactions with said 'g.oray' perhaps your family friends think its a topic you enjoy speaking about.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

then how can they expect others, ie the local host community, to regard them as being part of this country, part of this nation?

If he was born in the UK, he didn't 'come to enrich our country', he was always here! Whether you meant it not, by using that phrase, there's a subtle implication that he's not 'one of us' but a foreigner who 'came' here.

Of course if he wasn't born in the UK, you would be perfectly correct in saying what you've said.

I find these posts quite contradictory. At first you make the distinction between 'hosts' and those with an immigrant background and in the second you pick up on someone who is ostensibly white British for saying 'our country'.

So which one is it?

 

[Yossarian]

I find these posts quite contradictory. At first you make the distinction between 'hosts' and those with an immigrant background and in the second you pick up on someone who is ostensibly white British for saying 'our country'.

So which one is it?

Go back and re-read the posts. I've clarified the 'hosts' comment. It was a poor choice of words.

As for the 'white British' and 'our country", the poster himself says he stands 'corrected'.

 

[Yossarian]

^^^ [MENTION=51465]DeadlyVenom[/MENTION]
Anyway, other than the two posts above, care to comment on the main gist of the thread? Will be interesting to hear your views, one way or the other.

 

[Boom boom legend]

You are correct many racists don't 'see people of colour as British but they have no right to say who is and who isn't.

Let me ask you one question.

It won't happen but hypothetically, if Britain and Pakistan went to war, which side would you be on? : )

Despite being born and bred in the UK, Pakistan all the time.

 

[Boom boom legend]

And to those who are not proud of being Pakistani, or those who are 'British first, then Pakistani, surely you should be supporting England in cricket then and not Pakistan.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

^^^ [MENTION=51465]DeadlyVenom[/MENTION]
Anyway, other than the two posts above, care to comment on the main gist of the thread? Will be interesting to hear your views, one way or the other.

Its a difficult question to answer.

they still don't regard themselves as being part of this country, as part of this nation, and still don't regard these islands as their 'home', with all that it entails in terms of loyalty to the country, then how can they expect others, ie the local host community, to regard them as being part of this country, part of this nation?

I don't know. How can they? Why does it matter if they do or don't? How do you know they expect the hosts to regard them as part of the nation?

Surely if they don't regard themselves as part of the nation then it would matter very little to them if the hosts do not regard them as part of it.

Personally I (3rd generation through Mother, Second through Father) dont regard myself as part of the nation. I share little of its history and have no relation to the mechanisms of power than run it. The establishment is alien to me, the foreign policy mainly deplorable.

My patriotism is limited to cheering on GB in the olympics and Scotland in Football.

As a citizen of the nation I respect its laws and traditions to the best of my abilities, try to be a good neighbour and vote for a political party that I feel is best served to run the country for the better, and will try my best to serve it.

I myself am a walking contradiction. I sometimes marvel at Hindi/Urdu shop signs and rows of Pakistani/Indian shops as a sign of multicultarlism and other times I can see the pov of the EDL/BNP when they say their streets have become unrecognisable.

Overall I'm not much fussed on what people feel or think aslong as they obey the rule of law and respect basic cultural traditions.

That sounds a half arsed answer but I find it difficult to put my feelings into words exactly

 

[Yossarian]

I haven't seen these people who claim loyalty to Pakistan if push comes to shove, but then I don't open every thread. I don't really see a problem there, if their loyalty is to Pakistan they should move there otherwise their deeds don't match their words.

In that case, here's an example.

You are correct many racists don't 'see people of colour as British but they have no right to say who is and who isn't.

Let me ask you one question.

It won't happen but hypothetically, if Britain and Pakistan went to war, which side would you be on? : )

Despite being born and bred in the UK, Pakistan all the time.

 

[Yossarian]

Its a difficult question to answer.



I don't know. How can they? Why does it matter if they do or don't? How do you know they expect the hosts to regard them as part of the nation?

Surely if they don't regard themselves as part of the nation then it would matter very little to them if the hosts do not regard them as part of it.

Personally I (3rd generation through Mother, Second through Father) dont regard myself as part of the nation. I share little of its history and have no relation to the mechanisms of power than run it. The establishment is alien to me, the foreign policy mainly deplorable.

My patriotism is limited to cheering on GB in the olympics and Scotland in Football.

As a citizen of the nation I respect its laws and traditions to the best of my abilities, try to be a good neighbour and vote for a political party that I feel is best served to run the country for the better, and will try my best to serve it.

I myself am a walking contradiction. I sometimes marvel at Hindi/Urdu shop signs and rows of Pakistani/Indian shops as a sign of multicultarlism and other times I can see the pov of the EDL/BNP when they say their streets have become unrecognisable.

Overall I'm not much fussed on what people feel or think aslong as they obey the rule of law and respect basic cultural traditions.

That sounds a half arsed answer but I find it difficult to put my feelings into words exactly

Appreciate your frankness.

I guess post #75 above says it all in a nutshell. It perfectly encapsulates the OP and the point of the thread.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Appreciate your frankness.

I guess post #75 above says it all in a nutshell. It perfectly encapsulates the OP and the point of the thread.

The war question is quite a silly one dont you think?

Its a childish question to be honest and its no surprise the answers are childish.

Lets be honest. Given the manner in which most Pakistanis have migrated, the lies that many tell to get here, the lies that many tell when they are here to claim the benefits of being in the country and the way that many quite quickly sell their religion to make a quick buck through selling Alcohol, I suspect that if ( God forbid) there was ever a war that the tough talk would soon vanish and people will act in whatever way possible to protect their own backsides.

Personally should such a situation ever occur I'd spend my time campaigning for peace

 

[Yossarian]

The war question is quite a silly one dont you think?

Its a childish question to be honest and its no surprise the answers are childish.

Lets be honest. Given the manner in which most Pakistanis have migrated, the lies that many tell to get here, the lies that many tell when they are here to claim the benefits of being in the country and the way that many quite quickly sell their religion to make a quick buck through selling Alcohol, I suspect that if ( God forbid) there was ever a war that the tough talk would soon vanish and people will act in whatever way possible to protect their own backsides.

Personally should such a situation ever occur I'd spend my time campaigning for peace

In that case, I'll go back to the question you posed in your previous post:

Why does it matter if they do or don't? How do you know they expect the hosts to regard them as part of the nation?

Surely if they don't regard themselves as part of the nation then it would matter very little to them if the hosts do not regard them as part of it.

My answer to that would be "Brexit".

Because let's be honest, to those living in areas not heavily affected by the influx of Polish and other East Europeans, but who still voted Brexit because of concerns about immigration, did so because, let's face it, to them immigration is all about those from outside Europe (and outside the 'white' Commonwealth).

And that in turn is heavily influenced by the perception (real or otherwise) that many of those with roots from places like Pakistan see themselves as not part of British society, as being separate from it, and wish to keep it that way whilst enjoying all the benefits and privileges of being British citizens.

In fact, your own post has hinted at something along similar lines:

.....and other times I can see the pov of the EDL/BNP when they say their streets have become unrecognisable.
"

So yes, it does matter how one is perceived by the rest of (British) society.