US wants India to be Involved in Afghanistan

[KingKhanWC]

That Afghanistan has never been conquered by an outsider is an oft repeated line by people who are not serious readers of history. It is true to an extent from the 18th century onwards, but Afghanistan in its history has seen plenty of conquests and influences from outside since time immemorial. I know people love to think such things fuelled by ethnic or religious chauvinism, but there's not a single territory on earth than has not seen conquests from the outside, it's silly to believe so.

Also what constitutes victory and defeat is arguable. Saying Afghans successfully defeated the US and drove out the Americans is a bit like Indian nationalists saying Indians successfully defeated and drove out the Brits during independence. Unlike say the Mughals who invaded India and established their dynasty within India itself while mingling with the local population, western powers generally invaded territories for their resources and colonisation throughout their history and the Brits only left because owning a colony because unsustainable monetary wise after the world war, which is pretty much why the Americans are leaving as maintaining their army in Afghanistan has been taking a toll on them monetarily.

Both the Americans and the Soviet Union possessed weapons in the 70s that were capable of flattening nations with far powerful armies in an outright war than Afghanistan had, nevermind about now. It's even arguable though if the US ever wanted to win the war in Afghanistan, as a lot of the critics of US say keeping the war running in Afghanistan was beneficial to its military industrial complex. Just surviving after expelling the conquerors is not a sign of victory. The sign of good empire is its ability to defend itself from invasions and not expel them after decades. The Afghans don't have to look anywhere except to their east. Pakistan was a region where the Afghans generally held military superiority over through the middle ages. Yet, despite Afghanistan remaining largely independent for a long time unlike Pakistan, India or Bangladesh, Pakistan has managed to develop a modern army capable of defending itself from invasions and have achieved nuclear capabilities.

Empires always run in cycles and those empires that were powerful in the middle ages are largely irrelevant now. Babur came from what is present day Uzbekistan but it's an inconsequential country now in the larger scheme of things and certainly has a much weaker army than India and Pakistan (not sure about Bangladesh). The Mongols repeatedly routed the Chinese in the middle ages but are decades behind the Chinese in development, technological and military prowess while Mongolia is a glorified nomadic land. Afghanistan's real success would come if they're able to build (rebuild) their empire and become powerful enough to at least defend itself from outside conquests like their neighbours Pakistan and Iran.

This is a poor and lazy argument.

Of course Nato could of nuked all of Afghanistan but anyone who survives would still continue to resist. A nuclear attack would also risk a wider nuclear war, Russia and Pakistan wouldnt simply allow Afghanistan be nuked as the after effects would hurt their lands too.

Conquering is when you control the nation and its inhabitants. Afghans have always resisted and will always continue doing so.

I find it strange Indian posters are running away from the topic of Indian boots on Afghan ground. Instead looking for reasons to suggest Nato invaders havent lost this war and havent lost it badly.

A war has an objective, aim or goal. The aim was to take out the Taliban , control the lands so new attacks cant be launched. Taliban are stronger than ever, most of Afghanistan is soley in their hands.

Indian posters know their army would be easy prey for the resistance. This is the same army which had over 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir, a people who really dont resist with violence.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is a poor and lazy argument.

Of course Nato could of nuked all of Afghanistan but anyone who survives would still continue to resist. A nuclear attack would also risk a wider nuclear war, Russia and Pakistan wouldnt simply allow Afghanistan be nuked as the after effects would hurt their lands too.

Conquering is when you control the nation and its inhabitants. Afghans have always resisted and will always continue doing so.

I find it strange Indian posters are running away from the topic of Indian boots on Afghan ground. Instead looking for reasons to suggest Nato invaders havent lost this war and havent lost it badly.

A war has an objective, aim or goal. The aim was to take out the Taliban , control the lands so new attacks cant be launched. Taliban are stronger than ever, most of Afghanistan is soley in their hands.

Indian posters know their army would be easy prey for the resistance. This is the same army which had over 500,000 soldiers in Kashmir, a people who really dont resist with violence.

I was trying to give [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] the benefit of the doubt that he was actually looking at the ground realities of the conflict, but the further the debate progressed, it started going in weird directions of how the Pashtuns lost Peshawar to marathas, and then after that to Punjabis. I don't know if he is maybe a Bengali maratha and this is why the discussion is going in this direction. Frankly I never heard about marathas prior to coming on these boards, but I guess that is because we see history through British eyes, and they had only experience of fierce resistance from the Pakistan/Afghan regions.

 

[Napa]

I was trying to give [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] the benefit of the doubt that he was actually looking at the ground realities of the conflict, but the further the debate progressed, it started going in weird directions of how the Pashtuns lost Peshawar to marathas, and then after that to Punjabis. I don't know if he is maybe a Bengali maratha and this is why the discussion is going in this direction. Frankly I never heard about marathas prior to coming on these boards, but I guess that is because we see history through British eyes, and they had only experience of fierce resistance from the Pakistan/Afghan regions.

Of course, India would not do a stupid thing like put boots on the ground in Afghanistan. There is no benefit in getting your soldiers killed in a foreign land without a clear exit strategy. All it achieves is that your Army ends up killing a lot of foreigners while suffering some casualties, it is a lose-lose situation.

The Indian Army would crush the Taliban quickly, but after that what? The would face a guerrilla movement which they could not end because they cannot fight an "uncivilized war" like Saddam, Hitler or Genghis would. That is why the US is now leaving Afghanistan.

Last Indian leader to have done a foreign intervention was Rajiv Gandhi in SL, but he was a bit of a fool. Fortunately Modi is much smarter.

I mentioned the Marathas in reference to the alleged invincibility of the Afghans. The reason you haven't heard of the Marathas is because your history education has been poor and biased, but that is understandable. At its peak, the Maratha Empire ruled most of Pakistan including Lahore, Multan, Hyderabad etc., before losing out to the East India Company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

No more replies unless I see something intelligent to reply to.

 

[Varun]

Once the US leaves, we will find out how strong the Taliban are. I assume that the US will arm the former Northern Alliance to resist the Taliban.

I've heard this for like 20 years.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I meant that if the Afghans were really invincible as some posters here believe, they would have taken Peshawar (their former winter capital) back. Yes, I think when people say invincible Afghans they are thinking of the Pashtuns.

Peshawar was fringe to empires like the Maratha Empire whose capital was in Pune, 2,000 kms from Peshawar, yet the Afghans lost Peshawar to Marathas. Though they recovered it, they lost it permanently to the Sikhs, who passed it on the British.

Given a choice, Peshawar would probably have returned to Afghanistan in 1947. But the British gave them the choice of joining either Pakistan or India. If they had the choice of joining Afghanistan or the Pashtun areas becoming an independent country, that would likely have won.

Lol at bringing in Maratha. A footnote in history who’s prestige and strength improves every decade in Hindu Indians search for heroes. This empires entire peak lasted less than most Mughal emperor reigns..

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Lol at bringing in Maratha. A footnote in history who’s prestige and strength improves every decade in Hindu Indians search for heroes. This empires entire peak lasted less than most Mughal emperor reigns..

Yes the inferiority complex often leads indians to dig out these great Indian empires, that most people are not even aware of. Maratha empire, Sikh empire and now a days the ‘CEO empire’ )

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Of course, India would not do a stupid thing like put boots on the ground in Afghanistan. There is no benefit in getting your soldiers killed in a foreign land without a clear exit strategy. All it achieves is that your Army ends up killing a lot of foreigners while suffering some casualties, it is a lose-lose situation.

The Indian Army would crush the Taliban quickly, but after that what? The would face a guerrilla movement which they could not end because they cannot fight an "uncivilized war" like Saddam, Hitler or Genghis would. That is why the US is now leaving Afghanistan.

Last Indian leader to have done a foreign intervention was Rajiv Gandhi in SL, but he was a bit of a fool. Fortunately Modi is much smarter.

I mentioned the Marathas in reference to the alleged invincibility of the Afghans. The reason you haven't heard of the Marathas is because your history education has been poor and biased, but that is understandable. At its peak, the Maratha Empire ruled most of Pakistan including Lahore, Multan, Hyderabad etc., before losing out to the East India Company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

No more replies unless I see something intelligent to reply to.

Let me guess...they are all made up of maratha descendents, who must have skipped a few generations during Mughal and British rule. )

 

[Napa]

Let me guess...they are all made up of maratha descendents, who must have skipped a few generations during Mughal and British rule. )

Marathas didn't skip the Mughal rule. Auranzeb started the Deccan War to conquer the Marathas and failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal–Maratha_Wars#Aftermath_of_the_war

Instead, 12 years after Auranzeb's death the Sayyid brothers with the help of a Maratha army defeated the Mughal emperor Farrukhsiyar, then blinded and killed him. The Marathas were pretty much the cause of the end of the Mughal Empire. The reason most people do not know of the Mughal Emperors after Auranzeb is that the Marathas had reduced the Empire to a weakling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrukhsiyar

History can be quite informative if studied without bias.

 

[Cyclotron]

After waging wars for 25 years ,still Deccan remained the dream of so called 'greatest mughal emperor' Aurangzeb even after having superiority in arms and personnel even one major win they got was under the leadership of rajput subordinate.even When Marathas were left with no leader whole mughal army took more than 6 months to conquer a fort.

 

[ahmedzee]

Only one purpose india has in Afghanistan is to run its ttp proxies to destabilize pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Marathas didn't skip the Mughal rule. Auranzeb started the Deccan War to conquer the Marathas and failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal–Maratha_Wars#Aftermath_of_the_war

Instead, 12 years after Auranzeb's death the Sayyid brothers with the help of a Maratha army defeated the Mughal emperor Farrukhsiyar, then blinded and killed him. The Marathas were pretty much the cause of the end of the Mughal Empire. The reason most people do not know of the Mughal Emperors after Auranzeb is that the Marathas had reduced the Empire to a weakling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrukhsiyar

History can be quite informative if studied without bias.

Would it be fair to say that maratha roots were southern India and their power base was in that area? To talk about them confronting Afghans on the battle field almost seems as redundant today as Pakistan attempting to align with East Pakistan when that country actually was culturally more closely related to south India...and marathas for all I know.

In any case, to get back on topic, what would be the point of India interfering in Afghanistan when they still have the small matter of Pakistan lodged between both countries?

 

[Cyclotron]

Would it be fair to say that maratha roots were southern India and their power base was in that area? To talk about them confronting Afghans on the battle field almost seems as redundant today as Pakistan attempting to align with East Pakistan when that country actually was culturally more closely related to south India...and marathas for all I know.

In any case, to get back on topic, what would be the point of India interfering in Afghanistan when they still have the small matter of Pakistan lodged between both countries?

Marathas were not in large numbers hence instead of establishing their own empire,they made the ruler of conquered states as vassal and forced them to pay indemnity bond.so they never really ruled India.
But how is Bengal culturally related to southern India?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Marathas were not in large numbers hence instead of establishing their own empire,they made the ruler of conquered states as vassal and forced them to pay indemnity bond.so they never really ruled India.
But how is Bengal culturally related to southern India?

They are both south of Pakistan and even further south of Afghanistan, so I would imagine culturally Bengal is going to be closer to marathaland than Pakistan or Afghanistan, e.g. language, food, etc.

 

[Napa]

Would it be fair to say that maratha roots were southern India and their power base was in that area? To talk about them confronting Afghans on the battle field almost seems as redundant today as Pakistan attempting to align with East Pakistan when that country actually was culturally more closely related to south India...and marathas for all I know.

Marathas are regarded as Central or West Indians, rather than Southern Indians. Their Empire extended so far away from their capital in Pune, that they at one point captured Peshawar which was 2,000 miles away. The point is that the Afghans serially lost their winter capital to the Marathas, the Sikhs and the Brits. When the Brits left, they did not give the Pashtuns in the Peshawar region the option of joining with the brethren in Afghanistan, and it is quite possible that is how they would have chosen.

In any case, to get back on topic, what would be the point of India interfering in Afghanistan when they still have the small matter of Pakistan lodged between both countries?

Even less point for Pakistan to be interfering in Afghanistan without first fixing its own economy. Unfortunately the wretched state of relations between Pakistan and India means that they see it as a zero-sum game. Bad for Pakistan is good for India and vice versa.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Marathas are regarded as Central or West Indians, rather than Southern Indians. Their Empire extended so far away from their capital in Pune, that they at one point captured Peshawar which was 2,000 miles away. The point is that the Afghans serially lost their winter capital to the Marathas, the Sikhs and the Brits. When the Brits left, they did not give the Pashtuns in the Peshawar region the option of joining with the brethren in Afghanistan, and it is quite possible that is how they would have chosen.

You can hardly call Marathas rulers of Peshawar though if that rule didn’t even last a year. Also at some point every empire loses their major city so Afghans losing Peshawar at some point in history is obviously always going to happen. These same Marathas barely ruled their hone base for a few generations only; let alone areas outside that.

The Marathas empire has little relevance outside Maharashtra and parts of central India.

A way to see influence of an empire over a region is what’s their legacy and remnants today.

You would find Mughal architecture and cuisine across most of India. You would be hard pressed to find signs of Maratha influence in Delhi let alone Peshawar.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Marathas are regarded as Central or West Indians, rather than Southern Indians. Their Empire extended so far away from their capital in Pune, that they at one point captured Peshawar which was 2,000 miles away. The point is that the Afghans serially lost their winter capital to the Marathas, the Sikhs and the Brits. When the Brits left, they did not give the Pashtuns in the Peshawar region the option of joining with the brethren in Afghanistan, and it is quite possible that is how they would have chosen.



Even less point for Pakistan to be interfering in Afghanistan without first fixing its own economy. Unfortunately the wretched state of relations between Pakistan and India means that they see it as a zero-sum game. Bad for Pakistan is good for India and vice versa.

I seem to be repeating myself here, but Pakistan is not interfering in Afghanistan, with a thousand mile border between the two countries and a shared ethnic population of Pashtuns, the two countries are literally intertwined. It is India with it's far removed dreams of reviving hindu rule from Maharashtra who are interfering. They should mind their own business and fix the issues closer to home.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

You can hardly call Marathas rulers of Peshawar though if that rule didn’t even last a year. Also at some point every empire loses their major city so Afghans losing Peshawar at some point in history is obviously always going to happen. These same Marathas barely ruled their hone base for a few generations only; let alone areas outside that.

The Marathas empire has little relevance outside Maharashtra and parts of central India.

A way to see influence of an empire over a region is what’s their legacy and remnants today.

You would find Mughal architecture and cuisine across most of India. You would be hard pressed to find signs of Maratha influence in Delhi let alone Peshawar.

“Rule didnt even last a year” )

Aur Baatein dekho. The hinduism and its influence gradually shrank from Afghanistan and Indonesia to modern day india. Aur yahan Bhakts Maratha “empire” ko le k chest thumping karnay aa rahay hain. Height of delusion.

 

[Napa]

You can hardly call Marathas rulers of Peshawar though if that rule didn’t even last a year. Also at some point every empire loses their major city so Afghans losing Peshawar at some point in history is obviously always going to happen. These same Marathas barely ruled their hone base for a few generations only; let alone areas outside that.

What I said was that the Afghans lost their winter capital Peshawar to the Marathas, then the Sikhs, then the Brits, before finally having it end up with Pakistan due to a referendum whose terms were decided by the Brits. Not quite the invincible Afghans that some people believe them to be.

The Marathas empire has little relevance outside Maharashtra and parts of central India.

A way to see influence of an empire over a region is what’s their legacy and remnants today.

You would find Mughal architecture and cuisine across most of India. You would be hard pressed to find signs of Maratha influence in Delhi let alone Peshawar.

Cuisine and architecture are minor parts of culture. For me more important parts of culture are 1) whether the government can provide peace and prosperity for the people and 2) whether the government provide support for advancements in science, technology and the arts.

Architecture as a part of arts is somewhat important, though generally architectural projects were consumed enormous resources while the people went hungry. Mentioning cuisine as a cultural achievement is rather sad as it shows the lack of something more significant like science.

This thread has become argumentative and boring, I am out.

 

[Cyclotron]

“Rule didnt even last a year” )

Aur Baatein dekho. The hinduism and its influence gradually shrank from Afghanistan and Indonesia to modern day india. Aur yahan Bhakts Maratha “empire” ko le k chest thumping karnay aa rahay hain. Height of delusion.

I think Maratha ruled for 2 years in Peshawar.They lost control over Punjab because Marathas were few in number and it was 2000 km far from their capital.Marathas did not have any unified leader or emperor there were ego clashes happening inside the camp and many Maratha chief wanted their own independent state and there were animosity between any 2 Maratha states and never supported each other this happened after shahuji Maharaj was left with no heir and power came in hand of prime minister peshwas Marathaswas close to reaching its zenith at the helm of bajirao but he passed away due to untimely death.After that some peshwas were able leader but passed away in very young age and it caused instability hence Maratha state gained more sovereignty.morever they were accompanied with 2 lakhs camper who were going for holy pilgrimage hence the Marathas light cavalry was not as mobile as it was popular for.Durrani had gained the support of mughals,nawab of Oudh and rohillas in the name of religion but Marathas were not able to gain the support of Hindu kingdom and morever so because they raided other kingdom and imposed heavy taxes on rajput and jaat kings hence marathas themselves were reason for alienating themselves from other northern kingdoms and Marathas were new to Northern India terrain but still they were on verge of Victory and destroyed afghan camp early in battle but soon their leader Bhau got shot in his head and panic ensued in the camp and Maratha withered after attacks from all end.And after that all campers were butchered and some soldiers of independent Maratha state but part of Maratha confederation fled and peshwa balaji Rao who was arriving in the battle with reserve forces died after few months after hearing the news of debacle but abdali of durrani empire sent an apology letter to Marathas and appealing him for peace and left all place with Marathas except region which was earlier in his possession and left India at earliest.

 

[Cyclotron]

“Rule didnt even last a year” )

Aur Baatein dekho. The hinduism and its influence gradually shrank from Afghanistan and Indonesia to modern day india. Aur yahan Bhakts Maratha “empire” ko le k chest thumping karnay aa rahay hain. Height of delusion.

The Marathas fought with the greatest valour which was beyond the capacity of other races... These dauntless blood-shedders did not fall short in fighting and doing glorious deeds.... Suddenly the breeze of victory began to blow... and the wretched Deccanis suffered defeat:ahmad Shah abdali to madho Singh of Jaipur in the letter to his ally

 

[cricketjoshila]

What I said was that the Afghans lost their winter capital Peshawar to the Marathas, then the Sikhs, then the Brits, before finally having it end up with Pakistan due to a referendum whose terms were decided by the Brits. Not quite the invincible Afghans that some people believe them to be.



Cuisine and architecture are minor parts of culture. For me more important parts of culture are 1) whether the government can provide peace and prosperity for the people and 2) whether the government provide support for advancements in science, technology and the arts.

Architecture as a part of arts is somewhat important, though generally architectural projects were consumed enormous resources while the people went hungry. Mentioning cuisine as a cultural achievement is rather sad as it shows the lack of something more significant like science.

This thread has become argumentative and boring, I am out.

Afghans invincible? Lol. They just don the jersey of their conqueror.

They were conquered by Alexander. Then Mauryas then Kushans then Hindushahis then by the Muslim invaders.

Their culture and religion changed with who conquered and ruled them.

Ofcourse few PPers will try to portray it otherwise for obvious reasons.

 

[Cyclotron]

Afghans invincible? Lol. They just don the jersey of their conqueror.

They were conquered by Alexander. Then Mauryas then Kushans then Hindushahis then by the Muslim invaders.

Their culture and religion changed with who conquered and ruled them.

Ofcourse few PPers will try to portray it otherwise for obvious reasons.

I was amused to hear that afghans were invincible but if I would have stated truth then few could have got hurt.
But I think hindushahi were native to gandhara valley and kabul was their capital

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think Maratha ruled for 2 years in Peshawar.They lost control over Punjab because Marathas were few in number and it was 2000 km far from their capital.

This is often a point ignored about the 1971 war which Indians like to brag about, Pakistan army was stranded thousands of miles from home and caught on the hop by sneaky intervention of India.

But history aside, this is still a good reason for India to stop interfering in Afghanistan and concentrate on matters closer to home. I can tell you now, hindutva dreams of claiming Afghanistan are pie in the sky. They could not even take back Pakistan or Bangladesh. Give it a rest.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

US is just paying lip-service to make the Indians happy. Fact is they have nothing to offer to this peace deal because they have no relationship with the Taliban, who despise them.

India has as about much stroke in Afghanistan as Pakistan has in Nepal or Maldives. The real power lies with the Taliban who consider India to be duplicitous abettors of the Kabul regime. India foolishly placed all its eggs in the American basket without having the vision or the foresight to understand Afghanistan and how the Taliban were always going to win that forever war.

Pakistan despite being repeatedly threatened and abused by the US and being their 'ally' never fully gave up their support of the Taliban because Pakistan were aware of the ground realities.

India will continue to create mischief for Pakistan by backing terrorist groups in Afghanistan but I don't expect them to have any real leverage in Afghanistan in the future. If anything, Pakistan will pressurize the Taliban to double down on their consulates that double as RAW safe houses.