Virat Kohli’s legacy will be shaped by upcoming overseas tours

[giri26]

Virat Kohli took over the captaincy from MS Dhoni during the Australian tour in 2014/15 when the latter decided to retire in the middle of an overseas tour.

Kohli though impressed one and all with his aggressive mindset and almost pulled off an unlikely chase in his first game as captain.

Since that tour though India have predominantly played at home and the South African tour early next year will be the Indian captain’s first real challenge.

Virat Kohli has had a great run as captain of the side over the last couple of years but most of his series wins have come at home except for three away series wins in Sri Lanka and West Indies.

Even though his start as the Test captain of India has been brilliant Virat knows that the next year and a half will determine his legacy as the leader.

The first big test for Virat will be to make the right selections in the test X1. The team management has been criticized a lot recently for their bizarre selection policies. The captain himself has made some questionable statements regarding the same.

The recent Test series against Sri Lanka also gave us a peek into those selections which probably might come back to bite India when they travel outside Asia.

The biggest decision Virat has to make is to decide who his two openers will be. His preference for Shikhar Dhawan seems apparent but again KL Rahul has done nothing wrong to be dropped from the team.

Murali Vijay who made a comeback to the XI has sealed his spot with a couple of hundreds so it leaves a battle between KL Rahul and Shikhar Dhawan for the second opener spot.

The management needs to determine who among the two will make the right choice for the conditions they are playing in.

The other decision the captain has to make is whether to play six batsmen or not. He preferred Rohit Sharma in the X1 against Sri Lanka and played only four bowlers at home.

The decision probably stemmed from the absence of Hardik Pandya but again, it will be interesting to see what combination the captain decides to play in South Africa.

The other spot which has been a topic of interest in the spin bowling spot in the X1. India have Ravi Ashwin, Ravi Jadeja and Kuldeep Yadav as the three spinners and the team management has to make a call as to who they want in the X1.

The pace attack seems settled as Bhuvneshwar Kumar will return after a break and him along with Mohammed Shami and Ishant Sharma will most likely play the first test in South Africa.

There are lots of questions in front of the team management and there wasn’t any effort to address these concerns in the just concluded series.

Virat Kohli will know that he needs to make the right decisions as the captain of the side to have a chance to challenge a strong South African outfit which will be boosted by the arrival of AB De Villiers and Dale Steyn.

The young Indian team will be on the road for next year and a half and will tour England, Australia New Zealand and South Africa. It is not going to be easy for Virat’s team but again if the captain makes the right calls this team does have the capability to cause a few upsets.

Article by [MENTION=25545]giri26[/MENTION]

 

[Tusker]

Away records of no other teams get as minutely scrutinized as India's Nobody in Aus gave a rats behind when Aus lost 3-Zip to freakin SL nor was much said when both Eng and Aus lost a test each to the mighty BD. This fixation to undermine our own achievements and shoot ourselves in the foot is pretty unique amongst Indians.

But the usual suspects will be chomping at the bit to come out of the wood works to have their minutes of fame ... they will also be praying fervently to their fav sky god that their wishes of Indian defeat come true.

 

[giri26]

Away records of no other teams get as minutely scrutinized as India's Nobody in Aus gave a rats behind when Aus lost 3-Zip to freakin SL nor was much said when both Eng and Aus lost a test each to the mighty BD. This fixation to undermine our own achievements and shoot ourselves in the foot is pretty unique amongst Indians.

But the usual suspects will be chomping at the bit to come out of the wood works to have their minutes of fame ... they will also be praying fervently to their fav sky god that their wishes of Indian defeat come true.

I am an Indian fan and I want India to win overseas. What's wrong in that? Virat Kohli wants to become the best captain and batsman in the world and he cannot do that unless he leads the team to wins outside subcontinent. Rahul Dravid was a captain for a short time and he led the team to wins in England and West Indies (A WI team which had Lara, Sarwan, Chanders, Gayle, Edwards et all).

This has nothing to do with Dissecting India's overseas record as everyone knows what it is. If you read the article, it talks nothing about India's past overseas records.

 

[Tusker]

I am an Indian fan and I want India to win overseas. What's wrong in that? Virat Kohli wants to become the best captain and batsman in the world and he cannot do that unless he leads the team to wins outside subcontinent.

why is that ? Does that apply equally to all teams ? do you think if Kohli had lost a Test in BD it would be forgotten anytime soon? Its pretty much like saying home wins dont count at all and that they are all "free".

 

[giri26]

why is that ? Does that apply equally to all teams ? do you think if Kohli had lost a Test in BD it would be forgotten anytime soon? Its pretty much like saying home wins dont count at all and that they are all "free".

I don't care about the other teams as I don't support them. I want Virat to be a captain on par with the great captains of the past. Don't care of any of the other captains achieve that feat or not. Please read the article before you start saying things which aren't said. I never said home wins don't count but if India needs to become a great test side, they need to win series outside subcontinent. No team becomes a great side by just winning at home.

 

[Bilal7]

Normally, I would say that if his scores look anything other than a string of binary digits, it should be applauded. He has up until now proven to be almost as big a bunny against swing and seam as Rohit, who is THE FTB of this generation.

However, he has tweaked his technique a little and has generously been given some time off which will help him immensely from a mental perspective. He will also have three solid batsmen batting above him in the Indian batting order and all this should help him score a few runs.

In terms of the team's results, I would be surprised if India don't draw a few games.

 

[Bilal7]

I don't care about the other teams as I don't support them. I want Virat to be a captain on par with the great captains of the past. Don't care of any of the other captains achieve that feat or not. Please read the article before you start saying things which aren't said. I never said home wins don't count but if India needs to become a great test side, they need to win series outside subcontinent. No team becomes a great side by just winning at home.

It's a great thread, don't mind the other guy. He's always criticizing posters that don't subscibe to his usual nonsense.

 

[giri26]

It's a great thread, don't mind the other guy. He's always criticizing posters that don't subscibe to his usual nonsense.

Thanks [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]. Sometimes people just read the title and start to go off without understand what the thread is about.

 

[Tusker]

I don't care about the other teams as I don't support them. I want Virat to be a captain on par with the great captains of the past. Don't care of any of the other captains achieve that feat or not. Please read the article before you start saying things which aren't said. I never said home wins don't count but if India needs to become a great test side, they need to win series outside subcontinent. No team becomes a great side by just winning at home.

Are WI and SL now part of India? See the problem ?

Arent Ponting, Steve Waugh and Mark Taylor considered Great captains despite not winning anything in India ? The thing is these are Zabardasti ke standards that we have come to accept for various reasons. There is no need to attach undue importance to wins outside India.

Virat Kohli recognizes this perfectly and has said so in one of the interviews with Nasser Hussain last year when asked about his failures in England. And when he cleaned up England last year he and Ashwin made it a point to rub that in equal measure in Englands face.

 

[Tusker]

Thanks [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]. Sometimes people just read the title and start to go off without understand what the thread is about.

Maybe you should have the title and the subsequent posts in sync then ?

 

[giri26]

Are WI and SL now part of India? See the problem ?

Arent Ponting, Steve Waugh and Mark Taylor considered Great captains despite not winning anything in India ? The thing is these are Zabardasti ke standards that we have come to accept for various reasons. There is no need to attach undue importance to wins outside India.

Virat Kohli recognizes this perfectly and has said so in one of the interviews with Nasser Hussain last year when asked about his failures in England. And when he cleaned up England last year he and Ashwin made it a point to rub that in equal measure in Englands face.

So that means that an Indian fan I should not express my opinion because Mark Taylor and Steve did not win in India? Just one country out of all the test playing nations? Even then, they did eventually win in 2004 albeit after Steven Waugh's retirement. Kohli also wants to win overseas, and he has expressed it multiple times. Azhar had an unbeaten run at home for almost a decade, even though he is probably a great Indian captain, at the world stage he does not come into picture. Don't understand why you have to get so worked up over an opinion piece where I haven't said anything wrong.

Sri Lanka and West Indies were good wins and if you noticed I have mentioned that in the article as well but again unfortunately both those teams aren't strong enough to trouble India in tests.

 

[giri26]

Maybe you should have the title and the subsequent posts in sync then ?

It is in Sync and the post exactly means what it says in the title. Unless you read the article you cannot understand what I mean, which clearly you haven't and have gone completely off tangent. I am out now though.

 

[Tusker]

So that means that an Indian fan I should not express my opinion because Mark Taylor and Steve did not win in India? Just one country out of all the test playing nations? Even then, they did eventually win in 2004 albeit after Steven Waugh's retirement. Kohli also wants to win overseas, and he has expressed it multiple times. Azhar had an unbeaten run at home for almost a decade, even though he is probably a great Indian captain, at the world stage he does not come into picture. Don't understand why you have to get so worked up over an opinion piece where I haven't said anything wrong.

Sri Lanka and West Indies were good wins and if you noticed I have mentioned that in the article as well but again unfortunately both those teams aren't strong enough to trouble India in tests.

None of the Indian Captains "come into Picture" for exactly this fixation of us Desis which is captured very crisply in the desi saying ... "Ghar ki Mugi daal" .

None of the Non-Subcontinent teams where you want to win have a similar fixation.

PS: Ponting lost EVERY single Test in India and ended with an avg under 25 ... it never came in the way of his greatness or legacy. Kohli wont get that freepass from his own fans. Think over it.

And Iam not worked up.

 

[kingusama92]

His captaincy will indeed be shaped by the upcoming overseas tours.

Batting is less of an issue. He's done well in Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. England will be the tour that he's eager about.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Away records of no other teams get as minutely scrutinized as India's Nobody in Aus gave a rats behind when Aus lost 3-Zip to freakin SL nor was much said when both Eng and Aus lost a test each to the mighty BD. This fixation to undermine our own achievements and shoot ourselves in the foot is pretty unique amongst Indians.

But the usual suspects will be chomping at the bit to come out of the wood works to have their minutes of fame ... they will also be praying fervently to their fav sky god that their wishes of Indian defeat come true.

This! You spoke my heart out! Never saw these threads when Pak got whitewashed by Rookie Lankan team in UAE and Aus in SL. But this kind of microscopic FBI level analysis pops up from nowhere when India is touring. Rubbish thread !

 

[giri26]

This! You spoke my heart out! Never saw these threads when Pak got whitewashed by Rookie Lankan team in UAE and Aus in SL. But this kind of microscopic FBI level analysis pops up from nowhere when India is touring. Rubbish thread !

This thread is created by an Indian who loves Indian cricket and wants his team to go to the next level. Just because the fans of other countries don't create such threads does not mean we should not expect good performances in SA, England and Australia. If Australia did not think that winning in India is not important then they would not have called it their final frontier. We are talking about a team which has never won in Australia or South Africa in their history. So what is wrong in hoping for a win? Should we just give up winning in these countries? I haven't done any analysis if you read the post, which you haven't obviously. The only point of the thread was if India picked the right men, they could win in those countries. No point in responding to posters who don't even take a minute to read what has been written. So I am over and out.

This is an opinion piece, I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. I will leave it at that. You cannot call my opinion rubbish.

 

[Buffet]

He has done fine in SA earlier as batsman so nothing to see there.

Captaincy is surely going to be defined by how he does in tours.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Normally, I would say that if his scores look anything other than a string of binary digits, it should be applauded. He has up until now proven to be almost as big a bunny against swing and seam as Rohit, who is THE FTB of this generation.

However, he has tweaked his technique a little and has generously been given some time off which will help him immensely from a mental perspective. He will also have three solid batsmen batting above him in the Indian batting order and all this should help him score a few runs.

In terms of the team's results, I would be surprised if India don't draw a few games.

Last time Virat toured SA he got a century there,so your point of binary scores is irrelevant and vague.He even has a century against nz in nz.Rohit is much better than any pakistani odi batsmen currently.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

India will win a few overseas tests if they opt for a more attacking spinner. With Pandya they will have access to four seam bowling options, just need to get done with the holding spinner job and use it as an attacking option.

Kohli will be positive, it's just to see if he remains positive if the first tour doesn't go according to plan.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

As a batsman, his legacy was already shaped by his incredible run of overseas tours in 2013-14 when he dominated all conditions except England.

 

[ind_win]

atleast he is not a quitter like dhoni (in tests) who abandoned the ship in the middle of Aus tour

 

[bantu]

This thread is created by an Indian who loves Indian cricket and wants his team to go to the next level. Just because the fans of other countries don't create such threads does not mean we should not expect good performances in SA, England and Australia. If Australia did not think that winning in India is not important then they would not have called it their final frontier. We are talking about a team which has never won in Australia or South Africa in their history. So what is wrong in hoping for a win? Should we just give up winning in these countries? I haven't done any analysis if you read the post, which you haven't obviously. The only point of the thread was if India picked the right men, they could win in those countries. No point in responding to posters who don't even take a minute to read what has been written. So I am over and out.

This is an opinion piece, I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. I will leave it at that. You cannot call my opinion rubbish.

You keep saying that as an Indian all you want Virat Kohli to do well and win everywhere... that is fine and all Indians will agree with that.. but the problem is your thread says that Virat’s legacy will be decided by these away tours ( which is not the same criteria used for other great captains) ..

 

[Hasan123]

Needs to improve in England and maintain his previous performances in NZ, South Africa, and Australia to cement his legacy in tests. He will impact games in Asia, needs to try and do it overseas. I think India's main problem overseas will be getting 20 wickets.

 

[Dead Ball]

Even if Kohli scores 1000 runs in a series in SA or Aus, India wont win with the incompetent bunch of pacers.

I am waiting to see Kohli in England.

 

[Tusker]

This! You spoke my heart out! Never saw these threads when Pak got whitewashed by Rookie Lankan team in UAE and Aus in SL. But this kind of microscopic FBI level analysis pops up from nowhere when India is touring. Rubbish thread !

Thanks!

You keep saying that as an Indian all you want Virat Kohli to do well and win everywhere... that is fine and all Indians will agree with that.. but the problem is your thread says that Virat’s legacy will be decided by these away tours ( which is not the same criteria used for other great captains) ..

Exactly. Almost as if home wins are all free gifts from visiting teams to appease the hosts.

 

[jagatk]

Normally, I would say that if his scores look anything other than a string of binary digits, it should be applauded. He has up until now proven to be almost as big a bunny against swing and seam as Rohit, who is THE FTB of this generation.

However, he has tweaked his technique a little and has generously been given some time off which will help him immensely from a mental perspective. He will also have three solid batsmen batting above him in the Indian batting order and all this should help him score a few runs.

In terms of the team's results, I would be surprised if India don't draw a few games.

Agree an average of 60+ in both SA and NZ clearly shows he is an ftb, fantastic analysis.

 

[jagatk]

Needs to improve in England and maintain his previous performances in NZ, South Africa, and Australia to cement his legacy in tests. He will impact games in Asia, needs to try and do it overseas. I think India's main problem overseas will be getting 20 wickets.

Why is it, Ricky ponting gets called an atg by one and all averages 26 in India and it is not based on 1 bad series, he never needed to prove anything. Why are Indian batsman judged differently from others.

 

[Buffet]

Why is it, Ricky ponting gets called an atg by one and all averages 26 in India and it is not based on 1 bad series, he never needed to prove anything. Why are Indian batsman judged differently from others.

Ponting would have gone as a better batsman in history for me if he had good performance in India as well. Similarly, If Kohli does well in all venues then he will go down as a better batsman. Not sure why many of you are arguing this simple fact.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Ponting would have gone as a better batsman in history for me if he had good performance in India as well. Similarly, If Kohli does well in all venues then he will go down as a better batsman. Not sure why many of you are arguing this simple fact.

The fact is that no one calls ricky a failure just because of not performing in india. So why is it important for virat to score in england to be named a good batsman. Many posters say that they will not acknowledge him as a batsman until he proves him in england.
But there is nothing wrong with this thread we as virat's fan want him to shut mouths of all his haters just like sachin did.

 

[jagatk]

Ponting would have gone as a better batsman in history for me if he had good performance in India as well. Similarly, If Kohli does well in all venues then he will go down as a better batsman. Not sure why many of you are arguing this simple fact.

Point isn't whether he is or is not a better bastman, but the fact that failing in 1 series in england earns you a ftb tag but failing in india at every chance you got doesn't stop you from being called atg. Why the hypocrisy is my issue.

 

[Buffet]

The fact is that no one calls ricky a failure just because of not performing in india. So why is it important for virat to score in england to be named a good batsman. Many posters say that they will not acknowledge him as a batsman until he proves him in england.
But there is nothing wrong with this thread we as virat's fan want him to shut mouths of all his haters just like sachin did.

If he has multiple tours of all venues and does well in those torus then failing in Eng is not going to make him a poor batsman. You are reading too much into few isolated comments in PP.

 

[Ab Fan]

As a captain- yes. 100% agreed.

As a batsmen- again yes but its a case with everyone. Overseas is a tough nut to crack for everyone.

What is to be seen is that whether this no.1 side can do anything magical which seperates this team from older ones or not?

Till now they have been unbeatable at home which however has happened in past too.

 

[Hasan123]

Why is it, Ricky ponting gets called an atg by one and all averages 26 in India and it is not based on 1 bad series, he never needed to prove anything. Why are Indian batsman judged differently from others.

Ponting is still a brilliant batsmen but not performing in India is a factor in him not being as good as Lara and Sachin for me.

I don't judge Indian batsmen from others, if Kohli fails badly than he will get called HTB and rightly so. Most batsmen who fail overseas are rated less highly than ones who perform away from home.

 

[Bilal7]

Point isn't whether he is or is not a better bastman, but the fact that failing in 1 series in england earns you a ftb tag but failing in india at every chance you got doesn't stop you from being called atg. Why the hypocrisy is my issue.

It's not just one series in England. He has failed every time he has come up against swing and seam in test and 50 overs cricket, barring one or two innings.

The only time he played tests in South Africa, the pitch was so flat that South Africa nearly pulled off the highest run chase of all time. It remains to be seen whether Kohli has finally learnt how to play the moving ball or if it is still hid Achilles' heel.

 

[Bilal7]

Dravid, Ponting, Miandad, Inzamam, Clarke, Jayawardene have all been criticized for their away records so Kohli fans need to stop their whinging.

 

[maxamax]

He's so much hyped now that even below-average performance would drag him to ATG.

 

[maxamax]

As a captain- yes. 100% agreed.

As a batsmen- again yes but its a case with everyone. Overseas is a tough nut to crack for everyone.

What is to be seen is that whether this no.1 side can do anything magical which seperates this team from older ones or not?

Till now they have been unbeatable at home which however has happened in past too.

Previous players never seemed like a joke in front of swing. Look at Gavasker, Tendulkar.

 

[kingusama92]

He's so much hyped now that even below-average performance would drag him to ATG.

Where has he been below average other than England?

In AUS: 62.00 AVG
In NZ: 71.33 AVG
In SA: 68.00 AVG

These are all bowler-friendly countries and he's done well.

If a PAK batsman would do this, we'd be parading him around PP as Don Bradman.

 

[Bilal7]

Where has he been below average other than England?

In AUS: 62.00 AVG
In NZ: 71.33 AVG
In SA: 68.00 AVG

These are all bowler-friendly countries and he's done well.

If a PAK batsman would do this, we'd be parading him around PP as Don Bradman.

A total of four matches in New Zealand and South Africa is hardly a reason to hold a parade.

 

[kingusama92]

A total of four matches in New Zealand and South Africa is hardly a reason to hold a parade.

But 5 matches in England is enough for a stoning?

 

[Bilal7]

But 5 matches in England is enough for a stoning?

Have you watched his entire career? It is not his performances in England that get criticized but his performances against the moving ball. He's failed almost every time the ball has moved an inch. Whether the opponent be Sri Lanka or South Africa, in tests or ODIs. Those tests in England are simply a prime example, not the whole argument.

 

[Mr.Q]

Nice. The OP talks about his captaincy and what he needs to do as a captain but people have already turned it into a discussion on away average. Sad.

I see the coming overseas tours as an opportunity for him to polish up his captaincy. I don't think his captaincy has reached a level of saturation yet so I'd wait and see how he develops as a captain. I'm not sure if we should call the SA tour legacy defining or something like that.

 

[giri26]

Nice. The OP talks about his captaincy and what he needs to do as a captain but people have already turned it into a discussion on away average. Sad.

I see the coming overseas tours as an opportunity for him to polish up his captaincy. I don't think his captaincy has reached a level of saturation yet so I'd wait and see how he develops as a captain. I'm not sure if we should call the SA tour legacy defining or something like that.

Thank you. Finally someone actually gets the point of the article after 41 posts. Thanks very much for that and yes, I am also very intrigued to see how he develops as a captain on this overseas tours and how he tackles tough situations.

 

[Hasan123]

Virat Kohli took over the captaincy from MS Dhoni during the Australian tour in 2014/15 when the latter decided to retire in the middle of an overseas tour.

Kohli though impressed one and all with his aggressive mindset and almost pulled off an unlikely chase in his first game as captain.

Since that tour though India have predominantly played at home and the South African tour early next year will be the Indian captain’s first real challenge.

Virat Kohli has had a great run as captain of the side over the last couple of years but most of his series wins have come at home except for three away series wins in Sri Lanka and West Indies.

Even though his start as the Test captain of India has been brilliant Virat knows that the next year and a half will determine his legacy as the leader.

The first big test for Virat will be to make the right selections in the test X1. The team management has been criticized a lot recently for their bizarre selection policies. The captain himself has made some questionable statements regarding the same.

The recent Test series against Sri Lanka also gave us a peek into those selections which probably might come back to bite India when they travel outside Asia.

The biggest decision Virat has to make is to decide who his two openers will be. His preference for Shikhar Dhawan seems apparent but again KL Rahul has done nothing wrong to be dropped from the team.

Murali Vijay who made a comeback to the XI has sealed his spot with a couple of hundreds so it leaves a battle between KL Rahul and Shikhar Dhawan for the second opener spot.

The management needs to determine who among the two will make the right choice for the conditions they are playing in.

The other decision the captain has to make is whether to play six batsmen or not. He preferred Rohit Sharma in the X1 against Sri Lanka and played only four bowlers at home.

The decision probably stemmed from the absence of Hardik Pandya but again, it will be interesting to see what combination the captain decides to play in South Africa.

The other spot which has been a topic of interest in the spin bowling spot in the X1. India have Ravi Ashwin, Ravi Jadeja and Kuldeep Yadav as the three spinners and the team management has to make a call as to who they want in the X1.

The pace attack seems settled as Bhuvneshwar Kumar will return after a break and him along with Mohammed Shami and Ishant Sharma will most likely play the first test in South Africa.

There are lots of questions in front of the team management and there wasn’t any effort to address these concerns in the just concluded series.

Virat Kohli will know that he needs to make the right decisions as the captain of the side to have a chance to challenge a strong South African outfit which will be boosted by the arrival of AB De Villiers and Dale Steyn.

The young Indian team will be on the road for next year and a half and will tour England, Australia New Zealand and South Africa. It is not going to be easy for Virat’s team but again if the captain makes the right calls this team does have the capability to cause a few upsets.

Article by [MENTION=25545]giri26[/MENTION]

Kuldeep isn't in the test squad.

 

[giri26]

Kuldeep isn't in the test squad.

Thanks for pointing it out. I wrote this piece before the squad was announced. But was published after. I wrote this in assumption that he would be picked.

 

[Hasan123]

Thanks for pointing it out. I wrote this piece before the squad was announced. But was published after. I wrote this in assumption that he would be picked.

Surprised he wasn't at least in the squad. He should be in the LO squad, so we'll see what he can do outside of Asia.

 

[Tusker]

Have you watched his entire career? It is not his performances in England that get criticized but his performances against the moving ball. He's failed almost every time the ball has moved an inch. Whether the opponent be Sri Lanka or South Africa, in tests or ODIs. Those tests in England are simply a prime example, not the whole argument.

That's because in your (circular ) logic he can never score.... therefore you deal with it by declaring that the ball never moved a millimeter whenever he made runs.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Have you watched his entire career? It is not his performances in England that get criticized but his performances against the moving ball. He's failed almost every time the ball has moved an inch. Whether the opponent be Sri Lanka or South Africa, in tests or ODIs. Those tests in England are simply a prime example, not the whole argument.

He got an excellent hundred in SA in Joburg back in 2013 tour on day 1 when the pitch was seaming. Great knock against a tough attack when the ball was moving.

 

[jagatk]

Ponting is still a brilliant batsmen but not performing in India is a factor in him not being as good as Lara and Sachin for me.

I don't judge Indian batsmen from others, if Kohli fails badly than he will get called HTB and rightly so. Most batsmen who fail overseas are rated less highly than ones who perform away from home.

So failing in england while succeeding everywhere else makes you htb but failing in india but not elsewhere makes you only atg not goat, sound logic i suppose.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

So what does that mean for Root's legacy?

 

[Cricfan4eva]

The young Indian team will be on the road for next year and a half and will tour England, Australia New Zealand and South Africa. It is not going to be easy for Virat’s team but again if the captain makes the right calls this team does have the capability to cause a few upsets.

Article by [MENTION=25545]giri26[/MENTION]

Sorry mate but this team isn't young Indian team anymore. Dhawan, Vijay are 30 or beyond. Rahane, Rohit and Kohli are 29+. Saha is oldest. Except for Rahul this is a side that is at it's prime.

SA on other hand are on the wrong side of 30s.

If anything aside from the home advantage and bowling attack. India should edge SA on other fronts.

 

[Buffet]

He got an excellent hundred in SA in Joburg back in 2013 tour on day 1 when the pitch was seaming. Great knock against a tough attack when the ball was moving.

That was an excellent knock by Kohli. Ball was moving and SA bowling unit was a top class bowling side. SA batted after Kohli's knock, but Shami, Zaheer and Ishant exploited the conditions very well. SA was bowled out for 244.

Kohli with 119 was top scorer from both sides in first innings. Smith scored 67 runs and Rahane scored 40 odd runs as second best from either side in the first inning. Pitch became a lot easy to bat in second inning.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

That was excellent knock by Kohli. Ball was moving and SA bowling unit was a top class bowling side. SA batted after Kohli's knock, but Shami, Zaheer and Ishant exploited the conditions very well. SA was bowled out for 244.

Kohli with 119 was top scorer from both sides in first innings. Smith scored 67 runs and Rahane scored 40 odd runs as second best from either side in the first inning. Pitch became a lot easy to bat in second inning.

I think by now you should have known that when Kohli scores pitch magically loses its zip and becomes a road...

 

[Chief Destroyer]

I just don't see him failing in England again and that's the only tour that's going to matter.

 

[Buffet]

I just don't see him failing in England again and that's the only tour that's going to matter.

Well, it will be fun time in PP if he fails in Eng

 

[Mamoon]

His legacy has already been shaped. He is one of the greatest and most influential cricketers the game has ever seen, and anything from here on will simply make his legend grow bigger and bigger.

 

[Buffet]

His legacy has already been shaped. He is one of the greatest and most influential cricketers the game has ever seen, and anything from here on will simply make his legend grow bigger and bigger.

Not one of the most influential in history in the test format. He has a lot to do to get that tag in the test format.

 

[R0H1T]

Not one of the most influential in history in the test format. He has a lot to do to get that tag in the test format.

Overall in cricket, the second most influential in the past 30 years ~ if he continues at a similar rate for the next half decade or more.

 

[Mamoon]

Not one of the most influential in history in the test format. He has a lot to do to get that tag in the test format.

It is about his overall career, not just the Test format. He is an ODI ATG already, probably the greatest T20 batsman as well. Arguably the biggest superstar the game has seen as well along with Tendulkar. In Tests alone, he is not an ATG yet, but it is a matter of time and not caliber.

Overall, it is safe to say that he is a legend already, without factoring in his successful captaincy in Tests.

 

[Buffet]

Overall in cricket, the second most influential in the past 30 years ~ if he continues at a similar rate for the next half decade or more.

Steyn, McGrath, Kallis, Murali and all have influenced a lot more test series. Kohli is no where among the most influential list right now as far as the test format goes. You can't even make a case for him.

 

[ManFan]

It is about his overall career, not just the Test format. He is an ODI ATG already, probably the greatest T20 batsman as well. Arguably the biggest superstar the game has seen as well along with Tendulkar. In Tests alone, he is not an ATG yet, but it is a matter of time and not caliber.

Overall, it is safe to say that he is a legend already, without factoring in his successful captaincy in Tests.

Kholi is not a legend yet. Neither has he innovated the game in a way to be influential like Gilchrist. He’s Ponting without the brain fades against spin. Even Ponting played a match-winning innings in the WC and led his team to victory. Ponting is not rated as an ATG and someone like Kholi, who is his inferior atm, cannot be an ATG either. T20 is carnival cricket, as a result, the only format he has had impact on is ODI. Clarke also scored 4 200’s in a calendar year but fell off later. And he played innings that Kholi simply can not. This era has lacked genuine ATG batsman and bowers. Only Steyn has come close. Kholi will always have doubts about his abilities if he doesn’t score heavily in seaming conditions the same way doubts are raised about Dravid and Mindad.

 

[R0H1T]

Steyn, McGrath, Kallis, Murali and all have influenced a lot more test series. Kohli is no where among the most influential list right now as far as the test format goes. You can't even make a case for him.

We are talking influential cricketers, not the best test bowlers ever. In that sense Kohli is peerless in this era, like Sachin was in the 90's partly because they're both from India. If Lara was an Indian I'd argue he would've had even more impact on world cricket, including the commercial aspect of it.

 

[Buffet]

It is about his overall career, not just the Test format.

I can't argue about super start status, but some like McGrath has more influence taken all formats combined than Kohli. I can throw few more names as well, but McGrath is a good example of influencing countless ODIs and Tests.

Yah, Kohli is still playing , but I was simply talking about what he has done so far.

 

[Buffet]

We are talking influential cricketers, not the best test bowlers ever. In that sense Kohli is peerless in this era, like Sachin was in the 90's partly because they're both from India. If Lara was an Indian I'd argue he's have had even more impact on world cricket, including the commercial aspect of it.

Oh, I thought how much influence a cricketer has in the game.

If you talk about commercial aspect then sure, no non-Indian will come close to few Indian names.

 

[Buffet]

Kholi is not a legend yet. Neither has he innovated the game in a way to be influential like Gilchrist. He’s Ponting without the brain fades against spin. Even Ponting played a match-winning innings in the WC and led his team to victory. Ponting is not rated as an ATG and someone like Kholi, who is his inferior atm, cannot be an ATG either. T20 is carnival cricket, as a result, the only format he has had impact on is ODI. Clarke also scored 4 200’s in a calendar year but fell off later. And he played innings that Kholi simply can not. This era has lacked genuine ATG batsman and bowers. Only Steyn has come close. Kholi will always have doubts about his abilities if he doesn’t score heavily in seaming conditions the same way doubts are raised about Dravid and Mindad.

Ponting is not rated as an ATG? First time I am hearing anyone say that.

 

[rashmin]

Have you watched his entire career? It is not his performances in England that get criticized but his performances against the moving ball. He's failed almost every time the ball has moved an inch. Whether the opponent be Sri Lanka or South Africa, in tests or ODIs. Those tests in England are simply a prime example, not the whole argument.

Have you watched his test century in SA? After watching it, make an honest decision whether the ball was moving or not....

 

[Mamoon]

Kholi is not a legend yet. Neither has he innovated the game in a way to be influential like Gilchrist. He’s Ponting without the brain fades against spin. Even Ponting played a match-winning innings in the WC and led his team to victory. Ponting is not rated as an ATG and someone like Kholi, who is his inferior atm, cannot be an ATG either. T20 is carnival cricket, as a result, the only format he has had impact on is ODI. Clarke also scored 4 200’s in a calendar year but fell off later. And he played innings that Kholi simply can not. This era has lacked genuine ATG batsman and bowers. Only Steyn has come close. Kholi will always have doubts about his abilities if he doesn’t score heavily in seaming conditions the same way doubts are raised about Dravid and Mindad.

Ponting is not rated an ATG? by whom? This is the first time I have seen someone make that claim. Sure he is not generally rated in the league of Tendulkar and Lara, but Ponting is every bit an ATG.

Kohli is a legend already. If he retires today, he will still be remembered after 50 years. Pretty much every young batsman growing up today idolizes him This is the Kohli era, just like the 90's was the Sachin era and the 2000s was the Sachin/Lara/Ponting era. The fact that he is one of the biggest superstars - if not the biggest - the game has ever seen is icing on the cake.

He is influential not in an innovative way, but he has raised the bar in his own way - he has taken the art of chasing and taken it to a different level. When you think of the word 'chase', the first name that comes to your mind is Kohli - that is influence. He has redefined chasing totals in ODIs.

Clarke is a poor analogy because he never dominated any format like Kohli has. He never entered the discussion of being one of the greatest batsmen the game has seen in a particular format, let alone do it before entering his peak years.

What sets Kohli apart from the rest is that he has reached a level in ODIs that 99% of the batsmen in history haven't, and he has done it by the age of 29. That is why he has become the giant that he is today.

 

[Mamoon]

I can't argue about super start status, but some like McGrath has more influence taken all formats combined than Kohli. I can throw few more names as well, but McGrath is a good example of influencing countless ODIs and Tests.

Yah, Kohli is still playing , but I was simply talking about what he has done so far.

If Kohli retires today, he will be below McGrath in the pantheons of greats, but I think he is a legend already.

 

[ManFan]

Ponting is not rated an ATG? by whom? This is the first time I have seen someone make that claim. Sure he is not generally rated in the league of Tendulkar and Lara, but Ponting is every bit an ATG.

Kohli is a legend already. If he retires today, he will still be remembered after 50 years. Pretty much every young batsman growing up today idolizes him This is the Kohli era, just like the 90's was the Sachin era and the 2000s was the Sachin/Lara/Ponting era. The fact that he is one of the biggest superstars - if not the biggest - the game has ever seen is icing on the cake.

He is influential not in an innovative way, but he has raised the bar in his own way - he has taken the art of chasing and taken it to a different level. When you think of the word 'chase', the first name that comes to your mind is Kohli - that is influence. He has redefined chasing totals in ODIs.

Clarke is a poor analogy because he never dominated any format like Kohli has. He never entered the discussion of being one of the greatest batsmen the game has seen in a particular format, let alone do it before entering his peak years.

What sets Kohli apart from the rest is that he has reached a level in ODIs that 99% of the batsmen in history haven't, and he has done it by the age of 29. That is why he has become the giant that he is today.

Kholi has not redefined chasing. If anyone did that, it was Bevan 20 years ago. What he has done, is be incredibly consistent in chasing scores. That does not become the equivalent of redefining chasing. Pointing is always mentioned in a league below Lara and Tendulkar becaus of his failures in India. Also, his best innings that he himself regards, 156 against England, was a match-savings innings and not match-winning. I mentioned Clarke because just like Kholi he had a Bradmanesque year in 2012 where he scored multiple 200's. However, like you mentioned he was and is not regarded in the Test ATG. Neither is Kholi despite feasting at home and notching up 200's. Kholi cannot even be considered an ATG in ODI at #3 unless he does what Ponting did in 2003. Whether you like it or not, Kholi is rated highly and rightfully so but is not a legend. At least not right now.

 

[Mamoon]

Kholi has not redefined chasing. If anyone did that, it was Bevan 20 years ago. What he has done, is be incredibly consistent in chasing scores. That does not become the equivalent of redefining chasing. Pointing is always mentioned in a league below Lara and Tendulkar becaus of his failures in India. Also, his best innings that he himself regards, 156 against England, was a match-savings innings and not match-winning. I mentioned Clarke because just like Kholi he had a Bradmanesque year in 2012 where he scored multiple 200's. However, like you mentioned he was and is not regarded in the Test ATG. Neither is Kholi despite feasting at home and notching up 200's. Kholi cannot even be considered an ATG in ODI at #3 unless he does what Ponting did in 2003. Whether you like it or not, Kholi is rated highly and rightfully so but is not a legend. At least not right now.

Well it is not about what I like or not. The fact is that majority of the people in the cricket universe consider Kohli to be an ODI ATG already. Yes he has a couple of kinks in his armory, but so does everyone. If he gets that big World Cup or that iconic World Cup knockout innings, he will pretty much become the GOAT.

Kohli has redefined the art of chasing because he is the first of his kind, i.e. a top-order batsman who is also a brilliant finisher. Neither Bevan nor Dhoni, albeit brilliant finishers, batted in the top 3 for a prolonged period of time.

Cricket has seen many great top-order batsmen and many great finishers, but Kohli is the first top-order batsman who consistently finishes off games as well. He is simply the greatest chaser the game has seen. He is like a Tendulkar and Dhoni rolled into one.

Yes Ponting is rated below Tendulkar and Lara, but that doesn't mean he is not an ATG. Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, S. Waugh, Dravid, Kallis, Sangakkara etc. are all ATGs of the last 20 odd years, and not all of them are obviously at the same level.

Kohli is not a ATG in Tests yet so I don't know why you feel the need to bring up his Test record here. As I said in my previous post, the fact that he has surpassed 99% of the ODI batsmen in history before entering his peak years is the reason why he is rated so highly. Apart from Tendulkar, no one in history has been as good as Kohli at the same age.

He is a certified ATG, and is going to be remembered for generations and generations. There is no doubt about that.

 

[Hasan123]

So failing in england while succeeding everywhere else makes you htb but failing in india but not elsewhere makes you only atg not goat, sound logic i suppose.

If he fails in these overseas tours he will be called a HTB. If he only fails in England, he obviously can't be called a HTB as he's only failed in 1 country.

Don't understand why your getting so upset with me when I'm one of the few Pakistani fans who defend Kohli on this forum.

 

[Sam99]

I don't see rabada or steyn getting virat kohli out early. He is going to get bulk of runs in test series but i am not sure if he can win series or match.

 

[ManFan]

Well it is not about what I like or not. The fact is that majority of the people in the cricket universe consider Kohli to be an ODI ATG already. Yes he has a couple of kinks in his armory, but so does everyone. If he gets that big World Cup or that iconic World Cup knockout innings, he will pretty much become the GOAT.

Kohli has redefined the art of chasing because he is the first of his kind, i.e. a top-order batsman who is also a brilliant finisher. Neither Bevan nor Dhoni, albeit brilliant finishers, batted in the top 3 for a prolonged period of time.

Cricket has seen many great top-order batsmen and many great finishers, but Kohli is the first top-order batsman who consistently finishes off games as well. He is simply the greatest chaser the game has seen. He is like a Tendulkar and Dhoni rolled into one.

Yes Ponting is rated below Tendulkar and Lara, but that doesn't mean he is not an ATG. Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, S. Waugh, Dravid, Kallis, Sangakkara etc. are all ATGs of the last 20 odd years, and not all of them are obviously at the same level.

Kohli is not a ATG in Tests yet so I don't know why you feel the need to bring up his Test record here. As I said in my previous post, the fact that he has surpassed 99% of the ODI batsmen in history before entering his peak years is the reason why he is rated so highly. Apart from Tendulkar, no one in history has been as good as Kohli at the same age.

He is a certified ATG, and is going to be remembered for generations and generations. There is no doubt about that.

Sorry. I agree with Kholi being a great finisher but simply being a #3 and finishing is not innovative or redefining. It simply means he's good enough to last that long. People especially on PP throw the tag ATG around too often. Kallis and Sangakarra are not ATG. Neither has played a tremendous knock or achieved a monumental feat. Statistics aren't everything which is why even though Murali has 800 wickets and Warne only 708 in comparison, most consider Warne an ATG and not Murali ( who has 200 wickets against BD and ZIM ). I mentioned his Test record because you said he is on his way to becoming a legend in that format as well. Therefore, I brought up Clarke because like him, Kholi is going through a purple patch but has not cemented his place among the pantheons of the great in that format. If Kholi wins a World Cup on the back of his performances, than he will end up as an ODI ATG. If not, he will end up like Sangakarra, who despite making 4 consecutive 100's, couldn't win jack.

 

[Buffet]

Sorry. I agree with Kholi being a great finisher but simply being a #3 and finishing is not innovative or redefining. It simply means he's good enough to last that long. People especially on PP throw the tag ATG around too often. Kallis and Sangakarra are not ATG. Neither has played a tremendous knock or achieved a monumental feat. Statistics aren't everything which is why even though Murali has 800 wickets and Warne only 708 in comparison, most consider Warne an ATG and not Murali ( who has 200 wickets against BD and ZIM ). I mentioned his Test record because you said he is on his way to becoming a legend in that format as well. Therefore, I brought up Clarke because like him, Kholi is going through a purple patch but has not cemented his place among the pantheons of the great in that format. If Kholi wins a World Cup on the back of his performances, than he will end up as an ODI ATG. If not, he will end up like Sangakarra, who despite making 4 consecutive 100's, couldn't win jack.

So not only Ponting, but Kallis and Murali are not ATGs as well?

Murali stats are not based on BD or Zim. Excluding BD and Zim, Mulrali has 624 wickets with Avg of 24 and SR of 58. You may not consider him an ATG if you think his action was wrong, but citing minnows bashing is not fair to Murali. He has 50 5-fers and 16 10-fers against non-minnows.

 

[ManFan]

So not only Ponting, but Kallis and Murali are not ATGs as well?

Murali stats are not based on BD or Zim. Excluding BD and Zim, Mulrali has 624 wickets with Avg of 24 and SR of 58. You may not consider him an ATG if you think his action was wrong, but citing minnows bashing is not fair to Murali. He has 50 5-fers and 16 10-fers against non-minnows.

Murali has been cleared multiple times so his action is perfectly legal. Murali has taken 13 more 5-fers than the next best Warne. But has he had the same impact or recognition worldwide? The simple answer is NO.

 

[Buffet]

Murali has been cleared multiple times so his action is perfectly legal. Murali has taken 13 more 5-fers than the next best Warne. But has he had the same impact or recognition worldwide? The simple answer is NO.

Murali playing for SL shouldn't be counted against him. Recognition has a lot to do with hype by media. I consider Murali and Warne in the same class. I saw both of them from the start.

 

[ManFan]

Murali playing for SL shouldn't be counted against him. Recognition has a lot to do with hype by media. I consider Murali and Warne in the same class. I saw both of them from the start.

The SL excuse is poor. Akram is reknowed all over the world for his exploits and he comes from PAK. Both teams really rose during the 90’s on a global stage. You can say that PAK was established during the 80’s but SL has won a World Cup also. Beating THE team, Australia in the final.

 

[kingusama92]

Sorry. I agree with Kholi being a great finisher but simply being a #3 and finishing is not innovative or redefining. It simply means he's good enough to last that long. People especially on PP throw the tag ATG around too often. Kallis and Sangakarra are not ATG. Neither has played a tremendous knock or achieved a monumental feat. Statistics aren't everything which is why even though Murali has 800 wickets and Warne only 708 in comparison, most consider Warne an ATG and not Murali ( who has 200 wickets against BD and ZIM ). I mentioned his Test record because you said he is on his way to becoming a legend in that format as well. Therefore, I brought up Clarke because like him, Kholi is going through a purple patch but has not cemented his place among the pantheons of the great in that format. If Kholi wins a World Cup on the back of his performances, than he will end up as an ODI ATG. If not, he will end up like Sangakarra, who despite making 4 consecutive 100's, couldn't win jack.

Back in the 90s and early 00s, it was often assumed the top order set the game for the finishers. It was the reason they'd bat slow at the top and finish hard at the end.

Kohli has turned that upside down. Even for India.

Just go back and look how the Indians used to structure their innings. They would rely on Yuvraj/Dhoni to do the job while the top order set a platform.

Kohli doesn't promote that idea. His teams let a top order batsman set in and play massive knocks whether it's Rohit Sharma, Dhawan, or himself while the middle order puts in small innings along the way.

 

[ManFan]

Back in the 90s and early 00s, it was often assumed the top order set the game for the finishers. It was the reason they'd bat slow at the top and finish hard at the end.

Kohli has turned that upside down. Even for India.

Just go back and look how the Indians used to structure their innings. They would rely on Yuvraj/Dhoni to do the job while the top order set a platform.

Kohli doesn't promote that idea. His teams let a top order batsman set in and play massive knocks whether it's Rohit Sharma, Dhawan, or himself while the middle order puts in small innings along the way.

Kholi is fantastic to watch. But claims of him being a legend right now are premature.

 

[ManFan]

A top-order batsman like Miandad used to finish matches in the 90’s. Maybe not as consistently as Kholi but a prime example is 92 SF. Obviously Kholi is miles ahead in the shorter format.