[VIDEO] University of Lahore expels 2 students after an on campus marriage proposal!

[sindhiboy]

I’m sorry if my religious views sound dirty to you. But as Muslims, women and men are not supposed to have such physical contact. It is not allowed. I know in real life it doesn’t work that way because I have hugged and I have been hugged by female friends and co workers myself. But I try to avoid it best I can.

You seem to be a lot more liberal than I am. You are entitled to your views as am I. But traditionally speaking, this is not who we are. I understand times change and all but I personally can’t condone it.

It could be a recent phenomenon, but I have seen many university/school boy students with female friends who hug occasionally.

I'm surprised that co education hasn't been eradicated yet. As that will leave no room for contact between the two genders.

 

[CricketCartoons]

It could be a recent phenomenon, but I have seen many university/school boy students with female friends who hug occasionally.

I'm surprised that co education hasn't been eradicated yet. As that will leave no room for contact between the two genders.

Gender segregation is beneficial for students, especially girls, as they grow in an environment free from the burden of being judged by the opposite sex. Girls wont have to worry about guys talking about them when they start reaching puberty or start menses. Bad if Pakistan allows co-ed at school level.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What makes you think I'm telling people what to think

Reading your posts.

 

[Stewie]

It could be a recent phenomenon, but I have seen many university/school boy students with female friends who hug occasionally.

I'm surprised that co education hasn't been eradicated yet. As that will leave no room for contact between the two genders.

That’s another extreme. Why do we always have to go for extremes? I am not advocating for segregation.

This debate seems like a lost cause to me. It seems either people consider you too liberal or too conservative. There is just not middle ground.


Pretty frustrating...

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1612865/human-rights-ministry-asks-university-of-lahore-to-re-admit-expelled-couple

Ministry of Human Rights Parliamentary Secretary Lal Chand Malhi has termed the University of Lahore's decision to expel two students for hugging on campus an "overreaction" and asked the varsity to re-admit them.

In a letter to the University of Lahore's vice chancellor, dated March 16, Malhi said the university management had "overreacted" and expelled the students without giving them the opportunity to explain themselves or examining all the details of the incident.

He termed the university's action as "moral policing" and said deviant behaviour should instead be regulated through counselling, noting however, that such services were mostly not provided by university administrations.

Malhi said their expulsion was "certainly uncalled for and an evident case of violation of the human rights of the students".

"Both the girl and the boy did not commit such a heinous crime for which they were punished severely and expelled from the university. This would destroy their career and future education opportunities," the letter, a copy of which is available with Dawn.com, read.

Noting that the two had proposed to each other on March 8, International Women's Day, the letter said:

"This kind of freedom is outlined in article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which Pakistan is party and also under the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights."

It added that the very same personal freedoms of the right to marry and propose at will were also guaranteed by the relevant laws and Constitution of Pakistan.

The "extreme action" of the university had sent a critical message at the national and international levels that it could not tolerate and accept two students proposing to each other, wrote Malhi.

The secretary also noted his concern that the special disciplinary committee formed on the incident did not have any female in its composition when one of the students was female. He added that it had quoted sections of the university code relating to regular and ordinary conduct, whereas the case was a "special occasion" — as admitted in the committee meeting itself.

He stressed that the "extreme punishment" was in contravention of justice and would have "very negative repercussions for the society".

With Pakistan having a majority youth population, "it is important to be mindful of the aspirations of the youth," he wrote.

"I am very much in favour of moral character building as part of higher education curriculum and extracurricular activities but I don't think that the extreme actions like expelling the students would serve the purpose.

"I would reiterate that the decision is in contradiction of basic human rights," he said, and urged the university administration to reconsider its decision and restore the admission of the students.

Last week, a video of the couple, made in the University of Lahore, had gone viral in which the female student gets down on a knee and proposes to the boy. The couple can then be seen hugging and holding bouquets of flowers as onlookers cheer them on and film the scene.

The University of Lahore said the pair had acted "in violation of university rules".

It added in a statement later that they had failed to appear before a disciplinary hearing and were expelled for "serious infraction of the code of conduct".

This caused an uproar on social media, with hundreds of Twiteratti, including celebrities and politicians, terming the university's decision as "extreme" and called for its reversal.

 

[golagunda]

It wonder if this couple was actually planning to get married or were just having some fun. They must be under pressure to actually get married now that this has received so much attention. Even the ministry of human rights has gotten involved.

 

[uberkoen]

Reading your posts.

Think your comprehension skills need improving

 

[uberkoen]

I’m sorry if my religious views sound dirty to you. But as Muslims, women and men are not supposed to have such physical contact. It is not allowed. I know in real life it doesn’t work that way because I have hugged and I have been hugged by female friends and co workers myself. But I try to avoid it best I can.

You seem to be a lot more liberal than I am. You are entitled to your views as am I. But traditionally speaking, this is not who we are. I understand times change and all but I personally can’t condone it.

Again, this is not who 'we' are. This is who YOU are. If you don't like it, don't do it but don't criticize others who do it because that is none of your business.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

People in Pakistan are so sexually frustrated that when they see someone else in love it burns them up inside. And automatically they start throwing religion and traditional values in your face. It is impossible for them to mind their own business and not morally police others.

I feel sorry for people in Pakistan who are in love and have to be so cautious in public. I know because my ex-girlfriend used to worry about it all the time aswell.

 

[saeedhk]

People in Pakistan are so sexually frustrated that when they see someone else in love it burns them up inside. And automatically they start throwing religion and traditional values in your face. It is impossible for them to mind their own business and not morally police others.

I feel sorry for people in Pakistan who are in love and have to be so cautious in public. I know because my ex-girlfriend used to worry about it all the time aswell.

Agree. Most Pakistanis are bitter people. Haven’t you seen the hate comments in the comment section whenever a celebrity posts photos with their loved ones vacationing in Turkey or elsewhere ; half of them are about religion values and half of the comments are curse words.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Agree. Most Pakistanis are bitter people. Haven’t you seen the hate comments in the comment section whenever a celebrity posts photos with their loved ones vacationing in Turkey or elsewhere ; half of them are about religion values and half of the comments are curse words.

Many of them are incels who through no fault of their own have no interaction with a person of the opposite gender until they get married. They are sexually frustrated and end up morally policing others whether its by becoming keyboard warriors or showing up at women's marches to pelt stones at protesters.

Makes one question that if the vast majority of people in Pakistan are so pious and conservative than how does Pakistan top Google searches for gay porn?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

People in Pakistan are so sexually frustrated that when they see someone else in love it burns them up inside. And automatically they start throwing religion and traditional values in your face. It is impossible for them to mind their own business and not morally police others.

I feel sorry for people in Pakistan who are in love and have to be so cautious in public. I know because my ex-girlfriend used to worry about it all the time aswell.

Why were the onlookers cheering and clapping then? If anything that the pair of them felt confident to play this out in public suggests the atmosphere in Pakistan is fairly liberal, at least for a Muslim country where public displays of affection don't seem encouraged.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Why were the onlookers cheering and clapping then? If anything that the pair of them felt confident to play this out in public suggests the atmosphere in Pakistan is fairly liberal, at least for a Muslim country where public displays of affection don't seem encouraged.

Taking one example and using it as a basis of your argument about the entirety of Pakistan is quite ridiculous. I am assuming you have not been to Pakistan if you consider it to be fairly liberal, which it is not.

The reason the onlookers may have been cheering could be because they were their acquaintances and/or classmates.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Taking one example and using it as a basis of your argument about the entirety of Pakistan is quite ridiculous. I am assuming you have not been to Pakistan if you consider it to be fairly liberal, which it is not.

The reason the onlookers may have been cheering could be because they were their acquaintances and/or classmates.

I see, so in effect this university campus was a sort of bubble which is totally unrepresentative of the lives of ordinary Pakistanis. You mentioned people throwing religion and traditional values in your face, do you feel this is an issue particular to Pakistan, or is it par for the course in most Muslim countries?

 

[Stewie]

Again, this is not who 'we' are. This is who YOU are. If you don't like it, don't do it but don't criticize others who do it because that is none of your business.

So majority of Pakistanis are not Muslims? Is that what you are claiming? Do majority of pakistanis feel like it’s ok for their sisters, daughters, other girls in their families to hug a ghair mard in public like that, while being recorded?

I am a Muslim and I am well within my right to criticize someone doing something like that in a Muslim society. Unless they are non Muslims, in which case I have no problem with that at all.

The larger problem it seems to me is, that you seem to be exhibiting a very authoritarian attitude towards me in the name of liberalism, see the irony of that?
As a father to a daughter, and uncle to several nieces, I do not want the girls in my family to see this happening in Pakistan and thinking this is normal and acceptable. What we do reflects on our society and what society at large does reflects on us as individuals. There are certain rules and guidelines we have to follow. Why is public nudity not allowed even in the US when it’s the supposed bastion of liberty and freedom? Because people here are mostly conservative and as long as those conservative values are not compromised you are free to do what you want.

In Pakistan, we have mostly conservative to semi conservative citizens. Even semi conservative ones and a few liberal ones like me would tell you this is NOT ok. Of course the vast majority of conservative ones would totally want to kill you over something like this. Haha.

So you can claim all you want to be speaking for freedom, but don’t try to make me the bad guy here. I’m not speaking just for myself, i am speaking for quite a majority here. If your daughter wants to go hug men like that, I’m sure nobody would complain as long as you don’t mind and she does it within the confines and privacy of her home and not in public. That’s the point. It sends a wrong message to younger more malleable minds on what’s acceptable and what’s not in a Muslim
Society of something like this is done in public.

 

[Stewie]

Why were the onlookers cheering and clapping then? If anything that the pair of them felt confident to play this out in public suggests the atmosphere in Pakistan is fairly liberal, at least for a Muslim country where public displays of affection don't seem encouraged.

Because it’s staged and the onlookers with phones out should give you the clue. They were in on it and are probably the friends of one or both of them. Obviously they are there because they don’t 1)find anything wrong with it and/or 2) peer pressure, found it ok to play along as long as it wasn’t them and their friend wanted to do it.

You can present a number of arguments. It’s strange though that most proper Muslim Americans who have been brought up with the sense of all freedom and liberty here in the US would never do something like this in public, or consider this to be ok while in Pakistan people are arguing for its acceptance.

It’s quite strange how in the name of liberalism and modernity, we are ok with overlooking some basic tenets of who we are from a religious as well as cultural aspect. As they say “kawwa chala hans ki chaal apni bhi bhool gaya”

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I see, so in effect this university campus was a sort of bubble which is totally unrepresentative of the lives of ordinary Pakistanis. You mentioned people throwing religion and traditional values in your face, do you feel this is an issue particular to Pakistan, or is it par for the course in most Muslim countries?

I think you are failing to grasp a very simple idea that nothing is ever as black and white as you seem to think.

There are liberal people everywhere, but almost everywhere (barring universities like LUMS and IBA which do infact exist in a bubble) they are outnumbered and stifled by moral policing, narrow-minded conservatives. They are in administration, they are students, they are teachers. And I'm just talking about universities here, not the society in general.

I'll give you an example from my own university. When I was finishing up my Bachelors degree from Bahria University, Islamabad a couple of years ago we had a new Rector come in. The rector in all his infinite wisdom instituted a 6 inch rule. I kid you not, he instituted a rule whereby male students had to maintain a distance of 6 inches from female students. Now keep in mind this is a normal co-education university where boys and girls regularly work together in groups and on projects. How narrow-minded do you have to be to come up with something like this?

Well now which Muslim country are you talking about here? I mean its not like they are all interchangeable. A country like Saudi Arabia is still stuck in the stone-age in most respects. Whereas a country like Turkey is much more westernized and secular.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think you are failing to grasp a very simple idea that nothing is ever as black and white as you seem to think.

There are liberal people everywhere, but almost everywhere (barring universities like LUMS and IBA which do infact exist in a bubble) they are outnumbered and stifled by moral policing, narrow-minded conservatives. They are in administration, they are students, they are teachers. And I'm just talking about universities here, not the society in general.

I'll give you an example from my own university. When I was finishing up my Bachelors degree from Bahria University, Islamabad a couple of years ago we had a new Rector come in. The rector in all his infinite wisdom instituted a 6 inch rule. I kid you not, he instituted a rule whereby male students had to maintain a distance of 6 inches from female students. Now keep in mind this is a normal co-education university where boys and girls regularly work together in groups and on projects. How narrow-minded do you have to be to come up with something like this?

Well now which Muslim country are you talking about here? I mean its not like they are all interchangeable. A country like Saudi Arabia is still stuck in the stone-age in most respects. Whereas a country like Turkey is much more westernized and secular.

I didn't ask for specific Muslim countries, I only asked whether it was an issue specifically in Pakistan, or most Muslim countries. The reason I asked was that both you and saeedhk were lamenting Pakistanis in general as bitter, sexually frustrated etc, so I was wanting to explore whether that might be cultural or religious influence.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I didn't ask for specific Muslim countries, I only asked whether it was an issue specifically in Pakistan, or most Muslim countries. The reason I asked was that both you and saeedhk were lamenting Pakistanis in general as bitter, sexually frustrated etc, so I was wanting to explore whether that might be cultural or religious influence.

I wouldn't know. I can only tell you about Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wouldn't know. I can only tell you about Pakistan.

Well you can talk about Pakistan's cultural issues then, I'll add my thoughts on where they might stem from.

 

[ahmedzee]

This is a myth that Pakistani marriages last longer and are generally more successful than those of the European’s. In our culture, women decide to stay in abusive marriages because divorce is stigmatising and divorced women are stigmatised and frowned upon. It is common for Pakistani women to endure violence but still refuse to separate from their husbands all in the name of izzat, ghairat and log kya kahengay!

I know that what you mention, abusive marriages, divorces, etc. is prevalent in your family but don't generalize that all Pakistani marriages are like that. Everyone in my family, extended family, friends, their extended family are happily married, were always married in their prior generations as well. Even those who settled overseas are happily married. Stats at times don't lie when they show eastern marriages last longer and less divorces are happening when compared for a place like uk (51% marriages end in divorce). So don't just generalize the whole nation over your personal family failures.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well you can talk about Pakistan's cultural issues then, I'll add my thoughts on where they might stem from.

I think religion is embedded a little too much in Pakistani society. It is part of every facet of life. Common sense and rationality is far too often, trumped by religion. One example from recent times is the case of not closing mosques during peak COVID outbreak. Because the government simply did not have the gall to go against the mullahs. This was a time when even Saudi Arabia had stopped Hajj and Umrah. Even these days when we are experiencing the third wave here in Pakistan and cases are spiking everyday; however seemingly rational people that I personally know are going to mosques five times a day, everyday.

Nobody can have an honest conversation about religion things like the blasphemy law. Because I cannot tell you how many times seemingly average that I have known have turned out to be closet extremists.

Liberal ideas are regularly attacked. Just one example is that of the Women's March which was organized for the first time a couple of years ago. Its no secret that women are highly marginalized in Pakistan. Besides being subjected to violence in the form of acid attacks, honor killings, domestic abuse and harassment in all walks of life; there is a massive disparity in regards to economic integration between men and women in Pakistan. And women donot have much economic freedom. Just look at the World Gender Wage Gap Index where Pakistan ranks 151 out of 153 countries. And mind you, this is not the case in India and Bangladesh where women have much greater economic freedom and contribute significantly to the economy.

Rather than focus on these issues which are a bane to our progress as a society (and are being highlighted by the march), the mainstream media have called the march an 'assault on our traditional values' and needlessly focused on specific placards to distract away from the actual idea of the march. Whereas religious zealots have not only tried their very best to stamp charges of blasphemy on the protestors but also resorted to pelting them with stones on numerous occasions.

And funny thing is if you ask average Pakistani men about the position of women in society they will confidently tell you about how they always give up their place in a line for a lady.

And its the little things too. Like for example, two times now TikTok has been banned here because it spreads "immorality". These unaware fools donot realize that TikTok has become a source of earning for many poor content creators, who have used their creativity to economically uplift themselves.

Last year the release of a film Zindagi Tamasha was cancelled because religious zealots did not like the trailer and thought it was an attack on religion, without even seeing the film. The film is yet to be released but was somehow Pakistan's official submission at the Oscars.

If you look at Pakistan today we are absolutely nowhere in the fields of science and technology. Rather than focusing on these areas people are fixated on only one thing: religion. I live in Rawalpindi and the case of religious extremists from the TLP blocking the main highway to Islamabad has become a bi-annual occurrence. Their latest reason was that because those blasphemous cartoon were published by Charlie Hebdo therefore Pakistan should expel the French ambassador. And the state does not have the guts to take on them. They usually just bow down to their demands.

 

[Stewie]

I think religion is embedded a little too much in Pakistani society. It is part of every facet of life. Common sense and rationality is far too often, trumped by religion. One example from recent times is the case of not closing mosques during peak COVID outbreak. Because the government simply did not have the gall to go against the mullahs. This was a time when even Saudi Arabia had stopped Hajj and Umrah. Even these days when we are experiencing the third wave here in Pakistan and cases are spiking everyday; however seemingly rational people that I personally know are going to mosques five times a day, everyday.

Nobody can have an honest conversation about religion things like the blasphemy law. Because I cannot tell you how many times seemingly average that I have known have turned out to be closet extremists.

Liberal ideas are regularly attacked. Just one example is that of the Women's March which was organized for the first time a couple of years ago. Its no secret that women are highly marginalized in Pakistan. Besides being subjected to violence in the form of acid attacks, honor killings, domestic abuse and harassment in all walks of life; there is a massive disparity in regards to economic integration between men and women in Pakistan. And women donot have much economic freedom. Just look at the World Gender Wage Gap Index where Pakistan ranks 151 out of 153 countries. And mind you, this is not the case in India and Bangladesh where women have much greater economic freedom and contribute significantly to the economy.

Rather than focus on these issues which are a bane to our progress as a society (and are being highlighted by the march), the mainstream media have called the march an 'assault on our traditional values' and needlessly focused on specific placards to distract away from the actual idea of the march. Whereas religious zealots have not only tried their very best to stamp charges of blasphemy on the protestors but also resorted to pelting them with stones on numerous occasions.

And funny thing is if you ask average Pakistani men about the position of women in society they will confidently tell you about how they always give up their place in a line for a lady.

And its the little things too. Like for example, two times now TikTok has been banned here because it spreads "immorality". These unaware fools donot realize that TikTok has become a source of earning for many poor content creators, who have used their creativity to economically uplift themselves.

Last year the release of a film Zindagi Tamasha was cancelled because religious zealots did not like the trailer and thought it was an attack on religion, without even seeing the film. The film is yet to be released but was somehow Pakistan's official submission at the Oscars.

If you look at Pakistan today we are absolutely nowhere in the fields of science and technology. Rather than focusing on these areas people are fixated on only one thing: religion. I live in Rawalpindi and the case of religious extremists from the TLP blocking the main highway to Islamabad has become a bi-annual occurrence. Their latest reason was that because those blasphemous cartoon were published by Charlie Hebdo therefore Pakistan should expel the French ambassador. And the state does not have the guts to take on them. They usually just bow down to their demands.

What you are blaming on religion is actually a Frankenstein abomination form of religion. Religion doesn’t hold you back from living your life in a prosperous society. I think we all know that. So please stop blaming everything on religion.

Pakistan’s problems are multi fold. Dishonesty, cutting corners, thievery, all manners of corruption, these are part of the culture now. Religion is a victim to all these diseases like everything else. It is not the cause of the issues we face.

In the light of this thread, what’s so wrong to expect that men and women can study and work together in a decent respectful way and the traditional Islamic values of not indulging in displays of affection (public or otherwise) between a female
Or male who are not officially man and wife? I don’t think it’s too much of an ask. My wife and I both went through college in pakistan that way.

You can prosper, sociologically, scientifically, professionally, educationally without completely following western practices.

 

[saeedhk]

I know that what you mention, abusive marriages, divorces, etc. is prevalent in your family but don't generalize that all Pakistani marriages are like that. Everyone in my family, extended family, friends, their extended family are happily married, were always married in their prior generations as well. Even those who settled overseas are happily married. Stats at times don't lie when they show eastern marriages last longer and less divorces are happening when compared for a place like uk (51% marriages end in divorce). So don't just generalize the whole nation over your personal family failures.

If the marriages around you are successful, then that is an exemption. The norm is that a very large number of marriages are abusive especially in Pakistan. Pakistani women prefer to stay in abusive marriages because they are not financially independent and there is a lot of stigma attached to divorced women. 70% of Pakistani women suffer from abusive husbands and 5000 women are killed annually due to domestic violence. The actual number will be much higher.

 

[Yossarian]

Without getting into into the rights or wrongs of what the students did, and the resulting punishment by the University, let's step back for a second and ask a few questions.

1. Even if it was a genuine marriage proposal and acceptance by two people who love each other, was it also done as a public stunt on University premises against the Universities code of conduct as the University claims?

2. Once it became so public, and as the article states, the University being a private institution and aware of the potential ramification, and resulting loss of income,and maybe reputation in a country like Pakistan, especially from the parents of female students, could / should the University have ignored it all, or was it obliged to hold a hearing at the very least?

3. Should the students have attended the hearing and defended the charges laid against them, or were they right in not attending (and thereby showing complete contempt for the committee and it's members)?

4. If the latter, ie showing complete contempt for the committee and it's members, what other actions could the committee have taken, if any at all?

Answer those questions with an open mind by looking at the facts mentioned, and see if you still come to the same conclusion as to the wrongs or rights of the punishment?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

What you are blaming on religion is actually a Frankenstein abomination form of religion. Religion doesn’t hold you back from living your life in a prosperous society. I think we all know that. So please stop blaming everything on religion.

Pakistan’s problems are multi fold. Dishonesty, cutting corners, thievery, all manners of corruption, these are part of the culture now. Religion is a victim to all these diseases like everything else. It is not the cause of the issues we face.

In the light of this thread, what’s so wrong to expect that men and women can study and work together in a decent respectful way and the traditional Islamic values of not indulging in displays of affection (public or otherwise) between a female
Or male who are not officially man and wife? I don’t think it’s too much of an ask. My wife and I both went through college in pakistan that way.

You can prosper, sociologically, scientifically, professionally, educationally without completely following western practices.

You're missing the point. Religion has no role in the functioning of the state. When you create laws such as the blasphemy law, declare Ahmedis non-Muslims in your constitution and declare that you are a devoutly Sunni state than all the problems emanate right then and there. Once religion has such a major role in the functioning of the state than it is bound to seep in to every walk of life from politics to law. I have given plenty of examples. But simply put, religion is a private matter and should remain as such.

Religion should regulate your own personal life. You should not use religion to regulate the lives of others.

Many countries in the world have the same issues of dishonesty, corruption, cutting corners. Name one country where these issues don't exist. Why are they so successful? Countries like India and Bangladesh are by some measures even more corrupt than Pakistan, why are they so economically better off than Pakistan today?

And its not that being religious is a negative thing. But when you apply it everything without paying any heed to rationality than that's a problem. The case of people going to mosques during COVID is just one example.

No. If a boy and a girl want to sit together its their choice. As long as its not uncomfortable for other people, its perfectly alright. Just because you are conservative doesn't mean everyone else should be conservative aswell. And it shows where your thinking is at that you automatically assumed that if a boy and girl are sitting closer together therefore it has to have romantic connotations, they can't simply be friends.

What is this obsession with branding things western? It is really so hard for you to fathom that some people just think differently than you? Some people are religious, others are not. Some people are liberal, others are conservative. The only thing I will say is that displays of affection should not be done in public. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting 2 or 3 inches away from a girl lol.

 

[Stewie]

You're missing the point. Religion has no role in the functioning of the state. When you create laws such as the blasphemy law, declare Ahmedis non-Muslims in your constitution and declare that you are a devoutly Sunni state than all the problems emanate right then and there. Once religion has such a major role in the functioning of the state than it is bound to seep in to every walk of life from politics to law. I have given plenty of examples. But simply put, religion is a private matter and should remain as such.

Religion should regulate your own personal life. You should not use religion to regulate the lives of others.

Many countries in the world have the same issues of dishonesty, corruption, cutting corners. Name one country where these issues don't exist. Why are they so successful? Countries like India and Bangladesh are by some measures even more corrupt than Pakistan, why are they so economically better off than Pakistan today?

And its not that being religious is a negative thing. But when you apply it everything without paying any heed to rationality than that's a problem. The case of people going to mosques during COVID is just one example.

No. If a boy and a girl want to sit together its their choice. As long as its not uncomfortable for other people, its perfectly alright. Just because you are conservative doesn't mean everyone else should be conservative aswell. And it shows where your thinking is at that you automatically assumed that if a boy and girl are sitting closer together therefore it has to have romantic connotations, they can't simply be friends.

What is this obsession with branding things western? It is really so hard for you to fathom that some people just think differently than you? Some people are religious, others are not. Some people are liberal, others are conservative. The only thing I will say is that displays of affection should not be done in public. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting 2 or 3 inches away from a girl lol.

Religion should not have any say in the affairs of the state only and only if it’s defined as such in the constitution. You are trying to hold Pakistan and Pakistanis by the standards of nations who are secular and believe in the separation of Church and state. Pakistan currently, is not such a state. It’s a democratic Islamic republic. And this is opening a whole can of worms, because clearly we are here not there. We have an amalgamation in our laws and constitution. But there are certain laws in Pakistan that prohibit such activities, whether you like it or not. Hadoop ordinance is one such law. I remember when I was in college, sometimes guys and girls would steal away for a date in the park and police will question them if they are married or how are they related to each other.

If you want this to go away, it will first require the nation to make up its mind and democratically and constitutionally change these systems in place and the direction of our nation. But we are either not doing it or we are not there yet. It’s been over 79 years and our constitution is a big convulsed mess. Our laws are more so.

I am not advocating anything here, I’m just trying to present the facts. By the way, since we all seem to favor democracy so much, if a referendum is held right now to check the pulse of the nation as to whether we should act upon the idea of the separation of religion and government, tell me honestly, what would the majority vote for?

If my observation is correct, a vast majority would come out and say impose sharia laws. If there is no rigging or maneuvering, I assure you a vast majority of our people living in rural areas, if given the chance to have their say, would choose that option. What then? You believe in democracy, right? So would you honor their choice?

This issue is not as cut and dried as we think. The truth is religion IS married into our governance, culture, lives A LOT. You simply can’t undo it all like that.

My personal preference would be of course to have a more secular leaning state. Where religion is a big part of people’s lives because, as Muslims we want it to be that way but yes, our laws and constitution should be assessed and modified with a proper mix of both modern considerations in the light of Islamic laws.

Even in the US where the believe in separation of church and state, do you know what’s a huge huge issue every election year?
It’s the right to get an abortion. Now of US was completely religion free, how come a lot of the states have very strict abortion laws and how come there are always ongoing efforts to make it illegal?

Religion is ingrained into our lives everywhere, Muslims or non Muslims, it’s not just a Pakistan thing.

 

[CricketCartoons]

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting 2 or 3 inches away from a girl lol.

Only on a flight where there is no choice left. Otherwise too close for comfort.

 

[ManFan]

Yes.

Pakistan, where you can get away for months on end after raping children and beating them but if you dare propose in public, you will get banned.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Only on a flight where there is no choice left. Otherwise too close for comfort.

Your opinion.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Religion should not have any say in the affairs of the state only and only if it’s defined as such in the constitution. You are trying to hold Pakistan and Pakistanis by the standards of nations who are secular and believe in the separation of Church and state. Pakistan currently, is not such a state. It’s a democratic Islamic republic. And this is opening a whole can of worms, because clearly we are here not there. We have an amalgamation in our laws and constitution. But there are certain laws in Pakistan that prohibit such activities, whether you like it or not. Hadoop ordinance is one such law. I remember when I was in college, sometimes guys and girls would steal away for a date in the park and police will question them if they are married or how are they related to each other.

If you want this to go away, it will first require the nation to make up its mind and democratically and constitutionally change these systems in place and the direction of our nation. But we are either not doing it or we are not there yet. It’s been over 79 years and our constitution is a big convulsed mess. Our laws are more so.

I am not advocating anything here, I’m just trying to present the facts. By the way, since we all seem to favor democracy so much, if a referendum is held right now to check the pulse of the nation as to whether we should act upon the idea of the separation of religion and government, tell me honestly, what would the majority vote for?

If my observation is correct, a vast majority would come out and say impose sharia laws. If there is no rigging or maneuvering, I assure you a vast majority of our people living in rural areas, if given the chance to have their say, would choose that option. What then? You believe in democracy, right? So would you honor their choice?

This issue is not as cut and dried as we think. The truth is religion IS married into our governance, culture, lives A LOT. You simply can’t undo it all like that.

My personal preference would be of course to have a more secular leaning state. Where religion is a big part of people’s lives because, as Muslims we want it to be that way but yes, our laws and constitution should be assessed and modified with a proper mix of both modern considerations in the light of Islamic laws.

Even in the US where the believe in separation of church and state, do you know what’s a huge huge issue every election year?
It’s the right to get an abortion. Now of US was completely religion free, how come a lot of the states have very strict abortion laws and how come there are always ongoing efforts to make it illegal?

Religion is ingrained into our lives everywhere, Muslims or non Muslims, it’s not just a Pakistan thing.

I don't disagree with much of what you are saying. Any state represents the wishes of the majority. But that doesn't mean that the state does not have a role to play in ensuring majoritarianism doesn't reign supreme. And while its fairly obvious that nothing is going to change in our lifetimes we must atleast recognize that the excessive use of religion to define anything and everything has a major role to play in our problems. Whether you admit it not won't change the reality.

Abortion is more of a right/left issue than a religious/non-religious issue. The US like ay country in the world has liberals and conservatives. The states that are conservative tend to be anti-abortion whereas the states that are liberal tend to be pro-choice. And religion may be engrained in peoples lives but it has nothing to do with the functioning of the state. Also, you are comparing state-level legislatures to the federal which simply are not comparable.

 

[Stewie]

I don't disagree with much of what you are saying. Any state represents the wishes of the majority. But that doesn't mean that the state does not have a role to play in ensuring majoritarianism doesn't reign supreme. And while its fairly obvious that nothing is going to change in our lifetimes we must atleast recognize that the excessive use of religion to define anything and everything has a major role to play in our problems. Whether you admit it not won't change the reality.

Abortion is more of a right/left issue than a religious/non-religious issue. The US like ay country in the world has liberals and conservatives. The states that are conservative tend to be anti-abortion whereas the states that are liberal tend to be pro-choice. And religion may be engrained in peoples lives but it has nothing to do with the functioning of the state. Also, you are comparing state-level legislatures to the federal which simply are not comparable.

The difference between left and right is hanging on to conservative values which are in majority cases religious values. If you fail to see that with the abortion issues, I am afraid you have very little knowledge of its background. It’s extremely religious in nature. Most of America is extremely religious and conservative in nature as compared to the rest of the west. You just have to study the history of US and the first colonists to understand why that’s the case. And the only reason I used state level is because that’s how the US works. Unlike other countries most of these decisions are made at state level first and that fact has no overall bearing for n this discussion. You are also wrong when you say it doesn’t have any impact on legislature. IT DoES. Of course it does. Abortion is illegal in some states. If you want it legalized you have to go through legislature. When majority states have a change in law then the federal courts get involved. But the way US works, federal courts and the President directly have little say in the matters at the state level but I will reiterate, this dynamic has overall no bearing on the argument that Americans by and large are religious people and their religious bias and values do impact the laws and governance of the land.

You would be naive to completely ignore this fact in hour somewhat skewed idea of the west being superior over us because of their “irreligiosity” which is completely untrue when it comes to the US.

The difference is they don’t impose these ideas through riots (well unless you consider Trumpers as your typical conservatives which they are not) whereas in our part of the world, we have idiots like Khadim Hussein and others who want to go around damaging properties and hurting people.

But going back to the topic, I do agree with you strongly that sooner or later we will have to decide and we will come to a point where we will outgrow these tendencies.
I think that’s the part of overall human evolution/national evolution. Years ago Muslim women HAD to be covered head to toe, now it’s generally acceptable a woman can be a good Muslim even if her face and hair shows in public. Similarly, we may come around to a stage where our people realize it makes more sense to move away from Sharia laws and towards the secular direction. But it all depends on overall growth of the people. I think saudis, to use as an example, did not grow much because they never felt the need to. Oil basically gave them all the riches and they didn’t need to conform, or be flexible for socioeconomic reasons, which is why they are still stuck in the old ways.
Pakistanis were never hardcore religious people we just like to pretend we are and act like we are... so there is still hope!

 

[CricketCartoons]

Your opinion.

What a startling revelation, that my post was my opinion, while your post was not your opinion, I assume?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think religion is embedded a little too much in Pakistani society. It is part of every facet of life. Common sense and rationality is far too often, trumped by religion. One example from recent times is the case of not closing mosques during peak COVID outbreak. Because the government simply did not have the gall to go against the mullahs. This was a time when even Saudi Arabia had stopped Hajj and Umrah. Even these days when we are experiencing the third wave here in Pakistan and cases are spiking everyday; however seemingly rational people that I personally know are going to mosques five times a day, everyday.

Nobody can have an honest conversation about religion things like the blasphemy law. Because I cannot tell you how many times seemingly average that I have known have turned out to be closet extremists.

Liberal ideas are regularly attacked. Just one example is that of the Women's March which was organized for the first time a couple of years ago. Its no secret that women are highly marginalized in Pakistan. Besides being subjected to violence in the form of acid attacks, honor killings, domestic abuse and harassment in all walks of life; there is a massive disparity in regards to economic integration between men and women in Pakistan. And women donot have much economic freedom. Just look at the World Gender Wage Gap Index where Pakistan ranks 151 out of 153 countries. And mind you, this is not the case in India and Bangladesh where women have much greater economic freedom and contribute significantly to the economy.

Rather than focus on these issues which are a bane to our progress as a society (and are being highlighted by the march), the mainstream media have called the march an 'assault on our traditional values' and needlessly focused on specific placards to distract away from the actual idea of the march. Whereas religious zealots have not only tried their very best to stamp charges of blasphemy on the protestors but also resorted to pelting them with stones on numerous occasions.

And funny thing is if you ask average Pakistani men about the position of women in society they will confidently tell you about how they always give up their place in a line for a lady.

And its the little things too. Like for example, two times now TikTok has been banned here because it spreads "immorality". These unaware fools donot realize that TikTok has become a source of earning for many poor content creators, who have used their creativity to economically uplift themselves.

Last year the release of a film Zindagi Tamasha was cancelled because religious zealots did not like the trailer and thought it was an attack on religion, without even seeing the film. The film is yet to be released but was somehow Pakistan's official submission at the Oscars.

If you look at Pakistan today we are absolutely nowhere in the fields of science and technology. Rather than focusing on these areas people are fixated on only one thing: religion. I live in Rawalpindi and the case of religious extremists from the TLP blocking the main highway to Islamabad has become a bi-annual occurrence. Their latest reason was that because those blasphemous cartoon were published by Charlie Hebdo therefore Pakistan should expel the French ambassador. And the state does not have the guts to take on them. They usually just bow down to their demands.

Well, as a western born and bred, my mindset is definitely more set in western ways so I personally would agree with you on many points. That said, as a westerner with a liberal mindset, I also appreciate that different cultures have their own values so I don't generally try to impose my ideas on them. Luckily for me, my family in Pakistan are very decent, law abiding, and not judgemental, and in many ways they are more tolerant of our ways than I am of theirs. I guess I am lucky that my quite large family in Pakistan all seem to be decent people, unlike the experiences of saeedhk and perhaps yourself.

I think Pakistan will change when Pakistanis are ready to change, and that is how it should be. Societies must always grow ( or regress) organically, and when religion is causing more problems than it is solving, you will soon see a public backlash. If there isn't one there, then I can only assume people are either happy with their lot, or they blame other factors rather than religion for whatever makes them discontent.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes.

Pakistan, where you can get away for months on end after raping children and beating them but if you dare propose in public, you will get banned.

If there was a public video of a child being raped, do you think the perpetrator could get away with it?

 

[dildilpak]

If there was a public video of a child being raped, do you think the perpetrator could get away with it?

Maybe yes, if the perp was an influential ‘religious’ leader!
But do we really have to wait for a video? What about the 11 year olds ‘converted & married’?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Maybe yes, if the perp was an influential ‘religious’ leader!
But do we really have to wait for a video? What about the 11 year olds ‘converted & married’?

I would suggest there needs to be some serious discussion about why that's considered acceptable. Is it because some areas of Pakistan are still so backward they still follow medieval traditions?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Well, as a western born and bred, my mindset is definitely more set in western ways so I personally would agree with you on many points. That said, as a westerner with a liberal mindset, I also appreciate that different cultures have their own values so I don't generally try to impose my ideas on them. Luckily for me, my family in Pakistan are very decent, law abiding, and not judgemental, and in many ways they are more tolerant of our ways than I am of theirs. I guess I am lucky that my quite large family in Pakistan all seem to be decent people, unlike the experiences of saeedhk and perhaps yourself.

I think Pakistan will change when Pakistanis are ready to change, and that is how it should be. Societies must always grow ( or regress) organically, and when religion is causing more problems than it is solving, you will soon see a public backlash. If there isn't one there, then I can only assume people are either happy with their lot, or they blame other factors rather than religion for whatever makes them discontent.

As someone who leans left I fully understand that not everyone thinks alike and people should be free to follow whatever religion or ideology they want to. But unfortunately here its the right that happens to be the one enforcing their view on the others.

At any rate, I agree with you. Societies ultimately represent their people and have to change organically. Unfortunately the one element that can eradicate many of these problems: education, is not given enough attention. Pakistan's public expenditure on education as a percentage to GDP is estimated at a miniscule 2.3% and seems to get lesser every year.

I think its both. I get a sense that they are both content and willing to blame other factors. What can I say, it is what it is.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The difference between left and right is hanging on to conservative values which are in majority cases religious values. If you fail to see that with the abortion issues, I am afraid you have very little knowledge of its background. It’s extremely religious in nature. Most of America is extremely religious and conservative in nature as compared to the rest of the west. You just have to study the history of US and the first colonists to understand why that’s the case. And the only reason I used state level is because that’s how the US works. Unlike other countries most of these decisions are made at state level first and that fact has no overall bearing for n this discussion. You are also wrong when you say it doesn’t have any impact on legislature. IT DoES. Of course it does. Abortion is illegal in some states. If you want it legalized you have to go through legislature. When majority states have a change in law then the federal courts get involved. But the way US works, federal courts and the President directly have little say in the matters at the state level but I will reiterate, this dynamic has overall no bearing on the argument that Americans by and large are religious people and their religious bias and values do impact the laws and governance of the land.

You would be naive to completely ignore this fact in hour somewhat skewed idea of the west being superior over us because of their “irreligiosity” which is completely untrue when it comes to the US.

The difference is they don’t impose these ideas through riots (well unless you consider Trumpers as your typical conservatives which they are not) whereas in our part of the world, we have idiots like Khadim Hussein and others who want to go around damaging properties and hurting people.

But going back to the topic, I do agree with you strongly that sooner or later we will have to decide and we will come to a point where we will outgrow these tendencies.
I think that’s the part of overall human evolution/national evolution. Years ago Muslim women HAD to be covered head to toe, now it’s generally acceptable a woman can be a good Muslim even if her face and hair shows in public. Similarly, we may come around to a stage where our people realize it makes more sense to move away from Sharia laws and towards the secular direction. But it all depends on overall growth of the people. I think saudis, to use as an example, did not grow much because they never felt the need to. Oil basically gave them all the riches and they didn’t need to conform, or be flexible for socioeconomic reasons, which is why they are still stuck in the old ways.
Pakistanis were never hardcore religious people we just like to pretend we are and act like we are... so there is still hope!

Thanks for that primer on US History. But you needn't indulge because I have studied US History. And sorry but you're wrong. From the outset, I have been talking about the central legislature, Washington, the Beltway; whatever you want to call it. The American state remains secular to this day. You seem to know so much about American history so maybe you should take a look at the US Constitution too.

And I never said religion was not ingrained in the lives of people; it is. But it also isn't in the lives of many others. You can say that the South is conservative and religious but you can't say that all Republicans are devout Christians. America is a deeply divided country but Christianity is rarely a cause of division. Abortion may be framed as a religious issue by conservatives but liberals don't see it as a religious issue. On top of that America is home to millions who follow in different religions. But tell me, do you recall an economist being kicked out of his job because he was Eastern Orthodox and his peers did not consider him to be a Christian? Or when a far-right priest blocked the roads in Washington DC for two days, and the government couldn't do anything about it? Tell me how many apostates are languishing is US prisons?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The difference between left and right is hanging on to conservative values which are in majority cases religious values. If you fail to see that with the abortion issues, I am afraid you have very little knowledge of its background. It’s extremely religious in nature. Most of America is extremely religious and conservative in nature as compared to the rest of the west. You just have to study the history of US and the first colonists to understand why that’s the case. And the only reason I used state level is because that’s how the US works. Unlike other countries most of these decisions are made at state level first and that fact has no overall bearing for n this discussion. You are also wrong when you say it doesn’t have any impact on legislature. IT DoES. Of course it does. Abortion is illegal in some states. If you want it legalized you have to go through legislature. When majority states have a change in law then the federal courts get involved. But the way US works, federal courts and the President directly have little say in the matters at the state level but I will reiterate, this dynamic has overall no bearing on the argument that Americans by and large are religious people and their religious bias and values do impact the laws and governance of the land.

You would be naive to completely ignore this fact in hour somewhat skewed idea of the west being superior over us because of their “irreligiosity” which is completely untrue when it comes to the US.

The difference is they don’t impose these ideas through riots (well unless you consider Trumpers as your typical conservatives which they are not) whereas in our part of the world, we have idiots like Khadim Hussein and others who want to go around damaging properties and hurting people.

But going back to the topic, I do agree with you strongly that sooner or later we will have to decide and we will come to a point where we will outgrow these tendencies.
I think that’s the part of overall human evolution/national evolution. Years ago Muslim women HAD to be covered head to toe, now it’s generally acceptable a woman can be a good Muslim even if her face and hair shows in public. Similarly, we may come around to a stage where our people realize it makes more sense to move away from Sharia laws and towards the secular direction. But it all depends on overall growth of the people. I think saudis, to use as an example, did not grow much because they never felt the need to. Oil basically gave them all the riches and they didn’t need to conform, or be flexible for socioeconomic reasons, which is why they are still stuck in the old ways.
Pakistanis were never hardcore religious people we just like to pretend we are and act like we are... so there is still hope!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Because if you can't see that the excessive use of religion is what causes it to be misused and distorted in the first place than that is your problem, not mine.

And thing is, eventhough I believe in secularism I don't care if Pakistan becomes a secular state or not. However I do care when women are marginalized and held back because of backward conservative cultural norms. I do care that innocent people are wrongly branded as blasphemers. I do care that religious minorities are treated as second class citizens and regularly the target of violence.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If there was a public video of a child being raped, do you think the perpetrator could get away with it?

You would be surprised what people can get away with here.

I'll tell you a personal example from my own life. Last year, the bother in law of a very close friend of mine had a disagreement with another person on the road. The other person was a kid no older than 20, while my friend's brother-in-law was over 30. As they stopped talking and my friends bother in law started going back towards the car, the kid reversed his car in full speed and hit him with full force. My friends bother in law barely survived. And his wife (my friends sister) had to drive him to a hospital as he laid unconscious bleeding profusely from the head. At this point its important to mention that the entire thing was caught on tape thanks to the security cameras.

Both my friends brother in law and the kid who hit him belong to Army families. Immediately after this thing happened the kid's family sent him abroad to lay low. One year on, the case reached the courts and the kid's family won the case with all charges dropped eventhough there was clear evidence of the kid running over my friend's brother in law. Not only that but they are threatening to sue for defamation. That is the level of justice in Pakistan. And mind you, here no family is poor. The family of my friends brother in law would qualify as upper middle class. So imagine what is the level of justice for the poor.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Because if you can't see that the excessive use of religion is what causes it to be misused and distorted in the first place than that is your problem, not mine.

And thing is, eventhough I believe in secularism I don't care if Pakistan becomes a secular state or not. However I do care when women are marginalized and held back because of backward conservative cultural norms. I do care that innocent people are wrongly branded as blasphemers. I do care that religious minorities are treated as second class citizens and regularly the target of violence.

In my book raping a child isn't excessive use of religion, it's something else altogether.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You would be surprised what people can get away with here.

I'll tell you a personal example from my own life. Last year, the bother in law of a very close friend of mine had a disagreement with another person on the road. The other person was a kid no older than 20, while my friend's brother-in-law was over 30. As they stopped talking and my friends bother in law started going back towards the car, the kid reversed his car in full speed and hit him with full force. My friends bother in law barely survived. And his wife (my friends sister) had to drive him to a hospital as he laid unconscious bleeding profusely from the head. At this point its important to mention that the entire thing was caught on tape thanks to the security cameras.

Both my friends brother in law and the kid who hit him belong to Army families. Immediately after this thing happened the kid's family sent him abroad to lay low. One year on, the case reached the courts and the kid's family won the case with all charges dropped eventhough there was clear evidence of the kid running over my friend's brother in law. Not only that but they are threatening to sue for defamation. That is the level of justice in Pakistan. And mind you, here no family is poor. The family of my friends brother in law would qualify as upper middle class. So imagine what is the level of justice for the poor.

Yes I am well aware of how justice works in Pakistan, hence the user name. It's a jungle and those at the top of the food chain make their own rules. When the leaders of the country themselves are using public funds to build assets outside the country it's no surprise it filters down to the rest of the society.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

In my book raping a child isn't excessive use of religion, it's something else altogether.

I was responding to OP's argument. Quoted you by mistake.

 

[topspin]

I think religion is embedded a little too much in Pakistani society. It is part of every facet of life. Common sense and rationality is far too often, trumped by religion. One example from recent times is the case of not closing mosques during peak COVID outbreak. Because the government simply did not have the gall to go against the mullahs. This was a time when even Saudi Arabia had stopped Hajj and Umrah. Even these days when we are experiencing the third wave here in Pakistan and cases are spiking everyday; however seemingly rational people that I personally know are going to mosques five times a day, everyday.

Nobody can have an honest conversation about religion things like the blasphemy law. Because I cannot tell you how many times seemingly average that I have known have turned out to be closet extremists.

Liberal ideas are regularly attacked. Just one example is that of the Women's March which was organized for the first time a couple of years ago. Its no secret that women are highly marginalized in Pakistan. Besides being subjected to violence in the form of acid attacks, honor killings, domestic abuse and harassment in all walks of life; there is a massive disparity in regards to economic integration between men and women in Pakistan. And women donot have much economic freedom. Just look at the World Gender Wage Gap Index where Pakistan ranks 151 out of 153 countries. And mind you, this is not the case in India and Bangladesh where women have much greater economic freedom and contribute significantly to the economy.

Rather than focus on these issues which are a bane to our progress as a society (and are being highlighted by the march), the mainstream media have called the march an 'assault on our traditional values' and needlessly focused on specific placards to distract away from the actual idea of the march. Whereas religious zealots have not only tried their very best to stamp charges of blasphemy on the protestors but also resorted to pelting them with stones on numerous occasions.

And funny thing is if you ask average Pakistani men about the position of women in society they will confidently tell you about how they always give up their place in a line for a lady.

And its the little things too. Like for example, two times now TikTok has been banned here because it spreads "immorality". These unaware fools donot realize that TikTok has become a source of earning for many poor content creators, who have used their creativity to economically uplift themselves.

Last year the release of a film Zindagi Tamasha was cancelled because religious zealots did not like the trailer and thought it was an attack on religion, without even seeing the film. The film is yet to be released but was somehow Pakistan's official submission at the Oscars.

If you look at Pakistan today we are absolutely nowhere in the fields of science and technology. Rather than focusing on these areas people are fixated on only one thing: religion. I live in Rawalpindi and the case of religious extremists from the TLP blocking the main highway to Islamabad has become a bi-annual occurrence. Their latest reason was that because those blasphemous cartoon were published by Charlie Hebdo therefore Pakistan should expel the French ambassador. And the state does not have the guts to take on them. They usually just bow down to their demands.

Even though our views on selections for the Pakistan cricket team might be different, I want to acknowledge what a brilliant post this is.

It fills me with great sadness of how regressive and backwards Pakistan has become. But there is always a glimmer of hope when there are home based Pakistanis like yourself who are able to think freely and objectively.

When religion is seeping into all aspects of everyday life that's when you know uniting people merely by religion simply doesn't work.

A case in point is the lack of acceptance for Abdus Salam all because he was an Ahmedi. How can we progress in science and technology when we cannot value meritocracy above someone's religious beliefs.

There was also that Ivy league economist, who was also an Ahmedi. He was originally appointed by IK and this obviously caused an uproar among the Mullahs and closest extremists that we have in Pakistan. IK had a spine of a jelly and bowed down to their demands.

Unfortunately our people look up to Mullahs who have no idea how to apply the principles of Islam, rather than Quaid-e-Azam and Edhi.

 

[ManFan]

If there was a public video of a child being raped, do you think the perpetrator could get away with it?

I’ve seen from first-hand experience, teachers breaking both legs of their child students (Im talking under 10 years old) and getting away with it.

Children in my community have been kidnapped and my cousin was VERY lucky not to get kidnapped.

There is simply no protection for children. It’s the Wild West.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Even though our views on selections for the Pakistan cricket team might be different, I want to acknowledge what a brilliant post this is.

It fills me with great sadness of how regressive and backwards Pakistan has become. But there is always a glimmer of hope when there are home based Pakistanis like yourself who are able to think freely and objectively.

When religion is seeping into all aspects of everyday life that's when you know uniting people merely by religion simply doesn't work.

A case in point is the lack of acceptance for Abdus Salam all because he was an Ahmedi. How can we progress in science and technology when we cannot value meritocracy above someone's religious beliefs.

There was also that Ivy league economist, who was also an Ahmedi. He was originally appointed by IK and this obviously caused an uproar among the Mullahs and closest extremists that we have in Pakistan. IK had a spine of a jelly and bowed down to their demands.

Unfortunately our people look up to Mullahs who have no idea how to apply the principles of Islam, rather than Quaid-e-Azam and Edhi.

Thank you. I appreciate your response. The treatment of Dr. Abdus Salam is an issue that is particularly sad for me personally. A man who should be a source of immense pride for our nation and is renowned the world over is only seen through the prism of being Ahmedi.

Thing is, until we are not ready to have honest conversations about all these things, nothing will change. The onus for change always lies on the people. And from what I see the vast majority of people think everything is a-okay.

 

[Stewie]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Because if you can't see that the excessive use of religion is what causes it to be misused and distorted in the first place than that is your problem, not mine.

And thing is, eventhough I believe in secularism I don't care if Pakistan becomes a secular state or not. However I do care when women are marginalized and held back because of backward conservative cultural norms. I do care that innocent people are wrongly branded as blasphemers. I do care that religious minorities are treated as second class citizens and regularly the target of violence.

Going by your response, I can easily tell you actually did not read a word of what i said. Because I for a fact know that my post is not advocating use of "excessive religion" as you so eloquently put.
lol

Unlike you, I tend to read what you wrote carefully. Now you are talking something completely different. Now are you are talking about marginalization of women. and blasphemy laws, and those are not the topics we have been discussing so far.

They have nothing to do with pakistanis of opposite sex hugging each other engaging in PDA. You want to discuss marginalization of women and blasphemy laws, open a separate thread.

 

[dildilpak]

I would suggest there needs to be some serious discussion about why that's considered acceptable. Is it because some areas of Pakistan are still so backward they still follow medieval traditions?

Some backward areas? These conversion marriages also happen in Karachi & other cities. Minor protection is practically absent in all areas.

The issue is that people in Pakistan have their priorities wrong - instead of looking at the mirror & correcting the issues within the society they are more focused on condemning two youngsters in love who have absolutely done no crime.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Some backward areas? These conversion marriages also happen in Karachi & other cities. Minor protection is practically absent in all areas.

The issue is that people in Pakistan have their priorities wrong - instead of looking at the mirror & correcting the issues within the society they are more focused on condemning two youngsters in love who have absolutely done no crime.

Yes, this is why I said there needs to be some serious discussion about why people look the other way. Minor protection is certainly a lot more important than this romcom video, although the two issues are not really connected.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Going by your response, I can easily tell you actually did not read a word of what i said. Because I for a fact know that my post is not advocating use of "excessive religion" as you so eloquently put.
lol

Unlike you, I tend to read what you wrote carefully. Now you are talking something completely different. Now are you are talking about marginalization of women. and blasphemy laws, and those are not the topics we have been discussing so far.

They have nothing to do with pakistanis of opposite sex hugging each other engaging in PDA. You want to discuss marginalization of women and blasphemy laws, open a separate thread.

You have some gall accusing me of not staying on-topic when you have discussed 5-10 different things in one post. The irony is clearly lost on you.

Did I read everything you wrote? Absolutely. But to be fairly honest the lack of focus with which you wrote meant I didn't remember alot of the things you said by the time I was finished writing my reply. Don't think I can be blamed for that.

And its not my fault that you can't connect the dots. Religion is connected to alot of the things I mentioned. Because whenever people see something they don't like or something that doesn't suit their line of thinking they use religion to condemn it. It doesn't matter whether religion itself condemns these things or not. But anyway, I am not going to bother repeating everything I have already said any longer. I just don't have the energy to keep writing these long paragraphs. If you still have trouble connecting the dots maybe you should go back and carefully read what I wrote once again.

 

[Stewie]

I think we are straying from the subject or doing a completely inaccurate amalgamation of different standards here. Other issues notwithstanding, the blowback to this case is justified if people with young daughters and sisters do not want them being peer pressured or socially influenced into such actions. I personally wouldn’t care if a couple wants to do that in their personal lives but I also reverse the right to say it is wrong if it being done in public and shared across the board on social media.