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"Virat Kohli at No. 3 shapes more ODI wins than AB de Villiers" : Daryl Cullinan

The problem is that if AB is gone early, the opposition has a huge advantage mentally. You get the opener in the first over and get AB in the next over, then the opposition has physiological advantage. AB waiting in the wings, would probably help the others bat with a bit more freedom on the top of the order.
 
Hawkeye said:
Kohli is a bigger bottler than even Amla in World Cups, and its starting to spread to bilaterals too, where he used to be good specially in India.

Bad bump by freelance.
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Umm no. At least Kohli has two tons vs. Test playing nations, including one against Pakistan which is easily the most high profile non-knockout match of the World Cup.

Amla's two tons have come against Netherlands and Ireland respectively.

Kohli has proved his mettle in other ICC tournaments, Amla has failed in all of them.

No one is a bigger bottler than Amla; he has reached the zenith of bottling.
 
MMHS said:
May be putting a batman with 55/99 stats at 3 'll make the life of Rossuw, Faf, Miller, Dumini at 4, 5, 6 & 7 much easier. I think, AB (or the lap top that is calculating the combination value) has got it wrong - you must play your top players in top 3. I am sure Amla, Coock, AB, Rossuw, Faf, Miller, Dumini will be a much better line up than AB batting at 5/6.
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The champ is here.

Backs against wall...
India fighting to save series and world supremacy in ODIs..

The champ delivers

Brings up 100 with a six.
 
de Villiers once again showing why he cannot be relied upon under pressure.

Cannot win important matches for his country.
 
de Villiers is a choker, along with Amla.

Bilateral heroes though.
 
Kohli is the best out there atm...hard to admit for us Pakistanis but the guy is seriously good. His dedication to his craft is what makes him better than the rest.
 
ABD is a show man but when the heat is on, he is unreliable. Commiserations to all his desi fan girls.
 
Kohli, Root, Williamson, Smith etc. All have more spine than de Villiers.
 
Technically abd is superior.... But cricket isn't all about technicalities alone.

In form Raina is even better than in form abd when there is pressure.
 
Scored more than T20 ATG Gayle in this match. Also, this thread is about ODIs if I'm not mistaken.
 
T20s are formats made for hacks who come and hit 20 runs and win their team a game. ABD is rubbish there.Although In odis, he is the best batsmen in the world and there is no disputes on that. Has excelled everywhere in all situations and conditions in odis.
 
Ab Fan said:
T20s are formats made for hacks who come and hit 20 runs and win their team a game. ABD is rubbish there.Although In odis, he is the best batsmen in the world and there is no disputes on that. Has excelled everywhere in all situations and conditions in odis.
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Not in pressure situation.

He is good only in test and bi lateral limited over matches.
 
Ozymandiasza said:
So you are saying there are no pressure situations in JAMODIs?
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Ofcourse pressure is less. You don't need to face different opponents, you don't need to calculate NRR, other teams results doesn't affect you, you may get kick out for just one lose, you are playing against same players hence formulate better tactics, there is no KO.... and Jamodi s will come and go. No body remembers it.

Perfect platform for players like abd and amla.
 
There could be something other than choker and greater pressure player. :))

ABD is somewhere in the middle of that.

ABD is a lulloo in T20I. Never delivered under pressure in this format (even in IPL).

But has been delivering in ODIs.

The fact that he could do way more in pressure games in ODI but he doesn't (by stupidly getting himself out) makes people think he doesn't perform in ODIs pressure games. That's not true.

Averages 56 in ICC tourneys.
Averages 54 in knockouts.
Played just one 3-4 team tournaments. Averages 107 there.

He doesn't have a lot of iconic innings in ODIs but he does deliver in pressure games. Too bad his team is too lulloo to never make it count.

Recently he made a fine 100 taking SA from a pathetic position to a series win.

Brilliant player in ODI.

Averages 54 with 100+ SR with more runs per game than many top order batsmen.
 
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While talking about pressure situation in ICC tourney, abd fans bring up examples of bi lateral odis and series wins. :facepalm:

Hear it, they are statistical marvel in JAMODIs. No one denies it. Period.

He could but he doesn't.... That excuse can be applied to Umar akmal also. Umar can but stupidly make himself out.... Abd is same in that regards.
 
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Itachi said:
Ofcourse pressure is less. You don't need to face different opponents, you don't need to calculate NRR, other teams results doesn't affect you, you may get kick out for just one lose, you are playing against same players hence formulate better tactics, there is no KO.... and Jamodi s will come and go. No body remembers it.
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So he managed that pressure situation among many just fine, but the pressure was less so it doesn't count? Your exact words were "Abd can't take slightest pressure lol." See what I mean with the narrative changing?
 
And yet ABD averages 56 in knockout games in ICC tournaments whereas a certain other fella averages 24. ;-)

He is a statistical marvel in every way. Not just JAMODIs.
 
Kohli manages to iron out so many flaws which makes him standout from the rest.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
There could be something other than choker and greater pressure player. :))

ABD is somewhere in the middle of that.

ABD is a lulloo in T20I. Never delivered under pressure in this format (even in IPL).

But has been delivering in ODIs.

The fact that he could do way more in pressure games in ODI but he doesn't (by stupidly getting himself out) makes people think he doesn't perform in ODIs pressure games. That's not true.

Averages 56 in ICC tourneys.
Averages 54 in knockouts.
Played just one 3-4 team tournaments. Averages 107 there.

He doesn't have a lot of iconic innings in ODIs but he does deliver in pressure games. Too bad his team is too lulloo to never make it count.

Recently he made a fine 100 taking SA from a pathetic position to a series win.

Brilliant player in ODI.

Averages 54 with 100+ SR with more runs per game than many top order batsmen.
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What do you drag ipl every now and then?
 
24 and 56 isn't wouldn't be a much of a difference had akmal batted at 3. The gap would have been negligible.
 
Itachi said:
While talking about pressure situation in ICC tourney, abd fans bring up examples of bi lateral odis and series wins. :facepalm:

Hear it, they are statistical marvel in JAMODIs. No one denies it. Period.

He could but he doesn't.... That excuse can be applied to Umar akmal also. Umar can but stupidly make himself out.... Abd is same in that regards.
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LOL...ODIs World Cup( the biggest event) he avgs 60+ over 23 games and the greatest clutch players avgs in 40s. This is when ABD played one of his WC in a non batting friendly era. Talk about pressure. LOL..
 
lol...

What a spin now.

24 and 56 not a big difference.

Well.....ABD has more runs per game in knockouts than that other fella who bats at the top of the order.

No one is saying ABD is supreme under pressure. He is NOT regardless of what stats say.

But he ain't any lulloo. He is very very good.

In 7 knockout games,

He has been run out twice.

Not out twice.

Caught twice.

The only thing is that ABD can do EASILY DO 3X better in knockouts which he doesn't so it creates a perception.

He is fine in ODIs. Damn good player.

Absolute Legend.
 
Stating the obvious.

He is at a different level to de Villiers, who is all flash and no substance when it comes to big games.
 
Still true.

Think last night proved once again why it makes no sense for de Villiers to not bat in the top 3.

He is a poor thinker of the game and does not have the intelligence to control the tempo of the match. You are unlikely to win many matches for your team in the middle-order if you do not have the finishing skills.

However, he is a tremendous striker of the ball and his strength lies in attacking the bowlers.

de Kock
de Villiers
Amla
du Plessis

This batting-order can win South Africa more ODIs.

Two dynamic batsmen to give the team a flying start, with an anchor at 3 who can play through the innings and another batsmen at 4, who is not ideal, but perhaps this is his best slot.

Amla holds the team back as an opener and de Villiers cannot finish off games. After years, SA should finally realize now that in spite of their stats, Amla and de Villiers hardly win big matches for their team because of tactical failures.
 
Mamoon said:
Still true.

Think last night proved once again why it makes no sense for de Villiers to not bat in the top 3.

He is a poor thinker of the game and does not have the intelligence to control the tempo of the match. You are unlikely to win many matches for your team in the middle-order if you do not have the finishing skills.

However, he is a tremendous striker of the ball and his strength lies in attacking the bowlers.

de Kock
de Villiers
Amla
du Plessis

This batting-order can win South Africa more ODIs.

Two dynamic batsmen to give the team a flying start, with an anchor at 3 who can play through the innings and another batsmen at 4, who is not ideal, but perhaps this is his best slot.

Amla holds the team back as an opener and de Villiers cannot finish off games. After years, SA should finally realize now that in spite of their stats, Amla and de Villiers hardly win big matches for their team because of tactical failures.
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So then why shouldnt Umar Akmal have batted in the top 3? Not talking about the current Akmal who has regressed technically as well but the Umar Akmal of 2012. We should admit that this was a mistake
 
There is no comparison.

Kohli is the best ODI batsman in the world. It's not close.
 
Its a known fact. Kohli is probably one of the biggest match-winners world has seen.
 
aliasad1998 said:
So then why shouldnt Umar Akmal have batted in the top 3? Not talking about the current Akmal who has regressed technically as well but the Umar Akmal of 2012. We should admit that this was a mistake
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Umar should have been tried as opener in 2010-11 when he was one of the best young batsmen in the world, but now the damage has been done.

Your best batsman always need to bat in the top 3 to give them maximum deliveries and opportunity to shape the game.

This is where we have lagged behind other teams and SA is lagging behind too.

India realized very early in their careers that to get the best out of Tendulkar and Sehwag, they will have to open; Kohli was given the number 3 spot very early in his career as well.

Kohli however is an exception who is such an incredible ODI batsman that he can play in any position. He is an anchor, basher and a finisher. Hard to find a combo like him.

Pakistan tried in vain to find a suitable opener in ODIs for years, but never gave our best ODI batsmen, Inzamam and MoYo an extended run.

This culture needs to change.

Some players cannot build an innings but they can score quick runs to put the opposition on the back-foot; you ask them to open, while you don't open with anchors because they are almost always chasing the run rate.

Not comparing de Villiers and Umar because there is a big difference in class, but at 4/5/6, they will lose you 50-50 equation situations 8/10 times.
 
AB cannot match the match-winning abilities of Kohli.

AB has a big tendency to flop in times of need.He has not performed in any ICC events.A great player but more often than not, he flops in crunch matches.



Sent from my Lenovo A6000 using Tapatalk
 
kingusama92 said:
There is no comparison.

Kohli is the best ODI batsman in the world. It's not close.
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And will probably end up as the greatest.

What sets him apart is not his staggering consistency, but his versatility.

He is an accumulator, a slogger and also a finisher. You can practically use him in any role/position in any situation.

Simply a dream Limited Overs batsman.
 
I agree that AB needs to bat in the top 3, or better open the innings. They have such a quality players through out their ranks, it's really pathetic that they haven't won a single tournament yet.
 
Chrish said:
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...liers-Daryl-Cullinan/articleshow/48400191.cms

CHENNAI: Daryl Cullinan, one of South Africa's notable batsmen in the modern era, has huge admiration for AB de Villiers but feels Virat Kohli is a bigger match-winner in ODIs than the South African captain. He is currently in Chennai on a commentary assignment for the ongoing A tri-series.

In an exclusive interview to TOI, he said he was not too hopeful about South Africa's future.

Excerpts...

How do you see South African cricket's future?

I am not very hopeful. Coaching at the grassroots level sometimes are not the best. Then there is the whole transformation process that is affecting our cricket. Don't get me wrong, it's part of the puzzle, but the push to get black players in also affects the process. On the whole, South Africa is on the decline because excellence is not the criteria these days, opportunity is.

Still, the best batsman in world cricket at the moment is probably a South African - AB de Villiers?

Absolutely. He is a fantastic cricketer and if you take all three formats, it's a fact that he is the best. It's almost a little freakish the way he moves from one format to the other. My only grievance against AB is that he bats a little lower down the order in ODIs. I think that is where Virat Kohli scores over AB.

Do you mean Kohli is more dangerous than AB in limited overs cricket?

It has a lot to do with where Virat bats. He is batting at No, 3 in ODIs, where he is getting more overs to bat. And look at where AB is batting, No. 5, sometimes 6. I think AB's reluctance to come up the order hurt us badly in the World Cup semifinal, where he came in to bat in the 26th over and it turned out to be a 43-over game.

I have been consistently harping on the fact that AB has to come up the order. Virat, on the other hand, is setting up games for India consistently in limited overs cricket. He is batting through the difficult period and getting those runs, so I feel Virat is more prepared to take the pressure of batting at No. 3 than AB.

There's a series coming up between India and South Africa in a month's time...

It will have huge following but if South Africa are to trouble India, they have to do it with pace. No point getting three spinners here, it has to be Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel and the others coming to the party.
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as usual my good man Cullinan is being humble.
Humble words but not true.

Regards
 
Ab is a fine player but kohli is ahead. Can accumulate, hit big, and finish. Kohli will do down as one of the greatest odi batsmen in history
 
Hasan123 said:
Ab is a fine player but kohli is ahead. Can accumulate, hit big, and finish. Kohli will do down as one of the greatest odi batsmen in history
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Ab needed to get a 100 to win this match, he couldn't even get 50. Kohli hasn't been scoring 100s in winning chases either, not since doing so against SL in 2014.
 
Adijazz1706 said:
Ab needed to get a 100 to win this match, he couldn't even get 50. Kohli hasn't been scoring 100s in winning chases either, not since doing so against SL in 2014.
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He has 15+hundreds chasing & like half of them 300+ totals . The only batsmen who comes to his chasing skills is MSD . The guy has nothing left to prove as a Finisher/chaser.
 
Adijazz1706 said:
Ab needed to get a 100 to win this match, he couldn't even get 50. Kohli hasn't been scoring 100s in winning chases either, not since doing so against SL in 2014.
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Kohli has finished plenty of games. Kohli is much reliable than AB in chasing situations. Ab relies on instinct whilst kohli thinks more about the situation and plays too it.
 
jusarrived said:
He has 15+hundreds chasing & like half of them 300+ totals . The only batsmen who comes to his chasing skills is MSD . The guy has nothing left to prove as a Finisher/chaser.
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He's lost it a bit in ODIs recently, as I said only 1 chasing 100 since the 1 against SL in 2014 and that was in a losing cause.
 
Kohli is best batsman while chasing even though he has to improve his record in the world cups he will end as greatest of all time
 
dauntless;8671577[B said:
]Kohli is best batsman while chasing[/B] even though he has to improve his record in the world cups he will end as greatest of all time
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erm no, he is not!

a bunch of chases in t20 matches does not means that he is the best.

Regards
 
Everyone will jump on the Kohli bandwagon since he's in the form of his life and AB is struggling. :mv
 
King Kong said:
From what I remember, India batted 2nd very few times in those two series. Only in 3 matches I think.
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I remember Kohli and Dhoni botching up a couple of chases against SA at home.

WC too Kohli was not in form and didn't do much in chasing against WI, Zim and Aus where he was needed.

He will bounce back cos now he is back in form.

Did well in Aus 2016 chasing a game if I am not wrong. But sadly got out and India collapsed.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I remember Kohli and Dhoni botching up a couple of chases against SA at home.

WC too Kohli was not in form and didn't do much in chasing against WI, Zim and Aus where he was needed.

He will bounce back cos now he is back in form.

Did well in Aus 2016 chasing a game if I am not wrong. But sadly got out and India collapsed.
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We should have won that ODI series against SA at home. The first and third ODIs were ours for taking and how can I forget that notorious collapse by India in 4th ODI against Australia. That still hurts me. 3-2 defeat sounds much better than 4-1. Yes, Kohli did score a hundred while chasing in that match. So Kohli's last century while chasing was not back in 2014 contrary to the poster above.
 
King Kong said:
From what I remember, India batted 2nd very few times in those two series. Only in 3 matches I think.
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They hardly chased against Australia can't remember the South African series apart from that game were south Africa made over 400
 
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Both de Villiers and Amla are amongst the first names if we compile the most overrated ODI XI of all time.
 
MMHS said:
Sometimes, I feel these South Africans over analyze the game & often gets caught off guard in crunch moments. For a batsman of AB's caliber should always bat at 3, if not opener. What 'll happen - he 'll struggle for few matches but then definitely 'll adjust his game. SAF is very good ODI side - where ever AB bats, they 'll win lots of easy encounters, but they 'll keep struggling in mental battles & I believe AB at 3 'll serve them much better in crunch matches.
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I don't think AB doubts his ability to play the new ball. He wants to finish games. He is the only one in the team that can stop the fall of wickets and also accelerate if needed. Obviously he can't succeed in every game. One look at his stats should tell you that he's been spectacular. All he needs to do is win a major tournament for SA but then it's a bogey for his team and not just his baggage.
 
Kohli very well may end up becoming ODI numero uno
 
Mamoon said:
Both de Villiers and Amla are amongst the first names if we compile the most overrated ODI XI of all time.
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tbh Amla did alright by setting the ground.. It's lower middle order that blew it
 
In South Africa's last ODI series in England, England won 2 games and SA won 2 games, and ABDV made a ton in the last ODI to clutch the series win. In that game, I seem to remember the top 4 or 5 batsmen failing above him.

Yeah, all of SA take choking to cartoonish levels, but ABDV does battle hard at times in key games.
 
Mamoon said:
Stating the obvious.

He is at a different level to de Villiers, who is all flash and no substance when it comes to big games.
Click to expand...

Ya i stillwatch Kohli's breath taking hundred in the semi final and final of the last WC on youtube. No better player ever existed.
 
Mamoon said:
Still true.

Think last night proved once again why it makes no sense for de Villiers to not bat in the top 3.

He is a poor thinker of the game and does not have the intelligence to control the tempo of the match. You are unlikely to win many matches for your team in the middle-order if you do not have the finishing skills.

However, he is a tremendous striker of the ball and his strength lies in attacking the bowlers.

de Kock
de Villiers
Amla
du Plessis

This batting-order can win South Africa more ODIs.

Two dynamic batsmen to give the team a flying start, with an anchor at 3 who can play through the innings and another batsmen at 4, who is not ideal, but perhaps this is his best slot.

Amla holds the team back as an opener and de Villiers cannot finish off games. After years, SA should finally realize now that in spite of their stats, Amla and de Villiers hardly win big matches for their team because of tactical failures.
Click to expand...

It is true for Sachinsnd Ponting as well. They never win big matches for their team.
 
jusarrived said:
He has 15+hundreds chasing & like half of them 300+ totals . The only batsmen who comes to his chasing skills is MSD . The guy has nothing left to prove as a Finisher/chaser.
Click to expand...
He cant set up a total. That is equally important as chasing.
 
AB could bat up the order if they have M Hussey or dhoni or Symonds down the order. Kohli is lucky that he has a good ODI team so he could go one down. He could accumulate without worrying about run rate, knowing there is still enough fire power in the lower middle order to resurrect his team if ge gets out. AB is not as lucky. SA relies too much on AB and their tail starts after AB so it doesnt make sense to move him up. AB is gone, their chances are gone.
 
de Villiers shapes another win in a must win game while chasing a big total, with a fantastic 2 of 10 deliveries.

Now the question is, can Behardien and Duminy etc. ruin his match-winning effort and lose the game for South Africa from here?

Once again showing why he is the best ODI batsman since Sir Vivian Richards with such displays of tough runs under pressure.
 
I don't now why people rate AB soo much

Yes title said all when its matters he never comes good but when it's not matters he hit everywhere
 
Mamoon said:
de Villiers shapes another win in a must win game while chasing a big total, with a fantastic 2 of 10 deliveries.

Now the question is, can Behardien and Duminy etc. ruin his match-winning effort and lose the game for South Africa from here?

Once again showing why he is the best ODI batsman since Sir Vivian Richards with such displays of tough runs under pressure.
Click to expand...

Oh no..

Now sivaji will come and shout how Sachin and Ponting were trashy players when compared to AB "the best since Viv" (better than Viv for some of his fans) and the clutch player Amla:ab:amla
 
AB hits quicker hundreds, while Kohli wins matches. Both amazing qualities, but from a team-perspective, Kohli is more crucial.
 
Zak_Fan said:
AB hits quicker hundreds, while Kohli wins matches. Both amazing qualities, but from a team-perspective, Kohli is more crucial.
Click to expand...

AB is more talented with the bat in the sense he has a wider array of shots and is more versatile, and while Kohli may not have the fireworks and blockbuster style batting, he shows better application.

Basically one looks flashy but doesn't give results. The other is not as flashy but wins games. Latter over former any day of the week...
 
I am afraid, it's become very easy to call out which situations will lead to abv failing. What is it about some of these South African greats. They have fantastic numbers whichever way you look at it (eg Kallis) but come the big moments, they find ways to miss out. There is a reason for all the missing silverware.
 
AB is super over rated.

He'll finish behind the likes of Viv, Kohil, Dhoni, Sachin, Ponting, Smith, KW and Root when all of them are done.
 
Aman said:
AB is super over rated.

He'll finish behind the likes of Viv, Kohil, Dhoni, Sachin, Ponting, Smith, KW and Root when all of them are done.
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No doubt he's the most overrated batsman of all time, but I'm not sure if Williamson will finish ahead of him in Limited Overs.

So far he seems like an Amla clone. Has great stats but doesn't influence the outcome of the match.

Brilliant Test player though, will finish above de Villiers in this format.
 
Mamoon said:
No doubt he's the most overrated batsman of all time, but I'm not sure if Williamson will finish ahead of him in Limited Overs.

So far he seems like an Amla clone. Has great stats but doesn't influence the outcome of the match.

Brilliant Test player though, will finish above de Villiers in this format.
Click to expand...
KW is better under pressure, he'll score plenty of clutch runs for NZ. He's bound to finish a few WC's in the top 2-3 leading run scorers too.
 
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