[VIDEO] Learnt A Lesson 'Never Ever Underestimate India, Says Justin Langer

[MenInG]

Outplayed by an inexperienced and injury-plagued India, a shocked Australia head coach Justin Langer on Tuesday said one massive lesson that he has learnt from the setback is to "never ever, ever underestimate" the "really tough" players from that country.

A visibly shaken Langer lauded India for the lion-hearted effort to win the Border-Gavaskar Trophy 2-1 despite playing with a second-string side, especially after being decimated inside three days in the series-opener in Adelaide. That loss included India's lowest-ever Test score of 36 in the second innings.

"It was an incredible Test series and in the end there is always a winner or a loser. Today Test cricket is the winner. It's gonna hurt us big time. India deserved full credit. They have been outstanding but we have learnt lessons from it," Langer told Channel 7.

"First, you can never take anything for granted, second never ever, ever underestimate the Indians. There are 1.5 billions Indians and if you play in that first eleven you got to be really tough, don't you?"

Langer said the fightback after the Adelaide debacle was nothing short of remarkable especially after injury-forced ouster of big players like Jasprit Bumrah and Ravindra Jadeja.

India found new stars such as Shubman Gill, Washington Sundar, Shardul Thakur and Mohammed Siraj among others who surprised the Aussies with their never-say-die spirit.

"I can't compliment India enough. They haven't gone away after that first Test match which we won in three days, bowled them out for 30 odd. For them to fight back like they did is amazing, credit to them. The big lesson for us is that you can't take anything for granted. India never got away," he said.

The Indian team showed a never-seen-before zeal to retain the coveted trophy with a historic three-wicket win over Australia in the fourth and final Test here, successfully chasing a 328-run target.

Talented Rishabh Pant (89 not out off 138 balls) showcased his breathtaking strokeplay to secure the win for the visitors, thereby ending Australia's 32-year-old unbeaten run at the 'Fortress Gabba'.

"It was an amazing effort. (Rishabh) Pant's innings somewhat reminded me of Ben Stokes' innings in Headingley actually. He came in, he was almost fearless and he will be lauded because of it. It was an unbelievable innings," Langer said in his praise of the Indian wicket-keeper batsman.

"I thought young (Shubman) Gill (91) batted very well. Their young bowling attack kept us under pressure throughout the match and as I said India deserve full credit."

Langer also commended his own team's bowling attack for its tireless effort in the series, albeit in a losing cause.

"...from our point of view, we had the same four bowlers (Pat Cummins, Josh Hazlewood, Nathan Lyon and Mitchell Starc) who have gone hard, they have stood up and they have worked so hard but unfortunately we didn't get over the line today.

"I am proud of the way those four guys fought so hard," he signed off.

https://www.outlookindia.com/websit...underestimate-india-says-justin-langer/371114

 

[Savak]

No way will Cricket Australia brush this under the carpet and allow the Australian coaching staff and players to get away with this. There will be consequences

 

[Rana]

More like never overestimate yourself at home

 

[Ab Fan]

Rishabh Pant and Shubhman Gill are superstars now. They have helped their team win a test match and a test series in Australia.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You would have to be an idiot to underestimate them in the first place. But then again arrogance is nothing uncommon among Australian cricketers and ex-cricketers

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

No way will Cricket Australia brush this under the carpet and allow the Australian coaching staff and players to get away with this. There will be consequences

Heads should roll. Beginning with Paine as captain.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The most hilarious moment of the series ended up being Paine telling Ashwin: "Can't wait till you get to the Gabba, Ash" "woo ooh."

The one thing you could respect about Australians is that they could back up their sledging with performances. But Paine couldn't even do that.

 

[MenInG]

Heads should roll. Beginning with Paine as captain.

Cant see him staying and also Langer's role in this needs to be questioned.

 

[Geil]

What I could understand from Langer comments are that they really took things for granted especially the bowlers and where blown away from the fight back from Indian batsmen and were simply not ready and also had no solution once they witnessed the fight back especially at sydney

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Cant see him staying and also Langer's role in this needs to be questioned.

Best guy to captain Australia is Steve Smith, by not making him captain Australia is only doing themselves a disservice.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Paine will quit and Langer will be out too very soon. Australia will make changes for the home Ashes of 2021.

Doubt Marcus Harris Green etc will last long too. Perhaps a comeback for Khwaja and even Mitch Marsh.

Gillespie could replace Langer as coach but I really cant think of a captaincy candidate.

 

[Savak]

Australia may have been over confident after Adellaide and underestimated India in Melbourne, but after that they knew they were facing a really determined opponent. What stopped, prevented Australia from responding and adapting in Sydney and Brisbane?

Poor excuses and given the high performance culture and standards in Cricket Australia after every major defeat, I don't expect Langer to escape scrutiny over this debacle

 

[JaDed]

While thats fine for MCG or even Sydney but absolutely makes no sense by the time your reached your fortress.

 

[PakHammer]

Aussies deserved it for Smith's antics in Sydney and Paine's sledging when him as test player has not got much to back that up. India did well, I thought their last test series win in Australia was tainted as the Aussies were without Smith and Warner. But they proved me wrong with this series win.

 

[Saj]

Langer has to take a fair share of the blame.

Paine was poor as skipper, but Langer was in on some of the tactics and decisions too.

CA will not take this lying down.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Perfect opportunity to kick Paine out.

 

[Yk313]

Wait, did he just say that (going forward) they would never underestimate IND?

The implication that stems from this admission should have come with a signed and dated resignation letter.

 

[Idreamofcricket]

I watched how Cummins bowled to Pujara.. I saw how Hazelwood bowled to Pujara and others.. I saw the angry white man looking down on the brown skinned **** with disdain and scorn... But I saw the fearlessness in that "****'s" eyes.. eyes filled with resolve of steel.. body hammered and bruised.. over and over.. yet unflinching about continuing on and fighting for his team.... It was almost like watching the Indians being hammered by Britishers during the freedom struggle..

No words can describe this amount of courage and valor.. Hats off.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Langer should have learnt this lesson 20 years ago, back in 2001 when India beat that invincible Aus side with Mcgrath, Warne, Langer etc were handed a series defeat of 2-1...

 

[karthikc]

Who would you have left out?': Langer defends selections after Starc fade out

Justin Langer has defended Australia's decision to stick with the same attack through the series after Mitchell Starc ran out of puff as India pulled off a stunning win at the Gabba.

Starc's inability to finish off the series exposed Australia's reliance on its vaunted pace trio – and there could be implications for the side's Ashes defence next season.

Selectors have understandably maintained the faith in the Big Three of Starc, Pat Cummins and Josh Hazlewood but, given their weariness in a four-Test series, questions will be asked as to whether they can get through all five of an Ashes campaign.

Though captain Tim Paine defended Starc's durability in the wake of the shattering loss, there is mounting evidence the time has come for selectors to reassess how best to deploy the one-time golden arm for maximum impact.

With the tank running almost empty after four Tests in five weeks, a sore and weary Starc was found wanting in Australia's unsuccessful bid for victory.

The left-arm speedster was the least used of the frontline quicks and largely a spectator when the game was up for grabs in the afternoon sessions, smashed out of the attack by Shubman Gill after a 20-run over.

After a strong start to the series, Mitchell Starc's form tapered.


He bowled just four more overs and was overlooked for the second new ball, finishing with the unflattering figures of 0-75 from 16 overs.

Starc's form tapered through the series – and not for the first time in his decorated career. His record is consistent of a player who starts with a bang but runs out of steam, averaging 24 and 25 in the first and second Tests compared to 37 and 53 in fourth and fifth Tests. Hazlewood's numbers are similar though he found the line strongly.

Starc failed to play out the 2017 series against India due to a foot injury and missed the final game of the 2018 tour of South Africa with a calf issue related to landing on uneven footmarks.

So concerned was he by the holes on the last day at the Gabba, Starc at one point delivered the ball from well back in the crease so as to avoid landing in the deeper rough. Turning 31 later this month, Starc can only expect his injury niggles to become more of an issue.

Though entering the veteran stage of his career, Starc remains integral to the Test side but his inability to stay the course may force selectors to adopt a horses for courses approach with him.

Langer is adamant Australia had not erred in not making any changes to its attack, even if a key factor in Australia's successful Ashes defence in 2019 was its preparedness to rotate their quicks depending on the conditions. Only Cummins played every Test.

"I'm really proud of the fact that those four guys stood up this whole series," Langer said on ABC Grandstand."It would've been a brave man coming in to this Gabba Test match and not select those four bowlers. I mean, would you have?"

Paine defended Starc's performance, saying he remained a vital cog in the Test side.

"I'm not sure about his body. There might be a few little things going on," Paine said. "They're very rarely 100 per cent.

"We're very lucky they're so durable and can get through so many Tests for us. Starcy is someone who, the way he bowls, he's going to come in for some criticism.

"When he's on, he's one of the great bowlers you'll see, at times he doesn't quite get it right. When that's the case it doesn't look great.

 

[shamaan]

starc has been trash paine has been trash

 

[MenInG]

The Australia cricket team had a summer they would like to forget, as a full strength team were beaten 2-1 by an Indian side that were constantly ravaged by injuries. The series loss, that included a first Test loss at The Gabba in Brisbane in nearly 33 years, has increased the levels of scrutiny around the players as well as the coaching staff. Now it turns out that, in a somewhat bizarre incident during the final Test in Brisbane, that Australia coach Justin Langer had barred a player from carrying a toasted sandwich in his pocket to have as a snack on the field.

Given the incident that took place at Newlands in 2018, telling a player to not have anything in his pockets would appear to be good avice. It seemingly did not go down well with the player but despite that, Langer degended the move by saying the optics around it were far from idea.

"You’re walking on against India, we’re trying to win a Test match and one of our players walks on with a toasted sandwich in his hand. I spoke to [the player] about it at length yesterday. I said, ‘How do you reckon it looks, mate?’ Is that not something I should say," Langer told The Sydney Morning Herald.

However, there are bigger issues at play. The Herald report states that a number of players have grown tired of Langer's intense style of coaching that borders on micromanaging.

One of the things that also allgedly irked players was the fact that fast bowlers were bombarded with statistics during the lunch breaks at The Gabba. Langer dismissed the idea of him talking to bowlers using stats.

"It’s actually the opposite of what happens. I never talk about statistics to the bowlers, ever. I don’t go to any of the bowlers’ meetings. That’s what the bowlers’ coach is meant to be doing.

"I don’t do any of that. I never, ever, ever speak to any of the bowlers about any of that sort of stuff. And the learnings of the last few months are I should start looking at that more."

Australia's next assignment will see them go on a tour to South Africa for a three-Test series.

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/...-onto-field-during-brisbane-test-3363491.html

 

[Varun]

The most hilarious moment of the series ended up being Paine telling Ashwin: "Can't wait till you get to the Gabba, Ash" "woo ooh."

The one thing you could respect about Australians is that they could back up their sledging with performances. But Paine couldn't even do that.

That was pure cringe when I heard it, and still is now.

Imagine somebody in our full strength team going - "Hey Nathan! You're doing well in Mumbai and Ahmedabad but can't wait to see how good you bat at Hyderabad buddy!"

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That was pure cringe when I heard it, and still is now.

Imagine somebody in our full strength team going - "Hey Nathan! You're doing well in Mumbai and Ahmedabad but can't wait to see how good you bat at Hyderabad buddy!"

Aussie sledging standards have seriously fallen off a cliff under Paine...

 

[MP2011]

Aussie sledging standards have seriously fallen off a cliff under Paine...

Under Steve Waugh and Ponting, they were out and out abusive towards opposition players. So I prefer this version under Paine.

 

[mastimasti]

This is a strange remark...why would any professional outfit underestimate an opponent, especially one ranked top 3 in all formats and the best visiting side Australia will face all season?

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

This is a strange remark...why would any professional outfit underestimate an opponent, especially one ranked top 3 in all formats and the best visiting side Australia will face all season?

Because they lost all their best players during the course of the series.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Under Steve Waugh and Ponting, they were out and out abusive towards opposition players. So I prefer this version under Paine.

True. Under Clarke too. But not always. There was some good sledging in between there as well.

 

[mastimasti]

Because they lost all their best players during the course of the series.

India? I do not think that they lost ALL their best players. Regardless, there should never be any underestimation.

 

[Junaids]

Langer has to take a fair share of the blame.

Paine was poor as skipper, but Langer was in on some of the tactics and decisions too.

CA will not take this lying down.

I don't understand in what way Australia "underestimated" India.

The problem is that Australia is an elderly team with multiple weak links, specifically:

1. Labuschagne, Warner and Smith are the only Test class batsmen.
2. The fourth seamer (all-rounder) took 0 wickets in 4 Tests because his bowling is not good enough.
3. The off-spinner (Lyon) is over-rated and after 100 Tests his average (32.12) is significantly WORSE than Yasir Shah's (30.50) and isn't that much better than Shadab Khan's (36.64).
4. Three of the four main bowlers are 30 or older, and one of them - Mitchell Starc - had a stellar career streak from 2016 until the Sandpaper exposure in March 2018, but apart from that he has had a fairly mediocre 9 year long Test career.

OPENER 2
BATSMAN AT 5
ALL-ROUNDER AT 6
OPENING BOWLER AT 9
OFF-SPINNER AT 10

That makes 5 weak links in an 11 man team. That's why they lost - not because they didn't try hard enough or get captained well enough.

 

[BreadPakoda]

his average (32.12) is significantly WORSE than Yasir Shah's (30.50) and isn't that much better than Shadab Khan's (36.64).

I absolutely love how you try to analyze data, brother [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

32.12 is significantly WORSE than 30.50 (difference of 1.62)

and not much better than 36.64 (difference of 4.52)

 

[Dingolfy]

I don't understand in what way Australia "underestimated" India.

The problem is that Australia is an elderly team with multiple weak links, specifically:

1. Labuschagne, Warner and Smith are the only Test class batsmen.
2. The fourth seamer (all-rounder) took 0 wickets in 4 Tests because his bowling is not good enough.
3. The off-spinner (Lyon) is over-rated and after 100 Tests his average (32.12) is significantly WORSE than Yasir Shah's (30.50) and isn't that much better than Shadab Khan's (36.64).
4. Three of the four main bowlers are 30 or older, and one of them - Mitchell Starc - had a stellar career streak from 2016 until the Sandpaper exposure in March 2018, but apart from that he has had a fairly mediocre 9 year long Test career.

OPENER 2
BATSMAN AT 5
ALL-ROUNDER AT 6
OPENING BOWLER AT 9
OFF-SPINNER AT 10

That makes 5 weak links in an 11 man team. That's why they lost - not because they didn't try hard enough or get captained well enough.

Mitchell Johnson was 32 years old when he ran through England in 2013-2014 Ashes. And the same ‘elderly’ team smoked Newzealand and Pakistan before this series.

 

[Junaids]

I absolutely love how you try to analyze data, [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

32.12 is significantly WORSE than 30.50 (difference of 1.62)

and not much better than 36.64 (difference of 4.52)

I don't think any of them are great.

Ashwin averages 27.70
Jadeja averages 24.32
Swann averaged 29.96

Shadab Khan averages 36.64.... but also 33.33 with the bat.
Daniel Vettori averaged 34.36 ... but also 30.00 with the bat.
Mitchell Santner averages 43.97 ... but also 26 with the bat.

This is largely my point.

If a spin bowler can average under 30 with the ball, by all means pick him as a specialist spinner.

But if he is averaging the wrong side of 30 with the ball, then think carefully about whether your team would benefit more from a fourth quick instead, with a spinner like Vettori or Shadab used instead who is an inferior bowler but roughly 80% of a specialist batsman too.

 

[Junaids]

Mitchell Johnson was 32 years old when he ran through England in 2013-2014 Ashes. And the same ‘elderly’ team smoked Newzealand and Pakistan before this series.

That's my whole point. It didn't.

The team that "smoked" New Zealand and Pakistan had:

3 quicks in their twenties
1 older spinner.

The team that lost to India had:

1 quick in his twenties
2 quicks in their thirties
1 older spinner.

It doesn't matter that they are the same people. Time never stands still for sports teams. Spain won Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. They took the same team to the 2014 World Cup, lost their first game 5-1 to the Netherlands and five days later they were already eliminated, by losing to Chile.

It was the same team of Pique and Jordi Alba and Xavi and Iniesta. But they had all passed into their thirties now.

 

[Hitman]

I don't think any of them are great.

Ashwin averages 27.70
Jadeja averages 24.32
Swann averaged 29.96

Shadab Khan averages 36.64.... but also 33.33 with the bat.
Daniel Vettori averaged 34.36 ... but also 30.00 with the bat.
Mitchell Santner averages 43.97 ... but also 26 with the bat.

This is largely my point.

If a spin bowler can average under 30 with the ball, by all means pick him as a specialist spinner.

But if he is averaging the wrong side of 30 with the ball, then think carefully about whether your team would benefit more from a fourth quick instead, with a spinner like Vettori or Shadab used instead who is an inferior bowler but roughly 80% of a specialist batsman too.

Ashwin averages 27.70 with the bat, not the ball. With the ball, he averages 25.53

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ashwin averages 27.70

With the bat. His bowling average is 25.5, good enough since he has played higher % of games away from home compared to Jadeja. That stat may change as Jadeja's batting has improved so much and he will get preference overseas.

Agree with the gist of your post, applies especially for spinners in SENA. Yasir's continuous selection in SENA baffles me, Pak will be so much better served with an all-rounder.

 

[Junaids]

Ashwin averages 27.70 with the bat, not the ball. With the ball, he averages 25.53

EVEN BETTER!

I am taking India's side in this thread.

I think India's young players are better than Australia's veteran army of good but ageing players sprinkled with bad players (Burns, Wade, Green, Head, Starc, Lyon in this series.)

Exhibit A for me is "Washington Sundar versus Nathan Lyon".

Sundar played 1 Test.

He scored 62 and 22 and he took 1-80 and 3-89.

In the same Test, Lyon scored 24 and 13 and took 1-65 and 2-85.

Give me Washington Sundar any time over Nathan Lyon in Australia!

Exhibit B is "Mohammad Siraj versus Mitchell Starc."

Siraj took 1-77 and 5-73. Starc took 2-88 and 0-75.

People need to show India's next generation a little bit more respect. They didn't beat Australia because Australia underestimated them. They beat Australia in their own fortress because they are better than Australia.

 

[Napa]

3. The off-spinner (Lyon) is over-rated and after 100 Tests his average (32.12) is significantly WORSE than Yasir Shah's (30.50) and isn't that much better than Shadab Khan's (36.64).

Nice try. The thread is about a series played in Australia.

Lyon average 32.97 in Australia, and Shah averages 89.50!!!

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

It's well known that Australian pitches do not help spinners.

I absolutely love how you try to analyze data, brother [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

32.12 is significantly WORSE than 30.50 (difference of 1.62)

and not much better than 36.64 (difference of 4.52)

 

[Hitman]

Nice try. The thread is about a series played in Australia.

Lyon average 32.97 in Australia, and Shah averages 89.50!!!

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

It's well known that Australian pitches do not help spinners.

The man seriously has no shame. Even after been humiliated for outrageous statements over the past, he doesn't learn.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Again the underrating of Lyon

He is a legend, period. One bad series doesn't define him, before the series he was one of the main threats to us at par with Smith and Cummins, credit to our batting coach and players who planned and executed the gameplan perfectly. Lyon will continue to be a threat in the future, underestimate him at your own peril. Aussie selectors aren't fools having persisted with a finger spinner for 100 tests.

 

[Junaids]

Nice try. The thread is about a series played in Australia.

Lyon average 32.97 in Australia, and Shah averages 89.50!!!

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling

It's well known that Australian pitches do not help spinners.

But that's really my point.

Nathan Lyon has played 52 Tests in Australia and averages 32.97 runs per wicket there (and 12.23 with the bat).

James Pattinson has played 11 Tests in Australia and averages 21.87 runs per wicket there (and 35.00 with the bat).

I don't think Nathan Lyon is good enough to be worth a place as a specialist spinner in Australia when he keeps out of the team a guy like James Pattinson who is a much more effective bowler and is also almost an all-rounder.

 

[JattMaula]

But that's really my point.

Nathan Lyon has played 52 Tests in Australia and averages 32.97 runs per wicket there (and 12.23 with the bat).

James Pattinson has played 11 Tests in Australia and averages 21.87 runs per wicket there (and 35.00 with the bat).

I don't think Nathan Lyon is good enough to be worth a place as a specialist spinner in Australia when he keeps out of the team a guy like James Pattinson who is a much more effective bowler and is also almost an all-rounder.

Aussie pacers will literally break down if team plays 4 pacers and no spinner in Australia.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I don't think any of them are great.

Ashwin averages 27.70
Jadeja averages 24.32
Swann averaged 29.96

Shadab Khan averages 36.64.... but also 33.33 with the bat.
Daniel Vettori averaged 34.36 ... but also 30.00 with the bat.
Mitchell Santner averages 43.97 ... but also 26 with the bat.

This is largely my point.

If a spin bowler can average under 30 with the ball, by all means pick him as a specialist spinner.

But if he is averaging the wrong side of 30 with the ball, then think carefully about whether your team would benefit more from a fourth quick instead, with a spinner like Vettori or Shadab used instead who is an inferior bowler but roughly 80% of a specialist batsman too.

But Ashwin is 34.

He wasn't supposed to do well, with either bat or ball.

And Jadeja is 32.



#geriatrics

 

[Junaids]

Again the underrating of Lyon

He is a legend, period. One bad series doesn't define him, before the series he was one of the main threats to us at par with Smith and Cummins, credit to our batting coach and players who planned and executed the gameplan perfectly. Lyon will continue to be a threat in the future, underestimate him at your own peril. Aussie selectors aren't fools having persisted with a finger spinner for 100 tests.

It's not one bad series. It's his career.

Nathan Lyon has played 76 Tests in SENA. SEVENTY SIX!

And this is his record:

52 Tests in Australia - averages 32.97.
13 Tests in England - averages 31.62.
9 Tests in South Africa - averages 39.75

2 Tests in New Zealand - averages 22.60.

I am not disrespecting India. I am pointing out that they are better than Australia in part because Australia has a substandard spinner who can't bat.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

LOL Junaids back with his age brigade agenda. If only things were this simple...

 

[Junaids]

But Ashwin is 34.

He wasn't supposed to do well, with either bat or ball.

And Jadeja is 32.



#geriatrics

Yes - and India won thanks mainly to Gill, Pant, Siraj and Sundar!!!!!!

 

[Junaids]

Aussie pacers will literally break down if team plays 4 pacers and no spinner in Australia.

Is Cameron Green a genuine all-rounder?

Frankly, I'd send Maxwell to work with a decent spin bowling coach, then in Australia play with:

5. Cameron Green - as a specialist batsman.
6. Glenn Maxwell (part-time spinner) - Test batting average 26.07
7. Tim Paine - batting average 32.60
8. James Pattinson - batting average 26.60
9. Pat Cummins - batting average 16.46
10. Mitchell Starc - batting average 22.60
11. Josh Hazlewood

 

[mastermind_quad]

Yes - and India won thanks mainly to Gill, Pant, Siraj and Sundar!!!!!!

I am not agreeing with Junaid's view but at least these Indian kids puts some points in favour of Junaid's view regarding age.

They performed brilliantly.

 

[BaankeJi]

Yes - and India won thanks mainly to Gill, Pant, Siraj and Sundar!!!!!!

With all due respect, that is not correct. Ashwin and Jadeja played vital part too.

 

[JattMaula]

Is Cameron Green a genuine all-rounder?

Frankly, I'd send Maxwell to work with a decent spin bowling coach, then in Australia play with:

5. Cameron Green - as a specialist batsman.
6. Glenn Maxwell (part-time spinner) - Test batting average 26.07
7. Tim Paine - batting average 32.60
8. James Pattinson - batting average 26.60
9. Pat Cummins - batting average 16.46
10. Mitchell Starc - batting average 22.60
11. Josh Hazlewood

Aussies have big plans for green. They don't want to make him do donkey work this early n his career. He is perfect player for them if he works out. A Ben Stokes of their own.

 

[BreadPakoda]

With all due respect, that is not correct. Ashwin and Jadeja played vital part too.

Pujara and Rahane too. While younger players like Shaw and Agarwal consistently failed. But that doesn't suit the agenda.

 

[Ab Fan]

Aussies have big plans for green. They don't want to make him do donkey work this early n his career. He is perfect player for them if he works out. A Ben Stokes of their own.

His bowling is pretty awful. Good batsman though.

 

[Ab Fan]

Pujara and Rahane too. While younger players like Shaw and Agarwal consistently failed. But that doesn't suit the agenda.

It was a team performance.

In Melbourne test, our seniors stood up. Rahane, Bumrah, Ashwin and Jadeja were the standouts.

In Brisbane, youngsters did a great job. Pant, Gill, Siraj, Sundar and Thakur. Pujara played a key role in Sydney and Brisbane both.

All these guys played key part in the test.

 

[Napa]

But that's really my point.

No, that was not your point. Your point was that "The off-spinner (Lyon) is over-rated and after 100 Tests his average (32.12) is significantly WORSE than Yasir Shah's (30.50)". Australian pitches are not helpful to spinner, so comparing Lyon's overall average to Shah is misleading. I repeat Lyon (significantly WORSE according to you) averages 32.97 in Australia, while Shah averages 89.50.

Nathan Lyon has played 52 Tests in Australia and averages 32.97 runs per wicket there (and 12.23 with the bat).

James Pattinson has played 11 Tests in Australia and averages 21.87 runs per wicket there (and 35.00 with the bat).

I don't think Nathan Lyon is good enough to be worth a place as a specialist spinner in Australia when he keeps out of the team a guy like James Pattinson who is a much more effective bowler and is also almost an all-rounder.

If you think you can replace a spinner with a pacer, I am sorry but your cricketing analysis isn't great. As [MENTION=140266]JattMaula[/MENTION] says "Aussie pacers will literally break down if team plays 4 pacers and no spinner in Australia."

Lyon has played 99 innings in Australia and bowled 2,234.3 overs, that's about 22.4 overs per innings.

Pattison has played 20 innings in Australia and bowled 327.3 overs, that's about 16.4 overs per innings.

So Lyon has bowled about 36% more overs than Pattison per innings, which is to be expected from a spinner. Simply comparing bowling averages without taking into account workload is poor cricketing analysis. One important reason teams play spinners is that they are able to provide more overs per innings.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/272279.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/272465.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

[MP2011]

It's not one bad series. It's his career.

Nathan Lyon has played 76 Tests in SENA. SEVENTY SIX!

And this is his record:

52 Tests in Australia - averages 32.97.
13 Tests in England - averages 31.62.
9 Tests in South Africa - averages 39.75

2 Tests in New Zealand - averages 22.60.

This I agree with. Lyon is massively overrated on this forum. Used to be huge fan of him, not any longer.

If having poor numbers in unfamiliar environs is the only criteria to judge a spinner why is only Ashwin (and Yasir) castigated on this forum, why not Lyon? If anything he is born and brought up on Australian pitches and he has a dire record there.

Same goes for his record in other such nations.

 

[Dingolfy]

This I agree with. Lyon is massively overrated on this forum. Used to be huge fan of him, not any longer.

If having poor numbers in unfamiliar environs is the only criteria to judge a spinner why is only Ashwin (and Yasir) castigated on this forum, why not Lyon? If anything he is born and brought up on Australian pitches and he has a dire record there.

Same goes for his record in other such nations.

SENA countries are not conductive to spin. The only spin bowlers( who are not part-timers and bowled in more than five tests)who had an under 30 average in those two countries in the last 20 years are Warne and Murali. And they are ATGs. Swann averages 32.44 in SENA and he was a bloody good spinner. So you have to see Lyon’s averages in that perspective.

 

[Slog]

Absolutely embarassing that he’s saying this in public.

 

[BaankeJi]

Absolutely embarassing that he’s saying this in public.

It's ok. Let him speak.

 

[MP2011]

SENA countries are not conductive to spin. The only spin bowlers( who are not part-timers and bowled in more than five tests)who had an under 30 average in those two countries in the last 20 years are Warne and Murali. And they are ATGs. Swann averages 32.44 in SENA and he was a bloody good spinner. So you have to see Lyon’s averages in that perspective.

I know they're not conducive to spin.

But the one (Lyon) who was held in high regard in current times also doesn't possess particularly earth shattering record in those places, same as Ashwin. Then was he called world's best spinner, ahead of Ashwin who averages a good 7-runs lesser in test cricket?

 

[Dingolfy]

I know they're not conducive to spin.

But the one (Lyon) who was held in high regard in current times also doesn't possess particularly earth shattering record in those places, same as Ashwin. Then was he called world's best spinner, ahead of Ashwin who averages a good 7-runs lesser in test cricket?

I dont think anyone other than Aussies who call Lyon as world’s best spinner.

 

[leg-side-flick]

That's my whole point. It didn't.

The team that "smoked" New Zealand and Pakistan had:

3 quicks in their twenties
1 older spinner.

The team that lost to India had:

1 quick in his twenties
2 quicks in their thirties
1 older spinner.

It doesn't matter that they are the same people. Time never stands still for sports teams. Spain won Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. They took the same team to the 2014 World Cup, lost their first game 5-1 to the Netherlands and five days later they were already eliminated, by losing to Chile.

It was the same team of Pique and Jordi Alba and Xavi and Iniesta. But they had all passed into their thirties now.

Didnt NZ tour happen just one season before India's.

So a team of 20's was smoking everyone and a season later became geriatrics

While I agree that cricket should be played by players with age < 34/35, the above post takes it to a extreme.

What we're the Aussie selectors supposed to do, drop both Hazelwood and Starc because hey you, have celebrated your 30th birthday in pandemic and hence are geriatric now...

Please note,

Cummins is 27,

Hazel just turned 30 in Jan after the series

Starc turned 31 this Saturday, so they are in their primes...

Drop them if you want to, but please, they are not geriatrics....

 

[Dingolfy]

That's my whole point. It didn't.

The team that "smoked" New Zealand and Pakistan had:

3 quicks in their twenties
1 older spinner.

The team that lost to India had:

1 quick in his twenties
2 quicks in their thirties
1 older spinner.

It doesn't matter that they are the same people. Time never stands still for sports teams. Spain won Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. They took the same team to the 2014 World Cup, lost their first game 5-1 to the Netherlands and five days later they were already eliminated, by losing to Chile.

It was the same team of Pique and Jordi Alba and Xavi and Iniesta. But they had all passed into their thirties now.

You conveniently ignored my point on Mitchell Johnson. But then scored a bigger self-goal by mentioning Xavi as he was 30 years old in 2010 and 32 in 2012. And it’s ridiculous to compare Football, a much physical game with lot of running, to cricket. What next, comparison with Rugby and American football?
And there are plenty of 30 plus players who excelled in their respective sports. Michael Jordan won 4 NBA championships out of his total six after he reached 30. And he was the bloody MVP in three of those finals. He won the last threepeat with Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen who all were in their 30s. Jordan won his last NBA championship in 1998 with him being 35, Rodman at 37 and Pippen at 33. And they would have still won another had they stayed together.
Even in American football, boxing and MMA, there are plenty of examples of 30 plus folks making it big.Even the greatest of all,Mohammad Ali was 32 when he won against 25 year old Foreman in Congo.

 

[Varun]

Interestingly, here is Langer's quote from 17 years ago, after we had drawn the series 1-1 in 2003/4 and when he was playing in the team as opening batsman:

"The reality of this series is the extraordinary Indian batting," Langer said, "there is a lot we can learn from them. They look so patient, as if they are in a meditative state. It's awesome the way they apply themselves. I can't remember being under pressure in this manner - the pressure to bowl against them, field against them, and to chase huge scores.

"I can't remember in my career playing a team (like them). It's a credit to them that they have been able to play like that in these conditions."

 

[The Viper]

The Sydney Morning Herald recently published a report that several Australian team players have been unhappy with coach Justin Langer’s management style. The aforementioned reports came in the wake of Australia’s 2-1 series defeat to a depleted Indian unit, even though the visitors were ravaged by injuries to their frontline players.

While speaking on the Big Sports Breakfast, Michael Clarke expressed his disgust at the entire “behind closed doors and going to a journalist” incident, describing it as “weak” on part of the players. The legendary batsman added that he hopes Justin Langer finds out the player who went behind his back so that he can confront him.

Michael Clarke was of the opinion that players should find a way to have their conversation with concerned seniors in person instead of going public with their dressing room grievances. Clarke stated that if players are not feeling comfortable, they should either talk with Langer himself or should confront captain Tim Paine in order to get the “best out of each other”.

 

[Junaids]

You conveniently ignored my point on Mitchell Johnson. But then scored a bigger self-goal by mentioning Xavi as he was 30 years old in 2010 and 32 in 2012. And it’s ridiculous to compare Football, a much physical game with lot of running, to cricket. What next, comparison with Rugby and American football?
And there are plenty of 30 plus players who excelled in their respective sports. Michael Jordan won 4 NBA championships out of his total six after he reached 30. And he was the bloody MVP in three of those finals. He won the last threepeat with Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen who all were in their 30s. Jordan won his last NBA championship in 1998 with him being 35, Rodman at 37 and Pippen at 33. And they would have still won another had they stayed together.
Even in American football, boxing and MMA, there are plenty of examples of 30 plus folks making it big.Even the greatest of all,Mohammad Ali was 32 when he won against 25 year old Foreman in Congo.

You just completely owned [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Maybe he did.

But where were Ishant, Yadav, Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja by the end of the series?

India’s overseas TTFs were all gone. And it was the next generation that won this series.

 

[MP2011]

Interestingly, here is Langer's quote from 17 years ago, after we had drawn the series 1-1 in 2003/4 and when he was playing in the team as opening batsman:

Basically, Langer is a man who gives in easily to hyperboles.

 

[MP2011]

I dont think anyone other than Aussies who call Lyon as world’s best spinner.

There were several on this forum itself.

 

[Slog]

Basically, Langer is a man who gives in easily to hyperboles.

Langer is the king of hyperbole. He’s called Smith, Ponting, Kohli and Sachin the “best batsman he’s ever seen” on different occasions and 3 of these within a few months of each other

 

[viveks]

Maybe he did.

But where were Ishant, Yadav, Shami, Ashwin and Jadeja by the end of the series?

India’s overseas TTFs were all gone. And it was the next generation that won this series.

Ishant Sharma away from home in last four years:

in SA : 2 Matches 8 wickets @ 18.75
in Australia : 3 Matches 11 Wickets @23.81
in England : 5 Matches 18 wickets @ 24.27
in NZ : 1 Match 5 Wickets @ 15.20
in WI : 6 Matches 19 Wickets @ 20.63

So the "TTF" averages under 25 every time he has toured anywhere. Do you actually know anything about cricket?

 

[MP2011]

Langer is the king of hyperbole. He’s called Smith, Ponting, Kohli and Sachin the “best batsman he’s ever seen” on different occasions and 3 of these within a few months of each other

lol, this!

 

[Bigboii]

He is not cut out for the job...
Losing to this inexperienced teams should have ended careers, changed captaincy, and definitely a new setup

They need a fresh start, they really do!

 

[Junaids]

Ishant Sharma away from home in last four years:

in SA : 2 Matches 8 wickets @ 18.75
in Australia : 3 Matches 11 Wickets @23.81
in England : 5 Matches 18 wickets @ 24.27
in NZ : 1 Match 5 Wickets @ 15.20
in WI : 6 Matches 19 Wickets @ 20.63

So the "TTF" averages under 25 every time he has toured anywhere. Do you actually know anything about cricket?

They lost the series you just quoted in England, South Africa and New Zealand, and the West Indies doesn’t count.

My point is that a team is a blend, not just the sum of its parts.

The team of Ishant + Kohli + Ashwin et al has lost all around the world - from England to New Zealand to South Africa.

India is doing well now because of the fearless generation of Siraj and Pant and Sundar.

 

[viveks]

They lost the series you just quoted in England, South Africa and New Zealand, and the West Indies doesn’t count.

My point is that a team is a blend, not just the sum of its parts.

The team of Ishant + Kohli + Ashwin et al has lost all around the world - from England to New Zealand to South Africa.

India is doing well now because of the fearless generation of Siraj and Pant and Sundar.

Actually you said Ishant sharma, and I quote is an " overseas TTF", clearly he is India's best bowler overseas based on the actual record. You can't keep changing goalposts when it suits you

 

[viveks]

They lost the series you just quoted in England, South Africa and New Zealand, and the West Indies doesn’t count.

My point is that a team is a blend, not just the sum of its parts.

The team of Ishant + Kohli + Ashwin et al has lost all around the world - from England to New Zealand to South Africa.

India is doing well now because of the fearless generation of Siraj and Pant and Sundar.

Also, once again. India wouldn't have gone into the last test match 1-1 if not for Ashwin, Pujara, Rahane, Jadeja 'et al'. One test match doesn't prove your theory right regardless of how much you would like to will it into existence

 

[WengerOut]

Serious trapeze artistry on display here by [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

 

[Shafi]

And people want Langer as a head coach for us. This guy is worse Aussie version of Misbah (completely fail to lift his team in home pitches with far superior players than us).

 

[Shafi]

I dont think anyone other than Aussies who call Lyon as world’s best spinner.

I would rather take Yasir in a 5th day pitch than Lyon any day.

 

[Titan24]

Justin Langer names Aussie player at centre of toastie furore

Australian head coach Justin Langer says a report detailing issues with his ‘passionate’ coaching style has come as a ‘wake-up call’ and vowed to learn from the experience.

An eye-opening report from the Sydney Morning Herald outlined various gripes about Langer’s style - however no players quoted in the reports were named.

The report generated controversy over the weekend, with former captain Michael Clarke saying it was ‘weak’ for players to be unwilling to put their name to their criticism of Langer.

“I’m not going to ignore this, of course, and absolutely it is a wake-up call,” Langer told

“My greatest mentors in life are the people who told me the truth and were toughest on me, and I’ve always needed that honest feedback. I might not enjoy it at the time, but it is so, so valuable.”

One of the more bizarre incidents detailed in the SMH story was of Langer scolding a player for attempting to sneak a toastie on field after a lunch break during the fourth Test at the Gabba.

Australian head coach Justin Langer says a report detailing issues with his ‘passionate’ coaching style has come as a ‘wake-up call’ and vowed to learn from the experience.

An eye-opening report from the Sydney Morning Herald outlined various gripes about Langer’s style - however no players quoted in the reports were named.

The report generated controversy over the weekend, with former captain Michael Clarke saying it was ‘weak’ for players to be unwilling to put their name to their criticism of Langer.

“I’m not going to ignore this, of course, and absolutely it is a wake-up call,” Langer told ESPNcricinfo.

“My greatest mentors in life are the people who told me the truth and were toughest on me, and I’ve always needed that honest feedback. I might not enjoy it at the time, but it is so, so valuable.”

One of the more bizarre incidents detailed in the SMH story was of Langer scolding a player for attempting to sneak a toastie on field after a lunch break during the fourth Test at the Gabba.

“You’re walking on against India, we’re trying to win a Test match and one of our players walks on with a toasted sandwich in his hand,” Langer said in the SMH report.

“I spoke to (the player) about it at length yesterday. I said, ‘How do you reckon it looks, mate?’ Is that not something I should say?”

In his further comments to ESPNcricinfo, Langer had no reservations about outing the player involved - although he clearly seemed to see the funny side.

“I’m the grumpiest ***** in the world because I told Marnus Labuschagne not to take a toasted ham and cheese sandwich (to the dugout) after his 40-minute lunch break,” he said

While Langer admitted the report had come as a ‘wake-up call’, he made no bones about his coaching style, admitting he could be ‘grumpy’ at times.

He added that he would have preferred for the players to come to him directly - giving him a better opportunity to learn from his mistakes.

“The only disappointing thing from the weekend’s reports was there was discussion things were coming from within the camp,” Langer told

“You know me, I’m a pretty simple bloke and let’s get this on the record: yeah I am intense, yeah I am serious, I am.

“Do I get grumpy sometimes? Yeah I get grumpy sometimes, I’m not perfect that’s for sure, but I’m pretty good at some of the things I do and you just don’t like it when you feel people — through managers or players, whatever — I would rather they came straight to me, that’s the Australian way as I know it, let’s talk through it, let’s go through it and work things out.”

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/justin-...hich-furore-marnus-labuschagne-001333027.html

 

[Titan24]

“You’re walking on against India, we’re trying to win a Test match and one of our players walks on with a toasted sandwich in his hand,” Langer said in the SMH report.

“I spoke to (the player) about it at length yesterday. I said, ‘How do you reckon it looks, mate?’ Is that not something I should say?”

“I’m the grumpiest ***** in the world because I told Marnus Labuschagne not to take a toasted ham and cheese sandwich (to the dugout) after his 40-minute lunch break,” he said

Thats hilarious!

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] Indian quicks were on average half a foot shorter than their Australian counterparts. So are you going to revisit your 'height' argument? Going forward can we expect to see more flexibility from your side when it comes to height of pace bowlers especially in places like Australia and South Africa?